[HN Gopher] A soft, wearable brain-machine interface ___________________________________________________________________ A soft, wearable brain-machine interface Author : sizzle Score : 87 points Date : 2021-09-07 17:59 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org) (TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org) | 0xFACEFEED wrote: | Could someone explain to a dummy like me: what are the actual | technological bottlenecks for brain-machine interfaces? | | Like... setting aside all the things that, given enough | time/effort, we'll reach some useful maximum. I'm told that with | ML (eg: image classification) we'll eventually train the systems | enough that they'll do a pretty amazing job. | | So is it converting analog brain signals to digital? Is the rate | of data transmission even relevant here? What would happen if we | had enough "brain data" from a single person to saturate a 10 | gigabit network? Do we have the software to do anything | meaningful with that? | uuidgen wrote: | The brain is more like a CPU implemented in FPGA than a CPU | synthesised into silicon. | | Signals are only somewhat local - you get increased activity in | this or that region and can correlate it with what happens in | the brain - like power analysis attacks on crypto chips - the | algorithm has to recover the data from the limited, noisy | signal we are able to pickup. | | You can't just put electrode in every single neuron to read its | state like you can't put an electrode into every single piece | of conductive metal on a chip - it would be to tight to fit and | everything would stop working. | dr_dshiv wrote: | So many challenges. One is that we can only receive information | from certain parts of the brain--those where the neurons are | perpendicular to the scalp. As you know, the brain is really | convoluted, so this makes for a very messy signal. Another | issue is that the raw noise makes it extremely difficult to | detect faint signals. | | An approach for this is training models that have expectations | based on the stimuli themselves; e.g., to find neural resonance | with different frequencies in the stimulus. | didntknowya wrote: | the main problem is not software, AI, etc. It's that we can't | get the data reliably- i.e. current sensors are not sensitive | enough to pick up brainwaves/activity (esp with interference | from muscle etc). The gold standard is electrodes implanted in | a brain but is a bit invasive as an interface. | devindotcom wrote: | Right now the state of the art options are either surgically | implanted electrode arrays (invasive and very limited in what | they can detect), electroencephalogram type helmets (non- | invasive but only get very vague signals), or fMRI type imaging | (more precise but still only gross detail, and requires an | enormous complex machine). | | There's no obvious way forward with any of these that produces | what you or I might consider a true brain machine interface. We | don't have the tech AND we don't understand the brain enough. | | Fortunately you don't need a brain-reading device to produce | something useful, just like you don't need a teraflop computer | to go to the moon. I've written recently about an EEG helmet | that can be used by profoundly disabled folks to navigate a UI, | type, and so on, and that doesn't require a precise signal at | all. So I think what you'll find is while the Musks of the | world are chasing a sci-fi dream of what they think the | technology ought to be, most of the utility will come out of | using what it's actually capable of in a smart and | compassionate way. | judge2020 wrote: | > What would happen if we had enough "brain data" from a single | person to saturate a 10g network? | | Upgrade to USB 4 :) | 0xFACEFEED wrote: | Derp. Corrected to 10 gigabit. | pama wrote: | Our brain was not built to directly transmit signals nor to | accept input wires to read / write signals. I am sure one or | the other can eventually be overcome safely. But we are not | there yet. | ebb_earl_co wrote: | Like all of WaitButWhy's articles, I think this one [0] helps a | person understand from the fundamentals. I linked to part 3 | which is the section for Brain-Machine Interfaces in | particular, but it behooves you to read from the beginning | | [0] https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html#part3 | tbenst wrote: | The big challenge for non-invasive BCI is that most interesting | information content in the brain (e.g. speech) is encoded in | high frequency firing activity, and the skull acts as a low- | pass filter. | seph-reed wrote: | Do you ever feel the impulse to "ctrl-f" when you're at the | grocery store? | | Imagine the feeling of going to reach for something, and | accidentally just envisioning moving your arm. Might be like | "stepping into air" when you're almost asleep. | [deleted] | 58x14 wrote: | When I used to regularly play a particular lane-based MOBA, any | time I'd need to react quickly while driving, I'd instinctively | feel the need to burst some variation of QWE depending on which | character I'd recently been playing. | | Sometimes if I practice difficult scales (those with novel | movements for weak fingers e.g. left pinky and ring) on the | piano before typing on a keyboard, I'll mistype more | frequently. | | I wonder if this type and similar phenomena is also related: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_vibration_syndrome | hemloc_io wrote: | I've had this happen when opening a cookbook. Spooky for sure. | | Time to go outside for a bit. | [deleted] | yhvh wrote: | https://www.cumulusneuro.com/ | fouc wrote: | It's striking the site is focusing on the use of it in clinical | trials only, and not for general purpose use yet unfortunately. | judge2020 wrote: | Probably requires: | | - proven usefulness for general computer tasks | | - must be relatively easy and quick to set up | | - cost must be reasonable, if expensive - anything over | something like $2,000 is going to severely limit your | customer pool. A semi-automated manufacturing line will help | with this | | - for good measure, a crack marketing team | | Another consideration is that the BCI industry is moving | insanely fast. By the time you set up a production line and | start mass-producing, there might be news about a novel much- | better process that overshadows your product and destroys | sales. This is effectively what happened with VR in 2012-2018 | when everything was super expensive; only as of recent can | you recommend an Index or Quest 2 to people without fearing a | huge leap in VR quality to be coming in the near future. | anfractuosity wrote: | It looks like they're using one 10x10 array of electrodes? | | With say the traditional EEG electrodes, they seem to cover all | over the head (some with say around 128 electrodes). | | I understand that they'd get a higher quality signal, but is the | fact they're only using electrodes over one area of the scalp a | disadvantage? | 58x14 wrote: | I have a Muse 2 [1] and a Flowtime [2]; both are consumer- | oriented portable EEGs using Bluetooth to transmit data displayed | on their respective mobile apps. | | The Muse hardware is seriously inhibited by the same user- | exploitative trends we see everywhere, accompanied by meaningless | promises. Many researchers used the Muse SDK and API until they | discontinued it in 2019 [3] in favor of Muse Direct - another way | to force users to feed Muse their data and lock them into a | subscription. | | Unsurprisingly, this was also abandoned [4] and they claim "We're | working on a solution that allows you to collect raw EEG data | using the free to download" app, which would still allow Muse | complete control over your authentication, use and data. Ugh. | | At least the community has reverse-engineered the LSL protocol | and built a Python package [5]. | | Flowtime claimed that it offers a closed API, as they don't have | the resources to maintain an open API [6]. I remember somewhere | they claimed it was on their roadmap, but I searched again today | and couldn't find any support of their claim. | | BrainBit [7] and NextMind [8] seem to provide more robust | developer tools, although I have no experience. Naturally, each | of these runs more than double the ~$200 cost of the Muse and | Flowtime devices. | | I have no formal neurological education but I strongly believe | non-invasive EEGs, combined with novel, gamified training | techniques coupled with machine learning will usher in a new era | of digital interactions. Like the transition from tactile | smartphone keypads to the eventually-ubiquitous full touchscreen, | I expect many design iterations in both hardware and software | will produce utterly fascinating products. | | I can't wait to get excited again for a product launch. | | [1] https://choosemuse.com/muse-2/ [2] | https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/flowtime-biosensing-medit... | [3] https://github.com/sccn/labstreaminglayer/issues/30 [4] | https://choosemuse.force.com/s/article/Muse-Direct-Subscript... | [5] https://github.com/alexandrebarachant/muse-lsl [6] | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/987756376/flowtime-bios... | [7] https://sdk.brainbit.com/ [8] https://www.next- | mind.com/developer/ | refulgentis wrote: | I've been kicking around getting one of these for years, the | deciding factor for me is essentially "what kind of demos can | you pull off with these?" | | ex. a simple "yes / no" detector would be meh, pointer control | would be amazing, some sort of mood detector/brain trainer type | apps would be _awesome_ since it'd be producing value for me | Mizza wrote: | Curious about these "micro-needle electrodes". If I try on my | buddy's helmet, is there a chance I'm going to catch hepatitis? | kortex wrote: | I would guess they are meant as consumables. The needles are | 0.8 mm long and 0.35 mm wide, pyrimidal spikes. Definitely too | shallow to cause bleeding but that's still quite intimate | contact. | stcredzero wrote: | I'm also concerned about how such devices will affect and be | affected by cavitation. Cavitation inside the skull has been | found to happen in concussion injuries in explosions. It's also | thought that it can happen with the smaller impulses coming | from punches and everyday impacts. Are the devices subject to | cavitation, particularly the long, thin parts, and what happens | to those long thin parts inside the brain when they are | subjected to cavitation? | | EDIT: This device is only penetrating the scalp, but other | devices like Neuralink penetrate into the brain. | kortex wrote: | It's barely even penetrating the scalp. The needles (really | better described as spikes, they have a fair amount of draft, | about 20deg) only puncture the strateum corneum - outer layer | of dead skin cells and lipids. | mattkrause wrote: | This particular device doesn't even penetrate al the way | through the scalp, so the skull would likely obliterate these | long before they reach the brain. | | Motion is a problem for things that are inserted into the | brain, but people have been getting DBS and sEEG implants for | 30 years, and it's manageable, though not totally solved. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-09-07 23:00 UTC)