[HN Gopher] System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD intern...
___________________________________________________________________
System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in
stock
Author : sampling
Score : 248 points
Date : 2021-08-31 19:58 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (system76.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (system76.com)
| cbHXBY1D wrote:
| I would love this in the Lemur Pro. Not sure where coreboot is
| for all AMD chipsets.
| frant-hartm wrote:
| I don't understand why they don't offer 128 GB version.
| detaro wrote:
| Quite simple: The CPU doesn't support that.
| sebow wrote:
| Ugh, better late than never i guess...
|
| People have been waiting for this since 1st gen ryzen.Yea i know
| they're not on the Lenovo/Asus-tier of resources, but still.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| OMG and it has an HDMI 2.0? Is this the first real laptop that is
| as good as a 2013 macbook pro (aka the last HDMI non-ribbon one)
| eecc wrote:
| Ouch: * 1080p * beancouter optimized keyboard
|
| why?
| jagger27 wrote:
| I say it every time every time one of these threads pop up and
| I'll say it again here: if it's not 16:10 or 3:2 I'm simply not
| interested.
|
| I buy devices like this for productivity. I don't care about
| black bars when watching videos because I don't watch videos on
| it. What I absolutely care about is the extra inch of text in my
| terminal or text editor.
|
| I didn't think this was a controversial opinion.
| bo1024 wrote:
| Framework might be for you! I think it's 3:2.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Indeed it's nearly perfect, but I would only buy it with a
| considerably better processor. Both Intel and AMD have
| incredible stuff lined up for the next few years in that
| space. For now though, since I have to keep a Mac around for
| work, I'll probably stick with my M1 MacBook Air for my
| portable needs and keep using Linux on my desktop.
| freedomben wrote:
| a great thing about the framework though is the processor
| is upgradeable! So once the new stuff comes out ...
| jagger27 wrote:
| Yes, if I haven't just bought this MacBook I'd probably
| consider it.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Doesn't a wide aspect ratio let you put two code listings next
| to each other?
| jagger27 wrote:
| Sure. It works even better with a little extra height.
| inetknght wrote:
| I have a System76 Serval WS with AMD Ryzen 9 3900 and Nvidia GTX
| 1660 Ti manufactured last year. The laptop's internal display
| went wonky late last week but an external display still works
| fine. It's annoying to reboot -- the GPU drivers aren't loaded
| yet when the boot disk passphrase prompt is shown, so the
| external display doesn't show the passphrase prompt (and
| importantly: whether unlocking succeeded). It's within a 1-year
| warranty for parts & labor. I'm currently talking to with
| System76 support staff to ship it back for repair. The process
| has, so far, been easy and straightforward.
|
| In the past they had pushed a driver update that disabled the
| laptop display when multiple monitors are connected. I had
| recognized the problem since their system drivers are open source
| and was able to recommend & review a PR to fix [0]. It was nice
| to see that patch go in.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/pop-os/system76-driver/pull/182
| NexRebular wrote:
| How's *BSD support on these ones?
| jandrese wrote:
| The specs page is a bit vague in places.
| Graphics AMD Radeon(tm) Graphics Storage 1
| x M.2 SSD(SATA or PCIe NVMe). Up to 2TB total.
|
| In the configurator you have to pay attention to the read speeds
| to figure out if you are getting a SATA or PCIe drive. There is
| no indication for which brand of drive they are using. I have a
| few SSD controllers that are on my do not buy list, like anything
| made by Sandforce[1] after we lost almost an entire lot of
| computers to premature firmware failures and got absolutely no
| support from the vendor for even just resetting the firmware and
| starting over.
|
| [1] https://computerlounge.it/how-to-unbrick-sandforce-ssd/
| wmf wrote:
| Sandforce hasn't existed for years BTW. Unfortunately the
| general problem stands; virtually no laptop will tell you what
| SSD you're getting.
| scns wrote:
| At https://tuxedocomputers.com another Clevo reseller like
| System76, you can choose the SSD you want or even none and
| put it in yourself.
|
| Disclaimer: contented customer
| nicholasjarnold wrote:
| > There is no indication for which brand of drive they are
| using.
|
| Yes, though they tend to use quality parts. My 2019 Darter Pro
| (darp5) was configured with a one of the NVMe options and
| shipped with a 'Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus'. No complaints on
| hardware quality or longevity so far. </anecdote>
| neogodless wrote:
| While you're right that the brand is not listed, every single
| drive in the configurator lists NVME. The "Storage"
| specification you show is just what the M.2 connection supports
| as far as interface. So if you have an existing SATA M.2 drive,
| or want to buy one to save money, you can.
|
| The graphics are integrated into the APU, so you can look up
| their specifications.
|
| https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u
|
| https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-5700u
| jagger27 wrote:
| For graphics, the 5500U has 7 CUs at 1800 MHz. The 5700U has 8
| CUs at 1900 MHz. They're both ancient Vega APUs so they're
| really nothing special.
| heurisko wrote:
| I have the 4500u with the AMD Radeon RX Vega 6.
|
| I know it's not the latest architecture, but I've found it
| very capable for integrated graphics.
| edoceo wrote:
| Can you write code and use a terminal and web, two
| displays? Can you use one big (4k?)
| heurisko wrote:
| I don't have anything that supports 4k, but it has no
| problem connecting to anything via HDMI for two displays.
| neogodless wrote:
| Obviously the "Linux-first" is a big value-add for this brand,
| but the hardware for the price isn't amazing.
|
| $1200 gets you a Zen 2 (previous generation) 6-core, 12-thread
| CPU[0], 8GB RAM, 240 GB NVME, 15" 1080p (did not see
| brightness/color accuracy mentioned.)
|
| But I like my laptops to come with fast refresh and a dedicated
| GPU, and I run Windows, so I'm not their target audience. Would
| love to hear how this is received by those in the right market
| segment!
|
| [0] A bunch of $600-700 laptops with this CPU:
| https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| I just recently got this: https://www.newegg.com/pine-gray-
| asus-zenbook-14-um425ua-ns7... and it's a great laptop. The
| equivalent pangolin is nearly double the price.
| avodonosov wrote:
| What OS do you use with it?
| webmobdev wrote:
| Price does seem to be on the higher side. It does satisfy most
| of my checklist though:
|
| - Does the hardware fully support Linux? _Yes_.
|
| - Does it have the latest AMD Ryzen CPU? _Kind of (last gen is
| decent too)._
|
| - Can you run other OS on it? _Yes._
|
| - Is the screen glossy? _No (is matte / anti-glare)_.
|
| - Is the RAM soldered? _No_.
|
| - Is the RAM upgradeable? _Yes, upto 64 GB_.
|
| - Is the SSD soldered? _No_.
|
| - Is the SSD upgradeable? _Yes_.
|
| - Can the battery be easily replaced? _Yes_.
| techrat wrote:
| It's all Clevo based anyway. System76 doesn't go much beyond
| what they source. It's a shame, if they actually made the
| effort to design a laptop that went beyond its foundation, I'd
| be more interested. But instead it's Clevo guts, Clevo
| problems.
|
| Looking at the AMD laptop linked...
|
| Lots of empty space that could have been slightly optimized for
| a larger battery. It just seems basically thought out... not
| like consideration is actually put into the design and layout.
| wmf wrote:
| System76 can afford to design their own laptops _after_
| enough people order the existing models.
| acomjean wrote:
| You are right that's the value add. Not having to worry if the
| hardware works and having a curated linux (popOS is very much
| like ubuntu).
|
| I've had a system 76 onyx laptop running popOS for over 2 years
| now. It keeps itself updated and I'm able to do my tasks with
| very minimal system configurations. Firmware updates come
| through fine. I think Linux hardware support is pretty good for
| a lot of laptops, but for me it was worth the extra money not
| to have to deal with it.
|
| My system 76 is "Clevo" OEMed machine. Very much evidenced when
| I let stuff get in the fan and I had to replace it. Parts are
| available.
|
| https://www.clevo.com.tw/index-en.asp
|
| As someone who is new to Linux on desktop, it was pretty great.
| I got Unreal engine compiled, Intelij and It can even use
| steam. My machine has a Nvidia 1060? so its actually pretty
| decent for the limited gaming I do.
|
| Like many things, if things go well and this scales up, the
| additional cost for having staff making sure linux is supported
| should go down.
| mariushn wrote:
| $906 gets you Ryzen 7, 16GB RAM, 14", no numpad:
|
| https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?fq={!ex=733}lengs_Screen...
| neogodless wrote:
| That's not accurate. If you click through, it's a set of
| laptops starting at $906. The model at that price is
|
| * AMD Ryzen(tm) 3 Pro 5450U Processor (4 cores)
|
| * 8 GB RAM
|
| * 128 GB storage
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Here's a better comparison. https://www.newegg.com/pine-
| gray-asus-zenbook-14-um425ua-ns7...
| chludek wrote:
| Pretty much no details about the display. What kind of panel is
| this? What's the maximum brightness? How fast is the refresh
| rate? How large is the color gamut?
| pyrophane wrote:
| If it weren't for that damn 16:9 display this would be a good
| machine for me.
| ruined wrote:
| 1080p screen is a no-go. come on yall, it's 2021
| kaladin-jasnah wrote:
| Well, (it's been a while so this might be really false now)
| Linux might have not-so-great support for HiDPI screens.
|
| Either way, I can't really see the difference between 1080p and
| 4K, so it wouldn't matter for _me_.
| Aeolos wrote:
| That might be correct when talking about _video_, but is
| factually incorrect when talking about _text_.
|
| To understand why, just print an identical piece of text on
| 600, 300, 150 and 75 dpi on your printer and look at the
| printouts side by side. There is a significant downgrade in
| quality between each step, and anything below 300 dpi looks
| quite bad.
|
| 15.6" at 1080p is ~141 ppi[1] which is in the "not good"
| range. Your OS attempts to salvage the situation by applying
| font hinting (i.e. distorting your fonts to fit the pixel
| grid) and antialiasing (subpixel on linux, grayscale on the
| latest versions of windows & macos) - both of which are
| imperfect workarounds for the lack of resolution.
|
| The MacBook Pro is ~217 ppi (1800p at 15.6"), which is better
| but still not perfect.
|
| A 4K 15.6" screen works out at ~282 ppi, which is starting to
| be good enough to finally turn off font hinting and view
| fonts as intended by their designer rather than squished by
| subpar display technology.
|
| [1] https://www.sven.de/dpi/
| bscphil wrote:
| > both of which are imperfect workarounds for the lack of
| resolution
|
| Imperfect, certainly, but they _are_ pretty good
| workarounds that usually generate perfectly readable text.
| In my experience, when text looks bad at 1080p, it is more
| often because hinting has been done _badly_ , heavily
| distorting the letter forms, rather than the inherent
| limitations of the resolution.
|
| To be clear, I certainly prefer reading text at higher
| DPIs, but at should be seen as one particular tradeoff to
| be weighed against the heavier battery and graphics demands
| of higher pixel count screens.
| kaladin-jasnah wrote:
| I understand what you're saying, but antialiasing, despite
| its being a flawed workaround, seems to work well enough
| for me that even when reading text on a 4K display it's not
| a huge difference that I can notice it so much that it
| bothers me (I used a 4K monitor for a couple of years).
| Sure, 4K for text might be better, but it doesn't mean that
| _I_ notice a difference.
| cupofjoakim wrote:
| Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient. The
| upsides of not wasting battery and just performance of not
| having to push more pixels makes it worth it. Even gaming
| channels like LTT talk about this a bit.
|
| That being said - if you're coming from the macbooks retina
| it's definitely a downgrade. My guess however is that this
| device won't have a screen that is that good either way though.
| bscphil wrote:
| At 15.6 inches I think it depends pretty heavily on how good
| your operating system's font rendering is.
|
| If you're stuck on Windows I can't imagine using anything
| lower than 4k at that size. On the other hand, I'm using a
| 17.x inch laptop currently, only about a foot and a half from
| my face, at only 1080p, and it's fine. (Before you blame my
| vision - I'm actually nearsighted. My vision is near-perfect
| at this distance.)
|
| I certainly wouldn't accept this DPI from a current laptop,
| of course; the font rendering certainly could be a lot better
| and more density would be nice for easier photo editing and
| so on, but I think a lot of people have forgotten just how
| good 1080p can be if it's handled well in software. A whole
| generation spent most of their time on crappy CRTs. Compared
| to that almost any HD screen is an enormous improvement.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Sweet spot @15" for me is 1200p if I can get it 1440p
| otherwise. I haven't used a computer with less than 1200
| vertical lines since 2004 and I don't plan on changing it.
| ciupicri wrote:
| Gamers are known of playing at lower resolutions so they
| would get more FPS.
| ayushnix wrote:
| > Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient.
|
| Considering what I've recently learned about the fractional
| scaling mess, I would only buy laptops with a 1440p or 4K
| display because they don't need fractional scaling.
|
| I really wish there were more 24 inch 4K or 27 inch 5K
| monitors on the market and not the 27 inch 4K mess we're
| getting. I'm not sure what monitor manufacturers are
| thinking.
| jm4 wrote:
| I would have thought the same several years ago. At age 40+,
| 1080p on a laptop is still good. Even at 1080p, I have to go
| into accessibility settings to enlarge text. I'm pretty much
| out of the market for 4k screens on laptops these days. Also
| had to switch to a big phone and crank up the text size.
| numpad0 wrote:
| 4K on laptops should be a bless, not pain, with recent enough
| Windows - you shouldn't need to try enlarging text by
| lowering output resolution. That was a Windows quirk that
| everything assumes 96dpi regardless of dpi.
| driverdan wrote:
| I'm 40 and the difference is very obvious to me. I have no
| interest in any low DPI screens.
| slantyyz wrote:
| 50+ with bad eyes, and I think the difference between 4K and
| 1080p is still very noticeable on a 15.6" laptop, in terms of
| sharpness.
|
| Having said that, most people probably set the text
| magnification on a 4K screen to be the same as a 1080p
| screen, so any real estate gains tend to be a wash.
|
| Since getting presbyopia several years ago, I had single
| vision glasses prescribed for using a computer. So when I am
| using a computer, as long as the screens are around 21" to
| 27" away from my eyes, everything is sharp. It sucks having
| an extra pair of glasses (and remembering to swap them when
| not using a computer), but I would go nuts if I didn't have
| them.
| ayushnix wrote:
| > Having said that, most people probably set the text
| magnification on a 4K screen to be the same as a 1080p
| screen, so any real estate gains tend to be a wash.
|
| If someone's buying a laptop with a 4K display for real
| estate, he's probably misinformed. You buy a 4K display on
| a laptop for the pristine ~293 PPI vs a mediocre ~146 PPI
| on a 1080p display which would look even worse considering
| it would need fractional scaling while the 4K display would
| work with integer scaling.
| slantyyz wrote:
| > 1080p display which would look even worse considering
| it would need fractional scaling
|
| That depends on the OS though, right? I don't know about
| Linux or Mac, but I'm pretty sure that if you scale on
| Windows, you're still running at the native resolution,
| but the UI elements get scaled. Nothing should look
| weird. At least that has been my experience on Windows...
| outside of apps that don't follow Microsoft's scaling
| guidelines.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Even at 1080p, I have to go into accessibility settings to
| enlarge text.
|
| 1080p is about the resolution of the screen, not the size of
| anything rendered on the screen. 96 point text will be the
| same size on 4k, 8k, or HD.
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| 1440p is the way to go. 4K is harder to sustain and you start
| needing some scaling as well
| jcelerier wrote:
| a lot of computers being sold today are still 1366x768
| Koshkin wrote:
| ... and 4 GB of RAM
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Nothing wrong with that for a lightweight Linux
| dev/browsing machine. More than that just goes unused.
| sofixa wrote:
| Depends on your browsing habits. I often end up with
| hundreds of Chrome tabs, which can easily result in 16GB
| of RAM being consumed by it alone. Thankfully there are
| plugins to automatically suspend unused tabs which help
| with that.
| abledon wrote:
| Isn't 1080p way better for battery life + its mostly
| indistinguishable in pixels? unless you are like, looking
| really close at the pixels? remember its 1080p inside a 15"
| monitor, not a 24" monitor a PC has.
| jagger27 wrote:
| It's like no one here has used a MacBook before. They've been
| putting 2560 by 1600 displays in 13" MacBooks for what, a
| decade now?
| bluedino wrote:
| Mac OS doesn't have all the goofy issues that Linux and
| Windows do when using hidpi/4k whatever screens.
| sz4kerto wrote:
| Windows has practically perfect hidpi nowadays. Also on
| moderately hidpi screens (eg 4K 32"), MacOS is extremely
| blurry.
| as1mov wrote:
| Eh not really, I've used the hidpi MacBooks for work, it
| doesn't really make a big difference.
|
| I can tell the difference between a 1440p/4k and a 1080p
| screen, but it doesn't bother me to the point where I won't
| buy machines which don't have it, it's just a nice bonus.
| SheinhardtWigCo wrote:
| Very distinguishable after daily use of a MacBook Pro.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Yeah ok but this is a computer for hackers, not people who
| decide what shade grey to make text on a website.
| noahtallen wrote:
| High DPI is great for text. It's easier to read and way
| more crisp. High DPI is about edges and lines and details
| (like text), not colors!
| chrisseaton wrote:
| High resolution is particularly useful for people who
| work on text all day - so hackers.
|
| I don't know if you're confusing it with high dynamic
| range? This isn't about colour.
| downWidOutaFite wrote:
| My 16" Macbook Pro's display is certainly beautiful but the
| battery life is pathetic. If lower resolution really did
| save battery then I think I would make the tradeoff,
| especially since everybody runs the resolution scaled down
| from 3072x1920 so the only thing you gain from it is the
| subpixel sharpness.
| ngngngng wrote:
| I have a 4k x1 Carbon and I can confirm that it's dumb. I
| would prefer the battery life but also the iGPU isn't
| powerful enough to run an external monitor while the display
| is using 4k so I have to scale it down for that anyway.
| akvadrako wrote:
| Maybe older generations weren't powerful enough, but I use
| the 7th gen (2019) to run a 2nd 4K external display and it
| works fine.
|
| 4K is a little overkill for 14", but I wouldn't consider a
| laptop below 3K. Definitionally not dumb.
| ngngngng wrote:
| What OS are you using? I installed PopOS onto mine and
| maybe something there is the issue. We have the same
| model and mine is maxed on specs but whenever I'm in 4k
| and using an external monitor it becomes unbearably slow.
| akvadrako wrote:
| I run Ubuntu. Works fine in windows too.
| okasaki wrote:
| I wonder, can users who want better battery life on their
| 4k laptop just run the screen in 1920x1080?
| ndiddy wrote:
| My biggest problem is the aspect ratio, on a laptop 16:9
| simply is not enough vertical space. Hopefully Clevo will
| realize this at some point and make a laptop for System76
| with a 16:10 or 3:2 screen.
| MisterTea wrote:
| If you spend a lot of time reading/typing text on a computer,
| hiDPI helps as the text is a lot sharper. Though honestly I
| don't care as much and find that 1080 is an acceptable
| resolution for smaller screens (<= 22").
| ohazi wrote:
| I have good eyes and strongly prefer wqhd (2560x1440) over
| 1080p on my 14" Thinkpad, because I can just barely lay out
| two windows side by side without stupid websites like Gmail
| and JIRA getting too narrow, using my scale factor of choice.
| With 1080p, I turn off scaling and it just doesn't work. Full
| screen is too big, anything less than 2/3 is too narrow.
|
| I can easily get 10 hours of battery life with light use,
| sometimes more (my system idles at around 5W unless I crank
| up the brightness to excessive levels).
|
| 4k (UHD) on a 14" display is excessive, in my opinion. I
| don't know what the power consumption is like, but at the
| scaling that I prefer, the layout ends up looking identical
| to my wqhd setup, only crisper. That would seem like a waste
| of power. Shame all the recent T-series Thinkpads have gone
| down this route.
| Koshkin wrote:
| Should be good up to 24"
| kazinator wrote:
| It's a 15" screen! For 4K to even begin to make sense, you need
| a 40" diagonal, and with your face about a foot away from it.
| (For a more detailed explanation, ask a local fifth grader.)
| Guest42 wrote:
| Would ordering one of these with 32gb of ram lead to a
| significant decrease in battery performance?
| neogodless wrote:
| Looks like the increase from 8GB to 32GB is going from ~3W to
| 12W of power consumption.
|
| The CPU likely consumes 30-45W depending on configuration.
|
| So it's not trivial, all things considered.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| CPUS or SOCs these days can achieve quite low power states
| when in idle, like aingle digit watts.
|
| Where do you get the 12w from?
| Guest42 wrote:
| Thanks for followup, I was curious if the ram was allocated
| in blocks if sections could go unused.
|
| Right now I have 16gb and it's been great and I generally
| don't put much pressure on it (except for some occasional
| Android Studio virtualizing).
|
| However, it seems as though software resource usage has a
| tendency to creep up over time so it seemed like more RAM
| would be a safe option. I also tend to use the computer
| more lightly when it's unplugged.
|
| I don't know much about hardware so all input is
| appreciated.
| neogodless wrote:
| Just a preliminary web search.
|
| Here's one example:
|
| https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/how-
| much...
|
| > As a rule of thumb, however, you want to allocate around
| 3 watts of power for every 8GB of DDR3 or DDR4 memory.
| High-performance memory such as Ballistix(r) parts can draw
| more power, especially if you overclock the voltage beyond
| XMP settings.
|
| Similar numbers here for slower DDR4-2133.
|
| https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-
| core-i7-5960x-has...
| m0zg wrote:
| 1080p in 2021, targeting a "tech" audience? Good luck with that.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Most people who do tech work in the sense of using a computer
| for most part of their days such as software devs (I hope) use
| external keyboards and screens and mice anyway, 99% of the
| time. AC adapter plugged in. With the WFH trend, this will be a
| growing trend.
|
| I unplug the AC adapter and monitor to go over to someone's
| desk or hold a presentation perhaps a few times a month at
| most. I would not want to write code a whole day on even the
| best laptop keyboard and the most crispy 4K laptop screen.
|
| There is a surprising lack of choice for laptops targeting this
| mode of use though. For example the $3k Dell precision I have
| now doesn't like being used plugged in for extended periods.
| They put a category of battery in them that swells when heated.
| So if you, like me, leave it on for say a year at your desk
| (This happened during the pandemic) - it expands and the
| keyboard and trackpad stops working.
|
| When you go for a "workstation" class laptop, the manufacturers
| have crammed so much perf into an impossibly small package,
| that it's screaming loud and glowing hot. Just make it twice as
| thick with half the battery size and I'll buy it.
| [deleted]
| winter_blue wrote:
| The price is a bit too high (as always with System76). Last year,
| for the same price ($1,199) on sale, I bought a ASUS Zephyrus G14
| with a Ryzen 4900HS and RTX 2060. Right now, you get it (for a
| bit more) with a 5900HS and RTX 3060.
|
| Both the 5900HS and the 4900HS will beat the low-wattage 5700U in
| performance handily. The G14 has a 76 Wh, so despite the
| "higher"-power (35 Watt) CPU, it'll still get a LOT of battery
| life.
| teekert wrote:
| System76 is nice, in this podcast the CEO is interviewed: [0].
| He is dedicated to transparency, open source and privacy.
| They're worth some extra money to me. Although I'm still
| waiting for their custom designed, all aluminium top of the
| line laptop :)
|
| [0]: https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/linux-
| unplugged/id6875...
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| What are system76 keyboards and trackpads like? I wish I could
| touch one before having to decide whether to buy
| john_yaya wrote:
| I have a System76 Gazelle. The trackpad tends to freak out when
| I reboot, issuing random clicks and cursor jitters - so I
| usually have to reboot again, or deactivate the trackpad in
| Ubuntu. Multiple firmware and OS updates haven't fixed this.
| masterof0 wrote:
| +1 on this, I got mine 2 years back, together with the fan
| noises, this was the "features" that annoyed me most. Also
| the Gazelle feels cheap, the keyboard is not terrible, but is
| not great either. I wish they they have a better quality
| case, a better keyboard, and a brighter screen panel. I have
| not tried the other models, I hope to get my hands on the
| Darter Pro, it seems promising. I think what System76 is
| doing is pretty cool, I just wish their products were more
| competitive.
| trashface wrote:
| I have an oryp5 (2019). The keyboard is ok. The numeric pad is
| annoying though, as others have commented. I definitely prefer
| my old mac which didn't have one.
|
| The touchpad is awful. Way too sensitive to palm touches, even
| in windows - so it isn't just a linux driver issue. This might
| be related to the fact that its off center but I think its just
| lousy hardware. In linux I've tweaked both the touchpad area
| (reduced) and threshold settings but its still barely usable
| and I palm-touch constantly unless I hold my hand at an awkward
| angle.
|
| Maybe this pangolin is better but I looked at the overhead
| picture of the keyboard and it looks almost identical to my
| oryp5. The touchpad may be upgraded hardware, so I don't know.
|
| I love what system 76 is doing, PopOS is great, but I really
| wish they'd get off these Clevo laptops. The hardware just
| isn't very good, IMO.
| hellcow wrote:
| I bought a system76 years ago wanting to support their open
| source work. Maybe it's changed since (?), but mine had a Clevo
| shell which meant it had a bad keyboard and a terrible
| trackpad, with a cheap plastic feel and lots of flex. It's the
| first laptop I ever replaced within a month...
|
| The keyboard was later recalled, so I swapped it out with a new
| one they sent me which wasn't cut to the correct dimensions and
| never fit (bubbling up in the center and leaving a gap around
| the keyboard for things to fall into).
| protomyth wrote:
| I wish a person could order one of these without the numeric
| keypad. I deeply hate being off-center to the screen when typing
| on these larger portables.
| p1necone wrote:
| I can't bear the thought of being forced to play roguelikes
| suboptimally.
| 83457 wrote:
| I used to use keypad all the time so when I got first laptop
| for work having one was my preference. I regretted that
| decision as the keyboard was more narrow than it otherwise
| needed to be.
|
| On a side note, I love the CM Storm Quick Fire TK keyboard I
| have with brown switches. It has no arrow/home vertical area,
| instead when you turn the numpad off the keys act like that
| slice. I wish more keyboards were like it. Not sure why they
| aren't.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| My wish for a laptop is one with the trackpad above the
| keyboard instead of below and the keyboard at the bottom edge
| of the case. I really don't like wrist-wrests on keyboards, but
| with a laptop, I have no choice.
| petepete wrote:
| The only laptops I know with the keyboard at the front of the
| base are a couple of Asus models, the Zephyrus and the
| Zenbook. Both have the touchpad to the right of the keyboard
| and a second screen above.
|
| Definitely an acquired taste and not the most portable of
| devices.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| Agreed. The least they could do, if a numpad really is
| necessary, is put something of equal size on the left side. A
| macro pad would be novel, or even just a left numpad so that
| right-hand mouse users could enter numbers at the same time.
| smegger001 wrote:
| i wonder if splitting the alphabet portion of the keyboard
| down the middle and putting the numpad in between would work.
| It would look like some unholy abomination but may be more
| ergonmoic
| bartvk wrote:
| I actually have this setup on my desk. Meaning, I have a
| Kinesis Freestyle 2 (split keyboard) and in between,
| there's an Apple trackpad.
| reaperducer wrote:
| They could do what Apple did 20 years ago: Make them modular.
|
| You used to be able to pop the trackball out from the right
| side of the keyboard area, slide the keys to the right, and
| then re-insert the trackball into the left side.
|
| Do the same with a num pad, instead of a trackball. And for
| people who don't want the num pad, make available half-width
| blank inserts to occupy the space on both sides.
| nostrademons wrote:
| I have a 2013 Pangolin and the keypad & touchpad are the worst
| parts. They're decent machines otherwise, but the off-center
| keyboard and touchpad with no tactile feedback make it very
| hard to navigate around the interface. Looks like they might've
| fixed the touchpad at least in this reboot.
| johnzim wrote:
| I have no idea who thought this was a good idea. The trackpad
| is even off to the left to accommodate it.
|
| I'm not a fan of symmetry for symmetry's sake, but I do think
| some affordances for the human body might be a good idea. How
| do southpaws enjoy this keyboard setup?
|
| The ergonomics of laptops are bad enough without stuff like
| this.
| yumraj wrote:
| >The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it.
|
| Yes, that is the first thing I notice. Any laptop with an
| off-center trackpad goes in the do-not-buy list.
| istingray wrote:
| Same here. Try to tell myself it doesn't matter but I just
| imagine hating seeing it every time I open the laptop.
| unicornporn wrote:
| Same here. Saw the lead image with and immediately thought:
| no buy. No fancy specs in the world can make me accept bad
| ergonomics.
| lincolnq wrote:
| I'd expect that the ergo costs of using a laptop at all
| (short key travel, screen down from eye level) would
| swamp the additional cost of having the keyboard off
| center. After all, you can just crane your neck down and
| sideways instead of just down :).
|
| Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work (who
| cares about ergo) should invest in an external keyboard
| and monitor.
| yumraj wrote:
| > Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work
| (who cares about ergo) should invest in an external
| keyboard and monitor.
|
| FWIW, I've been using a 15" MBP as my primary dev/work
| machine for over a decade and I've just become used to
| it. Tried external monitor, keyboard a few times, but it
| just doesn't work for me anymore. I mostly run in high
| res mode, as opposed to the scaled _default_ mode and it
| works well. This is also why the 13" laptops are not an
| option for me, am eagerly waiting for the 16" MBP
| _fingers crossed_.
| overgard wrote:
| Might just be a personal preference, I have two laptops (one
| of them a system 76) with numpads because I highly prefer
| having them. Macbook keyboards without them really annoy me.
| Obviously peoples mileage will vary.
| Klonoar wrote:
| >I have no idea who thought this was a good idea.
|
| You and many others probably know this, but figure it's
| helpful context for others who might stumble through this
| thread: it's not necessarily all on System76 as to why that
| shell is used, since the shells themselves are (IIRC)
| rebranded Clevo shells still.
|
| i.e I would suspect they're making use of what they can
| reasonably acquire to sell.
|
| (The offset aspect would drive me mad as well)
| caslon wrote:
| Southpaw here! I'd never buy a laptop without a number pad.
| The track pad being off-center is _also_ good.
|
| Gaming? 78462 make for the best movement, and the number pad
| also has seven non-numerical buttons to bind things to. It
| also puts your index finger _right_ next to lENTER, which is
| _so_ useful for games that make use of it.
|
| Programming? Bind the buttons to commonly-used UNIX programs
| to make for a better IDE than an IDE.
|
| Calculating? _So_ nice to have an ergonomic numerical input.
| amelius wrote:
| Ok, so the conclusion is that the keyboard should be
| customizable.
| caslon wrote:
| No, the conclusion is that more buttons are always
| better. You can _always_ customize a keyboard with
| minimal effort, unless you 're on a really bad operating
| system, like any of the proprietary ones.
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| Yes the numpad comes in useful when I'm calculating all day
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| If you were a real hacker you'd use it for playing
| roguelikes in the terminal.
| suprfsat wrote:
| hjklyubn
| luc_ wrote:
| irony over text..?
| Cederfjard wrote:
| > Programming? Bind the buttons to commonly-used UNIX
| programs to make for a better IDE than an IDE.
|
| Mind sharing some examples of your bindings?
| caslon wrote:
| My favorite (and the one I find myself getting the most
| joy from using) is /, which I have bound to tangle and
| weave my currently-open project (dbus, yay) into /tmp,
| apply a stylesheet to the output of it, determine
| languages used within, embed Emscripten-compiled
| interpreters for the languages being used into the
| generated pages (its file system API is incredible, "I
| Can't Believe It's Not UNIX!"-worthy), and launch a
| Mozilla instance so I can interactively play with/debug
| my programs while reading their documentation in the same
| window.
|
| If this sounds like a convoluted REPL with fancier in-
| line documentation, you're _kind of_ right. It 's
| basically just interactive and automated literate
| programming, though.
|
| The rest of my bindings range from pretty simple (running
| an open project's tests, displaying results from the last
| 10 commits, etc.) to significantly more complex. I have a
| few different xkb layouts depending on what I'm doing,
| and a few different languages get dedicated ones, but for
| the ones I most-commonly use, they all share one.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| I love numeric keypads. I don't have to type in big chunks of
| numbers very often (OCR and GPIB go a long way) but when I
| do, numeric pads make me hate life a lot less.
| Koshkin wrote:
| I prefer the hidden one.
|
| https://www.dummies.com/computers/pcs/the-hidden-numeric-
| key...
| loudtieblahblah wrote:
| i deeply hate being without a numpad. I understand it's
| duplicated space, but typing numbers on a numpad is just a
| million times faster than going above the alphabet keys.
| aendruk wrote:
| A virtual numpad can be the best of both worlds; no extra
| space is used and your hands stay in the center.
|
| Example with image: https://andrew.kvalhe.im/2021-03-19
| scintill76 wrote:
| How many digits long does it have to be to pay for the time
| to move your hand to the numpad and back?
| dragontamer wrote:
| About 4 digits IMO.
|
| The "5" key on most numpads has a bump so I can reach it
| without even looking at a keyboard I'm familiar with. Any
| 4-digit security pin I use is entered from numpads.
|
| I always buy a laptop with a numpad. Its my preferred
| method of typing numbers. There are also a whole slew of
| video game applications, as well as Blender movement
| (camera angles, camera movement, etc. etc.) that's highly
| intuitively mapped to the numpad.
|
| ------
|
| I should note that when I was practicing for the video-game
| community "Blazblue", all movements were discussed in terms
| of numpad. 236 is quarter-circle forward. 69874123 is
| "360-degree circle, counterclockwise, starting with right".
|
| Needless to say, typing a combo such as 5b 5c 2d 28d 28 b c
| b 8 b c 236c 2d was much easier with a numpad.
|
| Anyone who wants to "decode" the button pushes only needs
| to look at their numpad to see how their left-hand should
| move, with "b, c, d" being the keywords for the right-hand
| buttons in Blazblue. Street Fighter players use lp, mp, hp
| (light punch, medium punch, heavy punch) instead. So those
| bits get game specific, but the numpad approach to
| discussion is basically considered superior.
| andrepd wrote:
| You can get a cheap external numpad.
| Aperocky wrote:
| is it? I don't think it's any slower than typing other
| characters.
| baron_harkonnen wrote:
| I haven't had a full keyboard with a numpad in years, but
| if you ever worked in any data entry job in your career and
| learned to properly touch type on the numpad it is wildly
| faster than touch typing with the regular keyboard and
| needing to use two hands to reach all of the numbers.
|
| I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the
| off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is
| why there is such a divide.
| somethingwitty1 wrote:
| I did data entry for a job. In my experience, the numpad
| was considerably faster and accurate. It has been a long
| time, but I recall it cutting down entry time by ~5-6x
| (yes, I finished my daily quota in about an hour or two,
| instead of all day). The advantage was being able to use
| multiple fingers comfortably, without looking (there is a
| nice nub on most numpads) and leaving a hand free for
| letters/tabs. But like anything, I'm sure there are people
| that would have a different experience.
| raffraffraff wrote:
| If you work in a bank, entering deposits and withdrawals all
| day. Or a shop that doesn't have a barcode reader. Or if
| you're an accountant. I suppose you could also argue for a
| special programmer's pad too. I mean, I play the odd FPS and
| I'm still happy with WASD so I'm definitely not gonna
| understand.
| protomyth wrote:
| I guess I spend much more time doing regular typing and being
| off-center really makes it painful (old HP laptop).
|
| I did buy a wireless numeric keypad at one time that had some
| extra keys and arrows that made data entry really fast.
| vzaliva wrote:
| They definetely need such option for people like me. For me,
| wasting such a big chunk of my keyboard for keys I never use is
| a no-go.
| nawgz wrote:
| As someone who just ordered a 60% and found themself amazed at
| how usable it was - even missing classic keys like the arrow
| keys - I also can't believe they would go for numpad. Very
| oldschool for such a modern product.
| lupire wrote:
| It's not a modern product on the hardware side. System76
| hardware is generic Clevo kit.
| lupire wrote:
| The trick is to put a sidebar window on the right ao the
| keyboard feels centered.
|
| How often do you _type_ into a full screen window?
| sasavilic wrote:
| I too hate numeric keypad and being off-center. Especially when
| you need to keep notebook on lap.
|
| But it is really hard to find notebook without numpad these
| days. Especially hard if it needs to work with linux out of the
| box.
| superbaconman wrote:
| I use a tenkeyless on my desktop for exactly this reason. I
| could always shift a normal keyboard over to center it, but
| then my mouse is way off to the side.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| if you put a trackpad to the left, the keyboard centers!
| baron_harkonnen wrote:
| I'm curious do you touch type, and, if so do you also touch
| type on the numpad?
|
| I suspect the divide here is between people that are touch
| typists w/ experience in numeric data entry and people who
| still need to look at the physical keyboard to type.
|
| As a touch typist I've never particularly cared where the
| keyboard is, and while I haven't used a numeric keypad in
| years, I still miss having one.
| ohazi wrote:
| I switched from Lenovo's 15" T-series to their 14" models
| because of the goddamn numpad.
|
| I guess now I could look at the X1 extreme, because that has a
| 15"/16" display and no numpad.
| throwaway9980 wrote:
| It's oh so terrible isn't it? I feel like this is one of those
| flexible majority things that Nassim Taleb talks about [1]. The
| vast majority of people don't care one way or the other. There
| is a small minority who wants the numeric keypad and an even
| smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will
| never buy a laptop that includes one. For me, it's always been
| yet another selling point for the Macbook.
|
| [1] https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-
| dict...
| throwaway-jim wrote:
| The trackpad is not centered. I'm the small minority that
| won't touch a laptop with an off centered trackpad. It's very
| uncomfortable for me as I use my right handed. Ideally
| manufacturers should make a large touch screen/surface that
| covers the entire area below the keyboard. We have the
| technology, it can be done.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| If you're into "Linux-first" computing, you might also be
| interested in SimulaVR's "Linux-first" portable VR headset:
| www.simulavr.com
|
| It will run with an 11th gen Intel compute pack (x86 ), and have
| premium specs (roughly double the resolution of the Valve Index).
|
| Turning it on will boot you into SimulaVR's VR window manager
| (built over the Godot game engine) with hand tracking. All open
| source.
|
| It's intended to be more comparable to a Linux laptop (like
| System76) than a VR gaming device like the Quest.
| make3 wrote:
| "10x more productivity" ...
| Thoreandan wrote:
| Unfortunately, it looks like <https://tech-
| docs.system76.com/models/pang10/README.html> the Pangolin line
| has several non-open blobs in the firmware, so it's unclear if
| you can disable the AMD Platform Security Processor.
|
| The only available tech specs seem to be for pang10 not pang11
| hardware, maybe this will change.
| vizzah wrote:
| When typing, my right fingers always resting covering 4 arrow
| keys (provided it's a full-sized keyboard and arrow keys are
| separated from the rest with enough blank space). I use right
| fingers to reach Home/End/PgUp/PgDn buttons, INSERT/DEL on
| numeric. So it's quite useful to have them all close-by.
| acidburnNSA wrote:
| Kinda interesting that this has a 49 Wh battery while the smaller
| and less powerful Lemur Pro has a 73 Wh one [1]. I have the 2020
| Lemur Pro and love the ridiculously long battery life. I guess
| this is more of a plug it in most of the day machine vs. an
| ultralight.
|
| [1] https://system76.com/laptops/lemur
| shekhar101 wrote:
| I really appreciate how affordable upgrades (RAM, Storage etc)
| are. I am not used to it. Apple adds a hefty premium on these
| upgrades (I understand this is not a 1:1 comparison).
| Configuration looks really solid and affordable!
| second--shift wrote:
| who buys these instead of Lenovos for running Linux on?
|
| Lenovo T14's are going for 65% of the asking price of one of
| these, if you don't care about intel vs amd.
| istingray wrote:
| Linux support is a side project for Lenovo. They could end it
| any any time.
|
| System76 is all in on Linux support. That's why I support them.
| cure wrote:
| I have bought a few System76 laptops, though not this variant -
| I like to buy the ones that ship with coreboot.
|
| As for the price difference: you can buy the base model of the
| System76 and upgrade ram/disk yourself. This is harder to do on
| the Lenovo ones; it seems the T14 has (some of) the ram
| soldered on (ugh).
|
| But, it is nice to see that you can actually buy a T14 with
| Ubuntu preinstalled (if you are willing to wait 4+ months...),
| and they list it next to the (more expensive!) Windows version:
|
| https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/th...
| lanevorockz wrote:
| Looks great
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