[HN Gopher] Teaching open-source software in North Korea
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Teaching open-source software in North Korea
Author : jackpirate
Score : 135 points
Date : 2021-06-24 16:47 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (izbicki.me)
(TXT) w3m dump (izbicki.me)
| IngvarLynn wrote:
| The fates of many american useful idiots in USSR are quite gloom
| - serving tens of years in siberian camps. Mike should've read
| the black book of communism instead of bible.
| the_af wrote:
| I find it interesting that, according to the article and in 2016
| at least, North Korean graduate students had unfiltered internet
| access! Probably monitored, and it mentions they were forbidden
| from creating accounts in social media platforms, but still...
| unfiltered access!
|
| This tells me there's a lot we don't know about NK. Lots of
| people seem to assume maximum oppression/censorship by default,
| when the reality might be more nuanced.
| gambiting wrote:
| I mean....obviously it's not quite the same, but there are
| plenty of people who think that in the former Soviet Union and
| its republics people had no idea about what the West was up to.
| That again couldn't be further from the truth - there was loads
| of smuggled in media, magazines, books, movies with home made
| dubs, people listened to forbidden radio stations.....yeah all
| of it was highly illegal and you could get in serious trouble
| for it, but people absolutely still did it. I have no doubt
| that similar things are happening in North Korea right now.
| shard wrote:
| Did the people in the Soviet Union think that the smuggled
| media was propaganda? I remember the story about Boris
| Yelchin visiting a US supermarket, being amazed at the all
| the products available, and thinking that it was a fake store
| set up to impress him at first.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"Did the people in the Soviet Union think that the
| smuggled media was propaganda"
|
| I was born in the USSR. No we did not think that the media
| was propaganda. At least most of the people I knew. And
| USSR's own propaganda was so cheesy that it was not
| believable to normal people. My parents were scientists and
| I also studied in university and had become scientist
| myself. So my experience might be somewhat not all
| encompassing because of the environment.
|
| What I do find now is that the amount of corporate, media
| and government propaganda in the west is insane and is as
| cheesy as the one of former USSR.
|
| Also the amount of venom and paranoia in this thread is
| depressing.
| _joel wrote:
| One of my favourites I heard about from that era -
| https://www.npr.org/2016/01/09/462289635/bones-and-
| grooves-w...
| emodendroket wrote:
| Alek Sigley eventually got in trouble for it and had to leave,
| but before that he wrote a lot of articles on daily life for
| (admittedly privileged, given that he was in Pyongyang and at a
| university) people in North Korea.
| dblock wrote:
| I grew up in the USSR. There were multiple layers of the
| system. I was somewhere in the middle with my father being a
| well known poetry translator and grandfather writing
| propaganda. We listened to the BBC and Voice of America without
| reprimand, because of our status. Neighbors would face serious
| consequences for this. At 12 I was sent to the US to understand
| how capitalism is harmful. I think North Korea is making the
| same bet of creating a system in which some know all the truth
| and still work for the regime.
| xxpor wrote:
| >At 12 I was sent to the US to understand how capitalism is
| harmful.
|
| Did they think that would work?
| einpoklum wrote:
| Well, it's not that difficult to understand why (the US
| brand of) capitalism is harmful by wandering around the US
| for a while.
|
| ... problem is, it may not help convince you that Stalinism
| / "Actually existing Socialism" is the answer. (In case you
| don't recognize this term:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism)
| fooker wrote:
| Maybe. Should be enough to look at just healthcare, at
| least nowadays.
| reader_mode wrote:
| Compared to USSR which had people resorting to
| cannibalism due to starvation ?
| dblock wrote:
| I think so. But if anything I learned to be wary of
| propaganda on both sides.
| gwern wrote:
| People have monitored activity from North Korean IP ranges.
| There's more than you think!
|
| Of course, this sort of unfiltered access is still extremely
| restricted: these are the children of the elite, the literally
| hereditary elite caste (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun),
| who are investments for the state for being sent abroad for the
| hacking campaigns
| (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-
| ki...) or for the domestic surveillance apparatus. ( _Someone_
| is developing all of the clever ways they have to restrict and
| monitor smartphones:
| https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2017-kretchun.pdf And
| it'll keep going. 'Reducing traffic jams' my arse. But at least
| we have more 'transparency' now...)
|
| They are granted access for that purpose, and they know their
| families' welfare and positions are hostage, and are in no
| hurry to jeopardize their charmed lives in Pyongyang. You don't
| live in Pyongyang, be taught English, go through university
| there through to a master's, without absolutely impeccable
| credentials and a lot to lose. It is unsurprising that they
| rarely 'abuse' that privilege. (Think of the closed cities in
| the USSR, or shopping at the foreign-currency stores, or travel
| abroad.)
| known wrote:
| Sounds like
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
| Clewza313 wrote:
| Nice story, but GitHub is prohibited by the US OFAC sanctions
| regime from offering service to North Korea:
|
| https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-and-tra...
|
| Intentional violations of these sanctions can be punished with
| prison time.
| k__ wrote:
| How would they put people from NK into prison?
| detaro wrote:
| Sanction violations are a crime for the people from the US
| involved.
| k__ wrote:
| Is telling NK people to use GitHub already a crime?
| nichch wrote:
| Wouldn't it be the duty of the platform in this situation?
| k__ wrote:
| In that scenario, at least there would be some US
| citizens to put into prison.
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| I want everybody to stop, shake themselves, and realize
| how "absolutely insane" this situation is. True or not,
| we're talking about prison time for helping people write
| open source code.
|
| This isn't normal, but everyone's talking about it like
| it's normal.
|
| Anyway! Carry on. :)
| mhh__ wrote:
| That may well be true but consider going to the German's
| and teaching them about Radar in the lead up to the war -
| that's the logic at least.
| andi999 wrote:
| I would almost be more worried as a scientist to give a lecture
| in NK, I mean do you not need export control approval for that
| (although maybe he got the approval)
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| You do. Virgil Griffith is facing criminal charges for doing
| just that.
| ev1 wrote:
| Aren't there additional issues with that like if you pay
| for a flight or hotel or restaurant, you're effectively
| "supporting the regime" with your dollars, and therefore
| it's illegal under sanctions too?
| caymanjim wrote:
| This was the case in Cuba. You could visit if you sailed
| yourself there and didn't spend any money, but as soon as
| you engaged in any commerce, you were violating
| sanctions. I believe the rules have been relaxed.
| throwaway4good wrote:
| Chinese Gitee have mirrors of most (all?) of the open source
| projects on Github.
| richardwhiuk wrote:
| Indeed - for any open-source project to accept contributions
| from North Korea risks opening up a minefield of problems.
| sneak wrote:
| Why's that?
| richardwhiuk wrote:
| Because of trade restrictions and embargos.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Well, because who wants to do business with a "regime".
| Think of the implications!
|
| Good countries have governments and that is totally
| different.
|
| Sorry, couldn't resist
| imhoguy wrote:
| So we should block nearly half of the World population
| for not being in democracy [0]?
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regime
| beebeepka wrote:
| I guess exclamation marks are no longer considered a good
| indicator of sarcasm
| [deleted]
| emodendroket wrote:
| Depends on how friendly their relations are with the
| United States, is our operating principle at the moment
| bouncycastle wrote:
| There's currently one open source software dev / researcher in
| the US who's facing prison time after talking about open source
| software at a conference in North Korea. His name is Virgil
| Griffith. The speech he gave was nothing more than information
| that was already public.
|
| He's also known for the WikiScanner.
|
| More details here:
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbrett/2020/01/11/internet-...
|
| His personal home page http://virgil.gr/
| xxpor wrote:
| I mean I don't think he should be thrown in jail for that,
| but you can't just go do that and not expect to get in
| trouble. Sanction violations are something the feds take
| extremely seriously. It's one of the few ways to actually get
| the corporate death penalty if you're a company.
| netr0ute wrote:
| > Sanction violations are something the feds take extremely
| seriously.
|
| This is just FUD.
| frisco wrote:
| ?
| netr0ute wrote:
| While it's true, the level you would have to be at to
| have to worry about sanctions puts you into "too big to
| fail" territory.
| frisco wrote:
| The point of the above posts though is that Virgil
| Griffith is probably going to prison because he wasn't
| paying attention to sanctions though? Or, the case of
| Meng Wanzhou who is a Chinese citizen who avoided
| connecting flights through the US and was arrested in
| Canada anyway for violating trade sanctions with Iran?
| netr0ute wrote:
| That's a problem and likely isn't going to go away unless
| something big happens with the political system, like
| maybe a third party taking over.
| yur3i__ wrote:
| >GitHub is prohibited by the US OFAC sanctions regime from
| offering service to North Korea
|
| Surely Github would have blocked the range of north korean IP
| addresses if it was illegal?
| tasogare wrote:
| This is one of the reasons I wish there was more bigger
| European companies. Then we wouldn't need to deal with the
| bullshit US sanctions and cancel culture.
| tpush wrote:
| Neither political sanctions nor 'cancel culture' are unique
| to the US.
| yur3i__ wrote:
| I'm not sure I've heard sanctions on enemy states described
| as "cancel culture" before, nor am I sure it applies
| tasogare wrote:
| Those are not the same. I'm referring to two problematic
| things with US companies: in one hand sanctions, in the
| other political censorship based on "woke" biais. Some
| French politicians got/are being canceled by Twitter and
| Facebook for their political opinions. This is a big
| problem for democracy.
| cycrutchfield wrote:
| If your "political opinions" violate a platform's terms
| of service, what do you expect should happen?
| estaseuropano wrote:
| S/he is expexting exactly that to happen and thus is
| hoping for more European players so its not all US-values
| that are being pushed, i.e. glorification of violence and
| prudish shaming/banning of such normal things as
| breastfeeding.
| Datagenerator wrote:
| These 'enemies' are fellow humans too right?
| yur3i__ wrote:
| I didn't say I agreed with them, just "cancel culture" is
| a bit of a trivialization
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| > This is one of the reasons I wish there was more bigger
| European companies. Then we wouldn't need to deal with the
| bullshit US sanctions and cancel culture.
|
| I'm afraid you'd simply get wound up in their own national
| policy and need to peep through keyholes.
|
| Pretty wild on github to see national policy kinks worm their
| way through the system. What happens if it's hosted in a
| neutral country?
| xvilka wrote:
| I wonder if moving HQ to Switzerland would have helped.
| [deleted]
| pattusk wrote:
| I think these provisions came after the patch was pushed to
| Github back in 2016.
|
| I remember that when the Github rules related to US sanctions
| were first posted there was a lot of backlash here on HN from
| Iranian developers and it must have been 2017~2018.
|
| Doesn't mean it wasn't illegal before but at least Github
| didn't seem to be enforcing it.
|
| Also the class was likely at PUST (https://en.wikipedia.org/wik
| i/Pyongyang_University_of_Scienc...) which is operated with US
| funds and likely had clearance to teach that sort of material.
| ckja wrote:
| This is why open source projects should not be on GitHub and
| not in the US.
|
| The same applies to foundations, though some of them seem to
| have adopted similar tactics as the North Korean party anyway.
| xxpor wrote:
| If you deal in US dollars, you're subject to US sanctions
| laws. Hint: if you ever convert between currencies, unless
| you're EXTREMELY careful, you're actually going X -> USD ->
| Y.
|
| It took the EU multiple years to setup a facility so they
| could provide euros to Iran without falling afoul of US
| sanctions during the Trump admin.
| Bostonian wrote:
| North Korea does have a nuclear weapons program that much of the
| rest of the world would like to hinder. What tech restrictions on
| North Korea make sense?
|
| I remember that when Fortran compilers were sold on CD-ROM that
| the packaging of Digital Visual Fortran said the compiler was not
| for resale to North Korea and maybe Iran.
|
| Now Fortran, C, and C++ compilers that would be used in modeling
| nuclear bombs are open source, and I don't think people in any
| country can be stopped from accessing them, as a practical
| matter.
| SiempreViernes wrote:
| Since they already have working nukes and they can credibly
| nuke South Korea and Japan, it's not clear what the point is in
| trying to restrict access now.
|
| The best that can be achieved now is that they can't kill
| people in DC, which I'm not sure is worth so much to people in
| Tokyo that you can get them to sign on to your sanctions
| regime.
| caymanjim wrote:
| The regime actively engages in digital espionage and criminal
| hacking behavior. It's a source of revenue for the
| government.
| SiempreViernes wrote:
| Sure, but unless you claim their nuclear program is mostly
| funded directly by the hacking this is not a particularly
| targeted sanction. If you insist on targeting just their
| general economy it's probably better to go after coal or
| chemicals.
|
| In any case, the OP was obviously talking about which
| technology should be denied for the purpose of it not being
| directly used to construct a bomb. To reply "we should deny
| them money" is quite beside the point.
| btdmaster wrote:
| Would
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_we...
| suggest that, if technical restrictions are necessary for NK,
| they are a life-or-death situation in the case of the US and
| Russia? Of course, these statistics may not be entirely
| accurate but we are talking of a difference of 2 orders of
| magnitude in the number of warheads.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Russia is bound by non-proliferation laws and accepts
| international observers to its nuclear objects, so no.
|
| A lot of difference between rogue nuclear state, and a member
| of the club.
| kleton wrote:
| > The reason--as it was explained to me--is because the United
| States controls most internet infrastructure (including websites
| like Twitter), and through programs like the NSA's PRISM and the
| Army's Cyber Command is spying on and manipulating social media.
|
| Not exactly false
| dng88 wrote:
| Supporting totalitarian countries from North Korea to china,
| great.
| dng88 wrote:
| It is not just legal aspects. There are reason why it was
| sanctioned.
|
| Supporting totalitarian countries, great. Provide the guys who
| can ... tools and whilst you and their own people cannot stop
| them. Great!
|
| Glory to the supreme leader.
| jollybean wrote:
| There is a 100% chance this tech will be used to surveil, subdue
| and repress people in draconian ways.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| So exactly the same as in the USA and every other major
| developed nation in the world, then?
| jollybean wrote:
| No, the opposite of what you stated.
| jkbbwr wrote:
| You do realise that the US is literally rolling out wide
| spread facial recognition software as we speak, NK doesn't
| hold the monopoly on being an authoratarian hellhole.
| jollybean wrote:
| You do realize that the US has a functioning justice
| system, and there is a difference between security and
| suppression?
| damagednoob wrote:
| After listening to The Lazarus heist[1] I find it hard to have
| sympathy for Izbicki's position. Children are recruited into
| computer science from a young age in NK with the express purpose
| of furthering the state's objectives. Mainly by funding the
| regime and circumventing sanctions by engaging in hacking.
| There's a good chance he's helping train the next generation.
|
| 1: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57520169
| cs02rm0 wrote:
| I'm conflicted on this type of problem. The bit I particularly
| struggle with is the alternative - if we don't go there and
| attempt to break down the barriers with ordinary people, what
| hope is there for the country? Just sit tight and wait until
| the next dictator dies and hope they're of a more lenient
| disposition? They're not going to invite us in for lectures on
| political education.
|
| It's not the same, I'm not suggesting it is, but I do see
| parallels with Saudi Arabia (I bring it up because I've lived
| there). And while the guy at the top is as unsavoury as it gets
| I do think the presence of Westerners has been a positive
| influence and the few steps we've seen to let women drive,
| cinemas open, etc. I'd put down in small part to that presence
| influencing the general population. And in another perhaps not
| so small part down to the internet. And that's a country we
| sell proper weapons to, not just machine learning classes.
|
| I get that there's a fairly direct line that can be drawn to
| negative consequences in engaging with such states, but these
| things are inherently messy and there's a long game to play
| here.
| briandear wrote:
| These aren't ordinary people. These are carefully vetted
| people. Teaching these students advanced computing is quite
| literally bolstering the regime.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| I do not understand downvoting to your post.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| >if we don't go there and attempt to break down the barriers
| with ordinary people, what hope is there for the country?
|
| Giving teaching to oppressing elite is not breaking barriers
| with ordinary people. It's making those barriers between
| elite and ordinary people even stronger. Your only hope is to
| 'smuggle' good ideas and books about freedom values,
| democracy and even more valuable the truth about what is
| going on.
| gumby wrote:
| This kind of thing was an issue in the USSR as well (at least
| in athletics, chess and the like). I do believe that the
| countries' policies of some cultural and scientific interchange
| did reduce tensions and risks.
| mhoad wrote:
| That is actually very clearly what is happening here. This
| combined with the "unfiltered internet access" claim all
| clearly points in an obvious direction. Repressive and
| notoriously paranoid regimes are not in the business of doing
| something like that out of the goodness of their hearts.
|
| They do however rapidly need to build out and further expand
| their cyber power because it's one of the few winning
| strategies they have at the moment and has allowed them to
| become one of the big players in that space.
|
| Those networks may be "unfiltered" but they are monitored. This
| entire thing is a giant loyalty test to the party.
|
| You need a way to filter out the "true believers" from everyone
| who could pose a threat to the future stability of the regime.
| But nobody who works in or around this space would see anything
| other than a giant counterintelligence operation happening
| under the guise of "unfiltered" internet access.
| JPKab wrote:
| Engaging in teaching these kinds of skills in a nation like
| North Korea is inherently aiding the state and continuing the
| oppression of its people.
|
| You are completely correct about your suspicion about primarily
| furthering the objectives of the state.
|
| I am always saddened by the naive do-gooders who don't get
| this, and devote energy to making the world a worse place when
| they implicitly think they are doing the opposite.
| dvdkon wrote:
| So would you say that the best strategy to making North Korea
| a better place would be to make the lives of North Koreans as
| miserable as possible, destabilising the country? It might
| work, but it seems antithetical to the original goal of
| helping people.
| Google234 wrote:
| The best strategy is to leave them alone until their
| government collapse.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| > the best strategy to making North Korea a better place
| would be to make the lives of North Koreans as miserable as
| possible, destabilising the country?
|
| I see here hidden false assumption that helping North Korea
| is making lives of North Koreans less miserable.
|
| The main cause of all problems for North Koreans is this
| totalitarian regime and those who support it. They suffer
| from that! Not from your actions. So destabilising the
| country is attacking the core of their problem and thus
| helping North Korea people. Supporting the regime is
| prolonging their sufferings. This regime should fall
| inevitably and there is no other way to help people of
| North Korea people so the only question is when and how.
| the_af wrote:
| > _The main cause of all problems for North Koreans is
| this totalitarian regime and those who support it. They
| suffer from that! Not from your actions. So destabilising
| the country is attacking the core of their problem and
| thus helping North Korea people._
|
| Please! No more of this line of reasoning, it has caused
| suffering and damage time and time again.
|
| Don't recommend that others endure that which you and
| your loved ones are not willing to endure. Before
| claiming a country must be blockaded, starved and bombed
| into submission "for its own good", consider whether you
| would welcome that blockade, destabilization and bombs if
| they were falling on your roof and possibly killing your
| loved ones.
| dblock wrote:
| This is extremely shortsighted. Educated people are a lot
| harder to exploit. One of these students might one day lead the
| kind of change we've seen in numerous examples through history.
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| There was a cadre of Chinese students who were educated
| abroad to be diplomats. The program was scrapped when it was
| found the students wound up pro-democracy. They do something
| else now, but it is not clear if it works. Party loyalty
| enforced by the state ignoring your corruption seems likely,
| as proposed elsewhere.
| sbuttgereit wrote:
| > Educated people are a lot harder to exploit.
|
| If you're trying to talk someone into something, sure. But if
| all you really mean to do is get someone's compliance where
| you want it and silence otherwise, I would think a realistic
| threat of thuggery trumps education an overwhelming majority
| of the time. I also wouldn't be surprised if education was
| limited to those that were considered "reliable", with vested
| interests in perpetuating the system.
| SiempreViernes wrote:
| Revolution by vested interests against other bits of the
| vested interests is basically the short story of how
| countries in latin america got independence from spain.
| JPKab wrote:
| This comment clearly shows an absolute blatant ignorance of
| anything to do with North Korea.
|
| I would recommend that you educate yourself on what North
| Korea actually is and how deeply oppressive it is.
|
| Anyone in North Korea who has access to a computer is in the
| highest caste in their system. You are born into this caste,
| and it's based on the interviews that were done of North
| Korean people in the 1950s. Families were classified into
| hostile, wavering, or supporters of the communist revolution.
| These classifications were made primarily on the basis of
| occupation and other factors that were indicators of whether
| they were in a higher economic class or were more of a
| proletariat.
|
| In short the only people who are going to learn anything
| about software North Korea are part of the class that is
| oppressing most of the nation. Another thing that you
| certainly aren't aware of is the fact that people in the
| lowest caste are literally prevented from traveling into any
| of the North Korean cities and are relegated to a portion in
| the Northeast and aren't even allowed to be anywhere near a
| border where they could potentially escape into China or SK.
|
| Stating that something is shortsighted should be based on
| some knowledge of the nation you are talking about.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| On the other hand what we see in Russia is reincarnation for
| ussr and now with more powerful tools for oppression. Also
| look at China and how oppressive monster become stronger
| without changing it's values toward respecting freedom.
|
| Giving power without changing values is helping the worst
| kind of people to be stronger. It can fireback and it does.
| The worst censorship practices of China are now trying ot
| make it's way to the West.
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(page generated 2021-06-26 23:01 UTC)