[HN Gopher] System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD intern... ___________________________________________________________________ System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock Author : sampling Score : 509 points Date : 2021-08-31 19:58 UTC (14 hours ago) (HTM) web link (system76.com) (TXT) w3m dump (system76.com) | lurtbancaster wrote: | Why is it so hard to find laptops with ECC memory? | | Surely SO-DIMMs are just as susceptible to bitflips as regular | Desktop DIMMs? | | Am I the only one to care about this? | reilly3000 wrote: | I believe ECC is incredibly hard to get these days, but I could | be out of touch. It certainly was last year. I haven't seen it | in many laptop offerings over the years, except perhaps Dell's | workstation-type offerings as an option. | | I'm curious if bitflips have been an issue for you in your | experience. I don't think I've encountered it, but I may have | misattributed various bugs to software defects when they were | in fact due to bit flips. | lurtbancaster wrote: | That's the problem with bitflips isn't it? It's only a | possibility that can be considered when all other | possibilities have been eliminated. | | Whenever I've had non-ECC systems KPs/BSODs, it's possible | that it might just be due to a bug, but in the back of my | mind, I know there's always the possibility that it was due | to a bitflip. | | I feel psychologically uncomfortable working on a computer | without ECC. I say ECC everything - Desktops, Laptops, and | even smartphones. | | This laptop proclaims a maximum of 64GB of RAM. If you do | populate the slots with that much non-ECC RAM, that only | further increases the surface area for random bitflips. What | use is more RAM in a Linux laptop if it hasn't been made more | reliable? | | It's high time more laptops shipped with ECC. At least | unregistered ECC, if not buffered ones. | rossdavidh wrote: | Just to add my anecdatum: I am on my third or fourth System76 | laptop, the others are all still working just after a few years I | need to upgrade. One is now the living room stereo and one is the | gaming room stereo. The point I'm making is that they last for | years, I think my oldest is a decade old and still works fine. | So, just one person's experience but there it is. | watermelon0 wrote: | What's up with these designs? Their laptops look like they are a | few years behind, compared to MacBooks/XPS/Surface/etc. | | 1080p on 15" is quite criminal, do they think people look at this | at 2 meter distance or something? | cbHXBY1D wrote: | I would love this in the Lemur Pro. Not sure where coreboot is | for all AMD chipsets. | jhoho wrote: | The work is ongoing, it might take until the next release: | https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Coreboot... | sneak wrote: | 1080p. | | Even my shitty XPS has a >200ppi display. | | Why do PC laptops so often have crap screens? How am I to replace | a retina MBP with this? | frant-hartm wrote: | I don't understand why they don't offer 128 GB version. | detaro wrote: | Quite simple: The CPU doesn't support that. | sebow wrote: | Ugh, better late than never i guess... | | People have been waiting for this since 1st gen ryzen.Yea i know | they're not on the Lenovo/Asus-tier of resources, but still. | antattack wrote: | Seems better than Acer [1]but I don't think it's $700 better | | [1]https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/model/NX.A82AA.002 | bestouff wrote: | The only missing part for me is thunderbolt. I'm so used to it in | laptops I would have a hard time without it. | xxs wrote: | It's an AMD machine, no thunderbolt. | shams93 wrote: | I get away with a thinkpad chrome book I got for $700 with | similar ryzen 5 and 8 gigs runs app my stuff including docker and | android studio. | AtlasBarfed wrote: | OMG and it has an HDMI 2.0? Is this the first real laptop that is | as good as a 2013 macbook pro (aka the last HDMI non-ribbon one) | eecc wrote: | Ouch: * 1080p * beancouter optimized keyboard | | why? | jagger27 wrote: | I say it every time every time one of these threads pop up and | I'll say it again here: if it's not 16:10 or 3:2 I'm simply not | interested. | | I buy devices like this for productivity. I don't care about | black bars when watching videos because I don't watch videos on | it. What I absolutely care about is the extra inch of text in my | terminal or text editor. | | I didn't think this was a controversial opinion. | stevenhuang wrote: | What makes you think this is controversial? Your antagonistic | stance on this is strange. | jagger27 wrote: | Immediately after posting it was downvoted heavily. The last | sentence was added then. | bo1024 wrote: | Framework might be for you! I think it's 3:2. | jagger27 wrote: | Indeed it's nearly perfect, but I would only buy it with a | considerably better processor. Both Intel and AMD have | incredible stuff lined up for the next few years in that | space. For now though, since I have to keep a Mac around for | work, I'll probably stick with my M1 MacBook Air for my | portable needs and keep using Linux on my desktop. | freedomben wrote: | a great thing about the framework though is the processor | is upgradeable! So once the new stuff comes out ... | qudat wrote: | You're still forced into buying an intel chip now. I'm | holding out for an AMD with frame.work before purchasing. | Hopefully they will come out with one before I purchase a | M1 macbook air. | jagger27 wrote: | Yes, if I haven't just bought this MacBook I'd probably | consider it. | chrisseaton wrote: | Doesn't a wide aspect ratio let you put two code listings next | to each other? | washadjeffmad wrote: | If you're viewing this website on a computer, what dimensions | are your browser window? | | On mine, it's roughly the size and proportion of my last CRT | monitor. I didn't do it out of nostalgia, but it's | significantly less comfortable for my eyes to scan horizontal | than vertical. | | It's not that I want height as much as I don't want width. | [deleted] | jagger27 wrote: | Sure. It works even better with a little extra height. | chrisseaton wrote: | Isn't that argument circular? | | Wide screen - great but add a little height so you can see | more rows. Now you have a tall screen - great but add a | little width so you can see more columns. | jagger27 wrote: | See layer8's comment above. Let's say there's a sweet | spot somewhere between ultrawide and square. Why would | 16:9 be ideal? The golden ratio is pretty close to 16:10, | which is the basis of A4 (etc.) paper. | lmm wrote: | > Why would 16:9 be ideal? The golden ratio is pretty | close to 16:10, which is the basis of A4 (etc.) paper. | | No it isn't. A4 paper is roughly 7:5 (actually sqrt-2). | The fact that people consistently get this wrong suggests | that the golden ratio isn't actually all it's cracked up | to be (IME the golden ratio makes for things that are too | wide. My laptop has a 3:2 screen that I'm very happy | with) | jagger27 wrote: | Whoops, so it is. I agree that 3:2 is close to ideal in a | laptop form factor. | admax88qqq wrote: | Yup. | | In the end, wide vs tall makes less of a difference than | total size in inches and total number of pixels. | | Take your preferred 4:3 and add horizontal pixels under | 16:9, or your preferred 16:9 and add vertical pixeks | under 4:3, on either case you can fit more on the screen. | layer8 wrote: | 16:10 or 3:2 screens usually are not reduced in width | (compared to 16:9), but extended in height. For example, the | 16:10 counterpart of FHD is not 1728x1080, but 1920x1200. | (Historically, it's actually the other way around: When 16:9 | displays were introduced, those were cut-down versions of | existing 16:10 resolutions, with the same horizontal but less | vertical resolution.) | | If you're used to the extra height, even ultra-wide aspect | ratios such as 21:9 (or even wider) do not compensate for the | lost height compared to the corresponding :10 or :10.666 | height. | patrickthebold wrote: | So what's your opinion of a 4k UHD display? It's 16:9 but | twice as many vertical pixels as this laptop. | layer8 wrote: | It doesn't really matter, if the diagonal is roughly the | same and you use 200% scaling. The corresponding 16:10 or | 3:2 would still be preferable (or even 4:3, which was | once the standard aspect ratio for laptops). For a given | notebook width, you basically want as much height as | possible. | | For desktop monitors, it can be more of a personal | preference regarding FOV and window layout. For me | personally, I think a ~30" 16:11 [sic] would be close to | ideal. | smichel17 wrote: | I math'd this out recently and decided that ~16:9 | actually would be the ideal ratio for me.. On a ~42" 8k | monitor, using 2x scaling. | | I'm optimizing mainly for viewing three documents side by | side here. Having your primary document (e.g. text editor | or IDE) centered means you're not constantly turning your | head one way or another. And it has the added benefit of | working well for media (compared to 3 monitors in | vertical orientation). At 8k and that screen size.. the | aspect ratio doesn't matter as long as there's enough | vertical pixels and inches. | iratewizard wrote: | I found the same thing when 4k was first coming out on an | inexpensive hisense TV. It would be hard to go back to | only 2 or 3 side-by-side editing panes. | [deleted] | throwaway2037 wrote: | You said: <<On a ~42" 8k monitor, using 2x scaling>> | | Is this different from <<On a ~42" 4k monitor, using 1x | scaling>>? | | I am also _very_ picky about my screens. | azinman2 wrote: | Did I miss it or does it not mention battery life? | inetknght wrote: | I have a System76 Serval WS with AMD Ryzen 9 3900 and Nvidia GTX | 1660 Ti manufactured last year. The laptop's internal display | went wonky late last week but an external display still works | fine. It's annoying to reboot -- the GPU drivers aren't loaded | yet when the boot disk passphrase prompt is shown, so the | external display doesn't show the passphrase prompt (and | importantly: whether unlocking succeeded). It's within a 1-year | warranty for parts & labor. I'm currently talking to with | System76 support staff to ship it back for repair. The process | has, so far, been easy and straightforward. | | In the past they had pushed a driver update that disabled the | laptop display when multiple monitors are connected. I had | recognized the problem since their system drivers are open source | and was able to recommend & review a PR to fix [0]. It was nice | to see that patch go in. | | [0]: https://github.com/pop-os/system76-driver/pull/182 | NexRebular wrote: | How's *BSD support on these ones? | jandrese wrote: | The specs page is a bit vague in places. | Graphics AMD Radeon(tm) Graphics Storage 1 | x M.2 SSD(SATA or PCIe NVMe). Up to 2TB total. | | In the configurator you have to pay attention to the read speeds | to figure out if you are getting a SATA or PCIe drive. There is | no indication for which brand of drive they are using. I have a | few SSD controllers that are on my do not buy list, like anything | made by Sandforce[1] after we lost almost an entire lot of | computers to premature firmware failures and got absolutely no | support from the vendor for even just resetting the firmware and | starting over. | | [1] https://computerlounge.it/how-to-unbrick-sandforce-ssd/ | wmf wrote: | Sandforce hasn't existed for years BTW. Unfortunately the | general problem stands; virtually no laptop will tell you what | SSD you're getting. | scns wrote: | At https://tuxedocomputers.com another Clevo reseller like | System76, you can choose the SSD you want or even none and | put it in yourself. | | Disclaimer: contented customer | nicholasjarnold wrote: | > There is no indication for which brand of drive they are | using. | | Yes, though they tend to use quality parts. My 2019 Darter Pro | (darp5) was configured with a one of the NVMe options and | shipped with a 'Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus'. No complaints on | hardware quality or longevity so far. </anecdote> | neogodless wrote: | While you're right that the brand is not listed, every single | drive in the configurator lists NVME. The "Storage" | specification you show is just what the M.2 connection supports | as far as interface. So if you have an existing SATA M.2 drive, | or want to buy one to save money, you can. | | The graphics are integrated into the APU, so you can look up | their specifications. | | https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u | | https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-5700u | jagger27 wrote: | For graphics, the 5500U has 7 CUs at 1800 MHz. The 5700U has 8 | CUs at 1900 MHz. They're both ancient Vega APUs so they're | really nothing special. | heurisko wrote: | I have the 4500u with the AMD Radeon RX Vega 6. | | I know it's not the latest architecture, but I've found it | very capable for integrated graphics. | edoceo wrote: | Can you write code and use a terminal and web, two | displays? Can you use one big (4k?) | heurisko wrote: | I don't have anything that supports 4k, but it has no | problem connecting to anything via HDMI for two displays. | snovv_crash wrote: | I have a 4800u. I've plugged it into an external 4k | display and it had no issue pushing that around, as well | as the built-in 1080p at the same time. | neogodless wrote: | Obviously the "Linux-first" is a big value-add for this brand, | but the hardware for the price isn't amazing. | | $1200 gets you a Zen 2 (previous generation) 6-core, 12-thread | CPU[0], 8GB RAM, 240 GB NVME, 15" 1080p (did not see | brightness/color accuracy mentioned.) | | But I like my laptops to come with fast refresh and a dedicated | GPU, and I run Windows, so I'm not their target audience. Would | love to hear how this is received by those in the right market | segment! | | [0] A bunch of $600-700 laptops with this CPU: | https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u | jbluepolarbear wrote: | I just recently got this: https://www.newegg.com/pine-gray- | asus-zenbook-14-um425ua-ns7... and it's a great laptop. The | equivalent pangolin is nearly double the price. | avodonosov wrote: | What OS do you use with it? | jbluepolarbear wrote: | I use windows on it. Only my game server runs Linux because | I expose it to the internet. | webmobdev wrote: | Price does seem to be on the higher side. It does satisfy most | of my checklist though: | | - Does the hardware fully support Linux? _Yes_. | | - Does it have the latest AMD Ryzen CPU? _Kind of (last gen is | decent too)._ | | - Can you run other OS on it? _Yes._ | | - Is the screen glossy? _No (is matte / anti-glare)_. | | - Is the RAM soldered? _No_. | | - Is the RAM upgradeable? _Yes, upto 64 GB_. | | - Is the SSD soldered? _No_. | | - Is the SSD upgradeable? _Yes_. | | - Can the battery be easily replaced? _Yes_. | flatiron wrote: | Look at the framework laptop too | webmobdev wrote: | Yeah, a big fan of what they've designed - just waiting for | version 2 so that all the production bugs are discovered | and ironed out. Hopefully v2 will come with an AMD | processor. | fsflover wrote: | And at Purism. | techrat wrote: | It's all Clevo based anyway. System76 doesn't go much beyond | what they source. It's a shame, if they actually made the | effort to design a laptop that went beyond its foundation, I'd | be more interested. But instead it's Clevo guts, Clevo | problems. | | Looking at the AMD laptop linked... | | Lots of empty space that could have been slightly optimized for | a larger battery. It just seems basically thought out... not | like consideration is actually put into the design and layout. | baybal2 wrote: | It's not Clevo, it's Qinghua | fsflover wrote: | > if they actually made the effort to design a laptop that | went beyond its foundation, I'd be more interested. | | Have a look at https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 then. | indolering wrote: | Mine fell apart and the company is shady. | wmf wrote: | System76 can afford to design their own laptops _after_ | enough people order the existing models. | CameronNemo wrote: | System76 has been around for 16 years. If they wanted to | design their own laptop, they would have done so by now. | | Other companies like Purism, MNT, and Pine64 have gone way | further than system76 despite being much younger. | acomjean wrote: | You are right that's the value add. Not having to worry if the | hardware works and having a curated linux (popOS is very much | like ubuntu). | | I've had a system 76 onyx laptop running popOS for over 2 years | now. It keeps itself updated and I'm able to do my tasks with | very minimal system configurations. Firmware updates come | through fine. I think Linux hardware support is pretty good for | a lot of laptops, but for me it was worth the extra money not | to have to deal with it. | | My system 76 is "Clevo" OEMed machine. Very much evidenced when | I let stuff get in the fan and I had to replace it. Parts are | available. | | https://www.clevo.com.tw/index-en.asp | | As someone who is new to Linux on desktop, it was pretty great. | I got Unreal engine compiled, Intelij and It can even use | steam. My machine has a Nvidia 1060? so its actually pretty | decent for the limited gaming I do. | | Like many things, if things go well and this scales up, the | additional cost for having staff making sure linux is supported | should go down. | mariushn wrote: | $906 gets you Ryzen 7, 16GB RAM, 14", no numpad: | | https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?fq={!ex=733}lengs_Screen... | neogodless wrote: | That's not accurate. If you click through, it's a set of | laptops starting at $906. The model at that price is | | * AMD Ryzen(tm) 3 Pro 5450U Processor (4 cores) | | * 8 GB RAM | | * 128 GB storage | jbluepolarbear wrote: | Here's a better comparison. https://www.newegg.com/pine- | gray-asus-zenbook-14-um425ua-ns7... | noderblade wrote: | Wft is wrong with laptop market. Fhd on 15". While smartphones | usually comes with fhd+ and 4k on 6 inches. | peakaboo wrote: | Battery time is always much better if you avoid the 4k screens | and such. | noderblade wrote: | Its plain bs it has been tested on multiple platforms | yielding almost the same times. | | Also if pixel count would be an issue smarphones would also | go this way as they are more battery time critical. | jhanschoo wrote: | I find it a little weird when integrated graphics is mentioned as | prominently as such in marketing copy. "Ryzen CPU + Radeon | graphics = Mobile AMD laptop." | chludek wrote: | Pretty much no details about the display. What kind of panel is | this? What's the maximum brightness? How fast is the refresh | rate? How large is the color gamut? | pyrophane wrote: | If it weren't for that damn 16:9 display this would be a good | machine for me. | ruined wrote: | 1080p screen is a no-go. come on yall, it's 2021 | kaladin-jasnah wrote: | Well, (it's been a while so this might be really false now) | Linux might have not-so-great support for HiDPI screens. | | Either way, I can't really see the difference between 1080p and | 4K, so it wouldn't matter for _me_. | Aeolos wrote: | That might be correct when talking about _video_, but is | factually incorrect when talking about _text_. | | To understand why, just print an identical piece of text on | 600, 300, 150 and 75 dpi on your printer and look at the | printouts side by side. There is a significant downgrade in | quality between each step, and anything below 300 dpi looks | quite bad. | | 15.6" at 1080p is ~141 ppi[1] which is in the "not good" | range. Your OS attempts to salvage the situation by applying | font hinting (i.e. distorting your fonts to fit the pixel | grid) and antialiasing (subpixel on linux, grayscale on the | latest versions of windows & macos) - both of which are | imperfect workarounds for the lack of resolution. | | The MacBook Pro is ~217 ppi (1800p at 15.6"), which is better | but still not perfect. | | A 4K 15.6" screen works out at ~282 ppi, which is starting to | be good enough to finally turn off font hinting and view | fonts as intended by their designer rather than squished by | subpar display technology. | | [1] https://www.sven.de/dpi/ | bscphil wrote: | > both of which are imperfect workarounds for the lack of | resolution | | Imperfect, certainly, but they _are_ pretty good | workarounds that usually generate perfectly readable text. | In my experience, when text looks bad at 1080p, it is more | often because hinting has been done _badly_ , heavily | distorting the letter forms, rather than the inherent | limitations of the resolution. | | To be clear, I certainly prefer reading text at higher | DPIs, but at should be seen as one particular tradeoff to | be weighed against the heavier battery and graphics demands | of higher pixel count screens. | kaladin-jasnah wrote: | I understand what you're saying, but antialiasing, despite | its being a flawed workaround, seems to work well enough | for me that even when reading text on a 4K display it's not | a huge difference that I can notice it so much that it | bothers me (I used a 4K monitor for a couple of years). | Sure, 4K for text might be better, but it doesn't mean that | _I_ notice a difference. | cupofjoakim wrote: | Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient. The | upsides of not wasting battery and just performance of not | having to push more pixels makes it worth it. Even gaming | channels like LTT talk about this a bit. | | That being said - if you're coming from the macbooks retina | it's definitely a downgrade. My guess however is that this | device won't have a screen that is that good either way though. | orangecat wrote: | _Even gaming channels like LTT talk about this a bit._ | | The major benefit of high-DPI displays isn't for gaming or | graphics, it's for text. Once you're used to decent | resolution and scaling, reading on anything else looks like a | blurry mess. | approxim8ion wrote: | I think this is the key. I've never used very good or very | high-res screens for a sustained period of time, so I | haven't gotten used to it. Personally I'm not too keen on | jumping on them. My 1366x768 15.6" screen renders text just | fine for me. | bscphil wrote: | At 15.6 inches I think it depends pretty heavily on how good | your operating system's font rendering is. | | If you're stuck on Windows I can't imagine using anything | lower than 4k at that size. On the other hand, I'm using a | 17.x inch laptop currently, only about a foot and a half from | my face, at only 1080p, and it's fine. (Before you blame my | vision - I'm actually nearsighted. My vision is near-perfect | at this distance.) | | I certainly wouldn't accept this DPI from a current laptop, | of course; the font rendering certainly could be a lot better | and more density would be nice for easier photo editing and | so on, but I think a lot of people have forgotten just how | good 1080p can be if it's handled well in software. A whole | generation spent most of their time on crappy CRTs. Compared | to that almost any HD screen is an enormous improvement. | aidenn0 wrote: | Sweet spot @15" for me is 1200p if I can get it 1440p | otherwise. I haven't used a computer with less than 1200 | vertical lines since 2004 and I don't plan on changing it. | ciupicri wrote: | Gamers are known of playing at lower resolutions so they | would get more FPS. | ayushnix wrote: | > Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient. | | Considering what I've recently learned about the fractional | scaling mess, I would only buy laptops with a 1440p or 4K | display because they don't need fractional scaling. | | I really wish there were more 24 inch 4K or 27 inch 5K | monitors on the market and not the 27 inch 4K mess we're | getting. I'm not sure what monitor manufacturers are | thinking. | viraptor wrote: | What do you mean by " _need_ fractional scaling "? This | really depends on what you prefer, but I'm on 15" with 100% | scale and enjoy it. | ayushnix wrote: | Yes, I didn't take 15 inch laptops into account because I | have a 14 inch laptop. | | See my reply here. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28376008 | chrismorgan wrote: | 15.6'' 1366x768: 100ppi. It could be improved by 90% | scaling, but that doesn't tend to work quite so well. | Basically everyone uses it at 1x. | | 15.6'' 1920x1080 (1080p): 141ppi. Generally comfortable at | 1-1.25x, most will use at 1x. | | 15.6'' 2560x1440 (1440p): 188ppi. Generally comfortable at | 1.33-1.75x, most will use at 1.5x. Definitely uncomfortable | at both 1x and 2x. If you don't like fractional scaling, | you _don't_ want 1440p. | | 15.6'' 3840x2160 (4K): 282ppi. Generally comfortable at | 2-2.5x, most will use at 2x. | | These figures I'm suggesting are aiming for about | 110-140dpi. I have a 15.6'' 2560x1440 screen, and 1.5x | scaling mostly works very well, basically perfectly under | Windows which I never use and with only minor issues under | Linux/Sway with high-DPI XWayland patches once I've | manually intervened to fix a few variously broken things. | ayushnix wrote: | Hmm, I guess I didn't think about the 15.6 inch size in | laptops. I have a 14 inch laptop so I was thinking in | terms of that size. 1080p on my laptop needs 1.2 -- 1.3 | scaling to look "normal". I know people dismiss this as | personal taste but 1) IINM, Windows defaults to 125% | automatically on such a display and 2) I have a hard time | reading text without scaling my 14 inch 1080p display. | | Sure, people, resort to scaling just the fonts but | everything looks out of place if you do that. The fonts | are big but the UI elements are still small. | | Personally, I chose to compromise as well by scaling just | the fonts on SwayWM because fractional scaling introduces | slightly noticeable degradation of font quality which is | unacceptable to me. | | But yeah, in that case, 4K display on a laptop looks like | a safe bet so I would only go for that in the future. | Thanks. | chrismorgan wrote: | 14'' is an uncomfortable size for integral scaling: past | 1366x768 (112ppi), _all_ of the popular sizes call for | fractional scaling: in my rough guide of 110-140ppi, | that's about 110-140% for 1080p (so the 125% you cited is | good), about 150-190% for 1440p, and about 225-285% for | 4K. | | (13.3'' works better: 100% for 1366x768, 120-150% for | 1080p so no integer there, 160-200% for 1440p, 240-300% | for 4K.) | | Fractional scaling in Sway doesn't degrade quality in any | way in Wayland windows: it leaves the scaling to the app | to execute, and I haven't come across a single app | getting it wrong. Text will be rendered perfectly. Pixel- | precise stuff can be a tad funny, e.g. a 1px border on an | element in Firefox will be rendered as one or two device | pixels in most contexts. | | But then there's anything still using X11: without the | high-DPI patches, XWayland renders at 1x and scales it up | so that it'll look bad for _any_ scale higher than one, | whether fractional or integral. With the patches, you get | to decide what to do. | | On my 1440p 15.6'' display, I have scale 1.5 and xwayland | scale 3, which normally works very well, but I do have to | drop it to 1 occasionally for some things due to apps | that don't do scaling and the fact that the patches are | still imperfect and you can actually soft-lock apps when | they try to open certain windows (mostly popups, | including menus) until you drop the scale. | ayushnix wrote: | > Fractional scaling in Sway doesn't degrade quality in | any way in Wayland windows: it leaves the scaling to the | app to execute, and I haven't come across a single app | getting it wrong. | | Funny you say that considering Firefox goes haywire if | you use it on Sway with fractional scaling. | | https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/6432 | https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/6426 | https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/6147 | | Other Qt apps like Qterminal are also not able to show | tooltips normally if you enable scaling. Some Qt apps | which I absolutely adore like Spectacle and Gwenview | don't work at all though this might be a different issue. | | > But then there's anything still using X11: without the | high-DPI patches, XWayland renders at 1x and scales it up | so that it'll look bad for _any_ scale higher than one, | whether fractional or integral. With the patches, you get | to decide what to do. | | The unofficial XWayland HiDPI patches? Yeah, I'm not | gonna use them if they're official. It's a pain to | compile and build complex packages like these. The AUR is | fine for small and casual packages with a few | dependencies but nothing complex, I feel. | jm4 wrote: | I would have thought the same several years ago. At age 40+, | 1080p on a laptop is still good. Even at 1080p, I have to go | into accessibility settings to enlarge text. I'm pretty much | out of the market for 4k screens on laptops these days. Also | had to switch to a big phone and crank up the text size. | numpad0 wrote: | 4K on laptops should be a bless, not pain, with recent enough | Windows - you shouldn't need to try enlarging text by | lowering output resolution. That was a Windows quirk that | everything assumes 96dpi regardless of dpi. | driverdan wrote: | I'm 40 and the difference is very obvious to me. I have no | interest in any low DPI screens. | slantyyz wrote: | 50+ with bad eyes, and I think the difference between 4K and | 1080p is still very noticeable on a 15.6" laptop, in terms of | sharpness. | | Having said that, most people probably set the text | magnification on a 4K screen to be the same as a 1080p | screen, so any real estate gains tend to be a wash. | | Since getting presbyopia several years ago, I had single | vision glasses prescribed for using a computer. So when I am | using a computer, as long as the screens are around 21" to | 27" away from my eyes, everything is sharp. It sucks having | an extra pair of glasses (and remembering to swap them when | not using a computer), but I would go nuts if I didn't have | them. | ayushnix wrote: | > Having said that, most people probably set the text | magnification on a 4K screen to be the same as a 1080p | screen, so any real estate gains tend to be a wash. | | If someone's buying a laptop with a 4K display for real | estate, he's probably misinformed. You buy a 4K display on | a laptop for the pristine ~293 PPI vs a mediocre ~146 PPI | on a 1080p display which would look even worse considering | it would need fractional scaling while the 4K display would | work with integer scaling. | slantyyz wrote: | > 1080p display which would look even worse considering | it would need fractional scaling | | That depends on the OS though, right? I don't know about | Linux or Mac, but I'm pretty sure that if you scale on | Windows, you're still running at the native resolution, | but the UI elements get scaled. Nothing should look | weird. At least that has been my experience on Windows... | outside of apps that don't follow Microsoft's scaling | guidelines. | ayushnix wrote: | Yes, that might be the case, but I don't want to be | dependent on the implementation differences of different | operating systems. | | I like Apple's approach in this case. Enforce the usage | of HiDPI displays by default with at least ~200 PPI which | needs integer scaling. Instead of trying to work around | the issue, they simply bypass it, which is what I'll do | in the future. | chrisseaton wrote: | > Even at 1080p, I have to go into accessibility settings to | enlarge text. | | 1080p is about the resolution of the screen, not the size of | anything rendered on the screen. | pessimizer wrote: | A resolution far higher than the resolution of the eyes of | someone with bad eyesight, at a normal distance. | Rd6n6 wrote: | 1440p is the way to go. 4K is harder to sustain and you start | needing some scaling as well | jcelerier wrote: | a lot of computers being sold today are still 1366x768 | Koshkin wrote: | ... and 4 GB of RAM | zozbot234 wrote: | Nothing wrong with that for a lightweight Linux | dev/browsing machine. More than that just goes unused. | sofixa wrote: | Depends on your browsing habits. I often end up with | hundreds of Chrome tabs, which can easily result in 16GB | of RAM being consumed by it alone. Thankfully there are | plugins to automatically suspend unused tabs which help | with that. | yoyohello13 wrote: | I read this workflow a lot and it absolutely boggles my | mind how people can have some many tabs open. You can't | possibly be able to make sense of all those tabs at once. | And if your not using the tab, why not just bookmark it? | Seems the only purpose of 100+ tabs is wasting ram. | jcelerier wrote: | I have something like 80 tabs open from my morning alone | lol, 30/35 are some bibliography quest about a fairly | specific topic, a dozen about the various approaches to | fast sin & cos approximations, a few are mails & social | networks | sofixa wrote: | I have bookmarks, Pocket for "read one day", Raindrop for | more advanced "might be useful one day" bookmarks. I | still work on multiple projects, for work or personal, | more or less simultaneously ( as in the same week(s)), | and until I'm fully finished with something i don't close | the tabs related to it. Some things just get | blocked/stuck/lose their priority, for which case i do | the occasional cleaning. | | So just the stuff I'm more or less currently on, plus | articles to read "soon", plus mandatory work related tabs | (Jira, etc.) and it quickly explodes to 10GB+ of RAM. | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | With a browser that allows customization, you can | configure vertical tabs to fill up excess wide screen | real estate. Then you can credibly manage dozens of tabs. | sodality2 wrote: | As someone with a laptop like this, dev work in certain | situations (compiling heavy code, like systems languages) | is essentially unworkable. The ram is actually 3.33 GB | (memory is shared with GPU) and the CPU's are often dual- | core. Visual studio code escapes alright (somehow), so | maybe for light web dev work. But when my rust code takes | 8 minutes to compile and 20 seconds on a PC, it almost | makes it easier to compile once on my desktop and rsync | it over (so subsequent compiles are faster b/c | incremental compilation). This is just the reality of a | low end system, it's competent at web browsing and note | taking, and surprisingly I can last about 6-8 hours on a | ~$400 laptop. I certainly didn't expect a compiling | powerhouse, but I can literally install ripgrep in 26 | seconds and it takes about 7 or 8 _minutes_ on the | laptop. | | TLDR: Don't use with systems languages. Rust takes ages | to compile and I have almost switched to learning go just | because of it. Of course, I am expecting way too much out | of a laptop (systems programming? really?) but I didn't | expect it to be so terribly slow. | abledon wrote: | Isn't 1080p way better for battery life + its mostly | indistinguishable in pixels? unless you are like, looking | really close at the pixels? remember its 1080p inside a 15" | monitor, not a 24" monitor a PC has. | jagger27 wrote: | It's like no one here has used a MacBook before. They've been | putting 2560 by 1600 displays in 13" MacBooks for what, a | decade now? | bluedino wrote: | Mac OS doesn't have all the goofy issues that Linux and | Windows do when using hidpi/4k whatever screens. | sz4kerto wrote: | Windows has practically perfect hidpi nowadays. Also on | moderately hidpi screens (eg 4K 32"), MacOS is extremely | blurry. | as1mov wrote: | Eh not really, I've used the hidpi MacBooks for work, it | doesn't really make a big difference. | | I can tell the difference between a 1440p/4k and a 1080p | screen, but it doesn't bother me to the point where I won't | buy machines which don't have it, it's just a nice bonus. | SheinhardtWigCo wrote: | Very distinguishable after daily use of a MacBook Pro. | LAC-Tech wrote: | Yeah ok but this is a computer for hackers, not people who | decide what shade grey to make text on a website. | rsynnott wrote: | Realistically the main appeal of very high resolution | laptop screens is text, not images. The people doing | professional colour work typically aren't using any sort | of laptop screen. | noahtallen wrote: | High DPI is great for text. It's easier to read and way | more crisp. High DPI is about edges and lines and details | (like text), not colors! | chrisseaton wrote: | High resolution is particularly useful for people who | work on text all day - so hackers. | | I don't know if you're confusing it with high dynamic | range? This isn't about colour. | downWidOutaFite wrote: | My 16" Macbook Pro's display is certainly beautiful but the | battery life is pathetic. If lower resolution really did | save battery then I think I would make the tradeoff, | especially since everybody runs the resolution scaled down | from 3072x1920 so the only thing you gain from it is the | subpixel sharpness. | ngngngng wrote: | I have a 4k x1 Carbon and I can confirm that it's dumb. I | would prefer the battery life but also the iGPU isn't | powerful enough to run an external monitor while the display | is using 4k so I have to scale it down for that anyway. | akvadrako wrote: | Maybe older generations weren't powerful enough, but I use | the 7th gen (2019) to run a 2nd 4K external display and it | works fine. | | 4K is a little overkill for 14", but I wouldn't consider a | laptop below 3K. Definitionally not dumb. | ngngngng wrote: | What OS are you using? I installed PopOS onto mine and | maybe something there is the issue. We have the same | model and mine is maxed on specs but whenever I'm in 4k | and using an external monitor it becomes unbearably slow. | akvadrako wrote: | I run Ubuntu. Works fine in windows too. | okasaki wrote: | I wonder, can users who want better battery life on their | 4k laptop just run the screen in 1920x1080? | ndiddy wrote: | My biggest problem is the aspect ratio, on a laptop 16:9 | simply is not enough vertical space. Hopefully Clevo will | realize this at some point and make a laptop for System76 | with a 16:10 or 3:2 screen. | speedgoose wrote: | This laptop is clearly not designed for battery life though. | The battery is tiny inside. | MisterTea wrote: | If you spend a lot of time reading/typing text on a computer, | hiDPI helps as the text is a lot sharper. Though honestly I | don't care as much and find that 1080 is an acceptable | resolution for smaller screens (<= 22"). | ohazi wrote: | I have good eyes and strongly prefer wqhd (2560x1440) over | 1080p on my 14" Thinkpad, because I can just barely lay out | two windows side by side without stupid websites like Gmail | and JIRA getting too narrow, using my scale factor of choice. | With 1080p, I turn off scaling and it just doesn't work. Full | screen is too big, anything less than 2/3 is too narrow. | | I can easily get 10 hours of battery life with light use, | sometimes more (my system idles at around 5W unless I crank | up the brightness to excessive levels). | | 4k (UHD) on a 14" display is excessive, in my opinion. I | don't know what the power consumption is like, but at the | scaling that I prefer, the layout ends up looking identical | to my wqhd setup, only crisper. That would seem like a waste | of power. Shame all the recent T-series Thinkpads have gone | down this route. | zwayhowder wrote: | This! The wonderful world of reflowing webpages that | assumes anything less than 1080p is a mobile is so | frustrating. I too find WQHD a good fit for my 14" Thinpad. | Koshkin wrote: | Should be good up to 24" | kazinator wrote: | It's a 15" screen! For 4K to even begin to make sense, you need | a 40" diagonal, and with your face about a foot away from it. | (For a more detailed explanation, ask a local fifth grader.) | ohazi wrote: | 40" diagonal seems a bit extreme. | | I think my 27" 4k display is perfect. My dad has slightly | worse eyes and prefers his 32" 4k display, which I find | noticably grainier but perfectly serviceable. | [deleted] | [deleted] | Guest42 wrote: | Would ordering one of these with 32gb of ram lead to a | significant decrease in battery performance? | neogodless wrote: | Looks like the increase from 8GB to 32GB is going from ~3W to | 12W of power consumption. | | The CPU likely consumes 30-45W depending on configuration. | | So it's not trivial, all things considered. | kcb wrote: | Wouldn't that only really apply while doing intensive memory | accessing. Something that you would probably only be doing a | very small percentage of time. | fnord77 wrote: | no - simply refreshing memory state costs power. The DRAM | memory refresh cycle happens about every 60ms. In the | background, memory cells are constantly read and rewritten. | | Power consumption adds up pretty quickly. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_refresh | Synaesthesia wrote: | CPUS or SOCs these days can achieve quite low power states | when in idle, like aingle digit watts. | | Where do you get the 12w from? | Guest42 wrote: | Thanks for followup, I was curious if the ram was allocated | in blocks if sections could go unused. | | Right now I have 16gb and it's been great and I generally | don't put much pressure on it (except for some occasional | Android Studio virtualizing). | | However, it seems as though software resource usage has a | tendency to creep up over time so it seemed like more RAM | would be a safe option. I also tend to use the computer | more lightly when it's unplugged. | | I don't know much about hardware so all input is | appreciated. | neogodless wrote: | Just a preliminary web search. | | Here's one example: | | https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/how- | much... | | > As a rule of thumb, however, you want to allocate around | 3 watts of power for every 8GB of DDR3 or DDR4 memory. | High-performance memory such as Ballistix(r) parts can draw | more power, especially if you overclock the voltage beyond | XMP settings. | | Similar numbers here for slower DDR4-2133. | | https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel- | core-i7-5960x-has... | luke2m wrote: | I hope System76 adds a trackpoint/ pointing stick to their | laptops or maybe the launch 2. | m0zg wrote: | 1080p in 2021, targeting a "tech" audience? Good luck with that. | alkonaut wrote: | Most people who do tech work in the sense of using a computer | for most part of their days such as software devs (I hope) use | external keyboards and screens and mice anyway, 99% of the | time. AC adapter plugged in. With the WFH trend, this will be a | growing trend. | | I unplug the AC adapter and monitor to go over to someone's | desk or hold a presentation perhaps a few times a month at | most. I would not want to write code a whole day on even the | best laptop keyboard and the most crispy 4K laptop screen. | | There is a surprising lack of choice for laptops targeting this | mode of use though. For example the $3k Dell precision I have | now doesn't like being used plugged in for extended periods. | They put a category of battery in them that swells when heated. | So if you, like me, leave it on for say a year at your desk | (This happened during the pandemic) - it expands and the | keyboard and trackpad stops working. | | When you go for a "workstation" class laptop, the manufacturers | have crammed so much perf into an impossibly small package, | that it's screaming loud and glowing hot. Just make it twice as | thick with half the battery size and I'll buy it. | noncoml wrote: | I had a NUC(NUC6i7KYK) that no matter what I tried, I couldn't | make WiFi work reliably. Tried Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, tries | upgrading the driver blobs from Intel, nothing worked! | | Then one time for fun I tried Pop!_OS, and lo and behold, never | had a problem with WiFi again! | | Good job System76! | stakkur wrote: | I love the idea of System76. But the low budget keyboards on | their rebranded hardware don't do it for me. | | I heard they planned to manufacture their own machines recently, | but I'd rather buy a ThinkPad for the awesome keyboard than | gamble on whatever keyboard they're using now. | crossroadsguy wrote: | Honestly it does seem that a halo tax like Apple's is already | being added. | ksec wrote: | One thing I notice in this and Framework's laptop is how much | space we are trading for upgradability. Both SO-DIMM and M2 are | massive. I guess for 2TB option you need M2 2280 rather than the | 2242 variant. But SO-DIMM is just huge, and you need two of them. | Compared to M1 which has LPDDR5 within the package, and SSD | Controller Built in. | | We need something that combined the Dual Channel Support within | one Slot and at least half the width of SO-DIMM. | [deleted] | arnaudsm wrote: | This is an huge deal : the 5700U is faster than the Mac M1 at the | same wattage | https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MH... | hu3 wrote: | Now imagine if AMD could also use 5nm like Apple. | | Chip shortage is hurting a lot. | mercutio2 wrote: | If you have embarrassingly parallel loads, sure. | | But: CPU Single Thread Rating Apple | M1 - 3,778 AMD 5700U - 2,636 | | suggests that "is faster" is going to depend on your | perspective. Most loads _I_ care about are single threaded. | | The 5700U is 8% faster on a synthetic multi-core benchmark vs. | 30% slower on a single core benchmark. I know which CPU I'd | choose if I had a choice. | borgbean wrote: | I also doubt the AMD chip got those results anywhere near the | 15w TDP. I didn't find concrete numbers on the 5700U, though. | | I would take an AMD chip over the M1 in a desktop any day, | but not in a laptop. | ksec wrote: | It is even worst considering | | 1. The Max boost clock of 5700U is 4.3Ghz. Compared to M1 at | 3.2Ghz | | 2. The TDP of 5700 is Typical TDP, it doesn't actually take | into account of boost. Not that it matters in a single thread | performance comparison because it wont use 15W per single | core, but still relevant info to keep in mind. | | On the other hand this is a Zen 2 on 7nm compared to M1 on | 5nm. The Gap would be less if it was on Zen 3 and 5nm. But | even then my guess it would something like 3000, still quite | a bit to go to catch up with 3800. | mixmastamyk wrote: | We're lucky now to be in the ballpark. | throwaway2037 wrote: | Woah. Nice quote about "CPU Single Thread Rating". Can you | share a source? | | I can understand why there is this real push to reverse | engineer the M1 platform to get Linux running on it! The | efficiency per watt is amazing. | peter_retief wrote: | At 2000 usd it is too expensive for me. | | Is this a normal price for a new laptop? | | I am in the market for a new laptop and am a linux user. | approxim8ion wrote: | depends what you want to do with it, I guess. | | I have a laptop running Linux that cost me $400 in 2016. | Similar spec is $600 now. I'm fairly sure I can get by with | what I do (YouTube, streaming, documents, web programming) | fairly well with it. | lenkite wrote: | Display is still a boring old 1920x1080 FHD. Once your eyes get | used to the Macbook Retina display, it's difficult to downgrade. | melbourne_mat wrote: | Tough sell given the M1 MacBook air is $800 | stereoradonc wrote: | The DIY laptop (fixable) are also here: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28375184 | winter_blue wrote: | The price is a bit too high (as always with System76). Last year, | for the same price ($1,199) on sale, I bought a ASUS Zephyrus G14 | with a Ryzen 4900HS and RTX 2060. Right now, you get it (for a | bit more) with a 5900HS and RTX 3060. | | Both the 5900HS and the 4900HS will beat the low-wattage 5700U in | performance handily. The G14 has a 76 Wh, so despite the | "higher"-power (35 Watt) CPU, it'll still get a LOT of battery | life. | teekert wrote: | System76 is nice, in this podcast the CEO is interviewed: [0]. | He is dedicated to transparency, open source and privacy. | They're worth some extra money to me. Although I'm still | waiting for their custom designed, all aluminium top of the | line laptop :) | | [0]: https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/linux- | unplugged/id6875... | cassepipe wrote: | Is this custom design all-aluminum design on their road map? | I'd buy it, I'd order it next year and pay right now even. | The only thing preventing from buying one of their laptop is | I am wary of all plastic laptops that break apart after five | years although they are working perfectly. Basically I just | want a MacBook that runs Linux perfectly. | schaefer wrote: | I'll briefly share the link to much more detailed system | documentation. Including tear down/repair instructions: | | https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html | acomjean wrote: | Thats a pretty nice summary. Its pretty expandable | (ram/drives/wireless), and has a lot of ports. | mattl wrote: | I like their desktops, but their previous laptops have been such | painful generic Clevo machines. | Rd6n6 wrote: | What are system76 keyboards and trackpads like? I wish I could | touch one before having to decide whether to buy | john_yaya wrote: | I have a System76 Gazelle. The trackpad tends to freak out when | I reboot, issuing random clicks and cursor jitters - so I | usually have to reboot again, or deactivate the trackpad in | Ubuntu. Multiple firmware and OS updates haven't fixed this. | masterof0 wrote: | +1 on this, I got mine 2 years back, together with the fan | noises, this was the "features" that annoyed me most. Also | the Gazelle feels cheap, the keyboard is not terrible, but is | not great either. I wish they they have a better quality | case, a better keyboard, and a brighter screen panel. I have | not tried the other models, I hope to get my hands on the | Darter Pro, it seems promising. I think what System76 is | doing is pretty cool, I just wish their products were more | competitive. | trashface wrote: | I have an oryp5 (2019). The keyboard is ok. The numeric pad is | annoying though, as others have commented. I definitely prefer | my old mac which didn't have one. | | The touchpad is awful. Way too sensitive to palm touches, even | in windows - so it isn't just a linux driver issue. This might | be related to the fact that its off center but I think its just | lousy hardware. In linux I've tweaked both the touchpad area | (reduced) and threshold settings but its still barely usable | and I palm-touch constantly unless I hold my hand at an awkward | angle. | | Maybe this pangolin is better but I looked at the overhead | picture of the keyboard and it looks almost identical to my | oryp5. The touchpad may be upgraded hardware, so I don't know. | | I love what system 76 is doing, PopOS is great, but I really | wish they'd get off these Clevo laptops. The hardware just | isn't very good, IMO. | slategruen wrote: | > The touchpad is awful | | Have you tried it with Wayland? | trashface wrote: | No. | hellcow wrote: | I bought a system76 years ago wanting to support their open | source work. Maybe it's changed since (?), but mine had a Clevo | shell which meant it had a bad keyboard and a terrible | trackpad, with a cheap plastic feel and lots of flex. It's the | first laptop I ever replaced within a month... | | The keyboard was later recalled, so I swapped it out with a new | one they sent me which wasn't cut to the correct dimensions and | never fit (bubbling up in the center and leaving a gap around | the keyboard for things to fall into). | zingar wrote: | How's the trackpad? You'll pry my MacBook from my cold dead hands | unless you can give me a trackpad that is as good. | megous wrote: | Trackpad mechanics is just something to get used to, just like | switching to a keyboard with a different layout. | Annoying/frustrating at first, after a week you can care less. | | It's like the comparatively fucked up natural scrolling on | macOS, when coming from windows, or whatever it's called. Your | brain will accommodate. | mybrid wrote: | The thing about Lenovo is one can get a 4 year, on site, service | contract for less than $500. If a keyboard key breaks, no | problem, they swap it and come to your house. | | Over the hears I've had monitor pixels die. They don't care, | they'll replace it. | | And unlike with Apple Lenovo doesn't mind if you replace the hard | drive or other components yourself, the warranty is not voided. | protomyth wrote: | I wish a person could order one of these without the numeric | keypad. I deeply hate being off-center to the screen when typing | on these larger portables. | p1necone wrote: | I can't bear the thought of being forced to play roguelikes | suboptimally. | 83457 wrote: | I used to use keypad all the time so when I got first laptop | for work having one was my preference. I regretted that | decision as the keyboard was more narrow than it otherwise | needed to be. | | On a side note, I love the CM Storm Quick Fire TK keyboard I | have with brown switches. It has no arrow/home vertical area, | instead when you turn the numpad off the keys act like that | slice. I wish more keyboards were like it. Not sure why they | aren't. | aidenn0 wrote: | My wish for a laptop is one with the trackpad above the | keyboard instead of below and the keyboard at the bottom edge | of the case. I really don't like wrist-wrests on keyboards, but | with a laptop, I have no choice. | petepete wrote: | The only laptops I know with the keyboard at the front of the | base are a couple of Asus models, the Zephyrus and the | Zenbook. Both have the touchpad to the right of the keyboard | and a second screen above. | | Definitely an acquired taste and not the most portable of | devices. | 1MachineElf wrote: | Agreed. The least they could do, if a numpad really is | necessary, is put something of equal size on the left side. A | macro pad would be novel, or even just a left numpad so that | right-hand mouse users could enter numbers at the same time. | smegger001 wrote: | i wonder if splitting the alphabet portion of the keyboard | down the middle and putting the numpad in between would work. | It would look like some unholy abomination but may be more | ergonmoic | bartvk wrote: | I actually have this setup on my desk. Meaning, I have a | Kinesis Freestyle 2 (split keyboard) and in between, | there's an Apple trackpad. | reaperducer wrote: | They could do what Apple did 20 years ago: Make them modular. | | You used to be able to pop the trackball out from the right | side of the keyboard area, slide the keys to the right, and | then re-insert the trackball into the left side. | | Do the same with a num pad, instead of a trackball. And for | people who don't want the num pad, make available half-width | blank inserts to occupy the space on both sides. | nostrademons wrote: | I have a 2013 Pangolin and the keypad & touchpad are the worst | parts. They're decent machines otherwise, but the off-center | keyboard and touchpad with no tactile feedback make it very | hard to navigate around the interface. Looks like they might've | fixed the touchpad at least in this reboot. | baktubi wrote: | What! I can't imagine using a keyboard without a numpad. Any | numerical entry is wayyyy easier using numpad! | johnzim wrote: | I have no idea who thought this was a good idea. The trackpad | is even off to the left to accommodate it. | | I'm not a fan of symmetry for symmetry's sake, but I do think | some affordances for the human body might be a good idea. How | do southpaws enjoy this keyboard setup? | | The ergonomics of laptops are bad enough without stuff like | this. | yumraj wrote: | >The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it. | | Yes, that is the first thing I notice. Any laptop with an | off-center trackpad goes in the do-not-buy list. | istingray wrote: | Same here. I imagine hating it every time I open the | laptop. | unicornporn wrote: | Same here. Saw the lead image with and immediately thought: | no buy. No fancy specs in the world can make me accept bad | ergonomics. | lincolnq wrote: | I'd expect that the ergo costs of using a laptop at all | (short key travel, screen down from eye level) would | swamp the additional cost of having the keyboard off | center. After all, you can just crane your neck down and | sideways instead of just down :). | | Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work (who | cares about ergo) should invest in an external keyboard | and monitor. | mrinterweb wrote: | It sounds like you're advocating for a desktop system. I | usually dock my laptop, but I do like the flexibility of | detaching and sitting on the couch. When I'm using my | laptop, as a laptop, I like to feel comfortable. To me | numpads on laptops have negative value. | yumraj wrote: | > Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work | (who cares about ergo) should invest in an external | keyboard and monitor. | | FWIW, I've been using a 15" MBP as my primary dev/work | machine for over a decade and I've just become used to | it. Tried external monitor, keyboard a few times, but it | just doesn't work for me anymore. I mostly run in high | res mode, as opposed to the scaled _default_ mode and it | works well. This is also why the 13" laptops are not an | option for me, am eagerly waiting for the 16" MBP | _fingers crossed_. | overgard wrote: | Might just be a personal preference, I have two laptops (one | of them a system 76) with numpads because I highly prefer | having them. Macbook keyboards without them really annoy me. | Obviously peoples mileage will vary. | lathiat wrote: | As this thread is highlighting, in my experience there are | two kinds of keyboard users. Those that love their numberpad, | and those that never use it. There seems to rarely be people | in the middle. On desktops it mostly doesn't matter because | you can shift the keyboard over relative to the screen. On | laptops this translates into people completely loathing or | loving the laptop entirely :) | | Personally in the never use it camp, and hate these offset | laptops. Sometimes its because people do a lot of number data | entry spreadsheet style, I can understand that case a little | more, however even people that mostly type text I've seen for | example will like to enter IP addresses on the number pad for | no obvious reason. God speed IPv6 adoption :) | | On the other hand laptops are terrible for ergonomics and | daily usage anyway, it's unfortunately we've moved so far | into laptops from desktops and it doesn't seem so common to | dock them and use an external keyboard.. to my feeling mostly | because the screen ends up being too small once you push it | back to use an external keyboard so then you need an external | monitor and the cost and complexity goes up. | darkwater wrote: | > On the other hand laptops are terrible for ergonomics and | daily usage anyway, it's unfortunately we've moved so far | into laptops from desktops and it doesn't seem so common to | dock them and use an external keyboard.. | | Especially considering that nowadays "docking" is pluggin | in an USB-C cable from a monitor that: - is used as a large | external display - powers and recharges the laptop - acts | as an USB hub, with external keyboard, mouse and webcam. | | If I want I can go outside to have a meeting and when I | want to code, I go back to my home office. And when I | commute to the work office, I can work on the train. And | when I get there, I plug it in the same setup as home. Next | step would be having all of this wireless but it's already | near perfect IME. | | I just described my setup actually :) | sam0x17 wrote: | I think a lot of people just haven't learned to touch-type | the top number row. It was required for me to graduate to | the 6th grade in 2002 to get at least 35 WPM / 90% accuracy | on the typing test, and there were a bunch of numbers in | there so using the type row naturally was an important part | of this. I suspect people who have had similar experiences | would never use the numpad. The context switch alone causes | huge amounts of downtime. | trashtester wrote: | For me it's the other way. I have no issues embedding | nubers in the touch typing when typing normal text, but | if there are only numbers, accuracy will go down, unless | I bring my center down to the asdf line, which slows me | down a lot. | | I also did practice my musscle memory for the numpad in a | similar way to touch as part of typing scientific data | (back in the 90s). After a couple of weeks of that, my | speed on the numpad would be at least twice as high as | when typing numbers on the main keyboard. Also, accuracy | was high enough that I could reliably trust the output | even when not looking at the result (very close to 100%), | which is critical for many use cases that involve | numbers. | | Even if I spend 99% of my time on the regular keyboard | now, if I have to spend more than 5mins typing only | numbers, I will feel really frustrated without a numpad. | | Then again, I tend to use the laptop keyboards quite | little anyway, mostly only while travelling or when in a | meeting room. In the office, there is a dock and at home | I use a desktop. | the_pwner224 wrote: | > On desktops it mostly doesn't matter because you can | shift the keyboard over relative to the screen. | | It does matter. The arrow key cluster and numpad take a lot | of space, which means the left side of the keyboard (where | asdf / your left hand are) and your mouse have to be very | far from each other. This leads to either putting the | keyboard's letter key section in the center, making your | mouse be uncomfortably far to the right, or having your | mouse in a natural position for your right hand, leaving | your left hand way out to the left. Over time this can (and | did, to me) cause posture / muscle balance issues. | | Currently I'm using the Microsoft Sculpt Wireless keyboard. | https://www.microsoft.com/en- | ww/accessories/products/keyboar.... The main keyboard with | letters and two extra columns just to the right of the | letters (with no gap) means everything can be positioned | perfectly. The wireless numpad is there for when you need | to use it. It's a very overpriced product at $100 but works | wonderfully. | | Also, in college I had a tiny desk with a cabinet | underneath its left side, so my chair was offset to 60/40% | of the way to the right. With a full size desktop keyboard | with numpad, there literally wasn't enough space for my | mouse, unless I moved the keyboard very far to the left. | Thus causing the issues I mentioned above. That's what got | me into tiny mechanical keyboards :) I'll admit it's a | somewhat niche case, but there are probably still many | millions of people in the world with a similar desk setup | to that for whom a full size desktop keyboard is an | unhealthy option. | SkyMarshal wrote: | Agree, it's easy to carry around a plug-in numeric keypad if | you really need one. | Klonoar wrote: | >I have no idea who thought this was a good idea. | | You and many others probably know this, but figure it's | helpful context for others who might stumble through this | thread: it's not necessarily all on System76 as to why that | shell is used, since the shells themselves are (IIRC) | rebranded Clevo shells still. | | i.e I would suspect they're making use of what they can | reasonably acquire to sell. | | (The offset aspect would drive me mad as well) | caslon wrote: | Southpaw here! I'd never buy a laptop without a number pad. | The track pad being off-center is _also_ good. | | Gaming? 78462 make for the best movement, and the number pad | also has seven non-numerical buttons to bind things to. It | also puts your index finger _right_ next to lENTER, which is | _so_ useful for games that make use of it. | | Programming? Bind the buttons to commonly-used UNIX programs | to make for a better IDE than an IDE. | | Calculating? _So_ nice to have an ergonomic numerical input. | amelius wrote: | Ok, so the conclusion is that the keyboard should be | customizable. | reilly3000 wrote: | Yes. I don't know what trade offs that would entail or if | that should be something the user or factory would do, | but yes, absolutely. | caslon wrote: | No, the conclusion is that more buttons are always | better. You can _always_ customize a keyboard with | minimal effort, unless you 're on a really bad operating | system, like any of the proprietary ones. | evilduck wrote: | Hard disagree. I dont need more keys, I need better keys. | More keys just means more reaching and more strain. I use | the Preonic and would love to see layer keys on a laptop | instead of a stupidly big spacebar nobody ever uses | wasting so much real estate. | | I think the Framework laptop is our best shot at it | though. | Fnoord wrote: | > No, the conclusion is that more buttons are always | better. | | Not really. There was a time where laptops, especially | 15", had front speakers. If the choice is that or numpad, | I pick front speakers. Its a bummer smartphones don't | have them anymore these days. More keys might seem like a | no-brainer, but its always also less is more and keys you | don't use are useless keys. As power user, it seems | (re)binding of keys is in order anyway. | | 1080p and numpad is a downgrade from my MBP 2015. It also | doesn't specify much about the AMD graphics card. I'd | rather get a modular laptop instead, but with 1440p | minimum. | | The thing with a trackpad centered to left (let alone its | gonna be as good as a Magic Trackpad 2 by Apple from 2015 | and onward), is that if you use your right hand your arm | can get hurt if you let it rest. And, you should let your | arms rest. Also, the arm is in the way. Apple had a neat | solution to it: large(r) trackpad (though I prefer the | previous one, centered). | | But I was never in the market for this because if I order | something like this from USA I get to pay a large amount | of taxes on top of it cause the price never includes tax. | Let me know if its available in Europe and I'll have a | look, but the above remain serious concerns so I doubt | it. | caslon wrote: | My laptop has front speakers & a number pad. Keys you | don't use need to be rebound until you use them. | SilverRed wrote: | The iphone has a front speaker. The top one is a | loudspeaker and a normal phone one. And they tune it so | when in landscape I don't really notice the difference | between the front and outwards speaker. | | Phone speakers have come a long way since samsung was | putting them on the back of the phones.. | least wrote: | More buttons isn't always better because there's a | limited range of motion that is reasonable for someone to | type with. Having a number pad on a laptop keyboard | reinforces bad ergonomics because you either need to | shift your entire body to the left and have your screen | off center or you have a constant and pretty severe | lateral deviation in your right hand. | | As for customizing a keyboard with minimal effort... it's | actually easier to do that with MacOS and Windows than it | is in linux, in my experience. Sure, you can do basic key | remapping really easily in linux with xmodmap but if you | want to do anything complicated with the built in | keyboard, MacOS has Karabiner Elements which is far | better than any of the built in or custom keyboard | software like xcape or xkeysnail. Similarly on Windows, | AutoHotKey is much easier to do complex customizations as | well. I haven't really tried Kmonad but that is cross- | platform so it wouldn't really be considered an advantage | to linux. | albertgoeswoof wrote: | Yes the numpad comes in useful when I'm calculating all day | ImprovedSilence wrote: | I have a nice ten-keyless mech keyboard that I love to | use for programming. However I really do miss having a | number pad more than I thought I would. | Haegin wrote: | If it's programmable you could set up a layer with a | number pad on it. I've done that with mine and basically | never use the actual number keys now. | bbojan wrote: | Yup, I did this and it's great. I also ended up assigning | the thumb key to 0, since I've noticed it's used more | often than other digits (and also you have to fit it | somewhere, since the other ones are in a 3x3 grid). | LAC-Tech wrote: | If you were a real hacker you'd use it for playing | roguelikes in the terminal. | pmontra wrote: | Yeah, that was the last time I used a keypad. I really | hate mine. I don't have a use case for it and because of | it I have to slide the laptop to the right, to align the | keyboard with my vertical axis of symmetry. | | I understand that many people need it and many others | don't. I wish manufacturers had an option for keyboards | without the number pad. I'd pay an extra for it. | suprfsat wrote: | hjklyubn | viraptor wrote: | That would take over the usual [k]ick, [l]ook, etc. | luc_ wrote: | irony over text..? | Cederfjard wrote: | > Programming? Bind the buttons to commonly-used UNIX | programs to make for a better IDE than an IDE. | | Mind sharing some examples of your bindings? | caslon wrote: | My favorite (and the one I find myself getting the most | joy from using) is /, which I have bound to tangle and | weave my currently-open project (dbus, yay) into /tmp, | apply a stylesheet to the output of it, determine | languages used within, embed Emscripten-compiled | interpreters for the languages being used into the | generated pages (its file system API is incredible, "I | Can't Believe It's Not UNIX!"-worthy), and launch a | Mozilla instance so I can interactively play with/debug | my programs while reading their documentation in the same | window. | | If this sounds like a convoluted REPL with fancier in- | line documentation, you're _kind of_ right. It 's | basically just interactive and automated literate | programming, though. | | The rest of my bindings range from pretty simple (running | an open project's tests, displaying results from the last | 10 commits, etc.) to significantly more complex. I have a | few different xkb layouts depending on what I'm doing, | and a few different languages get dedicated ones, but for | the ones I most-commonly use, they all share one. | Cederfjard wrote: | Thanks! | ben-schaaf wrote: | Another big one is Blender; I don't think I could use it | without a numpad. | slezyr wrote: | You can, there is a setting for such cases | | https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/editors/prefere | nce... | grifball wrote: | You can buy a usb numpad for blender. I did this to save | money on a mechanical keyboard. | Shorel wrote: | Just put the damn thing in the middle. | stonecharioteer wrote: | I'd actually be into that. I come from the split | keyboards world. Put your god damned numpad in the middle | and give me ortholinear keys on each side. I will throw | money at you today. | atatatat wrote: | > I come from the split keyboards world. | | What terrifying place is that? (I'm just poking fun, but | seriously: where?) | rgoulter wrote: | Generally, hobbyist mechanical keyboards that you | assemble by buying or fabricating a PCB, and doing a bit | of soldering. Most designs have relatively easy | soldering. | | Some hobbyist shops may offer assembly services. If you | don't want to solder, ZSA labs have a "moonlander" | keyboard that looks quite nice, for a premium price. | | If you're not put off by soldering, then some popular | split keyboards would be the Corne (also known as | "crkbd"), Kyria, lily58, Sofle. | | There are also designs which are closer to a normal | keyboard, like the ultimate hacking keyboard. (But, | personally, I don't understand why you'd spend so much | money on a keyboard and have it be asymmetric). | masklinn wrote: | Surely the origins of split keyboards are ergo spaces not | hobbyist? | [deleted] | least wrote: | Split keyboards have been around for quite a while. You | can even see the Kinesis Advantage keyboard featured in | films like Flubber and Men in Black and plenty of | companies have made ergonomic keyboards. | | I think there's a sort of hobbyist renaissance going on | right now, though. Plenty of new keyboards are being | designed and built because it's more accessible than ever | to design your own pcb or if not that to get someone | else's design printed, which along with the general | mechanical keyboard enthusiast market, has given people a | wealth of options to choose from. | Symbiote wrote: | I maintain a gallery of split keyboards for people to see | what's available: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split- | keyboards/ | | Discussed here previously: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26179311 | jjoonathan wrote: | I love numeric keypads. I don't have to type in big chunks of | numbers very often (OCR and GPIB go a long way) but when I | do, numeric pads make me hate life a lot less. | stavros wrote: | I have a custom keyboard I designed, and I configured it so | that the tilde key turns the right-hand side into a numpad | (ie the yuiohjkl etc keys). It's great, no need for extra | unused buttons and very convenient to use (as the left hand | is typically not used when typing on the num pad). | kej wrote: | I used to have a Sony laptop like this, where NumLock | turned the uiojkl keys into 456123, so you could use them | (along with 789 above them) as a number pad. It was a | clever design and I wish more laptops offered it. | innocenat wrote: | I thought almost all laptop before 2010 is like this | though. It was normal back in the day. | Koshkin wrote: | I prefer the hidden one. | | https://www.dummies.com/computers/pcs/the-hidden-numeric- | key... | alias_neo wrote: | I don't own a single keyboard with a numpad, it's utterly | useless as a left-handed person. All of my mechs are TKL or | less. | | I built a numpad once but found I'm so used to not having | one, even positioned on the left, it wasn't much use. | folli wrote: | TIL that left-handers are also called southpaws. | syshum wrote: | I buy 15in Laptops specifically for the 10 key num pad. I | type on my keyboard all day offset with no issues. | loudtieblahblah wrote: | i deeply hate being without a numpad. I understand it's | duplicated space, but typing numbers on a numpad is just a | million times faster than going above the alphabet keys. | xxs wrote: | actually i use the numpad for arrows (and virtually dont need | a mouse in a decent IDE, once I reprogram the shortcuts). I | don't recall having a numpad lacking keyboard and a laptop in | the last 15y+. | aendruk wrote: | A virtual numpad via a modifier key can be the best of both | worlds; no extra space is used and your hands stay in the | center. | | Example with image: https://andrew.kvalhe.im/2021-03-19 | | With this method you can customize the location and | surrounding mathematical operators. | nyanpasu64 wrote: | In my limited beginner experience (rarely use numpads, | mostly in Blender, or virtual numpads), it's awkward to | turn virtual numpads on and off, I keep forgetting which | state the keyboard is in, and it's hard to read the grayed- | out key labels to figure out which normal key maps to the | numpad key I want. | admax88qqq wrote: | Sort of. But it's not ortholinear like most numpads and | lacks the addition keys like a big Enter key, and the | various math operations. | | It's an impoverished numpad that requires different muscle | memory that you probably don't use often enough to master. | | Personally I never use the virtual numpad on my devices, I | use the full numpad if available or I usr the top row of | number keys. | scintill76 wrote: | How many digits long does it have to be to pay for the time | to move your hand to the numpad and back? | dragontamer wrote: | About 4 digits IMO. | | The "5" key on most numpads has a bump so I can reach it | without even looking at a keyboard I'm familiar with. Any | 4-digit security pin I use is entered from numpads. | | I always buy a laptop with a numpad. Its my preferred | method of typing numbers. There are also a whole slew of | video game applications, as well as Blender movement | (camera angles, camera movement, etc. etc.) that's highly | intuitively mapped to the numpad. | | ------ | | I should note that when I was practicing for the video-game | community "Blazblue", all movements were discussed in terms | of numpad. 236 is quarter-circle forward. 69874123 is | "360-degree circle, counterclockwise, starting with right". | | Needless to say, typing a combo such as 5b 5c 2d 28d 28 b c | b 8 b c 236c 2d was much easier with a numpad. | | Anyone who wants to "decode" the button pushes only needs | to look at their numpad to see how their left-hand should | move, with "b, c, d" being the keywords for the right-hand | buttons in Blazblue. Street Fighter players use lp, mp, hp | (light punch, medium punch, heavy punch) instead. So those | bits get game specific, but the numpad approach to | discussion is basically considered superior. | Aperocky wrote: | Reading this makes me want a brain type interface. | flemhans wrote: | The bump may be ok for new keyboards you didn't try | before but quickly become irrelevant after a few days. | You know where the keys are then. | dragontamer wrote: | I disagree. | | The bump on the j-key on the keyboard, and the 5-key on | the numpad is very much clear to high-speed typing. | | On keyboards without bumps, I find myself off-aligned. | Instead of typing "jumping jellyfish", I type "hynoubg | hekktfusg", and have to realign my hands. | | Could I do it without the bump? Probably. But having the | bump there (both the j-bump and the 5 bump) is very | useful at preventing this mistake. | andrepd wrote: | You can get a cheap external numpad. | Aperocky wrote: | is it? I don't think it's any slower than typing other | characters. | baron_harkonnen wrote: | I haven't had a full keyboard with a numpad in years, but | if you ever worked in any data entry job in your career and | learned to properly touch type on the numpad it is wildly | faster than touch typing with the regular keyboard and | needing to use two hands to reach all of the numbers. | | I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the | off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is | why there is such a divide. | wott wrote: | > _I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while | the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers | which is why there is such a divide._ | | Ah? I would have thought the opposite. I cannot touch- | type at all (and you could promise me a million dollars | reward, I still wouldn't manage), nevertheless there is | one part of the keyboard I can use without looking, and | it is the numpad. Possibly because it is a limited area | with a limited number of keys, and the numbers are placed | in a "logical" order (compared to letters on the main | part of a keyboard). | | I am bad at entering numbers on the top row, a I am | forced to do on most laptops (and unfortunately, I | personally find the pseudo-numpad, which requires using | the Fn key or similar, utterly unusable; I never could | get used to it). | somethingwitty1 wrote: | I did data entry for a job. In my experience, the numpad | was considerably faster and accurate. It has been a long | time, but I recall it cutting down entry time by ~5-6x | (yes, I finished my daily quota in about an hour or two, | instead of all day). The advantage was being able to use | multiple fingers comfortably, without looking (there is a | nice nub on most numpads) and leaving a hand free for | letters/tabs. But like anything, I'm sure there are people | that would have a different experience. | Aperocky wrote: | Interesting, though data entry feels like something that | should have been automated (even if source is paper). | raffraffraff wrote: | If you work in a bank, entering deposits and withdrawals all | day. Or a shop that doesn't have a barcode reader. Or if | you're an accountant. I suppose you could also argue for a | special programmer's pad too. I mean, I play the odd FPS and | I'm still happy with WASD so I'm definitely not gonna | understand. | xxs wrote: | ...or if you are use it for navigation, along with enter. I | never use the numlock but I do use the numpad. | protomyth wrote: | I guess I spend much more time doing regular typing and being | off-center really makes it painful (old HP laptop). | | I did buy a wireless numeric keypad at one time that had some | extra keys and arrows that made data entry really fast. | vzaliva wrote: | They definetely need such option for people like me. For me, | wasting such a big chunk of my keyboard for keys I never use is | a no-go. | TrispusAttucks wrote: | Totally Agree. | | This is really unfortunate unless they are going hard for the | "Accountant" demographic. | | * FWIW: Typing this on a System 76 machine with a [1] TKL | mechanical keyboard. | | [1] TKL / Tenkeyless - | https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/tenke... | forgotmypw17 wrote: | Every laptop keyboard sucks in its own way. | | Only the external standard layout will really do for look-free | pressing of all the useful keys. | | So I stopped expecting anything beyond a couple minutes out of | laptop keyboards and always carry a standard-enough 104-key. | | I first began this practice when I had a laptop with a few | missing keys, but soon I realized how much better an external | keyboard is, and how little extra weight it adds to my bag. | nawgz wrote: | As someone who just ordered a 60% and found themself amazed at | how usable it was - even missing classic keys like the arrow | keys - I also can't believe they would go for numpad. Very | oldschool for such a modern product. | lupire wrote: | It's not a modern product on the hardware side. System76 | hardware is generic Clevo kit. | lupire wrote: | The trick is to put a sidebar window on the right ao the | keyboard feels centered. | | How often do you _type_ into a full screen window? | sasavilic wrote: | I too hate numeric keypad and being off-center. Especially when | you need to keep notebook on lap. | | But it is really hard to find notebook without numpad these | days. Especially hard if it needs to work with linux out of the | box. | superbaconman wrote: | I use a tenkeyless on my desktop for exactly this reason. I | could always shift a normal keyboard over to center it, but | then my mouse is way off to the side. | jjtheblunt wrote: | if you put a trackpad to the left, the keyboard centers! | maple3142 wrote: | I really hate using laptop without numpad because there are 9 | digits in my email address. It is much faster to enter it using | a numpad. | sam0x17 wrote: | Can't you just use the top row? I type numbers much faster | with top row than numpad. As a result I never touch the | numpad. | maple3142 wrote: | The digits in my email are "741852963", which is much | easier to type on a numpad compared to top row. IIRC, I | used a numpad to type those digits when I registered my | email. | baron_harkonnen wrote: | I'm curious do you touch type, and, if so do you also touch | type on the numpad? | | I suspect the divide here is between people that are touch | typists w/ experience in numeric data entry and people who | still need to look at the physical keyboard to type. | | As a touch typist I've never particularly cared where the | keyboard is, and while I haven't used a numeric keypad in | years, I still miss having one. | ohazi wrote: | I switched from Lenovo's 15" T-series to their 14" models | because of the goddamn numpad. | | I guess now I could look at the X1 extreme, because that has a | 15"/16" display and no numpad. | throwaway9980 wrote: | It's oh so terrible isn't it? I feel like this is one of those | flexible majority things that Nassim Taleb talks about [1]. The | vast majority of people don't care one way or the other. There | is a small minority who wants the numeric keypad and an even | smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will | never buy a laptop that includes one. For me, it's always been | yet another selling point for the Macbook. | | [1] https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the- | dict... | throwaway-jim wrote: | The trackpad is not centered. I'm the small minority that | won't touch a laptop with an off centered trackpad. It's very | uncomfortable for me as I use my right hand. Ideally | manufacturers should make a large touch screen/surface that | covers the entire area below the keyboard. We have the | technology, it can be done. | clipradiowallet wrote: | > smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will | never buy a laptop that includes one | | I'm in this minority! Why don't people use the top-row | numbers!?!? | syshum wrote: | I would prefer a keyboard with out the Top row of numbers. | Those are pretty much useless. | | So much so that I often use AHK to remap the top number row | to be other functions. | Dylan16807 wrote: | You find the entire _row_ useless? Do you set up a | special modifier for those symbols, or what? | tcoff91 wrote: | Useless? Did you never learn how to touch type the | numbers? Unless you do data entry the top row numbers are | vastly quicker to get to than the number pad. You just | reach a finger out and tap instead of moving your whole | hand to the number pad. | SilverRed wrote: | Some programs like blender treat the top row numbers as | totally different things (actually numbers vs camera | movements) and for people typing a lot of numbers, the num | pad is faster apparently. | jiggawatts wrote: | You interact with a computer only through the screen, speakers, | microphone, and keyboard. | | So of course, the advertisement for every laptop emphasises | internal component metrics that don't actually matter that | much. "Now with X8-7820Z SUPER!" or whatever. | | Instead they have terrible screens, tinny speakers, noisy | microphones, and non-customisable keyboard layouts. The latter | of which are always cramped, and I mean _always_ , even on 17" | laptops. | | Do you have any idea how cheap it would be for these | manufacturers to allow you to _choose_ your keyboard layout? It | 's a removable tray already! They can be swapped out in | seconds! There are multiple keyboard layouts available from the | parts manufacturers! | | Can you order such a thing? No. | Haegin wrote: | I believe the Framework Laptop offers that, though it's very | new and the non US keyboard options are available yet. | They're aiming for a pretty decent list by end of year | including UK, French, Chinese, Korean, German and blank (both | ANSI and ISO). | | https://frame.work | | (I'm in no way affiliated, just eyeing them up for my next | laptop purchase) | aorth wrote: | I'm in no way affiliated with Framework either. Just saw it | mentioned few times in tech press recently. Finally watched | some video reviews today and have to say I'm _very_ | impressed. Definitely eyeing them as a replacement when my | ThinkPad turns four years old next year. | georgewsinger wrote: | If you're into "Linux-first" computing, you might also be | interested in SimulaVR's "Linux-first" portable VR headset: | www.simulavr.com | | It will run with an 11th gen Intel compute pack (x86 ), and have | premium specs (roughly double the resolution of the Valve Index). | | Turning it on will boot you into SimulaVR's VR window manager | (built over the Godot game engine) with hand tracking. All open | source. | | It's intended to be more comparable to a Linux laptop (like | System76) than a VR gaming device like the Quest. | make3 wrote: | "10x more productivity" ... | georgewsinger wrote: | It depends on what you're comparing VR to (small laptop, | larger/multi-screen rig, etc), and how you use it (e.g. | https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2016/05/18/immersive- | single-...). | | Working in VR provides an enormous virtual space for | immersive work, and can for the right person be actually 10x | more productive. | rvz wrote: | Would have been a go-to viable option had it not been for the | Framework Laptops and the Apple Silicon lineup. | | I doubt the battery life on this thing is going to last a single | day or even more than 12 hours compared with the Apple Silicon | laptops out there or even the upcoming M1X Laptops. | | Hence this, I am in no hurry to rush into buying this contraption | and will just skip it for the alternatives. | Thoreandan wrote: | Unfortunately, it looks like <https://tech- | docs.system76.com/models/pang10/README.html> the Pangolin line | has several non-open blobs in the firmware, so it's unclear if | you can disable the AMD Platform Security Processor. | | The only available tech specs seem to be for pang10 not pang11 | hardware, maybe this will change. | jmclnx wrote: | Very nice, no Nvidia which for me is a big plus. | vizzah wrote: | When typing, my right fingers always resting covering 4 arrow | keys (provided it's a full-sized keyboard and arrow keys are | separated from the rest with enough blank space). I use right | fingers to reach Home/End/PgUp/PgDn buttons, INSERT/DEL on | numeric. So it's quite useful to have them all close-by. | anjel wrote: | Since the customer is always right, make it a mechanical keyboard | as your centering it, please. | holri wrote: | What non free drivers / software are necessary to run this | laptop? | Fatalist_ma wrote: | Uhh I understand that good Linux support is valuable, but the | price premium for that is just too high. | | For the base variant(5500u, 8gb, 240gb): | | Pangolin - 1200$ | | Lenovo Ideapad 3 15 - 430$[1] | | For a higher-end variant(5700u, 16gb, 500gb): | | Pangolin - 1542$ | | HP 15z - 640$[2] | | I admit these are the absolute cheapest ones I could find(using | noteb.com), but even the more premium laptops like Thinkpads are | way cheaper(and AFAIK they also provide very good Linux support). | | [1]: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lenovo-Ideapad-3-15-15-6-AMD- | Ryze... | | [2]: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp- | laptop-15z-ef2000-touch... | asddubs wrote: | do ideapads actually have good linux support? Compared to a | thinkpad it's cheap, those seem to start at 2 grand these days | Fatalist_ma wrote: | Not sure about Ideapads. | | Thinkpads with AMD cpu-s are not that expensive: https://www. | bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1645679-REG/lenovo_20... | | Same specs for 40% less than Pangolin. | asddubs wrote: | interesting, I was recently on the lenovo website and | couldn't find a single thinkpad for under 2 grand. I guess | they just hid them well. | luke2m wrote: | My Ideapad Flex 5 runs great (Ryzen 7 5700u), but fingerprint | and autorotate do not work (yet). Otherwise, it is completely | stable and everything works. | istingray wrote: | Good Linux support is _rare_. Name one other USA vendor besides | System76 or Purism that is Linux-first. | | Linux is at best a side project for Lenovo and Dell. | nobody10 wrote: | Just picking on "Name one other USA vendor besides System76 | or Purism that is Linux-first." | | Kubuntu Focus - https://kfocus.org/ | istingray wrote: | Pick away!! The more the merrier. | ksec wrote: | That is the problem with basically any commodity market. The | margin are so thin, it sort of hard to compete without the | economy of scale. Not to mention the selling point of Linux | support doesn't exactly have a large TAM. | vbuterin wrote: | > Thinkpads are way cheaper(and AFAIK they also provide very | good Linux support) | | My own experience with thinkpads has been one of non-stop | frustration with battery life. The T495 advertises something | like 14h of battery life; the actual battery life I got running | stock Ubuntu on it was.... less than 3 hours, and that's with | power optimization packages that do things like making USB no | longer work installed. I recently switched to a system76, and | so far its battery lasts easily 6-9 hours depending on what I'm | doing. | sascha_sl wrote: | The T495 is s special kind of disappointment (I have one | too), but the fault is with AMD. Zen 1 mobile has extremely | aggressive C-States and they essentially never clock down. | Ryzenadj helps a bit, but not much. | | I have a P14s Gen 1 from work now, that's one gen ahead but | an entire different league in battery life (and it wouldn't | cook your fingers on the palm rest) | | Newer kernels have helped a bit too, much more than TLP, if | you still have that device try Fedora on it. | ncphil wrote: | My experience too: until I got an X250 (i5, 2 core) earlier | this year that lasts around 10 hrs on a charge. Cost $160 in | mint condition. Noticeably less powerful than my old T430, | but can still do some real work on the go. Screen and | keyboard are seriously cramped though, so it gets | uncomfortable over long stretches. Still, there's something | to be said for small and light. My work laptop is a big heavy | Dell workstation machine that could double as an offensive | weapon in a pinch. | kleiba wrote: | I've got an E470 with Ubuntu on it, no problems with | battery life. | Mikeb85 wrote: | Yup. Hard to pick this over a Dell XPS or a ThinkPad with | Linux. Nevermind many other options that Linux can be installed | onto. | avl999 wrote: | On the System 76 website, this laptop upgraded to 16 Gigs of | RAM comes at at $1288 for me. | | Which Dell XPS with equivalent specs at 15 inch screen is | cheaper let alone considerably cheaper? I can't seem to find | on the Dell website https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell- | laptops/sr/laptops/xps-... | | Gets even worse with 32 Gigs RAM- the cheapest Dell XPS is | ~$500 more that this machine specced out to 32GB RAM | https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell- | laptops/sr/laptops/xps-... | cbsmith wrote: | The XPS won't have AMD, and the Thinkpads with Linux pre- | installed are pretty limited. | Mikeb85 wrote: | Lots of cheaper, equivalent laptops have AMD. The new Intel | processors and GPUs are nice. The System76 is overpriced. | istingray wrote: | There are no other Linux-first vendors besides System76 | and Purism. Dell and Lenovo seem to put up with Linux as | a side project. | lighttower wrote: | Before you conclude that Thinkpad have good Linux support, go | on over to lenovo's Q&A forum and look up battery issues for | the t14. At this point in time I've spent so much time on this | that I could have easily saved 5k or 10k by having a machine | that just worked! | darthrupert wrote: | Yep. That's how Apple hardware is dirt cheap. | OJFord wrote: | If you want to run Linux though, battery life is the least | of your problems with (post.. was it 2016?) Apple hardware. | kongin wrote: | >but even the more premium laptops like Thinkpads are way | cheaper(and AFAIK they also provide very good Linux support). | | This has not been the case in 5 years. | philliphaydon wrote: | What isn't the case? They don't provide good support for | Linux or they aren't way cheaper? Cos AFAIK both of those are | true. | yisonPylkita wrote: | Yeah, good luck updating firmware of your docking station | or using DisplayPort's from it under Linux | 3np wrote: | After ~10y straight of ThinkPad T-series, I won't be getting | another one. The BS you have to go through to get firmware | updates with important security and bug fixes is ridiculous. On | paper they're in fwupd/LVFS but in practice it've very spotty. | After a full day of trying other approaches, I eventually | succumbed to installing Windows and Lenovo's adware-encriched | update manager on a spare SSD just to be able to use my | Thunderbolt port with my official Lenovo dock. | | On top of that, every series have been getting worse and worse | maintainability/extendability/serviciability for pretty every | generation. The latest vanilla T-series are comparable to the | first-gen Carbon-X1 in this regard. | | ...Now if only System76/any of the others in the open-laptop | space could figure out a way to do more than 1080p on a 13-15" | panel. It's 2021 and I can buy a decent 2K 10.1" USB-display | online for $200, why are there no options for that many pixels | on a new customizable laptop starting at $1200? | [deleted] | tempest_ wrote: | I don't know about the quality of the pangolin or the HP but I | can tell you that lenovos consumer level laptops are pretty | trash quality wise. | | The thinkpads (at least the X,T and P models) tend to be a | different story but even that is changing in recent years | smoldesu wrote: | Really? I bought an Ideapad for my mom a few months ago and I | was pretty impressed with the build quality. It was plastic | (as all $450 laptops are) but felt relatively rugged, and the | internals were surprisingly open too. I was rather happy with | the thermals too, there wasn't much we could throw at it to | make it sustain uncomfortable temps. | deepsun wrote: | Plastic laptop cases are objectively better than metallic | ones. Plastic doesn't heat up your legs that much, and good | carbon plastic is stronger than steel, weight-wise. | Subjectively, metallic feels better though. | smichel17 wrote: | What about by volume? Also, stronger meaning what? | There's a combination of factors here: not just whether | it breaks, but also how (dent vs crack..). Also, how well | it ages. Also, how much flex does it have and how does | that affect the lifespan of the internal components? | | I don't know those answers; perhaps carbon plastic wins | on all metrics. It would be interesting to learn. | xxs wrote: | >Also, stronger meaning what? | | Usually tensile strength. For example: Tensile strength: | even a commodity PA6-GF30 (most half-decent tools are | made of) is ~110MPa [according to ISO 527], cast Aluminum | - would be ~150MPa (22K psi for the imperial folks) | depending on the alloy. | | Of course, most laptops would be using an ABS blend, | which is the hallmark low-quality tools. | | >Dents | | That would depend on the top finish, not so much of the | material itself. | OJFord wrote: | > >Dents | | > That would depend on the top finish, not so much of the | material itself. | | Would it? If I dropped an aluminium bodied laptop like a | Macbook or HP Envy, I'd expect it might scuff and | slightly dent at the point of impact. If I dropped the | cheapest plastic bodied thing from | Currys/Walmart/whatever, I'd expect it might scuff and | crack the plastic between screws or something. | | What top finish would you apply to a cheap plastic laptop | to make it 'ding' like aluminium instead of crack in a | drop test? | 3np wrote: | Only "objectively" by your priorities. The fact that | metal heats up your legs is also a benefit (e.g. better | heat transmission = better performance and component | lifetime in the same environment). | | As someone else noted, "strength" in material is not one- | dimensional. Carbon plastic is still way more conducive | to cracking, for one. | | Ergo, there is no "objectively better" choice between | metal/plastic/carbon in the general case, it comes down | to preferences, priorities and requirements. | YetAnotherNick wrote: | Now, report the battery life of that after an year of use | kitsunesoba wrote: | Just an anecdote, but I know someone who had an Ideapad | gaming model and while it seemed solid brand new, a year or | so in it started falling apart and by year two it was | looking ragged just from normal usage, mostly at home on a | desk or a lap (so no wear from travel or being knocked | around in a bag). | | The issue seems to be less with structural design and | particular choice of plastics that cause them to not hold | up to wear. | 3np wrote: | On the flip side of this, I have an old 710S and apart | from the now completely unusable micro-HDMI port it's | held up really well throughout use and abuse over the | years. Battery life holds up as well. | | If only it had a less brittle video-out and TB it would | be close to perfect even today, but these to otherwise | minor factors unfortunately make it close to useless | apart from as a spare travel device. | mark_l_watson wrote: | I am using a Lenovo Duet Chromebook (has good Linux container | support) right now, and it is cheap and has good build | quality. It is not particularly fast but it was about $260 | including pen and keyboard case. | luke2m wrote: | They have gotten a lot better recently in my experience. | zumu wrote: | > The thinkpads (at least the X,T and P models) tend to be a | different story but even that is changing in recent years | | Maybe relative to Thinkpads of yesteryear, but in comparison | to the field of professional laptops, they are still best in | class. | m00x wrote: | I bought a consumer-grade Lenovo (Flex 15") for about $1200 | CAD. | | While it has amazing components like the AMD Ryzen, Radeon | GPU, etc. The quality of the rest of the components is | trash. | | The trackpad keeps disconnecting, the screen is very poorly | backlit, the speakers sound like headphones that came with | 1990 Walkmans. It's not a good laptop even if it looks good | on paper. | zumu wrote: | Yea, I've heard mixed things about IdeaPads. My comment | was specifically about _Think_Pads. The names are easy to | confuse but are very different in build quality. | LMYahooTFY wrote: | I wonder about AMD support, I've been running Pop OS on a | Thinkpad A285 for a while and the computer freezes pretty | consistently. I'm not sure if it's related to video playback but | it seems like it might be a pattern. | | I've tried multiple kernel versions to no avail. | msravi wrote: | Nice specs. I wonder why they don't offer 1x16G (instead of 2x8G) | or 1x32G (instead of 2x16G) RAM options though - that would leave | the other slot free for a future upgrade. | Toadtoad wrote: | As far as I know, having two equivalent RAM sticks for dual | channel mode helps performance, so most people choose that over | having single stick, which is often frowned upon in the desktop | space, at least. | ezoe wrote: | Disappointed at display resolution. I'm forever waiting for a | laptop with AMD CPU, no dedicated GPU, 4K built-in display, | enough RAM, a few USB port and a Ethernet. | acidburnNSA wrote: | Kinda interesting that this has a 49 Wh battery while the smaller | and less powerful Lemur Pro has a 73 Wh one [1]. I have the 2020 | Lemur Pro and love the ridiculously long battery life. I guess | this is more of a plug it in most of the day machine vs. an | ultralight. | | [1] https://system76.com/laptops/lemur | peignoir wrote: | System76 seems to be making good laptops but on side I'm happy | with my zephyrus it's amd 3900HS it has a 3070 for AI and it's | 200/300 $ more and has a great Linux community. Not sure what | system76 value prop is on that market. | HanaShiratori wrote: | Same here, been using the g14 since last year as my main arch | machine and couldn't be happier. | hazza_n_dazza wrote: | too expensive. should be the same price as a windows laptop minus | ~$80 for the windows | toastal wrote: | There's no mention of the color gamut on that display. Necessary | 1080p complaints aside, I couldn't buy a Linux laptop last year | because all of the displays are trash. If you're lucky you can | find 100% sRGB, but I and many others need 100% DCI-P3 and it's | just not on offer. My 2-year-old $450 phone has P3 coverage, but | almost nothing in the laptop space does. | frellus wrote: | I like and support anyone trying to do a Linux laptop, but sorry | System76 -- I hate, hate, hate your keyboard layout. Awful! | | Take a look at the keyboard layout before you decide to purchase | a system. Also, ask yourself if you shouldn't just be getting a | Dell instead. | dcow wrote: | Does anyone know how much power this draws when idle? With a 49WH | battery and assuming 5W idle (which is what you can get the 4k | series ryzen mobile down to on windows on a good day), that's | just under 10 hours. Anyone have any tighter numbers? I would | seriously consider buying this if I could actually expect 10 | hours battery pretty consistently. | shekhar101 wrote: | I really appreciate how affordable upgrades (RAM, Storage etc) | are. I am not used to it. Apple adds a hefty premium on these | upgrades (I understand this is not a 1:1 comparison). | Configuration looks really solid and affordable! | xvilka wrote: | Is it coreboot-based? Modern laptops firmware is bigger than | Linux kernel and has too much crap inside. Intel is openly | hostile to the open source firmware, while it's theoretically | possible to do that on AMD systems. | second--shift wrote: | who buys these instead of Lenovos for running Linux on? | | Lenovo T14's are going for 65% of the asking price of one of | these, if you don't care about intel vs amd. | istingray wrote: | Linux support is a side project for Lenovo. They could end it | any any time. | | System76 is all in on Linux support. That's why I support them. | cure wrote: | I have bought a few System76 laptops, though not this variant - | I like to buy the ones that ship with coreboot. | | As for the price difference: you can buy the base model of the | System76 and upgrade ram/disk yourself. This is harder to do on | the Lenovo ones; it seems the T14 has (some of) the ram | soldered on (ugh). | | But, it is nice to see that you can actually buy a T14 with | Ubuntu preinstalled (if you are willing to wait 4+ months...), | and they list it next to the (more expensive!) Windows version: | | https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/th... | lanevorockz wrote: | Looks great ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-09-01 10:00 UTC)