[HN Gopher] Craig Murray will surrender himself for prison ___________________________________________________________________ Craig Murray will surrender himself for prison Author : jjgreen Score : 285 points Date : 2021-07-30 12:00 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (thedissenter.org) (TXT) w3m dump (thedissenter.org) | mandmandam wrote: | This isn't just brazenly corrupt retribution; it's also brazen | witness tampering. | billytetrud wrote: | And people wonder why Snowden didn't turn himself in | tablespoon wrote: | > And people wonder why Snowden didn't turn himself in | | Because he literally confessed to breaking a number of very | serious laws? | | Literally his only hopes of escaping a conviction are 1) a | prosecutor refusing to charge him (snowball's chance in hell), | 2) a pardon, 3) some kind jury nullification. Whatever you | think about the morality of his actions, what he did was | indisputably illegal. "I thought I was doing the right thing, | and many people agree," is not an actual legal defense. | | And honestly, I think if Snowden had turned himself in, it | would have made him _more_ admirable and brave, and place his | actions clearly in the "civil disobedience" category. | billytetrud wrote: | What Snowden did was herioc and needed to happen. The fact | that he had to break awful oppressive laws to do it is an | indictment of the laws, not Snowden. | andrewaylett wrote: | In a democracy, any laws preventing release of government | secrets really should come with a public interest defence. | tablespoon wrote: | > What Snowden did was herioc and needed to happen. The | fact that he had to break awful oppressive laws to do it is | an indictment of the laws, not Snowden. | | The laws he broke weren't awful and oppressive, it's just | that "legal" and "moral" are categories that will never | completely align. | matthewmacleod wrote: | I've often been surprised to see enthusiastic admiration for | Craig Murray in this forum in particular. He's an outright raving | conspiracy theorist, in this case painfully obviously sneaking | out information about witnesses in a rape trial in part because | of his belief that the trial was part of a massive state | conspiracy. | | His commentary on the Assange trial was so overwhelmingly and | obviously biased that it was impossible to derive any useful | objective information, so it was very strange to see him so | heavily promoted. | | It just seems like it would be possible you might object to the | treatment of Assange--or be concerned about the trial's effect on | free speech--without weirdly uncritical promotion of such an | unreliable and unsympathetic narrator. At least it would be wise | to treat anything he says with extreme skepticism. | probably_wrong wrote: | > _His commentary on the Assange trial was so overwhelmingly | and obviously biased that it was impossible to derive any | useful objective information_ | | I don't know anything about his other works, but AFAIK he was | the only one reporting what was going on in detail during | Assange's trial. I respect him for that. | | I read criticism similar to yours before, but I can't shake a | simple question: if there are better reporters out there, where | were they during the trial? | [deleted] | gadders wrote: | >> sneaking out information about witnesses in a rape trial | | Citation needed. Did he "sneak" out any more information than | was in newspapers? | | And given how Nicola Sturgeon lied to parliament etc, there is | decent evidence it was an SNP (not the state even though the | SNP thinks they are the state) conspiracy. | matthewmacleod wrote: | > Citation needed. Did he "sneak" out any more information | than was in newspapers? | | Yes. Feel free to read the court's judgment for more | information. | | > And given how Nicola Sturgeon lied to parliament etc, there | is decent evidence it was an SNP (not the state even though | the SNP thinks they are the state) conspiracy. | | I think it's safe to say that this statement demonstrates you | are not interested in any good-faith discussion on this | matter. | seanhunter wrote: | This case literally is the citation. He was found to have | done this, which is why he will go to jail. | imwillofficial wrote: | > outright raving conspiracy theorist | | I guess in this instance "They" were really out to get Him, eh? | imwillofficial wrote: | > obviously biased that it was impossible to derive any useful | objective information | | You mean to tell me He was obvious on His position? He didn't | pretend to be objective, an impossible effort for any human? | I'm shocked, shocked I tell you! | | My friend, that's a feature, not a bug. Journalistic | objectivity is a meme. | the_optimist wrote: | Do you think it's acceptable to persecute people who don't | agree with you? Who you don't like? | | Equal rights under the law means equal rights. Not that you | defend your friends, hang your enemies. | [deleted] | mhh__ wrote: | Couldn't this argument basically be used against any court | case short of there being footage of the defendant holding a | gun next to a body? You can nearly always construe some kind | of narrative like this in a "political" case, I'm not sure | it's specific enough. | TheOtherHobbes wrote: | No. Because - until recently - government critics rarely | ended up in court. | lazide wrote: | That's pretty clearly not true - there have always been | politically motivated prosecutions, witchhunts, and shady | dealings of various flavors in every government I've been | able to find decent records for. | | Recently here in the US, it's been everything from 'The | Red Scare' and McCarthyism to Hoover era FBI attacking | and undermining every 'revolutionary' group that wasn't | upholding the status quo in the 60's-70's - and many | more. That includes everything from attempted blackmail | on Martin Luther King to COINTELPRO (documented, not a | conspiracy theory). And that's what has leaked - there is | almost certainly more that never had a solid paper trail. | mhh__ wrote: | But you're kind of doing it now. You could be right, but | currently the reference point of our comments is the | political aspect to the case rather than whether he | committed a crime or not. | teddyh wrote: | "For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law." | upofadown wrote: | Who better than a conspiracy theorist to report on actual | conspiracies? | 0110101001 wrote: | He claimed that he received the DNC and Podesta e-mails from | a disgruntled DNC source in a park and forwarded them to | WikiLeaks on Assange's behalf. He lacks any credibility. Even | Assange had to tell people that "Craig Murray is not | authorized to talk on behalf of WikiLeaks," afterwards. | mhh__ wrote: | Anyone reading this is free to make of Murray what they | want but I genuinely think he is a textbook useful idiot. | He obviously has a grudge against the west, sometimes he's | a useful counterpoint but other times he's literally just | spreading FUD in favour of whoever is not the west (i.e. | they weren't GRU agents, they were a gay couple, honest!) | tablespoon wrote: | > Who better than a conspiracy theorist to report on actual | conspiracies? | | Conspiracy theorists don't typically report on real | conspiracies, they report on imagined ones. | | So having a conspiracy theorist report on a real conspiracy | can actually have the effect of making the real conspiracy | less believable (e.g. a stopped clock may be right twice a | day, but you'll disbelieve it even then). | semanticsbitch wrote: | So said absolutely nothing new here and ignored the | question asked to you | user-the-name wrote: | Literally anyone would be better to report on it. | | Conspiracy theorists are _absolutely awful_ at reporting | facts. When talking about things that are actually true, they | often still manage to mix in so many untrue and misleading | things that the actual truth gets clouded. | TheOtherHobbes wrote: | The UK's tabloid media are _even worse_ at reporting facts. | They 're also notorious for hacking phones and spying on | people. | | Murray may or may not have done something stupid, he may or | may not have said things that were inaccurate. | | But he's still basically a blogger with a relatively | insignificant profile. Not a national figure with a huge | reach. | | When an ancient law gets dusted off and thrown at someone | like him, while much more obvious media transgressions are | ignored, it becomes very hard to conclude that this has | anything to do with a disinterested thirst for fairness and | justice. | user-the-name wrote: | They are absolutely godawful, yes. But worse than | conspiracy theorists? No. | | And he got the law thrown at him and they did not for the | simple reason that he broke the law, and they did not. | ameminator wrote: | All these things may be true, but even then, at least he was | _there_ at the Assange trial. No other source was a as diligent | or up to date with their reporting, even if it was biased. | | Even if you believe all these bad things about him, I don't | believe someone should be jailed for reporting in general. In | specific, I don't see how the facts support a conviction - the | way the argument for "jigsaw" identification of witnesses was | used could apply to _any_ and all reporting about a court case. | No reasonable standard was used (in my opinion). | | Do you think it's alright to put someone in jail because you | don't like them? | ChrisKnott wrote: | What part of GP's post made you think they supporting jailing | people you don't like? | ameminator wrote: | Well, it seemed implied to me. The original post was about | Craig Murray being sent to jail. There are other comments | in this thread coming out in support of (or at least | against the imprisonment of) Murray. | | Then, the parent comment comes out, listing a whole bunch | of reasons not to like Murray, or at least not to support | him. So the implication, as I see it, is that the parent | commenter is alright with Murray going to jail. | | Maybe you're right and that I read too much into it. | However, I'd like to resolve this part that's unclear - | does the parent commenter support putting Murray in jail? | Is it because they don't like him? | matthewmacleod wrote: | I ignored this because I considered it a disingenuous | question, but maybe I should tackle it instead because | this sort of misrepresentation is poisonous. | | No, I obviously do not think "it's alright to put someone | in jail because you don't like them". There's no | reasonable way to construe that from what I said. | | I think the intent of my comment was clearly to express | surprise that people take him seriously as a commentator; | as someone who has been unfortunately very aware of his | views for a long time, it seems obvious to me that he is | an unreliable narrator and any information he presents is | something we should be extremely skeptical of. | | I _do_ think that it can be acceptable to imprison people | for contempt of court. I am pretty familiar with the case | in question, and I have no reason to think that any | conspiracy was required in order to convict him. I | watched him do the things he 's been convicted for as | they happened, and his intent seemed reasonably clear. | | So yes, to answer your direct question - I do "support" | putting Murray in jail, in the sense that he appears to | have received a fair trial for committing a crime, and I | don't see any evidence that his conviction was unexpected | or unreasonable. | | Spinning this as me saying "it's alright to put someone | in jail because you don't like them" is obviously a bad- | faith representation. | [deleted] | wazoox wrote: | He didn't give any name. The people that are supposedly "exposed" | apparently are all fake witnesses, anyway, as Alex Salmond was | cleared in court. This is really disgusting. | rozab wrote: | Those witnesses were absolutely not found to be lying. It's | just that Salmond was not found to be guilty beyond reasonable | doubt. | Tycho wrote: | Is there some succinct explanation for why Murray's reporting | facilitated 'jigsaw identification' while other reports did not? | | I don't want a link to a 50 page court ruling, I want someone to | explain it in a couple of sentences. Something like: | | _Murray did not name Victim X but he specified the occupation of | their spouse, the department they worked in, and their level of | seniority. Given this information, a simple query of public | records would be sufficient to identify this individual._ | bolangi wrote: | > Is there some succinct explanation for why Murray's reporting | facilitated 'jigsaw identification' while other reports did | not? | | That is the point: other media reports gave more information | about the accusers than Murray's reporting. | ameminator wrote: | Craig Murray is a gem! I knew him for his reporting on the | Assange trial [0]. The fact that they convicted him is absolute | lunacy. I happen to agree with his interpretation of the | conviction, because I don't see how anyone could reasonably | convict him. Godspeed Mr. Murray. | | [0] https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/02/your-man- | in-... | mhh__ wrote: | Calling him is a gem is a bit odd given his intellectual | gymnastics about the Skripal poisoning (he said they could've | been a gay couple and honestly expects people to either believe | him or at least not think he's taking the piss). | ameminator wrote: | I did not know about that! You've given me something to look | into. | ChrisKnott wrote: | He stridently accused Bellingcat of photoshopping a picture | which showed one of the assassins on a wall of honour at a | Russian military base (under his real name). Bellingcat | subsequently released several more photos from different | angles, IIRC some of which were still online. Crickets from | Murray... | zarzavat wrote: | He's a conspiracy theorist sure but the rest of the UK media | is in bed with the government, perhaps more concerned about | maintaining their connections so they can keep cranking out | stories. You take what you can get. | | His reporting on the Assange trial has been fantastic. | Considering this trial is one of the most important in recent | times, the lack of reporting from the conventional media has | been very telling about the actual independence of media in | uk. | aimor wrote: | Are these the articles in question? | | https://web.archive.org/web/20200425044010/https://www.craig... | | https://web.archive.org/web/20200426041821/https://www.craig... | AllegedAlec wrote: | Absolutely disgusting. Murray did nothing wrong. | basisword wrote: | I knew nothing of this case until today but it seems like he | breached an injunction against reporting the identity of | complainants or information that could lead to their | identification. From the little bit of reading I've done it seems | pretty like an open and shut case (and I actually went into my | reading expecting my be on Murray's side). | | Can anybody explain why there is an injustice here? Almost every | comment I see here in his favour gives no reason why this is | unjust. | mritun wrote: | Exactly. UK is a democracy with a pretty good justice system | that follows the law, so I was very surprised to read so | negative comments about the outcome of the case. | | Do I feel sorry for the person - yes, but breaking any | injunction from court has extremely predictable outcome! I'm | thinking it could have gone way worse than the 8 months in | prison for him, especially if he were in any other country | (including USA). | | Sad to see this unfold, but extremely predictable outcome of | breaking a court injection... courts take _very_ dim view of | it! | ChrisKnott wrote: | Craig Murray has a lot of fans on HN because he reported | extensively on the Assange extradition hearings in a way that | flattered HNers' biases. | | His actual record as a "journalist" is not great (his | reporting on the Skripal assassins a particular lowlight). | russholmes wrote: | Craig Murray is basically a decent guy. He fell out with | the British government when he was ambassador to Uzbekistam | and broke protocol by protesting about the treatement of | Uzbeks by their government - being boiled to death etc. He | was subsequently bullied, disciplined and dismissed from | his post for acting with humanity and integrity. I think he | was traumatised and experienced something akin to a | psychotic break, after which he saw conspiracies everywhere | in officaldom. I used to follow his blog and it was a | mixture of reasonable analysis and unsubstantiated | consipiracy theories. In this case, he was clearly in the | wrong - he is a blogger with a big following, and he posted | material in breach of the injunction. This is why the | authorities went for him: (1) breaking a court order, and | (2) potentially identifying a sexual assault plaintive. In | the UK the authorities don't muck around if you behave like | that. This is why he is in prison. | manquer wrote: | He didn't directly disclose any name the accusation is he wrote | multiple clues from which witness could be identified . I | haven't seen a clear explanation of how it was identifiable. | | Even if that was true, jailing for media contempt is very very | rare in U.K. and the timing given his involvement with | Wikileaks case is suspect. | jlarocco wrote: | > He didn't directly disclose any name the accusation is he | wrote multiple clues from which witness could be identified . | | Well, judges aren't stupid. I guess he's finding out the hard | way. | FireBeyond wrote: | He was warned that his blog posts and his hinting at | identifying people was considered contempt... | | ... and then he wrote a Yes Minister-esque fanfic which | fairly bluntly painted very direct "clues" to those | identities, and then told his readers "read this carefully | and you'll get those identities", and then acted shocked when | the court didn't say "Damn you, Craig, you foiled and | outsmarted us!", but instead "Posting 'nudge nudge wink wink' | hints to people is effectively the same thing. You know it, | because you told people that's what it was, and we know it. | So we're treating it the same". | LorenPechtel wrote: | It's quite understandable that he could have done this by | accident. People avoid directly identifying someone they're | not supposed to identify but do not realize that they leaked | enough details to uniquely identify them. | | If he's guilty of it we of course do not see the evidence-- | posting the evidence would amount to the same crime that he | was convicted of. | FireBeyond wrote: | He literally wrote a (not so) cryptic piece of prose after | being warned, that spelled out how to identify these people | - and then told his readers if they read it carefully, they | could do exactly that. | | In summary: "not an accident, in any way shape or form". | Dylan16807 wrote: | Can you be more specific? Saying _how_ to identify | someone sounds like a generic piece of useful | information. | manquer wrote: | It seems awfully convenient for the government that | evidence cannot be discussed. | | Either he has already leaked and the name is out there and | his 8 month sentence is justified then it shouldn't matter | that we can discuss or he has kind of "leaked" but no one | really knows anything so we shouldn't have access to the | evidence in which case this ruling and sentence is not | warranted it cannot be both right ? | | The supreme court refused to hear his appeal on the basis | that new media is different from traditional media, that | doesn't seem right. Supreme courts are there to take novel | new cases and set precedence on how the laws are to be | interpreted. Drawing that distinction and not taking the | case to define how such media for contempt has to be | handled does not add up. | | The impact is beyond just this sentence, it affects lot of | journalism on how contempt laws work. In U.K. media freedom | (when it comes to courts) is already not great with stuff | like super injunctions. This kind of vague ruling without | clearly defining what is the kind of mistake me made that | is illegal does not help. | pmyteh wrote: | The judgment isn't vague at all. It sets out, in 90 | paragraphs, the legal and factual basis for the case, | ruling much of it against the crown (mainly on the basis | of delay) and some against Murray. And it goes through | each criticised post and sets out on what basis it was | (or was not) found to be a contempt. | | Now. You and I don't have the posts, because I assume | they've been deleted. That makes it hard if we want to | second guess the judges. But Murray has them, and the | court also does. And frankly the import of the ruling is | straightforward for journalists to follow, too: don't | publish information that could identify rape complainants | in breach of a court order. Which is routine for court | reporters, frankly. | | And FWIW a superinjunction is particularly easy to follow | - don't publish anything about the injunction or the | underlying matter. Is that reasonable? In my view no. I | think they should never have been created. But they | aren't unclear, just Draconian. And they don't apply in | the criminal jurisdiction, or in Scotland, so I'm not | sure they're very relevant here. | manquer wrote: | I was talking about the appeal to supreme court which is | only 9 pages long [1] and yes I read it. | | I am specifically talking about page 3 point 4 | > [4] The applicant describes himself as a "journalist in | new media". Whatever that may > involve, it is | relevant to distinguish his position from that of the | mainstream press, which is > regulated, and | subject to codes of practice and ethics in a way in which | those writing as the > applicant does are not. | | Specifically how being new media is different is one | aspect. The traditional media in U.K. following code of | ethics is quite laughable with the history of tabloids | abuses and news of the world kind of incidents | | The other point is so called "jigsawing clause" is very | vague because it is not explicit on how much lee way | there is for interpretation. Think about it, depending on | how much you already know, _any information or reporting_ | about some event can be used to glean who the person | behind is it. There has to be well defined rules for | something like this as it can otherwise be used prosecute | any reporter /journalist at a whim . As compared to say | "Not naming someone" is clear unambiguous rule to follow | | [1] https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default- | source/cos-genera... | pmyteh wrote: | 'Traditional' journalists are often mendacious bastards, | but also, as a general rule, not stupid enough to flout | court orders. And looking at paragraph 70 of the original | judgment it doesn't look like this case was _anywhere | close_ to raising issues of principle about whether other | journalists could comply with similar anonymity orders. | Which are routine in Scotland and statutory in England | and Wales, and have been for years. And journalists are | not, in fact, prosecuted on a whim for contempt of court. | manquer wrote: | The issue of principle is on how the jigsawing clause | would be applied. It does seem similarly has ambiguous | test like "I Know it when I see it" Justice Steward wrote | for threshold obscenity in _Jacobellis v. Ohio_ [1] | | Yes, U.K. courts are not in general prosecuting for media | contempt ( first case in 50 years?). Relying on the | discretion of the court not to prosecute is not the same | as having precedence on what extent a report can be | interpreted as jigsawing a injunction. "Journalists" (the | appeal seems to regard him as second class one at best) | shouldn't depend on that fact that courts generally will | not prosecute them, Shouldn't they know with some | certainty when they are in the clear ? | | [1] The problem is this is a subjective interpretation, I | should also know it the same as the justice would do to | make sure I am on the right side of the law ? This was | later replaced by Miller test and that established some | guidelines to go by. | throwaway0a5e wrote: | So a classic case of "enforcing laws we don't usually enforce | and stretching the law to do so because we don't like you"? | raincom wrote: | In fact, that's how collusion and correction happens in the | West. In other words, "discretion" is for sale for the | powerful. Prosecution uses discretion to not prosecute the | powerful; Judges use discretion to suppress evidence; etc. | stjohnswarts wrote: | This is almost certainly the case. The judge in this case | most likely is influenced by those who this guy revealed as | corrupt. The powers that be do not like for their friends | to have a hard time. This judge is most likely in on it. | dpwm wrote: | From the decision on the application for permission to | appeal to the UK Supreme Court [0]: | | > The applicant describes himself as a "journalist in new | media". Whatever that may involve, it is relevant to | distinguish his position from that of the mainstream press, | which is regulated, and subject to codes of practice and | ethics in a way in which those writing as the applicant | does are not. To the extent that the submissions for the | applicant make comparisons with other press contempts, and | the role of mainstream journalists, this is a factor which | should be recognised. | | [0] https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos- | genera... | croes wrote: | >subject to codes of practice and ethics | | "The code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than | actual rules" | TheOtherHobbes wrote: | Meanwhile in the regulated press: | | https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/the-sun- | and-d... | [deleted] | wil421 wrote: | It's similar to the reason I disliked Assange and Wikileaks for | not redacting information. Lots of military people and | especially the Afghan translators were named in some of the | leaks. | | This is HN, you and I are likely to get downvotes into oblivion | for having an opposing opinion. | jessaustin wrote: | If any USA soldier or Afghan collaborator had ever been | harmed as a result of Wikileaks' journalism, the war media | would have been wall-to-wall on the story for years. That has | never been reported. Ergo, it never happened. | mhh__ wrote: | https://www.npr.org/2019/04/12/712659290/how-much-did- | wikile... | | This article suggests that certain people have at least | been threatened. You may deem that to be worth the value of | the information being leaked, but it has been reported on. | croes wrote: | Wikileaks didn't leak that in information, it was the | german newspaper "Der Freitag" which published the | password for the encrypted files . | | Wikileaks has worked together with the US authorities to | edit the documents. | tablespoon wrote: | > Wikileaks didn't leak that in information, it was the | german newspaper "Der Freitag" which published the | password for the encrypted files . | | https://www.wired.com/2011/08/wikileaks-leak/: | | > The uncensored cables are contained in a 1.73-GB | password-protected file named "cables.csv," which is | reportedly circulating somewhere on the internet, | according to Steffen Kraft, editor of the German paper | Der Freitag. Kraft announced last week that his paper had | found the file, and easily obtained the password to | unlock it. | | It sounds like Wikileaks was, at the bare minimum, | extremely sloppy. | | There's also this: | | > After nine months of slow, steady publication, | WikiLeaks abruptly opened the spigot last week on its | cable publications, spewing out over 130,000 by Monday | afternoon - more than half the total database. | jessaustin wrote: | This seems to be the most damning phrase from that link, | and it was uttered by a federal government spokesperson | in _2010_ : | | _" No doubt some of those people were harmed when their | identities were compromised."_ | | That's so weak. "I'm sure it will probably happen at some | point!" NPR on Friday afternoon is the sockpupppet the | lizards prefer for their most pathetic, half-assed spin | attempts. No one is listening, no one will challenge the | narrative, they can say whatever they want, and _that_ | was all they dared to say? Yikes. | burnished wrote: | > This is HN, you and I are likely to get downvotes into | oblivion for having an opposing opinion. | | Can you just not? The whinging is a serious distraction. | eganist wrote: | > Can you just not? The whinging is a serious distraction. | | It's also against the rules. That said, the discussion and | comments here | (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27982672 - one of the | only times downvoting could be openly discussed because | it's directly within the scope of the article) definitely | sheds light on frustrations people have with downvotes on | HN. | | Anyway, my comment is offtopic enough. For more downvote | discussion, head to that link instead; at least it'll be on | topic. | wil421 wrote: | I could but the HN, and worse Reddit, mob has down voted | certain opinions without even commenting. Especially as it | relates to whistle blowers and the US military/government. | | I've even seen legitimate conservative view points be | flagged instantly. | burnished wrote: | > I've even seen legitimate conservative view points be | flagged instantly. | | Can you link to these? This claim always seems specious | and that its hiding blatantly awful opinions and I'd love | some good counter examples. | southerntofu wrote: | Take the situation the other way around. If your country had | been colonized ("liberated" they would say) by say Nazi | Germany, Soviet Russia or Daech, would you not consider it | crucial information to know what persons and institutions | collaborated with them? | the_optimist wrote: | Wikileaks deployed an extensive and rigorous redaction | process that met or exceeded journalistic standards. You can | read more about it here: | | https://assangedefense.org/hearing-coverage/wikileaks- | redact... | mhh__ wrote: | Didn't they release the CC details of a bunch of democrat | donors unredacted? | ggrrhh_ta wrote: | they didn't. A journalist of one of the main news media | that had access to the raw data published the key to | decrypt the raw data. | mhh__ wrote: | https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/7/22/12259258/ | wik... | | ? | ggrrhh_ta wrote: | Do you mean the emails that were made available in the | form of thousands of PDFs by the US State Department as a | result of a Freedom of Information Act request and that | wikileaks made searchable? That is a different case: | https://wikileaks.org/clinton- | emails/?q=&mfrom=Hillary+Clint... | varjag wrote: | Wikileaks is one man with a few cult followers. Any feel- | good standard they put in place can be overridden at his | whim. There are enough ex-cultist testimonies to that | effect. | TheOtherHobbes wrote: | You could comfortably say something analogous about the | UK's tabloid press. | | The Daily Mail is sued - and loses - so regularly | management seem to consider it a legitimate business | expense. | varjag wrote: | Sorry I'm not the one to defend Daily Mail. | RubberMullet wrote: | Do you believe Assange lied about Daniel Domscheit-Berg being | the source for the unredacted cables and his conversation | with Cliff Johnson was all for show? Why did he break his own | protocol and release so many documents en mass? | varjag wrote: | Yes, he likely have lied. | | He did forward unredacted cables via Shamir to Belarus' | Lukashenka back in the day, which led to arrests. | | https://naviny.belsat.eu/en/news/the-new-yorker- | lukashenka-a... | RubberMullet wrote: | So Assange intentionally leaked all the documents in a | quasi-suicidal act? Domscheit-Berg had nothing to do with | it? | | https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/leak-at- | wikileaks... | varjag wrote: | How exactly it was quasi-suicidal? Did it affect anything | for him, except some criticism that was very much drowned | out by the cheering crowd? | matthewmacleod wrote: | _Can anybody explain why there is an injustice here? Almost | every comment I see here in his favour gives no reason why this | is unjust._ | | I am far from an unbiased source on this - I'm personally | aghast that anybody would take Craig Murray seriously. | | But trying to be a little objective, I expect that this effect | is primarily because of an instinct we all have to ignore the | flaws in people who are saying things we think are important. | | Murray is popular here for his commentary on the Assange trial. | He is virtually certain to be correct in some of his | accusations about Assange's treatment, and in a community that | values freedom of speech and the rights of whistleblowers that | is a stance that attracts attention and support. Given this, it | could be tempting for some to assume that his imprisonment was | a deliberate action to silence a troublemaker - particularly | when the defendant himself makes that argument. | | On the other hand, it's also totally feasible that someone with | views you support is also entirely seperately capable of doing | dumb things and getting themselves arrested. | | I paid quite a bit of attention to the case in question. His | level of obfuscation was a bawhair away from 'cartoon rat Ricky | Raus', and he requested everyone read "very, very carefully | indeed. Between the lines." It seemed quite obvious to me what | he was trying to do, and a subsequent conviction isn't really | surprising - nor does it require thinking about it in terms of | a conspiracy theory. It just seems strange to me to assume a | state-motivated conspiracy when there's a much simpler answer | right there - regardless of whether or not you agree with the | particular details of the case, or his views in general! | | I guess maybe it's sometimes hard to separate out the views | that we agree with from the harsh realities of flawed | individuals. | kstenerud wrote: | It's a quite long and sordid affair, but I'll do my best to | summarize: | | Craig has been a thorn in the side of the government for some | time, first for exposing corruption in the Scottish seats of | power, the too-cozy relationships between the judicial and | executive branches, and the biased and tainted prosecutions of | anyone who gets in their way (including MPs). | | The accusations against him hinge on the "jigsaw | identification" theory, whereby people could piece together | persons from the material he published. The problem is that | it's so vague that it could be used against *anyone* who | publishes *anything* about a case such as this (and in fact | many publications DID publish information that could easily | lead to the identification of the accuser, but they were given | a pass). This is why he's calling it retribution. | | Furthermore, he's been reporting on the Assange case, and that | has angered the British government, which is why his appeal was | rejected, and why he was not allowed to travel to Spain to give | testimony in a case where the Americans were spying on Assange | and his lawyer via UC Global. | | At this point, Craig's only remaining option is to appeal to | the EU court of human rights, but that's gonna be a tough one | because he's pissed off the Americans too much with the Assange | case. | FireBeyond wrote: | > Furthermore, he's been reporting on the Assange case, and | that has angered the British government, which is why his | appeal was rejected | | Whilst not impossible, this is entirely speculation. | mritun wrote: | You're responding with an argument that says "he pissed off | the government so he was sent to prison" - but he actually | was convicted of violating a court injunction (in India, that | would be contempt of the court). | | It's hard to connect contempt of the court proceedings with | pissing off the government without also alleging that courts | are in the pocket of the government... which is a very | serious connection to draw here. This happened in UK! | kazinator wrote: | The idea is clearly that he pissed off the government _in | other matters_ , and so in this particular case, effort | might have been made behind the scenes to throw the book at | him. | whatshisface wrote: | There are so many serious connections to draw these days | that it's no longer such an argument against it. | teknopaul wrote: | I believe that he has shown that to be the case in advance. | ThrustVectoring wrote: | The courts _are_ the government. A separate branch from the | executive and legislative, sure, but it 's still a | government entity. | ChrisKnott wrote: | In British English this is not the case, "Government" is | use more like "Administration" is used in the US. | hollerith wrote: | What do Brits use to refer to British courts, Parliament | and executive considered as a whole? | darrenf wrote: | Those are the three branches of the state. We consider | government to be the executive only. The judiciary does | not govern. | hollerith wrote: | Ah. Americans use "state" to mean one of the 50 provinces | of the US, leaving the word unavailable for what Brits | use it for. | zarzavat wrote: | What about the state department? | hollerith wrote: | That is our term for what the Brits call the Foreign | Office. | kazinator wrote: | Pointless word semantics aside, the point here is that | they are branches of one thing; if you piss off one | branch, strings can be pulled so that another branch | treats you severely in court. This is plausible. | gatvol wrote: | The alleged means of the so called beach are the nub of the | issue here. 'Jigsaw identification' was a contrivance to | specifically target Mr Murray, and notably is not a | mechanism that has been used against any other entities, | though it could have been. | | For me, it's far too loosely defined and requires | supposition of Intenet (mind reading) , to be used as a | means of conviction. | nickff wrote: | Isn't the "jigsaw identification" essentially similar to | the 'personally identifiable information' addressed by | GDPR? It seems to me that both constructs stand and fall | together. | himinlomax wrote: | PII is precisely defined, not pulled out of thin air, and | nobody's going to jail because of it. Rich corporations | like Amazon are fined for fucking with it though. | mcguire wrote: | All of the data that can be used to identify a person are | precisely defined? | | Or is it that all of the identity data that someone can | be held legally accounted for are precisely defined? | worik wrote: | Golly. Of course the courts and the state are in collusion. | | The interests of the state and those of the courts almost | completely align. Class interests in the UK really matter | and the rulers (not the members of parliament, the actual | rulers) and the judges all went to the same schools, they | are all cousins essentially. | | There is no need for explicit corruption and collusion but | there is plenty of that too. | p_j_w wrote: | >The accusations against him hinge on the "jigsaw | identification" theory, whereby people could piece together | persons from the material he published. The problem is that | it's so vague that it could be used against _anyone_ who | publishes _anything_ about a case such as this | | Have you read the court ruling on the matter? I looked | through it, and it sounds like that's not at all what's going | on here. The court went through each individual accusation of | jigsaw identification he was accused of, and in cases where | jigsaw identification was unlikely, said so. On top of that, | it seems Murray himself was trying to hint to his readers | that he was indeed trying to give information out for the | purpose of helping people figure out who the accusers were. | | >Craig's only remaining option is to appeal to the EU court | of human rights, but that's gonna be a tough one because he's | pissed off the Americans too much with the Assange case. | | Perhaps. Or perhaps he just doesn't have a very strong case. | alisonkisk wrote: | > At this point, Craig's only remaining option is to appeal | to the EU court of human rights, but that's gonna be a tough | one because he's pissed off the Americans too much with the | Assange case | | Does the EU Court of Human Rights care whar Americans think | about him? | kstenerud wrote: | The member states care about America's friendship and | cooperation on many things. You have to follow the power to | see what the results will be. | | Personally, I think he's just doing it to have a record for | posterity once it's rejected, to turn common knowledge | about EU-USA corrupting power relationships into public | knowledge (although I don't share his hope that this will | ever become public knowledge - but then again it takes an | idealist to fight these kinds of battles). | torstenvl wrote: | The courts deciding against his argument would only be | probative on the question of corruption if you start from | the _presumption_ that his position is correct. Your post | is entirely circular in its reasoning. | fauigerzigerk wrote: | This is not in fact an EU court. It's the court that | interprets the European Convention on Human Rights. It's | part of the Council of Europe where the U.S has observer | status and Russia as well as the UK are members. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Right | s | tomatotomato37 wrote: | In the world of realpolitik which do you think matters | more? | | A. The opinion of a world superpower with a military to | match | | B. Ideals | vkou wrote: | It depends on the question. | Brian_K_White wrote: | Only as a side effect of which ideals a superpower | happens to be espousing at that moment. | quietbritishjim wrote: | He claims to have revealed too little information in his | reporting for it to be possible to identify the complainants. | The court disagrees. Really I just see his word against theirs. | | I'd like to see some more specific details so I could form my | own view, or at least hear the view of a disinterested third | party that's seen the relevant posts. | LeifCarrotson wrote: | The court could ask an independent without inside knowledge | of the case to read his reports and check whether or not they | can identify a protected person as a result. | | It's true that the judge can't publicly state "Look, the | third sentence in paragraph four at this URL gives the | victim's initials, a week later in paragraph seven he said | the complainant worked in such-and-such government agency, | and here he tweeted that it was the individual's 47th | birthday. There is only one person who fits these | fingerprints, and their identity is obvious to anyone with a | passing familiarity of that individual." That would invite | everyone else to go read paragraph four, paragraph seven, and | the tweet, and to search out this secret. Or more likely, | that the individual is named directly and repeatedly in the | post, and Craig named them because their name and their | involvement is on public documents, but that they've decided | that he's not allowed to name them. | | But you'd expect them to explain that reasoning behind closed | doors, and then to more publicly deny his rebuttal, unless | there is no such individual. | version_five wrote: | I'm just learning about this now and don't know enough to | have an an opinion, but "his word against theirs" (the | court's) should not be the basis for a conviction. | quietbritishjim wrote: | All I meant by that was, from this article alone I don't | have enough information to form my own opinion. | pydry wrote: | If they provided specific details that would all but require | identifying the suspects. | shellac wrote: | I did read some of the (now offending) posts. | | He didn't name anyone, but at the time I thought he provided | more than enough information to identify one one of the | complainants. Although I'm not au fait with the SNP there | were details about situations, people, and roles that seemed | more than specific enough for people to work out. | | I don't think it was deliberate, and he is probably ignorant | about how easy it can be to de-anonymise people. However he | should have been more sensitive to these issues. | manquer wrote: | Perhaps so, however selective exercising of media contempt | laws when it is not clear cut case ( i.e. naming some one | directly) is suspicious and looks a lot like overreach . | | The timing (he cannot now testify in the Spanish case on | spying on Wikileaks) and quantum of sentence combined with | supreme court refusing to hear his appeal all does not | indicate the system had the best interests for protecting | the witness but more like they wanted to silence him/ media | and send a message . | shellac wrote: | It's unusual, but not the only recent case in the UK. A | notorious right wing campaigner called Tommy Robinson was | jailed a few years ago (but released), and there was a | very unusual case with a juror. | | These were both in England, which may explain the 50 year | thing. | | Edit: actually I'm wrong, the article says: | | "Murray is the first person in the U.K. to be | incarcerated for media contempt in over a half century." | | If we restrict it to what 'media' might mean I suppose | Tommy Robinson was freed on appeal. And a Mail journalist | got away with a suspended sentence. | manquer wrote: | It is even more in Scotland where he is being convicted? | I believe it is 70 years or something like that. | | There is only European court left for Murray to appeal. | The supreme court refused hear his case. | pydry wrote: | >I genuinely do not know who I am supposed to have identified | or which phrases I published are said to have identified them, | in combination with [details] in the public domain. | | >How I genuinely do not know who I am supposed to have | identified or which phrases I published are said to have | identified them, in combination with [details] in the public | domain. | | How on _earth_ is that open and shut? | | Open and shut would be if he published the names, which | _nobody_ claims that he did. | | Conveniently it is also impossible to verify if the crime was | actually committed without naming the individuals. All that is | required to convict is one judge's say so. | | If you were to pick a convenient politically motivated | prosecution this ranks up there with navalny skipping bail by | dint of being in a coma. | orra wrote: | Craig Murray was warned multiple times that his blog posts | were in contempt of court. | | He should have taken down the blog posts, but instead doubled | down. | | Hard to see whence your outrage originates. | MikeUt wrote: | "He should have shut-up when told to." | | I believe the outrage originates from believing that he | should not have been told to shut-up in the first place. | orra wrote: | > believing that he should not have been told to shut-up | in the first place | | The rape and sexual assault complainers had their | anonymity protected by court order. That's completely | normal (in the UK anyway). | | Craig Murray's not a martyr. He's an eejit. | [deleted] | [deleted] | tablespoon wrote: | >> I genuinely do not know who I am supposed to have | identified or which phrases I published are said to have | identified them, in combination with [details] in the public | domain. | | >> How I genuinely do not know who I am supposed to have | identified or which phrases I published are said to have | identified them, in combination with [details] in the public | domain. | | > How on earth is that open and shut? | | I don't see how those statements have any bearing on whether | the case is "open and shut" or not. You're quoting the | defendant, who's almost certainly going to come up with some | argument for their own innocence no matter how strong the | case is. | soperj wrote: | People plead guilty all the time. | tablespoon wrote: | I am aware of that, which is why I said "almost | certainly." | | He also chose to fight this case, so if he didn't want to | undermine it, his only option besides arguing for his | innocence was silence. | pydry wrote: | If indeed the case were open and shut the argument would be | trivially refutable. | | I haven't even seen a coherent rebuttal yet. I'm not sure | it's even possible, given that the evidence in _this_ trial | would, conveniently, have to be kept secret - automatically | ensuring _by default_ it _couldnt_ be open and shut. | | Far from being open and shut it actually stinks to high | heaven. | tablespoon wrote: | > I haven't even seen a coherent rebuttal yet. I'm not | sure it's even possible, given that the evidence in this | trial would, conveniently, have to be kept secret. | | This guy claims he read the original posts and was able | to identify one of the complainants from the information | there: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28009316 | | But my point was mainly the Murray is so obviously biased | that his statements need to be read with that in mind. | Plus denials like "I do not know" and "I don't recall" | are some of the vaguest and least credible (since they're | almost impossible to prove or disprove). | littlecosmic wrote: | I clicked through the link and I think that the commenter | felt that there was enough information to identify | someone, not that they _had_ identified someone. | Brian_K_White wrote: | Wait, so vagueness is a bad thing after all? Or only whe | he does it? | croes wrote: | Sure he is quoting Murray because there is nothing you can | quote from the judge how Murray has identified someone. | user-the-name wrote: | Why are you taking his words at face value here? | dahfizz wrote: | > If you were to pick a convenient politically motivated | prosecution this ranks up there with navalny skipping bail by | dint of being in a coma. | | I would agree with you, except his prison sentence is only 8 | months. If this was some corrupt hit job, they could have | easily put him in prison for decades. | jonathlee wrote: | "Only 8 months" tells you nothing of the conditions or | prison population within which he will be placed. 8 months | in solitary or in a maximum-security prison (where hard- | core, repeat-offender murderers and rapists are) is much | harsher than years in a minimum-security prison. | | Julian Assange, who hasn't even been convicted AFAIK, has | been kept in solitary in a maximum-security prison while | only being accused, falsely it turns out, of non-violent | crimes. The reasonableness of the entire punishment must be | taken into account, not just the duration. | dahfizz wrote: | > The reasonableness of the entire punishment must be | taken into account, not just the duration. | | I agree, and I am not arguing that the treatment of Craig | Murray has been reasonable. I am arguing that, if this | was a larger conspiracy against him, his prison sentence | would be much longer. | smcl wrote: | I'm the same. Everyone was told not to reveal identities of the | victims, he was blogging about the case and was deemed to have | published info that could've doxed them. The news is | understandably vague on the subject (lest they repeat the | offence) and the posts are down. So it's hard to know what to | think. Just remember that there's a lot of very strong feelings | about Scottish independence (which is kinda wrapped up in this) | and the SNP (the dominant party in Scotland) so anyone speaking | definitively for/against him who was not directly involved in | the case are likely drawing more from personal feelings and | other grievances than the actual case itself | jollybean wrote: | In this case they were accusers not victims. | pmyteh wrote: | The judgement is available[0]. It doesn't read to me like the | judges were out to get him: they specifically reject the | majority of the allegations of contempt made by the crown. | Paragraphs 70-90 contain the interesting bit, and 70 is | absolutely damning in my view. It basically reports Murray as | openly writing an 'encoded' version of some of the claimants | names in the form of some Yes Minister fanfic, in the | knowledge of the anonymity order and with the intention that | the code would be broken by close reading 'between the lines' | (which he expressly encouraged). | | That's an open and shut contempt, and courts do not play | silly buggers with people who think that if they're very | clever orders don't apply to them. Even given that the crown | (the Scottish government, who were prosecuting Salmon and | made the contempt of court complaint) are out to get Murray, | that doesn't make him a martyr, it makes him an idiot. | | [0]: https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos- | genera... | dfawcus wrote: | The 'fan fiction' was written, and published before the | court case, and hence before the anonymity order. As it | was, I wasn't able to figure out any encoded messages at | the time. | | Now one could argue that it was inadvisable to leave it up | after the order, but that is a different matter. | ajb wrote: | I read his articles as they came out, and did not figure | out who the protected parties were. OTOH I am pretty sure I | can figure at least two of them out after reading the | _judgement_. It 's possible that you could have figured out | at the time if you were more familiar with the Dramatis | Personae. But I do think it's plausible that he didn't | think anyone would from his articles. | mcguire wrote: | " _[70] He wrote the "Yes, Minister" article after a | health scare because "there were things I would not wish | to die without having told". There was thus clearly an | intention to convey to the public information and opinion | about the criminal proceedings and the background | thereto. It is clear that he understood the risk inherent | in the action he was taking, since he states that it was | "a challenge" to work out how to convey the information | "without being in contempt of court" (paragraph 54 of the | affidavit). He used certain strategies seeking to avoid | being in contempt, the main one of which was "to leave | information that people would not understand the | ramifications of but would after the trial or once | further evidence emerged". It is a reasonable inference | that by using coded language he anticipated that if not | at the time of the article, at least by the conclusion of | the trial, the material would be understood beyond its | ex-facie terms.In a tweet of 19 January, in direct | reference to this article, he wrote:"I implore everybody | who supports Independence -and indeed everybody with an | interest in justice -to read this article very, very | carefully indeed.Between the lines."A comment was made by | him in the 12 March article is to similar effect: "I am | dependent on you reading this whole article with | intelligence, and thinking "I wonder why he just told me | that bit? Where was that relevant? "_" | | The court seems to disagree. | nomrom wrote: | So plausible that people closer to the facts and details | thought he did. | pydry wrote: | >was deemed to have published info that could've doxed them. | The news is understandably vague on the subject | | "Could" have doxxed them? The newspapers are "understandably | vague"? | | How does that align with this being an open and shut case? | | Especially it's a law that hasnt been used for 70 years | applied against a well known dissident. | handelaar wrote: | The laws have been in place for decades and have at no | point not been in full effect. The reason nobody's been | prosecuted and convicted for 70 years is that nobody with | half a brain commits the offence. | pmyteh wrote: | 70 years? The Contempt of Court Act was passed in 1981 and | is used routinely for anonymity orders. | smcl wrote: | I was just saying I have no idea what to think, and no real | way to do so. | jlarocco wrote: | Yeah. It seems he (indirectly) released the names of (alleged) | sexual assault victims, against a court order. | | Regardless of what he's done otherwise, it seems pretty clear | he was in the wrong here. | colordrops wrote: | Because secret hearings at unjust. | dangerface wrote: | This is nuts arrested for reporting on the justice system, thats | a pretty fucked justice system. | imwillofficial wrote: | An absolute travesty. Justice is not served by this. The open | corruption in the west is getting to banana republic levels. | cmurf wrote: | Well past it. The bribe is "be a normal everyday docile | consumer who minds your own business". This is relatively easy | and affordable for most folks | briantakita wrote: | See something say nothing...if you know what's good for you | | The whistleblowers are punished while the criminals committing | the crimes are regarded as heroes. | | The consequence is that it's rational to assume that these | agencies are not trustworthy nor do they work for the public. | thereddaikon wrote: | Title is misleading. He wasn't jailed for whistleblowing. He was | jailed for apparently revealing identities of victims. Not sure | about the specifics, I haven't been following the case and I'm | not familiar with it. Sounds like its pretty contentious. All I | know is many places including the UK have a far more restricted | concept of freedom of speech than the US does. So its probably a | lot easier for them to jail journalists over what they publish | billytetrud wrote: | What part of the title is misleading exactly? The title doesn't | say he is going to jail because whistleblowing is illegal. But | he is indeed going to jail for things about how his whistle | blowing was done. I think it's misleading to call the OP's | title misleading | thereddaikon wrote: | The title implies he was jailed for being a whistleblower. If | you read it without having any prior knowledge of who this | guy is or why he was being prosecuted that's how it sounds. | billytetrud wrote: | It seems pretty clear that he is being jailed for being a | whistleblowers. The case brought against him seems | incredibly flimsy. Its retaliation, plain and simple. | mattigames wrote: | "revealing the identity of the victims"... Yeah, such | identities were "revealed" by jigsawing documents which are | part of the whistleblow, not because he gave their names or | anything alike but by inference of the readers, who just happen | to be extremely biased against the whistleblower. So yeah, it | couldn't be clearer that he is being jailed for being a | whistleblower. | [deleted] | croes wrote: | He was acquitted, so either they were misjudgements or the | victims were just accusers. | thereddaikon wrote: | Good point. | srtjstjsj wrote: | > He described how the judges found Murray guilty of "jigsaw | identification," which refers to the "possibility that a person | may piece together information from various sources to arrive at | the identification of a protected witness." | | Why isn't every advertising/marketing data broker in jail for | "jigsaw identification"? | dahfizz wrote: | I'm pretty confident that advertisers would not keep an | `is_protected_witness` flag in their profiles. | cstross wrote: | In Scottish law -- and in English/Welsh law in parallel (the | legal systems are different) -- there is no absolute right of | free speech, like the US first amendment. Consequently, | exposing the identity of witnesses (and in some cases the | accused and the victim) in a criminal trial is itself a | criminal offense. | | Note the important bit here is _in a criminal trial_. Murray is | going to prison because he was found guilty of actions which | threatened to cause a mistrial in a criminal case, not because | he was deanonymizing advertising /marketing data. | makomk wrote: | I'm pretty sure journalists have actually, non-hypothetically | caused mistrials in criminal cases through their reporting in | the UK and not been jailed for it. In fact as far as I can | tell none of the journalists who did this in the UK have been | jailed, at least not in the last few decades. | lazide wrote: | There is a reason why the 1st amendment is the 1st of the | amendments - this has happened for a long time not just in | England but elsewhere. | | It's VERY convenient for those in power to selectively | apply laws like this, and overall bad for society. But like | most cases, as long as it isn't too blatant, it doesn't | rise to the level of common outrage. | | It got bad enough in the past to make the top of the stack | of 'stuff to fix in v2' here. | | The constitution though is just words on paper if people | don't follow it day to day, and you can see examples of | steady erosion from it (gag orders, national security | orders, etc.) | [deleted] | coldtea wrote: | It's like when someone gets in the eye of local cops, and they | will "make their life difficult", come at them with trumped-up | charges, etc.... | | States and their organizations work the same way, and prosecutors | and judges friendly to their cause (and furthering their career) | after a friendly chat with some official, are a dime a dozen. Add | some diplomatic pressure (or offer) from a bigger power, and | third countries are just as accomondating. E.g. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_... | | And good luck proving any of that collision (proof which the | politically naive will demand, because they think no such thing | can happen in the best of all possible worlds...) | r721 wrote: | The Scotsman story: https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime/craig- | murray-to-begin-ja... | tyingq wrote: | Is there a UK equivalent of a "Presidential Pardon"? Seems like | the only remaining way for some future PM to try and fix this. | pydry wrote: | About as likely as Navalny getting a presidential pardon. | [deleted] | manquer wrote: | Royal pardon or more formally "Royal prerogative of mercy" | exists in the U.K. Formally it is power of the crown, however | in practice it is delegated to Lord Chancellor in England. | Scotland has a different structure for this AFAIK. | | Craig Murray is a former ambassador and supports Scottish | independence so it would be lot more complicated even if the | government wanted to do something about it. Also it is only 8 | month sentence, so it won't make any practical difference if | some future government post-facto does pardon him. | | Side note: U.S. tooks its legal system largely from England and | made modifications as they thought fit, presidential pardons | were specifically designed to mirror the royal pardon without | the monarchy part of it. | tyingq wrote: | >Also it is only 8 month sentence, so it won't make any | practical difference if some future government post-facto | does pardon him. | | I imagine it would make some difference for his legacy, to | his family, etc. | manquer wrote: | I meant as practically not much scope for any relief on the | sentence term itself. | gadders wrote: | Craig Murray has some strange theories, and is pretty far from me | politically, but him being sent to jail for this ridiculous | allegation re: "identifying" "victims" of Alex Salmond is | appalling. | | It just shows how corrupt Scottish politics and the SNP is. | alisonkisk wrote: | What whistle did he blow? | ttctciyf wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Murray#Ambassador_to_Uzb... | baq wrote: | lesson to whistleblowers of all kinds and agendas: if you want to | keep blowing the whistle, do everything you can to stay | undercover. live to fight another day. | mxmilkiib wrote: | https://www.dounetherabbithole.co.uk for the festival they and | their kid Jamie have been involved with, looking forward to that | next year | thiagoharry wrote: | Just a coincidence that another whistleblower is having problems | with the law and being persecuted. | | There is a term for when laws are weaponised to be used against | enemies: 'lawfare'. This is becaming too common in the world. | metalliqaz wrote: | Quoted from the article: "I genuinely do not know who I am | supposed to have identified or which phrases I published are said | to have identified them, in combination with [details] in the | public domain." | | This sounds really bad, until you see that the court did point to | specific blog posts. His position apparently hinges on the fact | that specific phrases were not picked out from a handful of blog | posts. It seems to me that the relevant facts that were revealed | could be enumerated quite easily from that list of blog posts. | | Victims are protected for a reason. This guy seems like a bit of | a bastard. | p_j_w wrote: | Do you have some examples to share? My first thought reading | this was, similar to what you say, "this sounds really bad," | and my inclination here is to side with Craig Murray. At the | same time, the article linked by OP doesn't point to any sort | of court ruling or proceedings where the reader might be able | to check against the claims being made that the trial was, | indeed, Kafkaesque. This obviously raises some suspicions. | jessaustin wrote: | I guess we're unlikely to see the forbidden phrases Murray | dared to utter, since after all they're forbidden and few HN | commentators want to go to prison. | p_j_w wrote: | This is handwaving snark and dismissiveness. It's not a | very helpful reply. Indeed, another posted linked to the | actual court ruling, which does indeed point to the | offending articles. It makes the claims of a Kafkaesque | trial sound dramatically overblown. | jessaustin wrote: | So... the court claims for itself the right to "harm" | these people in the same way for which it chose to | imprison Murray? I'm sure I'll never understand this. | p_j_w wrote: | Come again? | tablespoon wrote: | > I guess we're unlikely to see the forbidden phrases | Murray dared to utter, since after all they're forbidden | and few HN commentators want to go to prison. | | As far as I know, most HN commentators are 1) American, 2) | pseudonymous, 3) and unlikely to be extradited because I | doubt these kinds of laws would be constitutional in the | US. | jessaustin wrote: | Haha yeah the extradition rules are hardly symmetric are | they? How the mighty empire has fallen... | tablespoon wrote: | Aren't they though? It's just one of the requirements is | the conduct would have to be a crime in both countries? | It's not like extradition is "you give us everyone we | want, and we'll give you everyone you want." | jackweirdy wrote: | The judgement is here, page 36 onwards lays out all the | articles the petitioner claims had contempt of court, and the | courts interpretation of whether they did or didn't | | https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos- | genera... | p_j_w wrote: | Thank you. His claims of a Kafkaesque trial don't sound | very well founded when I read this ruling. | blibble wrote: | he has a a reputation for being a conspiracy theorist and | general lunatic in the UK | p_j_w wrote: | I went through his blog and read some of his posts for | context. That reputation doesn't seem entirely unearned. | celticninja wrote: | Are they still victims if the accused is cleared of wrongdoing? | | Don't they become false accusers at that stage? | | Why do accusers get to keep anonymous when defendants can not? | micv wrote: | There not being enough evidence to convict does not equal a | false accusation. | MisterBastahrd wrote: | Potentially? | | "Not guilty" does not mean "innocent." | morpheos137 wrote: | Is this 1984 style newspeak? | | In Common Law countries defendants in criminal proceedings | are afforded a presumption of innocent. Therefore if they | are found not guilty they stay innocent as originally | presumed. | MisterBastahrd wrote: | You are pretending that the legal definition of innocence | is the same as the moral or colloquial definition. | | They aren't remotely the same. | orra wrote: | > In Common Law countries | | (FYI, Scots law is not solely common law. Scots law is a | hybrid civil and common law.) | | > Therefore if they are found not guilty they stay | innocent as originally presumed. | | The point the other poster was making is: being found Not | Guilty or Not Proven, beyond reasonable doubt, in a | criminal trial does not imply the accused was morally | innocent. | | Often juries may suspect the accused is morally guilty | but feel there is insufficient evidence. | | Jurors in the UK however are never allowed to talk about | their deliberations. So we can't know their reasoning. | celticninja wrote: | I disagree, innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty | implies guilt has not been proven, therefore remaining | innocent. | andrewaylett wrote: | Specifically, innocent in the eyes of the law. The legal | status is very different from the factual question of | whether he actually did it, which is why different legal | processes have different standards of proof. And also why | procedural problems, which obviously don't change whether | or not the event _happened_ , can still result in the | accused being found innocent in the eyes of the law. | | I'd also point out that "his behaviour was not bad enough | for him to be convicted of a crime" isn't exactly a | ringing character endorsement. Especially when the | Scottish Government messed up the prosecution, something | they _really_ shouldn 't have been involved in. | jjgreen wrote: | The law under which Murray was prosecuted does not protect | victims, it protects accusers -- Salmond was cleared. | jackweirdy wrote: | The March 25 judgement referred to is here: | https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-genera... | gorgoiler wrote: | In what way did he identify the Salmond trial complainants? | croes wrote: | He didn't, but the judge said he made jigsaw identification | possible. | trhway wrote: | >"jigsaw identification" | | as performed by who? By Sherlock Holmes? or by a regular Shmoe | lacking any logic skills and thus believing every bit of | propaganda coming through TV and Internet. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-07-30 23:00 UTC)