[HN Gopher] Burning Out and Quitting
___________________________________________________________________
Burning Out and Quitting
Author : czottmann
Score : 369 points
Date : 2021-08-25 20:48 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (mayakaczorowski.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (mayakaczorowski.com)
| markdjacobsen wrote:
| This is a powerful piece that resonates with my own experience. I
| went through a period of severe burnout that took me a couple
| years to recover from. One of my later insights was that burnout
| doesn't merely entail working too much (although that's certainly
| part of it); burnout often involves pouring too much of your
| heart and soul into something that does not love you back. I
| describe burnout now as a kind of "unrequited love."
|
| So many of us go above and beyond for our
| companies/projects/teams/whatever. The author here describes
| overcommitting at work. We might have the best of intentions, but
| at some point, we don't see the returns we yearned for and start
| to question what all this self-sacrificial giving is for. That is
| when burnout really sets in. I've had friends burn out while
| working for hostile or indifferent managers, startups that are
| trending the wrong direction, companies that engage in illegal or
| unethical behavior, etc.
|
| A second insight was that burnout can play a positive role in our
| lives. It's like a circuit breaker that trips to protect us from
| a damaging situation. When we feel burnout coming on, it's a
| warning to pay attention to an important misalignment in our
| lives.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| This has been my experience. I have simply learned to look for
| emotional fulfillment and creative output elsewhere in my life
| and am far happier for it. I find I'm actually a lot better at
| my job when I have some distance from it. It allows me to
| connect with people -- even at work -- on a human level because
| I don't particularly care about my actual work and basically
| forget about it as soon as I stand up from my desk.
| Areading314 wrote:
| This reminds me of some advice I got from a grad student as
| an undergrad -- "It's important to not care TOO much when
| doing research. Most things don't work out the way you expect
| and you'll always be disappointed or even biased when you are
| looking at your data."
| nemo44x wrote:
| I've seen it in the field as pouring your heart and soul into
| something and it did love you back but the supreme goal was
| achieved so it's difficult to continue. You're just sort of
| detached from it all since you got to the top of the mountain
| and there's nowhere to go but down. There just isn't the space
| to continue doing it like it was and it burns you out. You can
| only look back on that moment there were love streams.
|
| _ "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back
| ceaselessly into the past."_
|
| I guess you're right though in that in the end it will never
| love you back. The wheel must continue to turn.
| nvarsj wrote:
| I had my first experience with real burnout a few years ago. I
| took my first fully remote job at a completely dysfunctional
| company. It was a very frustrating experience.
|
| Unfortunately, I didn't have the luxury of taking time off like
| the author here. That is really the best option if you can manage
| it, but most people can't.
|
| In my case, I quit my job and went somewhere I knew would be a
| bit easier, and looked forward to the office life again. Then the
| pandemic hit and I ended up fully remote, yet again. So it didn't
| really help at all (I really, really missed being around people).
| I spent a year and half basically just winging it. It's hard to
| talk about because I still feel pretty ashamed about my
| performance. Some days were just a matter of sheer willpower to
| force my brain to do anything at all.
|
| I am slowly coming out of it finally and feeling a lot better.
| Swapping projects to something more interesting helped a lot. I'm
| still far from 100%, but getting there.
| bob229 wrote:
| Your first mistake was working more than a 9-5. Never ever do
| that
| ternaryoperator wrote:
| As developers, I think we've all had similar experiences to
| greater or lesser degree. But also as developers, we generally
| earn enough to be able to take time off.
|
| This is why when I read about single mothers working multiple
| jobs to raise their children, my admiration and respect run very
| deep. They just don't have any option to recover from burn-out.
| Ansil849 wrote:
| > I was recently unemployed - fortunately, by choice
|
| This just comes off as the equivalent of saying:
|
| > I recently had to to fly somewhere - fortunately, by private
| jet
|
| The privilege and wealth requisite to be able to do either of
| these things just make it unrelatable.
| shrimpx wrote:
| One is far more relatable than the other. You can be
| temporarily unemployed by choice with a few thousand in
| savings.
| Ansil849 wrote:
| Yes, I was using exaggeration to get the point across that
| this is written from a position of privilege that many of us
| reading cannot afford.
| SamBam wrote:
| Of course plenty of people reading it cannot afford that,
| but that doesn't make it "unrelatable" to the rest of the
| HN readership.
|
| Lots of people in tech or programming fields can get paid
| >$80k per year. Spend some time at that salary, and be
| thrifty, and you can save up many thousands after a few
| years. Easily enough for a several-month cushion.
|
| No, not everyone can do this.
|
| But people here also write about their MacBook Pros, and
| many people can't afford those either. (Indeed, for the
| cost of a high-end MacBook Pro many people could afford to
| take a month or two off.)
| munk-a wrote:
| I understand that not every tech job is paying SV wages.
| For a while I was earning 60k CAD and was still able to
| save up a good chunk of change. One thing to bear in mind
| is that if you voluntarily take a stint of unemployment you
| should probably see your expenses go down a fair bit as
| you'll have time to cook from scratch more often and will
| probably go off daily expenses like coffee.
|
| Being able to voluntarily not work in your early twenties
| would be pretty spectacular - but once you start building a
| bit of a nest egg you should be able to afford short
| stints.
| Ansil849 wrote:
| > For a while I was earning 60k CAD and was still able to
| save up a good chunk of change.
|
| Also keep in mind that stateside, a giant portion of
| expenses you would have to take into account while
| unemployed are what you intend to do about health
| insurance.
| munk-a wrote:
| I think most folks assume that people in their twenties
| will just go without dental/vision/pharma in the US and
| grab a cheapo bronze tier plan off the ACA unless they
| have a preexisting condition that requires some regular
| treatment.
|
| I agree that the costs are higher in the US and it makes
| dealing with stress more difficult but... the US is a
| terrible place to be if absolutely anything is wrong with
| you - so assuming you could take a pleasant sabbatical
| there seems unwise. It'd almost certainly be cheaper to
| move overseas and pay whatever monthly fee the local
| government charges to temporarily enroll on their
| healthcare and it sucks - but, again, it's the US where
| healthcare is a stressful burden yall have to deal with -
| I was born there and emigrated and I've been quite happy
| myself.
| pessimizer wrote:
| But who actually cares? I don't understand the point of
| your objection. Are you saying that privileged people
| shouldn't talk to each other about their problems, because
| those conversations won't be relatable to people without
| those privileges? Should people who can walk never talk
| about walking because other people can't walk?
|
| That being said, it's definitely better for poor people to
| become unemployed against their will, because then they can
| get unemployment.
| eatonphil wrote:
| That's hard to do in the US if you don't plan on CORBA. I'm
| not full time employed at the moment and randomly broke my
| ankle trying to skateboard for the first time.
|
| The medical bills are 50k and counting. Thankfully my wife's
| insurance (she's working) fully covers this.
|
| I cannot imagine taking time off without any health insurance
| and the cost of CORBA is itself one or two thousand every
| month for two people.
|
| But if you're single and under 27 (where you can still fall
| back under your parents healthcare) things could be easier.
| boardwaalk wrote:
| Was a healthcare.gov plan not an option? I don't know how
| the coverage compares, but 1k-2k for 1-2 people seems like
| way more.
| eatonphil wrote:
| Well maybe I used it wrong. But it also seems to differ
| by state? The 1-2k/mo for two people was actually the
| quote I got through the NY exchange (which I think
| Healthcare.gov sent me to).
|
| The CORBA cost was even higher.
| shrimpx wrote:
| Yeah, health coverage can be tricky. I'm unemployed ("on
| sabbatical") and bought my own plan through healthcare.gov
| for about $12/day.
| flyinglizard wrote:
| They are very relatable to many around HN, which is tech-biased
| and therefore affluent in comparison to other groups. I also
| chose not to work for some time, so I relate very well. We
| don't always need to seek the poorest denominator. Well-off
| people have life experiences, too.
| jnwatson wrote:
| Plenty of working class folk take months off at a time.
|
| If you work in the movie business, that's pretty much required.
| losteric wrote:
| Unemployed by choice is an unfamiliar notion... but, on
| reflection, anyone with in-demand skills and sufficient savings
| does have that choice. Those two attributes should be quite
| common among this site's audience.
| browningstreet wrote:
| I dunno.
|
| Firstly, the privilege call-out isn't very functional here. So
| what? People aren't allowed to relate their experiential pain?
|
| Furthermore, at various stages of my life, I've taken 3 or 6 or
| 9 months off... all on my own, and either because I was living
| in a $300 apartment, or lived in a tent, or had just enough
| saved up for beans and my apartment. Not working for a while,
| because you've gotten just a few things sorted, isn't
| necessarily privilege or wealth -- sometimes it's actually
| poverty. Sometimes it's something else, and the story can still
| be listened to on its own merits.
| fernandopj wrote:
| Not equivalent, specially if you know what is like to suffer
| burnout.
|
| The choice becomes "either I willingly quit, or suicide starts
| to become attractive".
|
| Burnout is _strange_ because the person suffering reaches an
| unbearable state before the company complains about a lack of
| performance (to a point of firing them).
| ummonk wrote:
| He saved up that money by working in a job that pays a lot but
| induces burnout. It's not really all that much of a privilege.
| nonameiguess wrote:
| She has her resume on her site. She was only unemployed for
| four months. While I'm sure a lot of people can't afford that,
| it's a lot easier in the more common dual earner households
| these days. It took me about 7 months after leaving the Army
| before I finally accepted a job offer, and my wife ended up
| unemployed for 5 months a few years later. Both of those were
| possible because we had each other.
|
| Of course, I understand that is still a privilege many don't
| have, and this woman worked for McKinsey as her first job, so
| I'm sure she's making a lot more money than I am.
| WaylonKenning wrote:
| Like the tide slowly lapping away at your feet, the symptoms of
| burnout aren't noticeable until you're already waist deep, and
| then you can keep swimming, until suddenly your brain says, no
| thanks.
|
| I think that's the worst part, the fact that this burnout process
| is happening to you, and regardless of your mental ability, you
| can't outwork it, or outwill it, or outwish it.
|
| But personally I see it as your brain providing you a health and
| safety moment - there is danger in your current approach, and the
| circuit breaker has been tripped.
| lolc wrote:
| I've always had slow days where I didn't want to work. Just give
| a call that today is one of those days. At most places I worked
| this was understood and respected. The other places I didn't work
| at for long.
|
| Sometimes I feel stuck in the morass of legacy apps we're looking
| after. Then I remind myself how things were when I started here.
| How we've invested to improve things. That I'm digging around in
| shit because that's where the work is.
|
| At times I just watch the blinkenlights for a while. With bits
| flowing and data transformed in quiet concert. Orchestrated by us
| to serve our fellow humans. I might even read some code that
| hasn't failed in a year. Sweet comfort to know it's there,
| working as intended.
|
| Then I grab the shovel again with renewed urgency. Make some red
| commits. Get them merged.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Such a delight to find prose that shines like a shimmering
| pearl in a mass of muddy water undistinguished from the silt.
| We are in dearth of writing that finds beauty in things often
| thought mundane.
| stevenj wrote:
| I think it's still a fairly new phenomenon where white collar
| work often consists of sitting in front of a computer monitor all
| day. Not for leisure, but for work (something you possibly don't
| want to be doing to begin with).
|
| For me, less screen time (for work, but also in general) and more
| time spent outside and/or in the presence of people I like has
| really made me a happier person.
| hondo77 wrote:
| I've been through burnout before. A few times. Not fun. Alas, I
| never had the luxury of being able to take time off (it turns out
| that children like eating food). So, while I can sympathize, I
| also can't sympathize since I had to work through it (usually by
| changing employers).
| divbzero wrote:
| I was wondering about the parenting angle. How do you work
| through burnout when quitting is not an option?
| [deleted]
| carlivar wrote:
| If it's literally food on the table at risk, your finances
| are stretched way too thin and you should solve that
| separately. And living on the edge like this is probably a
| big contributor to burnout/stress.
|
| But to try to answer your question: I've wondered if going to
| work for a slow, boring company would help. Like a bank or
| just a local place that needs more I.T. type of help than
| amazing startup code. I tend to doubt this would work though.
|
| Maybe work for a non-profit with a mission that aligns with
| your values? This is where I would lean.
| legerdemain wrote:
| I have just quit a dev job at a corporate philanthropy
| whose mission "aligns with my values." It was more aimless,
| more cryptic, less meaningful, less "real," and less
| obviously impactful than any other dev job I've had. Every
| day was just a long, drawn-out feeling of "why bother."
| carlivar wrote:
| Corporate philanthropy triggers my BS detector a bit
| though. Do you think a non-profit would be different?
| Like, say, ASPCA or UNICEF instead of the Exxon-Mobil
| Climate Taskforce or whatever corporate philanthropy
| means (I actually do not know, could you elaborate?).
| legerdemain wrote:
| I was working at a philanthropic org funded by one of the
| Bay Area tech giants. The org was focused on science
| research and advocacy. But being neither a scientist nor
| activist, I was very far removed from whatever it is that
| our org did. My job was keeping the proverbial lights on.
| The combination of uninteresting work and being really
| peripheral within the org finally did me in.
| Clubber wrote:
| I took about 4 months off a few years ago and it was great, but
| I always had the nagging feeling of, "you're cash is getting
| lower."
|
| I'm saving up to do it again in a few years.
| Hippocrates wrote:
| Just go into power save mode. Ramen noodles and shots at home
| before meeting friends at the bar.
| trekt wrote:
| Out of curiosity, how long did it take you before you felt like
| you were back to your "normal" self?
|
| I'm currently in the same position, and like the author of this
| blog, started my "burnout" recognition (followed by recovery)
| around end of November 2020 (first time experiencing burn out).
| I've since switched employers, and although I'm still way
| better than before, I don't feel my normal, creative, resilient
| and excited self. Minor set backs feel like the end of the
| world. I'm now having to battle with imposter syndrome, and I'm
| not sure whether this is part of the journey.
| hondo77 wrote:
| If you don't feel imposter syndrome on a new job, you're
| probably doing it wrong. :-)
|
| I don't know how long it usually take to fully recover. I've
| found that a new job changes things around enough that I feel
| better so I can at least function again. Normalcy comes
| sometime later.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I've been struggling with serious burnout for a long while now. I
| know I need to do something to fix it, but I've been at a loss as
| to what.
|
| Maybe quitting my job and taking 6 months off would work...
| cbeley wrote:
| Wow, I have not really been keeping track, but this post made me
| realize I'm now almost a year into my career break (and now about
| four months into my road trip of mostly camping). I can't say I
| ever worked extreme hours, but I definitely reached a tipping
| point. It's only recently that the idea of working again and
| having a stable place to live is starting to sound nice/exciting
| again.
|
| I still have another 2.5 months planned on the road though and
| I'm still not sure what I want to do after. Finances have worked
| out much better than expected, so I kind of want to do
| international travel, but between covid concerns and concerns of
| being out of my field for so long, I've been a bit on the fence.
| On the other hand, I'm very unlikely to get rid of my apartment,
| downsize my belongings, and put the rest in storage ever again.
| cbeley wrote:
| I'll add that one thing is for sure: it took a while, but I've
| slowly started to feel like my old self again -- or at least
| the self I want to be. I'm also infinitely more relaxed now
| when it comes to handling traditionally stressful events.
| anon9001 wrote:
| > If you have the financial ability to, don't feel like you can't
| quit your job. Your sanity is worth it.
|
| Alternate phrasing: If you don't have the financial ability to
| stop working, you can't quit your job. Your sanity is not worth
| it.
|
| > I needed to completely remove any feelings of pressure, or any
| external, and internal, obligations. "You decide what to watch on
| Netflix because I literally can't." I've eaten more takeout in
| the last few months, than the whole pandemic; I didn't have the
| energy to shop for groceries, or cook. I desperately needed to
| enjoy things again - so I could remember what that was like - so
| I could get back to enjoying 'productive' things too. Remember
| that producing recovery, relaxation, or joy for yourself is still
| being productive.
|
| There are loads of people that don't even bother with cooking or
| groceries or enjoying things or having a sense of productivity. A
| lot of us are busy doing the capitalism because capital is the
| only sensible way to escape labor and any disruption would be
| very costly.
|
| What the author considers "burned out", most would consider just
| another day. It only becomes "burnout" when you're wealthy enough
| to consider converting your labor time into self-care time for
| some months.
|
| Also, taking time off is probably not even good advice. If you've
| always been miserable with the employed lifestyle, you're
| probably going to be just as miserable when you are forced back
| to it. Maybe more so.
|
| Plus you lose out on those months of earnings, which is not good
| because 4 months of pay now is way better than 4 months of pay in
| the future. Assuming, that the goal is to eventually not be
| forced to sell your time for money.
|
| > My boyfriend told me to stop working. It wasn't work, and it
| was great. I was learning something. Completing something. Doing
| something because I wanted to do it, not because it was the next
| urgent thing that needed to happen. It felt like work used to
| feel like. That's what I'm looking forward to again.
|
| I have no idea how someone whose career path is
| McKinsey->Google->GitHub could possibly have a great work
| experience where they're learning and building and following
| their personal interests because they wanted to do it and not
| because it was the next urgent thing to build.
|
| Maybe I just really suck at working in tech, or PM jobs are way
| easier than engineering jobs, but everything feels very urgent
| for my employer while actually being a giant waste of time for me
| personally. I do it because of the compensation, which I invest,
| so eventually I won't have to do it anymore.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > What the author considers "burned out", most would consider
| just another day.
|
| This statement is very much like saying "what one person
| considers 'depression' most would consider 'being sad'".
| Burnout is not what most people consider just another day. It
| isn't being overworked, harried, and under pressure.
| collaborative wrote:
| The best antidote to burnout is to do more of what you like. Of
| course you first need to have a passion. Good luck if you don't
| (drinking is not a passion)
|
| De-prioritize whatever is boring or stressing you out and don't
| feel guilty about it. It will benefit everyone
| frickinLasers wrote:
| This is perhaps a prophylactic for burnout, certainly not an
| antidote.
|
| There is no "what you like" once you hit that wall, or...tar
| pit.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > The best antidote to burnout is to do more of what you like.
|
| But what do you do when the burnout is so deep that you find no
| joy in anything, even things that used to excite you?
| bricss wrote:
| I totally agree. Every time I felt burnt-out, I switched my
| focus on passionate precious things, succeeded with it, and
| puff, burn-out is gone... entirely
| madengr wrote:
| I took the day off to do manual labor, outside all day in a heat
| advisory. I'm absolutely filthy and still not finished.
|
| I love my tech job.
| Hippocrates wrote:
| This REALLY resonated with me. I know I am burnt out but hearing
| someone describe everything I am feeling so precisely and
| completely is crazy.
|
| I burnt out around the same time (november) and realized at about
| the same time too (february). Between those stages I started to
| phone it in at work. I'd skip rote meetings, cancel things I
| didn't feel like doing, and just not do things that I was
| _supposed_ to do but thought would go unnoticed. Lo and behold, I
| received a raise and a promotion. I feel like I am slacking but
| maybe the burnout is a difference in perception, or it's relative
| as we're all burning out together.
| acscott wrote:
| High performance requires high maintenance. If you are burnt out
| or have symptoms or even suspect, I strongly urge to get a team
| together to help. It's something you have to actively watch out
| for (at least for some people) and actively treat. Here are two
| data points: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28119229/
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29057125/
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I strongly urge to get a team together to help.
|
| As someone struggling with how to resolve my burnout, I'm eager
| for all suggestions. I don't understand this one, though.
|
| What sort of team are you talking about? How can someone in the
| depths of burnout cope with having to assemble one? Who should
| be on it? What are their roles?
| orzig wrote:
| Thank you for sharing this. People's frank discussions of burnout
| in posts and comments over the years have helped me recognize the
| two major instances of burnout I've had over the last few years.
| Recognition doesn't let you snap out of it immediately, but it's
| a really good first step.
| yupper32 wrote:
| For me, I've started feeling like I'm close to burnout. But
| quitting doesn't really seem like a helpful option.
|
| Could I actually take months off recovering? No. I'd have to
| immediately start leetcoding and remembering what all those trees
| are for so that I could become employed again later on. And risk
| having to take a job that pays way less than before.
|
| Which brings me to my main point: I don't see an option where the
| work ever actually truly ends. There's always more. Always things
| I need to be doing. And until I have enough to retire, I have to
| keep grinding.
|
| Vacation doesn't help. It just puts me farther behind.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > And risk having to take a job that pays way less than before.
|
| Would that really be so bad? If software dev is burning you out
| then why try a different career and a cheaper lifestyle. Or
| simply a lower-pressure job and a cheaper lifestyle (there are
| plenty of companies that don't do leetcode interviews).
| eropple wrote:
| _> I 'd have to immediately start leetcoding and remembering
| what all those trees are for so that I could become employed
| again later on. And risk having to take a job that pays way
| less than before._
|
| The former is untrue, in my experience.
|
| The latter is _worth it_.
|
| _> Vacation doesn 't help. It just puts me farther behind._
|
| Work somewhere humane and this really, truly isn't an issue. It
| isn't. There is sustainable work out there, and you do take a
| haircut to do it, but it's far from unlivable.
|
| Like--oh, woe is me, I _only_ made a few multiples of the
| median personal income in the USA last year. I could have made
| _several_. But--would I be happier? No.
| yupper32 wrote:
| > Like--oh, woe is me, I only made a few multiples of the
| median personal income in the USA last year.
|
| This isn't helpful. I thought HN would understand more than
| most, but a lot don't seem to.
|
| It's more like--great I make a ton of money. _now that you
| 're here, try to keep it going_.
|
| Taking a pay cut (which would be significant my comp is
| ~FAANG level), feels like gambling. Is it worth hundreds of
| thousands of dollars to _gamble_ that my new lower paying job
| is less stressful?
|
| There are some success stories, but do we hear of people who
| left their high paying jobs only to be just as stressed in
| their new positions?
| davidwf wrote:
| I personally left my FAANG role behind for a role that had
| way more of what I wanted to do (coding) and way less of
| what I hated (paperwork), and it was one of the best
| decisions I've ever made in my life.
|
| I think it's important to keep in mind "signal bias" -- I'm
| never on other social media, and I'm only on HN every
| weekday over my breakfast and morning coffee. I don't spend
| time building my brand or writing blog posts or shouting
| from the rooftops about how great my life is because I'm
| trying hard to stay busy actually _enjoying_ how great my
| life is. In my experience, there really are a lot of folks
| who 've made similar decisions, it's just that part of
| managing your life is also giving up on trying to convince
| strangers that you're awesome.
| neltnerb wrote:
| > Is it worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to gamble
| that my new lower paying job is less stressful?
|
| Worth it in what sense? You sound like you're trying to do
| a statistical and financially logical risk analysis. If you
| have burnout, that's just not an option. It sucks, but
| simply trying to do that math _and somehow compare it to
| non-financial things that are important_ would probably
| take the help of a trained therapist.
|
| So the answer is just going to vary.
|
| If you are not on a path to burnout, who cares if the job
| is objectively stressful? Maybe you enjoy that environment
| and that's fine, in that context a logical financial
| analysis makes sense. Plenty of people are extremely happy
| and extremely successfully in stressful high paying jobs,
| plenty of other people would happily make much less money
| if it means they get to spend more time with family,
| mentor, work for a non-profit they care about, do pro-bono
| work, switch fields, ... the list is long. People's
| motivations are complicated and I assume yours are too, or
| if they are not now that they are likely to become
| different as time goes on.
|
| If you are on a path to burnout, the amount the job pays
| matters a lot less. Certainly if you can lose hundreds of
| thousands of dollars of theoretical future income the
| answer is comically obvious -- yes, it is worth it to find
| something more sustainable. I've never made half a FAANG
| salary when compared to people with similar experience and
| education at those places, and would _still_ give up half
| my salary to avoid it. But I also don 't think it's obvious
| whether you are on a path to burnout, you could try
| engaging a therapist to help make sure that you are
| tracking your feelings at regular intervals to see the
| derivative, but often it's even harder to see from the
| inside than it is from the outside (by which I mean friends
| family more than work colleagues).
|
| That said, _money in the bank_ vastly reduces the stress
| that contributes to burnout, no question. Future earnings,
| not so much. Those are in the future, and imply that you
| will even be capable of continuing in the role you 're in
| that long.
|
| A serious analysis of future financial rewards and career
| options is a thing that is almost beside the point when
| you're actually dealing with burnout. Uncertainty about
| careers is more of a professional coach thing, if I had a
| professional coach suggest to me that I should do a back of
| the envelope calculation of how much money I stand to gain
| if I merely push myself to work for another year and _then_
| burn out I am walking out the door by the time they finish
| the sentence. It 's just the wrong type of advice for the
| issue at hand.
| irrational wrote:
| This note about vacation is something I can relate too.
| Vacation never refreshes me. Going back to work after vacation
| feels so good.
| temporallobe wrote:
| > Vacation doesn't help. It just puts me farther behind.
|
| This struck a chord with me. I recently had a "vacation" where
| I still had to participate in and do work on an RFP and then be
| in the RFP presentation itself. I ended up working 3-4 hours
| every day. In addition, when I got back (officially), I was
| expected to simply "catch up" with the work I couldn't do
| during the week I was off. It was actually one of the most
| stressful vacations I had ever been on because I was torn
| between trying to relax and spend time with my family and the
| duty to my job. I justified it by saying to myself that I was
| at least having _some_ fun, but it actually ended up being
| worse than if I hadn't taken vacation at all.
| cdrini wrote:
| I'm sorry to hear that you're close to burning out. Having a
| family definitely complicates the situation. I imagine it's
| much harder to fly with the wind when you're helping carry
| others.
|
| If your work is remote, perhaps a change of scenery might
| suffice? I've been working from Albania, and with timezones,
| that basically means I get to go to the beach in the morning,
| then start work at 2PM-10:30PM.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Much of the battle is learning how to assert some control over
| your life. Burnout comes with significant learned helplessness
| - A feeling that you don't have any control over your life
| because previous attempts to take control have failed.
|
| The trick is to un-learn that helplessness by retraining
| yourself with small steps in the right direction. Jumping
| straight into hours of Leetcode grinding isn't a good small
| step. Setting a goal to solve 2 Leetcode problems per week is a
| good first step. Or even better, maybe skip the Leetcode and
| start pinging your network for any job openings. Not every job
| requires Leetcode practice.
|
| > Vacation doesn't help. It just puts me farther behind.
|
| Time to force some control over your workload. Does your
| manager try to shame you into not taking vacation? Or do they
| expect you to accomplish the same work whether your on vacation
| or not? Time to push back.
|
| If you're burned out and thinking of quitting anyway, what's
| the worst that can happen? As it turns out, you're not actually
| going to get fired quickly at most any company for simply
| limiting your workload to something reasonable. There's a
| hiring crunch right now and they'd have to replace you with
| someone else. Then you'd just get another job, which is what
| you wanted anyway. Time to start setting some boundaries,
| leading with expectations instead of waiting for them to be
| applied to you, and forcing some vacation time into your
| schedule. No one is going to make vacation happen for you, so
| get it done.
|
| Meanwhile, it's time to find another company. I agree that
| quitting isn't a great idea if it can be avoided. I've seen
| enough people quit due to burnout and/or depression, only to
| spiral further into burnout/depression in the ensuing
| loneliness and financial stresses. Better to switch to a new
| job where people actually enjoy working together.
| ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
| Yeah I feel the same way. I work a stressful job that pays
| really well. If I leave, its unlikely I can land a job that
| pays the same. I just dont have the energy for leetcode. I am
| considering taking FMLA time off, which can be three months of
| unpaid time off. Just need a note from the doctor. I think
| three months is about enough to cure mildly bad burnout.
|
| Of course work will not be happy with me, but I have to lookout
| for myself. They have to honor my position upon return, the
| question being that my future on the team would be compromised.
|
| A more sinister idea is to take FMLA and leetcode full time for
| three months, then land a new role. Its kind of unethical, but
| life is so short.
| tcoff91 wrote:
| Are you sure you can't reach out to your network and get in
| the side-door of a company without leetcoding? If you have
| advocates on the inside sometimes you can skip all the
| rigamarole.
| ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
| Not quite, there are roles I could get. But I am mostly
| referring to FAANG/Some unicorns in terms of matching comp.
| None of which will give me the benefit of the doubt,
| despite my experience. But again, I am quite burned out, so
| in some ways its in their favor to put me through a
| rigorous interview process.
|
| Leetcode often filters out burned out employees
| eropple wrote:
| _> But I am mostly referring to FAANG /Some unicorns in
| terms of matching comp. None of which will give me the
| benefit of the doubt, despite my experience._
|
| Then do something else! There is a world beyond unicorns
| and FAANG companies.
| tnorthcutt wrote:
| Agreed. If you're burned out, consider moving to a lower
| cost of living area (assuming SFBA or similar is your
| current situation) and take a lower paying job. The
| stress of FAANG/startupville doesn't make sense for a lot
| of people.
| yupper32 wrote:
| How much money is that worth to you?
| granshaw wrote:
| Not if you want that level of comp
|
| (Sorry if you were already aware and are saying more
| along the lines of "money isn't everything", but I wanted
| to make the point)
| brundolf wrote:
| I've never actually had to do leetcode (or any other
| automated code screening thing) for a role. Usually
| there's some whiteboarding or pair-programming with an
| actual person, but I never really practice ahead of time
| or anything, and it usually goes fine. The interviews
| themselves can be draining but it rarely takes more than
| a handful of them to land a job I like, in my experience.
|
| I'm not going for the very toughest FAANG roles, so maybe
| that's the difference, but I don't really relate when
| people talk about "leetcode crunching"
| nerdponx wrote:
| You might be eligible for paid short-term disability leave
| with the doctor's note.
|
| Also, interviewing and quitting after leave isn't unethical.
| Do it, take care of yourself.
| Hippocrates wrote:
| Tell your manager you're burned out and concerned for your
| mental health and you might just be allowed to take a paid
| leave, on which you can leetcode or catch up on TV. I know
| several people who did this and even one who quit immediately
| on return.
| nanidin wrote:
| Have you tried talking about this with your manager? Jumping
| straight to FMLA is making a lot of assumptions about the
| company and what they might be willing to do to retain you.
|
| As an example: my SO was dealing with a lot of stress due to
| health reasons and tried to use FMLA. Her company let her do
| the paperwork, but ultimately let her take off 3 weeks of
| paid leave that didn't count against her PTO. That gave her
| some room to breathe, but she started crashing again a few
| months later and tried to hand in her resignation. Welp. Her
| company is now giving her 6 months of paid leave with no hard
| obligation to return to work, just a request to be courteous
| and let them know if she's not coming back so they can stop
| paying her.
|
| If the first time that your manager is hearing about your
| situation is also your request to start taking FMLA
| immediately or else resign, your manager isn't going to be
| able to do much for you (and probably won't want to either,
| given the tough situation you will be putting them in on
| short notice.)
|
| IMO our industry should really start considering sabbaticals
| as the next standardized perk. I think they would do a lot to
| prevent burnout and retain top performers.
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| +1 to sabbaticals. We had to end someone's employment and
| rehire them because HR wouldn't consider unpaid leave.
| unclebucknasty wrote:
| > _But quitting doesn 't really seem like a helpful option._
|
| Once you hit full burnout, you'll realize that you don't really
| have a choice, unfortunately. You will have to stop. Whether
| that means quitting depends on your situation but, in any case,
| you won't be able to continue on your current path.
|
| > _And until I have enough to retire, I have to keep grinding._
|
| This is the trap that pushes us into burnout. By definition, it
| happens when we get to a place where we're making enough that
| retirement (or other financial goal) becomes an option on some
| timeline we think we can stomach. Then, we worry that the cost
| of improving upon our current situation (or even replicating
| it) is too high. So, we settle into a game of essentially
| trying to outlast the misery. In reality, our quality of life
| is so miserable that it's simply not worth it. We recognize the
| problem, but we convince ourselves that we don't have a choice.
|
| But, the premise itself is an illusion. There are always other
| options, some of which are far less costly than we imagine (and
| certainly less costly than destroying ourselves). It sometimes
| takes walking away from the burnout situation to recognize our
| full option-set, so we get stuck in a loop, the confinement and
| stress of which adds to our burnout.
|
| One way out is to simply say to yourself, "I can no longer live
| this way" and intenralize that it's really not an option to
| continue. You will then be able to see new opportunities for
| change, as well as assign the proper cost to making those
| changes. In other words, you'll start to gain the perspective
| you need to move forward.
| pjc50 wrote:
| > don't see an option where the work ever actually truly ends.
| There's always more. Always things I need to be doing. And
| until I have enough to retire, I have to keep grinding.
|
| There's always another possibility: you might die. And then
| what would happen to the poor work?
| yupper32 wrote:
| I'm not worried about the work.
|
| But my family, who needs my financial support, would be in a
| much much worse position.
| tnorthcutt wrote:
| In that case I highly suggest you stop what you're doing
| and buy $1-3M of term life insurance, depending on various
| factors.
|
| I'm completely serious.
| yupper32 wrote:
| I do have that, actually. I'd very much like to not rely
| on that, though :)
|
| My post you're responding to was a little dramatic and
| really just a response to the idea that I cared about
| whether the actual work gets done. I just care about my
| family.
| blahblahblogger wrote:
| Same here. I joined a company pre-IPO several years ago and
| even though though Wall-street just punished us (hint hint) I'm
| still making close to 1m per year due to stock appreciation vs
| when I joined.
|
| Unfortunately I'm not worth getting paid that much, so my
| statement isn't a humble brag or anything, it's a realistic
| observation that my role + work isn't special and I shouldn't
| be making this amount. With rest/vest I will likely never get
| this high of a salary + equity package again.
|
| In that sense I feel like I'm currently at my maximum earning
| potential even though I'm a mid-level engineer. Plus going back
| to leetcoding? Pfft.
| anon9001 wrote:
| Similar situation here. With full honesty, if they worked me
| 18hr/day, I'd just have to put up with it until vesting is
| complete.
|
| Thankfully, most public companies don't seem to have
| management that will look at your vesting schedule and try to
| abuse you maximally. I'm really not sure why, they probably
| should be doing that.
| nonbirithm wrote:
| _"You decide what to watch on Netflix because I literally
| can't."_
|
| About all I've heard in response to suggesting ideas like these
| is that I'm an adult, so nobody is able to decide anything for me
| anymore.
|
| I completely disagree. Depending on the importance of the
| decision, I would gladly relinquish some of my personal liberty
| if I absolutely needed to take my mind off of the crushing weight
| of choice for a while. On bad days, I've found myself unable to
| stop being stressed at constantly questioning if I'm making the
| wrong choices, even for the most insignificant things like
| sitting down and doing nothing for a few minutes.
|
| Also, some of the most significant turning points in my life only
| came as a result of people insisting that they knew what was best
| for me over and over again, and if I hadn't listened to their
| advice then I would be far worse off than I am now.
| PKop wrote:
| Reminds me of "learned helplessness" [0]:
|
| "In humans, learned helplessness is related to the concept of
| self-efficacy; the individual's belief in their innate ability to
| achieve goals. Learned helplessness theory is the view that
| clinical depression and related mental illnesses may result from
| such real or perceived absence of control over the outcome of a
| situation."
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
| klyrs wrote:
| Reminds me of how I thought about other people's mental health
| before I burnt out and kept pushing for several years. Good
| luck.
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| I think relating burnout to learned helplessness registered
| as dismissive to you - it definitely isn't. Depressive
| helplessness/burnout/learned helplessness all have a lot in
| common; GP was apparently just making that connection. They
| probably share some very similar biological mechanisms.
| PKop wrote:
| Point of relating it to learned helplessness is that
| companies may structure their work, or assignments, or team
| structure, or culture, expectations etc in ways where
| employees feel nothing is getting accomplished, they have no
| autonomy, workload stacks up, and eventually they feel
| nothing they do can make the situation better.
|
| They are not setup such that applying more effort causes
| workload or problems to get smaller, or where progress is
| made. They learn that the situation is helpless.
|
| Now there's some fuzziness around whether this realization is
| maybe the end of the struggle for some, where they stop
| burning themselves out and just give up. But they would need
| options; quitting or having alternative employment to go
| somewhere else. If not, they'll be in a bad spot.
| Nevermark wrote:
| The "learned helplessness" rings true to me. Burnout for has
| usually occurred to me after making many attempts to get past
| major inefficiencies. Work continues, but despite many
| attempts, remains a terrible slow inefficient slog. Far below
| my potential.
|
| Eventually I just become unable to work. Extreme mental fatigue
| even after good rest or even long vacation breaks.
|
| I am happy to say I got free of the situational factors that
| were never going to get better and am very happy and productive
| now.
|
| One things that amazes me, how truly dumb I am when depressed
| vs. happily creatively challenged. Anyone meeting me in these
| two states would have very different impressions of my
| abilities, potential, work ethic, etc.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Same for me. When I'm excited and motivated, feeling
| positive, I'm an unstoppable force and my brain works better
| than I realize it can. When I'm depressed, I will barely
| engage. I'll forget everything I'm doing. I'll have no
| executive function. Solving similar problems to those I have
| in the past seems insurmountable. Knowing this, and having no
| power over it in the moment, makes it a lot worse.
| kaycebasques wrote:
| Burnout was probably a factor in my decision to take a 1-year
| sabbatical (as of June 2020, so I'm almost 3 months in).
|
| > I never thought I'd take five months off, without being able to
| explain to a future employer what I was doing. It felt like too
| much.
|
| I'm very specifically phrasing it as a sabbatical, to hedge
| against this worry. I think the general population has a vague
| idea that a sabbatical isn't wasted time. In reality this is
| probably time for me to recover from burnout, too. But since
| there seems to be stigma around "burnout" I'm avoiding the whole
| topic by phrasing it as a sabbatical. I have no guilt about this
| because I legitimately am taking time to build those things I've
| always wanted to build, study those things that I know I should
| study but never had time for, and all those other life things
| that I know I should prioritize but can never find the
| time/energy to do when I have a full-time job.
|
| I did cheat a bit this month, though. I got an opportunity to do
| some contract work with a startup for 1-month (3 hours every day,
| 7 days a week). There may be an opportunity to work with them
| again in the coming months but for now I am definitely returning
| to my own projects starting in September. If you can find short-
| term gigs like that I'm finding that it's a nice balance. Kinda
| keeps one-foot in work world and keeps my marketable skills
| sharp, but then I can go off and do my own thing again.
|
| I've heard a few people say that you need more than a few weeks
| to recover from burnout. I think there's a lot of wisdom to those
| statements. I think it takes a few months of completely
| disconnecting from work pressure. I doubt I'll need a year. I'll
| probably be itching to get back to a job before the year is up.
|
| More on why I took a sabbatical:
| https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical/prologue
|
| Week-by-week updates if you're curious:
| https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical
| kilroy123 wrote:
| Early this year I came off a 2 1/2 year sabbatical. It might
| take a long time to recover. Depends on the person.
| holler wrote:
| What did you do to fill your time in that 2 1/2 years? Did
| you get bored or find yourself wanting to return to
| productivity?
| cbeley wrote:
| I got a few "Won't you get bored" or "I'd get bored"
| comments before I started my career break. I honestly don't
| understand it. I like software engineering (despite burning
| out), but there are so many other things in the world. I'm
| a year into my career break and I still don't get the
| "boredom" comments.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I've always been mystified by those sorts of comments as
| well. But perhaps I'm just fortunate. I have enough
| things that I want to do that I could easily fill a
| decade with them.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| I'm curious about burnout from a neurological perspective. Does
| anyone have any ideas on what is really going on inside the brain
| during burnout?
| makk wrote:
| The author seems unaware that their problem isn't burnout. That's
| a symptom. Their problem is a failure to set boundaries. Without
| boundaries they'll just hit the wall again. Over and over.
| newobj wrote:
| Very astute comment
| carlivar wrote:
| If it's that simple why is burnout so topical now at month 17
| of covid19?
|
| I think it's actually: your boundaries needed to significantly
| change during the pandemic, and you didn't recognize that in
| time.
|
| If covid19 had been eradicated in 6-9 months and we were
| globally back to normal, would burnout still be as much of a
| problem? I suspect it would not be.
| _ink_ wrote:
| I would like to set boundaries. Like working 4 days a week, 10
| out of 12 month a year. But most employers have a different
| idea of how much I should work.
| rubidium wrote:
| This is a very findable arrangement at most Fortune 500
| companies.
|
| You're technically working 5 days , but really just work 4.
| With 7 weeks vacation [combine corporate holidays with 5
| weeks personal PTO or those unlimited pto places] and a
| couple weeks of just turning in prior work it's not hard.
| kibblesalad wrote:
| Unfortunately companies know that it's vastly cheaper to frame
| the narrative around blaming personal responsibility and the
| employee for "not being tough enough / being unskilled at
| negotiating / bad at managing their free time" than to change a
| toxic work culture that demands increasingly more out of fewer
| and fewer staff.
| Applejinx wrote:
| This person understands what actual burnout is. You get really
| seriously fried, like 'can't function in any sense' fried. The
| references to 'you have to decide what we'll watch on netflix
| because I literally cannot choose a thing' rang very true to me.
|
| I generally needed more than a couple months but less than a
| year, and the removal of whatever it was that I'd burnt myself to
| a crisp trying to control. Over my lifetime that's been
| everything from overcoming homelessness, starting a business,
| transitioning the business to Patreon, trying to have a
| relationship: it's been a lifelong process of learning that I
| can't have things (even very desirable things) just by pushing
| harder to earn them. Quite often I just have to give up and not
| have the thing.
|
| The more I learn that, the less I'm riding the edge of burnout.
|
| :)
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| This is a good opportunity to point out (to everyone, not just
| this parent comment) that there is a lot of overlap between
| burnout and depression.
|
| It's a common mistake for people to think that because they can
| identify the cause of their current state (work-induced burnout
| from a bad job, for example) that their symptoms can't be from
| depression. That's not true. They're not mutually exclusive. In
| fact, they overlap heavily both in symptoms and possible
| treatments.
|
| The good news is that many of the techniques designed to
| address depression, such as CBT, self-guided therapy,
| exercises, and so on, translate quite effectively to helping
| with burnout, too. In fact, a burned-out person can pick up a
| CBT book or sign up with a therapist and drop right into
| helpful exercises to begin restoring a sense of agency,
| rebuilding autonomy, unlearning negative thought patterns, and
| other things that contribute to getting stuck in burnout.
| dbcurtis wrote:
| Agreed. Burnout and depression may overlap. In my case, they
| did not. I've been burned out. I've been depressed. Burned
| out is better :) If you think you might be depressed, get
| some help.
|
| Joking aside, for me the therapy is the same for either. I
| need to selfishly attend to my own agenda for a while, and
| build something just because. My workshop is my therapy zone.
| YMMV.
| yazaddaruvala wrote:
| Yeah I agree. I always thought burnout and depression were
| the same thing. How I've previously (maybe incorrectly)
| differentiated is:
|
| Disclaimer: Trying to be concise, I understand depression is
| a spectrum, different for everyone, and a lot more complex
| than these few words.
|
| Depression: You're basically fried and can't make decisions
| in any/all "verticals" (i.e. self-love, romance,
| professional, etc) not even to leave the house.
|
| Burnout / Heartbroken: A subset of depression for a specific
| vertical in life. Burnout is a depression from a profession,
| but you still enjoy/can go on dates or hang out with friends.
| Heartbroken is a depression from romance, but you still
| enjoy/can work to distract yourself, take up a hobby, etc.
| tdeck wrote:
| Reading this I'm wondering if I simply lack the willpower to
| get that burned out. When I start getting miserable and
| overloaded for a while, I tend to "burn out" in smaller ways
| and for shorter periods. Maybe I'll just become less productive
| for a few days or wake up with a massive headache and have to
| take the day off. I'm not particularly proud of these things
| but now I wonder if the alternative is worse.
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| I feel that, I'm not a lazy slug by any stretch but my
| company seems to be fine with me and other devs working
| 40-45h per week. I still get the stress, frustration and
| weeks of listlessness, then I read these articles about 80h
| weeks and feel even worse.
| ScoobleDoodle wrote:
| I would call that a blessing in disguise. From my experience
| the alternative is indeed worse.
|
| It's much better that your pressure valve opens at a lower
| pressure and forces you to take some time to care for
| yourself. Rather than letting the pressure build until you
| break and then not much can be done but wait for the slow
| process of healing to rebuild you.
| marcc wrote:
| I'm glad you are doing better. I think the author here does
| understand what burnout is, and was able to notice the symptoms
| a lot earlier. It shouldn't get to the point of not even being
| able to decide what to watch on Netflix. Burnout happens, and I
| think conditions less serious than yours can still be called
| burnout.
|
| Again, really happy you are ok. I hope you are working in an
| environment that is healthy, and that you are able to prevent
| burning out again.
| paulannesley wrote:
| I think you saw a "doesn't" that wasn't there in the opening
| line: "This person understands what actual burnout is." The
| Netflix reference was from the original post.
| marcc wrote:
| You are right!
| White_Wolf wrote:
| Respect for needing only a few months.
|
| I got burned out so bad a few year back (2015-my fist and only
| time) I was not able to focus on anything for almost 14 months.
|
| Still feels surreal thinking about it. Had parts for rebuild my
| rack and everything in it and was not able to gather my thought
| to set anything up. I failed to install even a basic ubuntu
| server in 1-2 tries.
|
| Apart from tending to the flowers in the garden, cutting grass
| and cooking... I was good for nothing. Watching a movie?
| Autoplay on youtube was it. Just sit there until 2AM watching
| <random>. Shopping for groceries? good joke. Sleeping? I was
| dreaming I'm in the office half the time. I had a flipping
| server chasing me down the rail track a few times because it
| didn't like the transcoding settings. Eh. Not pleasant but I'm
| counting it as a lesson in life.
|
| I digress. What I'm trying to say is that I envy people that
| can get out of it so fast.
| bserge wrote:
| You should experience burning out and having your ashes
| ignited (because you can't afford to quit), too. It's sooo
| much fuuun!
|
| Fuck life.
| devin wrote:
| When I was in my 20s I feel like I bounced back from burnout in
| about 6 weeks. At 36 it feels like it's taking quite a bit
| longer than that. The pandemic certainly hasn't helped.
| WalterSear wrote:
| I'm in the depths of this, have been since March (this last
| time).
|
| I now spend most of my time fighting a pitched battle with
| myself, in order make baby steps in the direction of work. But, I
| get stuck when it's time to actually submit a resume or contact a
| hiring manager. My biggest sticking point right now is preparing
| a convincing story for the interviewers. I'm just not ready to
| bullshit strangers about lofty 'career goals' or how excited I am
| to be a part of their 'company's growth journey'.
|
| Taking time off has helped, but it's also run its course: I've
| done this so many times now, I can no longer convince myself that
| next job won't lead me back here.
| dwaltrip wrote:
| Would it work to tell them you needed some time away from work
| to treat some serious health issues, and that you are doing
| better and are ready to get back into the swing of things?
|
| IMO burnout is a serious health issue.
|
| Also, I don't think career goals have to be "lofty". Showing up
| every day and doing good work should be enough in a healthy
| work environment.
| WalterSear wrote:
| Ah, I'm not worried about explaining any gap in my resume:
| I'm having trouble putting on my interview face.
|
| Career goals _do_ have to be lofty during interviews, just
| like the company you are applying with has to be destined for
| certain and boundless success, and the interviewer wise,
| profound and physically attractive. :)
|
| Seriously though, job interviews are inherently processes of
| competitive elimination. A lack of enthusiasm, or of clear
| professional goals that involve the role involved, are
| significant red flags.
|
| I'm at a loss as to how to overcome this: I've had too much
| difficulty to truly believe that work environments can be
| healthy, or how to hide this from interviewers.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I don't have the option to burnout and take a year off.
| Unemployment is very scary for me right now. Plus I tried to grow
| a few programming hobbies but never went far, so I'd be really
| bored if I quit. I think the maximum number of days that I can do
| nothing is around 7.
| granshaw wrote:
| I don't know what your full situation is, but if possible
| highly recommend you start taking steps to give yourself more
| options/breathing room
|
| Start saving a cushion for yourself/your family. Start with a
| month, then try to get to 3-6. Might have to cut down on some
| things but those will be important discussions to have.
|
| Try to find something else outside of work that you enjoy. I
| know this can be hard, as I didn't have anything before either.
| I now have a small revenue generating side product which in
| many ways is just "more work", but I'm passionate about it
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Thanks. On my case it's less a financial issue than a lack of
| long term creative hobby issue.
|
| I found it difficult to stick to any hobby for a couple of
| month and quit in the middle too easily. I kinda give up amd
| hope I can work till my death to avoid a boring retired life.
| It's impossible for me to grow a creative hobby.
| vikas-kumar wrote:
| check
| timwaagh wrote:
| I'm wishing you best of luck on your recovery. I also have a bit
| of unsolicited advice for those in a similar situation.
|
| it's better to pace things. If I find myself working at 1am, I
| know I'm acting silly. My employer won't thank me for it either.
| They don't want maximum output. They want someone who is
| dependable also the next morning. If your life is nothing but
| work you are also bound to get depressed. Your employer doesn't
| want an unproductive worker so make sure to take at least an hour
| for yourself and eight in your bed. If seven hours of meetings
| are causing you not to work during business hours you should tell
| your manager man hours are being poured down the drain and the
| team is working at 10% of it's capacity even without vacations. I
| never had a manager who doesn't listen to such arguments. You
| will still be a somewhat disgruntled employee because if it was
| fun they'd have someone pay to do your work. But you won't
| experience any other symptoms.
| chasd00 wrote:
| I don't want to sound too callous but for those with families the
| cure for burnout is the terror of putting those that depend on
| you for their livelihood on the street.
|
| Suggesting taking a year off work because you're tired of your
| job is an incredibly privileged (to the point of offensive) thing
| to say.
| tnorthcutt wrote:
| I also have a family and don't have the luxury of taking a year
| off of work.
|
| But I also think it's possible to recognize that someone else
| is in a different position with different life circumstances,
| and not be offended by them sharing their experience.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| I don't have children in part because I grew up with a single
| mom on tight finances. Having enough economic security and a
| decent childhood to willfully have children is also a privilege
| (I'm perhaps naively assuming abortion is legal.)
| kevinh wrote:
| So you're saying that having a family offers you a shortcut for
| avoiding the worst of burnout? Sounds like both parties have
| different kinds of privilege, if that's the case.
| quantumBerry wrote:
| It doesn't cause you to avoid it, just you realize suffering
| through it is better than getting divorced for lack of being
| able to support the family, and the ensuing child support
| judgement (for which there is debtor's prison if you can't
| keep up) that will be even more onerous to your finances than
| supporting a nuclear family.
| quantumBerry wrote:
| Your family will not be on the street. A wife will generally
| divorce before (or at least right after) she is on the street.
| Welfare will then provide benefits to her and the child.
|
| What will happen is once the wife/kids goes on public benefits,
| that will initiate the child support order. The judge will
| create an "imputed income" for you, which is whatever he thinks
| you should be able to earn. If you were a high income office
| worker, that dictates your imputed income. You are absolutely
| fucked if you don't keep earning at that rate, even if the only
| way to do it is a soul crushing office job. You must make
| enough to pay about 1/3 of that post-tax all in child support,
| or you will be in violation of child support. A few months of
| failure to keep up results in a felony conviction, the
| revocation of your licenses, seizure of your property,
| revocation of your passport, and imprisonment. While CS order
| accrues in jail, the arrears will quickly become
| insurmountable, and you will never again have any economic
| chance in the United States. It will never discharge, even in
| bankruptcy, and debtor's prison will always be in the near
| horizon.
| Valmar wrote:
| It's not nearly so simple as being "tired" of your job.
|
| You obviously have zero idea what burnout is, or what it feels
| like to be in such a position.
|
| I'd argue that you obviously have the incredible privilege of
| never having experienced burnout.
| User23 wrote:
| If you're burnt out at a big company job where you have performed
| well up to that point for at least a few years, you may have more
| options than you think. You might ask for a leave of absence for
| a couple months. Even unpaid it'll probably end up being
| financially better than the alternatives, supposing that it's
| enough time for you to recover. Another option is to negotiate a
| separation. Don't just quit. Approach your HR professional and
| explain your situation and say you'd like to discuss next steps.
| Oftentimes in exchange for signing a general release you can
| convince them to sign off on a severance package. Assuming you're
| not at the director level or above, they will probably just plug
| some numbers into a spreadsheet and tell you a number. My
| understanding is that 1-2 weeks salary per year of service is
| pretty typical in SV at least. The advantage to this route is it
| keeps your employee file clean and you get a little cushion.
| Sometimes they'll also agree to not contest unemployment
| benefits.
|
| If you really truly are burnt out, your alternative is to get
| PIPed and canned, so only forego the above if that's a better
| outcome for you. I'd advise against that route though, because it
| will damage your reputation and you may be ineligible for re-
| hire.
| howmayiannoyyou wrote:
| Catch22 -
|
| From the quoted CNN article: "...the generous pandemic-era
| unemployment benefits that have already ceased in multiple states
| will run out in September, which could affect the rate of hiring
| as well."
|
| Part of the burnout (certainly not all, perhaps not even a
| majority) is the extra load working Americans are taking to
| offset the voluntarily unemployed.
|
| Somehow, I suspect many states will extend these benefits beyond
| September until Congress & State legislatures can enact
| legislation that assigns benefits to those truly in need vs.
| electively unemployed... if that's even possible.
| bpodgursky wrote:
| I don't think individual states will meaningfully extend
| benefits. Only the federal government can print money to pay
| for it.
| ianlevesque wrote:
| > Part of the burnout (certainly not all, perhaps not even a
| majority) is the extra load working Americans are taking to
| offset the voluntarily unemployed.
|
| This pattern matches against a common strategy the elite use to
| keep everyone else complacent - turn them on each other. Be
| careful with easy answers to hard problems.
| hkt wrote:
| > Part of the burnout (certainly not all, perhaps not even a
| majority) is the extra load working Americans are taking to
| offset the voluntarily unemployed.
|
| Maybe better to focus on paid time off and sick leave. The
| companies can afford it, regardless of what they say..
| mixologic wrote:
| This idea presumes a few things: 1. Tech workers are burning
| out due to 'extra load' because of staffing issues at
| companies. 2. The staffing and workload issues are due to tech
| workers being voluntarily unemployed.
|
| The first is probably very true. But tech companies have
| _always_ ran as bare thin of a crew that they could to meet
| output requirements, which is why you can find content on tech
| burnout all the way back to the dotcom era and probably before.
|
| The second is, in my mind, untenable. The kinds of salaries
| that a tech worker makes is _wildly_ different from the amount
| that unemployment covers. In my state unemployment would barely
| be half of my salary, and thats _with_ the added covid
| benefits. I strongly, strongly doubt there is even a small
| fraction of people willing to take that kind of paycut in
| exchange for pure idling.
| [deleted]
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