[HN Gopher] Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and ... ___________________________________________________________________ Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" - can it be real? Author : horseradish Score : 121 points Date : 2021-07-11 18:22 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (mattstoller.substack.com) (TXT) w3m dump (mattstoller.substack.com) | deregulateMed wrote: | Big pharma is significantly less of a problem than the physician | and hospital cartels. | | I have no idea why these groups have survived scrutiny for their | literal multi-hundred million dollar lobbying/bribery of | politicians. | | My closest guess is that we all know "My" physician or a well | paid nurse that benefits from the bribery. | throwawayswede wrote: | They're part of the same mafia, Pharmaceutical Research & | Manufacturers of America spent $8664000 in 2021 only on | lobbying. | | https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/top-spenders | deregulateMed wrote: | So much evil in 1 list. | the-dude wrote: | That looks like a big number, but it is $8.6M ? Is that a | lot? | gregsadetsky wrote: | I double checked -- another source[0] mentions amounts that | are a bit higher: | | "The Chamber [of Commerce] spent nearly $82 million on | lobbying in 2020" | | But generally in line with the list posted by the GP: | | "Facebook and Amazon were the only companies in the top 10 | spending list and spent nearly $19.7 million and more than | $18.7 million on lobbying in 2020, respectively" | | I too, am surprised as how little this is for these | gigantic companies ($20M for FB? 1/1000th of their | quarterly revenue?) and more generally, how little money | this is... in comparison with the entire US government | budget? | | Sorry, this is probably all obvious? Just a bit.. sad? | | [0] https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/536082-us- | chamber-nu... | bpodgursky wrote: | Do you think this is a big number? $8mm across a huge | industry is barely enough to get a legal team out of bed. | This is really pocket change. | giantg2 wrote: | I don't see most physicians being an issue. Many of them are | fed up with the insurance, pharma, and regulations. Most are | forced to work for large providers instead of being independent | just due to the overhead of dealing with digital record | systems, legal, insurance billing, etc. | deregulateMed wrote: | When they spent $400,000,000 on favorable monopolistic | legislation it helps to aim the spotlight on anyone else. | giantg2 wrote: | What organization and legislation was that? | deregulateMed wrote: | American Medical Association, aka physicians | giantg2 wrote: | And what was the legislation? How was it monopolistic in | favor of physicians? | | The AMA does not really represent physicians. Less than | 1/4 of doctors belong to the AMA. Many of them do not | feel the AMA represents them. The AMA also accepts | substantial donations from other sources, including | corporate donors and foundations. | | https://www.physiciansweekly.com/is-the-ama-really-the- | voice... | wormslayer666 wrote: | Direct link to the executive order (it's in the article, but | might as well put here): | | https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action... | giantg2 wrote: | Sort of good, but we'll see how it plays out without other | policies supporting it. Frankly, many consolidations are not | malicious but necessary for survival. Economies of scale and | verticle integration are required to complete with foreign | companies with lower costs. Look at domestic steel production. No | way the market can support numerous domestic options that can | compete with the low cost of foreign imports. | | Then there's vertical integration. I don't know if this will | effect vertical integration. If it does, I wonder how domestic | companies will compete without it. | | As a beekeeper, it's vastly cheaper foreign imports (some of it | fake) that are more damaging than large domestic producers | (although there's a healthy variety). The low prices have been | forcing consolidation, or for some people to switch from | producing domestically to packing imported honey. It's tough to | market local honey for even $12/lb when walmart sells honey for | less than $5/lb. | tayo42 wrote: | What are some uses for honey by the pound? Off topic but | curious, I only ever put it in tea rarely or simmiliarly rarely | use it as a sugar alternative when cooking. | giantg2 wrote: | Price per pound is mostly just a standardized measure used to | compare prices regardless of container size. The most common | container size is a one pound jar, but 8oz jars are fairly | common too. You would buy a jar and use it in tea, other | drinks, on waffles, etc. You can buy larger quantities to do | things like baking, making candy, making mead, etc. | tayo42 wrote: | I see, yeah I only ever get a the little honey bear ones | lol, but the big jars at farmers markets look interesting | but they're always huge and I almost never use honey | giantg2 wrote: | As long as they're airtight they stay good for years. | Some local producers sell small jars too. I mostly sell | pint jars (1.4 lbs). I will probably switch to standard 1 | lb jars soon. | dehrmann wrote: | > they stay good for years | | The lifespan is indefinite. If crystals start to form, | you can heat the honey and it'll return to it's normal(?) | state. | giantg2 wrote: | As long as it's air tight, sort of. They found honey that | is safe to eat from the pyramids. I wouldn't recommend | eating it as it probably doesn't taste good at all. The | flavor will decrease after a while, but that generally | takes years. Eventually it will taste bad, but that | should take decades. | [deleted] | 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: | "The most interesting pushback was by Google, Facebook, and | Amazon, as well as Chinese giants DJI and Alibaba. All of these | firms speak though the trade association Netchoice, which has | them as key members. Netchoice didn't bother to try and convince | Democrats. Instead, the big tech trade association used the order | to lobby Republicans, making the case that Biden's actions | against monopoly are opening the door to a larger more powerful | government. Here's the key part of Netchoice's statement: | | "Sen. Lee and Rep. Jordan's warnings were right - when | Republicans back progressive antitrust proposals because of | concerns about tech, they open the door to progressive antitrust | activism... By backing hard-left proposals, like nominating Lina | Khan to the FTC and Rep. Cicilline's antitrust legislation, anti- | tech Republicans bear responsibility for the damage that will | result from importing a European-style antitrust framework to all | sections of the American economy." | | Netchoice represents mostly American giants, but also Chinese | dominant players. So it's interesting is to see the Chinese tech | giants through their lobbying proxy coming out against Biden's | anti-monopoly actions, and praising conservative Republicans Jim | Jordan and Mike Lee in the process. It's clear that both big | tech, and China's own tech giants, do not want to see anti- | monopolists like Lina Khan succeed. But conservative Trump- | supportive ranchers, by contrast, do." | | It is almost as if these "tech" companies are trying to sow | divisiveness. Divide and conquer. | walkedaway wrote: | > It is almost as if these "tech" companies are trying to sow | divisiveness | | It's worked in their business model for over a decade. Their | actions over the last five years have shown they have built up | operations as core competencies in helping divide our country. | Although one could argue they are just delivering what their | customers want (otherwise customers would leave said | platforms). | SV_BubbleTime wrote: | Perhaps we would look at the donations to see if this is likely | or not? | jedmeyers wrote: | Is buying a son's painting considered a donation or not? | jjeaff wrote: | No. In what world does buying setting from an adult relative | consist of a donation? | | And if a foreign government overpaying for hundreds of | thousands of dollars worth of hotel stays in properties owned | by the politician is not considered a donation, I can't | imagine anyone thinking the painting thing would be. | mathisonturing wrote: | Elaborate? Out of the loop | jeffbee wrote: | It's a game of "Spot the Fox News viewer". If you're a fan, | you believe the largest ethical quandary facing the nation | in the last quarter-century is that a person related to the | President of the United States is selling a painting in an | anonymous auction. | | https://www.foxnews.com/politics/obama-ethics-chief- | hunter-b... | zepto wrote: | > a person related to the President of the United States | | The sitting president's son, you mean? | SV_BubbleTime wrote: | While I detest bias in all media (Fox included but in no | way do they have a monopoly on)... | | Are you saying Hunter Biden (the son of, not just "a | person related to") hasn't recently sold his artwork for | $500,000 a pop to anonymous buyers? | jeffbee wrote: | As I understand it from reputable reporting, all such | sales are hypothetical. | | https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/deal-of-the-art- | whit... | specialist wrote: | I vividly remember when Billy Beer was a scandal. Simpler | times. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Beer | cabaalis wrote: | Here's an article from the NYT about how they are trying to | ethically sell Hunter Biden's artwork. "Ethically sell" was | a term I chose specifically because Hunter Biden is not an | artist, and the question of why his paintings are being | sold for half a million dollars and to whom is substance. | | https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/08/us/politics/hunter- | biden-... | | Edit: Anyone can be an artist of course. Selling artwork | for such a price would be quite an artist. | oh_sigh wrote: | That's anonymous - there's no way for the Biden's to ever | know the buyer. Of course, the buyer can just show them a | picture of the painting in their house or whatever but that | would be unethical. | alea_iacta_est wrote: | It's unethical for the public to know who's the buyer, | that's what they meant. | qeternity wrote: | > Of course, the buyer can just show them a picture of the | painting in their house or whatever but that would be | unethical. | | Unethical, yes...something which a good chunk of society | have no qualms with, especially those in the business of | bribing politicians. | ErikVandeWater wrote: | Don't know why your downvoted for asking a basic question. | | Career politicians do not betray those who fund their | campaigns, especially in the highest office. | ratsmack wrote: | I can understand them going after Ag and Pharma in a big way, but | I'm skeptical about the Tech part. There is just too much to lose | in political support from that industry for any politician to | attack them too aggressively. | AnimalMuppet wrote: | But, see, if I'm a politician, it's exactly "there is just too | much to lose in political support from that industry" that | worries me. I've seen how much weight they can throw against a | politician they don't like; I've seen them decide to go from | "not throwing that weight" to "throwing that weight" very | abruptly; and I realize that such a move can be made against | _me_ at the drop of a hat. That would worry me. Would it worry | me enough for me to risk _triggering_ their wrath right now? I | don 't know. | | As a non-politician, here's what I think needs to happen. They | either need broken up, or they need heavily regulated. (We | didn't break up the power companies. But we _did_ create the | Public Service Commissions to heavily regulate them.) I could | see a Public Network Committee or something, saying: "No, you | can't make that change your UI to make it even more addictive. | No, you can't gouge advertisers. No, you can't directly sell | personal information..." | boomboomsubban wrote: | Both health and agriculture have huge lobbying budgets, I'm | skeptical that tech offers much more political support than the | other two. | deregulateMed wrote: | What does Ag do? "Efficiency Is Everything" eats for $500/year. | Compare that to medical which is a minimum of a few thousand | dollars a year if you are perfectly healthy and $20000 if you | have a 1 day stay at a hospital. | colordrops wrote: | Big Ag is responsible for horrible factory farming practices | growing the wrong crops and producing food lacking nutrients | while destroying the environment and torturing animals. They | take huge subsidies and use them to support these | unsustainable practices. | arrosenberg wrote: | Not to mention the fragile state of supply chains for food, | the food deserts, absurd water usage. | heavyset_go wrote: | The fact that one of the largest famines in the Western | world as of late was caused by an economic system that | led to people relying on monoculture crops to feed | themselves[1], the fact that ours results in | monocultures, as well, should be worrying. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)# | Causes_... | s1artibartfast wrote: | What part of that is big ag, opposed to ag in general. I | don't see the difference on those topics personally. | worik wrote: | Economies of scale, when viewed from the perspective of a | cattle beast in a feed lot are a horrible thing in | agriculture. | | Modern industrial agriculture with its expensive inputs, | ruination of land, and abuse of live stock is a quite | horrifying thing and is impoverishing the people | responsible for the base of our food supply. | | It is the most efficient in terms of output per input, | but not by most other measures. | s1artibartfast wrote: | But you don't need to be a monopoly or even a big company | to have an awful feedlots, monocrop farming, ect. | colordrops wrote: | What you say is true in theory but not in aggregate. It's | no different from any other business in that respect. | Look at companies in a field you are familiar with and | you will find that the very large ones are a lot more | impersonal, ruthlessly efficient, and amoral. | s1artibartfast wrote: | That's the huristic I'm pushing back on: Big = bad, | efficient = bad, ect. Some problems are indeed | exaserbated at scale, others are not. I think this is | especially true for the ag industry and the issues | mentioned up thread. You can bust up the biggest factory | farms into 100 smaller companies, but they would still | have the same practices. Same with monocrop farming. | postpawl wrote: | Even in 2019, 2/3 of Americans supported breaking up big tech | companies: https://www.vox.com/policy-and- | politics/2019/9/18/20870938/b... | | The political support is definitely there. But if you're | talking about rich Silicon Valley donors, yeah they might have | a problem with it. | ardit33 wrote: | I think for tech, the forks/knifes are out from both parties, | for different reasons. As for the other industries, I am much | more skeptical anything significant will be done. | | This administration as pushed lots of 'agendas' just for | political show even though it new it had 0 chance for them to | pass and wasting everybody's time. | | Time will tell if this is just another political show, or they | will actually accomplish anything. | throwawayboise wrote: | Isn't that exactly the reason they should be attacked? | FractalHQ wrote: | I hope it's real. We need modern anti trust laws, big tech is | out of control. You're right though.. sadly. Most importantly, | we need to get money out of politics to free our government | from the grips of these corporate conglomerates. | dkdk8283 wrote: | We must free ourselves from censorship. | worik wrote: | Clearly you are suffering a lot from censorship... | seattle_spring wrote: | Moderation is not censorship. | thoughtstheseus wrote: | If there is no viable alternative then it's censorship. | Put the power of moderation in the hands of people, | create a market for it, that's a winning strategy. | seattle_spring wrote: | What are some of your opinions that can't be shared | freely on at least some platforms? "Conservative | opinions" don't count, because if they were actually | censored then I wouldn't have to have them rammed down my | throat every minute of every day from every angle. | Bancakes wrote: | Cut sugar industry subsidies and promote real food. Covid | pandemic is nothing to the obesity one. | gautamcgoel wrote: | He misspells Tyler Cowen as Tyler Cowan. | throwawayswede wrote: | No it can't. | | Top 10 spenders on lobbying in 2021: "Lobbying | Client","Total Spent" "US Chamber of | Commerce","$17590000" "Pharmaceutical Research & | Manufacturers of America","$8664000" "National Assn of | Realtors","$7985521" "American Medical Assn","$6520000" | "American Hospital Assn","$5852623" "Blue Cross/Blue | Shield","$5774300" "Raytheon Technologies","$5360000" | "Amazon.com","$5060000" "Facebook Inc","$4790000" | "Northrop Grumman","$4610000" | | Look up more stuff: https://www.opensecrets.org/federal- | lobbying/top-spenders | | Plus, Biden is the last person to be trusted with this. The | overall lockdowns in the US are basically a joke. Your government | let big pharma abuse the entire society for more than a year and | people are still so discombobulated by what happened that they've | started to develop a stockholm syndrome. | pjc50 wrote: | > Your government let big pharma abuse the entire society for | more than a year | | Explain. | throwawayswede wrote: | Lockdowns are useless. | pjc50 wrote: | Evidence? Also, motivation? | throwawayswede wrote: | One of the principles of public health is that you can't | just look at one disease isolated, you have to look at | public health as a whole. With lockdowns there's been a | lot of collateral public health damages: Cancer | treatments and scanning that were not provided, worse | cardiovascular disease outcomes, diabetes not being | properly taken care of, tragic mental health situation, | education of kids going to school, and other unintended | side effects. One of the things known from the beginning | is that, even though anyone can get infected with covid, | there's a 1000 fold difference in the risk of mortality. | [deleted] | bilbo0s wrote: | Finally, they've started attacking big tech on the privacy front. | The whole "monopoly" and "anti-trust" thing was going nowhere. | But privacy orders like this are a step in the right direction. | | And to put the nail in big tech's coffin, congress should pass a | law forbidding the sharing of any personal information on any | resident of the US for any commercial reason whatsoever. With | draconian penalties assessed per user infraction. That would stop | these tech companies in their tracks. | dodobirdlord wrote: | While ultimately a ban on sharing personal information for | commercial reasons would be good in the long term, in the short | term (many years, certainly, maybe forever) it would serve to | entrench existing big tech companies. Google, for example, | doesn't directly share personal information with advertisers. | Where side-channels exist that would enable advertisers to | extract data from Google, Google has the scale and the | resources to create technical solutions like having advertisers | send their entire software stack to run in Google datacenters | so that Google can ensure nothing is being logged, and force | advertisers to comply. Facebook, Amazon, and Apple likely have | the resources and scale to pull of the same feats. Anybody else | would be put out of business. Hardly a mandate that would make | sense in the context of encouraging competition. | bogwog wrote: | > With draconian penalties assessed per user infraction. | | You mean like chopping off a limb/finger for every violation? | | Unfortunately, that won't work for a certain lizardman CEO who | is purported to be able to regrow limbs. | bilbo0s wrote: | I was thinking more along the lines of heavy fines. | | I'm not a big supporter of violence against pharma, tech, and | Ag CEOs. I'm not a big supporter of violence against anyone | where massive fines will serve the same purpose. In fact, the | fines would work better. | ratsmack wrote: | And how do you feel about sharing the collected data of your | conversations and travel with government agencies? | bilbo0s wrote: | I feel there is nothing the government is going to do about | that. This doesn't mean that I throw up my hands and say, OK, | I'll let everyone have all of my communications logs since | the government has them. | ratsmack wrote: | I personally believe being targeted with advertising is | much less intrusive than the government having unfettered | access to my daily interactions with people and various | institutions. I would prefer to not have to worry about | either. | wincy wrote: | After all, now that the NSA has all their spy networks set up | they don't need the tech companies to do the spying anymore. | Time to crack down. | | Makes me think of an abusive relationship where the abuser is | very jealous and protective of the abused. | | "If anyone spies on my citizens, it's gonna be me!" | bilbo0s wrote: | I actually agree with this, it is an abusive relationship. | Only the abuser has a gun to your head so there's nothing you | can do about it. | qeternity wrote: | > And to put the nail in big tech's coffin, congress should | pass a law forbidding the sharing of any personal information | on any resident of the US for any commercial reason whatsoever. | | At this point, a huge number (majority?) of Facebook et al | users know what Facebook are doing. They value their own data | less than Facebook do and are happy to trade it in return for | free social media service. You may not like it, but free people | should be able to engage in a transaction if it's not | infringing on other peoples' rights. | | I'm not sure why you would know what's better for them than | they would. | laurent92 wrote: | Some people buy an iPhone just because Apple imposes | draconian rules on Facebook. People do put a price on | privacy, thousands of dollars probably. | | When you reduce the value of interconnecting people to a | linear scale, it's unfair. How much value do you put on a | friendship? How much value do you extract from belonging to a | Facebook group? It's probably a million dollars per person. | It doesn't mean the privacy part isn't extracted by coercion, | taking friendships as hostage, threatening to remove you from | participation to a lot of the social life if you revoke your | Facebook account. | qeternity wrote: | > thousands of dollars probably. | | > How much value do you extract from belonging to a | Facebook group? It's probably a million dollars per person. | | No idea what you're on about. The average person doesn't | buy Apple products, they have a small percentage of market | share. You're just throwing absurd numbers around. | | You've argued my point: people value socialization | (millions, according to you) more than they value privacy | (mere thousands, again according to you). | | Nobody forces anybody to use Facebook. Yet billions use it. | It boggles my mind when people feel they should dictate | other people's personal choices. | jeffreygoesto wrote: | It is infringing other's peoples rights. Shadow profiles are | and even if you paid for subscriptions everywhere in the net, | you could not get away untracked and being targeted for ads | you neither want nor need. | qeternity wrote: | I'm not saying I agree with it, but what rights are being | violated by shadow profiles? | Mountain_Skies wrote: | Facebook shares lots of data about people who have never | signed up for a Facebook account. Everyone is a Facebook | "user" whether they want to be or not. | qeternity wrote: | Well, I guess this makes sense because you can be a | Facebook user without an account... | Supermancho wrote: | > Facebook shares lots of data about people who have never | signed up for a Facebook account. Everyone is a Facebook | "user" whether they want to be or not. | | Same with Twitch/AMZ, YouTube/GOOG, Target, Wall Street | Journal, etc. It's basically the state of digital | advertising today, which is not remotely limited to or | monopolized by FB. I've worked on the adservers, across | multiple companies, for over 15 years now. | LatteLazy wrote: | A lot more people support action than support any given outcome. | I worry that the majority will be disappointed by the outcome | because of this. | | Take the big tech action: some people support it because they | want less censorship (that's me), others because they want more. | The same applies in other aspects of peoples' issues with big | tech (fake news, hate groups, grooming and CP, privacy, foreign | election meddling etc). We can't all be happy with whatever the | FTC does to social media sites can we, given we mostly want | different things. | alessandroetc wrote: | It's not actually real. The lobbying firm behind most of the fact | sheet is made up of people on the boards of different tech firms. | ampdepolymerase wrote: | How about Big Telecom and Big Fintech and Banking? Or is it | simply because the rest did not pay enough to the lobbyists? | bilbo0s wrote: | The ISPs have been getting hit in this series of orders. | | That said, yes, fintech and banking are conspicuously absent. | Which kind of lets you know that they are just too powerful. | fastssd wrote: | And people say crypto is bad. Sad world we live in. | TheRealPomax wrote: | Or that you really, really need to establish precedent (and | ideally, a pttern) by first successfully going after the | "easier" targets. It's much easier to go after fintech and | banking if you can go "what's the problem, you're just next | in line, your industry's hardly getting singled out" | dodobirdlord wrote: | Banking is getting impacted in this series of executive | orders, there's a mandate that banks make customer financial | history portable so that customers aren't locked into | continuing to use their current bank to keep their financial | records. Aside from that issue that stops customers from | being likely to _switch_ banks, there's a ton of competition | in banking. There are many consumer banks, they all provide | essentially the same services, and they compete on things | like branch density, customer service, and saving /loan | rates. Aside from that, consumer banking is already one of | the most regulated industries. | | Fintech consumer products and services are rare with the | exception of tax preparation. E-trading is becoming more | popular, but existing consumer banks and brokerages are | stepping up to compete across the board. Intuit's TurboTax | product is really the only example I can think of in the | fintech industry that needs antitrust attention. | jeffbee wrote: | There's much more in the actual order addressed toward banks | and telcos and ISPs than there is language directed at "big | tech". | | https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action... | summerlight wrote: | This executive order is really comprehensive, it touches | literally every economical areas where competitions are | withering away. To be specific, I think this part addresses | your concern on big telecoms. > (l) To promote | competition, lower prices, and a vibrant and innovative | telecommunications ecosystem, the Chair of the Federal | Communications Commission is encouraged to work with the rest | of the Commission, as appropriate and consistent with | applicable law, to consider: | | The following also partially addresses big banks, though I'm | not sure it's sufficient enough to tame them. Better than | nothing though. > (e) To ensure Americans have | choices among financial institutions and to guard against | excessive market power, the Attorney General, in consultation | with the Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal | Reserve System, the Chairperson of the Board of Directors of | the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, and the Comptroller | of the Currency, is encouraged to review current practices and | adopt a plan, not later than 180 days after the date of this | order, for the revitalization of merger oversight under the | Bank Merger Act and the Bank Holding Company Act of 1956 | (Public Law 84-511, 70 Stat. 133, 12 U.S.C. 1841 et seq.) that | is in accordance with the factors enumerated in 12 U.S.C. | 1828(c) and 1842(c). > (t) The Director of the Consumer | Financial Protection Bureau, consistent with the pro- | competition objectives stated in section 1021 of the Dodd-Frank | Act, is encouraged to consider: | Animats wrote: | We need to bring back the Glass-Stegall Act, which kept banks | and brokerages separate. It's not really about competition, | though; it's about isolating broker failures from bank | failures. That was in Trump's plaform, by the way. | Jenk wrote: | Some is better than none. | annadane wrote: | No, this is Hacker News, where we have to gripe about every | single little thing until it loses all fucking meaning | | Edit: you downvote me because you know this is exactly how it | goes around here | Notanothertoo wrote: | Yes and that's a good thing. Politics is mostly a game of | pretend and therefore bullshit, as uhh.. engineers we like | to be more practical. We simply see the bullshit they are | selling regardless of political affiliation. If they wanted | to actually solve problems the approach and results would | be totally different. | specialist wrote: | Around 2005, I asked Kevin Phillips: | | Me: According to your book, America's political parties have | flipped every ~70 years. It should have happened around the time | of Ross Perot, so I guess we're overdue. Do you think another | realignment is emminent? | | Phillips: No. It won't happen while Wall St. and finance remains | in control of our political discourse. | | -- | | It'll be amazing if Biden Admin is able to uncork the next cycle. | But I'm not holding my breath. | | Wealth and Democracy: A Political History of the American Rich | [2003] https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Political-History- | Am... | | Here's a more recent account: | | Lobbying America: The Politics of Business from Nixon to NAFTA | [2015] https://www.amazon.com/Lobbying-America-Politics-Business- | So... | | Edit: I changed "Last decade" to "Around 2005". Time flies. My | bad. | the-dude wrote: | > hospital price transparency, | | Wasn't this already put in place by the previous administration? | ryanSrich wrote: | Of course it was, also see "value based care". It's all | bullshit. | | Hospitals have zero incentive to be transparent, and all the | incentives to be opaque. So long as you're a non- | Medicare/Medicaid patient you'll continue to suffer. | | The American healthcare system is completely fucked (there's no | better word). | giantg2 wrote: | Only for billing cost of procedures. It's still a mess. | | Did you know that hospitals make money by using name brand | medications? They will get a contract with a brand, like | Motrin, and charge you full price at $8 a pill. Then Motrin | will will evaluate how much the hospital used and give them a | big rebate to bring the hospital's cost down under $1 per pill. | You can literally buy a bottle of ibuprofen for what they | charge for a single pill, but of course in the name of safety | (and really kickbacks too) they won't allow the cheaper outside | medication. It's effectively an internal monopoly. | revscat wrote: | I'm not sure what your point is. These contracts between | seller and merchant were voluntary. There are other hospitals | available should you choose, and if not then you have no one | to blame but yourself. | LimaBearz wrote: | I love how conservatives still make this argument. You're | arguing for the free market in a system that literally | isn't, and doing it in such a way that it tries to be a | thought-terminating cliche. | | If you get into a car accident tomorrow driving to work, | the ambulance/paramedics aren't going to ask you to do your | research prior to shuttling you to a hospital to get life | saving treatment. Even if you could how would you be able | to tell which hospital has what price structure, what | services you'll actually need given your medical condition, | and what arrangements they have with various drug | manufacturers and how that relates to what you require to | help your condition. Save it.. "no one to blame but | yourself" is so incredibly idiotic is comical. | | Take something even more benign, like someone falling and | breaking/straining something. Wanna still do your research | first? Is it a sprain, fracture, break? How do you know? Is | it clear cut? What pain medication will you need? Will you | require surgery? What lab work will you need? How many | tests will you need? X-rays? CAT scan? MRI? What kind of | surgeon? How many nurses? Will you require blood? Whats the | recovery like? What about follow up visits? Do you expect | us all to practice free market principles and know all that | crap in advance for price discovery before deciding to seek | treatment? | | True free market principles require an asymmetry of | information for the system to work, and even "fathers" of | the theory understood that and acknowledge the need for | regulation when its absent. | alisonkisk wrote: | Are you trolling? | | A hospital has even more lock in than the App Store. They | can literally legally lock you in. | giantg2 wrote: | Not everywhere has multiple hospitals to choose from. Even | if there are multiple hospitals, your insurance might | influence your choices too. And at the end of the day, if | you're incapacitated, they will just take you to wherever | is closest. | | The point was that the hospitals are doing things behind | the scenes that are not well known that affect the pricing. | In this example, they charge you more for using name brand | medication and then get a kickback to make money for | themselves. | ModernMech wrote: | > These contracts between seller and merchant were | voluntary. | | I'm guessing you've never been placed on an involuntary | psych hold, or woken up at a hospital after an accident | left you incapacitated. | dralley wrote: | The hospital you end up in is not a free market and usually | it's not even a choice. Anyone who who gets in a car | accident, falls off a roof, has a heart attack will be | lucky to still be conscious when the ambulance picks them | up, much less in a state of mind to be considering the | relative merits. | ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: | It was, but apparently we're not there yet in terms of | compliance: https://www.axios.com/hospitals-price-transparency- | costs-reg... | throwawayboise wrote: | "Hearing aids cost thousands of dollars apiece, for no other | reason than there is a cartel established by government that | prevents firms from selling hearing aids without a prescription." | | An example of how many (most?) monopolies are able to exist | because of some sort of legal authorization or protection. | Regulatory capture. | | There are dozens of companies who would no doubt start making | inexpensive hearing aids tomorrow. Absent government regulation, | they already would be. | ISL wrote: | Queue "overpowered OTC aids destroyed my hearing" pushback... | oliv__ wrote: | Queue private agency testing, evaluating and rating products | on the market | antifa wrote: | https://github.com/auchenberg/volkswagen | rtkwe wrote: | Cue rating agencies passing anything because hearing aid | companies can go to another rating company if they don't, | like what happened with mortgage securities in the 00s... | watwut wrote: | Yeah, it is totally impossible to have competition on | regulated market. Monopoly is only possible solution. | | Or something. | heavyset_go wrote: | Credit rating agencies and the subprime crisis: https://en. | wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agencies_and_the... | giantg2 wrote: | Is that really going to be a thing? Earbuds have been out for | a long time and are easily capable of destroying hearing. | PoignardAzur wrote: | As someone with a relative who install these: yeah, it can | be a thing. | | The gap between "too soft, doesn't help you hear" and "too | loud, damages your hearing" can be narrow. | | Usually it's more of a problem in the other direction, with | doctors playing it safe and tamping down the aid to the | point of uselessness. | im_down_w_otp wrote: | Total aside, in this context I think it's "cue". Like a cue | card. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Bose's hearing aids were recently approved by the FDA, and | they're only $850. The APM Marketplace program recently | covered this development and the hearing aid monopoly. The | sky isn't going to fall. | | https://www.npr.org/podcasts/381444600/marketplace | | https://www.bose.com/en_us/products/headphones/earbuds/sound. | .. | mgerdts wrote: | $850 each and as of a month or so ago only available in 3 | states. | | At Costco you can get what seem to be high end hearing aids | for $699 each. The current generation are rechargeable and | support bluetooth. This includes the free hearing test free | fitting ("real ear", which is current best practice) and | followup so long as you have a membership. | | The key thing that is lacking is a decent app or api for me | to write my own. Oh, that and phone conversations using the | hearing aid's bluetooth is pretty bad. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Half seriously, Medicare should consider including a | Costco membership with their coverage for the elderly. | the_third_wave wrote: | > Bose's hearing aids were recently approved by the FDA, | and they're only $850. | | _Only_ $850? That is a new use of the word _only_ as far | as I 'm concerned. These things, which are in many ways | similar to if not identical with bluetooth earbuds should | not cost more than those - and given the fact that Apple | managed to convince people that $200 is a normal price for | these things that should leave more than enough margin for | an unhealthy profit margin seeing as how the ones I'm using | cost [?] of that while achieving a longer battery life. | fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: | Is there an earbud costs $30 with active noise | cancelation and transparency mode? I want this. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Traditionally, the cost for hearing aids runs in the | thousands of dollars. Perfect is the enemy of good | enough, progress takes time. | the_third_wave wrote: | The only progress needed here is for the protection | racket to be broken down, this can be done with the | stroke of a pen. Allowing it to "take time" only gives | those who seek to extract as much money as possible from | the artificially limited market more time to do so. | toomuchtodo wrote: | I encourage you (and others) to actively engage with your | Congressional representatives and regulators in this | regard. | odiroot wrote: | *Cue | mschuster91 wrote: | > There are dozens of companies who would no doubt start making | inexpensive hearing aids tomorrow. Absent government | regulation, they already would be. | | And with the lack of certification requirement, someone _will_ | start cutting corners to make an extra chunk of profit. Just | imagine a faulty hearing aid that fails while a person is | driving, and the person causing an accident as a result. Good | luck suing anyone over that one. Or people mis-tuning hearing | aids leading to more damage than before. | | Another thing I can easily imagine is unscrupulous | manufacturers using banned chemicals to manufacture the hearing | aids. We have enough of this sort of shenanigans with nickel | allergies in jewelry. | alisonkisk wrote: | Hearing is not required to safely operate a vehicle. | | And why wouldn't someone be able to sue successfully? | tomc1985 wrote: | What? Driving with headphones is forbidden where I am. And | at minimum you need to be able to hear a carhorn. | throwawayboise wrote: | Are deaf people forbidden to drive where you are? | jdavis703 wrote: | And emergency sirens/bullhorns, motorcycles, train horns | at unguarded railroad crossing gates, etc. | comex wrote: | Even assuming that's true, if your hearing suddenly cuts | out, and you decide to pull over in response, the chance | you'll encounter one of those objects in the few seconds | it takes to pull over is rather low. | | For this to be a real danger, either the driver would | have to not notice that they suddenly couldn't hear | anything, or the faulty hearing aid would have to pass | through some sounds but not others. Both of those | scenarios seem pretty unlikely. | | Meanwhile, from some quick googling, it seems to be | common for completely deaf people to drive; apparently | there are devices that can translate sirens and such into | visual cues, but such devices are not universally used. | To be fair, it's a bit different if you're not expecting | it or practiced at it. | [deleted] | giantg2 wrote: | "monopolies are able to exist because of some sort of legal | authorization or protection" | | The entire point of patents... | throwaway5752 wrote: | It was not great before patents when a big company could | steal your work and put you out of business after you put in | the R&D effort. | alisonkisk wrote: | what big business was doing that before 1789? | ModernMech wrote: | Now they just file the patent before inventing it, let you | do the R&D for them to make it a reality, and sue your for | patent infringement when you go to market. | Notanothertoo wrote: | As someone who started a business only to get a bullshit | suit that I was unable to afford by one of the largest re | insurance providers in the world (#1/2), the idea that the | ip/patent legal framework as it is today helps the little | guy is a slap in the face. | | They preemptively sued me in a state I've never worked in | or entered for that matter because the favorable corporate | law there, and that is why they have their hq there. They | would file a bullshit motion, get everyone in front of the | judge. Somebody would point it out, they would retract it, | and immediately file a new one and request everyone have | time to review it. All the while bleeding me dry at 500$ an | hour for litigation on top of travel expenses plus the | regular legal fees of multiple lawyers across two states. | | The whole thing was bullshit, lots of red flags but I | lacked the capital to assert my agency legally.. | | The ip/patent framework as it is today helps nobody but big | co and promotes regulatory capture. It prevents the kind of | reverse engineering you see in China and why we don't have | things like removable battery cell phone mods and other | "hacks" here. It's why the right to repair is an issue at | all, if they didn't have this legal framework they wouldn't | be able to enforce any of it legally. Somebody would come | along and offer a service to do it at a fraction of the | cost. Why do I have to keep buying the same media over and | over again on different formats. It's amazing to me seeing | the most authoritarian regime in modern history leverage | the free market better than the "capitalists". Sorry for | the rant but this shit is imo the reason for most of the | corporate bullshit today. It's what empowers the lawyers. | giantg2 wrote: | The court system is a joke. It has nothing to do with | justice. On the criminal side, you can get a citation for | a $500 fine and it's better to just plead guilty because | a lawyer will cost you at least that much. It's a | financial punishment even if you are innocent. If you | don't hire a lawyer the judge won't take you seriously | and call you names like "sovereign citizen". The number | of mistakes and the amount of ignorance by the people | running the system is repulsive and leads to violations | of rights. | | As _just one_ laughable example, I had a magistrate think | that requesting the case to be dismissed with prejudice | was me calling him prejudice. You dont even need to have | a law degree or pass the bar to be a magistrate. | giantg2 wrote: | Yeah, that used to be the point of patents. Now it seems | it's mostly to squeeze as much out of people by capturing | the majority of the market by not allowing similar | products. | | I mean, we have CEOs of biomedical companies admitting that | they aren't basing prices off of what it costs to research, | develop, and deliver a therapy, but rather base it off of | what a deaparare person is willing to pay for it. This is | the very thing antitrust laws were supposed to prevent, but | the patent system is used to create a similar environment. | throwaway5752 wrote: | Agreed? Patents are being misused. We should fix that. | Patents fixed gross injustices when they were created, | and we shouldn't forget that, either. Software is | probably the worst example of a field for patents and I | think the case for patenting algorithms or design is | dicey. But if you sink 100M into drug R&D, a novel type | of medical device, or a new type of semiconductor CVD | process you should have some protection against reverse | engineering from competition for a period of time. | | Since the problem seems to come a lot, maybe the problem | is the role of money in politics and we should address | the root cause. Just a thought. | Notanothertoo wrote: | No you shouldn't.. The idea that your idea is so novel it | should be legally enforced as "yours" is pretty | egotistical imo. How do you credit the millions of ideas | you are basing yours off of. It's also information, it's | not "stolen" in the sense that multiple people can't use | it at the same time. | | Benefit of rnd is being first to market. You will capture | much of the market while everyone else catches up and you | are in a better position to innovate. | | Also without these legal barriers if somebody can improve | on it and make it better that's better for the community | and consumer at large and allows for constant iteration. | | Also there is a lot of bad behavior and things encouraged | by the patent system. You have judges giving patents over | technical nuances they can't possibly learn in a | courtroom. You have companies like Intel spending | millions on legal teams to enforce things rather then | engineering innovation, which is great until you are no | longer the dominant player and global players don't play | by those rules. | giantg2 wrote: | Drug companies spend more on marketing than on R&D. Much | of the research is done with grants and government money. | The vast majority of medical devices use the 510K process | for approval, which means they are substantially similar | to existing device (to bypass testing). | | Sure some protection is necessary. You could make it | based on development costs and have much shorter times | for things that were cheap to do. | | "maybe the problem is the role of money in politics and | we should address the root cause. " | | There are a lot of problems in politics that should be | fixed - rules for thee but not for me (rule of law | ignored), basically insider trading, high lifetime | pensions, long careers, two party system, media | bias/lies, and even problems in the voter base (us v | them). Money is an issue, but it's really only good if | the constituents are gullible or believe in the ends | justifying the means. The real root of all of this is | that politicians are a separate class from the rest of us | and aren't accountable to anyone unless their | transgressions are egregious, and then only sometimes. | Rule of law has become a joke. | em3rgent0rdr wrote: | There are good arguments for abolishing or limiting patents. | The cost of monopoly may exceed any benefit. | akira2501 wrote: | > The entire point of patents... | | Well, if that were so, you would expect them to be secret and | to never expire. The fact that are published and expire after | a relatively short period belies the simplicity of that | statement. | giantg2 wrote: | In today's world, 20 years could mean the patented object | is obsolete by the time it is public domain. Having | exclusive use of the technology for the duration of it's | useful life expectancy seems like a monopoly to me... | throwawayboise wrote: | Yes, there is probably a good argument to be made that | many patents should have a shorter protected period. Also | the "non obvious" requirement for an invention seems to | need more emphasis, when an idea like "one click | ordering" can be patented. | giantg2 wrote: | I really feel like ideas shouldn't be patented at all, | just their implementation. | Notanothertoo wrote: | Ever greening patents is standard practice today. This is | why insulin is so expensive. Another good example is | Disney's bs. They have kept thinks out of public domain for | over a hundred years.. The 20 years thing is for the little | guy, if he can ever afford the 50k patent and legal fees in | the first place. | giantg2 wrote: | Disney is copywrite, not patent. Copywrite lasts 50 years | past the creators death (was shorter, but Disney lobbied | to have it extended). | fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: | If it's true that hearing aids shouldn't need a prescription | and can be made cheaply, shouldn't it be easy for anyone who | needs one to buy online from overseas? The same way you can get | grey market viagra. | slg wrote: | >An example of how many (most?) monopolies are able to exist | because of some sort of legal authorization or protection. | Regulatory capture. | | To be clear this "legal authorization or protection" is not | necessarily over regulation. Depending on the market, sometimes | monopolies are the result of too much government regulation and | sometimes they are the result of not enough government | regulation. For example, most of the big tech monopolies do not | exist because of regulatory capture. They exist because the | government never put in enough effort to stop the monopolies | from forming. | Notanothertoo wrote: | Big tech wouldn't have the silos or platform lock downs (ie | power/user capture) they have today without the ip legal | framework. People would be able to legally circumvent their | bs and offer services around gaps in their platforms and | would encourage more competition and result in a less | monopolistic practice. | | I think all monopolies are violence enforced or they are | competitive otherwise somebody would step in and undercut | their costs and the government has a monopoly on violence | so... | walkedaway wrote: | > do not exist because of regulatory capture | | It's reasonable to conclude that Facebook and Twitter have | benefitted greatly by not having expenses to properly monitor | their platform due to section 230 safe harbor exemption. They | are able to get away with selective enforcement on their | platform and not pay a monetary penalty for doing so. | ipaddr wrote: | Some exist because of copyright otherwise Microsoft would | have been legally cloned out of business back in the day. | lotsofpulp wrote: | > For example, most of the big tech monopolies do not exist | because of regulatory capture. They exist because the | government never put in enough effort to stop the monopolies | from forming. | | Is it possible they exist because the immense economies of | scale and near zero marginal cost that software provides | makes for a winner take all market? | | As a customer, why would one use the 2nd best option, when | the best option is available at no extra cost or very little | cost? | slg wrote: | Well yes, that is the "Depending on the market" part I | mentioned in the sentence before the one you quoted. Some | markets have traits that are more likely to lead to natural | monopolies. A government acting in the best interest of its | citizens would usually work on creating regulation in these | markets to discourage monopolies. | cD2nmRoHAbI wrote: | Quoting: 'Markets have traits' | | [sings] IN REAL LIFE WE ARE ALL ZONED IN SPACES (-: | nicoburns wrote: | That and lack of anti-trust action (or other deterrents | against large businesses) on the part of the government. | | A consumer shouldn't chhose the second if they don't want | to. But governments should step in to ensure that the | market remains competetive. | 8ytecoder wrote: | That assumption doesn't go well with what we saw in the | case of Instagram and then Snapchat. Both took significant | share out of Facebook but Facebook was able to buy | Instagram and copy Snapchat to retain its monopoly. The | Instagram acquisition shouldn't have been possible is what | the parent seems to be alluding to. | disgruntledphd2 wrote: | Instagram had 10mn users and a one week old Android app | at the time it was acquired. | | Their ad system was pretty much ported from FB, one | assumes, and their ads were sold by FB reps as part of a | package. | | I honestly don't know if they would have made it | independently (and we'll never know, I guess). | | The snapchat thing was different. Snap had a policy of | focusing on iOS, while FB, IG and Whatsapp (all of which | cloned their core feature) were available on Android. I | personally think Snapchat shot themselves in the foot | with bad product strategy. | | And look at TikTok. They are definitely the biggest | competitor FB have ever faced, so I'd imagine that the | future competitive landscape for them looks much more | difficult than the past. | stevetodd wrote: | > I personally think Snapchat shot themselves in the foot | with bad product strategy. | | Seems to have worked out poorly for them. | maxk42 wrote: | The only problem I see with allowing anyone to offer hearing | aids is the hypothetical problem that a malfunctioning product | may harm someone's hearing further. | | That's a real issue to be addressed, but generally I agree that | making it easier for people to help other people is better than | throwing up obstacles. | yissp wrote: | A huge number of everyday products have the potential to | cause serious harm if they're defective, but they generally | aren't regulated to the extent that hearing aids are. As a | sibling comment points out, the threat of law suits keeps | manufacturers in check. | BurningFrog wrote: | In the pre-regulatory system, you could sue the manufacturer | in those cases. | | I think that was better for most cases. | BurningFrog wrote: | I assume there are countries where you can already buy hearing | aids without prescription? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-07-11 23:00 UTC)