[HN Gopher] The Cultural Implications of Silence Around the Worl... ___________________________________________________________________ The Cultural Implications of Silence Around the World (2020) Author : tchalla Score : 67 points Date : 2021-07-11 14:50 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.rw-3.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.rw-3.com) | sovietmudkipz wrote: | In my experience at a software company located in the Midwest, I | find most engineers engage in a hard listening culture. They have | things that may want to say but do not want to say their thoughts | for a myriad of reasons. | | My (soft) heuristic towards engagement in meetings is to call on | others and ask their thoughts. Sometimes I get a squeamish non- | answer but sometimes I get a answer worth it's weight in gold. | | There are some who engage in a hard speaking culture, too. My | heuristic operates to hear from everyone, when practical and | possible. | porknubbins wrote: | What is meant by hard listening? I've never heard that. If | engineers are reluctant to speak up its probably because years | of experience that management/regular people just wants | yes/no/we can do that type answers. Giving technical answers to | things is sometimes perceived as aggressive or intimidating | because the people who are supposed to be in charge often can't | follow all details. It takes a rare boss to truly trust the | engineers. | draw_down wrote: | I find that in tech or general corporate America, your opinion | is requested but only when it falls within certain bounds. Your | view is desired when it is appropriately positive and sunny; | when you see clouds on the horizon that's to be kept to | yourself. The extent to which this dynamic is present differs | of course. | | What you're construing as a squeamish non-answer may be more | politically shrewd than you care to admit, or it may be that | the person has previously spoken their mind and gotten their | hand slapped. Once bitten twice shy. | | Especially in the context of this piece which attempts to get | people to see each other a bit more fully, instead of jumping | to conclusions, I think it's worth bearing in mind that there | can be more than meets the eye. | [deleted] | psychomugs wrote: | Cue DFW's rant on silence and Pulp Fiction's uncomfortable | silence scene [1, 2]. | | The author mentions Japan but doesn't mention aizuchi, a constant | backchanneling that signals attentiveness that I'd classify as | the opposite of silent pontificating [3]. | | [1] https://youtu.be/iGLzWdT7vGc?t=1794 | | [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnVX-uv-QPc | | [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aizuchi | bellyfullofbac wrote: | Yet another misuse of the word "Bahasa" as if that's shorthand | for "Indonesian". | | "Bahasa" literally just means "language", the Indonesian language | doesn't have eponyms, so to say "He is Australian" you have to | include the noun "person", so "Dia orang Australia" (Sound | familiar? "orang utan" means "jungle person"). Same deal with | language/bahasa. | | People saying "I speak Bahasa" sounds to me like people saying "I | speak Sprache" to say they know German or "I speak langue" for | French. It's eye-rollingly obnoxious. | tombh wrote: | Eye-rollingly obnoxious? I've literally heard native | Indonesians refer to their language as just "bahasa", though | admittedly those same speakers told me off for doing it myself. | So whilst I agree "bahasa" has a commonly incorrect usage I | don't think it is due to the typical "White Ignorance". I mean | at least the author actually went to the effort of learning a | non-European language right? | | It's like "literally" in English has _changed_ its meaning. | Yeah of course it originally meant non-figuratively, but it is | clear to all that value language as a medium of communication | (rather than a measure of intellectual status) that it now has | another meaning as an intensifier. | DemocracyFTW wrote: | > I've literally heard native Indonesians refer to their | language as just "bahasa", though admittedly those same | speakers told me off for doing it myself | | The second part could be indicative of this being usage only | acceptable for 'insiders' to employ, and the first part could | mean but does not have to mean that outsiders / speakers of | other languages / in other countries could and should use | those very words. For example, in an American context one | often hears "this country" to mean the USA, but that cannot | be transported into contexts based outside the USA. | Similarly, there's urinara /uri nara/ lit. 'our country' > | "Korea" in Korean but you wouldn't say "I'm flying to | Urinara" or "I'm flying to Our Country" when you're about to | board a plane to Seoul. In Japanese and Taiwan, the Japanese | language and the Chinese language are often referred to as | Guo Yu lit. 'national language' > "Japanese" or "Chinese" | (depending on the language used). Of course you can't | normally say "Wo Bu Hui Jiang Guo Yu " in Chinese to mean "I | don't speak Japanese" except when the context is clear and | the listener can be expected that Guo Yu may mean Japanese | in Japanese. | | So Indonesians using "bahasa" in Indonesian doesn't | necessarily license using that word in English. | elefanten wrote: | This doesn't make sense. If the word/phrase expresses a | relative relationship to it's user, then that works on a | per user basis. Eg- Non-Americans can say "this country" | about their own countries. If the word/phrase is a generic | term in a given language, it often ends up having fixed | context --- eg "la Raza" as used by Latin American | communities. | | Besides, the original commenter denied it's used at all. Gp | implies otherwise. | | Broadly speaking, this whole business of trying to "own" | words on an identity basis is poisonous, corrosive and an | abuse of the tool of language. | tombh wrote: | That's a good point. Now that I think about it, the | Indonesians from whom I heard "bahasa" were actually also | native Javanese speakers. Bahasa Indonesia is of course a | lingua franca, and an increasingly imposing one for | minority languages, so maybe that could be a possible | source for your point that there are different connotations | for insiders and outsiders. | | I didn't get your point about "this country". The only | thing I know is how it's inappropriate outside the USA, or | in a global context, to use America to mean the USA, as of | course the rest of the Americas also exist. | ithkuil wrote: | And don't forget Bahasa Malaysia | ta1234567890 wrote: | Interesting. It's similar to the use of the word "chai" in the | US. It originally means tea, but in the US it is used to mean a | specific blend/preparation (usually masala), so they say "I'll | have a chai tea", which literally means "I'll have a tea tea". | 8note wrote: | I thought masala meant spice mix? | | Spiced tea is a bit more specific than tea tea, but not much | more | booleandilemma wrote: | See also: ATM machine, PIN number | NikolaNovak wrote: | "built on NT Technology" :) | grogenaut wrote: | carne asada grilled steak burrito for me | pksebben wrote: | To heavy for my taste, I'll have the ahi tuna. | socialdemocrat wrote: | Nordics and say Japanese may be listening cultures but in such a | profoundly different way that it is hard to put them in the same | group. | | Japanese and Koreans speak in a very indirect and polite fashion. | Us Nordics tend to be very blunt and direct. But we share this | with the Dutch and Germans. | | For me the main dividers are between direct and indirect | speakers. | | Like Americans like to keep things a bit fluffy and casual until | they know you better or have sort of warmed up in the | conversation. We are often opposite. We like going straight to | the point and do the fluffy stuff last as way of ending a | conversation. | mathewsanders wrote: | I have a background in research, and moving to the United States | I've had some situations where I've coached people in a team | who've never directly talked to their customers. Something I | always have to do with Americans is to practice getting them | comfortable with silence. | | A tip I stole from someone else (can't remember who otherwise I'd | credit) when asking a question in research interview is to stay | silent until you're feeling uncomfortable, and then count slowly | _another_ 3 seconds before asking a follow up prompt. | | The majority of the time, people do have useful things to say if | you are willing to give them the space to speak. | sudasana wrote: | > In the 6th century, Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu claimed that | "Silence is a source of great strength." | | 6th century BCE, attributed. | imchillyb wrote: | Sounds like a speech he made up for his children at the dinner | table. | beckingz wrote: | Wisdom that is motivated by necessity and frivolousness. This | is the way. | nayuki wrote: | > Given the different ways silence is used in China (a listening | culture) and Canada (a speaking culture) ... | | I observed the opposite. When I speak Chinese to Chinese people | in Toronto, Canada - friends/family/business - I find that they | speak faster, are more likely to interrupt or talk over me, and | tend to push their viewpoints instead of waiting to hear yours. | | I've interacted with Chinese vs. Canadian bankers, salespeople, | doctors, etc., and the contrast is noticeable for me. | | This isn't a statement about whether one way is better (e.g. I | find the Chinese are more straightforward with their intentions, | whereas Canadians leave more things implied); this is just an | observation about tendencies. | BadInformatics wrote: | Yeah, this is true in China as well IME. If anything, the | silence/noise ratio is closer to India than e.g. Japan. Perhaps | TFA is extrapolating from experiences in other East Asian | countries? | booleandilemma wrote: | Incidentally, one of the most high-strung, anxious people I've | ever met was a Buddhist. There was nothing Zen-like about this | person. | billyjobob wrote: | That makes sense if he was a convert to Buddhism, because | Buddhism in the West is marketed as a treatment for anxious | people. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-07-11 23:00 UTC)