[HN Gopher] Patent Trolling's twin: Copyright trolling ___________________________________________________________________ Patent Trolling's twin: Copyright trolling Author : Stevvo Score : 226 points Date : 2021-06-22 09:22 UTC (1 days ago) (HTM) web link (austinmeyer.com) (TXT) w3m dump (austinmeyer.com) | _fat_santa wrote: | I wonder. With these floor plans being so vague, could the | defendants being sued for copyright infringement just argue that | these copyrights were so vague that they accidentally copied | them? | | That is, say there is a plan on their site for a 2BD/2BA house, | the floor plan is very simple and a builder that is unaware of | this company ends up copying the floor plan for no other reason | that it happens to be a very common floorplan. Could this company | still pursue damages? | | When we think of copyright we often think of companies like | Google copyrighting the word "Google". Now you can't go out and | use "Google" in your own work, it's pretty dang obvious. But what | if Google copyrighted the "Google Grilled Cheese Sandwich" which | is just a regular grilled cheese sandwich, could they really go | after folks who just happened to make the exact same grilled | cheese sandwich just because making one is pretty obvious. | danaris wrote: | > When we think of copyright we often think of companies like | Google copyrighting the word "Google". | | That's trademark. | | Copyright is for a creative work of some kind. | | > But what if Google copyrighted the "Google Grilled Cheese | Sandwich" which is just a regular grilled cheese sandwich... | | ...and this sounds like you're referring to patent protection, | which is for an invention. | badRNG wrote: | One regrettable thing that seems to happen here a lot is that | pedants will swarm to address some relatively irrelevant | misunderstanding made in a genuine question relevant to the | article _without ever addressing the question being asked._ | | I think the commenter gets it, Christ for the fifth time now | yes, there's a difference between copyright and trademark. You | can't copyright a word, got it. Now that we have that bit of | pedantry thoroughly out of the way, I have the _exact_ same | question as the one above: | | >That is, say there is a plan on their site for a 2BD/2BA | house, the floor plan is very simple and a builder that is | unaware of this company ends up copying the floor plan for no | other reason that it happens to be a very common floorplan. | Could this company still pursue damages? | bluGill wrote: | Floor plans are not copyrightable. The blueprint might be - | but that includes things like "Joe's architecture services" | which wouldn't be on your copy, and the dimension markings | would be in different places (unless the placement is | standardized in which case the placement is not creative and | thus not copyrightable). | | The floor plan is probably subject to patents. I don't think | anyone has done this, but I don't see why it isn't possible. | badRNG wrote: | The article (and I'm not sure how accurate this is) seems | to be claiming the houses themselves are in violation of | DesignBasics' copyrights: | | >Now, with these simple, vague floor-plans (not full | architectural drawings!) out there for everyone to see... | they look for someone to actually build a house that has a | similar layout, and then jump in with the lawsuit! | | Are they just hoping every builder will settle out of | court? | zentiggr wrote: | That's pretty much the business model. Cost of settling | can be less than the cost of defending the suit. | | Every case where someone with pockets deep enough, holds | out and gets a judgment against the troll - especially | with legal costs included - is a huge blow to their | business. And a single case that doesn't go their way is | often enough to shut down their business and poof. | | Hope one of Design Basics's defendants is in a position | to say Enough! | jdironman wrote: | That's probably why floor plans are only for 4 BR or less | homes. Middle class, upper middle class maybe. Most | likely the kind of people without deep pockets. | ddingus wrote: | Could potentially be a design patent, given said plan has | some form and specific function that is not obvious. | bluGill wrote: | Potentially, but there are so many houses that it gets | hard to find something that won't be laughed out of | court. | ddingus wrote: | Right! I agree, and really was just stating the only | possibility I see. | stonemetal12 wrote: | Clean room reverse engineering is a valid protection against | copyright claims. So as long as whoever drew the plans didn't | know about the original they are safe. Even if the builder | had a copy of their plans and gave whoever did the drawings | leading instructions to get them to draw something similar to | the original. | aidenn0 wrote: | That's probably why they mass mail these plans to | homebuilders, to make it harder to prove they didn't copy | HotHotLava wrote: | > That is, say there is a plan on their site for a 2BD/2BA | house, the floor plan is very simple and a builder that is | unaware of this company ends up copying the floor plan for no | other reason that it happens to be a very common floorplan. | Could this company still pursue damages? | | No. The ruling in this case actually covers this in detail: | Proving copyright infringement is a two-step process, first | you must prove that something was _actually copied_ and then | that the copied portion was substantial enough to constitute | infringement. But the first part is a necessary precondition, | without copying there 's no infringement. They give the | example of two comic book authors inventing a character | called "Dennis the Menace" independently on the same day. | extra88 wrote: | > Google copyrighting the word "Google" | | You can't have a copyright on a word. You're thinking of | another category of intellectual property, trademark. Google | has a trademark for the word "Google" but trademarks are for | specific uses of words related to the business. The intent of | trademark law is a form of consumer protection, you can't fool | the public that your product or service is offered by the | trademark holder by using the trademarked term. | mkr-hn wrote: | This is the same reason there can be huge, famous, | influential companies with the same name in different | industries. | bena wrote: | You're confusing trademark with copyright. | | Google can't copyright "Google". That's not how it works. | Google would apply for trademark protection on the wordmark, | Google in relation to search and/or advertising. The USPTO has | all the details if you can handle searching their site (it's a | bit of a mess). | fortran77 wrote: | You're confusing the word "copywrite" (to write copy) with | "copyright" (the right to make copies of a creative work). | bena wrote: | I did make that mistake in one spot. | taeric wrote: | Nit:. Google is trademarked. Copyright is a different thing. | | And pretty sure independent creation is a valid thing. Is how | the initial pc clone industry got its start. | pbhjpbhj wrote: | >so vague that they accidentally copied them? // | | No, but you're on the right track. | | Copyright covers copying, if you didn't copy _and can prove it_ | then that 's an absolute defence (see eg WIPO PROOF). | | Copyright being a tort, the usual measure of proof is 'balance | of probabilities'. That means if you didn't copy, but you | _cannot_ prove you didn't, and it looks like you probably did, | then a court can find against you. | | There is also the notion of _distinctiveness_ , generic, non- | creative things don't acquire copyright ("common elements"; | trademark has similar aspects, it's hard to word things without | confusing the two, they're differently concepts with the same | names). | | However, in 2012 there was a case in UK law over an image of a | London bus, where a re-creation of the image was used | commercially. The copyright in the original photo was | considered to be infringed despite the image being highly | generic (Temple Island V New English Teas, 2012). A lot of | people, myself included, are not convinced of this decision | (see also Kenrick V Lawrence). | | USC and UK law differ, but as copyright is based on | international treaties such as Berne Convention and TRIPS you | find they're broadly analogous in a lot of ways; I can't | comment on where the line lies in USA law. | | _This is my personal opinion, unrelated to my employment; this | is not legal advice._ | [deleted] | gnopgnip wrote: | Independent creation is a defense to copyright infringement | fortran77 wrote: | I can assure you that "Google" never "copyrighted" the word | "Google." | jermaustin1 wrote: | Copyright trolling cost me a fairly successful blog my wife ran. | The ads paid out more than hosting cost! She had shared an image | from a girl who took the photo with permission, but then that | girl sold the photo to a copyright troll who then sent a demand | letter. Either pay a yearly license of $1750 and a back-pay for | the 4 years it had been hosted, or get sued. I retained a lawyer | to prepare for lawsuit because we were given permission by the | author to use the photo, had email proof. But after a few months | of back and forth, we ran out of money to keep fighting and had | the lawyer negotiate just killing the site. | beervirus wrote: | If the facts are really so clear-cut, it sounds like your | lawyer did not do a great job. | jermaustin1 wrote: | My entire instruction was to do everything to avoid court. I | didn't want to get tied up in court. | munk-a wrote: | I know there's a lot of backseat lawyering going on in this | thread but you probably took precisely the right action. | Patent trolls have war chests to weather the occasional | lawsuit and it's likely they could've outspent you on | appeals. | | There are many people two decades into civil suits that | have experienced a level of pain you thankfully dodged. It | is really regretful that the troll forced a full site take | down but the legal system can be a harsh mistress - at | least you're not penniless. | beervirus wrote: | If you have a license to the photograph, why not just send | proof of that to the troll and threaten them with Rule 11 | sanctions if they sue you? I have to think anybody with a | brain would just drop it at that point. | jermaustin1 wrote: | Our "license" was the "photographer" replying to an email | saying it could be posted on our blog. It was just a | cellphone photo of Robert Pattinson in nyc. Troll | wouldn't even let me remove the post. Eventually they | just took the loss and let me kill the site. | [deleted] | Thiez wrote: | In a reasonable world, shouldn't the copyright troll be suing | the girl instead? Presumably she sold the troll an exclusive | license (otherwise the copyright troll wouldn't be interested | in obtaining the license) which she must have lied about | because she had already licensed the photo to your wife. | hhjj wrote: | well i think the defense lawyer was a bit disingenuous. I | guess the only step should have been to confirm the agreement | with the girl, forward it to troll and then tell them you | have a license so get lost or see you in court. But it looks | like they didn't go to court at all... | teawrecks wrote: | My understanding is that the troll would love to take it to | court and keep it there until you can't afford to fight | anymore. | munificent wrote: | Court costs trolls too. They don't want things in court. | They want you to settle. | munk-a wrote: | Trolls adore it when people settle out of court - but the | cost of occasionally bankrupting people to scare everyone | else into compliance tends to be accepted. | | Bear in mind that a lot of times the patent troll either | has a practicing lawyer on staff or has an intimate | relation with one - so they're considering the cost of | labour rather than the market rate. | fny wrote: | I have been in this situation. If you have this level of | evidence, you absolutely do not need a lawyer. Let me guess, | BWP Media? | | The minute they try to get a court to take the case, it'll get | knocked out. (They know this by the way.) | | Now let's say this isn't the full story and little girly sold | the picture to you after having given the rights to the | copyright troll... | | ...then you take the hit and take the girl to small claims | court. | coolsunglasses wrote: | Counter-party risk. 9/10 times you won't get the money back | from the girl. | | You're right about the case getting tossed in most | circumstances but you can suss that out by asking for proof | of when they bought the copyright from the girl and checking | the effective date. | generationP wrote: | Killing an entire site because of one photo? | jermaustin1 wrote: | It was too much work to fight and they wouldn't accept | removing only the offending post. I'm sure if I wanted to go | to court I would have won but at what cost? | lethologica wrote: | Why couldn't the photo just be replaced with another? | jermaustin1 wrote: | Troll wouldn't even let me remove the post. Eventually | they just took the loss after months (a year?) and let me | kill the site. | float4 wrote: | Atrocious that such a trivial case cost you so much money that | you actually lost (not strictly, but it must've felt like a | loss). | | My dad is currently suing has past employer (the state). It's | taken two years so far and they try to screw him over in | whatever way possible. Luckily the union is paying for his | lawyer, so he doesn't really care. | | As someone in his early twenties who knows very little about | law, the way such cases go down is mind-blowing to me. | Trias11 wrote: | Could you "transfer" the blog to another entity registered | overseas to make it really expensive for troll to pursue? | | There must be other approaches not to win but make it very | expensive for troll to proceed. | copywrong wrote: | Perhaps naive... but in a case where it is so plain that there | is no case to answer, what is the rationale behind hiring | lawyers rather than simply filing court documents yourself if | they _do_ sue? The copyright troll was looking to make money: | shutting down your site didn't do anything for them -- it was | likely just a negotiating tactic that went awry when you called | their bluff (actually shut down the site). | rhino369 wrote: | Federal civil courts aren't a small claims court. The rules | aren't easily understood and are full of pitfalls that trip | up even experienced litigators. Your answer to a complaint | needs to address every single allegation AND raise all | affirmative defenses--or they could be waived. | | You are pretty likely to foot fault and end up just putting | yourself in a worse negotiating position. | | Trolls already have pre-made complaints, discovery requests, | etc. already lined up. You'll have to work a long time to do | what they can in a couple hours. | a4isms wrote: | The fact that we ask this question leads us to asking, "Who | is the best person to answer the question of whether it's a | good idea to file the documents yourself, and if so, how | things are likely to go over the next ___ years of | litigation?" | | And the answer is... A LAWYER EXPERIENCED IN COPYRIGHT AND | INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY LITIGATION. | | That answers your question for me. In cases roughly similar | to this, I have begun with a lawyer. Yes, there are two times | I recall where they said, "Do it yourself, but watch out for | X or Y, and call me back if Z." That alone justified what I | was paying for the first proper, clock is ticking, | consultation. | | What happens after the first consultation would depend upon | the case. | | INAL, YMMV, &c. | tehwebguy wrote: | IMO it's also very important to be incredibly hands-on, to | manage your attorney after getting them to explain the case | to you. | | When hiring one of the best attorneys to defend the type of | action brought I had to be very clear about what they were | to do in between our calls (ask the third party to agree to | drop it if we get plaintiff to drop it, ask plaintiff these | questions, if they don't do X we will do Y, offer them Z). | | It was also important to stop them from taking pointless | actions that would have cost tons of hours: do not read the | discovery (hundreds of pages of details that wouldn't | change things), do not read the third party's ToS looking | for a loophole (another ~50 pages) as the company likely | had already spent hundreds of thousands writing it and | millions testing it in court. | | We would have done those things if necessary but they | didn't need to be done simultaneously and the settlement | attempts paid off immediately. It was not an IP case and I | don't think it had merit, but it would have likely cost at | least a little more (or possibly much, much more) just to | find out and I wasn't interested in finding out. It was not | a scenario where some floodgates could be opened if we | settled. | paulryanrogers wrote: | > IMO it's also very important to be incredibly hands-on, | to manage your attorney after getting them to explain the | case to you. | | Wow. So now you almost certainly have to have a lawyer | because of byzantine 'tested' language _and_ you have to | nanny them to avoid getting soaked for billable hours!? | | It feels like such a racket. | Negitivefrags wrote: | This is true of basically all professional services that | you hire. | a4isms wrote: | A velvet glove around what you just said is that it's | like you are a product owner, and the lawyer is a pure | engineer. | | They are the expert in implementing the business outcomes | you want, but you and only you know all the context | required to take the tradeoffs your lawyer articulates, | and decide which tradeoffs to make. | anotherman554 wrote: | If parent was incorporated and the corporation was sued they | cannot defend the corporation without a lawyer. They can | defend themselves as individuals without a lawyer if sued | individually. | | Of course the copyright troll may never have sued. But your | lawyer will happily charge an hourly rate to repeatedly write | letters saying "If you sue us we will win!" | thatguy0900 wrote: | I'm curious what the rationale is for the corporation. Why | can't a ceo represent his own company? | anotherman554 wrote: | I imagine the theory is unless the CEO owns 100% percent | of his company it's not his company. He's engaged in | unauthorized practice of law and screwing over his | investors since he has no idea how to practice law. | There's also the fact that lawyers have background checks | before getting a law license, and if a CEO could practice | law without a license it would potentially be a big | loophole for fraudsters and other known criminals who | commit fraud to be able to practice law. | jonas21 wrote: | Even if the CEO owns 100% of the corporation, it's still | a separate entity. That's one of the benefits of | incorporating - when someone sues the corporation, they | can go after its assets, but not the CEO's. | | But that means the corporation gets treated like a | separate person. And just like you can't represent your | friend in court (unless you're a lawyer), you also can't | represent your corporation. | SerLava wrote: | Patent law was designed for giant companies to stop other | giant companies from using their stuff. | | Nobody could really "publish" things on their own. | | And the fact that it's overbearing for normal people is now a | feature rather than a bug. | munk-a wrote: | Patent law has evolved into that - but it was designed for | independent creators to stand up to giant corporations that | want to steal their stuff. | | It is terrible as it exists today but some form of device | patenting needs to exist. | dnautics wrote: | because (IIRC) if you win and you get a SLAPP judgement | against your harasser, then you be awarded a penalty. Depends | on jurisdiction, of course. Possibly not in federal. | [deleted] | sokoloff wrote: | Sending back a letter on a lawyer's letterhead is also a | negotiating tactic. It's probably what I'd have done as well. | Emailing back from joe_blow_blog_157@gmail doesn't send the | same signal as "deal with my lawyer; we think we're right; | what's your next move?" | mkr-hn wrote: | Let me guess: Getty Images? | jermaustin1 wrote: | I cannot disclose who, but it wasn't Getty or any of the big | names. | MikeUt wrote: | Those kinds of non-disclosure agreements should be illegal. | Not just unenforceable, but illegal, with penalties for | those that draft them. The public has a right to know the | abuse carried out in the name of its legal system. | munk-a wrote: | I disagree - that fact that a settlement doesn't deem | either party at fault is one of the big appeals. Making | settlement negotiations necessarily public will remove | that benefit in most cases. | frankincense wrote: | Does anyone know a good web accessibility troll to sue | designbasics for their site's accessibility violations? | kingsuper20 wrote: | Brilliant. It sounds a bit like those guys who brute-forced every | melody below a certain size. | tech-historian wrote: | Those melodies were used to fight copyright, not profit from | extortion. Different use case. | ysavir wrote: | Can anyone speak to the viability of fighting these cases in | court? Is it a sure win/loss? Is it guaranteed to take at least X | months and cost Y dollars? | | If there were free resources online on how to fight these cases | in court, with information for both defendants and their | representatives, is there any chance of making it fast and cheap | enough that it won't be worth the troll's time? | cwkoss wrote: | All failed IP suits should have to pay attorney's fees for the | defendants and invalidate the IP that was claimed to be | infringed. | tzahifadida wrote: | I had a similar situation whereby someone sued me because i | worked with someone 10 years earlier and he was hoping to get | dirt on him by extorting me. I called my cousin and the deal was | that he will represent me and take the whole compensation for a | dumb ass lawsuit. Fortunately it worked and i saved about 8k$ in | legal expenses. | MikeUt wrote: | What's needed is a general defense against frivolous lawsuits. | Something like a pre-trial phase where you're represented by a | free public defender, and only if the plaintiff wins, can they | move on to a "real" trial. | | Edit: I should add that this should not be used to punish the | plaintiff if they lose (or punish them very little), because that | would imperil legitimate lawsuits. If you had a valid case, would | you dare sue a multinational, if you knew losing the pre-trial | meant having to pay their overpriced team of lawyers*? | | *As an aside, the defendant should only be allowed the use of the | free, public defender in the pre-trial, otherwise this pre-trial | would be treated as just another full trial, with all the expense | that entails. | pitaj wrote: | What if we just got rid of copyright? Alternative forms of art | monetization already flourish. | jtbayly wrote: | And if they lose the pretrial, the plaintiff has to pay all of | what they were suing for to the defendant. | InitialLastName wrote: | That, or severe penalties, including reimbursement of all legal | costs and the voiding of all copyrights owned by a firm that is | found to be attempting to enforce copyright frivolously. | jotadambalakiri wrote: | Obligatory: https://github.com/ASCII-Rightholders/the_characters | bogwog wrote: | Only $1000 for the rights to use ASCII characters? That's a | steal! | jedberg wrote: | I just checked out their website. There is another website called | floorplans.com which I'm pretty sure is legit (they will sell you | construction plans) and I found some very similar designs between | the two. | | So Design Basics is either stealing their designs from elsewhere, | or as the article points out, their designs are so generic they | end up matching existing designs. | stefan_ wrote: | Remember there are people that spam Wikimedia and Flickr with | various CC-FZ-AT-UT-W2 licensed images, then use search engines | to identify misuse of their "work": | | https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Undeletion_reques... | mdasen wrote: | For those of us who don't know as much, could you elaborate? I | know "CC" is Creative Commons, but I don't know what FZ-AT- | UT-W2 are. | | From the link (which can be hard to grok for people like me who | are unfamiliar with Wikipedia processes), it looks like there | are users who upload images and mark them with a free license | and then try to sue people who re-use the photos on other sites | for minor infractions of the license terms. | | It seems that while the images may legitimately be licensed as | Creative Commons, the user takes a very strict view of the CC | licensing and sues people for minor infractions. "re-users have | complained about receiving costly cease and desist orders on | behalf of this Flickr-user for minor infractions of the | licensing terms." (https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?ti | tle=Commons:Admi...) Because the CC license's attribution | requirements can often be a bit hazy or difficult to comply | with, it makes it easy for someone to claim that the copyright | has been infringed for "minor" infractions. | | _You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the | license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in | any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the | licensor endorses you or your use._ | | That's some of the guidance from the CC license page. It would | be easy for someone to re-size the image and not indicate that | changes were made, not include the title of the work, etc. | There are whole pages about how you should attribute things | depending on what information is available: | https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/License_Versions#Detai... | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page#/media/File:Ryan_Cro... | | I'm literally looking at the featured photo from the "In the | News" section of English Wikipedia right now. It has an | attribution source of http://agenciabrasil.ebc.com.br/rio-2016/ | foto/2016-08/noite-..., but that page doesn't exist when I try | to view it. | | Looking at the "more details" page, it gets confusing. What is | the "title"? Do I have to duplicate author information if it's | in the title? Given that the photo, "has been extracted from | another file," I guess I'd have to cite both the original and | the derived work if I were to re-use it. | | Based on the attribution comparison chart, I think I'd have to | write something like: | | "This work, 'Ryan Crouser in 2016' (https://commons.wikimedia.o | rg/wiki/File:Ryan_Crouser_Rio_201...) by Materialscientist | (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Materialscientist) and | licensed under CC-BY 3.0 BR | (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/br/deed.en), is a | cropped version of 'Rio de Janeiro - Norte-americano Ryan | Crouser bate recorde olimpico e leva ouro no arremesso de peso | nos Jogos Rio 2016, no Estadio Olimpico. (Fernando | Frazao/Agencia Brasil)' (http://agenciabrasil.ebc.com.br/rio-20 | 16/foto/2016-08/noite-...) by Reporter Fotografico, Fernando | Frazao/Agencia Brasil used under CC-BY 3.0 BR | (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/br/deed.pt)." | | What if I just casually grabbed the photo and linked to the | Wikipedia page? I think most Wikipedia people would be like | "eh, close enough". I think some might send me an email being | like, "Could you please put my name next to the link? Thanks!" | | Oops, actually, my attribution is wrong! I haven't put in the | copyright notice which is, "EBC-EMPRESA BRASIL DE | COMUNICACAO/Agencia Brasil. Uso sob a Licenca Creative Commons | Atribuicao 3.0 Brasil. CREDITO FOTOGRAFICO OBRIGATORIO: | FERNANDO FRAZAO/AGENCIA BRASIL" | | Let me correct that: | | "This work, 'Ryan Crouser in 2016' (https://commons.wikimedia.o | rg/wiki/File:Ryan_Crouser_Rio_201...) by Materialscientist | (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Materialscientist) and | licensed under CC-BY 3.0 BR | (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/br/deed.en), is a | cropped version of 'Rio de Janeiro - Norte-americano Ryan | Crouser bate recorde olimpico e leva ouro no arremesso de peso | nos Jogos Rio 2016, no Estadio Olimpico. (Fernando | Frazao/Agencia Brasil)' (http://agenciabrasil.ebc.com.br/rio-20 | 16/foto/2016-08/noite-...) by Reporter Fotografico, Fernando | Frazao/Agencia Brasil used under CC-BY 3.0 BR | (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/br/deed.pt) with | the copyright notice, 'EBC-EMPRESA BRASIL DE | COMUNICACAO/Agencia Brasil. Uso sob a Licenca Creative Commons | Atribuicao 3.0 Brasil. CREDITO FOTOGRAFICO OBRIGATORIO: | FERNANDO FRAZAO/AGENCIA BRASIL'." | | DONE! Wait... the copyright notice specifies, "FOTOGRAFICO | OBRIGATORIO: FERNANDO FRAZAO/AGENCIA BRASIL", but the "author" | is listed as "Reporter Fotografico, Fernando Frazao/Agencia | Brasil". Do I go with the author as specified in the image or | with how the CREDITO specifies it? I'd think I should go with | how the CREDITO specifies it, but I definitely didn't see that | initially. | | For those that think I'm being pedantic, I am. However, as one | person noted: _As not all of you may know, the copyright law of | Germany and Austria allows the copyright-holder to issue a so- | called Abmahnung (sort of Cease and desist) against anyone who | in his opinion infringes his copyright, without first calling a | court. The typical cost of an Abmahnung is between 500 and 1200 | Euros for 1 image. As no court is involved, there is no | independant evaluation of the case. Many people pay the amount | requested in order to avoid going to court, as this might be | even more costly. IANAL._ (https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde | x.php?title=Commons:Admi...) | | I understand that maybe you could fight it and win in court. | However, the complexity of the attribution requirements do | allow a bad actor to be evil to people while claiming to be | legitimate. Given that users have been complaining that this is | actually happening, it's somewhat worrying. | | I'm not trying to sound negative about anything other than the | fact that it's easy for trolls to "well technically" people. If | I used the cropped Wikipedia photo and didn't note the | modification, but did properly attribute the title, author, and | original URI (which seems to be a dead link), am I using it | wrong? Well technically I would be since it was modified and I | didn't note that (and didn't provide credit to the modifier). | It would be an easy mistake to make: grab the author, title, | and URI from the Wikipedia page and I think I'm done! I think | most courts and the CC folks would be like, "c'mon, they put in | a good faith effort and yes they need to correct it, but they | shouldn't be subject to thousands of dollars in penalties!" | However, courts aren't cheap and there's a lot of risk. | ghaff wrote: | I'm willing to bet that, to a first approximation, even | people who go out of their way to credit photographers almost | never get the exact form of the attribution 100% correct. | | Furthermore, no one--including CC--understands what non- | commercial means. (There were protracted discussions on this | before CC 4.0 and CC basically punted.) For everyone who says | it's fine so long as you don't actually sell the photo, there | will be others who say you can't use it even on a little blog | that runs ads. And everything in between. | biztos wrote: | A friend of mine had the Abmahnung thing happen to her. | Accidentally included a photo without permission, in a batch | of photos she otherwise had permission for, in a portfolio of | architectural work. After a few years she got a claim for a | couple grand. | | She was lucky in that the request came from the actual | photographer, so she was able to negotiate a "fair" | settlement of about 400EUR IIRC, this was over 10 years ago. | | Thing is though, she at least understood she was in the | wrong. Try explaining to the average Instagram celebrity that | every single post is in fact a copy and you don't | automatically have permission to copy something just because | you saw it on the internet. I guess Facebook's legal | department just bats that stuff away or something. | nicbou wrote: | I was smacked by one of those: | https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/abmahnung-creative-commons | | I'm much more careful about which images I use since then, and | made a habit of releasing my own images with a CC0 licence. | eli wrote: | I can't prove it, but I'm pretty sure I saw someone post photos | to wikimedia under a CC license. But then later claim that | person was an imposter and wasn't authorized to do so. Now they | get to make claims against anyone who, in good faith, used the | wikimedia image believing it to be CC. | ttty2 wrote: | What if someone posts a copyrighted image on Facebook. Do they | sue Facebook and win? | | I think Facebook will take it down and that's the end of the | story. | | Maybe this only happens because it's Facebook and small players | can't afford to just take it down. | dahart wrote: | There was a story not too far back about some musicians | generating every possible combination of 8 notes and publishing | it in order to prevent future music copyright trolls. | | At the time I thought it was kind of a stunt and was a neat idea | but not addressing a real problem with music copyright and real | lawsuits. It looks like I might be totally wrong, because that's | exactly what Design Basics is doing. :/ | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22440944 | akudha wrote: | I guess the real problem is court cases can ruin people | financially, even if they win. Ideas like this are nice, but | the real solution would be to make it difficult for these | trolls to go to court in the first place | Igelau wrote: | We probably need this. | | I got whatever degree of nastygram that isn't a "strike" from | YouTube once for a video of me singing a 150 year-old folk song | from my own arrangement. Someone claimed to have copyright. I | didn't fight it in earnest, but _if_ I had a monetized account | that I was depending on financially, I might have had to -- and | of course, you pursue that at the hazard of losing your channel | and Google account. | | Got a C&D once for a text graphics Whac-a-mole clone in Basic | when I was a teenager. Kinda soured me on everything related to | IP rights going forward. | munk-a wrote: | Courts are actually pretty reasonable about music copyrights in | most cases[1] - nobody wants really strong copyrights in that | field anyways since "derivative" work is a really strong value | creator. | | 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgsL5yW3bao | nitin_flanker wrote: | There's a similar publication in 3D printing too. It's called | Joshua Pearce's Algorithm[0] which covers all the major | parameters and components of 3d printing materials and other | factors. | | It was built with an intention to invalidate 3D printing | patents that cover broad elements and general materials and | ideas, on the grounds of obviousness. | | [0] | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01722... | manuelabeledo wrote: | Just for fun, I searched for a plan loosely similar to my current | home. Found an almost perfect match, including the facade, in | less than ten seconds. | | This is the equivalent of taking photographs of thousands of | vehicles in existence, then claiming intellectual property over | their design. Nonsense. | cwkoss wrote: | IP laws were created to encourage innovation, but have perverted | to the point where now they are mostly used by people hoping to | suppress it or seek rent from others' work. | | Patent duration should be shortened to 10 years or less. | Copyright duration should be shortened to 5 years or less. | | The digital age is moving faster than the people who wrote these | laws anticipated. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-06-23 23:00 UTC)