[HN Gopher] Heat dome causing record breaking heat wave ___________________________________________________________________ Heat dome causing record breaking heat wave Author : goesup12 Score : 156 points Date : 2021-06-30 21:01 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.severe-weather.eu) (TXT) w3m dump (www.severe-weather.eu) | throwawaysea wrote: | There have been some previous discussions on HN about this | weather event in the Pacific Northwest, for example | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27670739 | | One thing I want to mention is that it is not known if this heat | wave is caused by climate change or not. A UW professor named | Cliff Mass, who specializes in climate science and has written | books about the weather of the Pacific Northwest, has | specifically said | (https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2021/06/incredible- | temperatur...): | | > Is global warming contributing to this heatwave? The answer is | certainly yes. Would we have had a record heatwave without global | warming. The answer is yes as well. | | He also said in the same article: | | > Let me end with the golden rule of temperature extremes: the | bigger the temperature extreme the SMALLER the contribution of | global warming. Think about that. | angst_ridden wrote: | The thing is, this is a chaotic effect of the jet stream going | into tighter oscillations. Think of a river in a flat area | meandering more and more until oxbows form. It's an analogous | phenomenon with the jet stream and pressure. The jet stream | tends to follow warmer air, which means increased temperatures | overall give a "flatter" plain to meander on, to return to the | analogy. Obviously, like anything, it's far more complex than | the analogy permits. | throwawayuw wrote: | Throwaway as well because I've worked with Cliff Mass and am | not interested in being at the receiving end of the retaliation | that he's known for doling out. | | Cliff is kind of a pariah among meteorologists and climate | scientists. He _loves_ that fact, and revels in this idea that | he's the lone genius who got it right while the rest of the | community got it wrong on climate change. But he's not viewed | as someone who makes credible statements, particularly as they | pertain to questions about climate. | | Many of his blog posts are deliberately misleading or contain | incorrect information. Others I'd categorize as "You're not | wrong... you're just an asshole." He has a decent understanding | of some of the meteorological phenomena that are unique to the | Puget Sound region, but even there I take every word he writes | with a grain of salt. Sure, read his blog to understand how the | snow is going to be this weekend at Crystal. But I'd leave it | at that. | Lammy wrote: | Maybe it's time to start talking about ways humanity can geo- | engineer our way out of this instead of just sitting here waiting | to suffer. The US Air Force has been interested in this topic for | decades, but there's no way to know how viable any of that | research actually is. Some of the speculative documents I've read | propose using carbon black dust as a way to artificially reflect | heat, like | https://web.archive.org/web/19970429012543/http://www.au.af.... | andrewmcwatters wrote: | The Matrix! | Lammy wrote: | I wish that was what they meant by "VR WX -- Virtual Weather" | :p | riffic wrote: | One of the more compelling geoengineering strategies I've seen | discussed has been Olivine weathering: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivine | splittingTimes wrote: | "All the CO2 that is produced by burning one liter of oil can | be sequestered by less than one liter of olivine." [1]. | | Given that formulation I assume that the amount of olivine | needed is the same order of magnitude as the 1 liter of oil | to produce the CO2. | | The world is consuming 97 Mio barrels of oil per day [2]. I | doubt we can mine that amount of olivine on a daily basis. Is | it even available in that quantity? | | How is olivine considered an adequate option to reduce the | CO2 in the atmosphere? | | === | | [1] that Wikipedia article above. | | [2] https://www.worldometers.info/oil/ | dEnigma wrote: | "The primary component of the Earth's upper mantle, it is a | common mineral in Earth's subsurface,[...]". This sentence, | also from that same Wikipedia article, seems to suggest | that availability wouldn't be the problem. But, whether the | whole process is practical/reasonable, is another question | entirely. | staplers wrote: | https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the- | viability-o... | | Something a little more simple and using abundant resources. | londons_explore wrote: | In the best case, one ton of oil/coal requires a few tons of | olivine to neutralise it right? | | So we need to go olivine mining at a greater rate than we | have done oil extraction... Will there be millions of olivine | rigs, olivine pipelines, olivine wars? | | Somehow I don't think it's gonna happen... | tempestn wrote: | Agreed. Following Project Vesta with interest: | https://www.projectvesta.org/ | _rpd wrote: | http://carbon.ycombinator.com/ | ArkanExplorer wrote: | There are 241 coal power plants in the USA. | | Get 50 people chained up in front of the gates, and stop workers | and coal coming in. | | Maintain this human blockade until the last coal power plant is | shut down. Ignore arrests and ignore the police. | | Screw the impact on the 'investment'. The grid will handle the | loss of electricity anyway. | | That's about 12,000 people across the USA who could actively | shape the future of humanity. | jhayward wrote: | > The grid will handle the loss of electricity anyway. | | No, it won't. And if you do it in the midst of a hot summer, or | a cold winter, people will die because you killed them. | | There are responsible ways to close those plants without | killing people. | bob1029 wrote: | I wish I knew more about meteorology. It must be incredible (and | maybe a little harrowing) to be in that profession these days. | | Does anyone have any idea how this heat wave will conclude? Does | all that energy just fade out into a nice polite rainstorm, or | should we expect something more dramatic to cap it off | considering the unprecedented circumstances? | squidfood wrote: | On the Pacific NW coast where this is happening, cool marine | air will push in and eventually overwhelm the system holding in | the heat. The change can be quite abrupt, as the two systems | wrestle for dominance, I've felt it (in Seattle) is as a sudden | breeze followed by what feels like turning the AC on - | literally a 5-10deg temp drop in minutes and can drop 30deg in | a couple hours. It doesn't generally end with full-on rain but | with cool coastal clouds rolling in. | throwawaysea wrote: | In this case it was a 40-50 degree (Fahrenheit) swing from | the record high to the overnight lows as the air compression | from sinking air off the mountains dispersed and marine air | came onshore: https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2021/06/even- | more-extreme-ext... | s5300 wrote: | Check out Frankie MacDonald, he's an autistic savant | meteorologist. Not saying that in any disrespectful way, I know | some people get a bit butthurt when using those words. | | I don't know if he's commented on it yet, but _if_ he has, | >99% chance he's correct. | JKCalhoun wrote: | > Not saying that in any disrespectful way, I know some | people get a bit butthurt... | | Incongruence detected. | s5300 wrote: | How is it incongruent to make it known I wish I could | celebrate somebody's unparalleled excellence with a simple | colloquial term? | | Like, HN is a place that circlejerks nonstop about | 10x/100xers, and you want to give me grief for this? | | He is an openly & proud autistic human, though with some of | the difficulties he has regarding some things many think of | as "normalcy" in our modern day life that are inherent to | the autism disorder, he operates with what at least appears | to be the skill of the 99th percentile of meteorologists. | By definition, he's a savant. | | To make the presumption that I'm being disrespectful by | using the term is asinine. He wouldn't have been the first | person to immediately pop into my head regarding the parent | comment if I didn't think so highly of him. | buildbot wrote: | It was very bad in Seattle, most building AC systems couldn't | even keep up with the load. Lots of wildlife certainly died, | there were so many heartbreaking posts about finding dead cats | and birds. | ttul wrote: | Same in Vancouver. The hotel I stayed at couldn't get the room | to go below 25C - about 80F. Extremely uncomfortable, albeit | better than 95F outdoors. | Izikiel43 wrote: | 25C vs the over 40C in monday is heaven | Avamander wrote: | Have you acclimated yourself to 20C/86C using AC that 25C/80F | is uncomfortable? | thesh4d0w wrote: | Nobody here has AC to acclimate themselves to that, 20C is | a more normal temperature for Vancouver. | 908B64B197 wrote: | To think that a few years ago some design firm were firmly | convinced they could build an office building there without AC. | | http://archive.kuow.org/post/modern-seattle-building-doesn-t... | beders wrote: | The huge waves of human migration caused by climate changes will | not only lead to suffering and death of millions, it will also | bring us to the new brink of a new world war. | | Whole regions becoming unlivable will affect us all. We can't | wait around until some invention saves us. We need to act now. We | can turn this around with WWS alone. | freeflight wrote: | It's already happening but barely anybody notices because it's | so politicized. | | Syria for example has been in over a decade of civil war, | refugees spilling over deep into Europe affecting local | politics, as the ME region was already saturated with displaced | people trough Afghanistan and Iraq. | | Yet most peoples take on Syria is a regurgitated: "The Syrian | people rose up against an evil dictator regime! Arab Summer!". | | When in reality the people in Syria went trough a 10 years | period of drought [0] prior to "shit hitting the fan". A | combination of the climate getting hotter while water is | getting more scarce in the region, as Turkey controls the | majority of freshwater inflow into Syria and large parts of | Iraq [1]. An inflow that's steadily getting smaller, as Turkey | is expanding its own agricultural infrastructure projects, with | plenty of dams, in Southeastern Anatolia. | | In 2008 Syria sought more drought support from the UN, and | particularly the US. The cable can be found on Wikileaks [2] | and the warnings by the Syrian UN representative and minister | of agriculture read pretty much prophetic in hindsight. | | [0] | https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/Fu... | | [1] https://climate-diplomacy.org/case-studies/turkey-syria- | and-... | | [2] https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08DAMASCUS847_a.html | cwkoss wrote: | What is WWS in this context? | h4waii wrote: | Wind, Water, Sunlight. | irrational wrote: | I personally would not buy property or a home south of the 45th | parallel. I know people moving from Oregon to Texas because | they disagree with how Oregon handled the pandemic. I think | they are nuts in more ways than one. | tomcooks wrote: | Everytime you take your car think about the discomfort you felt | by reading the headline. | _carbyau_ wrote: | On the one hand, it is easy to see the direct link. | | OTOH, you can't blame a person - or company - for playing | according to the rules of the game. | | It comes down to: "Why should I eschew a car and take 250% | longer to travel places on COVID infested public transport, | when my neighbour Bob jumps in his BMW SUV and drives." | | We need leadership from lawmakers or nothing meaningful will | happen. | xyzelement wrote: | If you are trying to persuade people to your point of view, I | don't think this method works. | | First, skimming the article for the causes of "heat dome" I am | not seeing connections to climate change. Maybe I didn't read | carefully enough so let me know but this could just be a | "thing". | | But more importantly, short of that connection it looks like | you are trying to appeal to guilt and fear and that's just not | something that attracts mentally healthy people. Nobody is | interested in that emotion so if it's warranted you have to | work much harder to make a case. | | Besides our cars have good AC. | grishka wrote: | In the US, at least, air conditioning is somewhat common from | what I know. It was as hot as +35 in northwest part of Russia | last week, for several days, with sun barely coming down at | night, and that felt like a torture at times. Some historical | records were broken. | TeMPOraL wrote: | Whoever is building and selling ACs these days, I think these | companies are a good investment right now. Summers in Europe | are on track to become unlivable without air conditioners in | individual homes; I give it few more years before everyone and | their dog will want to buy one. | cryptoz wrote: | > In the US, at least, air conditioning is somewhat common from | what I know. | | I think you are misinformed. Some areas have it for sure, but | in some very large population areas like the Pacific Northwest | (say, 20M people), it is very rare. I know that 0 of the houses | in my neighborhood have AC originally. [1] Any AC that someone | has now was purchased in the last few days, and many people | cannot afford to purchase a window unit or portable unit. | | [1] This is knowable because nighttime sound has skyrcoketed. | It used to much quieter at night here, but now, after 8pm or so | when the car noise is less, you can hear the blasting of | everyone's new window unit as it struggled to keep up. | freeflight wrote: | _> In the US, at least, air conditioning is somewhat common | from what I know._ | | Afaik that depends on the specific region in the US. Some | states have hot regions where AC is common, but plenty of | others don't because heat didn't used to be as common as it's | now, thus the sudden need for cooling to such a degree that | even public cooling shelters are a thing [0] | | Another factor, even for places with AC, is that their | infrastructure and AC is built to certain heat expectations, if | the weather goes outside these expected then the infrastructure | can't cope. A version of that was the Texas electricity grid | failing during the sudden high demand of a "real" winter. | | [0] https://www.axios.com/northwest-heat-dome-global- | warming-591... | dharmab wrote: | Even in hot regions, existing cooling systems may not be | designed for higher temperatures happening earlier in the | year. | cwkoss wrote: | https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/ | | Cliff Mass's blog has been providing good context about the | meteorology of the heat dome. | jimmytucson wrote: | I feel like extreme weather is right up there with super moons | and other astronomical events when it comes to generating | headlines, so I did a time constrained Google search for "heat | dome" and here's what turned up: | | 2020-07-10 - "How a 'Heat Dome' Forms--and Why This One Is So | Perilous (A massive, intense heat wave is settling over the | continental US. The ravages of the Covid pandemic are going to | make it all the more deadly.)" | | https://www.wired.com/story/how-a-heat-dome-forms/ | | 2019-07-29 - "What exactly are heat domes and why are they so | long-lasting and miserable? (Since late June, bouts of extreme | heat have scorched both the United States and Europe. To blame | are large, stagnant zones of high pressure known as heat domes.)" | | https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2019/07/29/what-exact... | | 2018-07-29 - "Scorching, long-duration heat wave to roast much of | U.S." | | https://www.axios.com/scorching-heat-wave-hits-us-millions-a... | | 2017-07-22 - "Meteorologists keep mentioning the 'heat dome' - | What is it?" | | https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/What-s-a-heat-dome-11240... | | 2016-07-22 - "'Heat Dome' Causing Excessive Temperatures In Much | Of U.S." | | https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/22/487031278... | | I don't mean to make light of important meteorological events, | especially as they relate to climate change, but can anybody with | better knowledge tell me if this is a significant incident, or | just another "super blood worm moon to appear larger than it has | since 1944"? | npunt wrote: | Yes, the absolute values being seen here are breaking past | records by up to 10*F. This isn't media just making something | of nothing. | kzrdude wrote: | There were pretty significant heat records set in western | Canada | AnimalMuppet wrote: | > The ravages of the Covid pandemic are going to make it all | the more deadly. | | Yeah... um... call me skeptical on that claim. So far as I can | tell, Covid didn't break anybody's air conditioners. It didn't | (so far as I know) leave people more susceptible to heat. That | article seems like attention-grabbing nonsense. (I'm not | blaming _you_ , just commenting on what your search turned up.) | azornathogron wrote: | I agree it's probably just attention grabbing nonsense, _but_ | I 'll note there are a bunch of communal shelters being used | by people who don't have facilities otherwise to get out of | the dangerous heat levels. Bringing a bunch of strangers | together into a communal heat shelter isn't ideal in a | pandemic. | mappu wrote: | If the same headline comes up every year then it's easy to | construe it as headline-generating pandering. | | But the facts are, that the earth is warming more and more | every year, and if you are under 40 then you have _never_ | experienced a year of below-average temperatures. The headlines | are repeated because we break new records every year. | | https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/10/if-you... | throwawaysea wrote: | The same headline is not coming up every year, at least with | regards to the weather event the article is about. Seattle's | previous record was from 11 years ago in 2009. Seattle also | hit triple digit temperatures two other times, in 1941 and | 1994. Source: | https://www.seattlepi.com/local/weather/article/10-years- | ago... | mustafa_pasi wrote: | In Miami a few days ago, an apartment block collapsed. Around | 150 perished. In the heat wave that hit British Colombia, 230 | people perished. | | When heat waves hit Europe in the summer, there are thousands | to tens of thousands of deaths. It's nothing to sneer at. | weeblewobble wrote: | I mean, it was 108 degrees in Seattle on Monday. The previous | record was 103. Not sure what more information you need to | determine significance-- it's literally never been hotter | irrational wrote: | Monday in Portland was crazy. We went to a friends house to eat. | Our car said it was 119 when we went in. When we came out 2 hours | later it was 82! | lwansbrough wrote: | Here in British Columbia we had 100+ excess deaths over the past | 4 days (COVID excess deaths here are probably zero over the same | period.) | fragbait65 wrote: | Honestly, why bother? | | The earth isn't dying, the earth will be fine, it will recover | over time, humanity on the other hand needs to be reduced. | | If it isn't climate change, an epidemic or something else, then | it will be war over resources some time in the future. | | On the other hand, climate change will probably lead to war | anyway, since resources like water and places to live will | decrease from that, so war is probably in the future anyway, | since world population continue to rise, especially since the | Chinese seem to allow 3 children moving forward. | runesoerensen wrote: | _> humanity on the other hand needs to be reduced_ | | The point of view expressed here somewhat ironically show a | severe lack of humanity. If anything it seems more humanity is | needed here. | | It's not uncommon to hear people talk about various types of | population control/reduction while being seemingly oblivious to | just how tragic and psychopathic the point of view is. | | If you find yourself agreeing with, say, Thanos, and also think | it'd be great to see half the world's population reduced by | half, I think that's a pretty strong signal that you need to | really think about what you're saying and if something can be | done to increase your ability to empathize with people in need. | | Another approach, that doesn't involve letting people die, | directly or indirectly, through our (lack of) action, would be | to address issues that cause long term high population growth, | in addition to for instance developing technologies and making | cultural/lifestyle changes to accommodate more people on our | planet to the extent that's needed. | fragbait65 wrote: | That's not my point. | | My point is that there's no need for population control. The | problem will eventually solve itself. | | I think humanity is doomed as long as there are egotistical | and greedy people and there's nothing you or I can do as | individuals. | | The problem is lack of resources, so I don't think the | problem is solvable with with technology. | | And just for reference, I actually am very successful in a | field where you do have to empathize with people to be | successful. That's actually what makes me bitter, I empathize | and all I see is greed and selfishness. It's human nature, | and that can't be solved with technology or science. | cwkoss wrote: | Population reduction advocates never seem to argue that | themselves committing suicide would be the moral choice, | which reveals they are valuing the preservation of their own | current lifestyle over the lives of the "others". | | In practice, it seems like the majority of people who call | for population reduction are white/western supremacists who | lack empathy for humans born with less privilege. | | Birth control should be freely available to every human on | the planet. Beyond that, I don't think there is any moral | policy available to reduce population. | fragbait65 wrote: | You are probably correct. | | I didn't really mean to suggest population control, even | though I wrote just that. The problem as I see it is that | everybody tries to approach the problem as if it will be | solvable by technology. | | The only way I see that we can solve a climate crisis or | the survival of humanity long term is to actually work | together. Which I'm pretty certain will never happen, since | there will always be greedy and selfish people. | kzrdude wrote: | I think you are half right. The earth isn't dying, it will be | fine. | | We should have a human focus, because it's a global common | ground. | | We should bother because this is all about what kind of life we | will have in the future. | | Some will die, some will always survive. That doesn't really | change. But if we can stop climate change in a good way it can | give us a better quality of life. Less conflict, less resource | scarcity. That's why it's worth bothering, to build prosperity, | invest in the future. | fragbait65 wrote: | I agree with everything you say. | | It's actually not a science/technology problem. The problem | is human nature, and that's not solvable with technology. If | it was, then everything would be rather simple... | nxc18 wrote: | The Chinese have not been successful in getting people to have | more children. Recent news is that they may be covering up for | the early stages of population decline. | https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-report-first-popul... | | Beyond that, the consensus is that population will naturally | plateau in the near future, no need for killing people you | don't like. | | https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/17/worlds-popu... | | This is high school level knowledge. Where does this meme that | human population is growing out of control come from? I keep | seeing it repeated here and it is puzzling. | fragbait65 wrote: | I agree with what you say. I didn't mean to say that the the | population growing is the actual problem. I mean to say that | lack of resources is the problem. (Too lazy to create a link) | https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet- | earth/state... | | We would still consume too much resources even with | population decline. | | Sure, lets say we fix climate change. I think the only viable | way to actually do that is for everybody agree to live as | people did a few hundred years ago. | | People seems to believe that we can solve climate change with | technology. I think that's a pipe dream. | | I also think that it's a pipe dream thinking that the world | will band together and "solve" the climate crisis together. I | think Covid-19 has showed us that humanity does not band | together in a crisis, each country and even each individual | will use the crisis to make moves to benefit them. | | And it doesn't matter what you do as a individual, most | resources are consumed by large corporations anyway. | wstrange wrote: | Since that article was posted, Lytton BC broke the previous days | record again: 49.6C (121 F) | | [0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc- | alberta-h... | JKCalhoun wrote: | Wow, that's Death Valley hot. | geocrasher wrote: | I haven't had the opportunity to look up the humidity in BC, | but certainly it is far greater than what you would see in | death valley. Death valley is a very dry area. The Pacific | Northwest is wet and the humidity just adds to the misery of | the heat. In my area we saw almost 110deg at about 35% | humidity. I have experienced 120deg in 5% humidity and I have | to say the 110 felt hotter! Definitely more miserable! | throwitaway1235 wrote: | It sounds like a reverse polar vortex? If any meteorologists are | around to confirm. | npunt wrote: | I wonder if this heat dome effect contributed to Venus' eventual | fate. My #1 fear is we're just going to get into some runaway | cascade of warming and turn into something like Venus much faster | than we realize. | lamontcg wrote: | The Earth has had 2,000+ ppm CO2 concentrations in the past and | hasn't turned into Venus. | | And more or less we're going to dig up all the dinosaurs and | plants that died and turned into oil/carbon and put them back | in the atmosphere and return to that if we do nothing. But we | have a record of what that looks like and its not Venus. | | That's also a very silly things to "fear" since to turn into | Venus you gotta do things like melt all of Antarctica, | Greenland and the Himalayas first which will take a couple | hundred years. There's an awful lot of thermal mass in all that | ice. | | Disruption to agriculture and food production though doesn't | require turning the Earth into Venus. | freeflight wrote: | It's kind of sad how we are fantasizing about terraforming | Mars, while we've been seemingly very effective at venusforming | Terra. | semitones wrote: | We're all gonna die. | [deleted] | kzrdude wrote: | Some will die, some will always survive this. That doesn't | really change - so that's barely what this is about. | | We need to make an effort to stop climate change. If we can | stop climate change in a good way it can give us a better | quality of life. Less conflict, less resource scarcity, | investing in a prosperous future. | undfg wrote: | Every news piece about "climate change". | https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/f5d6d60c-adba-478d-835c-8a3804e... | riffic wrote: | on a long enough timeline.. | kiliantics wrote: | it's already happening: | | https://mobile.twitter.com/JimBair62221006/status/1354175511. | .. | [deleted] | blondie9x wrote: | To some seeing records such as these fall is heartbreaking. It's | agonizing and vexing when you wonder what can you do to help slow | down climate change? The reality is we aren't doing nearly enough | to slow it down and the Earth is gradually destabilizing. We see | insane cold snaps such as those that impacted Texas this winter, | and at the opposite end of the spectrum heat waves unlike | anything humans have ever experienced before. The worst part is | these will continue to get worse year after year while greenhouse | gas emissions rise. Imagine the record high temperatures falling | this week and year. In 5 years or 10 years they might even | distant memories as we continue to see records broken and the | planet become less livable. | | The worst part of this is Earth is all there is for us. There is | no where else to go. We are this tightly interconnected ecosystem | where all beings are completely bound to one another. Our home is | surrounded by darkness for millions of miles. There is no option | B. There won't be, that's just the way it is. Mars won't be | option B. Don't kid yourself. If we don't right the course on | greenhouse gas emissions with urgent changes to limit emissions | now, then we will have lost the habitability of Earth. I can | envision us having to live inside year round without being able | to go outside. Does this feel so much like a remote possibility | now? It seems year over year temperate days become more elusive. | Fires. Droughts. Extreme weather events. Floods. | | The destruction and extinction of entire ecosystems hangs in the | balance. The crazy thing is we can stop this. But only with | urgent individual and society actions and sacrifices now to | address the climate crisis. | rad_gruchalski wrote: | Let's not forget about big rocks falling from the sky, | volcanoes and the Sun killing this planet inevitably in about | 1b years from now. There better be a planet B at some point. | derethanhausen wrote: | Even an Earth ravaged by big rocks and volcanoes would be | much more survivable than Mars in its current state. | rad_gruchalski wrote: | Definitely. Can't disagree with that. But at some point we | will be on a lookout, if we are still here... | [deleted] | i_love_music wrote: | I don't understand the negative comments towards you. Are | people living in denial? I appreciate your comment. | Taek wrote: | As an individual, there isn't really anything you can do. Going | vegetarian doesn't help. Recycling doesn't help. Using your | shower for 5 minutes doesn't help. | | As a society, we've chosen to manage resources via capitalism. | If you use less water, what that means is water is cheaper so | some corporation can afford another few acres of almond trees. | If consumers cut their waste in half, the slack would be picked | up at the corporate level. | | I genuinely believe the only answer is violently enforced | regulation. Set a standard like the Geneva convention that says | how much pollution and waste you are allowed to generate on a | per-area basis, and actually go to war against countries that | don't meet the goals. Throw executives in jail that increase | profits by migrating production to countries with less | regulation around emissions and waste. | | This is a tragedy of the commons problem, and you aren't going | to fix it by having even a large percentage of the population | agree to be respectful of the commons. You have to declare war | against those that aren't respecting the commons. I don't see | another path that will actually result in meaningful change. | pphysch wrote: | I agree with you but as it stands the dominant ideology of | the USA-led "international rule-based order" is Liberalism | (i.e. the individual is the authority). Until there is an | ideological revolution in the West, this is "just how it is". | | Every scientifically-correct, readily-implementable strategy | to address this crisis will be killed at some point for | infringing on sacred "individual liberties". Look at Biden | currently doing huge damage to the international solar | industry as a byproduct of Washington's floundering | ideological crusade against "authoritarianism" [1]. | | [1] - https://www.scmp.com/economy/china- | economy/article/3139062/u... | 6f8986c3 wrote: | Environmentalists fought against nuclear power for 70 | years. The result? We burned coal. | pphysch wrote: | SOME "environmentalists" fought against nuclear power for | 70+ years. | 6f8986c3 wrote: | No, most of them did. | pphysch wrote: | You should have specified that. Sure, big media ops like | Greenpeace are anti-nuclear. However, many actual | scientists like James Lovelock is staunchly pro-nuclear | [1]. | | [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/18 | /james-lo... | loopz wrote: | Maybe you're right, maybe war is the answer to less CO2: | https://www.co2levels.org/ | | However, it is interesting that people find "solutions", | before they've even described and analysed the entire problem | set. | nkingsy wrote: | You could just say enforced. The violence is implicit. | | I think an infinite metadata approach also gets you there. | | It appears that culture becomes homogenized in a direct | relationship with information transfer. | | So if we continue on the path of generating metadata for | EVERYTHING, we will arrive in a world where we can obtain | detailed supply chain information just by virtue of the fact | that a thing exists. | | Transparent supply chains and homogenized culture seems like | a good recipe for internalizing externalities without | regulation per say (rather propaganda). | staplers wrote: | You'll get downvoted, but we punish personal drug use | significantly more than catastrophic world-ending | environmental crimes. | danenania wrote: | Wars are not exactly beneficial to the planet. And it would | be a nice joke if your righteous war to save the planet from | climate change ends up leading us into a nuclear winter. | | Neither violence or authoritarianism are necessary to solve | the problem. We who live in democracies "just" have to elect | governments sufficiently not corrupt that they will impose | the required environmental restrictions on industry, and use | strong _economic_ pressure on other nations that don 't get | their houses in order. | Taek wrote: | > Wars are not exactly beneficial to the planet. And it | would be a nice joke if your righteous war to save the | planet from climate change ends up leading us into a | nuclear winter. | | Fully agree. War is worth avoiding at all costs. | | > We who live in democracies "just" have to elect | governments sufficiently not corrupt that they will impose | the required environmental restrictions on industry, and | use strong economic pressure on other nations that don't | get their houses in order. | | I may be overly cynical but I just don't see this | happening. But I would absolutely rejoice if it did work | out that way. | pope_meat wrote: | I can't believe we forgot to try that. | | Just vote, people. | | _Heavy sarcasm_ | pphysch wrote: | > We "just" have to elect a government sufficiently not | corrupt that it will impose the required environmental | restrictions on industry, and use strong economic pressure | on other nations that don't get their houses in order. | | This is essentially the operating definition of | "authoritarianism" in Washington, though. If you can't be | bought, you must be anti-freedom. | samzon44 wrote: | A dictatorship[1] of the proletariat could do that! | | > I genuinely believe the only answer is violently enforced | regulation. | | I would like to point out that 'violence' is not _strictly_ | necessary, except as a defensive measure. An internationally- | organized working class could simply refuse to work on | destructive projects (new oil pipelines, etc). Unfortunately, | people in power tend to react with increasing violence when | their power is threatened (see for example the police | response to DAPL protests), so you do have to be prepared to | respond to violence one way or another during the transition | of power. i.e. better organized = less violence. | Unfortunately we are very disorganized currently, and | organizing is (in my experience) hard. Better get on that. | | [1] This word makes the whole term sound undemocratic but | actually refers to the proletariat as a whole enforcing their | will (which must by definition be determined in a democratic | way) despite the will of the existing ruling class without | the need for negotiation. | slibhb wrote: | If the "working class" revolts, it's going to be against | climate change-focused regulations, not in favor of them. | andrei_says_ wrote: | Maybe it's time to signal political leaders that climate collapse | is an urgent issue. | heavyset_go wrote: | Why? They're often part of the same ownership class that stands | to make a lot of money from the status quo. Even if the world | goes to shit, they're wealthy enough to insulate themselves | from the fallout, and probably wouldn't mind being lords of the | ashes. | wnevets wrote: | Nah, it snowed that one time [1]. | | [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- | fix/wp/2015/02/26/ji... | cryptoz wrote: | Haha. They do something like this every time it snows. | | https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/fox-news-buries-al- | gore-s... | jeffbee wrote: | Perhaps in the same way the civil engineers signal to south | Florida condo boards that their buildings are about to | collapse? It's the same problem, really. Collective action by a | political body controlled by older people who are trying to | just hold on to their wealth until they die is impossible. We | need new political structures to write down the capital loss on | all the junk we built in the 20th century that has no purpose | in the 21st, and the political will to tell a handful of people | that yes _your_ underground mineral rights are being | expropriated. | 6f8986c3 wrote: | Environmentalists fought against nuclear power for 70 years. | The result? We burned coal. | | So I'm not interested. You wanted the world to burn. So let | it burn. | Avamander wrote: | How much of that has actually been environmentalists and | not a result of intentional deceptive tactics and | undermining of public education by fossil fuel companies? | 6f8986c3 wrote: | Most of it has been environmentalists. | bavent wrote: | Can you provide some evidence of that? | nradov wrote: | Most of the effective opposition has come not from | environmentalists per se, but rather from NIMBYs who | don't want to live near a nuclear plant. After the | incidents at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima | it's difficult to convince local residents that newer | designs are inherently very safe. Even if they support | nuclear power in principle they want it built somewhere | else. | dillondoyle wrote: | I think about 40% of the country has been 'signaling' pretty | hard. 30% are actively pushing for more emissions/denial. And | the rest are sick of the infighting. | | Take the bipartisan infrastructure 'agreement' (not final). | Republicans refused to do anything but support more cars... | throwitaway1235 wrote: | I would first want to see the study confirming this current | heat dome is a result of climate change. | angst_ridden wrote: | And what would you accept as proof? Meteorological models | showing the jet stream gets "wavier" with increased | temperature? | paxys wrote: | It's easy to blame political leaders, but they are (mostly) | elected by the general population. Here in the US ~50% of the | people vote for climate change deniers, so they are the ones | you need to convince. | misiti3780 wrote: | I hate to rain on your parade, but any solution that doesnt | lean heavily on nuclear is not a solution. | | 50% of the population may be climate deniers (need a | reference though), but there is a large group of progressives | that loved the green new deal also, which did not include | nuclear energy, so there is blame on both sides. | tshaddox wrote: | Any citation on the portion of American voters who vote for | federal politicians who deny climate change? I suspect it's | nowhere near 50%, even if 50% of elected officials deny | climate change. Representation is ludicrously | disproportionate in the United States federal government. | TremendousJudge wrote: | US voters didn't become climate change deniers by chance | NDizzle wrote: | How do US voters go about changing climate policy in China | and India? | freeflight wrote: | By voting for politicians who contribute and participate | in international regulation, like the Paris Agreement, | instead of just quitting them. | w-j-w wrote: | Trade war perhaps? Against non-nuclear powers (like | Brazil), conventional war is not off the table. | emgeee wrote: | I'd say voting in officials who are willing to pressure | these nations | fooey wrote: | Amazingly, the GOP just last week formed a Conservative Climate | Caucus with something around 60 members. They even explicitly | admit climate change is man made | | https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/06/25/utah... | dvaun wrote: | While the topic is certainly interesting, the way that this | article is written feels odd. It reads (to me) like GPT-generated | text. | IMTDb wrote: | Maybe that's because the author is not a native english speaker | ? | kiloreux wrote: | The affects of this on third world country are even worse. Here | in Algeria we are having the worst drought in over 20 years. What | I fear, is that if this continues to happen, people could | literally start dying from thirst again. I wonder how good is | desalination of sea water technology and if we could see some | startups that explore this field, certainly a lot of people's | lives to be changed. | AngryData wrote: | It isn't technology that holds back water desalination, it is | energy availability/cost. Even the most promising desalination | tech is only a small efficiency boost over simpler established | methods. Yeah efficiency gains certain help over the long term, | but the overall energy costs are still enormous and nearly | require dedicated power plant for any significant amount of | clean water. | | The best bet in actually desalinating population scale levels | of water would be investment into nuclear power. And the | desalination could double as a buffer for the nuclear plant so | that it could be run at peak power and efficiency nearly full | time. | azernik wrote: | There's also a capital investment problem - good equipment is | expensive to set up, even leaving aside the operating costs | problem. | | Achievable, yes, but only for the rich for now. eg Gulf Arab | states and Israel are early adopters, the latter with some EU | subsidies to defuse water rights as an point of conflict in | the Jordan watershed. | julienb_sea wrote: | This isn't technically accurate, we have access to abundant | long term (multi-century) reserves of natural gas which can | be used to provide power needed for desalinization. Nuclear | is in no way a "blocker". Certainly, cost is a substantial | barrier especially in less wealthy nations. | thewarrior wrote: | Carbon emissions | julienb_sea wrote: | If the choice is reducing emissions or saving lives from | dehydration, I wonder which is the appropriate course of | action. | thewarrior wrote: | Which could completely destroy modern civilization over | time. Once certain tipping points are crossed most of the | earth could become uninhabitable for large parts of the | year. | azernik wrote: | Problem is, carbon emissions make the dehydration worse | by heating up the planet. It's counterproductive. | pmontra wrote: | Probably something else. | | Gas burns and makes CO2 which increases temperature which | increases the likelihood of more dehydration events in | future. This is the wrong choice. Actually the long term | right choice is not to burn gas anymore. | | Letting people die is obviously the wrong choice too. | | When all choices are wrong we must find another choice | that can be right. Somebody wrote solar energy, somebody | wrote nuclear energy, somebody argued that both are | wrong. I don't suggest a solution but I point out that | limiting ourselves to binary choices is the wrong way to | think. | nradov wrote: | That's true from an engineering standpoint, but many of the | places which are short of fresh water also lack the capital | and industrial infrastructure to support large nuclear | plants. Solar power seems more realistic from an economic and | political standpoint, even if less efficient. | Someone wrote: | If it's extremely hot, using solar energy should IMO be the | first choice. | | I don't find https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_desalination | an easy read, but I think it says using PV to get electricity | and that electricity to drive reverse osmosis is one of the | best solutions. | | Certainly, given that solar power is cheaper than nuclear (in | the current political climate), nuclear can't be the better | choice for peak loads, which happen when there's a lot of | sunlight. | _ph_ wrote: | Wouldn't solar be much better for powering desalination than | nuclear power? It is way cheaper per energy produced than | nuclear, especially in those countries, which need | desalination most. Also, it doesn't take a decade to set up. | Not even mentioning proliferation issues. | bin_bash wrote: | Solar doesn't provide nearly as much energy and for | desalination you need a surprising amount. | | Nuclear is a great use-case since the problem with nuclear | is it needs a constant water source. If you're desalinating | you've got that problem covered. | state_less wrote: | Yes, solar is dirt cheap energy and you wouldn't need much | of a battery (or any?) in this case, since you can store | the excess product water in a tank. | | I power my water maker with about 1400 watts and can make | 35 gallons an hour. The panels, electronics and water maker | were ~ $5000. I did the work myself at a slow pace, so not | sure what the labor costs would be. | | I set my system up in about 2 weeks. The requirements are a | bit of time, seawater access and some capital. | | https://seawaterpro.com/ | Taek wrote: | I'm not celebrating people dying of thirst, but I also think | that's the only thing that will get the world properly focused | on the issue. We need to make big structural changes to the | global economy to fight climate change, and those changes are | going to have an outsized negative impact on today's wealthiest | and most powerful people. They aren't going to let change | happen without a fight. | | People dying is what it's going to take to muster up enough of | a fight to make the actual change. But the sooner we can hit | the panic button and get people focused on the magnitude of the | issue, the less people that need to die to get the population | properly motivated. | FridayoLeary wrote: | >People dying is what it's going to take to muster up enough | of a fight to make the actual change. | | No it wont. If anything it will just start a war and/or | a(nother) refugee crisis. Plus dead people. I think hoping | for disasters to catalyst change is a sadly naive worldview. | | >we can hit the panic button | | What panic button? Where? | neaanopri wrote: | People dying in Algeria won't realistically get the US, | French, or Chinese governments to significantly cut fossil | fuels supplied to their citizens. | Someone wrote: | France would react. If people start mass dying in Algeria, | many of them will try to get to Europe. | | Algeria being a former French colony, being close by, and | already having a large population of Algerian descent | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerians_in_France says | there are 10 million people of Algerian origin in France. | That's over 10% of the population), France probably will be | a major destination. | wait_a_minute wrote: | USA and France are actually doing well on renewables and | nuclear even. Whereas China is still building a shit-ton of | new coal plants. | | https://ieefa.org/france-boosts-renewable-energy-spending- | to... | | https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/climate/coronavirus- | coal-... | | https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut- | emissi... | 908B64B197 wrote: | I assume China is also taking in a proportional amount of | climate refugees as well. | beders wrote: | About China: | | https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/how-china-can- | achieve-... | rmah wrote: | China is also the world's leading producer of solar cells | (over 70%) and the world's leading _user_ of solar power | (about 33% of global solar power). | | China is also, by far, the leading producer and user of | electric cars with almost half of the production and | sales (more electric cars are sold in china than western | europe + US combined). Half of all EV's in the world are | driving around in China. | | Further, chinese people use a fraction of the electricity | that north americans do. Canada: 14,600 kWh/yr, USA: | 12,150 kWh/yr, China: 5,300 kWh/yr. | | In terms of CO2 emissions, it's the same story: USA: | 17.6T/yr, Canada: 15.7T/yr, China: 6.4T/yr, on a per | capita basis. | | It's hard to remember what with the shiny new tier 1 | coastal cities, but try not to forget that, on average, | china is still quite poor with only 1/4th to 1/5th the | per capita income of the richer advanced economy nations | like the US, Sweden, UK, Germany, Japan, etc. China is on | par with Mexico, Malaysia, Panama, Russia, or Bulgaria. | | In short, the story is not so simple. | marshray wrote: | IMO, per captia measures only matters for countries that | allow unrestricted internal movement. | | China strictly controls how many people are allowed to | migrate from the countryside to work in the cities, so it | is, in some respects, multiple distinct economies with a | centrally controlled standard of living. | petre wrote: | Guess what Algeria's first three main export products are? | Crude petroleum, petroleum gas and refined petroleum. | They're trying to diversify but it's too litlle, too late. | AngryData wrote: | Plastics and polymers certainly aren't going away anytime | soon so its not like a renewable energy world would just | kill them. I don't expect plastic production to actually | contract until long after we have made the grid | renewable/sustainable and have extra energy for active | carbon sequestering. Disposable plastic from grocery bags | and simple wrappers are easy to reduce and eliminate but | how many consumer devices are made of just metal or wood | now and aren't 95% plastic? Plastic is still replacing | tons of metal piping and ducts and on cars and everything | else. When is the last time anyone has seen a wooden | handled screwdriver for sale? | mbostleman wrote: | How do we know this is the result of climate change? It's | meant as an honest question. Though it is largely ignored in | the mainstream discussion, I've heard for years to be careful | about making a distinction between weather and climate. Are | you thinking this is not weather, but climate? How does one | tell the difference? If there's a record winter of cold | temps, would it be evidence that the climate is cooling? | retrac wrote: | I don't mean to be dismissive, but simple statistics. A | record winter by itself is just a freak incident. As is a | record hot summer. But what are the probabilities? One | record cold day broken after 80 years? Improbable but not | downright implausible. Year after year after year of record | highs? Just coincidence? | mbostleman wrote: | Makes sense. I don't have a good grasp on what the actual | data is over time. My primary awareness is the extreme | events that make the news. | jbotz wrote: | There are actually scientific methods for attributing | specific events to global warming or not, | probabilistically. I.e. although you can never say with | perfect certainty "this heatwave was caused by global | warming", you can say: with global warming this heatwave | has a probability 0.1 (once in ten years), but without | global warming it would have a probability of 0.001 (once | in a thousand years). | | We seem to be having several "once in a thousand years" | heatwaves per decade these days. | mbostleman wrote: | Gotcha. | lostcolony wrote: | I'm not even optimistic about that. Because it'll be the | -poor- people dying. | _jal wrote: | People dying will not change the minds that need changing. | | The people who profit from the current state of affairs need | to be convinced to modify their plans. Perhaps there are | other ways to persuade them, but fear of something worse than | not profiting from their current investment plans is the only | thing I can think of at this point. | nradov wrote: | What will force the issue isn't people dying, but rather | masses of climate refugees fleeing countries that are no | longer habitable and moving toward the poles. | skeeter2020 wrote: | For the same reasons we make fun of climate-change deniers | who say "look at this record cold winter; there's no global | warming" means we can't use a historic heat wave to say "look | globaal warming". | | weather != climate | shkkmo wrote: | A heat wave (like other weather) by itself isn't evidence | of global warming, but extreme weather events like this | (and like extreme winter storms) are made more frequent by | global warming. You should expect to see more "once in a | millenium" weather events as the planet continues to warm. | tclancy wrote: | So you're saying things getting constantly warmer isn't | evidence because people who don't want to see it do the | opposite? Math definitely checks out. | anamexis wrote: | > For the same reasons we make fun of climate-change | deniers who say "look at this record cold winter; there's | no global warming" means we can't use a historic heat wave | to say "look globaal warming". | | We make fun of the climate change deniers in this scenario | because the cold winter often _is_ evidence of climate | change. Record heat waves can _also_ be evidence of climate | change. | edoceo wrote: | What is the number? Hella people already dying and we (USA) | ain't doing shit. | | The haute bourgeoisie will not, have not done anything to | help. | | Mike Muir was right. Give it revolution!! | tshaddox wrote: | > but I also think that's the only thing that will get the | world properly focused on the issue. | | Or, that will just get the rest of the nations of the world | to focus on preventing climate refugees from entering _their_ | nation, and perhaps use their militaries to secure remaining | resources. | heavyset_go wrote: | > _I 'm not celebrating people dying of thirst, but I also | think that's the only thing that will get the world properly | focused on the issue_ | | Millions of people die from AIDS, malaria, and the lack of | potable water and food each year. But most of those deaths | happen other continents, so nothing is done about it. | | The transmission of HIV could be virtually ended in the US | with drugs like PrEP that have been on the market for a | decade, halting a 30+ year AIDS pandemic. That didn't happen, | and PrEP's price in the US rose from $1200 to $2400 for a | 30-day supply in 2019, despite costing ~$40 retail in other | first world countries. Now that one formulation recently | became generic, it costs $1400 retail, or $600 with coupons, | for a 30-day supply. As of 2020 there is a program for those | without insurance, but if you're a working adult with | insurance, you aren't eligible. | | As long as there is money to be made, people dying will be | acceptable to those in power. | martythemaniak wrote: | These folks are serious and they just raised 30 million to | provide vast quantities of cheap, desalinated water: | | https://www.terraformation.com/ | | Seems crazy now, but vast forests covering most of Algeria may | be entirely possible in your lifetime. | rmah wrote: | Vast quantities? LOL, their plant in hawaii does only 128 | tons a day. Americans use 3 tons a day. Each. Even relatively | thrifty nations use over a 1 ton a day per person. | | Hardly "vast quantities". And it's not cheap, they're | currently using "reclaimed" solar panels to provide power. At | scale, this not possible and not cheap. | | More to the point, their main goal is to plant and grow | trees, not provide fresh water. | shoto_io wrote: | I totally agree. Just note that heat (higher than average | temperatures) doesn't necessarily translates into drought (the | absence of precipitation). | 908B64B197 wrote: | Again? Didn't the Romans build aqueduct there 2000 years ago? | [deleted] | kmerroll wrote: | All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, | education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh | water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever | done for us? | londons_explore wrote: | Nearly all of earth has plenty of water for drinking... | | The thing we don't have enough for in many places is | agriculture, industry, watering lawns, bathing, etc. | | Although as usual the human problem of doing a suboptimal job | of allocating a scarce resource applies... | Arrath wrote: | Most desalination methods are unfortunately quite energy | intensive, and produce a concentrated brine that has | environmental/disposal concerns such that it can't just be | pumped back into the ocean, really. | | It presents a difficult problem for entrepreneurs to tackle. | Definitely the potential to change people's lives for the | better, though. | Izikiel43 wrote: | Is brine useful for something? | djxfade wrote: | For pickles? | raidicy wrote: | Stupid question. Can't we just let the brine evaporate and | then compress the minerals left over? | _rpd wrote: | This is a common method of salt production ... | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_salt | nradov wrote: | In theory sure, but that would consume huge areas of | valuable coastal real estate. And we don't really need more | salt. | nradov wrote: | Most desalination plants do just pump the brine back into the | ocean. That isn't ideal from a marine conservation standpoint | but if the outflow pipe runs out deep enough then it's not | too bad. | Arrath wrote: | If it's not ideal right now, how well does it scale if more | and more desalination plants come online to meet freshwater | demands, and dispose of their brine in the same manner? | tinco wrote: | It's not ideal if the brine is dumped in one location. If | it is dumped deep enough it gets a chance to be diluted | before it hurts the environment. | | In the end, all fresh water goes back to the ocean so | it's not like we would be creating an imbalance, there's | just a risk of causing local damage. | Arrath wrote: | Yeah the local imbalance is what worries me. I have a | mental image of a big long 'soaker hose' style brine | dumping pipe rather than a single outlet, that way the | brine is further diluted. Wonder how much that helps. | _rpd wrote: | The "brine" at the outlet pipe is just 2-3% saltier than | the ocean water at the intake pipe. The impact is not | zero, but it is very low if done right. | akiselev wrote: | The global water cycle is the embodiment of scale and | even though engineers would learn a lot of interesting | new things and make mistakes in the process of | implementing desalination at scale, the brine problem is | trivially solvable with existing technology like longer | pipes and flow control (changing the exhaust | concentration based on ocean currents and seasonal | factors). | | The problem is the criminal mispricing of water in most | of the world. Anything that interacts with saltwater - | especially brine - is in a completely different class of | infrastructure that requires constant maintenance, | something that most political systems are especially bad | at. It's compounded by the artificially low price of | water and accompanying lack of funds. | | Humans have built over _three million_ kilometers of | natural gas and oil pipelines globally. The longest | undersea pipeline is over 1,200 km long, which is at | least twenty times longer than the longest pipelines we | 'd need to build for ideal brine dispersion in the worst | case geographies. For better or worse, the problems with | desalination are economic and political, not | technological. We just need to spread out our impact so | that it's within the margin of error of ocean currents | and evaporation. | twobitshifter wrote: | Even temperatures alone are getting into the deadly range in | terms of wet bulb temperatures. | | https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/climate-and-people... | PicassoCTs wrote: | First we deny (which costs energy/money), then we wall the | problem off (which costs energy/money) - the moment it | overwhelms us, we have neither energy nor money left. | FridayoLeary wrote: | I just know that Israel are pioneers in this field. Water | scarcity has always been a problem in Israel. (the chief | solution to this has been, unfortunately, to starve the Salt | Sea of water.) | Izikiel43 wrote: | I'm from a 3rd world country and its the first time in Canada | it's as hot as back there, with the difference people here don't | have AC, so lots of people are dying from the heat. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-06-30 23:00 UTC)