[HN Gopher] Giraffes are as socially complex as elephants ___________________________________________________________________ Giraffes are as socially complex as elephants Author : Tomte Score : 204 points Date : 2021-08-05 15:00 UTC (7 hours ago) (HTM) web link (edition.cnn.com) (TXT) w3m dump (edition.cnn.com) | MichaelZuo wrote: | From the actual article: "Until 2000, giraffe were believed to | have no social structure (Innis 1958, Foster & Dagg 1972, Dagg & | Foster 1976, Leuthold 1979), largely because of the daily | fluidity in their group composition (Foster & Dagg 1972, Pratt & | Anderson 1982, Pellew 1984a, Pratt & Anderson 1985)." | | That was quite interesting reasoning because applying that to | humans would seem silly. A fair number of people when observed by | a distant third party, such as bachelor salesmen, solo travel | bloggers, single real estate agents, etc., have little to no | social structure because of the daily fluidity in their group | composition. | | For the giraffe researchers to have actually believed that seems | like an instance of anti-anthropomorphism, that another mammal in | this case must operate in totally alien ways. | eloff wrote: | This is surprising, because elephants have huge brains and | giraffes have tiny brains. Size isn't everything apparently. I | still think there's no question that elephants are more | intelligent. | bussierem wrote: | Neanderthals had bigger craniums than homo sapiens (and thus | bigger brains), so it does indeed seem like size isn't the | biggest factor. Granted, that size difference is much smaller | than elephant vs giraffe haha. | dstick wrote: | As the old ice-age saying goes: it's not the size, but what | you do with it ;-) | Mikeb85 wrote: | I mean most anthropologists now believe that Neanderthals | were at least as intelligent as homo sapiens, and most of us | do have some Neanderthal genes... | JoeAltmaier wrote: | But not any related to intelligence? Its got do to with | depression, addiction, stuff like that? | | You'd think we'd have their 'brain genes' if they were any | better. | actuator wrote: | Why is depression not related to intelligence? | tshaddox wrote: | "Intelligence" isn't synonymous with "evolutionary | fitness." There are plenty of reasons why the genes of a | more intelligent species might have had less reproductive | success than the genes of a less intelligent species. | kdmoyers wrote: | Indeed, I think Steven Jay Gould said that the jury is | still out on whether intelligence has proved a successful | trait for humans, given that we have been around for | barely eye blink on evolutionary time scales. | tsimionescu wrote: | Given that we know next to nothing about intelligence at | this level, no one can say that some gene doesn't have | any effect on intelligence, especially if it has any kind | of effect on the brain. | Baeocystin wrote: | IIRC, the vast majority of Neanderthal genes that have | persisted in to Modern human populations relate to immune | system function, but I haven't read anything about | depression or addiction-related genes being in that set. | Is this a new discovery, or have I just missed it? | caddemon wrote: | Many, many genes can contribute in some (usually very | small) way to depression/addiction/other psychiatric | disorders, and a single gene can contribute risk to a | variety of disorders. So it's not as clear cut of a thing | to identify as whether a gene is involved in the immune | system. In fact immune system genes have come up towards | the top of genome wide association studies for conditions | like Schizophrenia. So it doesn't even have a clean | relationship with "genes expressed in the brain". | | All that is just to say that there is evidence that some | Neanderthal mutations are linked to depression risk, but | I wouldn't go so far as to characterize any of the | involved genes as depression-related. Maybe that's just | semantics though. | | More specifically here is a relevant snippet from a study | summary [1]: "These analyses supported links to traits | such as mood disorders, depression, obesity and different | types of keratosis. The most significant associations | were for mood disorders and depression, for which | Neanderthal SNPs can explain up to ~1% of the risk." | | IIRC there was also a (less strong) association with | nicotine addiction. Not sure about addiction more | generally. | | [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2016.26 | Baeocystin wrote: | Thank you! | krisoft wrote: | I see that your unstated but implied stance is that | Neanderthals were less inteligent than homo sapiens. Do we | know that? How do we know that? | failwhaleshark wrote: | Honestly, I would wager the critical attribute would likely | have been that Neanderthals were more naive than h. s. | sapiens. The specific inability to anticipate and mitigate | deception would put them at continual disadvantages in | mating, pair bonding, warfare, and resource | sharing/acquisition. | buu700 wrote: | What I remember being taught in school is that Neanderthals | were more intelligent than Cro-Magnons in many ways, but | were ultimately less successful (evolutionarily speaking) | because they were less social. | JoeAltmaier wrote: | By their art, their technology, the environments they could | live in, their slow rate of adaptation to change. On and | on. | jyscao wrote: | > their slow rate of adaptation to change | | This particular failing of Neanderthals resulted more | from their extremely small effective population size, | i.e. spiralling inbreeding, which eventually lead to | total population collapse. | robbedpeter wrote: | There's not a lot of evidence to support that, though | there is some. They could have been wiped out by disease, | as opposed to any superior intelligence on the part of us | sapiens. | mellavora wrote: | Interestingly enough, homo sapiens was also really slow | to adopt to change for a very very long time. Basic | toolkit was unchanged for something like 1M years. | | Then cam the Tonga event, homo sapiens population is | reduced to less than a thousand individuals (perhaps much | less), and suddenly we got creative. | | Innovation wasn't a thing before that. It has been | everything since. | Baeocystin wrote: | I was under the impression that the evidence for the | Tonga event being the driver of a human bottleneck has | weakened in recent years. Is that incorrect? | canadianfella wrote: | What is the Tonga event? | crazygringo wrote: | But isn't all that essentially cultural knowledge? | | If you compare the art and technology of Homo sapiens | 50,000 years ago vs 50 years ago... it's clear that | 50,000 years ago gives no inkling of Homo sapiens' | intelligence. | | So how could we possibly infer that Neanderthals were | less intelligent? How could we possibly separate their | intelligence from their state of cultural and technology | evolution? | | Edit: indeed, a quick Google search reveals that the idea | that Neanderthals were less intelligent than humans has | no real evidence, that it's now considered to be an | outdated/discredited view. So wherever you seem to be | getting your facts and conclusions from, appears to be | wrong. | eloff wrote: | Not necessarily wrong, but there isn't much evidence | either way. | darkerside wrote: | I've read that Neanderthals were actually more | intelligent, but that they were less social than Sapiens. | Sapiens ganged up on the more solitary Neanderthals and | overwhelmed them through violence or breeding. | lancesells wrote: | I believe octopi have small brains and from and according to | research are fairly intelligent creatures. | | My guess is we've been underestimating the intelligence of most | animals. | staplers wrote: | Brain folding (not size) is thought to be associated with | more efficient cognition. | robbedpeter wrote: | Cortical layers seem to play a significant factor - | wrinkles affect the surface area of the cortex, but layers | seem to dictate the level of abstraction a species can | comprehend - it's one of the biggest differences between | reptiles, mammals, birds, and amphibians. While only | mammals have a cortex, in other species, like birds, there | are layered structures that can approximate cortical | function. Animals that lack a layered cortex or analogous | feature, or that have fewer layers in the structure, are | demonstrably less intelligent. Birds have an advanced | pallum, which is what gives them the edge over reptiles. | | The last 4-5 years have been wonderful for neural biology. | __s wrote: | Same with "bird brain" as an insult, meanwhile corvid's | display quite a bit of intelligence | jazzyjackson wrote: | I've always wondered if the corvids notice how bird-brained | all the other birds are. | the_af wrote: | It depends on the bird though, doesn't it? | | I seem to remember (from one of Konrad Lorenz's books | maybe?) that while corvids are extremely smart, some other | birds are pretty dumb by human standards... I think some | raptors, like eagles and hawks, are very simple-minded. It | struck me reading this as a kid because I thought eagles | were majestic, how come they aren't also smart? Disclaimer: | this may very well be outdated scientific understanding of | raptors. | LeegleechN wrote: | My understanding is that octopus limbs are semi-autonomous, | whereas giraffe legs aren't doing any more decision-making | than they are for people or cats. | | Which is not to say that I disagree that most people | underestimate animal intelligence. | Baeocystin wrote: | All cephalopods lack myelination in their neural toolkit. | What this means is that signal propagation between neurons | is between 10-100x slower than, say, a mammal, and it makes | signal integration over distance a hard problem. | | That evolution has found a way to achieve high relative | intelligence against such a strong constraint is endlessly | fascinating! | nicoburns wrote: | Bees are also surprisingly intelligent, and have absolutely | tiny brains. | minikites wrote: | Cephalopods are quite intelligent too, there's plenty of | intelligence in non-mammals. | mft_ wrote: | ...and crows are one of the smartest of all, yet have | relatively tiny brains. | amelius wrote: | Reminds me of: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26344650 | bsanr wrote: | There is a commonly-held - though contentious, if not outright | fallacious - notion that environmental conditions in Europe | helped to shape complex society there. On that same token, | between African primates, elephants, and giraffes, one has to | wonder if there's something about the African forests and | savannah that encouraged the development of complex social | arrangements (and the intelligence involved in maintaining them). | andyxor wrote: | geraffes are so dumb | https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/8aqjh/awww_this_is_ju... | technothrasher wrote: | While I was visiting Botswana, I observed a group of young | giraffes clearly playing tag with each other. After that, I had | no doubt they're pretty socially intelligent creatures. | evmar wrote: | If you're in the Bay Area and interested in an up close encounter | with a giraffe, I recommend https://www.safariwest.com/ . | | (Disclaimer: no affiliation, I just enjoyed my visits there. I | also have done no research into whether the animals are | mistreated or anything.) | caddemon wrote: | This looks interesting, hadn't heard of it before - thanks! | | Also in the Bay Area, I was able to feed a giraffe at the San | Francisco Zoo, which was super exciting! Their tongues are | really impressive, would recommend feeding a giraffe at some | point. | | It was a few years ago, but at least back then they had | specific times listed online when you could watch the giraffes | get fed. The key was to show up at a low traffic time to get a | chance to interact. | skohan wrote: | This brings me back to the time I was in Kenya: seeing Giraffes | in the wild was one of the most enchanting experiences I have had | in nature. | | I was walking in one of the national parks, and we happened upon | a young one in a clearing. When we got a little closer, the rest | of the group emerged, their necks rising above the trees in front | of us. The whole group galloped past us, with a motion almost | like they were in slow motion or underwater with the way they | float on top of their long limbs. | | It was really different from seeing them standing in a zoo. | stronglikedan wrote: | > in a zoo | | I saw one at (I think) Disney Animal Kingdom. It seemed to be | curious because it peeked into the vehicle. I was absolutely | astonished at how huge the head was. They look so tiny up in | the air. It was like seeing a traffic light at eye level for | the first time. | thaumasiotes wrote: | > I was absolutely astonished at how huge the head was. They | look so tiny up in the air. | | A more accessible example of this effect is that your foot, | heel to toe, is about the same length as your forearm, elbow | to wrist. | | People have real trouble believing this because your foot is | always farther away than your arm is. | BeFlatXIII wrote: | Who else just raised their foot to their forearm to | compare? I can now verify that you are correct. | valec wrote: | ...or to look at your dick from above then closer up | h2odragon wrote: | The Nashville Zoo has a station where you go up on a platform | and feed the giraffes lettuce. The heads are huge, the | tongues are amazingly long and agile, and the slobber is | nearly Great Dane grade. | | Very cool thing, they charge $5 for the lettuce but its worth | it. I'd pay more than that to be licked by a giraffe. | Baeocystin wrote: | That is so cool. I remember seeing the giraffes at the San | Diego Wild Animal Park at near head level, and they really | are something up close. Didn't get to feed them, though! | lifeisstillgood wrote: | One would assume that the big dinosaurs had similar social | strengths. I mean when you are effectively un-predatable (!), | like an elephant or giraffe, or a homo species with clubs and | fire, all your competition is others of your species. | technothrasher wrote: | un-predatable? I've seen plenty of predators in Africa happily | munching away on giraffe carcasses. There are even a few lion | prides who specialize in hunting elephants, but giraffes are | commonly prey. | lifeisstillgood wrote: | So I happily bow to local / expert knowledge, but my | understanding is that giraffe deaths by lions are fairly rare | and even when they are eaten scavenging is involved. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe#Mortality_and_health | technothrasher wrote: | I think it is certainly true that healthy adults are less | likely to get taken than the old, sick, or young, as the | Wikipedia article points out. But that's true for many prey | species. | | Here's an apropos shot I took of a lion family in the | Linyanti Swamps in Northern Botswana enjoying their giraffe | kill- https://www.skeptical.org/lionseating.jpg (and to | Wikipedia's point, this one was definitely young). | darkerside wrote: | Coyotes snatch a toddler every once in a while, don't | they? | technothrasher wrote: | Apparently only one known incident of a child killed by a | coyote, according to Wikipedia: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Keen_coyote_attack | lotsofpulp wrote: | If a dingo counts as similar enough to a coyote, then I | would make it 2: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azaria_Chamberlain | ajklsdhfniuwehf wrote: | in other news, in south africa you can buy giraffe pate which is | made almost like foie gras | caddemon wrote: | Not sure if the CNN article is accurately representing the | research, but it sounds like the social structure is mostly | specific to female giraffes: "Male giraffes, however, only | associate consistently with their mothers." | somewhereoutth wrote: | Giraffes aren't real. | ekster wrote: | Is this an actual conspiracy theory? | okareaman wrote: | Apparently: The Truth Comes Out: Giraffes Are A Hoax | | https://chivomengro.com/2017/10/23/the-truth-comes-out- | giraf... | | _If the truth ever got out and it became common knowledge | that one of the most iconic African animals wasn't even real, | and that Disney has been lying to us for decades, the company | would be in major economic danger._ | ekster wrote: | I am surprised it isn't tied in to US politics somehow. | [deleted] | ianbicking wrote: | In interesting giraffe facts, eye size seems related to eyesight | (little animals with little eyes actually can't see well), and | giraffes have gigantic eyes, 10x the volume of human eyes. They | are known to be able to see a human move a mile away. Other | animals watch giraffe to get signals about nearby predators. | | Good references are hard to find, but here's a weird article that | seems auto generated but also kind of useful...? | https://sciencing.com/information-giraffe-eyes-8665464.html | MichaelZuo wrote: | Although that seems to make sense, eagles, and most birds of | prey generally have smaller eyes than humans and yet they seem | to have excellent sight too? Easily 20/5 vision from what I | remember for bald eagles. | nicoburns wrote: | > they are known to be able to see a human move a mile away | | I don't doubt that Giraffes have good eyesight, but being able | to see a human move a mile away doesn't seem like a | particularly difficult feat. A human could also do that with a | clear line of sight. | xyproto wrote: | How socially complex are the most advanced fish? | jchoksi wrote: | Its now well known that Giraffes pee on the shorter creatures | after a video taped confession from one of them - | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IHhAKnCtKc | kilroy123 wrote: | Some of them have strong and funny personalities. I was at an | animal rescue place in harare, zimbabwe. Not many tourists go | there and they thought I was crazy for being there, alone. | | Anyways, it was evening and getting dark. They served food and I | was sitting there alone eating my food. When suddenly, one of the | giraffes snuck up behind me and licked the side of my face! I | turned and saw it very close to me and it scared the living hell | out of me. | | I think he was being a pig and wanted my food but it was pretty | funny. | | Later in the evening he was bugging one of the families and | wanted food. This huge animal was basically like a giant dog. | | Sadly, some people take on African animals as pets. Then they get | old and give them up. Then they go to the rescue center. | | The wildebeest also was confused and thought he was a family dog. | fidesomnes wrote: | Truly one of the most magnificent creatures on earth. Up there | with dolphins and elephants that should be protected at any | price. | animanoir wrote: | Well, not just giraffes, ALL ANIMALS have been misunderstood, | including humans. If we could just respect every sentient animal | that would radiate into our society to increase moral and ethic | health. | kiliantics wrote: | Misunderstood in the value system of western civilisation. I | think there are other cultures that afford far more respect to | other animals and humans. | tzone wrote: | Honestly curious, which other cultures have more advanced and | fairer human rights setup compared to "western | civilizations"? | vincentpants wrote: | "Advanced". "Fairer". (In massive air quotes) lol. Like the | advanced and fair culture that is responsible for all the | permafrost melt this year? I dunno man, I think it's the | inverse of that. I think all those that adopted Capitalism | are at the bottom of those subjective lists you just | mentioned. | liamdgray wrote: | Are you equating "advanced" with "fairer?" Reminds me of | what someone called "chronological chauvinism." | tzone wrote: | In case of human rights, what would more advanced mean | other than one that is more fair to all humans of a | particular society or country? | | More advanced human rights just simply means more fair | human rights, it has nothing to do with chronology or | recency. There are plenty of examples of countries that | had more advanced human rights in the past and regressed | and made things worse over time. | | Easy example: Russia had much better human rights for | LGBT community not so long ago, however, it has regressed | and gotten much worse over last 10-15 years. | liamdgray wrote: | If you mean better, why not just say better? Using the | word advanced implies that "progress" is monotonic, but | you just gave an example of how it isn't. Some | regressions may have seemed like advances at the time. We | should probably just refer to "changes." | failwhaleshark wrote: | I'm definitely misunderstood but most humans don't want to | understand that. I'm going to try shaking my head and licking | my ears less. | iscrewyou wrote: | Actual study: | https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mam.12268 ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-08-05 23:00 UTC)