[HN Gopher] Intel to build Qualcomm chips, aims to catch foundry... ___________________________________________________________________ Intel to build Qualcomm chips, aims to catch foundry rivals by 2025 Author : mepian Score : 70 points Date : 2021-07-26 21:33 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com) | mdasen wrote: | I'd be more interested in hearing about the terms of the Qualcomm | deal. Is Qualcomm putting its eggs in the Intel basket for 2025 | or has Intel reached an agreement with Qualcomm that Qualcomm | will buy from them if it fits Qualcomm's needs and it's ready in | time? | | If the agreement is "Qualcomm will send _some_ of its business | Intel 's way," that isn't a huge vote of confidence. Heck, are we | talking about Qualcomm's Snapdragon 8xx series or just some | Qualcomm chips like the ones they put in WiFi routers? Or their | low-end Snapdragon 4xx series? | | The article is kinda spinning it as "Intel will be making the | Qualcomm chips going into everyone's phones," but it could be | more "Qualcomm is going to have Intel manufacture its low-end | stuff which is always behind tech-wise and Intel is giving them a | big discount because Intel needs a win." | | > In the chip world where smaller is better, Intel previously | used names that alluded to the size of features in "nanometers". | But over time the names used by chipmakers became arbitrary | marking terms... This, he said, gave the mistaken impression that | Intel was less competitive. | | They are definitely less competitive at this point. Nanometers | might not be the right measurement, but one can measure | transistor density. Maybe that would make more sense? | | Even if "Intel 7" (10nm Enhanced SuperFin) is equivalent to | TSMC's 7nm, we saw TSMC's 7nm back in 2018. I have a TSMC 5nm in | my pocket. I guess if Intel can keep to its road map, it will | catch up. If "Intel 4" comes out with products in early 2023, it | won't be far behind TSMC's 3nm process (which will likely debut | in the 2022 iPhone). | | Of course, we'll have to see how well these Intel chips perform. | We should be able to benchmark Intel 7 processors with Alder Lake | processors landing later this year. Will these stand up well | against AMD's 7nm Zen 2/3? Will they stand up against AMD's | upcoming 5nm Zen 4? I guess we'll be able to test Intel's chips | against what AMD has been shipping and see how well Intel 7 | stands up against both 7nm and 5nm processes. | stefan_ wrote: | No one would make WiFi router chips or even low-end smartphone | processors on these processes. | klelatti wrote: | Wasn't Qualcomm announced as a 20A customer? | nightowl_games wrote: | They'll do it too. They'll catch up, because it's in the US | Government's interest for them to catch up. Buy Intel Stock. | tim_sw wrote: | How can you be sure that it's Intel and not other players or a | consortium? | wmf wrote: | If you want a "truly American" company (not TSMC or Samsung), | Intel is the only option. The question is whether that's | important or not. | dragontamer wrote: | IBM is made at GloFo, which is both an American chip | designer with an American fabricator. | | But GloFo is falling behind for sure. I don't think POWER10 | will be made at GloFo. | RC_ITR wrote: | Boy do I have news for you: | https://www.mubadala.com/en/what-we- | do/semiconductors/global.... | colinmhayes wrote: | Intel is trying to buy gf | nicoburns wrote: | Personally, I really hope we keep all 3 of these companies | (and maybe gain a 4th competitor in the form of SMIC) for | as long as possible. Having a variety of companies | producing chips is important both for competition and | supply chain resilience reasons. | btown wrote: | I wouldn't go so far as to say "buy Intel stock" because | institutional investors have likely already adjusted to the | announcement and it's likely priced in. | | That said, I think government encouragement is a critical piece | of the puzzle and should derisk this operation. The recent | supply shocks to the computer industry, when component prices | and lead times shot up _independent_ of any geopolitical | conflicts (other than COVID), must have been a wake-up call to | many that the US 's relative lack of foundry capabilities has | real strategic implications. | aj7 wrote: | You first. | xwdv wrote: | Interests can change in a minute, and without warning. | arcanus wrote: | Do you believe the US government is willing to commit the | resources necessary for Intel to catch up? | | Intel's R+D spending (13 billion U.S. dollars) is already | larger than the entire annual NSF budget (10 billion). | AtlasBarfed wrote: | I saw headlines about 52 billion dollars for domestic | semiconductor expansion going through Congress. Did that | happen? | totalZero wrote: | It's an existential question. Right now the US economy is | entirely dependent upon Taiwanese semiconductor fabrication. | This isn't a glaring problem yet, because China is also | dependent upon the same supply chain, giving rise to a mutual | incentive not to rock the boat too hard. However, China has | dedicated substantial resources to building its own fab | infrastructure since well before the pandemic [0], with the | goal of establishing a parallel ecosystem that circumvents | the US-controlled supply chain [1]. If the US does not follow | suit, its dependence upon Taiwan becomes a massive liability. | | How much did we spend on the Iraq War, despite our own | country being a major producer of oil and gas? Our economic | incentive to entangle ourselves in Taiwan is even greater, | but the stakes of military confrontation with China would be | more dangerous. How much would you pay to avert such a | conflict -- or worse, to avert the consequences of | acquiescing to China's expansionism? | | I think $200 billion is a cheap price tag for a path forward | that involves neither warfare nor perpetual paranoia about | every perturbation in the South China Sea. Taiwan established | itself as a semiconductor powerhouse largely because its | government backed TSMC. South Korea's government bends over | backwards for Samsung, which makes up about a fifth of their | GDP. The way forward for the US may be similar in mentality: | throw the government behind the industry. US fabs need | resilient and high-quality infrastructure for power, water, | and logistics. We can use the collimated power and authority | of the government to yield a vastly more effective long-term | solution than piecemeal tax credits on lithography scanners. | | [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/04/china-ramps-up-own- | semicondu... | | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU2rNB34yY4 | elzbardico wrote: | In the great scheme of military spending things, 10 billions | is small change. | lettergram wrote: | I believe the US military would easily be willing to plow | $10B. | | Now, does that mean intel will actually be effective? I have | my doubts, baring some sort of shotgun approach where | multiple experimental fabs are done simultaneously. | AtlasBarfed wrote: | I have been ragging Intel for a long time since the | NetBurst debacle, but it's still a massive company with the | x86 cash cow for at least another half-decade until AMD | closes a bit of a gap. | | They have the resources and history to recover. I have | heard references to massive managerial layer problems and | treating contractors like crap and the brain drain of the | old guard, but those aren't intractable problems. | | Intel has responded in the past. AMD looked completely dead | in the Hector Ruiz waning days, and look at them now. | Empower some good engineers and watch what happens. | aj7 wrote: | Are the maroon notebooks gone yet? | nicoburns wrote: | I'm not sure how much difference that would make. Intel | already has $20B in cash reserves and is still making large | profits (in the billions of dollars). Their problems have | nothing to do with lack money. | klelatti wrote: | Can anyone explain what evidence there is that Intel will be able | to deliver all this? | | Not taking a view just interested in how to assess the | credibility of the roadmap. | zionic wrote: | For the curious: | | https://www.tweaktown.com/news/50551/intel-confirms-10nm-pro... | tablespoon wrote: | Per the OP, it sounds like they're taking more | conservative/incremental steps now, and their previous fault | was that they were too ambitious and tried to do too much at | once. | | My understanding is Intel's rivals also took a more incremental | development process, which basically allowed them to capitalize | on Intel's missteps. | bstar77 wrote: | "But David Kanter, an analyst with Real World Technologies, | said Intel is being more cautious than in the past. The years | of delays resulted in part from the "hubris" of tackling | multiple technical problems in a single generation of | technology." | | That's some serious spin there. The chatter has been that | Intel has had poor focus, poor working conditions, poor | investments, poor communication within the company and a | plethora of hubris. They need a culture overhaul and that | seems to be what's happening. The jury is out to where they | take this. My bet would be on all of their competitors. | klelatti wrote: | Having watched the Webcast it didn't sound that conservative! | | 7,4,3,20A in 4 years. | websg-x wrote: | 7 is half node, 4 full node, 3 half, 20A full node again. | Moore's law is doubling of transistors density every 2 | years, so the roadmap is indeed conservative. | nicoburns wrote: | The fact that they've replaced their CEO with a highly- | respected (within the company) former engineer and they've been | rehiring a lot of other veteran former employees who were | involved in many of their historical successes is certainly a | good sign. | | It's still a tall order, but my reading is that they seem to be | doing all the right things. And they certainly aren't short of | cash to invest with. | arcanus wrote: | > rehiring a lot of other veteran former employees who were | involved in many of their historical successes is certainly a | good sign | | They certainly are trying to get the band back together. I | see little reason this means they can turn around a huge | beast. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-07-26 23:00 UTC)