[HN Gopher] Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of j... ___________________________________________________________________ Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists Author : tosh Score : 403 points Date : 2021-07-18 16:14 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com) | bambax wrote: | > _The investigation by the Guardian and 16 other media | organisations suggests widespread and continuing abuse of NSO's | hacking spyware, Pegasus, which the company insists is only | intended for use against criminals and terrorists._ (from the | Guardian inquiry about the same topic). | | Every time we allow special laws or special tools to fight | "terrorism" or "child abuse" or other evils that get people | worked up, they end up being used against the people in general. | Every time. Why are we even surprised. | darig wrote: | Every time someone tries to exterminate the culture/hybrid | religious group of people generally responsible for such acts, | someone cries hitler. | | Do you want to fix the problem or not? What is "evil"? Are you | prepared to stop being a hypocrite when you explore the | question to its natural conclusion? | briefcomment wrote: | It might hard to accept this, but "public health" is now a part | of the surveillance justification tool kit too. When it's | impossible to argue against measures taken in defense of public | health without seeming selfish, why wouldn't it be? | lvs wrote: | Not where I live. Is your request simply not to be seen as | selfish while making a selfish argument? | krisoft wrote: | How do I allow laws? Or rather what does it mean to not "allow" | a law? | | You are right. Terrorism and cp are commonly used excuses to | enable even more surveillance. | | When you talk about "allowing laws" it makes it sound as if we | somehow got conned into letting them have these laws. In | reality powerfull people want these tools. Powerfull people get | these tools. Where does the allowing happen exactly? | | And don't tell me that all would be well if only we would vote | for the other guy. | josephcsible wrote: | > what does it mean to not "allow" a law? | | Voting against any politicians who contribute to its passing, | even if they're from your preferred political party. | benlivengood wrote: | Vote for approval voting, ranked choice, or even instant | runoff at every level of government so that voting against | an incumbent at least has a viable candidate. | BuyMyBitcoins wrote: | I worry that making voting more complicated and giving | people more candidates to vote for might actually | backfire. | | We already see this in American primary elections where | the incumbent runs against a half dozen or more | "nobodies" and seems to win on name recognition and vote | splitting alone. | playguardin wrote: | Ah yes! The old democracy will fix it argument. | BuyMyBitcoins wrote: | >" When you talk about "allowing laws" it makes it sound as | if we somehow got conned into letting them have these laws." | | This is a very Machiavellian and realpolitik take, so please | keep that in mind. People in a democracy "allow" laws | whenever they just continue to live normally. Sure, you can | protest with signs and vote differently in the next election, | but we know that's not particularly effective at shaking the | status quo. | | What does "not allowing" a law look like? Civil disobedience, | defiance, harassing politicians, and trying to force change. | In essence, it's average people and activists using _every | tool_ at their disposal to force the politicians to act | differently. We saw plenty of this in 2020. | bambax wrote: | Yes the wording is imperfect. I meant "accept", as in, not | protest until they are repealed. Voting is useless as all | main political parties typically agree on this. | pmoriarty wrote: | I hate to say it, but if what you're communicating could risk | your life or that of someone else you might want to avoid using | computers to communicate it altogether. | | Old-school techniques such as physically smuggling microdots[1] | seem much safer than relying on any computer technology, which | can always be hacked. | | [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdot | dogorman wrote: | If these hacking firms succeed in chasing journalists off | digital communication, I think the totalitarian regimes they | serve will consider that "a win." | pmoriarty wrote: | It's arguably an even bigger "win" for them if they kill off | or imprison those journalists. | buran77 wrote: | Old-school techniques were hard to pull off even by trained | spies with a proper (and vast) support network, let alone | by journalists and John Rando who have never met. If you're | on a watch list that gets your phone flagged for malware | then it's not a stretch to assume that you can also be | physically watched. And meeting in person with journalists | or sources while being under surveillance is like painting | a target on your back. | | And that's before considering that a journalist would never | have a realistic chance to meet potential sources under | repressive regimes on the other side of the world, | certainly not a useful number. | | Computers and encryption made this kind of covert | communication far more accessible to the laymen. Anything | that sets that back just deters people from even trying and | this is exactly the chilling effect those oppressive | regimes are looking for. | pmoriarty wrote: | _" If you're on a watch list that gets your phone flagged | for malware then it's not a stretch to assume that you | can also be physically watched."_ | | The difference is you need way more resources and funds | to physically watch and search a lot of people than to | spy on their computer communications or hack in to their | phones/laptops. | | Mass computer surveillance is practical, easy, and | affordable.. mass physical surveillance is much harder, | much more expensive, and impractical to do effectively on | large populations. | buran77 wrote: | > you need way more resources and funds to physically | watch and search a lot of people [...] Mass computer | surveillance is practical, easy, and affordable | | You're right but old-school methods make everything | impractical, hard, expensive, and far riskier for both | the dissident who already has enough reasons to just stay | quiet, and also for the journalist. They set a _very_ | high bar for succeeding. You 're asking a regular person | to take the end-to-end role of a Cold War spy _and_ their | source. And this when having access to sensitive info, | suspicious purchases like photographic equipment and | chemicals, trips abroad, or any attempt to contact a | journalist would individually be enough to put someone on | a watch list. There are only so many ways to get in | contact with a journalist and set up meetings that don 't | involve any electronic communication. | | The state can take a lot more than the individual. So the | question is how many people who have sensitive | information to share could or would go that route in face | of this dramatically mounting pressure? Anything that | raises that bar for doing it is a win for the oppressive | regime because it makes surveillance that much easier. | dogorman wrote: | They're doing that too... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ass | assination_of_Jamal_Khashog... | | These firms are helping authoritarian regimes kill and | imprison journalists. The journalists who survive by being | paranoid will be made less effective by having to use less | effective methods of communication, which likely aren't | understood by the people journalists talk to | (whistleblowers, witnesses, etc.) | dillondoyle wrote: | The articles show that his wife (or whoever was his | partner idk status) was hacked around the time of his | murder. | | Also reports Mexican journalist was hacked, then executed | right after at an obscure location. Heavily implies GPS | tracking was used for the hit. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | I think if you sell an exploit and it's used in a crime you | should be held accountable as if you sold a weapon to an enemy. | slg wrote: | Would you want people who develop encryption algorithms held | accountable if those algorithms are used to hide illegal | activities? | DangitBobby wrote: | We can pick and choose. | jazzyjackson wrote: | Like comparing a gun safe to a gun | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | No | slg wrote: | How is it different? They are tools that can be used for | both legal and illegal means. If you put legal | responsibility on one toolmaker to ensure their tools are | not used in an illegal fashion, why wouldn't you do the | same for other toolmakers? | zatertip wrote: | Isn't that obvious? | | An exploit is to encryption as a sword is to a shield. | | We don't regulate shields. | Talanes wrote: | We do regulate body armor though. | MajorBee wrote: | I looked into this because I was intrigued, turns out | convicted felons in the good ol' United States are not | allowed to purchase/wear/own body armor [1] (barring | explicit exceptions). | | I wonder what the rationale behind this federal law is. | Does wearing/purchasing armor indicate that you, | convicted felon, are simply up to no good once again? Is | it one of those "you don't need ~~privacy~~ armor if you | don't have anything to hide" things? | | [1] https://www.shotstop.net/resources-1/2020/9/8/is-it- | legal-to... | slg wrote: | A shield can inflict damage just like a sword can. | Encryption hiding the details of a murder plot can be | just as crucial as an exploit that reveals a murder | target's location. | ohgodplsno wrote: | And you will be jailed should you murder someone with a | shield. But since the primary purpose of a shield is | defense, it's assumed you will not use it as a blunt | weapon. Buying a two handed longsword will definitely get | you on some list, however. | | Stop trying to find gotchas. Weapons (read: items whose | primary goals are to inflict damage, maim, kill, injure, | destroy) are and should be regulated. | slg wrote: | The point of OP's original comment is that it isn't | enough for the seller to assume that the customers will | use the product in a legal manner. Once you start holding | the seller legally liable for use of their product, the | primary purpose of that product becomes irrelevant. All | possible uses must now be considered when selling a | product. | IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: | Journalism is already a profession running on fumes (literally, | in the past. More metaphorically, today). It's just not | feasible to do without technology. | | People sometimes seem to imagine some world inhibited by | security-conscious professions that is more akin to a slick | movie than real life. Witness the common believe that, say, | blocking websites at DNS levels has zero impact on crime | because it's easy to circumvent. | | Real-life criminals, journalists, or activists prefer Telegram | over code tattooed on a messenger's scalp for the same reason | we all do: hair grows too slow and nobody is getting on | international flights right now. I know it's fun to imagine all | these activities involving "threat actors" and steganographic | key exchanges via Pornhub (Alex and Bob getting on?). But that | road leads to busywork that doesn't get any corrupt | politician's name on that white page. | throwaway984393 wrote: | Does Israel have an entire start-up sector dedicated to spyware | or something? I feel like I'm reading about these all the time? | JumpCrisscross wrote: | Are there U.S. laws NSO Group has violated? If not, how would | laws define the prohibited activity? | | We're at the point of, at the very least, barring NSO Group, its | employees and its investors from travelling to the U.S., using | our financial system or keeping assets here. (Which would | indirectly bar our police departments and agencies from | contracting with them.) | | Financing terrorism is a crime. Aiding and abetting journalistic | suppression should be in a similar, albeit lower severity, | category. | Dah00n wrote: | >We're at the point of, at the very least, barring NSO Group | | I haven't followed the US response to the behaviour of NSO | Group but _if_ things like you mention have already been done I | very much doubt it isn 't a smokescreen. The US is arguably the | biggest user and customer to these kinds of services. | | >Financing terrorism is a crime | | Yes but if you have the power to define what is and what isn't | terrorism (or journalistic suppression) then a law is useless. | Fixing this is beyond the reach of a representative democracy | and the likes. It needs a full-on direct democracy and enough | citizens that are against it _or_ a Dictatorship with a | dictator that is against it. Otherwise any law pretending to be | against stuff like this are at best a smokescreen or at worst a | plot to keep it for those in power but out of reach of anyone | else. | dillondoyle wrote: | In at least one of the articles I've read so far they mention | an American citizen journalist living in the UK whose phone was | hacked. He was reporting on IMDB and looks like UAE corruption | was why he got hacked. | | So perhaps that's a way in? If not law in civil court? pardon | my lack of legal jargon/knowledge | | "Also listed in the leaked records is a UK phone number | belonging to the American investigative journalist Bradley | Hope, who lives in London. At the time of his selection he was | an employee at the Wall Street Journal." | | https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/ft-editor-roul... | penguin_booze wrote: | Do we know how this software is able to do something that others | can't; and be very successful, especially being invisible while | at it? | cf100clunk wrote: | Earlier post on this story from a different consortium member: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874027 | pope_meat wrote: | That's why I keep it simple. I run things out of a closet with an | air gaped computer, a single printer, and a gun...in case the | printer starts acting suspicious. | drummer wrote: | > in case the printer starts acting suspicious. | | These days that is a very real possibility if you run Windows. | toyg wrote: | _> a single printer_ | | You've already lost, then. Printers' output can be uniquely | identified. | | Nothing should ever be in dead-tree format. If you need to | carry something that does not need electricity to display text, | use eInk. Or build your own printer. | fma wrote: | So - I guess everyone should use WeChat? Because I'm sure the | Chinese government wouldn't put up with Israeli software being | able to capture that data. | jokoon wrote: | I'm not even surprised. | | Snowden needs to repeat and remind people, over and over, that | people should just not trust their electronics if they are doing | sensitive work that somebody powerful elsewhere (government or a | rich company) might not like. | | I'm also curious how whatsapp/facebook will respond to those | vulns. Hard to really trust them at all, it's really easy to | imagine a conspiracy theory when intelligence agency negotiate | inserting backdoors into popular software. | | I'm really discouraged from working in computer security, it | really looks like a shady industry. | sharikone wrote: | For politicians in democracies citizens are potential voters, | foreigners don't matter. | | It's still arguably better than dictatorships, where your | citizens don't matter either, as long as you have a good police | system. | | We act surprised when we notice such things but we shouldn't be, | it is a mistake to apply the same standards that we, as the lucky | citizens of "free countries" enjoy, to any other system of power. | | From a less cynical point of view, as an Israeli, I am not happy | at all to see this kind of export products from my country. It is | in great part because of the conflict. Te SIGINT units are huge | and among the people who graduate from the army with this kind of | knowledge you will certainly find many who will turn a blind eye | to ethics for a huge paycheck. Not to mention that the research | itself that the defense apparatus needs attracts capitals from | other countries that will buy some of it and use it for | unorthodox means. I wish we exported less of these things, | especially to autocratic countries. I agree it's horrible. | hashbig wrote: | > in democracies citizens are potential voters, foreigners | don't matter | | Not long ago, what determined whether you "mattered" or not was | your religion and belief. We now replaced it with a state | issued piece of paper and convinced ourselves that this is | progress. | golemiprague wrote: | I don't think it is the job of Israel to decide who is going to | use it and how. Do we even know what countries are using it | for? in most cases it is unknown. I find it a bit disingenuous | that people who got no problem trading with countries like | China suddenly find one case where some other country misused | eavesdropping and manage to slap "Israel" in the headline as if | it is their responsibility and they are the main issue here. | tosh wrote: | Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/revealed- | leak-... | [deleted] | halotrope wrote: | It would be really nice if I could own my phone to the point | where I could install an outgoing firewall or harden the os to my | abilities instead of blind trust into the diligent but not | infallible vendor. | colordrops wrote: | https://grapheneos.org/ | c7DJTLrn wrote: | Cat and mouse game. The foundations of computing must be | completely reworked if we are to ever have any real security. | Zigurd wrote: | You have touched on the real problem: Most of our digital | devices have way too many attack surfaces. | | If you can secure a movie from being copied by the owner of | the device showing the movie, you can hide spyware on that | device. That's OK for a usb gizmo you plug into your TV, | but why would supposedly security minded enterprises accept | that in their computers? | halotrope wrote: | Yes but no. Quite frankly I love iOS and my apps and the | camera etc. The big disappointment is really that there is no | power user mode for the rest of us. The computer/phone is | really an extension of the mind at this point and we gave up | control so easily. It is as if we let corporations lock down | our pleasure center. | Krasnol wrote: | You're a good example though for why it works so well. | You're not even ready to sacrifice a bit (that bit being | still disputable) to gain more control over your phone by | switching the vendor. Meanwhile most people wouldn't even | get your first desire. We're and have lost already. | andyxor wrote: | WaPo? if this is true there must be a better source, otherwise | fake news | shever73 wrote: | I'm currently reading Nicole Pelroth's book "This Is How They | Tell Me The World Ends", which has a big section on the NSO Group | and the Pegasus Project. If even part of what she uncovered is | true, then digital privacy is effectively non-existent. | ackbar03 wrote: | Aren't these private hacking companies breaking the law though? | Does anyone know why no one has sued them or arrested them or | something? From what I understand in most cases, any attempts to | reverse engineer or exploit any system is against terms of | service with the offender held liable. Some teenager who comes up | with a game hack can be slapped with a massive fine, but these | hacking companies aren't even breaking the law? How does that | work? | | Cause I think I'm in the wrong game | squarefoot wrote: | When you get a government contract in this and similar fields, | it usually comes with protection against most laws, no matter | which ones are broken and where (see "Blackwater"). | notdang wrote: | Why would anyone sue or arrest them? They develop the software, | they do not break into the phones of journalists. | | The article says that the governmental agencies are breaking | into the phone. These hacking companies just license their | software to these governmental agencies. | sudosysgen wrote: | Try to sell ransomware programs and sell support contracts | and then see what happens. | | It is illegal to provide assistance in the commitance of a | crime even if you're not the one that pulls the trigger. | JumpCrisscross wrote: | > _Does anyone know why no one has sued them or arrested them | or something?_ | | Facebook is suing NSO Group and winning, at least on procedural | grounds [1]. | | [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-nso-cyber- | idUSKB... | sudosysgen wrote: | Rule of law is a joke. If you work for your government and | don't anger the politicians you can workout sweetheart deals | that will shield you from the law completely, unless you fall | out of political favour. | | But they are breaking the law. Same as many security agencies. | It just doesn't matter. | amelius wrote: | What if someone with a hacked phone crosses borders and | enters e.g. the US. Would the Israeli spyware company who | hacked the phone be liable now? | sudosysgen wrote: | In theory it should be, in reality good luck getting any | damages or penalties. | dogorman wrote: | > _Aren 't these private hacking companies breaking the law | though?_ | | Like Russia, Israel doesn't seem to give a damn when criminal | enterprises operating in their borders victimize people in | other countries. This shit has been going on for years: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Download_Valley | dogma1138 wrote: | Gamma Group, Hacking Team and a plethora of other European | companies were/are in the same business. | dogorman wrote: | I brought up Russia to make the point that Israel isn't the | only country that operates like this. But they _are_ one of | the countries that does and their reputation for it spans | decades. | dogma1138 wrote: | Operate like what? | dogorman wrote: | > _" doesn't seem to give a damn when criminal | enterprises operating in their borders victimize people | in other countries."_ | markus_zhang wrote: | Those guys don't care about laws. | dogma1138 wrote: | Not anymore than a defense contractor is breaking the law. | | Their sells are export controlled in a similar manner that arms | sales are. | Ygg2 wrote: | It's easier to go against a Chiuaua, than a dire wolf. | | Same with suits. | ruined wrote: | nso group is based in israel. suing them for activities | directed by the israeli state is not likely to be effective. | | it would be like trying to sue a ransomware group in russia, or | a phone company in america. | azernik wrote: | In this case it's not directed by the Israeli state; the | Israeli state just doesn't really care, and doesn't want to | interfere with the post-army job prospects of intelligence | personnel. | mahkeiro wrote: | No but at least try to make sure that people working for them | are banned from the international security community. They | are clearly not working for the good guys (specifically here | French journalist under surveillance of Morocco spies) | mromanuk wrote: | When the customer are certain government agencies, there is the | law and the law. | smashah wrote: | The people who work in these companies should be absolutely | shunned and black listed from laundering their past by taking up | a role at any major tech firm. | | The people who work at NSO and companies like this are a stain on | the whole tech industry and are outcasted by their own IOF peers | for being greedy and morally-lacking. | | Absolutely disgusting to think your hands are clean while you | make tools that directly empower dictators and keep whole regions | of people subjugated. | fortran77 wrote: | There may be another side to this. From NSO's website: | | > NSO Group licenses its products only to government intelligence | and law enforcement agencies for the sole purpose of preventing | and investigating terror and serious crime. Our vetting process | goes beyond legal and regulatory requirements to ensure the | lawful use of our technology as designed. | | Also, the company's owner, Novalpina, is not Israeli, though the | founders and engineers of this particular surveillance product | are in Israel. | 71a54xd wrote: | This is problematic and wrong, however, in today's climate I | think the term "activist" is applied far too liberally. At times, | so much that clear enemies of the state could also claim to be | "activists". Another important distinction is that for | journalists to be truly objective, most of the time that means | they can't simultaneously be active as "activists". | | Hard to think anyone is surprised that top-tier pay-to-play | malware is being promulgated by Israeli firms... | bjourne wrote: | I know it's not a foolproof solution but perhaps there should be | a greater focus on ethics in Computer Science curricula? The | Israeli developers who wrote this software may not even have been | exposed to the moral and ethical questions writing such software | ought to raise. Perhaps there should be trade associations for | developers that calls out software companies that writes immoral | software? | | With great power comes great responsibility, and if you knowingly | use your great power to write this kind of software you are a | terrible person, in my opinion. | heliodor wrote: | People's ethics are all over the spectrum regardless of career | path. The root problem is that we need to worry about the | ethics of our politicians. Overall, they seem like a pretty bad | bunch! | saagarjha wrote: | Politicians aren't the ones writing spyware, though. | antonzabirko wrote: | Lol. Sure dude, it's the programmers who are the bad guys, not | the people funding the israel/palestine war or in this case the | owners of the company who decide to make software that helps | assasinate people. | bjourne wrote: | The whole Israeli state is morally bankrupt, but that doesn't | mean that Israeli software developers doesn't have any | responsibility themselves. Everyone is responsible for their | own actions and should at least try to act ethically. | | I can't say I know where the line is. For example, would it | be unethical to work for Facebook? I don't know and I don't | think so. Working for an online casino? In my opinion yes, | but others would disagree. Writing software that is used by | authorities to hack activists cell phones? Absolutely! It's | so far beyond the pale that I can't fathom how anyone could | defend it. | detaro wrote: | Where is parent saying that these other people are not also | bad guys? | antonzabirko wrote: | It doesn't matter. You need to prioritize the issues you | discuss by their impact: in this case, Israeli government | oversight of these companies. It's dishonest to misdirect | away from the real ethical issue which is what the parent | is doing. He doesn't have to say anything for me to point | out that it's moving the focus away from the real problem. | tomjen3 wrote: | Ethics that is not enforced is a joke. You only need one guy | not to give a fuck. | zild3d wrote: | > The Israeli developers who wrote this software may not even | have been exposed to the moral and ethical questions writing | such software ought to raise | | Of course they have been exposed to ethical questions for | writing the software. If you know Israel well, and the famed | Unit 8200 [0], the initial creation of this type of software is | definitely built with morals in mind - saving lives is the | entire impetus. | | Lots of security software out of Israel (see CheckPoint, a now | public company) is first born out of the IDF with the goal of | fighting terrorism and criminals. I don't see an ethics class | being the answer here, as this type of cyber & security | software has certainly saved lives. The issue is what happens | after this software is developed, with seemingly justified | reason to exist, and now in the hands of a business growing | around it. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_8200 | | [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/revealed- | leak-... | | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_Point | bjourne wrote: | I meant actual ethics - not Israeli hasbara (propaganda). | Clearly, the perspective that the Israeli Defense Forces is | the bravest and most moral army in the world and that | everyone who resists the occupation are evil terrorists is | not foreign to them! I meant real ethical questions. Do I | have a responsibility if what I create is used for evil? Is | "just following orders" a valid defense? Is it right to spy | on people who haven't committed any crime? Is the life of a | civilian on the enemy side worth less than the life of a | civilian on my side? | | I'm a software developer so my life is all about identifying | and fixing bugs. And it is a "bug" and a big problem that | developers are willing to write software to hack journalists' | and activists' cell phones. We should fix this bug. More | ethics education? Shunning developers writing phone hacking | software? I don't know what the solution is. | jazzyjackson wrote: | Has an ethics class ever stopped someone from accepting a 6 | figure salary? | saagarjha wrote: | Yes. | jonas21 wrote: | It's also possible that the developers who wrote this software | are very aware of the ethical questions surrounding it and have | decided that the benefits to society in combatting crime and | terrorism outweigh the harms from misuse of the technology. | While I don't personally agree, I can see how someone could | hold such an opinion. | | One of the things you'll learn in an ethics class is that | ethical values are heavily influenced by culture and | circumstance, and there are vast differences in what different | groups of people believe is ethical and not. | dogma1138 wrote: | How are they different to the Italian developers that worked on | Da Vinci/Galileo or the British and German developers that | worked on FinFisher? | | Plenty of people work on products that may be immoral in some | application or frame of reference. | | Developing technologies that facilitate the predatory practices | for social media networks, ad targeting, gaming/gambling and | plenty of other shit. | | And this goes beyond tech I don't think that the 40 something | machinist that works at Glock in Austria or the 23 year old EE | engineer that works on imagines sensors for BAE in the UK some | loses sleep at night because a handgun or some guided bomb | somewhere killed someone. | Magodo wrote: | Apologies for commenting before reading the article. But I'm | curious what the sales process is for spyware. I understand the | underground groups do all their stuff anonymously, but what sales | ops do legitimate companies like NSO Group practice? Do they have | sales targets/quotas? Do they vet their clients? What channels do | they sell through? | thefounder wrote: | Usually for profit companies are looking to boost profits and | work near the legal limit if that means bigger returns. | | This happens in finance, tech, food, pharma and pretty much all | the industries that have a "legal" risk due regulation. | | If breaking the law means a fine that sometimes is less than | the profit then you can imagine that the incentive is to break | the law. | dogma1138 wrote: | Similar channels as any other arms manufacturer or defense | contractor, as far as Israel goes they are regulated in the | same manner by the same agency DECA. | | They likely do not sell to anyone or for any reason that does | not contribute to Israel's foreign policy in some way or | another. | SpywareThrow wrote: | First Hollywood, then media, then computers, now this. | | Not surprised in the least. | csmpltn wrote: | @dang? | saagarjha wrote: | Just flag the post or email hn@ycombinator.com | teslaberry wrote: | there are no rules in love and war and hacking. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-07-18 23:00 UTC)