[HN Gopher] GM has signed an agreement to extract lithium from b...
___________________________________________________________________
GM has signed an agreement to extract lithium from beneath the
Salton Sea
Author : toomanyrichies
Score : 224 points
Date : 2021-07-17 16:40 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.autoweek.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.autoweek.com)
| 01100011 wrote:
| I find that area geologically fascinating. It's one of the few
| above-water rift zones in the world. According to
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salton_Trough the sediment fills it
| in as quickly as it sinks, so you have sediment in some areas
| going down 20,000 feet.
|
| The earthquakes seem to come in swarms out there, which I think
| is a result of the pulling apart. In a thrust fault or strike-
| slip fault, you have a release of energy and while the stress is
| transferred somewhere else, that seems to be the end of the
| movement. When you pull two plates apart, you create a gap and
| the stuff above it sort of settles down into the gap, probably
| causing the successive earthquakes as it all settles into the new
| position.
|
| I really wish we had a canal to the Salton Sea. Having a new
| inland port and a source of fresher water would dramatically
| change the area.
| mogadsheu wrote:
| As a former geologist, it's always awesome to see some one
| interested in geology.
|
| If you're into infill from normal faulting, you might like
| reading up on the US Basin and Range--that's all extension and
| basin fill
| 01100011 wrote:
| Geology is absolutely fascinating! I'm really amazed at far
| geologists have progressed in establishing the history of our
| planet. I have to thank Nick Zentner's YouTube
| videos(https://www.youtube.com/user/GeologyNick) for getting
| me into geology. He has a very approachable style for non-
| geologists.
|
| I've been looking at the geology of Nevada more since the
| Mina, NV earthquake storm started(2020? I forget). Geologic
| activity is such a slow process so it's great when you can
| see a burst of activity like that. I doubt I'll live long
| enough to see it, but I'm hoping I can see the emergence of a
| new volcanic cone in the western NV/eastern CA region.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Likely this will be a bad development for the community at Slab
| City.
| finiteseries wrote:
| There should be plenty of copper wiring available at the build
| sites.
| okareaman wrote:
| I was there recently to see Salvation Mountain. It's been taken
| over by a bunch of acid casualties who have posted 'no picture'
| signs. A bunch of them came running towards me when I got out
| of the car to take a picture. I fully expected to hear bullets
| whizzing by my head as I got back in the car and drove off.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Wonder if this is because they don't want to be photographed
| or if they want to extract money out of the situation.
| okareaman wrote:
| I didn't stick around to find out and they weren't in a
| talkative mood. It was like an attack by zombies. Slab City
| is romanticized on the internet, but it looks to me like a
| dumping ground for humans who have been run out of every
| town they tried to live in.
| thirtyseven wrote:
| How recently? I was there in December and it wasn't like that
| at all.
| okareaman wrote:
| This was Spring 2020. It could have been they were afraid
| of tourists bring in Covid.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| They claim to own the photons reflecting off Salvation Mtn?
| maxmamis wrote:
| maybe if you walk into a community and immediately disrespect
| their rules you shouldn't expect a particularly warm welcome
| okareaman wrote:
| They have no right to disallow photos. Salvation Mountain
| wasn't built by them and has become an artwork that belongs
| to all.
| MisterTea wrote:
| Weird. About two months ago I was browsing around google earth in
| california when i came across a weird looking lake called salton
| sea. I read the wikipedia article and was astonished as to how
| much a disaster it is.
| echelon wrote:
| Presuming we have 100% oil-powered car and jet transit vs 100%
| electric (assuming electric planes are developed), which one is
| worse for the environment? Oil or lithium?
|
| Assume transportation levels remain constant or continue to grow.
|
| What's the cost of the entire lifecycle? Mining/extraction,
| carbon emissions, recycling (or not), etc.
|
| Honest question.
|
| I'm coming from a disposition where it seems like lithium will be
| just as bad or worse from a mining and remediation perspective,
| worse from a recycling perspective, but better for carbon
| sequestration assuming we get power from solar, wind, nuclear,
| etc. and not coal. It seems like electric will also increase
| cardiovascular and pulmonary health since many studies link air
| quality to endothelial aging.
|
| Overall, I'm curious if the trade-off are worth it.
|
| I'm also interested in the geopolitical angle.
|
| The US has energy on lock under the old regime, but energy
| alternatives seem as though they'll favor Europe and China (China
| especially for lithium), but not the oil powers. It also de-risks
| dependence on oil and coal for many countries that are net
| importers. Is this correct? How (or will?) a switch to electric
| transportation change the geopolitical world? Substantially?
|
| Edit: downvoted for questions.
| peter303 wrote:
| Battery powered long distance flight is unlikely because
| gasoline/kerosene has 5 times the weight energy density of
| lithium ion. Short haul flights may be viable. Hydrogen fuel
| cell planes even better because hydrogen has 3 times the weight
| energy density of jet fuel and 15 times lithium batteries.
| lazide wrote:
| Hydrogen is a non starter because of the need for heavy tanks
| no?
|
| Batteries are sealed contained
| Tagbert wrote:
| What you may see are efforts to convert short-haul flights to
| electricity where the limited range is less of an issue.
| selectodude wrote:
| Long-haul flights work because burning the fuel means that
| it's no longer weight being carried. In terms of energy to
| carried weight ratio, it's basically infinite.
| ju-st wrote:
| There is only very little lithium in "lithium" batteries
| (1-10%). Batteries last a long time and even when they've lost
| a lot of capacity they are still usable in cheap used cars and
| can be repurposed as stationary energy storage.
| bertil wrote:
| It's roughly comparable for extraction cost for comparable
| weight: large variation depending on circumstances, etc. but
| you need 63 kg of Lithium for a Telsa that should drive a
| million miles. You'd need 50 thousand gallons of gas (200,000 L
| or 160 tons) to cover the same distance. So about three
| thousands times worst. The lifecycle balance isn't something
| you can draw at scale on a high-definition screen and have the
| electric impact occupy more than a pixel or two.
|
| Same for Cobalt: it used to be used to make batteries, so there
| are worrisome stories but the metal is also something that
| refineries put in gas so... kinda the same: you are comparing a
| component with a consumable.
|
| Finally, you mention China, or you could have asked about Chile
| to, for Lithium. Neither are really the largest producers. They
| sure sound politically scary but it's harder to paint Australia
| has a dangerous dictature. Scary countries aren't the biggest
| marginal plan if prices go up: the reserves in Canada and USA
| are more promising.
|
| So yeah: shifting to those technologies will force a big
| geopolitical change and the executives at fossil fuel companies
| who _boasted being accused of war crimes as a sign of
| commitment a sure way to advance their careers in front of
| large group including me (sic)_ might have a bit of a
| reckoning. I'll let you guess which war zone, environmental
| disaster there were talking so causally about, because they are
| so many -- hint: they were also accused of genocide there;
| except that's not really a helpful hint, is it? The oil barons
| in the Gulf who routinely use slavery and prostitue girls as
| young as 7 or 8, both in broad daylight, might have to change
| their lifestyle too.
|
| Some people think that having a CEO posting weird meme on
| twitter, or advocating for long shift to end [see paragraph
| above] is unacceptable. Sure, it's improvable as far as
| leadership goes, but... I like to ask: what's the alternative?
| If we don't have that, what do we have? In my case, it's the
| eyes of a little girl, dragged through the hall of a luxurious
| hotel in Dubai. The documentarian who filmed and commented that
| scene had no doubt what was happening, or who paid for it: he
| did, every time he filled his tank.
| lanstin wrote:
| Right now carbon dioxide caused warming is more serious threat
| than a few more toxic metals. Sunlight is basically free money
| raining down all the time.
| k33n wrote:
| So you believe that carbon dioxide -- which will be used by
| plants to generate oxygen -- is a greater threat to the
| environment than toxic metals, which will take millions of
| years to dissipate? Something seems off...
| pertymcpert wrote:
| Plants don't absorb CO2 to get oxygen, they absorb it to
| get carbon.
|
| And what do you think happens to the plants afterwards? Do
| they store the carbon forever? What happens when they die?
| pfdietz wrote:
| Yes, CO2 is currently a much larger threat.
| lanstin wrote:
| Also, by definition silicon (panels) and lithium (batteries)
| are super common elements. Not going to be hard to find.
| Unlike oil, you can use the solar panels to fab more solar
| panels, because of the sun's input. You can't use coal to
| make more coal. The solar inputs are long since gone.
| aae42 wrote:
| Probably downvoted because there are a plethora of sources out
| there for you to easily do your own checking on.
|
| - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-
| vehicles...
|
| - https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsmoor/2019/05/20/are-
| el...
|
| - https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-electric-cars-really-
| better...
|
| There may be some articles from not as reputable sources that
| may find the answer to be a little more controversial... The
| TL;DR is generally: yes... electric is always greener, it's
| just a matter of how much. As they become more and more
| sustainably powered, the difference increases.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| Also, this line of "EVs are worse for the environment because
| of coal powered grids" is literally oil industry propaganda.
| [deleted]
| wwtrv wrote:
| It depends, if all of the energy you use to charge your car
| is produced in states like Wyoming or West Virginia (both
| of which export several times more electricity than they
| consume) driving a hybrid or any small/efficient IC car is
| definitely better.
|
| I think banning coal is something that we should definitely
| do before even considering banning IC cars...
| Tagbert wrote:
| According the the study by the Union of Concerned
| Scientists, an EV powered by 100% coal produces about the
| same CO2 as a 50mpg ICE car. Very few grids are that
| dirty. Once you get out of those areas, the EV is much
| cleaner.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| Even West Virginia isn't 100% coal fired, most states are
| far cleaner than a hypothetical 100% coal fired grid.
| wwtrv wrote:
| It's not 100% but not that far off
| https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=WV#tabs-4 and it exports
| enough energy to fully power Maryland, Delaware and New
| Jersey (just an example for scale, all of those states
| produce most of their energy locally). Not trying to
| imply that we shouldn't replace IC as well, but getting
| rid of coal powered plants seems like fairly low hanging
| fruit to me.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| You have to be running 100% coal power plants before EVs are
| worse for the environment. For a pure oil fired power grid,
| which does not exist anywhere in America, EVs would win hands
| down. Once you get to a mix of natural gas, coal, and
| renewables, which is actually what the US grid looks like then
| EVs are massively better than gasoline cars.
| wwtrv wrote:
| Internal combustion engines are actually very efficient.
|
| Burning gasoline in a power plant produces 2.13 pounds of CO2
| per kWh, Model 3 LR consumes 16 kWh per 100km, so 34.08lb of
| CO2. A car consuming 7 liters of gas per 100km would emit
| 35lb of CO2. I assume energy loss from plant to battery is
| not insignificant so the IC should be better if the power
| grid is 100% petroleum (for coal it should be 2x worse).
|
| Sources:
|
| https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11
|
| https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/info-
| tools/One%20tab...
| gpm wrote:
| Worth noting that your CO2 emission value for gasoline
| powered vehicles is tailpipe emissions, the total value
| (well to wheels) should be very roughly 25% higher.
|
| I don't know exactly what CO2 production your power plant
| number includes.
|
| https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.6b02819#tbl1
| wwtrv wrote:
| Thanks just wanted to make a rough approximation since a
| purely coal/petrol network is not realistic anyway.
|
| https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Net%20gen
| era...
|
| I believe it's electricity generated at the plant, so we
| should add 5-15% for transmission losses and 8-20%
| depending on charger efficiency.
|
| Assuming 5% transmission and 10% charging loss using the
| well-to-wheel figures you posted charging in a 100% coal
| grid should be equivalent to and around 5.7l/100km /
| 41mpg IC car.
| Tagbert wrote:
| All the reports I've seen show that, from a CO2 standpoint,
| an EV powered 100% by coal still produced less CO2 than
| gasoline even though there is additional CO2 produced during
| the battery production. It takes about 14K miles for an EV to
| reach the point in its lifetime where it is producing less
| CO2 overall than a gasoline car. After that, it's all upside.
| EVen then most electric grids are not so dirty and include a
| mix of coal, oil, gas, hydro, solar and wind with the
| renewable percentage increasing.
| jordache wrote:
| that's fine with me.. the imperial valley is a man made cluster f
| anyways.. It's a naturally desert environment with very little
| redeemable qualities, other than mineral extraction.
| aurizon wrote:
| Lithium battery recycling of high efficiency requres a known feed
| of one type of battery, Most scrap batteries with a mixture of
| assorted chemistry laptop batteries in small quantities can not
| optimize. Big players sort all their cells into knows
| metals/chemistry etc. for best recovery Tesla and other car
| makers will present a known consistent feed of old batteries and
| will be able to reclaim 95%++ of the battery metal content. The
| recycle field is getting crowded, but car makers have the high
| card as they can make their own recycling system in house. I bet
| Panasonic and LG have recycling - they will not leave that $$ on
| the table.
| wcunning wrote:
| Also worth noting is that the entire automotive industry has a
| complete system for capturing functional enough used parts --
| the core charge when buying a new part. Even shade tree
| mechanics feed into recycling those things to be bored out,
| sleeved and resold to a new person. I would expect nothing less
| of something with such high intrinsic material value.
| londons_explore wrote:
| By grinding up a wide enough variety of batteries you can get a
| pretty consistent mix. You then smelt it to metal as if it were
| ore.
|
| The waste gasses are the most expensive to treat properly.
|
| Sure, some catch fire, but most smelters are kinda fireproof
| already...
| aurizon wrote:
| You can grind and smelt, risky as it is unless nitrogen
| blanketed? however this presents you with a hard to resolve
| mixture - usually the cheapest components are sacrificed for
| the Ni, Co and Li = even then it is a nuisance.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbkhXAP1EQE
| grouphugs wrote:
| ahh yes, nothing like poisoning the sea after poisoning africa
| fnord77 wrote:
| > California Energy Commission's estimate that the Salton Sea
| area could produce 600,000 tons of lithium per year, which is
| amazing since the entire world's industry produced a mere 85,000
| tons of lithium in all of 2019.
| manquer wrote:
| The report says 600,000 tons lithium carbonate [1] per year.
|
| Given that Li(2)CO(3) is the molecular structure of lithium
| carbonate and 14:12:48 is the molar mass ratio. Therefore there
| is no more than 1/5 of that in actual lithium so about 120,000
| tones.
|
| Still larger than today's world consumption but not as
| unrelastically high I guess.
|
| [1] https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2020/08/05/geothermal-brines-
| coul...
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| This seems suspiciously high. Even 60,000 tons would almost
| double the global supply. I would be surprised if this turns
| out to be accurate.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| It's 20,000 tons in stage 1 which is still huge.
|
| https://investingnews.com/company-profiles/controlled-
| therma...
|
| Hell's Kitchen is expected to have a minimum 30 year life.
| Stage 1 of production is slated to begin in 2023, with a
| 20,000 tonnes per annum lithium hydroxide facility along with
| the generation of 49.9 megawatts of renewable energy from the
| integrated geothermal power plant.
| selectodude wrote:
| "Could" and "will do so very shortly" aren't mutually
| exclusive.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Lithium is not actually rare. I think this is a big source of
| continuing confusion in discussions on battery-electric
| electric vehicles (of all types: bikes, cars, trucks, buses,
| vans, airplanes, ships, trains, etc) and renewable energy
| (grid storage).
|
| Production capacity equals demand, roughly. That should not
| be surprising as production capacity costs money and you
| don't invest in more production capacity than you have
| demand. Proven reserves ALSO are some fairly low multiple of
| demand, for related reasons.
| coenhyde wrote:
| yeah but for how long? 10 years? 30? 1?
| manquer wrote:
| The estimated reserves in SSGF(salton sea geothermal field)
| is 15 million metric tones[1].
|
| Assuming the estimates are somewhat reliable at their
| projected annual draw it is 30 years worth. It is also to be
| noted that neither is the annual global demand close to that
| yet nor is the technology mature enough to extract that
| quantum yet so probably 50-60 years actual life time of the
| field which is not atypical for fields for other resources.
|
| Also estimate is fore 600,000 tones of lithium carbonate not
| pure lithium.
|
| [1] https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2020/08/05/geothermal-brines-
| coul...
| coenhyde wrote:
| A nice little reserve then!
| twobitshifter wrote:
| Close - 2023
|
| https://investingnews.com/company-profiles/controlled-
| therma...
|
| Controlled Thermal Resources anticipates commencement of
| commercial production at Hell's Kitchen in 2023. The
| production of geothermal power at Hell's Kitchen provides CTR
| the ability to participate in California's growing renewable
| energy market. In January 2020, CTR announced it had entered
| into a 25 year power purchase agreement (PPA) with Imperial
| Irrigation District (IID), the largest irrigation district in
| North America and the sixth-largest electrical utility in
| California.
|
| With the assistance of its project engineering partner Hatch
| Ltd., Controlled Thermal Resources completed its Canadian
| National Instrument 43-101 (NI 43-101) Technical Report, and
| the accompanying Preliminary Economic Assessment (PEA). CTR
| has initiated a Prefeasibility Study (PFS) and commenced well
| pad construction in anticipation of drilling its first two
| geothermal wells.
| desine wrote:
| The Salton Sea is already a man made disaster deep into
| ecological collapse. Even if they do it terribly, I doubt they'll
| make anything worse. It's also a region with no economic future,
| so hopefully this brings some jobs. This will be interesting to
| watch, I'm hopeful.
| samstave wrote:
| HoldMyCarbonCredits while we make the Salton Sea a SuperFund-
| Site! [0]
|
| ---
|
| Anyone know how recoverable Lithium is from Lithium batts? Does
| the Lithium degrade/denature/deconstruct over time in all
| lithium batteries? How bad for the environment is all the
| Lithium we are throwing out with all these used up batteries?
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites
| Tagbert wrote:
| The first thing recovered from salvaged batteries will be the
| cobalt and similar materials in the electrodes. Those are
| much less plentiful than lithium.
| parsecs wrote:
| There is only a tiny bit of lithium in lithium batteries,
| afaik.
| nitrogen wrote:
| Lithium is everywhere, especially in salt lakes. A long time
| ago I met someone whose family ran a mineral extraction
| company, of which there are many around Salt Lake City. They
| take the lake water and evaporate it. The main non-water
| ingredient in the concentrated brine was lithium.
|
| (Though the guy was drinking the stuff as a supplement, which
| probably affected his personality a bit)
| antisthenes wrote:
| That tidbit about drinking it is the most interesting part
| of this whole thread!
|
| Are they the same lithium salts that are prescribed as
| medication for certain psychological disorders?
| _Nat_ wrote:
| Yup!
|
| Dunno if modern medications may also include other
| active-ingredients to compliment lithium, but lithium
| itself is pretty much the same thing as sodium or
| potassium in terms of its simplicity as a chemical
| species.
|
| Since lithium has a +1 charge as a cation (positively
| charged ion) in salt, it needs to be balanced with an
| anion (negatively charged ion), so the exact salt can
| vary in solid-form. But once it dissolves in water, such
| as in the body, then it's not really bound to the anion
| anymore and so the exact anion it was originally ingested
| with isn't particularly important.
|
| Apparently some people used to drink [mineral water with
| lithium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithia_water).
|
| Reference:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_(medication)
| jdavis703 wrote:
| No, the drug lithium carbonate is just that. It's
| literally a powder that comes in a capsule.
| learc83 wrote:
| I grew up in Lithia Springs. They still bottle and sell
| the water from the spring.
| sdenton4 wrote:
| lithium recovery: https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent
| .cgi?article=3421...
|
| Seems possible; not sure of economic value at this particular
| point in history. There's a bunch of recent headlines about
| trivial extraction of lithium from seawater, so might get
| less economically feasible if those techs pan out. OTOH, even
| if it's not obviously worth it, you could try burying it all
| in one place and then 'mine' it once the economics swing
| towards recovery.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| Elements tend to not degrade quickly outside of nuclear
| reactors as a general rule.
| jhayward wrote:
| The Salton sea is just the latest iteration of the cycle of
| freshwater lakes[1] that form, then dry up in that location in
| the Colorado River delta. The fact that a canal cut formed the
| latest one does not distinguish it much from the several
| version over the last few thousand years of natural formations.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Cahuilla
| jakear wrote:
| Huh. I've been to Salton Sea a couple times and always really
| enjoy it. Nice place to kayak, the mist over the sea with the
| surrounding mountains makes it very picturesque the right time
| of day, and there aren't motorboats flying by every second
| blasting music like you get with most lakes open to boating in
| SoCal.
|
| I've only been in winter, which I'm sure helps. I certainly
| wouldn't want to go in >100 degree heat.
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| I've been there once. It's a super weird place. I stopped by
| Salton City on the west side of the lake
| (https://goo.gl/maps/ksWdbiRFfpnUBE6X8). The town has 50%
| nice-ish, occupied homes & 50% derelict buildings that looked
| like dilapidated crack houses. The shore was super stinky,
| covered with dead fish (tilapia I assume) & the smell you'd
| expect to go with it.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Even if they do it terribly, I doubt they'll make anything
| worse."
|
| You can always make things worse.
|
| So I hope this will not be an excuse to be even more careless
| with the exploitation, even though more lithium is beneficial,
| too.
| okareaman wrote:
| I had go take a road trip to see for myself. Nearby Slab City
| is a nightmare, but Salton Sea wasn't too bad for a salt lake
| in the desert. There are picnic tables and campsites. There's a
| palm tree farm on the north end. In a little town on the
| water's edge, I found the sign for the the old Bombay Beach
| Club: https://imgur.com/a/eifJkzB
| suzzer99 wrote:
| I love exploring around the Salton Sea because it feels like
| a post-apocalyptic version of the US. You're definitely not
| going for the aesthetics.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| Isn't Slab City just a place that people go because they can
| squat there and no one cares?
| suzzer99 wrote:
| There are a lot of artists, and they even have a "club"
| made up of old abandoned couches where they have occasional
| outdoor concerts. It's pretty wild.
| monetus wrote:
| It is romanticized among other things.
| colordrops wrote:
| There are definitely addicts out there but I went with my
| family and met some nice people a few years ago. The art
| installation was interesting and the hippies running the
| library gave my kid a book. I wouldn't want to live out
| there for sure though.
| lizknope wrote:
| I drove around Slab City so that I could see Salvation
| Mountain. It was... interesting.
|
| Bombay Beach was scary and depressing.
|
| The smell was fine when I was there but there are frequent
| massive fish die offs.
|
| Something has to be done about it though. If it dries up
| (irrigation runoff feeds the lake but irrigation is getting
| more efficient causing less runoff) then the dry lake bed
| will blow over Palm Springs and other towns in the area. It's
| full of toxic dust now.
|
| Migrating birds also use it as a stopover point because we
| have gotten rid of so many natural wetlands.
| tomc1985 wrote:
| Slab City is it's own thing. It was probably a nightmare
| because they are not trying to appeal to you... or anyone
|
| I think it's the only semilegal squatting village in
| California
| ravenstine wrote:
| I had the opposite experience. I'm normally the kind of
| person who likes visiting unusual places, but I found nothing
| appealing about the Salton Sea. The smell was horrendous,
| there were flies and bees everywhere, and the rural decay
| wasn't really as impressive as in those artsy HDR photos.
| It's a horrible place that I vowed never to return to.
| okareaman wrote:
| I think it depends on the time of year. For example, when I
| drove to Alaska in the spring, I found the wilderness
| beautiful, but the locals told me if I had come in the
| summer I would have been assaulted by swarms of giant
| mosquitos.
| winrid wrote:
| Sounds like the locals really liked you. :)
| okareaman wrote:
| I don't think they were lying because I saw joke signs
| declaring the giant mosquito as the Alaska state bird
| grawprog wrote:
| Not just mosquitoes, black flies and horse flies too. I
| hate fly bites personally. They hurt and they bleed
| sometimes and flies will pursue you relentlessly. Even if
| you go into water, they'll just sit and wait for you to
| resurface.
| dataviz1000 wrote:
| > there were flies and bees everywhere
|
| That's a good thing
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| We sat down at a table to eat breakfast there during our
| road trip and within 10 minutes we were swarmed with a
| horde of disgusting flies. The entire shore was littered
| with bones from dead fish. The area looks quite ok from
| the confines of an air conditioned vehicle.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| "Disgusting flies"? That's pretty specieist...
|
| You're just passing through where they LIVE
| lanstin wrote:
| Awesome documentary on it:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_%26_Pleasures_on_the_S...
|
| John Waters narrating.
|
| I took my family there in a trip we also saw Las Vegas, the Mt
| Palomar telescope, LA tar pits, and Palm Springs. It is too
| disgusting to be educational. At least when we went it stank to
| high heaven and we ended up with rotting fish flesh all over
| our pants. The dumb dog liked it. Everyone else uses it as a
| cautionary tale about letting me chose destinations for
| vacation. Getting 10x existing Lithium production would be
| great use of it.
|
| There are some extremely good date palm farms north of it. It
| you like figs and dates, check them out.
| marzell wrote:
| It is free to watch (legitimately) on YouTube:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TjGAWxL23c
|
| It's a pretty unique/interesting watch.
| giantg2 wrote:
| My big question is, how are there still fish living there to
| die? I would have thought they would have died out years ago.
| desine wrote:
| Life... uh... finds a way
| giantg2 wrote:
| Then why did they die?
|
| There are fish that can survive various levels of salt
| and other conditions. But if the conditions were right
| for them to survive, reproduce, etc, then why suddenly
| die? It seems like there could be a cycle since other
| said they experienced the same die off, but then what is
| the cause of the cycle and how do any survive to create
| the carcasses for the next die-off?
| lizknope wrote:
| The salinity of the Salton Sea is very high. All of the
| fish that were introduced have died except for tilapia
| and the desert pupfish. They are the only fish that can
| tolerate the high salt levels.
|
| https://speciesfishing.com/fishing-the-salton-sea/
|
| There are periodic mass die offs. The most common is
| because of botulism.
|
| Avian botulism, caused by bacteria, usually occurs in the
| spring time when the winds are very strong and push all
| of the old, deoxygenated water from the bottom of the
| Salton Sea to the top, depleting the oxygen available for
| the fish, causing them to die. As the fish die, the birds
| eat them, and get sick from contracting the bacteria. The
| birds then die and get feasted on by maggots which then
| infect birds feasting on the maggots. This can result in
| massive bird mortality. The species most affected by
| avian botulism are waterfowl and shorebirds.
|
| https://wildlife.ca.gov/Regions/6/Salton-Sea-Birds
| desine wrote:
| The fish and bird population has been in continuous
| decline. The lake used to get enough freshwater
| replenishment to maintain a relatively balanced salinity
| level and saltwater ecosystem. Now, the salinity is
| continuously increasing over time. The most hearty
| specimens are able to survive and reproduce, but much of
| the wildlife has died out. Large amounts of biomass soak
| in the saline solution, becoming pickled fish and birds,
| adding to the scent that others have commented on.
|
| Collapse is not instantaneous. Nor is it all-
| encompassing. Even left unchecked for another 100 years,
| you would still find _some_ forms of life present, but
| not the ones you see today.
| [deleted]
| jdhn wrote:
| My curiosity is getting the better of me, why would you
| choose the Salton Sea as a vacation destination?
| Exmoor wrote:
| OP replied with their reason, but I personally have visited
| the Salton Sea numerous times when in southern California.
| I find it truly fascinating. It has a very post-apocolyptic
| feel. From an ecological perspective it occupies a very
| unique niche. It's 90 miles form the nearest ocean and has
| large populations of oceanic birds such as Brown Pelicans.
| jacobkg wrote:
| Post apocalyptic is right. When we drove by it we also
| encountered a number of large ATV groups driving around,
| mad max style
| lanstin wrote:
| It is the second largest lake in California. I was new to
| California and just looking for interesting things. My
| quick googling was clearly insufficient. Tho it was
| interesting in some sense. Also it's kind of in the area of
| the other places that were ok. Tar pits are awesome. Mt
| Palomar very cool. Las Vegas unique and notable if not
| actually my cup of tea.
| eplanit wrote:
| For me, it would be because of a great ("great" as in Ed
| Wood style film-making) movie "The Monster that Challenged
| the World" (even the title seems low budget).
|
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050722/
|
| tl;dr "An earthquake in the Salton Sea unleashes a horde of
| prehistoric mollusk monsters. Discovering the creatures, a
| Naval officer and several scientists attempt to stop the
| monsters, but they escape into the canal system of the
| California's Imperial Valley and terrorize the populace"
| krallja wrote:
| I had my family stop by a few years ago because I had heard
| about it in a What-If? https://what-if.xkcd.com/152/
|
| I wouldn't recommend it. The route we took was through a
| residential area. The neighbors did not seem like they
| wanted us to be there. We went to the water's edge, smelled
| the "objectionable," "noxious," "unique," and "pervasive"
| odor (as described by the US Geological Survey), looked at
| the shitty beach, and left. There's not much to do.
| MisterTea wrote:
| That's because it's slum tourism and residents hate being
| the unwilling cast of a sideshow attraction. "Oh honey,
| look at the locals inhaling the toxic plume wafting off
| this mess we can safely leave behind forever in a few
| minutes. Say cheese!"
|
| There's a neighborhood by me which has earned a similar
| reputation and the residents have been known to tell slum
| tourists to leave.
|
| Its gross. Don't do that.
| jws wrote:
| Just west of it is Ocotillo Wells. You can rent a quad bike
| and tour around it for an afternoon. There is a fossil reef
| (oyster shells), an odd rock formation called the pumpkin
| patch, some mud with mysterious subterranean gas that
| bubbles out, and general desert scenery. A little further
| west is Anza Borrega. More desert, but there is a nice hike
| through the desert to a palm tree oasis which just sort of
| pops up out of nowhere. Outside the town are inexplicable
| (unless you read about it) huge steel sculptures.
| narrator wrote:
| Nearby Slab City is an interesting place to visit if one is
| into weird stuff. It's an old abandoned area that was once
| a military base that people have turned into a very
| unplanned squatter community. It's notable because there
| are some impressive community art pieces.
|
| The place has managed to avoid accumulating the truly
| destructive squatter elements (e.g people with severe
| mental illness or substance abuse problems,though meth is a
| problem) because it is remote, there are no services, and
| it is dangerously hot during the summer time. Thus, it's
| pretty hard to live there without at least a modest RV and
| some planning, which has made it a bit more inviting and
| interesting than the usual homeless encampment.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_City,_California
| Fricken wrote:
| For the same reasons people may enjoy playing Fallout 4.
| dehrmann wrote:
| _Historically_ , it was a pretty popular vacation
| destination.
|
| > In the 1950s and into the 1960s, the communities expanded
| as the area's reputation as a resort destination and sport
| fishery grew.[18] Hotels and yacht clubs were built on the
| shore along with homes and schools.[19] Resorts in
| communities like Bombay Beach hosted entertainers such as
| Frank Sinatra, The Beach Boys and Bing Crosby.[20] Yacht
| clubs held parties at night and golf courses provided
| recreation.[19] Many people came for boating activities
| such as water skiing and fishing as stocked fish
| proliferated.[21] Lakeshore communities grew as vacation
| homes were built.[15] More than 1.5 million visitors
| visited annually at the peak.[22]
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salton_Sea#Agriculture,_touri
| s...
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Everyone else uses it as a cautionary tale...except your dog!
| rantwasp wrote:
| except the dog. truly our best friend. pretended to like even
| that awful place. :)
| lanstin wrote:
| She is a very sweet dog tho not very good signal for will
| humans like something.
| RileyJames wrote:
| Good work dad. One day they will appreciate it more.
|
| You should have added slab city to the itinerary.
|
| I drove around the Salton Sea, but didn't know the history.
| Every little "town" around it was dead (although there were
| signs of restoration in progress). It's an amazing American
| post-apocalypse experience, mad max in America style.
| edoceo wrote:
| These are my favourite dates: https://www.chinaranch.com/
|
| In Tecopa (sorta) - right next to Death Valley.
| rcpt wrote:
| Wow that font
| martinpw wrote:
| One thing to note - the headline of the article itself is
| incorrect. It says "GM Will Suck Lithium From the Salton Sea" In
| fact the lithium is being extracted from brine thousands of feet
| below the Salton Sea, as is stated in the article itself. Also GM
| is not doing the work, they signed an agreement with another
| company that is actually doing it. HN reworded headline is
| better.
| manquer wrote:
| On paper these projects are proposing to improve the salinity
| of the water in the sea, as the plan is to release the treated
| brine/water to the lake.
| mikeiz404 wrote:
| This podcast episode, "The white gold rush" by The Slow Newscast,
| goes into depth on the recent history of the lake and the
| community of the Salton Sea -- https://overcast.fm/+oXTWZbQac
| thadk wrote:
| This Drainage Basin map (1943) seems to explain the salt and
| alkaline lakes around the world, like Salton Sea in CA, but I'd
| love to know more.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/oldmaps/comments/d0ilnn/world_drain...
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