[HN Gopher] ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that ma...
___________________________________________________________________
ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make
semiconductors
Author : deegles
Score : 336 points
Date : 2021-08-22 16:16 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| greenfellowman wrote:
| I was bullish on Cymer back in the mid to late 90s. The stock did
| nothing (well maybe doubled) until ASML bought the m, perhaps
| then doubling the stock price. I was so frustrated because
| Cymer's light source was the enabler of smaller and faster chips.
| Anyone have a theory why Cymer never had a great ROI, compared to
| other equipment makers? Nikon and Cannon were already enormous,
| and Applied Materials, KLA-tencore, and others were already big
| and faced competition.
| dharma1 wrote:
| What's next after EUV? X-ray?
| relaxing wrote:
| There are a few candidates including X-rays. There's still
| plenty of gains to be made in EUV technology before we get
| there though.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-generation_lithography
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| I was thinking that it's inefficient to transport equipment from
| the Netherlands to mostly Asia, but any place they'd be located
| would be importing part from around the world. And the cost to
| ship one of these things is probably a rounding error in the
| price.
|
| It'd be interesting for them to partner with Antonov to build a
| second An-225. Maybe the economics would make sense instead of
| needing to ship via multiple 747s.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-225_Mriya
| qeternity wrote:
| I think you answered your own question: 747s are a stable,
| mature platform. Shipping is a rather insignificant cost, so it
| doesn't make sense to take risks unnecessarily.
| FlorianRappl wrote:
| ASML is a great company. What should be stressed is that the
| lenses are coming from Zeiss SMT, which is a strategic partner of
| ASML since 1997. In fact, they are so important that ASML bought
| a significant part of the Carl Zeiss subsidiary some years ago.
| You can't get a pretty good video about the relationship and EUV
| at: https://www.zeiss.com/semiconductor-manufacturing-
| technology...
| Keyframe wrote:
| Schott (glass) / Zeiss (lens) combo is extremely important in a
| lot of industries. Most people probably heard about them
| through photography or spectacles.
| royjacobs wrote:
| Ah yes, ASML. I have a number of friends and ex-colleagues who
| work there. Unsurprisingly, due to their importance, ASML are
| extremely well-known inside of the Netherlands. It's one of those
| companies that spun out of Philips Electronics and became very
| successful (NXP is another good example).
|
| A lot of research and development is still going on in the area
| where Philips had their research labs. If you're curious to see
| what kind of high-tech is being worked on in the "Dutch silicon
| valley" I suggest you Google "Brainport Eindhoven" or "High Tech
| Campus Eindhoven".
| as1mov wrote:
| Kinda off-topic but what's it like working at ASML? They are
| hiring for a lot of software roles at the moment. I've been
| mulling about applying there but from the outside it looks very
| bureaucratic (at least that's what the Glassdoor reviews seem
| to indicate).
| br4m wrote:
| As someone who currently works there it is indeed
| bureaucratic. But I also feel like it is an environment that
| focuses less on cost/money and optimizes for the highest
| quality. I.e., there is room to explore the best way of doing
| something and there is less pressure to do it ASAP or for the
| lowest price.
| as1mov wrote:
| Ah fair enough, thanks for the insight. I've worked in a
| heavily regulated domain for the past few years and just
| wanted a change to something different. Perhaps I'll still
| give it a shot if nothing else turns up.
| megablast wrote:
| So, just like any rich company really.
| nzmsv wrote:
| No, companies can be rich and still have a culture of
| cutting corners and rushing stuff to market.
| whazor wrote:
| It really is. The machines are highly sophisticated and
| downtime is very costly. Code bases are heavily documented
| and have a bureaucratic process to protect them. ASML does
| have less crucial software projects that have a more normal
| process.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| Some of the jobs look pretty cool, can you share what is
| the salary range to be expected? The website is silent
| about that, which in Europe almost always means
| underwhelming numbers.
| teekert wrote:
| Of course you will just get help when you get cancer and
| homeless people get help when they need it. It takes some
| money away from the higher paying jobs, and may make the
| salary underwhelming compared to the US. But then again,
| you won't need a million dollar house in the right
| neighborhood to get your kids into a decent school.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| The US has taxes too (and their government does plenty of
| throwing money at things.) And many companies there still
| pay for health insurance. I think this argument doesn't
| really make sense: taxes or other costs of doing business
| don't sufficiently explain the difference in pay.
| teekert wrote:
| The wealth gap is a lot bigger in the US and here you can
| walk into a hospital even when you're homeless and leave
| debt free. Anyone can apply for social security of about
| 1000 eur/month. People are only homeless when they have
| mental issues preventing them from following the steps to
| get them out and they can get help at any point. This is
| pretty different from the US.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I don't disagree with what you wrote but I don't
| understand what it has to do with differences in software
| engineer salaries between the US and the Netherlands.
| whazor wrote:
| I have heard they pay in the higher end of Dutch
| companies, which is still underwhelming especially
| compared to FAANG.
| [deleted]
| mark_mart wrote:
| Yes they pay pretty well. 13 salary, instead 12.(travel
| bonus)
| zoover2020 wrote:
| Check Blind
| mark_mart wrote:
| I am a contractor who works for them, but have lots of
| friends working as direct employee. (Netherlands,
| software engineer mostly)
|
| They pay you 12+1 salaries (1=you get half of your salary
| as bonus 2 times per year, as vacation bonus).
|
| You get 40 days of vacation (Netherlands has 25 days of
| vacation standard, %99 of companies)so people are very
| relaxed.
|
| ASML is able relocate you from another country, moving
| all your house (I think it was up to EUR5.000 costs).
| Bringing family etc. They show you around city, assign a
| guide to explore city, help for municipality stuff etc.
|
| They also give a temporary (2months) accommodation until
| you find a place, or until they move your house.
|
| They always hire because they are growing all the time.
|
| They have people working since 20 years or even 25 years.
|
| To me, frankly, it's like the Google of the Netherlands,
| because some people try to get hired by them and retire
| there. It's a good company in my experience.
| Dma54rhs wrote:
| They pay much better in USA where they also hire. SE
| salaries are obviously a lot smaller in Europe, thinking
| about FAAMG numbers is fairytales :)
| saddlerustle wrote:
| Optiver hires in Amsterdam with comparable compensation
| to top US companies.
| Avalaxy wrote:
| Unrelated to this thread, but I always found 'optiver'
| such a weird name for a Dutch company. Sounds to me like
| "optiefer". "Optiefen" is a Dutch way of saying "fuck
| off".
| sabas123 wrote:
| Optiver works in a vastly different and super tiny sector
| (in employee count) which is renowned for having higher
| salaries than any other sector (including tech) and is a
| massive outlier.
| teekert wrote:
| I applied there, they asked me what I would do if there was
| too much work for the week. Of course I answered I would just
| work nights, np. No, they said: Go to your team lead tell
| her/him you can do one thing and discuss what to choose. They
| don't want people getting burned out, they are too important.
| I liked that.
| N1H1L wrote:
| My major background is in electron microscopy. Eindhoven is
| also a massively important microscopy center. This is because
| Philips used to build great TEMs once upon a time, which was
| spun out as Philips Electron Optics in the mid 90s.
|
| That company merged with FEI of Portland, OR to become one of
| the largest electron microscope company. FEI a few years back
| was bought out ThermoFisher to become a group company. They
| still command a huge portion of the electron microscopy market.
| orangepanda wrote:
| Shame seeing Twitter going the way of pinterest.
|
| I'll assume the rest of the thread is just as informative.
| c_hagau wrote:
| Clearing the twitter.com cookie worked for me.
| _Microft wrote:
| Here it is:
| https://nitter.net/trungtphan/status/1429464889307762688
| hobs wrote:
| I genuinely dont understand this comment - twitter is already
| pretty noisy - why would it "go in the way of pinterest"?
| seedless-sensat wrote:
| You need to login to show the whole thread. I hit the same
| wall. Twitter was already a terrible medium for these kinds
| of posts, now it just got worse.
| hollerith wrote:
| I didn't need to log in: I got the rest of the thread by
| following the link "see rest of this thread". That link
| though is easy to miss, what with being somewhere mid-page
| and being surrounded by elements that are visually much
| louder, and I, too, wish that no one here would submit or
| upvote links to Twitter.
| as1mov wrote:
| Twitter seems to be doing some kind of A/B testing.
| Clicking the "See rest of this thread", pops up a login
| window, which on being closed takes you back to the
| initial page.
| COGlory wrote:
| Yes, but we all know where this inevitably goes. See
| Instagram, Reddit, Facebook, Pinterest, etc
| hobs wrote:
| Ah, thank you that makes more sense.
| sbarre wrote:
| Someone posted a third-party thread-unroll link elsewhere
| in the discussion, I don't think that required a login?
| hedberg10 wrote:
| Twitter should not be an allowed source.
|
| Same with Pinterest in image search or Instagram.
| nabakin wrote:
| If you open the link you click in a new tab, you can get past
| it.
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| Herein is described the most convenient manner to generate the
| precise wavelength of light required to print on EUV photomask:
|
| - A molten tin droplet drops into a vacuum
|
| - It's pulsed by a high-power (25kW) laser
|
| - Tin atoms are ionized, creating plasma
|
| - A precision ground concave mirror captures EUV radiation
| emitted by plasma
|
| - The Mirror transfers EUV to wafer (wavelength=13.5 nanometers,
| basically X-ray level, through a series of reducing lenses...)
| sharken wrote:
| Seems like quite a risk to only have one company provide these
| machines.
|
| Semiconductor companies seem to follow the same trend, the major
| contributing factor seems to be the patent portfolio needed to
| secure cross-licensing deals.
|
| It looks like patents are actively preventing new companies in
| the semiconductor business.
| hughrr wrote:
| I think the extreme cost and risk to enter the business is the
| key issue.
| cadence- wrote:
| Sounds like something governments could help with.
| hughrr wrote:
| Indeed. Only time that happened was in East Germany and it
| didn't work out too good.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| That wasn't the only time.
| Bootvis wrote:
| It's quite a bit more nuanced. I recommend reading some
| work by Mariana Mazzucato to get some perspective.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=mariana%20mazzucato
| cinntaile wrote:
| Which book would you recommend?
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| Start with "The Value of Everything" [1], then "The
| Entrepreneurial State".
|
| [1]:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23890312
| Bootvis wrote:
| I saw her present her book "The Entrepreneurial State"
| and read it. It made me look at public and private R&D
| investments in a new way.
| hughrr wrote:
| It's really not. The cost of production was too high
| compared to other markets which reduced demand. Which is
| exactly what happens with all government projects.
| arp242 wrote:
| There are a number of companies that can produce
| lithography machines, just not on the same level as ASML
| (at the moment anyway). Even if we ignore any patent/IP and
| upfront investment issues, designing and actually
| constructing machines which are on par with ASML's is not
| an easy task and will take years of research, assuming the
| project succeeds in the first place. What ASML is doing now
| is the culmination of years of research and investment and
| some pretty specific know-how. It's kind of like trying to
| replicate NASA's James Webb telescope project: many of the
| basic principles aren't very hard, but actually building
| the thing is.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| That, and upfront investment costs. Very few companies have a
| few spare billion to pour into setting up the infrastructure,
| plus deal with resource deals, regulations, politics etc.. I'm
| pretty sure that a lot of countries would prefer to be a bit
| more independent on the semiconductor side, but getting up and
| running is hard.
|
| > It looks like patents are actively preventing new companies
| in the semiconductor business.
|
| As far as I know, the really deep technology on the CPUs is
| actually not patented - it would be nearly impossible to
| reverse engineer or proof an infringement, but you'd need to
| reveal your methodology to file the patent in the first place.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Yeah they have trade secrets. Patents are nice and all, but
| good luck sueing in China. Even if you win, it'll be a one-
| time fee
| jbay808 wrote:
| Canon and Nikon make similar machines too, but they've lost
| market share ever since ASML released their dual scan system.
| And at the moment EUV doesn't appear to be a mature enough
| market to support competitors.
| Someone wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_second_law: _"the cost
| of a semiconductor chip fabrication plant doubles every four
| years"_
|
| I can't find it, but I've seen people extrapolate that to
| compute when there would be room for only one fab in the world.
| Seems we're there for one part of a fab.
| jokoon wrote:
| This law is really cancelled by Wirth's law
| Beldin wrote:
| Indeed. I've heard that there was a lead time of about 12
| years on the EUV machines at ASML. I had a tour of one off
| their facilities once (generic recruitment thingy). Back in
| early 2000s they were working to correct for errors where
| _the margin of error on their error detector_ was greater
| than the error that needed correcting.
|
| (The wave length used was about an order of magnitude greater
| than the lirhography result; I have no recollection of how
| they claimed to handle that.)
|
| They are pushing the boundaries of what's possible, using
| incredibly long lead times. I don't see how any start-up can
| compete with that, even in the absence of patents.
| Throwawayaerlei wrote:
| > The wave length used was about an order of magnitude
| greater than the lirhography result; I have no recollection
| of how they claimed to handle that.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_patterning and it's
| pretty insane.
| rdxm wrote:
| heh. just now figuring this out? that's good...
| rivo wrote:
| A few highlights from a conversation with a friend who works for
| Zeiss and regularly deals with ASML (take this with a grain of
| salt, I may have misunderstood some of it and he also may not be
| an expert in all of these areas):
|
| - The lenses (actually mirrors for EUV) only demagnify by a
| factor of 4. So your wafer template is already extremely small
| and costs millions to produce.
|
| - 13.5nm is pretty much the smallest wavelength you can
| reasonably handle. If you want to go smaller, you have to build a
| particle accelerator. (He heard that from a colleague, wasn't
| sure how much of that was actually true.)
|
| - The prices in this Twitter thread are pretty spot on. The EU
| wants to invest into chip making to become more independent in
| this area. But the sums they're talking about wouldn't even pay
| for one such machine. Politicians don't seem to be aware of the
| dimensions we're talking about here.
|
| - Also in the thread, ASML has a monopoly on this tech. Others
| have not invested into EUV and by now, it's pretty much
| impossible for anybody to catch up.
|
| - Everyone's hiring like crazy atm. He started home office during
| Covid and now Zeiss says he can't even go back to the office
| because they don't have enough office space anymore. He doesn't
| mind. Everyone's distributed all over the place anyway so whether
| he does conference calls at the office or at home makes no
| difference.
|
| - He said they're not very affected by the chip shortage.
| BenoitP wrote:
| > - He said they're not very affected by the chip shortage.
|
| You bet! TSMC/Intel/Samsung must give them for free; also give
| them the first of each batch they make, as samples to be
| analyzed.
| natdempk wrote:
| Mirror:
| https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429464889307762688.html
| wombatmobile wrote:
| How ASML Builds a $150 Million EUV Machine
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJIO7aRXUCg
| sev wrote:
| Do these machines not need semiconductors to function?
| codeulike wrote:
| First heard of ASML on here last year, in a comment where someone
| described their EUV machine as the most complex machine ever
| built, droplets of molten lead vaporized in a vacuum by
| microscopically precise laser pulses, the resulting plasma beamed
| by intricate mirrors onto miniscule wafers...
|
| Its fascinating how everyone relies on TSMC in South Korea, but
| they rely on ASML in the Netherlands and no-one will catch up
| with ASML for decades. Does that make ASML the most strategically
| important company ever? Has there ever been any artifact so
| important and scarce as their machines?
| xxpor wrote:
| I feel like ASML is the company that almost everyone who would
| care has heard of at this point. Granted, I hadn't heard of them
| 3 years ago, even though I work directly with HW designers.
|
| Its just funny how they're going through the hype cycle in their
| level of public awareness. Give it 3 years and (hopefully) the
| "general public" won't have to care about them again, because
| chip shortages are resolved :)
| ren_engineer wrote:
| ASML will matter for decades unless a competitor surpasses
| them. US is already blocking them from exporting to China
|
| https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-wants-a-chip-machine-from...
|
| the company is probably as important as TSMC in terms of
| geopolitics now
| analyst74 wrote:
| > US is already blocking them from exporting to China
|
| This might actually be a good thing for China. In a
| "necessity is the root of invention" kinda way. Ultimately
| this might be good to the world too, competition is generally
| a good thing.
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| This is true in general. In this case, however, there are
| no efforts I am aware of in the industry that can catch
| them. Their technological lead is so great, in so many
| subsystem and science areas, it's likely they will be
| defacto monopoly in this space for 20 years.
| ren_engineer wrote:
| China flat out bribing, kidnapping or blackmailing ASML
| employees seems perfectly viable. Or sneaking operatives
| into ASML to steal trade secrets. China is the best in
| the world at this and they now have huge incentive to try
| even harder
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| They will not be able to steal enough technology, nor
| will they be able to manage the organization that
| reproduces it.
| analyst74 wrote:
| I wouldn't consider higher wage for engineers and
| scientists the same as bribing. I mean, one of silicone
| valleys key strength is the ability for companies to
| poach from competitors in order to catch up, this cross
| pollination of ideas is both beneficial to the industry
| AND individuals.
| erichocean wrote:
| > _US is already blocking them from exporting to China_
|
| Which works until China invades Taiwan. Then what?
| mixedCase wrote:
| Aren't fabs already rigged with explosives in case of
| invasion?
| qorrect wrote:
| Is this a real thing ?
| Throwawayaerlei wrote:
| Normal SOP is to keep the explosives, which do have
| shelf-lives, in a magazine a short distance from where
| they need to be emplaced. Perhaps look up how they Swiss
| routinely included niches in bridges and the like to
| place them in case of invasion.
| cbozeman wrote:
| "rigged with explosives" is likely a bit of an
| exaggeration.
|
| It would not be difficult to conduct a campus-wide
| evacuation then have the Taiwanese Air Force destroy the
| facility with targeted weapons. It might also be the case
| that the facility's precise coordinates are well-known to
| Taiwanese military's artillery units and the entire place
| could be reduced to rubble in minutes.
| wonnage wrote:
| blowing up the fabs definitely won't help with the supply
| situation
| Gys wrote:
| The US (supposedly?) blocked ASML from exporting its
| machines to China. ASML is a Dutch company.
| ijidak wrote:
| Ha. Tell that to all of Europe.
|
| Because so much trade is done in dollars. And because
| companies globally want access to U.S. financial markets,
| money transfer systems, companies and markets, the U.S.
| has the ability to tell even foreign companies what to
| do.
|
| That's why Europe was frustrated when Trump reinstated
| sanctions on Iran. And had to try to figure out ways of
| bypassing them.
| (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.voanews.com/middle-
| east/voa...)
|
| The U.S. has incredible, unexpected power over global
| companies and trade.
| lokimedes wrote:
| ASML may rely on ITAR / dual use parts they enables
| export control by the US. Or, the US is simply applying a
| diplomatic squeeze on the Netherlands.
| Throwawayaerlei wrote:
| Last time I checked the lasers come from California, from
| a company that ASML ended up buying.
| PabloRobles wrote:
| Cymer (acquired by ASML) is the company providing the 13
| nm light sources for the EUV machines of ASML.
| khuey wrote:
| The original EUV research was done in US government labs.
| another_story wrote:
| Then what? Probably a fight that will result in one of the
| greatest blows to the global economy ever, as well as the
| collapse of China as we know it today.
|
| The Taiwanese will destroy all the fabs before China can
| take them. We already have a chip shortage, can you imagine
| what it will be like to cut current supplies by another
| 40-50%? The resulting sanctions alone would cripple China.
|
| Hence, status quo will remain, and Taiwan will continue to
| be a prop for nationalist speeches in China and the US
| defense industry will continue to make a mint off selling
| them old gear.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| If China invaded Taiwan then US companies would have a
| hard time moving manufacturing outside of China so maybe
| demand for semiconductors would go down. The problem
| would just be the supply of everything downstream falling
| off a cliff.
| cbozeman wrote:
| Then what? That isn't hard to figure out.
|
| If China invades Taiwan before enough TSMC plants are built
| in America to meet American, and by extension - Western -
| demand for electronics, then it's war. Period, end of
| story.
|
| There is no fucking way in any timeline in any alternate
| universe that Western electronics companies can allow China
| to put their businesses on hold, because it isn't just a
| bunch of AMD and Qualcomm CPUs... it's every automotive
| company in the Western world. It's every appliance
| manufacturer in the Western world _PLUS_ South Korea.
|
| China will go right back to 1820. Damn near dead fucking
| last on the world stage.
|
| The Communist party leadership would probably kill Xi
| Jinping before allowing him to make such a monumental
| mistake. And nuclear war isn't an option either, because
| all of China will end up completely uninhabitable if even a
| single major American city gets targeted.
|
| And it won't just be "America vs. China" either, it'll be
| "Every Western nation vs. China". And China will lose.
| Badly.
| mcv wrote:
| Or it works until China develops their own.
| philjohn wrote:
| Seeing as you need ASML people to run these effectively,
| maintain them, repair them - I'm guessing we will see a
| massive global semiconductor shortage if China invades that
| makes this year look like a cakewalk.
| wrycoder wrote:
| They can probably shut them off remotely. Also, some high
| end CAM equipment is geofenced. They are only licensed
| for one location.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| As if a geolocation cannot be falsified :)
| tomp wrote:
| Can geolocation easily be falsified? Sure you can _jam_
| GPS, but can you easily _falsify_ it?
|
| I'm not an expert, but I was surprised to learn that GPS
| chips aren't as simple as I imagined. E.g. to get a
| "normal" (civilian I guess) licence you have to
| manufacture your chips so that they shut down if the
| object is moving too quickly (otherwise it could be used
| for missiles).
| ren_engineer wrote:
| America pays the price for its short sighted hubris chasing
| profits and thinking we could turn China into a liberal
| democracy if we threw enough money at them
| secondcoming wrote:
| Tomahawk time for the fabs
| Kye wrote:
| All it takes is someone figuring out how to do the same thing
| without all the specialized parts or bulk. That's the main
| cost. This is the way of tech: it starts expensive, full of
| specialized parts that only a few suppliers produce, then
| someone figures out how to do it cheaper.
|
| At $1B a pop + 50% for lifetime maintenance, the incentive is
| there.
| lumost wrote:
| The problem with semi is that they will move to a machine
| that costs 2 billion a pop within 2 years. The output of
| this 2 billion dollar machine will be greater than the cost
| increase.
|
| Semi is heading to a winner take all market based on
| capital expenditure. Even TSMC can't afford to in house the
| work ASML does and keep pace with new developments.
| xxpor wrote:
| Thinking about it more, I don't think I'd even heard of TSMC
| until 2014 or 2015. Not entirely sure.
| bserge wrote:
| Not only TSMC, a lot of companies were just "the cheap Asian
| factories mass producing our stuff" a decade ago, and even 6
| years ago.
|
| Then they came out and said "you know what, we can do fine
| without you", to western shocked Pikachu faces.
| rapsey wrote:
| So what does TSMC then do that no one else can replicate if they
| use these machines?
| woudsma wrote:
| Apparently the machines are pretty hard to replicate, the
| company (ASML) has had to deal with a couple of corporate
| espionage cases in the past[0].
|
| [0]: https://nos.nl/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-chinese-
| overheid... (in Dutch)
| rapsey wrote:
| What I meant was TSMC uses these machines. Anyone else
| (except the Chinese I guess?) can also use these machines.
| What is the TSMC secret sauce that no one else can match?
| Keyframe wrote:
| It's one (well, few) step of the process, albeit probably
| the most important.
| treme wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loiltpe6q-s&t=3s
|
| fantastic channel that goes in depth on chip industry
| Stevvo wrote:
| Think of these machines as being what a paint brush is to
| an artist; it's just a tool. Anyone can buy a paintbrush,
| but it takes much skill and experience to paint a
| masterpiece.
|
| Even if you have a masterpiece in your possession to try
| and copy, you will fail.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| It's not a single thing, it's everything. State of the art
| fabs require precision control of an incredible number of
| process steps each with an incredible number of tunable
| dimensions. These machines are just one piece of the
| puzzle. A key piece, but buying the machines does not a fab
| make.
| wonnage wrote:
| Semiconductor manufacturing seems to have a very big
| winner-takes-all advantage, it takes enormous amounts of
| capital and 3-5 years to start a new fab, and the
| incumbents own a complicated web of secrets and patents
| that are basically impossible to navigate.
| tpmx wrote:
| Peripheral knowledge (worked in Taiwan earlier):
|
| I suspect the following might be a big part of the secret
| sauce:
|
| a) Having a culture where EE work is more prestigeous than
| software work, leading to smart people going there.
|
| b) Having spent decades on scaling up the national university
| system for engineering educations, starting from the 80s
| electronics design/manufacturing boom.
|
| c) Having a low salary level, internationally speaking.
|
| The combination of a large, smart and affordable work force for
| something like this is pretty hard to beat.
| ren_engineer wrote:
| just having a fancy computer doesn't make somebody a great
| programmer
| nabla9 wrote:
| TSMC and Samsung are two companies that have competitive
| technology node in EUV (Intel struggling).
|
| It means they have invented ways to use these machines to print
| extremely small transistors and that are fast, energy efficient
| and have good yield (less failures in the process).
| bazooka_penguin wrote:
| The lithography is just a step of the process. I'm just a
| layman but there's a lot of chemistry involved in just the
| processing of materials like coating and etching the wafers,
| particle bombardment, etc. Even the conditions and environment
| in which the lithography is done makes a big difference.
| Fronzie wrote:
| Calibration and following working procedures. The lithography
| machines have endless knobs to tune. It has to be done well to
| get a decent yield out of a factory.
| rapsey wrote:
| Seems a bit simplified...
| s1291 wrote:
| Fortunately, I have heard of ASML a few days ago thanks to this
| video: https://youtu.be/hLwGtucsTms?t=1099
| cushychicken wrote:
| ASML's first EUV machine contract closure was for $15 bil, and
| the contract explicitly stipulated that $3bil was just for the
| purpose of acquiring three specialty Boeing 747s for shipping the
| machines to the clients.
|
| Each chunk of the machine must be shipped in vacuum. It takes
| about 40 chunks to make a complete EUV lithography machine. Each
| is about the equivalent mass of a school bus.
| pas wrote:
| Why the need for special 747s? Can't they put each chunk into a
| shipping container sized steel box and seal it vacuum tight,
| then ship that with regular 747s?
| sroussey wrote:
| Size issues.
|
| If I remember correctly, the machines are designed to fit the
| plane and vis-a-versa. So they will be smaller on top to fit
| the curvature of the plane body, for example
| doikor wrote:
| Splitting some of the parts into smaller parts will expose
| the insides to outside air which brings some serious
| cleanliness issues. The mirrors especially will get destroyed
| instantly by heat if there is any dirt on them when they are
| flashed by EUV.
| sangnoir wrote:
| I suspect their equipment is susceptible to vibrations on a
| regular 747. I bet most of what makes their 747's special is
| dampening. Also, packing and unpacking the equipment
| increases the chance of things going wrong.
| dataflow wrote:
| Can someone explain why Intel needs TSMC to make their chips? Why
| can't they just buy ASML's machines and use them to make their
| own chips?
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| Fabs are just a wee bit more complicated than buy the machine
| and plug it in. Everything is very tightly integrated under
| insanely precise requirements. Changing equipment is akin to
| redesigning and reconstructing a non trivial portion of the
| fab. And that's just integrating these lithography machines,
| which are but one piece of a huge puzzle.
| dataflow wrote:
| I don't think I suggested otherwise. But it's not like Intel
| wouldn't have the capability of running ASML machines if it
| wanted to, is it?
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| Yes. But it will take a non trivial amount of time for them
| to change course, and they could still stumble on any
| number of other issues on the integration.
| superjan wrote:
| IIRC They have bought some but they were hesitant to depend on
| what was then unproven technology. Intel thought they could
| achieve smaller chips using the previous generation's
| technology.
| jgab wrote:
| One aspect is meeting the overlay and CD targets throughout the
| stack to meet yield. Having a process that can find defects and
| more importantly practices to minimize the defects in your
| process is a big piece. Typically the process given to mass
| production would be only half solved and then the fab is trying
| to refine it in ramp.
|
| I used to manage a fab of high end ASML tools and there is a
| non trivial list of things to continue and solve. You have
| reliability issues that require scheduling long (2-5 weeks)
| downtime to fix.
|
| An upstream defectively issue in a spinner tool might lead to
| taking one dispense or develop node out of flow to improve the
| defect rate but in turn tank the Scanner efficiency by 40% as
| it waits to output wafers and that backs up the imaging. The
| reality is the ASML tools given to fans don't have everything
| ironed out at rhe start. So fabs see the reliability issues in
| real time but there's no time for the fab to take it out of
| production for 3 months to address a major part replacement.
| These all lead managers to make bad choices that continue to
| dig you in a hole.
|
| At the time I was supporting 14nm it was well known TSMC had
| world class software tools and practices to minimize their fabs
| defects and maximize higher order control of overlay and CD
| bias. This allows them greater flexibility to take a tool down
| and fix the issues rather than live with them or have to use a
| band aid.
|
| EdiT: I did not work at intel so can only speculate why they
| are behind but it was also well known TSMC photo engineers were
| worked 80+ hrs/week always . They were paid less so they hired
| more of them and they worked a lot longer so as a result they
| had better fab processes and support tools.
| dataflow wrote:
| Thank you!
| doikor wrote:
| The lithography machines are just one part of a very complex
| machine that is a semiconductor fabrication facility. So
| basically they failed in one of the many other things.
| moonbas3 wrote:
| Intel already has a fab which makes it's own chips. They can
| print, their problem is the design process on smaller nodes.
| Throwawayaerlei wrote:
| A bit on how this played out: what they call their first 10nm
| node which in its third iteration has been named Intel 7 was
| more aggressive than TSMC's first 7 nm node, and failed for
| many years to economically produce chips. Both use 193 nm UV
| lithography, and then TSMC made a more aggressive than
| Intel's node using some EUV from ASML, and both TSMC nodes
| worked.
|
| Now TSMC is two major nodes ahead with 3 nm risk production
| credibly scheduled for this year and mass production next
| year, with Intel said to be buying a _lot_ of that. What was
| Intel 's still delayed 7 nm node, the first to use EUV, is
| now named Intel 4. I've not looked at it closely, but it
| looks like something equivalent to TSMC 3 nm nodes is
| scheduled as Intel 20A for angstrom and 18A, sometime in 2024
| and 2025.
|
| I have yet to see anything that convinces me Intel will
| regain its ability to make state of the art logic chips,
| which for many generations was one of their most important
| advantages, allowing them to beat "smarter" CPU designs with
| their own CPUs being manufactured 1-2 nodes ahead of everyone
| else. It will be interesting if some day the true story of
| how this happened is revealed.
| dataflow wrote:
| I know they have had fabs, but they decided to go with TSMC
| recently, and that's what I was wondering about. Going with
| TSMC doesn't mean TSMC does their designs too, does it?
| timwaagh wrote:
| They weren't very fast at buying those machines. TSMC bought
| more.
| jgab wrote:
| Incorrect ASML sold the first 15 to intel in 2015
|
| https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-orders-
| idUSK...
| sneak wrote:
| Twitter won't show complete threads now without an account. :(
|
| Twitter accounts basically de facto require a phone number, or
| they get suspended.
| throwaway61223 wrote:
| You can replace twitter.com w/nitter.eu to see things.
| https://nitter.eu/trungtphan/status/1429464889307762688
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| This isn't true at all. I just double checked and you can view
| the thread logged out no problem. Twitter's UI is admittedly
| garbo so depending when you clicked on the thread you may have
| needed to click an expand link.
| pritambaral wrote:
| It's not consistent across loads, but I do get it some times.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| It's intermittent. I've got the wall and then loaded it in
| incognito. A/B testing?
| bserge wrote:
| Oh it's worse, it's location dependent. Developed countries
| have more limited access, which is kinda ironic.
| laurensr wrote:
| You may have a more enjoyable reading experience using the
| nitter frontend:
| https://nitter.net/TrungTPhan/status/1429464889307762688#m
| hiram112 wrote:
| Yep, I feel bad for many of the less technical "rubes" who
| still believe they're somewhat anonymous on the internet if
| they, e.g. use Incognito (which Google went out of their way to
| market as such), or buy some dubious VPN service, or use
| disposable emails on Reddit, Twitter, etc. accounts.
|
| You are simply not anonymous on any site you visit or search
| you make or place you go with your phone. The tech giants and
| their "data sharing partners" can correlate you a dozen ways,
| and most of that is by design via "features" like JS APIs and
| browser data that is included in every request.
|
| Those of us paying attention know that Twitter, Reddit, Google,
| FB, and the rest will turn over your real ID to law
| enforcement, no questions asked.
|
| And it won't be long now 'till some conservative whistle blower
| from Google or Twitter leaks the proof that the tech giants -
| via the more politically inclined activists and operatives who
| now work in their executive offices - have created blacklists
| which are used to ensure no wrong-thinkers (e.g. Trump
| supporters) are hired or employed at their own companies. And
| then it will be leaked that these same blacklists were traded
| and sold off to their "partners", and are being used for
| similar purposes in all of corporate America.
|
| And from there, we know how this story ends, though I'm not
| sure the activists enabling it understand that things won't
| turn out well for them either.
| shadilay wrote:
| I think it's a matter of the data lords not yet playing their
| hand. We know they have this data but they haven't used it
| yet in any high profile case. They're just still in the
| extend phase.
| nick__m wrote:
| It doesn't, sure you'll get suspended alright, but you can
| appeal and get unlocked if you persistently tell that you don't
| have a cellphone.
|
| Which in my case is true, and yes I know I sounds like that
| guy: https://www.theonion.com/area-man-constantly-mentioning-
| he-d... ;)
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