[HN Gopher] Ireland raises privacy question over Facebook smart ... ___________________________________________________________________ Ireland raises privacy question over Facebook smart glasses Author : justinclift Score : 127 points Date : 2021-09-18 14:09 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com) | annadane wrote: | It's just bad optics, no pun intended. They know the privacy | concerns surrounding Facebook yet they choose to release smart | glasses | andylynch wrote: | Surprising it's the DPC piping up. They aren't generally known as | an aggressive regulator | vmoore wrote: | 1984 was a warning, not an instruction manual. | | It is good to bring up privacy issues with this. | | Essentially these glasses are a cheap version of what spies | have been wearing for decades, so of course it's going to raise | eyebrows. Putting surveillance powers in the hands of everyday | folk invariably leads to bad things. | croes wrote: | Maybe just a proactive move. The DPC asks, FB answers, all is | good, no privacy problems. | | And the indicator LED can easily be hidden with tape or these | laptop camera stickers, if you are more into the ironic touch. | lmkg wrote: | The Irish regulator is the one with jurisdiction, so they're | the one that's on point for this topic. | | They're also quite proactive in offering guidance, material, | and feedback. Their cookie sweep from a few years back is | something I still reference on a regular basis for the contours | of "strictly necessary." | | They just don't actually _regulate_. They offer a lot of | guidance and ask a lot of strong-worded questions, but those | don 't turn into fines. | yawaworht1978 wrote: | Malicious actors could just place them on a balcony near an ATM, | this whole thing is a terrible idea as far privacy goes. Massive | infraction. | verdverm wrote: | For those who worry about the camera and your privacy, how do | phone cameras differ in this respect with everyone taking and | uploading pictures, videos, snaps, and tiktoks in public spaces? | 13415 wrote: | There is no substantial difference, but the glasses hide it | better and therefore have more nefarious uses. Making pictures | of someone without consent is prohibited by law in most | European countries, and people will react negatively if you try | to do it. | | Glasses that looked almost identical to these Ray Bans used to | be available from Chinese wholesale sellers. It has always been | hard for me to imagine them getting used by anyone else than | creeps for making pictures of women on the beach, etc. Just | because they're Ray Ban doesn't suddenly make them noble, on | the contrary the resolution is probably higher, which makes | these even more problematic spyware. | bussierem wrote: | I have no skin in this game but the most common answer to this | is that it's a lot easier to tell when someone is pointing a | phone at you, unless they're REALLY being sneaky. With glasses | this becomes impossible. | cronix wrote: | How many Amazon Ring doorbells do you walk/drive past every | day without realizing it? | verdverm wrote: | I think for the most part, you end up in the background of a | photo. How many selfies might you be in? Have you worried | about that prior? | theknocker wrote: | The time to fight this battle is when it's criminals in the | "intelligence community" violating our rights, not when it's | private citizens with slightly goofier camera phones, i.e. a long | time ago. (Though in fairness, I guess I do think every law | enforcement official _should_ have a camera embedded in their | forehead.) | fidesomnes wrote: | oh yes Ireland, the great bastion of privacy concern trolling. | bennysomething wrote: | I don't even understand how this got past the first whiteboard | meeting "yeah right you want this to perv at the beach, park | etc". It's just a creepy hidden camera. | pronlover723 wrote: | I know this will get DVed but this seems like one of those things | we'll look back on in 20yrs and "mostly" wonder what all the fuss | was about. | | AR cameras seem inevitable. They're strange today but ask any | 2006 non-techie if they'd consider carrying a pocket computer and | they'd laugh at you. Now they all have one and you'd likely only | get them to part with it from their cold dead fingers. | | The privacy issues are a huge consequence but IMO they won't stop | the march of progress. Too many positives. First is they enable | AR which full sci-fi AR seems eminently useful. 2nd, they'll | likely help prevent all kinds of crime, especially once implanted | or put in contact lenses. Rape, Muggings, theft, seem like they'd | all go down in a world where AR cameras are as ubiquitous as | smartphones. How do backroom deals, government conspiracies, | corporate malfeasance stay private when everyone in the room is | recording it? You could say "they'll be told to turn it off to | participate" but I suspect as we get more and more dependent it | will become near impossible to ask people to turn off their | connections. They won't be able to effectively participate in the | meeting with all referencing all the stuff their AR display gives | them access to. Police brutality? All of it recorded. | | Further, as a 2021 person used to privacy it scares the crap out | of me for all my private activities with others to be recorded. | But a generation of people that grew up with the AR will likely | have no such reservations. They'll be used to having every sex | act recorded. | | So, while the privacy issues are real I feel like it's mostly | like commanding the waves to stop crashing. Impossible. Better to | just accept that it's coming and figure out how best to deal with | it. I don't believe laws telling people they can't have it or use | it will work. I know if you value your privacy that sucks but I | doubt anything can be done to stop it from coming and I so I | think it's better to embrace its arrival. | 123pie123 wrote: | > Better to just accept that it's coming and figure out how | best to deal with it. | | No - I massively disagree with this | | we're still at the forefront of the internet revolution , if we | simply cave in on things like this, then all the subsquent | generations will get the pain. | | We can stop it if we say no - it is 100% NOT inevitable, we can | choose as a society | novok wrote: | Violence is always an option and ability for most humans, but | we have laws and culture that prevent humans from doing those | actions, and some places are better than others than this | because of those legal and social differences. Similarly we can | choose a similar future in regards to privacy, even with newly | evolved tech with their privacy issues. | mc32 wrote: | There is one example of a technology which was curbed because | it infringed on privacy: high iso + IR video cameras in | daylight. Sony had come out with a "camcorder" whose functions | allowed people who wanted to take surreptitious up skirt videos | (it was good under low light conditions and added IR light). | This was a big problem in Japan so Sony took it off the market. | | Now all cameras with IR suppress IR in good light conditions so | as not to allow "see thru" capabilities. | amelius wrote: | That's nothing compared to the professional voyeurism | performed by Google and Facebook. | maccolgan wrote: | Indeed the elimination of privacy seems inevitable... | MrPatan wrote: | The fuss is about the "Facebook" bit, not the "smart glasses" | bit. I want smart glasses that are mine, not Mark's. | [deleted] | jsudi wrote: | What is "L1N2QC2KU"? | jobigoud wrote: | Only place I can find it is in variants of this article. Maybe | the author of the original pasted their password by mistake | while they were working on it and the proofreader thought it | was a code name or something. | trebligdivad wrote: | Can we just look back to all the stories about Google Glass a few | years back and repeat them? | rsynnott wrote: | No repeat of the Robert Scoble photo, please! | Animats wrote: | At least with Google Glass, you had a display. These don't even | have that. It's mostly a music player, really. | | Let's call them "fDweebs". ("iDweebs" were those Apple earbuds | with white wires.) | foobaby wrote: | The problem with these is that they're essentially masquerading | as normal sunglasses. I don't think most people in public will | even notice that these aren't normal Ray Bans. Google Glass | wasn't effective in part due to the fact that they were obvious | to those around the wearer. That's not the case with these, | which is frankly terrifying. | dmoo wrote: | Just to say, they will notice them in Ireland. There are not | that many sunglasses days... | rusk wrote: | They hide a thousand sins it's said, so plenty more reasons | to wear them round these parts | ojbyrne wrote: | They're also selling regular glasses, no tint. | ocdtrekkie wrote: | You'd be surprised how many people _didn 't_ notice them, | tbh. | rvense wrote: | It's hard for me to articulate how this makes me feel. As | someone who values anonymity and, for no particular reason, | would prefer not to be photographed and have my movements | tracked, I feel like I am being forced from public spaces. | | Regulated CCTV coverage of certain areas is one thing. This | is untracked, unlimited surveillance by a private company | whose goals and motives are completely removed from any | semblance of public, democratic influence. | | Facebook must be destroyed. | [deleted] | drstewart wrote: | >Regulated CCTV coverage of certain areas is one thing | | Why is it one thing? Also, who told you it was regulated? | iamstupidsimple wrote: | If it wasn't Facebook, somebody else would or already is | doing this. There's no escaping public CCTV in major cities | nowadays. It's not nearly as regulated as you think and is | also majority run by private companies. | | If you don't like this, changing the laws to ban public | surveillance is the only option. | nitrogen wrote: | Aggregation, scale, visibility, and mobility change the | risks. Quantity has a quality of its own. | hyperstar wrote: | > changing the laws to ban public surveillance is the | only option | | i wonder if it would be feasible to require that all | surveillence footage from public areas be _immediately_ | encrypted so that it could only be decrypted by a certain | number of judges (following a court order). | colpabar wrote: | Easy with the conspiracy theories. They may know your | height, your eye/hair color, your skin color, your license | plate #, where you live, where you work, where you shop, | who you hang out with, etc, but you'll still be totally | anonymous when they sell that information to whoever pays | for it. They swear! | sockpuppet_12 wrote: | I know right? Only people who have something to hide | would care if some bespectacled reprobate snaps down- | shirt shots of them on the subway to share the | 'experience' with their fellows. | drclau wrote: | > I don't think most people in public will even notice that | these aren't normal Ray Bans | | Most people will not even be aware such devices exist. Here, | on HN, there's an assumption that everyone is or will soon be | up-to-date with tech news. But, the world outside of HN is | way, way larger. | | I bet most people won't know what is going on even if they | notice the eyeglasses have an LED that's on. It's not like an | LED is a universal signal for "your privacy is cancelled | now". | a5aAqU wrote: | People who are concerned about it will stop talking to people | who wear Ray-Bans. | | I could see this having a negative effect on Ray-Ban, | especially since it's easy to say "ban Ray-Bans" or "Ray-Bans | are banned" when you're hosting a gathering or event. | | Customers are going to want to know, "Why do people around me | always seem to look angry when I wear Ray-Bans? I get called | 'glasshole' a few times every week." | ajb wrote: | David Brin predicted that surveillance would be impossible to | control in his 1998 book "The Transparent Society", going on | to argue that there are two possible futures: one in which | the masses are under 100% surveillance, while elites can act | behind closed doors, and one in which the masses can also see | what the elites are doing ("sousveillance"). | | I'm still hoping that there is a way out, but Brin is looking | more and more prescient. | matheusmoreira wrote: | Looks like we'll need to become part of this elite in order | to have any peace. | rusk wrote: | The glassholes have returned. This time incognito. | 13415 wrote: | At least they have "Ray Ban" written fairly large on the side, | I'll certainly avoid people wearing Ray Bans in the near | future. | filoleg wrote: | Given that Ray-Ban has been one of the most popular | sunglasses and eyeglasses brands for a long time, following | that principle might make it really difficult for you to go | anywhere in public. | 13415 wrote: | Not that it matters, but they are not very popular where I | live. | Y_Y wrote: | "spyctacles" | siva7 wrote: | So am i the only one where this would be social suicide wearing | such things? Maybe someone can explain | ramphastidae wrote: | Agreed. If someone I was with was wearing these, the | conversation would end immediately. | C19is20 wrote: | ...if you noticed them. | copperx wrote: | It is a good thing that these glasses are tinted, otherwise, | people would wear them indoors, in private spaces. | siva7 wrote: | I am sorry to disappoint but they are available with clear | glasses and therefore also with prescription glasses | siva7 wrote: | These glasses look ridiculous, i can't understand how a brand | like ray-ban throws their name in for what looks like spy glasses | | https://www.ray-ban.com/usa/electronics/RW4004%20UNISEX%20RA... | rootsudo wrote: | litereally like ebay-chinese esque ones too. | | https://www.amazon.com/GoVision-Sunglasses-Resistant-Lightwe... | neetfreek wrote: | Just to comment on your take about the brand itself. Ray-Ban is | owned by the Luxottica Group, who are set to merge with Essilor | - looking at ~25% global value of eyewear. | | This means they own enough to possibly a) start normalising | this whole thing by pushing out with other brands and b) Ray- | Ban now bombing could be a credible calculated risk. | dmoo wrote: | For context https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/10/the- | invisible-p... | SomeBoolshit wrote: | I'm a little confused by your comment. The glasses pictured in | the article look like a pretty standard pair of modern | Wayfarers. | [deleted] | shever73 wrote: | This is exactly what I thought when I first saw them. The LED can | be easily covered, and they look too much like normal sunglasses | for the average person to notice. | | Day after day, my loathing for Facebook grows. | noptd wrote: | Yeah, this reminds me of a product you'd find in a spy museum. | | Cue the chilling effect of having to worry about being recorded | whenever you're talking around someone wearing Raybans in | public. And before the claims about it not being worse than | everyone having a smartphone, etc, it absolutely is - it's far | more obvious if someone has their phone in hand. | pmoriarty wrote: | Unfortunately Facebook is far from the only company that | regularly invades and has contempt for privacy. | | That contemptuous attitude and attempts to profit from privacy | invasion is almost omnipresent among companies these days. | | On the subject of glasses that can record what you see, wasn't | Google the first company to market them? There was a similar | backlash against them too back then. | agency wrote: | At least with Google glass there was little danger of | mistaking my them for "normal" glasses. These Facebook/Ray | Ban ones are designed to blend in. | FridayoLeary wrote: | It's not FB. It's progress. You can replace them with any other | name in the world. It just happens to be that Facebook | announced this rather obvious technology. | eps wrote: | You must've missed the first eposide of this show called | "Glassholes". | anderson1993 wrote: | "Smart" is almost an exaggeration in this case. They don't have | any AR, so it's just a camera basically, as far as I heard. | croes wrote: | Smartphone aren't smart either. | drclau wrote: | They were when they appeared. That is, in comparison to the | phones that existed at that time, which are now known as | "dumb phones". Now, smartphones are the normal. | croes wrote: | By that logic these smartglasses are smart | aierou wrote: | I don't mean to go too much against the narrative in this thread, | but aren't cameras on glasses necessary to achieve AR? Are people | concerned about these glasses just because it's Facebook, or is | there broader opposition to AR technology? | macrolime wrote: | These glasses have no AR though, just a camera. | aierou wrote: | If these were AR glasses first, would we have accepted the | cameras as a necessary evil? If that is the case, then the | concern seems superficial. | briandear wrote: | For me, it's because Facebook. They have no track record of | trust. I work for a significant Silicon Valley tech company and | have seen up close the types of shenanigans that have been | attempted by Facebook -- especially with their mobile apps. | Don't trust them. | e3bc54b2 wrote: | > They have no track record of trust. | | Its worse. They have a consistent track record for asking for | trust and then breaking it in most abusive way possible, then | issuing a non-apology only after getting caught and then | repeating same process all-over again. Oh, I forgot | mentioning FB getting rich in the process, so it somehow | becomes justified and has zero chance for change. | aierou wrote: | Aren't all recorded breaches of trust (outside of | admittedly predatory data collection schemes endemic to the | software industry) the result of unprecedented attacks on | social networks as a construct? How would one anticipate | such attacks? | | I think it's fair to say that Facebook grew too quickly to | mitigate the issues inherent to social networks at scale. I | _don 't_ think that makes them abusive or evil, just naive. | bobthepanda wrote: | There was that one time they conducted a study on emotion | manipulation on 700,000 people without informed consent. | | https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/30/facebo | ok-... | freeone3000 wrote: | Remember the time they asked for your phone number for | 2FA and then used it for contact linking? | aierou wrote: | From my position, the mobile app shenanigans look like little | more than intracompany politics. Where Facebook is not | getting data, Apple or Google are still happily collecting. | | Overall, I would guess that there is no track record of trust | because expectations remain unclear. Concepts of privacy, | data usage, and such _didn 't exist_ before Facebook and | others. I suppose I am not eager to assume malintent outside | what is standard for any business operating for the sake of | profit. | amelius wrote: | We should take away the incentive for these companies to | abuse our data. | pmoriarty wrote: | _" Concepts of privacy, data usage, and such didn't exist | before Facebook and others."_ | | They did exist before Facebook. | | But not before "others", which include every company and | person who ever existed. Not sure why you added "and | others" to that sentence. | aierou wrote: | Sorry, yes, that is poorly worded on my part. I meant to | say that there is a class of privacy discussion that | essentially did not exist prior to the widespread | adoption of social media. | jayd16 wrote: | I think its pretty much just a complaint against Facebook. You | could buy the first gen Snap Spectacles and its the same thing, | no? | fortran77 wrote: | THat's my thought, too. Anyone who wants to hide a camera on | their person can do so easily. A small hole in a shirt, coat, | or hat can conceal a lens and cameras can be tiny. Yet | nobody's rushing out to pass laws against "concealable | cameras" in general. | yati wrote: | You also have to see how easy these will be to use, with a | dedicated app and all, compared to hiding a camera. In | practice, if I spot a hidden cam on someone interacting | with me in public, I'd call them out, but socially it would | e super awkward to ask someone to put their glasses away. | But I agree the FB association might be making people extra | uncomfortable (can't blame them!) | billti wrote: | For AR they will need some ability to interpret the world | around them, but high res photography isn't the only way. Think | Lidar and the like already used to get a spatial understanding, | or the infrared dots used in some face/body recognition. I | expect that companies that are more "privacy" focus will avoid | a camera, or at least any ability for apps to directly access | the images from them if they do have them. | concordDance wrote: | Why are people up in arms about this? Imagine a transhuman future | where we all have superhuman memory and have integrated mind | machine interfaces, able to perfectly transfer information | between ourselves. Would you insist that people's memories be | degraded to be close to the average memory quality? Or would you | prevent them from transferring the information via things like | degrading their perfect drawing skills? (Or maybe just make | drawing people's faces from memory without their consent illegal? | Presumably while also making it illegal to do things like sharing | a high fidelity memory with a friend or spouse) | bobthepanda wrote: | I live in an all-party consent state, and would like to keep it | that way. I don't want to be traced through other people's | recordings, particularly through something that is easy to | always have on. | concordDance wrote: | So what is your solution to the dilemma I pose? Forced memory | degradation or prevention of memory transfer? | pronlover723 wrote: | I just reported to my friends that bobthepanda posted a | message on hacker news. I didn't ask for your consent to tell | them. I also told my sister about a conversation I had with a | friend. I didn't ask the friend's permission to share. | bobthepanda wrote: | but that doesn't scale, and isn't super high fidelity | anyways (eyewitness recall is notoriously bad). | | Just because something is possible, doesn't mean we should | make more extreme versions of it possible. | tiernano wrote: | Cause it's Facebook... Any other company, sign me up... But | fuck you Facebook.... | wortelefant wrote: | great, so my RayBan wayfarer glasses will soon be regarded as | suspicious | noident wrote: | This is why I've completely ruled out buying another pair of | Ray-Bans again, and I've owned several in the past. | kmlx wrote: | what's the difference between these glasses and the snapchat | spectacles? | | https://www.spectacles.com/ | siva7 wrote: | The new Spectacles are not for sale. They're built for creators | looking to push the limits of immersive AR experiences. | kmlx wrote: | the new spectacles aren't for sale. the old ones are. | | and the fb glasses look like spectacles v1. | | maybe i'm missing something, but it feels like fb just | launched a product that was already out there for a while | now. | fsociety wrote: | And what is the end goal of Spectacles? Surely to do more | than just be exclusive for creators. | guilhas wrote: | You can already by hidden camera sun glasses on amazon ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-09-18 23:00 UTC)