[HN Gopher] Undercover at a Troll Farm (2019)
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Undercover at a Troll Farm (2019)
Author : babuskov
Score : 63 points
Date : 2021-09-09 19:34 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.investigate-europe.eu)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.investigate-europe.eu)
| woodpanel wrote:
| Good thing they shine a light on those evil troll farms. And not
| on the "internet activists" of political aligned NGOs in their
| own home countries.
|
| This month Germany elects a new Bundestag and almost every party
| recruits their own online activists. E.g. they form "discussion
| intervention groups" to dynamically flood any online discussion,
| to ensure their narratives are protected.
| kazinator wrote:
| No parole for the trolling Poles.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| If they direct you to a fake login page, they're phishing
| Poles.
| ggm wrote:
| If half are catholic, and half are athiest, they're polar
| opposites.
| question000 wrote:
| I just want to say before you read any of these comments, they
| are being monitored, they are being manipulated. Don't take
| anything on the Internet at face value. There are no "concerned
| citizens" on the Internet only bored people and trolls trying to
| force action out of inquiry.
| [deleted]
| heyitsguay wrote:
| To put it another way that's a little less accusatory but still
| encourages the right mindset - assume any comment on a service
| from a user without verified ID was written by a troll trying
| to provoke a reaction.
| drdaeman wrote:
| Concerning oneself with poster's identity (honestly, feels
| like a form of ad hominem) can't be exactly the solution.
|
| It could be that relationship to the source matters - rather
| than author's identity. I mean, there is a subtle difference
| between "who wrote this?" and "do I trust this?". But the
| only implementation I can think of is some sort of web-of-
| trust and all attempts at implementing WoT I know about had
| utterly failed.
|
| Either way, I believe some form of memetic immunity - not
| getting provoked - rather than attempts to identify and shut
| down "troll farms" and "fake news" - is an ultimate solution.
| Razengan wrote:
| Could you get any more "verified" than a recent president or
| be any more of a troll?
| heyitsguay wrote:
| I'd say anonymity is sufficient but not necessary :D
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| This is how I approach the Internet as a whole. Treat
| unverified anything as if they are the enemy trying to hurt
| you. Be skeptical. It's a real shame too because the Internet
| is one of mankind's crowning achievements but it has this
| taint.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Anonymity is a poor heuristic. I rate people as trolls or not
| dependin gon whether they employ fallacious reasoning, and
| how they respond to being challenged. Not all fallacious
| arguments are trolling, as people can simply be wrong. But if
| a person is supplied with accurate information, or the form
| of an error explained and acknowledged, only to see them
| return the next day with the same schtick, then I regard that
| as posting in bad faith.
|
| There are plenty of anonymous truth-tellers and plenty overt
| hypocrites and liars. It's important to remember that not all
| lies are meant to be believed; some are merely intended to
| upset, to bait, or to signal.
| mistermann wrote:
| > But if a person is supplied with accurate information
|
| Unfortunately, this is often a matter of opinion, but not
| perceived as such, often completely sincerely.
| ggm wrote:
| > _Not all fallacious arguments are trolling, as people can
| simply be wrong._
|
| There's factually wrong, there's logically fallacious
| argument, and there's "I don't agree with you, so I will
| say you're wrong, and be condescending to impute your
| reasoning, but actually, I'm not the teacher, or the font
| of wisdom" wrong.
|
| Yes, people can simply be wrong. Lincoln didn't write
| internet jokes online. But, oftentimes, "wrong" is actually
| "I don't agree with you, but saying you're wrong is more
| win"
|
| I tend to all three (factually, logical reasoning error,
| and opinion) wrongs. So I'm used to seeing all three flung
| back at me. There. Flung. thats emotive. Probably casts
| (ha) things in to a specific mode of reasoning...
| dillondoyle wrote:
| I'm with both you and OP.
|
| There are concerned citizens. I'm one of them. But there are
| also trolls and organized, paid government & industry shills.
|
| I think having verified IDs is an interesting idea on HN and
| other niche forums and would help parse out the intention.
|
| Could probably do it without doxing the public facing
| comments. Would put all the trust in YC though.
|
| Maybe that's an interesting product idea, a way to establish
| real identity trust without any chance of exposing personal
| data to any parties, even the verifier.
|
| I think it would help discussions.
|
| I have my opinion there are shills here, specifically China
| related content and I think it would be interesting to know
| comments are minimally form a single human. Coordination is
| still possible though.
| refenestrator wrote:
| > specifically China related content
|
| But from which angle? Pro- or anti-?
|
| I don't think it's likely that most/any HN commenters are
| paid trolls, there are lots of Chinese and Americans in
| this industry that will naturally have different
| perspectives.
| orwin wrote:
| This is great journalism. Good job, and tbh, it comfort my theory
| that the twitter crowd, especially the loud twitter crowd, is
| small.
| ohmyzee wrote:
| I really wish this kind of thing was more talked about, and
| better understood. Most people have no idea how these "bots" or
| "trolls" actually influence conversation online, and what impact
| their actions have.
|
| One thing that frustrates me most is that even if people do reach
| the point of understanding the power these people have, it still
| won't matter much. We still trust online media such as Reddit,
| Twitter, Facebook, and even this website, as being the fountain
| of the mythical phenomenon known as "public opinion".
|
| I can see in real life that people are becoming fatigued by the
| uncertainty of our modern existence, but everyone is unsure of
| how to pinpoint and react to the source of their tension. My
| expectation/hope/fear is that the younger generation who grow up
| in this environment will eventually form a nu-luddite movement.
|
| My bigger expectation/fear is that they won't
| dragontamer wrote:
| History always provides context. In the late 1700s, the
| "printing press" gave new freedoms to publishers never before
| seen in all of history. How did our lawmakers react?
|
| Yes, they passed the 1st Amendment, protecting the right to
| free press. But just a few years later, they also passed...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts
|
| > [The Sedition Act] criminalized making 'false statements'
| critical of the federal government
|
| And an example of prosecution of people through the Sedition
| Act is Mr. David Brown. Here's his story:
|
| > In November 1798, David Brown led a group in Dedham,
| Massachusetts, including Benjamin Fairbanks, in setting up a
| liberty pole with the words, "No Stamp Act, No Sedition Act, No
| Alien Bills, No Land Tax, downfall to the Tyrants of America;
| peace and retirement to the President; Long Live the Vice
| President."[17][19][20] Brown was arrested in Andover,
| Massachusetts, but because he could not afford the $4,000 bail,
| he was taken to Salem for trial.[19] Brown was tried in June
| 1799.[17] Brown pleaded guilty, but Justice Samuel Chase asked
| him to name others who had assisted him.[17] Brown refused, was
| fined $480 (equivalent to $7,300 in 2020),[19][21] and
| sentenced to eighteen months in prison, the most severe
| sentence imposed under the Sedition Act.[17][19]
|
| -----------
|
| Our 2rd President said at the time:
|
| > "There has been more new error propagated by the press in the
| last ten years than in an hundred years before 1798"
|
| ----------
|
| EDIT: It should be noted that Ben Franklin himself engaged in
| the creation of literal fake news, as a propaganda /
| negotiation tactic against the English Monarchy. Ben Franklin
| created a false story about Native Americans "Scalping" US
| Citizens on behalf of orders from the English Crown.
|
| Our founding fathers were no strangers to propaganda, fake-
| news, and other techniques to rile up populations and/or
| control the dialog. Indeed, they themselves took advantage of
| it to successfully launch the Revolution!
| seph-reed wrote:
| I really, really wish there were spaces that required some sort
| of proof of critical thinking to enter.
|
| The harder the test to get in, the better. Maybe even a non-
| refundable 50+$ fee. I would give a lot to have a single space
| on Earth where mere popularity is not the metric of
| correctness.
| xkeysc0re wrote:
| Interesting podcast covering the influence of these
| computational propaganda campaigns and their effect on the
| human mind https://soundcloud.com/inpatientradio/neural-
| narratives-comp...
| tclancy wrote:
| "an activist for the conservative ruling party. . . He got the
| job - without even having a university diploma or a military
| background - thanks to his friends at the defence ministry."
|
| I realize it shows my biases, but I am waiting for the first
| major troll farm associated with the left and with, I dunno, PETA
| or whatever the opposite of the military industrial complex is.
| Do they exist? They must, but it seems (based perhaps on my echo
| chamber) that 95% of the effort is from vested interests who
| prefer the status quo over fact.
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| Say what you want about the right, but they are a more unified
| and organized conglomeration. The left tends to dissolve into
| factions and disagree among themselves. Even in a Democratic
| held Congress and Senate, it's hard to get things passed where
| as the Republicans for all their faults seem to push through
| items after item, block judges from the Supreme Court, etc etc.
|
| When it comes to these smaller organizations on the left, like
| "Antifa" they aren't even an organization, really. It's just a
| name, and you are Antifa if you say you are. The guy shooting
| at the WA state prison was just as much Antifa as the
| protestors in Portland, even though they had no connection or
| similar goals or values. This leads people to argue as to
| whether or not Antifa really exists. For some it does, and they
| believe they are in it. As a unified organization, not
| really.... welco.e to a lot of left "organizations".
|
| It's hard to get things like a troll farm going when you can't
| even get yourself grouped with a single purpose.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| It's fascinating that you say this, because I had only
| moments before read a conservative bemoaning that the right
| has so much infighting, unlike the united left. Maybe it's
| easier to see the division on your own side (if I may make
| the assumption).
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| You aren't wrong. I'm not particularly conservative on a
| lot of issues, even though I'm not a Democrat.
| specialist wrote:
| I call this the No Caucus vs the Yes Caucus. Unlike
| sportsball and war, defending the political status quo is
| always easier.
|
| Building consensus in the Yes Caucus is very hard. Agree that
| something must be done. Then herd the kittens. Then buy off
| all the hostage takers and defectors. Then the caucus
| dissolves for every little victory (little potential for
| building momentum). Etc.
|
| Whereas the members of the No Caucus only need to agree on
| "No."
|
| It's unfortunate, or least weird, that "right" and "left"
| have been associated with establishment and reform. What ever
| one's opinion of movement Conservatives, 60 years ago they
| were the reformers, challenging the status quo.
|
| They succeeded. And now they're playing defense, with all the
| inherit advantages.
| blakesterz wrote:
| This place does seem to work both sides. This down towards the
| end of the piece:
|
| "But the company does not only have right-wing clients - they
| work as well for 'the other side'. On May 10, the company was
| ordered to suspend activities in favour of TVP until further
| notice. From now on the troll farm focused on the Twitter
| account of the deputy head of the Democratic Left Alliance
| (SLD), Andrzej Szejna. He is a successful lawyer and election
| candidate."
| nineplay wrote:
| FTA
|
| > But the company does not only have right-wing clients - they
| work as well for 'the other side'. On May 10, the company was
| ordered to suspend activities in favour of TVP until further
| notice. From now on the troll farm focused on the Twitter
| account of the deputy head of the Democratic Left Alliance
| (SLD), Andrzej Szejna. He is a successful lawyer and election
| candidate.
|
| Trolls gotta troll.
|
| I thought it was pretty widely known that the many troll farms
| work just to drive us all apart. They scream loudly with
| extremist views and convince everyone on either side that their
| opponents are plain crazy.
|
| I was startled to find recently that the 70% of adults in the
| US have at least one shot. Any media outlet would have you
| believe it was 50/50.
| joe_the_user wrote:
| Troll farms are associated with those who have more money than
| committed activists. Whatever you may think of the left, it
| tends to have the opposite. - maybe the vague center left at
| the level of Jeff Bezos could that but even here, you have
| money proportionate to committed followers.
|
| _the opposite of the military industrial complex_
|
| There's no money in anti-militarism. antiwar.com is a
| libertarian (ie right) website but it has survive on donations.
| _Troll farm pay for opinions, that 's a pretty specific thing_.
|
| Edit: Reading the article, this farm apparently supported some
| "left wing" causes. But basically it comes down to money.
| emergie wrote:
| I have different experience. Soros & co are really operating
| a political engineering project in eastern europe. He is
| funding many NGOs here, to the point where regular people
| hearing "NGO" interprete it as shady-leftist-organisation. We
| have no rich enough capitalists, only foreign leftists care
| about installing their world view here.
| NumberCruncher wrote:
| I used to work in a team where everyone except me had
| studied at the now closed Central European University. My
| current personal manager also sudied at the CUE. Very
| clever and open minded people. And what is "your
| experience" based on again?
| nsajko wrote:
| > regular people hearing "NGO" interprete it as shady-
| leftist-organisation
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
| _jal wrote:
| > that 95% of the effort is from vested interests who prefer
| the status quo
|
| The incumbent power structure has both wealth and incentive to
| resist change. Underdogs usually don't.
| [deleted]
| at_a_remove wrote:
| "Correct the Record" is what you are looking for. Naturally,
| nobody in the media will call them a troll farm but you have
| your basic walks like a duck criteria there.
| erosenbe0 wrote:
| Many animal charities are trolls though. You can start a
| charity and your 'independent' board can just pay you and your
| brother who runs the advertising all the money. Send a few
| bucks to your cousin the lobbyist, some more to your other
| cousin who owns the office complex, and then leave 1% as grants
| for animal shelters. This is not far from what some PETA like
| charities do.
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| I like to think, somewhere, there are rooms full of patriots who
| pursued years of education and intense training for a role at a 3
| letter agency - believing they would travel the world doing super
| secret spy craft. Now they spend their days sitting in dark,
| windowless, rooms in front of a computer screen slinging dank
| memes on the web.
| reidjs wrote:
| I also believe there are some zealous patriots who joined the
| military, inspired by dreams of killing our enemies, only to be
| relegated to posting memes on The Army's Instagram and TikTok
| pages to recruit other kids.
| spats1990 wrote:
| Or editing wikipedia, and arguing on talk pages.
| ggm wrote:
| arguing on HN posts
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