[HN Gopher] Towing a Tesla at 70 MPH replenishes battery at fast...
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       Towing a Tesla at 70 MPH replenishes battery at fast charger rates
        
       Author : danboarder
       Score  : 95 points
       Date   : 2021-06-21 13:26 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (insideevs.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (insideevs.com)
        
       | _Microft wrote:
       | You have to pull it forward instead of backward but beside that
       | it is not too different from a wind-up car, don't you think?
       | Teslas do not support car-to-car charge transfer for a situation
       | like this, do they? Nice to know that this actually works though.
        
         | devoutsalsa wrote:
         | Charging stations should be giant hands that pull the car
         | backwards!
        
       | avalys wrote:
       | This is interesting to see quantified but not surprising at all -
       | this isn't really any different than regenerative braking from
       | coasting down a steep hill.
        
       | devoutsalsa wrote:
       | I wonder if we'll ever have recharging drones that sense your car
       | is running low, pull ahead of you, and just start towing your car
       | for a ways so you don't even have to stop.
        
         | croon wrote:
         | I assume this is tongue-in-cheek, but just pulling up close to
         | you and springing out a charging cable arm would be more
         | efficient.
        
           | devoutsalsa wrote:
           | Could you charge a car while driving it? I guess you can
           | charge a laptop while using it. Why not!
        
             | xeromal wrote:
             | I don't think current cars can do that but I'm sure could
             | be expanded to
        
           | Retric wrote:
           | And even better just embed some wires in the road and charge
           | everyone at highway speeds. Either ground-level power supply
           | through conductive rails or inductive coils both work with
           | different tradeoffs.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_road
        
             | ErikVandeWater wrote:
             | > Just embed some wires in the road...
             | 
             | No offense but that is the most loaded phrase I've heard
             | this week.
             | 
             | That would be a major overhaul of both roads and electric
             | car designs.
        
               | Retric wrote:
               | Several different systems are all at demonstration
               | phases. EX: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/
               | apr/12/worlds-f...
               | 
               | I suspect the hard part is getting every car manufacturer
               | to agree to the same system not designing something that
               | works.
        
               | elihu wrote:
               | Sure, but it would be worth it.
               | 
               | The cost is that you'd have to re-engineer maybe ten or
               | twenty percent of major freeways and interstates (like
               | have two miles of charging per every ten to twenty miles
               | of regular road), and you'd need to establish a standard
               | for trucks and passenger vehicles and get automakers to
               | adopt it. (Or make it simple enough that it can be added
               | as an aftermarket kit.) You'd also need to install more
               | electrical generation capacity. (Fortunately, charging
               | cars while they're driving shifts most of the charging
               | from nighttime to daytime, when solar power can be used
               | for this purpose.)
               | 
               | The benefit is that you could reduce long-haul trucking
               | fuel consumption to near zero and reduce the need for EVs
               | to have heavy, expensive 200-mile-or-more-range
               | batteries.
        
               | rsynnott wrote:
               | A somewhat more practical approach:
               | https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/9/18538030/germany-
               | ehighway-...
        
               | elihu wrote:
               | Overhead lines are probably the simplest and cheapest
               | option, but the downside is that you're basically limited
               | to trucks only due to the cable height, unless you also
               | have a passenger car-only lane with lower cables.
               | 
               | There's a test in Sweden that uses power rails embedded
               | under the road surface. I like that approach because it's
               | more versatile and looks better, but on the other hand
               | it's also more expensive.
        
               | contravariant wrote:
               | Everything old is new again I suppose.
        
         | dronechariots wrote:
         | At that point, why not just have drone chariots that pull you
         | the whole way
        
           | croon wrote:
           | New headline: "Tesla reaches destination without expending
           | any energy!"
        
           | unknown_error wrote:
           | Add a few string lights and you have a poor man's Helios
        
           | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
           | ... And we've reinvented pod-racing.
        
         | rini17 wrote:
         | Or use horses or mules. Would be a sight to behold :)
        
         | BeefWellington wrote:
         | Or you could have dyno-based chargers that work like automated
         | car washes. Pull in to a stall, guided onto the drums, put in
         | gear, go for a coffee.
         | 
         | Cons:
         | 
         | - Less efficient than using an actual electrical cable.
         | 
         | - Requires larger infrastructure space.
         | 
         | Pros:
         | 
         | - Could work with any brand that has regenerative braking.
         | 
         | - Could be adapted into existing automated car washes as a
         | premium feature.
        
       | Jeff_Brown wrote:
       | Obviously a fast tow will generate a faster charge, but does the
       | total amount of energy imparted depend only on distance? Or maybe
       | it actually falls slightly at higher speeds? (The latter is my
       | intuition.)
        
       | sokoloff wrote:
       | It seems like the tire wear wouldn't be worth it. You're pulling
       | the tires at almost 100 horsepower of energy transfer. Sure, neat
       | for a video gag though.
        
         | bellyfullofbac wrote:
         | Hah, don't try it in Europe either, max towing speed in Europe
         | is 40km/h or 25mph.
         | 
         | I guess a tow truck with a bed that has a rolling road would be
         | an idea, prop up the car so the weight of the car isn't
         | actually exerting force that makes the wheels harder to
         | turn/cause extra wear. Or the "rolling road" can be replaced be
         | a contraption that attaches to the wheels by e.g. its rims, and
         | spins it.
        
           | dreamcompiler wrote:
           | This would work but it would probably make more economic
           | sense to carry a generator to the car than to carry a wheel
           | spinner gizmo.
        
           | marc__1 wrote:
           | @Peloton, here is your next big idea
        
             | bellyfullofbac wrote:
             | Hah, they should integrate the bike into the car and make
             | the modern Flintstones car.
        
           | wazoox wrote:
           | Plus in Europe it's forbidden to tow with a rope like he
           | does. You must use a rigid link, like a bar or a tube.
        
             | raverbashing wrote:
             | Not necessarily forbidden, but there's a good reason for
             | not towing with a rope. Especially at 70MPH (which is 112
             | kph)
             | 
             | Though towing a Tesla with regerative braking is the best
             | case. You definitely wouldn't want to tow anything that
             | can't brake or steer with a rope.
        
             | efraim wrote:
             | Not true, a rope is fine.
        
               | deeblering4 wrote:
               | Until the tow truck hits the brakes...
        
               | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
               | First day of statics - you can't push a rope.
        
               | quercusa wrote:
               | I was once involved in towing a car using a partially-
               | inflated water bed as a 'bumper'. We got there!
        
               | wazoox wrote:
               | I don't think so. Most vehicles have virtually no braking
               | power with the engine off. It's definitely completely
               | forbidden in France to tow with a rope, and I'm pretty
               | sure this applies to all or at least most of UE too. In
               | Germany, even tow dollies are forbidden.
        
               | detaro wrote:
               | Towing rope is legal in Germany, _but_ you are only
               | allowed to tow a car to get it out of the way and to the
               | nearest repair opportunity after it has broken down, not
               | for general transport - for that, it needs to be
               | completely off the ground.
        
         | Retric wrote:
         | It's likely fine, 65 kW is only ~85 HP. Simply maintaining
         | highway speeds is ~25HP, so as far as the tire is concerned
         | it's the equivalent of mild acceleration or breaking.
         | 
         | The regenerative breaking system is likely designed for long
         | mountain roads, so it might overheat but probably not.
        
           | toomuchtodo wrote:
           | Teslas will switch to friction brakes when regeneration
           | limits (peak current or battery SOC) are exceeded. I've
           | sustained constant 50kw regen while downhill through
           | Appalachia passes, no issues, with the caveat that regen
           | current is limited if the pack is cold until it approaches
           | operating temperature (yellow dashed lines on the regen
           | current display indicate your reduced regen capability).
        
             | baybal2 wrote:
             | Teslas have no resistor banks?
             | 
             | A great omission.
        
               | dreamcompiler wrote:
               | A resistor bank of the required wattage would simply be a
               | big lump of dead weight most of the time. And it would
               | need its own cooling fan which would add even more
               | weight.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | meatmanek wrote:
               | Why would a resistor bank be better than mechanical
               | brakes? Both get rid of excess power as heat, and you
               | probably need the mechanical brakes anyway.
        
               | nwiswell wrote:
               | What is implied by the GP is that the cost of ownership
               | for regenerative brakes is lower per joule.
               | 
               | That's obviously true when that joule is "reused" and not
               | so obvious when it's dissipated. Mechanical brake pads
               | have to be replaced but I assume there is wear on the
               | (more expensive?) parts in a regen system too.
        
             | dreamcompiler wrote:
             | Does this mean that when the battery is full you _must_ use
             | the brake pedal? Or does the software automatically apply
             | the friction brakes when you back off the accelerator?
        
               | bin_bash wrote:
               | that's correct. You don't get one pedal braking if it's
               | not charging.
        
             | Dylan16807 wrote:
             | I don't think the brake pedal was being used in this test,
             | though.
        
               | toomuchtodo wrote:
               | My understanding is that above 95% SOC, even if you're
               | not using the brake, regen will not occur and an error is
               | presented to the user notifying them about regen limits.
        
               | Dylan16807 wrote:
               | Sure, so the car stops charging and still won't
               | waste/damage its brakes in the tow.
        
           | sokoloff wrote:
           | 65 kW is a little over 87 horsepower (parent previously
           | claimed ~80 HP, now edited to 85).
           | 
           | To get 65 kW into the battery, you have mechanical and
           | electrical conversion losses on top of that. The tires are
           | seeing pretty close to 100HP.
        
             | Retric wrote:
             | That really depends on what the 65 kW being displayed
             | represents. If it's the AC power from the regenerative
             | breaks that should be extremely efficient, post AC/DC
             | conversion things look worse etc.
        
               | sokoloff wrote:
               | The article claim is pretty clear:
               | 
               | > putting back electricity into the batter[y] at a rate
               | of 65 kW
               | 
               | The article could be wrong, of course.
        
       | crackercrews wrote:
       | The Mercedes got 5 MPG while towing the Tesla at freeway speeds.
       | [1]
       | 
       | 1: https://youtu.be/nILM_DEdBqM?t=336
        
       | temp0826 wrote:
       | So basically teslas are wind-up toys.
       | 
       | I wonder how efficient this could be made (I'm picturing
       | something like a dyno)
        
         | croon wrote:
         | Short answer: not at all. You're just moving the energy
         | expenditure behind lossy generation.
        
         | kingsuper20 wrote:
         | A hamster wheel.
        
       | ols wrote:
       | The most spectacular example of regenerative braking are trains
       | that are used in Scandinavia, heavily loaded with iron ore that
       | is transported to the coast:
       | 
       | "In Scandinavia the Kiruna to Narvik electrified railway carries
       | iron ore on the steeply-graded route from the mines in Kiruna, in
       | the north of Sweden, down to the port of Narvik in Norway to this
       | day. The rail cars are full of thousands of tons of iron ore on
       | the way down to Narvik, and these trains generate large amounts
       | of electricity by regenerative braking, with a maximum
       | recuperative braking force of 750 kN. From Riksgransen on the
       | national border to the Port of Narvik, the trains use only a
       | fifth of the power they regenerate. The regenerated energy is
       | sufficient to power the empty trains back up to the national
       | border. Any excess energy from the railway is pumped into the
       | power grid to supply homes and businesses in the region, and the
       | railway is a net generator of electricity." (via
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_brake#Conversion_... )
        
         | throwawayboise wrote:
         | What does the equation look like when you subtract the energy
         | used in the actual mining, though?
        
           | ols wrote:
           | On the other hand it would be nice to count in that the iron
           | ore gains value when it's moved from inside the mine to the
           | port.
        
         | mechanicalpulse wrote:
         | This is fascinating. So they are essentially harvesting the
         | gravitational potential energy of the iron ore at altitude to
         | charge the batteries (and then some) for the cargoless return
         | trip. Outstanding.
        
           | furiousjulius wrote:
           | Reminds me of this dam operation around here that pumps water
           | up to a mountain top reservoir during the day when power is
           | cheap and then lets it go at night when it can generate and
           | sell the electricity for more money. I was always in awe of
           | the lake size battery they created.
        
             | dreamcompiler wrote:
             | Pumped hydro is one of the cheapest ways to store
             | electricity iff you have the topography available to create
             | the uphill lake and plenty of water available to compensate
             | for evaporation.
        
             | rpmisms wrote:
             | Maybe this could be applied to water towers? That's a lot
             | of potential energy just sitting there.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | dharmab wrote:
               | Water towers are already used that way- water is pumped
               | in during off-peak time and used during peak time.
        
               | cobaltoxide wrote:
               | Not enough volume.
               | 
               | And you have to maintain water in the tower in order to
               | keep the water distribution system pressurized.
        
               | sigstoat wrote:
               | pumped storage systems are so large as to be geographic
               | features.
               | 
               | there isn't much energy in a water tower. and that water
               | is already doing work, pressurizing the water system.
        
               | Guvante wrote:
               | So I did the math and the average water tower holds
               | something like 1/2 kWh worth of power. (50m tall, storage
               | of 1m gallons, efficiency of 90%)
               | 
               | Hydro power storage is fantastic but needs truly
               | ridiculous amounts of water and height deltas to make
               | sense.
        
               | avalys wrote:
               | You're telling me I could fill a typical water tower in 1
               | hour with a 500 W pump running off a kitchen outlet?
        
               | Aperocky wrote:
               | You probably made a mistake somewhere.
               | 
               | 3.8Mg * G * 50m ~ 1700M Joules which is about 500kWh.
        
               | NemuriBaku wrote:
               | I suspect the k in kWh leads to the occasional factor of
               | 1000 error.
        
               | hnuser123456 wrote:
               | https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gravitational+poten
               | tia...
               | 
               | I got 450 kWh? Maybe you meant 1/2 MWh
        
         | FridayoLeary wrote:
         | The heavy iron ore is essentially a large battery storing
         | gravitational energy. In a way it's just another natural energy
         | source. Maybe in the future clean power can be generated from
         | pulling down mountains.
        
           | mdeeks wrote:
           | Apparently there is already the concept of rail train
           | batteries: https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11524958/energy-
           | storage-rail
           | 
           | You run the trains up the hill when energy is cheap or, for
           | example, when the sun is out and solar works. Then when you
           | need it, you run the trains down hill to generate
           | electricity. Similar to pumped hydro where they do the same
           | by pumping water up hill and then draining it downhill later.
           | Super cool!
        
           | sigstoat wrote:
           | > Maybe in the future clean power can be generated from
           | pulling down mountains.
           | 
           | it takes a lot of power to dismantle mountains and load them
           | onto trains. and folks get real grumpy about mining
           | operations leveling off mountains.
        
           | perihelions wrote:
           | >Maybe in the future clean power can be generated from
           | pulling down mountains.
           | 
           | With added bonus efficiencies from combusting the coal that
           | fortuitously falls out!
        
           | lwansbrough wrote:
           | This idea is sort of being explored already:
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itbwXMMkBQw
           | 
           | There's other ways of doing this too. Rolling a ball up a
           | hill, inflating a balloon under water, etc.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | tobltobs wrote:
         | The same as a quarry truck in Switzerland:
         | https://www.autoblog.com/2019/08/26/edumper-electric-mining-...
        
           | Schweigi wrote:
           | Which has a nearly infinitive range because because of how
           | the quarry is set-up! In a way the perfect use case for
           | electrification. The truck is able to drive anywhere and much
           | more flexible - e.g. compared to a conveyor belt or cable car
           | solution.
        
         | brightball wrote:
         | I've seen something similar to this with large dump trucks made
         | for hauling loads down mountains. They generate so much power
         | fully loaded on the way down that they can make the trip all
         | the way back up.
        
       | elihu wrote:
       | This seems like an interesting solution to the "what to do if my
       | battery runs out in the middle of nowhere" problem.
       | 
       | Normally, you'd either have to have to call a tow truck or have
       | someone with a generator come along and recharge. However, towing
       | for awhile (probably at much less than 70 mph for safety reasons)
       | to recharge the battery enough to get to the next town is
       | something that could presumably be done by just about any passing
       | car if you have a tow strap (which could be stored in the EV for
       | such an occasion).
        
         | bin_bash wrote:
         | On the Long Way Up they did just this to recharge their Rivians
        
       | dcanelhas wrote:
       | They would clearly have been better off putting a diesel
       | generator on a trailer behind the tesla, for fuel efficiency.
       | 
       | 4 gal in 20 minutes the video said? That's about a 160kW
       | generator https://www.hardydiesel.com/resources/diesel-generator-
       | fuel-...
       | 
       | I wonder how diesel generator + tesla compares to an actual
       | diesel car.
        
         | Smoosh wrote:
         | I've sometimes wondered if it would be viable to build a "range
         | extender" for electric cars which is basically a generator
         | which is designed to integrate with the vehicle, but can be
         | easily removed. Then people could fit them when they were going
         | on longer trips converting the car to a plug-in serial hybrid.
         | Car dealerships could perhaps rent them out and do the
         | install/removal.
        
       | rad_gruchalski wrote:
       | What would be great to see is what's the energy balance between
       | tesla towing another tesla at this speed.
        
         | moomin wrote:
         | I think in the video they said they were getting about a third
         | of the energy consumed, so I'm guessing it would be similar.
        
       | danboarder wrote:
       | So he was getting supercharger speeds (50% battery in about a
       | half hour) which is awesome! The Tesla has its own built in
       | "supercharger" if you can find an alternative way to power it. My
       | idea then is this - could a dyno be modified to be powered and
       | function as competitive to a Tesla supercharger? Basically towing
       | it in-place. It would be rad to see this work! I could imagine
       | connecting it to a geared waterwheel for mechanical power if you
       | lived next to a fast moving river, for example.
        
         | worldsayshi wrote:
         | That sounds quite clever! Another potential for low cost
         | infrastructure in remote places.
        
       | lapetitejort wrote:
       | Regenerative braking is so neat. I drove up a steep windy road to
       | go on a hike with my plugin hybrid. On the way down I tried to
       | let gravity do all of the acceleration and regenerative braking
       | do all of the deceleration. At the bottom of the hill I had
       | racked up +3 miles in total. Another fringe benefit is that brake
       | pads wear out slower and produce less pollution.
        
         | unknown_error wrote:
         | Show HN: lapetitejort goes hiking, discovers perpetual motion
        
           | lapetitejort wrote:
           | That would be a neat test. Find a steep hill, preferably as
           | straight as possible, and test how many times an electric car
           | can traverse it before running out of batteries. Would the
           | distance traveled exceed that on a flat road with no
           | generation? By how much? I'm sure someone in San Fran has
           | already tested this.
        
             | cj wrote:
             | My intuition would say you'd never have longer range
             | driving up and down a hill compared to driving flat in a
             | straight line (and never braking).
             | 
             | I would imagine that at best, you could maybe match the
             | range. If there's any scenario where going up and down a
             | hill would yield more range than driving flat, I'd be very
             | interested in how/why.
        
               | lapetitejort wrote:
               | Yeah, rethinking it, assuming you start and end at the
               | same spot, the milage at the beginning is the max you can
               | achieve, full stop. Simple conservation of energy. So the
               | question becomes, how many miles do you lose at the end?
        
               | dreamcompiler wrote:
               | Going up/down at 20 MPH and going flat at 80 MPH might be
               | this scenario. If the velocity difference is big enough,
               | wind resistance will have a bigger impact on range than
               | the thermodynamic inefficiency of regen braking.
        
             | Workaccount2 wrote:
             | In theory they would be identical, but in practice a flat
             | road would be better. There are more real world
             | inefficiencies with going up and down a hill.
        
             | codeulike wrote:
             | _Would the distance traveled exceed that on a flat road
             | with no generation?_
             | 
             | No. Climbing the hill the car uses extra energy (compared
             | to a flat road) because its fighting gravity. On the way
             | back down the hill regen will recover some of that gravity-
             | fighting energy but nowhere near all of it.
        
               | hourislate wrote:
               | This scenario is a little different than a car but a
               | Swiss company is experimenting with a Komatsu Dump Truck
               | that basically recharges its battery using regen braking
               | on it's trip down so it has enough power for the trip up.
               | It actually generates a surplus of an extra 10kwh because
               | the truck is carrying a full load down.
               | 
               | https://phys.org/news/2017-09-e-dumper-world-largest-
               | electri...
        
               | monkeybutton wrote:
               | And going up it is empty. Its basically exploiting the
               | fact that rocks at the top of a hill have higher
               | potential energy than at the bottom. If you charged the
               | trucks with wind/solar at peak times and used them to
               | carry the rocks back uphill you could have yourself a
               | very convoluted and mechanically fraught battery!
        
               | codeulike wrote:
               | Like Pumped Storage Hydroelectricity
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-
               | storage_hydroelectricit...
        
               | UncleOxidant wrote:
               | A good visual demonstration of entropy. Heat death occurs
               | when all of the mountains have been leveled and there are
               | no altitude differences to exploit.
        
               | EvanAnderson wrote:
               | That's excellent! I'm stealing that.
        
               | unknown_error wrote:
               | That's actually pretty cool. It's kinda like a dam...
               | harnessing potential energy stored by geologic processes
               | and turning that into power? I'm sure there's some fancy
               | physics word for it that I don't know.
        
           | ineedasername wrote:
           | That's just pseudoscience: The earth is flat so there's no
           | such thing as going up hills.
        
           | seanmcdirmid wrote:
           | +3 miles hopefully didn't include the energy spent going up,
           | or the law of energy conservation would have been broken.
        
             | bin_bash wrote:
             | Not necessarily. The range is a function of energy over
             | rate of consumption. It's possible the car changed the
             | denominator giving it a further range estimate with less
             | total energy remaining.
        
             | TheSoftwareGuy wrote:
             | I think the wind at his back is key here. His car was
             | acting like a wind turbine
        
               | croon wrote:
               | I think OP meant winding and not windy, but even if not,
               | Teslas (and any other car) are designed to be
               | aerodynamic, not the opposite, so it's quite impossible
               | to yield more energy than it cost in that scenario, even
               | ignoring motor efficiency, regenerative braking
               | efficiency, and every other real world inefficiency.
        
               | underwater wrote:
               | Windy is a perfectly valid descriptive word for a
               | twisting road.
        
               | tomjakubowski wrote:
               | the confusion in this thread is that windy, as written,
               | could mean there's lots of wind (said "win-dee") or lots
               | of bends (or "winds", said "whine-dee"). "winding" is
               | less ambiguous
        
               | wolverine876 wrote:
               | > Teslas (and any other car) are designed to be
               | aerodynamic
               | 
               | Why not design them to be aerodynamic for headwinds, and
               | maximize wind-resistance for tailwinds? I wonder how much
               | energy would be gained.
        
             | sva_ wrote:
             | I imagine there might also be an effect in play, in which
             | the available miles are calculated using the energy used in
             | the past x miles. Although it should usually take a fairly
             | long distance to change that approximation... I think.
             | Maybe something about using negative energy though
             | regenerative braking skews the approximation.
        
             | teeray wrote:
             | He used a portal at the top and bottom of the hill and has
             | now solved the world's energy problems, including powering
             | the portals
        
             | HWR_14 wrote:
             | +3 miles is precise enough it could easily be measurement
             | errors
        
             | EvanAnderson wrote:
             | Maybe he picked up several large people who were already at
             | the top.
        
               | selimthegrim wrote:
               | Energy trolls?
        
             | unknown_error wrote:
             | Maybe lapetitejort had better lawyers.
        
               | SLWW wrote:
               | probably the first time a comment on HN has made me
               | laugh.
               | 
               | I hope the prosecutor has enough leverage with the court!
               | Justice truly is blind!
        
         | asdff wrote:
         | You can get this sort of benefit with a gas car with a manual
         | transmission too. Engine braking uses no gas, its just your
         | wheels turning your pistons and the friction from all of that
         | slows the car down. Most of the time I only hit the brakes to
         | go from 5mph-0mph in a manual car thanks to this.
        
         | oh_sigh wrote:
         | +3 miles electric, -20 miles gas (or something like that).
        
       | pcarolan wrote:
       | We have trains in chicago that reach whiskers up to charging
       | lines above them. Same as the trolley systems in San Francisco.
       | What if every major city to city freeway stretch had these in a
       | lane for electric vehicles?
        
         | wolverine876 wrote:
         | Why not wireless power? I would guess that it's highly
         | inefficient, and goodness knows the radiation levels that would
         | have to be broadcast throughout the city to charge all the
         | cars, but imagine if everything you had was charged
         | automatically in the city.
        
         | ErikVandeWater wrote:
         | Are all the cars going to reach up 13 feet in the air to the
         | charging lines? That would be a very tough sell. Not to mention
         | the increased danger of live power lines coming down in an
         | accident.
         | 
         | Also, how would lane changing work? Do they have to decouple
         | from one set of power lines and connect to another?
        
           | pcarolan wrote:
           | Why not? We do it safely in busy urban areas already. As for
           | changing lanes, even the most basic autopilots could solve
           | the lane changing problem. Also, making connection can help
           | steer the car and coordinate with other cars in the charging
           | lane.
        
         | jeofken wrote:
         | Volvo did a trial of this. Not sure how it ended up.
         | 
         | https://www.volvogroup.com/en/news-and-media/news/2018/sep/v...
        
         | rektide wrote:
         | Seems like a lot of physical infrastructure spread out over a
         | lot of area for little gain. Little gain because it doesn't
         | feel like charging at fixed stations is so bad, and it's not
         | something folks need to do that often. There's other challenges
         | too. You'd also need to build some system for billing, such
         | that people don't start to steal power. Do we trust the cars to
         | meter themselves? Or do we try to have the line monitor who is
         | using how much power continuously?
         | 
         | Personally i more imagine something like this video, except
         | instead of physically towing a car to run it's generator, the
         | "tow" vehicle is merely a truck with a lot of batteries,
         | battery-powered charger (easy), and charge plug at the end of a
         | boom arm. Folks can summon a on-the-go charger & it follows
         | them around for ~30 minutes & charges them.
         | 
         | I like the big-dream nature of your ask, how it seeks to adapt
         | the infrastructure of the road to the new power modality. It
         | seems dauntingly expensive, but it's certainly going to be more
         | power-effective & material-effective than battery-charger-
         | trucks are.
        
           | pcarolan wrote:
           | The other advantage is coordination and self driving. You
           | could pretty much get in the charging lane, go to sleep and
           | wake up in chicago. The whiskers can provide steering and
           | other vehicle coordination if you think of them as power +
           | data.
        
             | rektide wrote:
             | And you can build special roads that only your model of
             | cars can drive on, with your model of cpu brains. And maybe
             | get some government grants to build it all.
        
           | wolverine876 wrote:
           | > Little gain because it doesn't feel like charging at fixed
           | stations is so bad
           | 
           | I think people would like very much never having to charge
           | their cars as long as they remain in the city.
        
         | dmayle wrote:
         | I don't know whether or not it is legal, but I have seen an
         | electric car with tram whiskers before. I think I saw it in San
         | Francisco, and I think it was a Prius. Some quick Googling
         | fails to turn it up, though.
         | 
         |  _EDIT_ Found a link: https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-
         | running-on-muni-power...
        
           | athenot wrote:
           | That is awesome but the article's date is _April 1st_ 2014.
        
             | dmayle wrote:
             | Be that as it may, I saw the actual car before I ever saw
             | the article. Maybe it was him, maybe the article is fake,
             | but it inspired someone to try it for real. Either way,
             | I've seen a real life car doing this.
             | 
             |  _EDIT_ I 've found confirmation that the article is an
             | April Fool's joke. I still, however, have seen a car doing
             | this (or at least attempting to do this) on the streets of
             | San Francisco.
        
       | worldsayshi wrote:
       | Couldn't we use smart kites that would fly around hooking up to
       | your car as sails whenever there's a lot of wind in an area with
       | open skies? Get towed, charge a bit and/or save battery. The car
       | automatically sends some fee payment as a thanks.
       | 
       | Requires a lot of smart infrastructure that we don't have but it
       | seems like one of those things that should be doable once we've
       | figured out autonomous driving...
        
       | unknown_error wrote:
       | What if you had two Teslas taking turns towing each other at 70
       | MPH? You could increase the range to (INFINITY*EFFICIENCY)-MATHS!
       | That's a lot of muskjuice.
        
         | moistbar wrote:
         | Why stop there? You could get a whole circle of Teslas towing
         | each other and never even have to stop moving!
        
           | mixmastamyk wrote:
           | Then, have them turn a turbine to generate electricity, qed.
        
       | Simulacra wrote:
       | What if they had a Tesla merry-go-round where instead of charging
       | your Tesla, you connected it to this giant horizontal ferris
       | wheel that spun it around and charged the battery? It could be
       | wind powered!
        
         | ojosilva wrote:
         | I guess conveyor belts under the wheels would have similar
         | results, probably with less moving parts.
         | 
         | But then... why bother, just plug the car to the power source
         | making your marry-go-round go round! Otherwise this is a lot
         | like putting salt on a birds tail to catch it...
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_a_bird%27s_tail
        
           | stavros wrote:
           | Is the argument that if you could have salted the tail you
           | could have just caught the bird?
        
         | dhosek wrote:
         | You said this as a joke, but I found myself (at least for a
         | little while) wondering whether this might be more efficient
         | than having the wind turbine generate electricity and then have
         | that electricity power the charger. But then I remembered that
         | there is the cost of moving the relatively heavy vehicle on the
         | merry-go-round and realized it wouldn't actually work.
        
           | unknown_error wrote:
           | What if you had a driveable wind turbine? They have solar
           | panels on Priuses, might as well add wind to Teslas. The
           | faster you drive, the more wind there is!
           | 
           | Now if you had a solar-powered Prius towing a wind-powered
           | Tesla on the deck of a nuclear-powered carrier, you're just
           | one creative accountant away from starting your own renewable
           | defense company.
        
           | Dylan16807 wrote:
           | You're still converting to electricity somewhere, and moving
           | around electricity is vastly more efficient than moving
           | around mechanical energy. Always convert at the source.
           | 
           | Even when your output is mechanical it's hard to beat
           | electrical wires. But here the output is battery charge; no
           | contest.
        
         | hughrr wrote:
         | I had a similar idea which involved a large amount of gerbils
         | in a giant wheel. They can convert sunflower seeds (which are
         | of course solar powered) into energy 24/7. Thanks to your
         | stroke of genius instead of using a generator and charging your
         | EV you can just put a wheel next to it and leave the Tesla on
         | it now. I haven't worked out what to do with half a ton of
         | gerbil corpses, shit and sunflower seed shells yet though.
        
           | muststopmyths wrote:
           | Biogas, obviously !
        
           | contravariant wrote:
           | If this technology improves enough we should eventually be
           | able to mount the gerbil wheel inside of the Tesla.
        
       | rektide wrote:
       | Random piece of trivia i found interesting, the dash shows a watt
       | _hours /mile used view while towing.
       | 
       | There's a good bit of variance as the video goes on, but there's
       | a couple periods where it seems to top out at -1200
       | watt_hours/mi. 54 mi/h * 1200 w*h / mi = ~65kW watts (87 HP)
       | charging, which is a common rate from superchargers.
        
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