[HN Gopher] Why Build Toys ___________________________________________________________________ Why Build Toys Author : akharris Score : 114 points Date : 2021-07-12 16:44 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (blog.aaronkharris.com) (TXT) w3m dump (blog.aaronkharris.com) | jgerrish wrote: | Great article. | | I'm happy developers have the ability to build and work on things | they love. And create something fun. | | But, at the same time, endless warnings about the seriousness of | toys becoming monster businesses would be more believable if | aborting companies and anti-trust wasn't still a shitshow a | century after the big trusts. | | This isn't the author's fault, but mixing "Let's have a | conversation on Big Tech." with warnings about havoc seems | disingenuous at best. | | We understand that organizations are these complex things that | take over everything and shit everywhere. And at the same time | build things that make you smile and facilitate community. | | We don't as citizens have all the tools to manage that without | drama. | MrLeap wrote: | The latent value of irreverence has been a pillar of the project | I've been working on full time since last October. | | Like, I just added printer support.. | https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1413803026062745600 | | But for the sake of the trees I'm making it grueling | https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414411610844803072 | https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414678420177440769 | | Does anyone even own a printer these days? Who knows? Don't care! | The feature's true purpose is to try and draw out a smile, and | from there maybe a look. The fact it actually works is a nice | side effect. | azhenley wrote: | Exactly. I have a lot of the same feelings, so 6 weeks ago I | wrote a similar blog post, "Why I prefer making making useless | stuff". I haven't quite figured out how to convert my "useless | stuff" into a company yet though... | | Blog post: | https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~azh/blog/makinguselessstuff.html | | HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27256867 | | Reddit discussion: | https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/njcpxt/why_i_p... | [deleted] | akharris wrote: | Fantastic post. | | You say "haven't quite figured out" - does that imply there are | things you wanted to convert but didn't see the path for, or | that the question hasn't truly come up? | _benj wrote: | I loved that article!! Ever since then I've been playing with | some techs that I've been curious since forever but without a | "project" to try them I hadn't... | | The notion of doing something for which I don't care about | github stars or readability or even good programming practices | (1000L files!) it's SO FREEING! | | Thanks for that article, it has helped me found the joy I had | when I was just poking around on the computer, which I've | missed now that I'm a "professional"... | the_only_law wrote: | I get disappointed when I see someone build something cool, but | maybe not commercializable, and the comments come in asking: | "yeah, but how are you planning to monetize it". | | 90% of the side projects I embark in are likely to have no | commercial value, but are pretty cool, at least I'd like to | think. | twoquestions wrote: | Hey, if you had fun building the thing your time was not | wasted. | dylan604 wrote: | It's more about the journey than the destination on most of my | side projects. Yes, the end product is meant to be useable by | me (hence me expending the effort). However, I tend to learn | new build techniques or it's a chance to hone a skill. Do all | of my solder joints look the same/consistent (hopefully good)? | Did I really need to make a biscuit join? Could I have make a | cleaner cut into this plastic using a hot knife vs a spinning | blade? | | You know non-software nerdy hacker stuff. | packetslave wrote: | and the ever-popular snide reply: "you have too much free time | on your hands" | RodgerTheGreat wrote: | "You have too much time undevoted to the advancement of | capitalism on your hands" just doesn't roll off the tongue as | well, I suppose. | rubyn00bie wrote: | Hell yeah. I literally can't be bothered to "finish" something | once I've solved the difficult parts. I've got quite a library | now of software that's 80-90% complete. Almost all of them die | in the final "clean up styling," and "adjust branding" phases | because they're so fucking boring to me. Is it a waste? Oooh | hell no! It's getting to the point where I'm searching my own | fucking code for answers. It's great. "Oh yeah, I totally did | setup, configure, and deploy an custom search engine built on | Lucene" or "oh yeah I totally spent four months researching | encryption algos, which one was best for the time/CPU budget I | have? Let me check." | | It's nice to hear others are the same or at least enjoy the | journey. Maybe this will be the motivation I need to starting | releasing them "as-is" which is more of a "journey included, | destination not determined" state... | [deleted] | rpastuszak wrote: | I'm not sure about you, but the more experienced I am, as a | developer or "builder", the smaller things I end up making. | | For instance, I launched a bunch of games that are, frankly, more | fun to watch, than to play (e.g. an All-hands meeting simulator: | https://rafsters.itch.io/all-hands) or little tools this one | https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/ (it's stupid, completely | replaceable, but somewhat adorable). | | I come from a family with 4 generations of carpenters. It's a | profession more similar to software engineering that most | engineering jobs I can think of. The main difference is that in | our domain so often the results of our work just don't feel real. | | If you're in this situation and this frustrates you, either build | something small that people would use OR go ahead build something | useless, but intentionally. | gregsadetsky wrote: | Loved the All-hands meeting simulator! Congrats | samstave wrote: | You should add: | | "Make the world a better place?" | | to the agenda | ehnto wrote: | > an All-hands meeting simulator: | | Ha! Fantastic. | | > I come from a family with 4 generations of carpenters. It's a | profession more similar to software engineering that most | engineering jobs I can think of. The main difference is that in | our domain so often the results of our work just don't feel | real. | | That is the core issue I have with software development, it can | feel ephemeral and extremely temporary. | | My remediation for this is partially game development too, | since the artifact you create is immersive and directly enjoyed | by others, it can make you feel surprisingly connected to the | world. | spoonjim wrote: | It sucks how temporary software is, especially Web software. | If you don't pay the hosting bill it's gone. If you don't | upgrade to 64 but it's useless. Essentially it's a plate | spinning on a stick and it needs constant attention to | survive. | | Contrast that to a fine piece of furniture which barring fire | or flood can just sit abandoned in a warehouse for 300 years | and then be even more valuable than it was initially. | nicoburns wrote: | Thw flip side being that once built you can potentially | reach thousands if not millions of people with your | project. | fossuser wrote: | This is some of the appeal of urbit to me: | https://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional- | progr... | | That blog post is old, urbit does exist now. | hytdstd wrote: | This article is extremely long-winded. Do you mind | providing a summary of what exactly appeals to you? | | Also: Is "C. Guy Yarvin" Curtis Yarvin? | [deleted] | Matticus_Rex wrote: | > Also: Is "C. Guy Yarvin" Curtis Yarvin? | | Yeah, Urbit was Yarvin's project until 2019 when he left | the company. | fossuser wrote: | Core idea is how can you design a software system that | avoids the pitfalls of spinning plate on a stick that | requires constant maintenance as the world shifts around | it, 'the big ball of mud'. | | One way to do this is to design a system where all events | of the system can be replayed from start to finish in an | immutable/repeatable way. Taking the advantages of state | guarantees from functional language design and applying | something similar to an entire OS. | | You can design something that abstracts this general | design away from specific implementations of pieces that | interact with the underlying system today (*nix). | | This podcast doesn't a decent job of introducing some of | the concepts: | https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding- | urbit/id... | | It's a little hard to summarize in a really short comment | because there's a lot of new/first principles thinking | that doesn't analogize super cleanly to the existing | software stack people are familiar with (which is why | it's interesting). | | Yeah that's Curtis Yarvin, I think his neo-reactionary | politics are wrong [0], but the design and ideas behind | urbit are good (and he's no longer directly involved in | the project). | | [0]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti- | reactionary-f... | tdumitrescu wrote: | I dunno, as someone with a lot of antique furnishings in a | 19th-century house, I'd say that there's quite a bit of | ongoing maintenance to prevent the march of time and usual | wear and tear from grinding everything to dust! | samstave wrote: | I'm 46. I have been working in SV since ~1996 | | I have had several existential crisis wondering *"what the | fuck am I doing this for, we produce nothing."* | | --- | | This happened to me at FB, SF, Lucas, Brocade... | | I was like "yeah, im doing well professionally, making | money - but at the end of the day, it was just "we produce | nothing of intrinsic value" | | I find it ironic that NFTs are now the version of creating | something of digital content, but it has non-fungible | (intrinsic value) and they are attempting to make a money | laundering network out of NFTs (if you may not be aware, | the art market is the largest money laundering scheme ever | devised up until where we are at present. | | I am currently going through a mid-life, as I can't stand | tech at all - but its all I know, so I am attempting to | just get into gardening and maybe work at a nursery... | forgotmypw17 wrote: | I'm a little younger than you, so I want to ask this: | | If it were up to you, alone or with a team you're in | charge of, do you think you could come up with a piece of | software which would be less ephemeral and more lasting, | perhaps being able to work unadministered or requiring | minimum administration for a while, and be usable AND | useful for years without any major changes? | | What would it look like, and what would its pieces be | made of? | armchairhacker wrote: | > we produce nothing of intrinsic value | | Idk about that. You could say the same about a farmer or | a banker or a teacher etc. Even the guys who build the | Empire State building - there were probably hundreds of | them, each only building a small part - and someday that | will get lost in time also. | | "Intrinsic value" is whatever you define it to be. I | guess if you're working for some ad-sales-management | company making software for other big companies, then you | probably don't think you're making much intrinsic value. | But my philosophy is, just try to make the world a | slightly better place to live in when you leave. And even | a small library or project may help others working on | bigger projects, which influence bigger projects, which | cause real change. | jacquesm wrote: | Imagine your whole life has been spent flipping bits. | Highly frustrating, I'm really happy that I also have some | real world skills and I'm always wondering whether the | buildings that I put up will outlive me. | k2xl wrote: | Do you have a video of the all hands simulator? | thearn4 wrote: | I think this is related to why I got into stain glass window | making as a pandemic hobby. As everything I was working on felt | ephemeral and physically disconnecting, it was refreshing to | take on something both creative and tangible. | slmjkdbtl wrote: | It's insane people automatically use the word "useless" for | anything that cannot directly or indirectly turn into capital or | material gain, a lot of cases it just brings happiness directly | (which is the desired result of any capital and material gain). | mattpratt wrote: | Similar to this one from a16z: https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the- | next-big-thing-will-start-... | | While Aaron's essay approaches the analogy from the perspective | of those building, the linked essay approaches it from the | market's perspective. For builders, don't take yourself so | seriously -- but on the flip side, don't be so quick to write new | things off as silly. | svilen_dobrev wrote: | IMO making toys is the hardest thing of all designs... too long- | shot/perspective to cover.. like while some adult may be able to | tell what he likes/dislikes about a thing, it not so for kids.. | esp. in long run. | | it's a blessing that some (physical or not at all) toys still | exist without being monetized.. although the trends with | everything-being-appz might kill that some day | | maybe OT, but some 10+y ago, i passed through few continents and | cultures within 3-4 months, and while looking for toys for the | kids to bring home from that journey, in plenty of places, i | realized something.. the culture/society is somehow representable | by what toys it makes for it's kids. Somewhat like the cultural | dimensions thing, but in different aspects.. Like shallow vs | deep, curiousness vs just-grinding, beautiful vs ugly, well | crafted vs cheaply, etc. And funny, Rich/expensive as $$$ doesnot | always correspond to richness of toy-experience/perception. Of | course it's rather subjective, YMMV | svilen_dobrev wrote: | now on topic.. quoting "Business is about making money and | working with customers. These are very serious and scary things. | Toys are for playing and trying new things. This isn't serious at | all": | | Maybe the problem is that what is called/accepted as "serious" is | the opposite of it? A toy for shapeing a mind (of kids) may be | looooots more serious/important that some $$$$$ made per-day.. | kind-a the 4th planet the little prince visited.. | [deleted] | dimatura wrote: | Anki (the robotics toy company, not the flash cards) comes to | mind. IIRC they had aspirations to build non-toy tech. It didn't | work out, though, as they shut down last year. It's unfortunate - | I got one of their vector robots for cheap after they shut down | and it's a fun little gadget. | juliend2 wrote: | My favorite tool for thinking visually is totally in that | mindset: https://kinopio.club/ ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-07-12 23:00 UTC)