[HN Gopher] Heroic Rat Retiring from Detecting Land Mines
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Heroic Rat Retiring from Detecting Land Mines
Author : packet_nerd
Score : 86 points
Date : 2021-06-04 18:08 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| nestorD wrote:
| APOPO (the association behind this initiative) lets you "adopt" a
| rat: in exchange for money they give you regular information on
| what and how it is doing.
|
| This sounded like a great gift so I did that for a friend but,
| sadly, passed the "thank you for adopting your rat, here are some
| information about him", he received no more information.
| rchaud wrote:
| The "Sponsor a ____" is a marketing tactic, the end result is
| the same as setting up a regular monthly donation, it all goes
| into the same pot, unless it's marked for a specific cause or
| appeal.
|
| However, there is a way to do this right. I donate to the
| Sheldrick Wildlife Trust, an elephant conservation region in
| Kenya. You can sponsor an orphan baby elephant, and they send
| you monthly updates on the elephant's growth, role in the herd
| (Bull, matriarch, mini-matriarch, etc), and you can follow
| their progress as they are rehabilitated and released into the
| wild.
|
| If you just take the money and run, that sours people on giving
| monthly.
| rchaud wrote:
| The article made absolutely no mention of how or why those land
| mines got there in the first place. Considering that they exist
| in such quantities that they are still being cleared up 40+ years
| after the end of the Vietnam war, it should have at least had a
| link to a story with more detail.
| stickfigure wrote:
| Which Vietnam war? You have several to choose from:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indochina_Wars
|
| The Cambodian-Vietnamese War ended in 1989, so the mines are
| possibly not that old.
| zaybqp wrote:
| Most of the unexploded ordinances in this country were
| dropped from big planes. Think clustered munitions and such.
| Those big planes came from a far away land.
| Vaslo wrote:
| Source?
| bugbuddy wrote:
| The still-incomplete database (it has several "dark"
| periods) reveals that from October 4, 1965, to August 15,
| 1973, the United States dropped far more ordnance on
| Cambodia than was previously believed: 2,756,941 tons'
| worth, dropped in 230,516 sorties on 113,716 sites.
|
| US Air Force bombers like this B-52, shown releasing its
| payload over Vietnam, helped make Cambodia one of the
| most heavily bombed countries in history -- perhaps the
| most heavily bombed.
|
| To put 2,756,941 tons into perspective, the Allies
| dropped just over 2 million tons of bombs during all of
| World War II. Cambodia may be the most heavily bombed
| country in history.
|
| https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/walrus_cambodiab
| omb...
| botwriter wrote:
| Depends what part of Cambodia,
|
| the last remaining strongholds of the Khmer rouge were heavily
| mined, or could be on the vietnam/cambodian border.
| whymauri wrote:
| After working with rats for two years I came to the conclusion
| that they're basically cats that drew the shortest end of the
| cute stick. They more intelligent than people think and they have
| about the same variance in personality as traditional pets like
| cats/dogs.
| rchaud wrote:
| Cats live much longer than rats however.
| whymauri wrote:
| Yeah, rat cancer is no joke.
| detaro wrote:
| but rats _are_ really cute. You just don 't get to see a nicely
| cared for one all that often compared to cats.
| whymauri wrote:
| I agree when they're well-groomed and not cranky they're very
| cute. They love to purr if you scoop them, lol.
| MivLives wrote:
| If only they lived longer.
| jsw97 wrote:
| "We really trust our rats, because very often after clearing a
| minefield, our teams will play a game of soccer on the cleared
| field to assure the quality of our work," he said.
| viktorcode wrote:
| As a side note, biologically this is not a rat, but a pouched
| mouse.
|
| Still, as a rat dad this makes me feel happy. Another example as
| animals help to unfuck human errors
| pvaldes wrote:
| Finally somebody noticed this. This is not a lab rat. Is a
| tropical rainforest species of pouched rat. Much bigger and
| totally different creatures in many aspects. Is like calling
| rabbit to a hare, or bison to a cow.
|
| Walking around and exploring until finding food is not "forced
| labor", is what rodents do all the time in the wild. They are
| inquisitive mammals by nature. I'm 100% sure that the rat enjoy
| finding mines (= fruit) in the same way as we enjoy hitting
| bricks in supermario games. Not to mention being safe from
| predators at night, the veterinary healthcare services, being
| cleaned from nasty parasites, the food, water and the human
| company in an animal that is more or less social by nature. It
| seems a very good deal for the animal.
|
| Trying to claim "animal cruelty!" here is a total nonsense.
| motohagiography wrote:
| Makes you wonder whether you could train birds by burying peanuts
| over fake mines and then look for where they are scratching for
| them.
|
| Less intelligent birds are best, because smarter birds like crows
| would only scratch at some of the mines to attract people
| intending to dispose of them, only to watch them trigger buried
| ones in their path. It's something a cat would do as well.
| lovemenot wrote:
| You need to have confidence that a piece of land is cleared. If
| a trained bird does not scratch a surface, does it give you
| enough confidence to play football on it?
| beebmam wrote:
| What a great example of how language can be used to obscure
| reality. This rat has no concept of the harm that may come to
| them when performing this job that has been forced upon them.
|
| Now one might say: "This rat enjoys this work!". One cannot make
| that claim without: 1. The rat having informed consent about what
| this work entails (not possible, given a rat's limited ability to
| understand what land mines are) 2. In good faith, the rat having
| been given many alternatives as to what it wishes to do, without
| coercion
|
| At its core, I see this as necessary work, whether it is
| automated by machines or performed by humans or non-human
| animals.
|
| But let's at least be clear what's happening here and not sugar
| coat it: this is forced/coerced labor, there's nothing heroic
| about it given that the rat has no idea what might happen to
| them, and it's not a 'retirement' (this rat didn't wake up and
| say, I'm going to retire today!), it's that the rat's handlers
| have decided to no longer force/coerce this animal to work.
| jopsen wrote:
| You make a good valid point.. that being being said... Free
| food for life in exchange for sniffing out 71 landmines that
| I'm too lightweight to trigger...
|
| If I was a rat, I would take that deal... considering that the
| alternative is, well, being an actual rat :)
|
| Yeah, sure, we didn't ask for consent, but I'll confess my
| hamburger probably didn't consent either -- though I think we
| only have get consent if we serve cookies :)
|
| (Bad jokes may be present)
| treeman79 wrote:
| Had a rat that loved packing peanuts. One night he found a
| stash and kept grabbing them. After taking away the fourth
| one, he ran up my arm and stared me straight in the eye for
| about 30 seconds. He then proceeded to grab one and move the
| further away. I'm quite sure I got chewed out by a rat.
| vidanay wrote:
| ---
| uhtred wrote:
| Can you link to any evidence that rats simply exist and don't
| understand the concept of options?
| uses wrote:
| The rats aren't in danger though...that's the whole point.
|
| > Though they have terrible eyesight, the rats are ideal for
| such work, with their extraordinary sense of smell and their
| size - they are too light to trigger the mines. When they
| detect a mine, they lightly scratch atop it, signaling to their
| handler what they've found.
| dTal wrote:
| Well written. This was my thought as well.
|
| "Heroic" language is also deployed to distract from the
| exploitation of humans financially coerced into doing dangerous
| or stressful jobs. The clearest example I can think of is the
| public glorying, on certain types of public holiday, in the
| "heroic sacrifice" of all the soldiers who were marched
| pointlessly into machine gun fire in WW1.
| whymauri wrote:
| Love this analysis. It reminds me of Maggie Mae's breakdown of
| My Octopus Teacher as eco-horror film -- it ends up exploring
| the same themes around language and communication that you
| brought up here. [0]
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44
|
| Specific time stamp for section on language (Gorillas in the
| Congo): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44&t=1016s
| hyperion2010 wrote:
| The even deeper horror is that they explored many alternate
| narratives, and this is the one that they collectively though
| would, and in reality did, resonate most strongly with
| viewers.
|
| The horror isn't the film makers, it is that this is the
| narrative that global society prefers to hear.
|
| For even deeper horror still I suggest reading Francis Bacon,
| since from square zero modern science is founded on the rape
| of nature.
| [deleted]
| wesleywt wrote:
| The article was not written for rats but for humans who love to
| anthropomorphize. So you comment is moot.
| summm wrote:
| That's no different to people keeping dogs as pets. They are
| exploiting pack behaviour, without really asking those animals.
| lostlogin wrote:
| I'd prefer he stayed and keep him fenced, but he could leave
| within 20 seconds if he wanted to.
| scotty79 wrote:
| I think it's very apt that they use military language when
| talking about this rat.
|
| Same language was used to describe heroic soldiers wanting to
| save lives with exactly the same disregard of what actual
| enlisted humans think and feel.
| slver wrote:
| OK, well, if we start dissecting our human acts the same way,
| we'd literally end society. Most people are coerced into their
| jobs, due to society taking away their means of alternate
| survival, and job availability.
| gcheong wrote:
| Societies should exist for the benefit of the people living
| in them. If aspects of it do not serve the people living in
| them well then they should be abolished.
| slver wrote:
| That doesn't really mean anything. Society benefits some,
| is to the detriment of others, and for most it's a mixed
| bag.
| gcheong wrote:
| I said _should_ and, if you haven 't noticed, the things
| people have often fought hardest for are changes to
| society that increase benefits to the people living in
| them that don't currently enjoy such benefits.
| [deleted]
| slver wrote:
| The fact people have fought about things doesn't tell us
| much either. Did they get what they fought about. Or not.
| Typically not. Also is fighting to get more "society"? It
| happens even without society. So it's not an example of
| society.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| I agree that it's not heroic since the rat has no real
| conception of what it's doing. I was curious after reading your
| comment what the mortality rate among mine detecting rats was.
|
| This organization says that none of their rats have ever died
| as a result of their detection work. As I understand it the
| rats are too light to detonate the mines. Their role is just to
| detect them and they don't have to worry about accidental
| detonation.
|
| That makes sense if you think about it. If these mines were the
| kind of thing that could be detonated by a curious rodent, they
| probably wouldn't have lasted so long in rural areas.
|
| That's another reason not to call the rats heroic. There is no
| real hardship for them in this work. They explore and smell and
| get a reward when they find something. I'd bet it may be better
| than a wild life, though a moral ideal might be letting the
| rats choose to work or not. (I wouldn't suggest actually doing
| that, since I think the forced labor of rats is a small price
| to pay to save human lives, but ideally the rats would be
| employees rather than slaves)
|
| https://www.apopo.org/en/herorats/faqs
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| > 1. The rat having informed consent about what this work
| entails (not possible, given a rat's limited ability to
| understand what land mines are)
|
| You can totally enjoy something while being ignorant to aspects
| of the task
|
| > 2. In good faith, the rat having been given many alternatives
| as to what it wishes to do, without coercion
|
| You can enjoy doing a task, while still enjoying something else
| more.
|
| Sounds to me like this rat had a pretty good time eating
| bananas.
| vidanay wrote:
| ---
| nicoburns wrote:
| You have no idea what it's like to be a rat, and no basis
| by which to make this claim. Given that they are
| intelligent mammals closely related to humans and with
| similar brain structures, it seems plausible, even likely,
| that they experience emotions thst are similar (if not
| entirely the same) as ours.
|
| Humans are driven by food and reproduction too, but that
| doesn't mean we don't also experience a wide range of
| complex emotions.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Rats enjoy and seek out tickling.
|
| https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/rats-
| tick...
|
| > Panksepp and Burgdorf showed that the animals remembered
| areas in their enclosures where they had been tickled
| before and routinely returned to those sites.
|
| > And in the current study, rats were observed performing
| something called Freudensprunge, or "joy jumps," after
| tickling.
|
| They can also apparently feel regret:
|
| https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rats-
| experience-f...
|
| > Rats showed both a behavioral sign of regret (turning and
| looking at the missed high-value reward) and were then more
| willing to wait for a reward following regret-inducing
| instances, indicating that they learned from their mistake.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Ah typical old school scientific Nonsense. Similar to old
| theories that babies don't feel pain.
|
| Spend a significant amount of time around animals and you
| will see a lot beyond the more base rutting instincts.
| zaybqp wrote:
| Why do you have to be so negative? This rat is not at any risk
| of harm because it is too small to trigger the mines. I would
| say this rat has been and will continue to be very well taken
| care of. It is also wholesome that people celebrate its
| "retirement" and appreciate its accomplishments. Your criticism
| is off base and rabid.
| jaas wrote:
| I think this story about the rat and what it did is cool, it
| makes me happy, but I do agree with OP that the language of
| the story misrepresents the reality of the situation.
|
| If I was given total control over your life and made you work
| for me, would you be ok with that so long as, according to
| me, I treated you well enough? I doubt it.
|
| That isn't the point though. This is not a debate about
| whether anyone thinks the rat is being treated well.
|
| The rat did not consent to this (because it can't), so this
| is, factually, forced labor. I am ok with it in this
| situation, but let's call it what it is and express gratitude
| for what the rat did to clean up human messes.
|
| Second, you can't do something heroically if you either 1)
| don't know what you are doing and what the risks are or 2)
| there are no risks. Take your pick, but either way it isn't
| heroic. The rat did a great thing for us but hero is not the
| right word.
| bugbuddy wrote:
| You seem to be suggesting that working animals are forced
| labor. Does that include all the working dogs such as
| police, rescue, military, and comfort dogs?
|
| The opposite of heroic is cowardly and it perfectly
| describes people that try to silence opposing opinions.
| zaybqp wrote:
| I am not debating anyone. I just pointed out an invalid and
| unreasonably negative criticism for what is a feel-good
| news story.
|
| Back to your point. Do we ask for consent from working
| dogs? Have you ever seen news about "heroic" rescue dogs?
| What is your point really? Is it that we need to stop
| employing animals? Do we need to stop using anthropomorphic
| terms? Do we need to establish a ministry of truth and
| speech to regulate that?
|
| To quote Zoolander, I feel like I am taking crazy pills
| responding to these comments.
| crooked-v wrote:
| > The rat did not consent to this (because it can't), so
| this is, factually, forced labor.
|
| On the other hand, anyone who's owned an uncooperative dog
| will know that it's nigh-impossible to effectively train an
| animal who just doesn't feel like playing along.
| celticninja wrote:
| And also a dog will do what you ask it because you ask it
| and it wants too help you. My husky used to pull me on my
| bike. He knew when I got the bike and lead out that was
| what was happening and he wanted to do it. He certainly
| did not think that he had to do it and could easily have
| refused to let me put the harness on.
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| > If I was given total control over your life and made you
| work for me, would you be ok with that so long as,
| according to me, I treated you well enough? I doubt it.
|
| By definition, if you treat me well "enough", I'm already
| satisfied. That's a silly proposition.
| lovemenot wrote:
| You might be missing the unspoken alternative. You will
| be treated well, as long as you do my bidding. Otherwise
| all bets are off.
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| If your bidding isn't pleasant enough to keep me happy
| then you're not treating me well enough. The constraint,
| as defined, is on the master.
| lovemenot wrote:
| You have made a tautology. It's moot. Coercion isn't all
| about carrots.
| jaas wrote:
| I think you are missing the "according to me" (the person
| you are working for) part of the sentence.
|
| In this thought experiment, like the rat, you have no say
| in what constitutes being treated "well enough."
| zaybqp wrote:
| Why is my reply getting flagged? Nothing in my comment
| breaks any rule. This was my reply that got flagged:
|
| I am not debating anyone. I just pointed out an invalid and
| unreasonably negative criticism for what is a feel-good
| news story.
|
| Back to your point. Do we ask for consent from working
| dogs? Have you ever seen news about "heroic" rescue dogs?
| What is your point really? Is it that we need to stop
| employing animals? Do we need to stop using anthropomorphic
| terms? Do we need to establish a ministry of truth and
| speech to regulate that?
| dundarious wrote:
| I'm vegan and think treating animals as tools is unethical,
| but I somewhat agree, how is this different from the
| treatment of any beast of burden, or god forbid, livestock?
| It seems so condescending to criticize people in less
| technologically advanced countries for using beasts of burden
| or livestock.
|
| I'm not trying to shut down abstract debate or discussion on
| the issue of animal welfare/rights/liberation, but I do
| perceive a lack of context leading to condescending criticism
| of others living in tough circumstances where they literally
| can't trust the ground they stand on to not suddenly kill
| them.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Not GP, but for me it's a matter of striving to reason
| clearly and correctly. I try to avoid slipping into pleasant
| error on _any_ topic, because I don 't want mental habits
| that let me do that with _important_ topics.
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