[HN Gopher] Cwtch: Decentralized, privacy-preserving, multi-part...
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Cwtch: Decentralized, privacy-preserving, multi-party messaging
protocol
Author : homarp
Score : 67 points
Date : 2021-06-26 16:19 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (cwtch.im)
(TXT) w3m dump (cwtch.im)
| anotheryou wrote:
| Can it handle multiple devices of the same account?
| detaro wrote:
| According to the FAQ on the linked page, not yet.
| julienreszka wrote:
| damn I can't even imagine the level of autism of those who
| decided that cwtch is an ok name, interesting product tho
| udia wrote:
| How does this compare with something like Matrix, which also does
| decentralized encrypted communications? https://matrix.org/
| sarahjamielewis wrote:
| Hi Sarah from Open Privacy / Cwtch team here - the main major
| difference is that Cwtch servers are completely untrusted under
| the risk model - they don't learn anything about the groups
| they are hosting, who is a member of which group, or who each
| message is for.
|
| The design for groups is still in flux, and they are marked
| experimental but there are a few more details in our Secure
| Development Handbook https://docs.openprivacy.ca/cwtch-
| security-handbook/groups.h...
|
| Metadata resistant group comms is still a fairly large open
| research problem, and we are also working on the research side
| to reduce some of the bandwidth requirements that are currently
| required by our group protocol:
| https://git.openprivacy.ca/openprivacy/niwl
| bjt2n3904 wrote:
| Interesting project! I've been looking for something to
| replace Signal, and this scratches an itch.
|
| I see that you're using Tor to route messages? How would
| mobile devices fair with Tor connections when they go to
| sleep?
| sarahjamielewis wrote:
| On Android we implement a background service that will wake
| up periodically and either use the active tor connection or
| start a new one if the kernel has stopped it for any reason
| - and also reconnects the UI. This makes Cwtch connections
| fairly stable on android devices - even for p2p.
|
| However, it also means that Cwtch on Android is fairly
| battery intensive. We provide a way to easily shutdown
| Cwtch completely for this reason - and we are researching
| ways to minimize power consumption (both through tor
| optimizations and alternative anonymous communication
| networks)
| kitkat_new wrote:
| how will it compare to P2P Matrix?
| dane-pgp wrote:
| I'm wondering that too, or specifically how it compares to
| Matrix run as a Tor hidden service, which is apparently
| possible:
|
| https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/2111#issuecomme...
| remram wrote:
| I'm not sure if Cootch is federated, like Matrix, or peer-to-
| peer. I assume the first, if Tor is being used?
|
| Berry also sounds similar, although it is not released yet:
| https://berty.tech/
| celticninja wrote:
| It's Cwtch, pronounced more like Cutch than Cootch
|
| Edit. Cutch was supposed to be more of a phonetic way to
| pronounce it as opposed to a word with a similar sound.
| some_furry wrote:
| Like "clutch" without the "L"?
| celticninja wrote:
| Close. This is from the homepage:
|
| How do I pronounce Cwtch? Like "kutch", to rhyme with
| "butch".
|
| In common use you might say "Cwtch in" to mean "snuggle
| in" or "cuddle in close'
| some_furry wrote:
| That is a really damn cute name
| [deleted]
| remram wrote:
| I don't know how either "butch" or "cutch" is pronounced.
| You might want to offer a common word for people who did
| not grow up in America...
|
| edit: butcher?
| celticninja wrote:
| This may help, although I would have thought butch was
| common enough. E.g. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=define+butch&oq=define+bu
| tch...
| celticninja wrote:
| Yes, butch is like butcher but without the "er"
| sneak wrote:
| Android and desktop only, so most people I know won't be able to
| use it on the only device they message on.
| mindstab wrote:
| Maybe talk to Apple, whom have made it increasingly hard to
| theoretically impossible for our type of privacy preserving app
| to run on iOS. We aren't the first, and Brair has been around a
| bit longer and has run into the same problem.
|
| https://briarproject.org/news/2018-1.0-released-new-funding/
|
| https://code.briarproject.org/briar/briar/-/issues/445
|
| As an even smaller team with less funding, we have so far
| decided it would be irresponsible to risk sinking a sizable
| portion of our limited funds into trying to port to iOS when it
| may be impossible.
|
| But if you really want it, please, donate, we need iphones,
| macs, dev accounts and budget for the research and work!
| sneak wrote:
| Talking to Apple won't change the circumstance that I am
| alluding to, which is that most people willingly opt for
| closed, centrally censored platforms.
|
| You can't solve this problem at the application layer.
| some_furry wrote:
| If you're speaking about iOS, the dev just tweeted this:
| https://twitter.com/SarahJamieLewis/status/14088573160870584...
|
| > The answer to why is there no Mac/iOS version of Cwtch / why
| does Cwtch not have feature X is that last year we raised only
| a fraction of our donation target. You can help change that!
|
| > @OpenPriv is powered by hundreds of individual donors just
| like you!
|
| > https://openprivacy.ca/donate/
| sneak wrote:
| They are competing with Signal (and also every other insecure
| messenger like WhatsApp and Telegram), and Signal already
| exists.
|
| Cross-platform support is table stakes for a messenger. This
| will likely go the way of Ricochet.
| brutal_chaos_ wrote:
| Decentralized vs Centralized is the competition. Cross
| platform is a goal, but, I believe, user privacy comes
| first for Cwtch.
| lucb1e wrote:
| A bit tangential but I'd be honestly curious how many people
| use iOS _and_ explicitly value their privacy. Everyone has
| something to hide so we all care implicitly to a certain extent
| obviously, but for the real nuts (that includes myself),
| Android is the only OS where you get to both have the freedom
| to turn things off as you please (at the flip of a setting for
| most manufacturers, at least) as well as install regular
| applications. A Linux phone is fun and all, but much less
| practical.
|
| With iOS you have to either be a leading expert in
| vulnerability research or hope that someone else finds a
| serious security issue in your operating system, leave it
| unpatched, and then exploit it yourself to get proper access
| and control your device.
|
| I'd trust Apple more than Google to do the right thing any day
| of the week, but they're not some foundation with a mission.
| Cutting Apple out of your data is a lot harder on an Apple than
| it is to cut Google out on Google's platform.
| some_furry wrote:
| First impression: I created an account on desktop and on mobile.
| I used the same display name and password in both cases. I got
| two different addresses. Good.
|
| I don't see any means to copy an identity across the boundary
| (e.g. with Telegram, I can participate in the same conversation
| as the same identity from multiple devices).
|
| Which means one of two things happens:
|
| 1. Users are encouraged to use on dedicated device for all
| private communications.
|
| 2. If users want multi-device, they have to leak facts about
| their setup (one public key per device) to the people they're
| talking to.
|
| (This isn't a criticism; I'm just observing the user experience.)
| geoah wrote:
| Really like the idea behind this. The basic premise is really
| interesting: Conversation between two people is direct p2p
| through tor, while groups require a server that people need to
| host. It's a really interesting middle ground between having to
| trust a single party with all your conversations and making
| everything truly p2p.
| kodablah wrote:
| Easy to get around residential ISP NAT issues too. It's really
| easy for any software to start a local ephemeral onion service
| on Tor on their local machine and have it reachable worldwide
| in a couple seconds.
|
| I'm a fan of this project and have been watching it for a
| while. It is my hope that more self-at-home-hosted options pop
| up in this space around Tor onion services.
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _...self-at-home-hosted options pop up in this space around
| Tor onion services._
|
| See also: https://github.com/agl/pond
|
| With Snowflake bridges, apps can now connect to the Tor
| network from within a browser.
|
| Ref: https://snowflake.torproject.org/
| kodablah wrote:
| Shameless plug, I also wrote a simple lib that makes onion
| services easy: https://github.com/cretz/bine (OP's project
| uses a fork of it and I plan on putting more time into it
| soon)
| sanity31415 wrote:
| Tor isn't really P2P since messages need to go through Tor's
| network of routers.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| The whole internet requires that any connection traverses
| numerous switches and routers. Unless you're pointing a
| microwave antenna at the destination to deliver your packets,
| the distinction here is pointless.
| generalizations wrote:
| My first thought as well, since tor is built around the idea
| of bouncing connections around the network.
|
| But "p2p" still makes sense, if we just consider tor a black
| box.
| cortesoft wrote:
| So nothing on the internet is peer to peer, since you have to
| go through ISP's network of routers?
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Wait, why do we dislike Signal?
|
| I'm always late to the secure comm party...
|
| EDIT: Got it, Cwtch is decentralized p2p, Signal ain't. Thanks!
| lucb1e wrote:
| Not merely centralized, but also openly hostile to
| decentralization. Going so far as to hold talks about why
| decentralization is a bad thing for a chat app. I also never
| heard a rebuttal to this claim of Wire's:
|
| > Moxie et al have publicly stated that they want wide adoption
| of the Axolotl [Signal] protocol -- but if you do an
| independent implementation, using the published reference
| documentation and background knowledge from having seen their
| code online, you can be accused of copyright infringement and
| asked to pay a "license fee."
|
| Or that fiasco with integrating a shitcoin in the application:
| https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/signal.html
|
| I'm on Signal because of the network effect and its
| reliability, and I actively invite people to use it over things
| like Telegram, but I do wish we had a better alternative.
| Matrix (Element) is buggy, Threema people need to pay for, Jami
| and this Tor-based chat app (I forget the name) don't have the
| features people expect, Wire is a good contestant but also not
| decentralized (nor does it have fancy things like sealed
| sender), and of course nobody has the network effect that
| Signal has... no good alternatives.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| DeltaChat?
| MarcelProust wrote:
| Signal requires a phone number for contact discovery, which
| many people have given out about because it's tied to your
| meatspace identity, so it's harder to be anonymous with Signal.
| ludamad wrote:
| Signal is encrypted and likes to show off how little they
| store, but it is not decentralized. Not being decentralized has
| many advantages, but a paranoid enough approach does see it as
| a point of failure for security (I use and love Signal, fyi)
| drdaeman wrote:
| My understanding is that Signal is centralized, and this is
| not. That's an important difference.
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| "Cootch"?
|
| Really?
| vr46 wrote:
| No, not really. It's Welsh for "Hug".
| remram wrote:
| The competitors found that "Riot" was too controversial a name
| for popular adoption... good luck to "Cootch"...
| celticninja wrote:
| No, not really. It more like Kutch.
|
| They have a section as follows:
|
| How do I pronounce Cwtch? Like "kutch", to rhyme with "butch".
|
| Just scroll down the homepage
| sschueller wrote:
| Many words have some not ideal meaning in another language. We
| (Switzerland) have cities with names that in other languages
| mean male genitalia yet we are not going to rename them.
| giantrobot wrote:
| The township of Dickcocknbahls is not going to abandon their
| proud heritage due to prudish Anglophones!
| retube wrote:
| No. It's Welsh
| noxer wrote:
| Crashed with no message within the first 30 seconds clicking
| around on the UI (windows build)
|
| I'll try again in a year or so if it still exists.
| kgraves wrote:
| Why do we need decentralisation in a chat app?
| max1cc wrote:
| Haven't looked in to this properly yet but already in love with
| the name!
| geoah wrote:
| From their faq.
|
| > How do I pronounce Cwtch? Like "kutch", to rhyme with "butch".
|
| > Cwtch (/kUtS/ - a Welsh word roughly translating to "a hug that
| creates a safe place") is a decentralized, privacy-preserving,
| multi-party messaging protocol that can be used to build metadata
| resistant applications
| canadaduane wrote:
| Such an odd word. My 1-second judgment of it sent me in an
| entirely different direction: cthulhu, witch, crotch. I wonder
| if the emotional gap between cover and contents will be a
| problem.
| Mizza wrote:
| Cwtch is an important word in Welsh, like hyggelig in Danish
| or koselig in Norwegian, etc. It's kind of a "national
| identity" word, you see it on tourist souvenirs.
| ljm wrote:
| It's a word from another language, what purpose would a 1
| second judgment like that serve when the post you're replying
| to already explains that it's Welsh?
| celticninja wrote:
| It is a word from the Welsh language, so it may seem weird to
| someone unfamiliar with the language.
| hkt wrote:
| Your name couldn't be more appropriate unless it was
| "brythonicninja"
| r721 wrote:
| Twitter thread from a dev:
| https://twitter.com/SarahJamieLewis/status/14085012588523110...
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(page generated 2021-06-26 23:00 UTC)