[HN Gopher] Starlink dishes go into "thermal shutdown" once they...
___________________________________________________________________
Starlink dishes go into "thermal shutdown" once they hit 122deg
Fahrenheit
Author : lakis
Score : 16 points
Date : 2021-06-16 08:03 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| bostonsre wrote:
| They should probably sell white painted versions for warmer
| climates.
| tpmx wrote:
| The enclosure is made of some kind of white plastic. But the
| consumer units also consume ~100W evenly spread out just below
| the flat plastic surface. So many (expensive) chips needed to
| do that phased array antenna thing.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-starlink-terminal-cos...
|
| _SpaceX signed an agreement a few years ago with Swiss
| manufacturer STMicroelectronics to build the terminals, a
| person with knowledge of the deal told Insider in December.
| They added that SpaceX may be paying $2.4 billion to produce 1
| million Starlink terminals._
|
| At least it will melt any snow/ice during winter time in
| northern climates.
|
| Comment: ST is primarily French-Italian, with a HQ in
| Switzerland. I wouldn't call it Swiss.
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| Parting Shot: "To all beta testers using Starlink this summer,
| better come up with a dish heat management system or else face no
| connectivity. Not surprising, considering this is a company owned
| by Elon Musk."
| BuyMyBitcoins wrote:
| Well it is a beta test after all. This is when the design gets
| a real life shakedown.
| southerntofu wrote:
| I agree with you in general, but despite my not being a
| rocket scientist, i know for sure 50degC is not an OK limit
| for outdoor stuff on many parts of the planet. It's like
| Outdoors Electronics 101 so not exactly something to test for
| in a beta.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Forget beta. Apple's _production_ iPhones go into thermal
| shutdown several times a year for me where I live. Most
| recently, yesterday.
|
| You can tell it's getting close because the screen will dim.
|
| The tech bubble has never understood that the rest of the
| planet doesn't have the same weather as San Francisco.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _The tech bubble has never understood that the rest of
| the planet doesn 't have the same weather as San
| Francisco._
|
| Two things: first, Apple is headquartered in Cupertino,
| which gets quite a bit warmer than San Francisco. Second,
| I've seen phones overheat and shut down in the summer in
| SF. This isn't a bubble thing; this is a company
| prioritizing miniaturization over proper functioning. Form
| over function.
| toss1 wrote:
| Yup, it's always incredible to see how myopic tge tech
| bubble is - starting with software that couldn't handle
| East Coast US 5-digit ZIP (postal) codes that begin with
| "0". Google Maps never shows the highway exit # until
| you're nearly there, but that's all we use on the East
| Coast, since there are many old roads that run parallel to
| the highways for many miles, so telling me to "get off at
| Rt110" is hopelessly ambiguous with a dozen exits for that
| road. I could go on...
| sixothree wrote:
| Does google maps still not know where subway entrances
| are?
| kelnos wrote:
| I have the opposite issue; Google will tell me the exit
| number on highways that don't have exit numbers posted.
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| Bananaware. Reaches customer's premises in an unusable state.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| For a product intended to be used by people in remote
| locations, temperature range is an _alpha test_ feature, not
| a beta test feature, because there 's a very good chance they
| will need to completely redesign the dish internals to
| operate at higher temperature ranges, especially if they
| expect to weatherproof the dishes in future designs.
|
| the design process is _different_ for hardware because you
| can 't just fix everything with a patch after-the-fact. You
| have to actually _anticipate_ problems and account for them
| in your design, especially when you are charging people money
| for the product and marketing it as a remote solution.
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| It's a bit weird though to not test these at different
| temperatures beforehand, given that's probably pretty easy to
| do. Maybe it's more like an alpha test than a beta in
| practice.
| josefresco wrote:
| A line like this (and Reddit sources) makes me question the
| authenticity of this story.
| rconti wrote:
| I mean, it is Zero Hedge.
| quanticle wrote:
| The Ars Technica version of this story [1] has more detail.
| The tl;dr is that Starlink dishes have an upper limit of
| 50degC and a lower limit of -30degC. While these limits are
| fine for consumer electronics used indoors, they're obviously
| inappropriate for outdoor electronics.
|
| [1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-
| technology/2021/06/starl...
| gpm wrote:
| > they're obviously inappropriate
|
| They're unfortunately constraints, but for 95% of people
| they're workable constraints. If there are difficult
| problems with bumping these limits (I have no clue), it
| could just become part of the market definition.
| mcguire wrote:
| 95% of which group of people?
| gpm wrote:
| Otherwise potential starlink customers.
|
| Like most stats, it is made up.
| quanticle wrote:
| Only if you're counting people who live in San Francisco
| and other similarly temperate climates.
|
| I live in Minnesota. Last week, the high temperature, in
| the shade, was about 40degC. A device in the sun would
| easily see its temperature exceed 50degC. In the winter,
| overnight lows can go to -40degC. An outdoor device with
| thermal limits of -30degC to +50degC is not fit for
| purpose in many parts of the Midwest.
| gpm wrote:
| I'm in Toronto incidentally, not sf.
|
| I suspect overnight lows of -40 are ok, because it sounds
| like it's -30 after the self heating.
|
| There are definitely reports of people having it work
| through 40 degree heat waves, but I suspect that's close
| to the limit. Keep in mind it is white, so the sun isn't
| as bad as it could be.
|
| I don't have stats to back this up, but I think it's the
| case that most people live in reasonably temperate
| climates, 50 degrees is really frickin hot (dangerously
| so), -30 degrees is really frickin cold (dangerously so).
| quanticle wrote:
| Agreed that 50degC is really hot, but you have to
| remember that 50degC includes the ambient heat _plus_ the
| heat generated by the circuitry. My cable modem gets
| noticeably warm (and I can hear its internal fan spin up)
| when I download a large file that saturates my connection
| for a while. I could easily see the internal circuitry of
| the Starlink dish going over 50degC under load even when
| external temperature is 40degC.
|
| From what I'm reading, it looks like the dish is
| passively cooled, which I find surprising. I would have
| expected at least a small cooling fan or something to
| provide a bit of airflow for convective cooling.
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| Large tracts of the US have a continental climate, where
| temperature excursions are common. Remember that Starlink
| is marketed at people living in the flat countryside.
| draklor40 wrote:
| Zerohedge is severely anti-Elon Biased. He might be at fault
| for many things, but this is just a first gen product that
| hopefully improves in the next generations.
| hulitu wrote:
| 122 F seems to be 50 degC. Are those things designed for space or
| for home office ?
| postalrat wrote:
| Neither. They are designed to sit outdoors with a clear view of
| the sky (and the sun I guess).
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| Sort of funny that the solution for streaming is to literally
| turn on a stream of water.
|
| On a separate note, even if you don't live in Arizona, a litmus
| test for good engineering is whether or not you see reviews of a
| product melting in Arizona. Yeah, melt. Literally.
|
| Phoenix is the fifth largest city in the US. If it doesn't work
| here, it's not mass market.
| foobiekr wrote:
| Networking vendors who know what they're doing literally put
| gear into ovens for extended periods as part of the DVT phase
| of testing, and put outdoor gear like cellular antennas/ptp
| wireless/ptp optical into stress environments prior to
| manufacturing. This again seems like the typical Musk venture,
| like the Tesla non-automative screens, where they didn't
| seemingly talk to anyone in the industry.
| ethanbond wrote:
| A good litmus test for good city location is whether or not
| melting objects/burns from touching objects is a daily concern
| gspr wrote:
| Yeah, I agree: the bug here is humans building giant cities
| in the desert.
| mcguire wrote:
| Like southern California?
| AJ007 wrote:
| A lot more than the southern part.
| [deleted]
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| Hahaha... yeah that's probably a bigger concern.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| I'm always surprised how poor engineering gets exposed in
| products I purchase being an Arizona resident.
|
| No, failing at 122F is not acceptable. If your hardware is
| exposed to outside conditions, it should operate easily below
| 32F, and we'll above 140F.
|
| Considering that phones can operate below 0F and near 122F,
| that's embarrassingly bad.
|
| Same thing in vehicles. If you're driving consistently at
| interstate speeds, you should be able to cool a cabin down below
| 72F while driving through 120F weather. Too many vehicles fail
| this, and frankly it's repulsive for something you buy for 5-6
| figures.
| trixie_ wrote:
| All the comments on the article are really extremist. So I looked
| up Zerohedge and found it 'is a far-right libertarian financial
| blog' and 'is bearish in its investment outlook and analysis' ..
| so I guess that makes sense.
|
| Not sure why anyone would be bearish of a beta product that is
| only just scratching the surface of its potential.
| kemonocode wrote:
| It may be a libertarian rag, but the article is just about what
| it says on the title: thermal shutdown hitting Starlink users.
|
| In fact, I had tried to submit an article coming from Ars
| Technica [0] but I deleted it as I saw it gaining no traction
| and I noticed this one had a sizable amount of upvotes and
| comments already.
|
| [0] https://arstechnica.com/information-
| technology/2021/06/starl...
| gonesilent wrote:
| Didn't knock my unit off in 110deg heat Red bluff California.
| rhacker wrote:
| Hello from 15 minutes to the south in Corning.
| spuz wrote:
| This sounds like the perfect opportunity for Linus from Linus
| Tech Tips to show us how to watercool a Starlink dish.
| newacct583 wrote:
| Per the article, it's already been tested and works. Just throw
| a sprinkler on the thing.
|
| Clearly, though, the tolerances weren't chosen correctly when
| they designed the thing. 122F isn't actually that hot for a
| device designed to sit stationary in the sun all day.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| At least they made it white, dishtv's, and others I'm sure,
| antennas are black.
| endymi0n wrote:
| ...is it called streaming then?
| mariushn wrote:
| Hope the fix for this will be Elon tackling climate change :)
| mrlonglong wrote:
| Fit them with fans to keep them cool. Simples.
| cgb223 wrote:
| Weird to see a ZeroHedge article a) on Hacker News and b) even
| talking about StarLink at all
| api wrote:
| So apparently one of the downsides of Starlink is that the base
| station is an energy pig. Doesn't surprise me all that much in
| retrospect but I didn't think of it when I first heard about it.
| trixie_ wrote:
| How much energy does it use?
| slownews45 wrote:
| 110W peak usage.
|
| I've seen wifi hotspots use this much and they don't have to
| connect to space.
|
| Is this really "energy pig" level of usage for space based
| communications? My former experience was with gimbled / gyro
| pointing dishes which were very energy intensive by
| comparison. 100W and little physical movement would have been
| considered very efficiant.
|
| How do other space com platforms handle deployment / install
| of end user terminals. I've not seen ones with the spaceX
| approach (simple end user install). Perhaps the professional
| installs get the energy use down to 10W or whatever is not
| considered "energy pig" usage.
|
| As a point of reference, tesla's cars hit energy draws of
| 900,000W when driving. Their semi is likely to use even more.
| So I think worth being careful about energy pig label.
| mcguire wrote:
| Hughes Gen5 HT2000W .98m 1-watt Satellite Internet System
| (https://ispsat.com/product/hughesnet-
| gen5-ht2000w-98m-1-watt...) has a 73W power supply. Normal
| use seems to be about 40W
| (https://community.hughesnet.com/t5/Products-and-
| Plans/Gen5-H...).
|
| 900,000W? Wow, that's about 1200HP.
| southerntofu wrote:
| According to international standards, your wifi antennas
| should have a maximum of 0.1/0.2W power (up to 4W for some
| specific 5Ghz frequencies). Wifi router hardware is really
| basic, you need something as powerful as a computer from
| the late 90s... which on todays hardware runs on a few
| watts. Something like a rpi is really beefy for a home
| router.
|
| So 100W may not be a big deal if you have an abundance of
| electricity around. But on the order of energy you can
| produce yourself, it's quite a lot.
| smachiz wrote:
| No wifi hotspot is using 110 watts.
|
| 110 watts is a fair amount of power - at $0.20/kWh you're
| going to add $16 to your power bill monthly.
|
| It's similar to leaving a desktop computer on 24/7.
| slownews45 wrote:
| My Netgear R8500 was 50 watts easily I'd say. My friends
| gaming computer DEFINATELY uses more than 100W. Basic
| computer use for cryptomining seems to use a lot more as
| well. It just doesn't seem like 100W for what this thing
| does is a ton.
| rconti wrote:
| > Under load, the Netgear R8500 uses 21.5 Watts of power
| making it the most consumptive router we have tested [1]
|
| Of course a gaming computer uses more than 100w. Of
| course a crypto rig uses more than 100w. And that's not
| "basic computer use", it's the most power-hungry computer
| use.
|
| Meanwhile, my UniFi UAP-AC-Pro APs are powered via PoE
| and are using <4w.
|
| 1: https://www.legitreviews.com/netgear-
| nighthawk-x8-r8500-ac53...
| brigade wrote:
| More like 50 watts max, and 20 watts under normal load.
| The power supply can't even provide more than 60W. And
| gaming computers are more like 2-5W suspended, 20-50W
| idle/browsing, 200-500W gaming.
| mcguire wrote:
| Exactly.
|
| https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/R8500/R8500_U
| M_4...
|
| The power supply for an R8500 gives 19V / 3.16 A DC
| maximum.
|
| And yes, a gaming PC can use a few hundred watts---that's
| why it has to have all of the thermal management and all
| of the hot air blowing out of it.
|
| P.s. https://kb.netgear.com/23003/Maximum-power-
| consumption-for-N...
| [deleted]
| j-pb wrote:
| I have a starlink beta, and we're currenty experiencing a really
| bad hearwave here in germany ( I measured 35C in the shade ).
|
| Mine works like a charm regardless.
| neals wrote:
| German hearwaves sound cool though.
| marcinzm wrote:
| That's not a heatwave by US standards, that's a pretty common
| summer day for a decent chunk of the US. Arizona can get to
| around 50C.
| gspr wrote:
| I think you know that heat waves are defined relative to the
| local climate. And recall that all but the southern part of
| Germany is north of the US-Canada border. AZ should be
| considered uninhabitable (in a sustainable sense) even
| outside of heat waves.
| V99 wrote:
| A reasonably modern air conditioner to cool your house in
| Phoenix a few months in the summer is more efficient than
| many of the common ways you'd heat a house from potentially
| well below freezing in the winter in many other places.
|
| And much of our power comes from solar (which is maximally
| available at the time cooling is maximally needed) and
| nuclear, while serious heating is often literally burning
| fossil fuels in your basement.
| pickle-wizard wrote:
| Being in direct sun in the South, I imagine that is pretty easy
| to hit. Guess there will be a market for air conditioned radomes.
| iandanforth wrote:
| You'd think that after the fiasco of not using automotive grade
| parts at Tesla which forced them to run AC to keep them within
| operating range they would have put more thought into high
| temperature electronics.
| daguire wrote:
| DITBA
| [deleted]
| kemonocode wrote:
| I wonder why such an aggressive thermal cutoff too, 50C ain't
| that hot even for consumer-grade electronics. Is it related to
| all that heat reducing SNR to unacceptable levels? If so, that
| frankly sounds like a pretty severe design shortcoming.
| toss1 wrote:
| Yup, the basiv spec for this device intended to be used
| remotely should be summer in the Saudi desert, or at least
| Death Valley (in the same US state) - with solar heating also
| expected.
|
| It's nice that they at least check & shut down to protect the
| device, but this shouldn't have made it out of the prototypes,
| nevermind Alpha or Beta testing...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-06-18 23:00 UTC)