[HN Gopher] Why We Picture Bombs as Round Black Balls with a Bur... ___________________________________________________________________ Why We Picture Bombs as Round Black Balls with a Burning Wick (2016) Author : leohonexus Score : 170 points Date : 2021-09-19 12:24 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.atlasobscura.com) | hughrr wrote: | Interesting read. | | I always think of Batman https://youtu.be/9pSD26bGy3I | ryantgtg wrote: | Sorta related to round black bombs: I recently watched The Spy | Who Loved Me, and realized that this is where I got the idea that | grenades aren't thrown like baseballs; instead, you gotta do a | kinda straight-armed huck over your shoulder. Not sure if that | grenade throw is grounded in reality, or just a thing that war | movies made up. | [deleted] | tus89 wrote: | > However, the black, spherical bomb, wick slowly burning away to | a boom, has remained the understood image for an explosive. | | According to who? Citation needed. | Taniwha wrote: | I want to know where the whole "do I cut the red wire or the blue | wire?" trope comes from ..... surely you just pull the detonator | out then cut its wires | js2 wrote: | Maybe the movie _Juggernaut_ (1974), but where its writers got | the idea, who knows. | | https://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/3957/what-was-the... | | https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WireDilemma | tetha wrote: | Hm. I'd suggest a second advantage of the "ball with fuse" or | "stick with fuse" - and from there, the "C4 with unrealistic | timer LED" makes a lot of sense: | | The fuse can act as an agent of suspense, just as Hitchcock | described it. It's a very simple indicator - a red dot or a | flame, and the length of the fuse is how long to go until an | earth-shattering kaboom. And it's obvious what's going to happen | to a character if they hold it, so it's easy to create suspense. | "Oh no, now the protagonist has the bomb. Oh yes, now the villain | has it. Oh no, now the villain tricked the protagonist and put | the bomb in their pants!" | | That is much more interesting from a story telling point of view | than a realistic bomb - a bunch of C4 with a mobile phone | strapped to it and zero way to understand when it will ruin your | day. Unless you include the trigger for those in the story, but | then complexity grows. | theshadowknows wrote: | Extra points for "earth-shattering kaboom" :) | HungSu wrote: | Marvin is everyone's favourite martian | cronix wrote: | It was really the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator | that was Marvin's draw. | humanistbot wrote: | Haven't you seen a modern action movie where there is a block | of C4 with a big digital timer counting down to 00:00? Seems to | be used to the exact same dramatic effect. | dylan604 wrote: | Or a movie where the villian spends half the movie asking | "where are my detonators?" If they are using detonators, | rarely are there bright red oversized LEDs counters, or the | loosely attached, spiraly wound wires just begging someone to | ask "blue or red?" | dEnigma wrote: | That's exactly what they're saying. Look at the first | paragraph. | TheOtherHobbes wrote: | Act 3 in a traditional three act story structure is sometimes | called The Ticking Clock because it's traditional to include a | countdown. | | Having a literal countdown timer - usually for a bomb - is a | standard trope in action thrillers. But any kind of deadline | will do. | laurent92 wrote: | Now, when I see a bomb in movies, I always measure the | countdown. The fact that they extend it kills quite a lot of | suspense. | cheschire wrote: | What are some good search queries to learn more about these | types of standard structures, especially as it pertains to | film and TV? | karlkeefer wrote: | https://tvtropes.org/ has a ton of this kind of thing - not | sure if that scratches your itch! | jholman wrote: | Holy shit, just linking to an meme weapon like that, and | not warning people? Not cool! | | To the uninitiated, do not follow that link unless you | don't have anything else you need to do today. It is | famous for destroying days of productivity. | od1nos wrote: | You can browse for all of them on https://tvtropes.org/ | bbarnett wrote: | Bugs bunny is why. Seriously. Most popular cartoon of its time, | every kid of the era (40s to 70s) watched it... | danans wrote: | Perhaps an insidious follow on to the cartoon bomb is the | unrealistic and desensitizing depiction of it's aftermath: In | the cartoons it's just a frowning or dumbfounded character | covered in soot instead of the reality of being dismembered. | macintux wrote: | When I read recently about the 15-year-old girl who | deliberately targeted and killed a runner on the road, who | laughed as he flew over her car, I wondered whether kids have | gotten used to seeing people survive collisions like that in | the movies. | danans wrote: | I suspect that person had deeper issues than | desensitization. I liken it more to our ability to tune out | the effects of drone strikes. | rsynnott wrote: | But by the time it was made, bombs hadn't looked like that for | a century; it doesn't in itself explain the persistence. | cabalamat wrote: | It's for the same reason that we "fire" guns or that a motion | picture is called a "film": technology changes but the symbols we | use to refer to it stay the same. | tosser0001 wrote: | I picture them that way mostly because of all the games of | Stratego I played as a kid. I was surprised not to see it | mentioned in the article! | 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote: | What I would like to know is why vibrating devices like razors or | dildos are regularly being considered as indicating a bomb. Why | would a bomb vibrate prior to exploding? | evan_ wrote: | Cell phone trigger? | lostlogin wrote: | Doesn't make much sense that way either, unless the bomb has | malfunctioned. If it's vibrating, surely the bombs going off? | kortilla wrote: | Well you have to turn it on before it explodes... | 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote: | Explain - how does igniting a bomb require vibration? | amin wrote: | This Atlas Obscura website seems interesting. As a long time | volunteer for Wikipedia, I try to avoid it as much as possible. A | hundred people editing one article, with zero editorial | oversight, leads to dogshit articles that are not enjoyable to | read. | jackfoxy wrote: | The article dismisses the _stringy_ fuse because spherical mortar | bombs had a hollow wooden fuse, but 18th and early 19th century | hand grenades were also spherical and had a _stringy_ fuse. | anigbrowl wrote: | There are still products using that form factor and same basic | mechanism (burning fuse, initiated by a spring-loaded striker). | | https://www.defense-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/0... | mrkramer wrote: | Cartoons are one hell of a drug especially for kids. I miss them | so much. | Matthias1 wrote: | Interesting parallel here to the floppy disk icon being used for | "save". It's quite possible that icon is ubiquitous enough that, | without a push to change it, it sticks around for 100 years as | well. | fencepost wrote: | Are you referring to the vending machine icon? | gumby wrote: | Which itself embodies an archaic remnant: the "floppy" disk | icon is most often the 3.5 inch disk (the one with a metal | shutter) which was in fact rigid. | | Actual "floppy" disks (8" and later 5.25") were flexible and | needed a slightly more rigid sleeve to make them easy to | handle. The 3.5" ones needed the sleeve to protect the medium | (the actual disk). | bitwize wrote: | 3.5" floppy disks were made of iron oxide on a flexible | plastic disc encased inside a rigid shell. Only the shell was | rigid. | stan_rogers wrote: | Well, the shell and the metal drive ring at the centre of | the disc (something 8" and 51/4" floppies didn't have). | Maursault wrote: | I always thought the 3.5" were distinctly referred to as a | _diskette_ as opposed to the earlier larger _floppy disk_ , | but, apparently, the term "diskette" was introduced by IBM | in 1973, and then ultimately became a synonym for any floppy | disk, perhaps similarly to Kleenex, Laundromat, Xerox, Taser, | Google, et al. | bityard wrote: | As someone who was around for at least a portion of that | time period, nobody ever actually called them diskettes | except for the people who designed the packaging and | marketing material. | matzab wrote: | ...and Germans. | SuchAnonMuchWow wrote: | ... and Frenchs. | deepsun wrote: | ... and all East Europeans. | joseluis wrote: | ... in Spain too, were called disquetes. | beebeepka wrote: | Ha, but here in Bulgaria we call them diskettes. We used | to put our diskettes in our floppy drives. Not | understanding what the words mean sometimes creates funny | situations like this | jaclaz wrote: | Well, anecdata, late '80's office computers were changed and | the new ones only had 3.5" floppy drives while older ones all | had 5.25" ones. | | Someone managed to insert a 5.25" floppy in the gap between | the covers for the (empty) 5.25" bays just over the 3.5" | drive slot. | | It makes some strange impression to me to talk of floppies in | the past and to think that many people never actually saw one | (let alone use it). | | A:las poor floppy, I knew you well. [0] | | [0] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2905953.stm | Beldin wrote: | Fun Foone Fact: the 3.5 inch floppies apparently were 3.54 | inch. | | https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1439239118991413254 | salawat wrote: | This is not uncommon. The term you are looking for is | nominal dimension. | michaelcampbell wrote: | Indeed; in the US anyway the ubiquitous "2x4" lumber is | in fact 1 1/2" x 3 1/2". | genewitch wrote: | If you're making 2x4 lumber you cut 2x4, someone else | planes it down to the final, finished size. | | One can use rough cut lumber for building but it throws | off everything a half inch at a time, so your final wall | may not fit or be attached. | michaelcampbell wrote: | I've had many a 3 1/2" disk apart, and the "spinning bit" was | in fact not rigid. | | Perhaps this was during my early college days and I could | only afford the cheap ones. | marvin wrote: | I'm told some folks in their early 20s were shown a 3.5 inch | floppy disk and asked what it was. They replied <<3D printed | model of the save icon>>. | Shared404 wrote: | Would depend on the folks probably. | | I'm in my early 20s, and know what a 3.5" floppy looks | like, but I know others who don't. | | Also, of those of us who do there's probably a 50% chance | that we'd say "3D printed save icon" as a joke! | sophacles wrote: | The disk itself was floppy, and basically the same as the | larger disks. The case around them was rigid. | United857 wrote: | The 3.5 inch disks took off around the same time as Windows | did (the Mac had always used them) so probably no coincidence | that's that the save icon represents. | moron4hire wrote: | The actual disk portion on the inside was the floppy part, so | it's still a "floppy disk". The rigid part on the outside was | called the cassette. | alisonkisk wrote: | and "cassette tapes" (for computer or | radio/stereo/receiver) are the same material, but the | magnetic media is in a roll of tape instead of a spinning | disk shape. | moron4hire wrote: | Man, I seriously miss cassettes and cartridges, | especially for video games. I recently bought a Nintendo | 2DS for my young kids--having missed out on it during its | original run myself, and observing that the children grow | rather extreme behavioural issues if we let them play on | iPads--and even those tiny little cartridges just have | something to them. It makes the games feel more real to | me, versus downloaded apps just taking up an icon on a | screen. | genewitch wrote: | I banned Disney/ABC at my house due to the same observed | behavioral issues. YouTube is a mixed bag, I observe what | the youngest is watching and he always listens when I | tell him to pick something else to watch. | | There are some games that for past some radar like the | "Buddy" series - it seems innocuous but it's all about | dismemberment of the buddy character. It's "funny" in the | way "Happy Tree Friends" is funny. Less so to the plastic | developing psyche of a toddler. | oneeyedpigeon wrote: | > it sticks around for 100 years as well | | Only if the concept of manual save sticks around that long. | im3w1l wrote: | Even in systems that continously save your progress there is | a close analogue to manual save: Named revisions. Bookmarks | of points in history that are better than the surrounding | ones - points where some milestone has been reached, and some | amount of proofreading done. Where there are no duplicated | paragraphs or major rough edges like that. | codetrotter wrote: | But the floppy icon would not be a good fit for depicting | named revisions | gumby wrote: | Sure, it's copying your revision to a disk, writing the | date on the label, and sticking it in a box. | jcims wrote: | The only difference between what is being described here | and what we have been working with until today is how far | undo/redo go. | | For the most part the intent is to memorialize a snapshot | of the work, a task the floppy icon has been fulfilling | all along. | dylan604 wrote: | If the current document is Untitled, New File, No Name, | etc and does not actually point to a file, then the | ubiquitous Floppy icon should act as Save As. Once the | file does exist, a simple Shift-click of the same floppy | icon should also act as Save As. Same thing as Cmd-S/Cmd- | Shfit-S. However, I'm unfamiliar with this modifier click | save as from any app. | _Microft wrote: | What's the alternative? Autosaves? Did it autosave or did it | not? Where did it save it to? Locally or to the cloud? Are | the servers available? Does it make clear when they are not? | Or worse, does it fail silently if they are not? | | Call me old-fashioned but please give me a save button and a | file picker ;) | bitwize wrote: | Does it matter? The only thing that matters to the end user | is that the changes they made to their document persist. | And they should persist by default, not only when the user | issues a Save command. | dylan604 wrote: | I don't know, I sort of enjoy being able to make changes, | see they didn't work/not necessary/etc, and then just | closing the document hitting "Don't save" vs hitting undo | until returning to last saved state (which was when | exactly???). Bonus points for apps that have an actual | Revert feature. | oneeyedpigeon wrote: | Maybe file management will map closer to revision control | one day. Autosave would be the equivalent of a regular | commit, closing the document would be a tagged commit of | some sort. Your "hitting undo until returning to last | saved state" would then be a single step, reverting to a | timed, possibly named point. | dylan604 wrote: | For text based files, I think a versioning like system | built into the filesystem would be ideal. Each save is | just the diff. A nice UI to see/revert changes. Yet the | lack of commit type messages would make those changes | less friendly. I don't want to be burdened/slowed down | with commit messages everytime I hit Cmd-S. | | However, this would not work for binary type files like | MOV, PSD, etc. | chongli wrote: | Storing diffs is not a great idea since then it requires | that you apply them all to get the latest version. | Notably, git does not store files as diffs [1] which is | one of the reasons it's so much faster than older diff- | based VCSes. | | [1] https://stackoverflow.com/a/43364484 | leohonexus wrote: | Ah, this reminds me of YesterCode, a tool that lets you | scrub through code changes like a timeline. | | Relevant HN thread: | https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~azh/blog/yestercode.html | userbinator wrote: | I was forced to use Microsoft OneNote for a while and it | was probably designed by someone with that mentality, and | I absolutely HATE it. People manage to put unwanted | changes into important pages all the time (the horrible | Win10 default of not clearly indicating the focused | window is certainly related, but that's another rant...) | and the fact that it instantly syncs to the cloud for | everyone else to see, made for some major embarrassment | and irritation. | | Changes should be saved with deliberation, not | "whenever". | jader201 wrote: | I'm both old and old fashioned, but I'll take auto-save any | day over manual save, especially something that required | manual save without support of auto-save. | | I've lost enough work prior to auto-save being common that | I never want to deal with an app that doesn't somehow save | my work pretty frequently. | oefrha wrote: | > I've lost enough work prior to auto-save being common | | And you didn't develop the habit of compulsive Ctrl-S | every five seconds? ;) | atoav wrote: | I like autosaves as well, but as a "I didn't save | manually but there is always an autosave"-option. Saving | is also a file managment choice. | dylan604 wrote: | It really depends on what the app is though, yeah? If I'm | in document processing or spreadsheet where you might be | working for long periods where a 5min auto-save kicks in | could be convenient. However, when I'm writing code that | then needs to make rapid changes like updating CSS/JS/etc | to be refreshed in browser, then I'm not waiting 5 mins | for an autosave. Cmd-S, Cmd-tab, Shift-Cmd-R, boom. | | However, Cmd-S is so engrained into the muscle memory, | that it's almost instinctual to hit it after every press | of a semi-colon. | IgorPartola wrote: | If I type in _rm -rf /_ and pause for a moment trying to | remember if I'm trying to delete /var/log/apache2/ or | /usr/local/var/log/apache2/ in a dev environment that | auto-executes code when I save it I would strongly prefer | that it wait until I manually save. | atoav wrote: | Which is why I like Autosaves that save a copy. Blender | for example autosaves project files into it's own | location (and keeps that location clean). If you have a | crash you can still go for that autosave file and it | works in most cases - but it isn't saved in the folder | you are working in. | | For certain programs this would be overkill of course, | but for others it would be quite cool. | IgorPartola wrote: | It's interesting. I use vim which has auto-recovery built | in. But I also compulsively save. vim is so much faster | than most conventional IDEs that it's just not worth it | for me to look for an alternative to that pattern. | Zababa wrote: | > However, when I'm writing code that then needs to make | rapid changes like updating CSS/JS/etc to be refreshed in | browser, then I'm not waiting 5 mins for an autosave. | Cmd-S, Cmd-tab, Shift-Cmd-R, boom. | | VSCode has an autosave that's triggered when you change a | file. | glenneroo wrote: | I would guess that they swiped that idea (among many of | the core features of VSCode) from IntelliJ a good 10 | years after they implemented it. Too bad they can't steal | more sane ideas from JetBrains' IDEs, I might actually | consider switching ;) | Zababa wrote: | I doubt IntelliJ invented the "save on change" feature. | | > Too bad they can't steal more sane ideas from | JetBrains' IDEs, I might actually consider switching ;) | | Not being an IDE is what I like about it, my experiences | with JetBrain's IDEs weren't good. | TillE wrote: | There are reasons for manual save to exist, but I think | it's unlikely to stick around as a distinct GUI element | which requires an icon. | | Experienced users will use a keyboard shortcut, others | will rely on autosave or find the File > Save menu. Alas, | I suspect the floppy disk icon is doomed. | l33tman wrote: | Notably none of the Google Docs cloud apps have any save | button or option. | dragontamer wrote: | Saving drafts on XenForums is a floppy, even though there | is no local save involved. | | I'm sure I've seen it in other web contexts. | esprehn wrote: | Interestingly at one point Google Docs did have a save | button, which IIRC didn't actually do anything because it | would automatically save. The button was there just to | make you feel more confident. | | You can see it in the top right corner here: | https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_au/photo/g/google- | docs-2010-old... | userbinator wrote: | _The button was there just to make you feel more | confident._ | | ...and when the autosave inevitably fails, deception like | that only serves to anger your users more. | sharkweek wrote: | It took me a very long time to learn not to compulsively | hit ctrl-s while using Google docs | 2Gkashmiri wrote: | I have been doing Ctrl+s for most of my life. I type a lot | and this is like second breathing. I write a sentence, | save. Some pause, save. Looking out the window, save. Its | as common as pressing space or enter. | webwielder2 wrote: | The floppy disk icon never took off in the Apple ecosystem, so | every time I see it in Windows world it seems like a bizarre | anachronism. Which it is. Emblematic really of Apple's ethos of | plunging forward and Wintel's backwards compatibility at all | costs approach. | kitsunesoba wrote: | It's been a long time since I used classic Mac OS seriously, | but I don't think Mac apps really even used toolbars for | actions like save, undo, paste, etc. Usually toolbars were | for selecting tools (e.g. pencil, eraser, etc in paint) or | tuning settings (e.g. font and color), with actions stowed | away in menus and lacking iconographic representation. | | Thinking about it further, this is true of OS X too. Even | though it made toolbars more ubiquitous, it was still unusual | for "standard" actions to be placed there. | | I would think that a longtime Mac user probably associates | "save" with the key shortcut [?]-S more strongly than any | kind of icon. | blondin wrote: | you are making an interesting point that is shadowed by the | extra comment. the floppy disk image as "save" icon is rare | in most native mac apps. | | GP's point is quite interesting because there is a generation | or two that hasn't seen a real floppy disk beside on those | icons. they probably have no clue what it is. | | i wonder what other icon images are like that. | 00N8 wrote: | the rounded symbols for 'database' icons are based on some | ancient storage medium used in early mainframes - magnetic | drum memory I think | userbinator wrote: | I've always thought of those as more like barrels of data | (as opposed to oil). | alisonkisk wrote: | Not really. Apple taught the world the word "skeuomorphic", | making fake paper and leather and metal for their apps. | | Also, Apple famously used the OP's bomb icon whenever Mac OS | plunged forward into a crash. | Macha wrote: | However, floppy disk icons also survive in Linux, android and | web apps, at least in those which save is an explicit GUI | action, so it's really only Apple thats the outlier here | smegcicle wrote: | there does seem to be some kind of push against it, as if it's | either triggering to anyone who hasn't seen one in real life, | or maybe the ui designer is afraid someone will think they're | old and out-of-touch? | | the alternative seems to be pictures of folders and clouds with | arrows going in and out of them, when the extremely distinctive | floppy disk icon unambiguously means whatever form of 'save' is | most intuitive and useful | farmerstan wrote: | I think kids today think of bombs like cubes of tnt like | Minecraft. | Stevvo wrote: | I doubt it. Even if a kid loves playing Minecraft and doesn't | like watching cartoons, the round black ball symbol is much | more ubiquitous, they will often be exposed to it. | atoav wrote: | Bomb emoji | varjag wrote: | _And while a few images have rivaled its ubiquity (a bundle of | red dynamite tied to a ticking clock, a box labeled TNT) none | of those have been visually compelling enough to replace the | black sphere._ | wongarsu wrote: | Or wrapped blocks of C4 like in most shooters. Or the tin-can | like shape of Russian TM-46 mines that have featured in several | viral images | bogwog wrote: | Or red barrels, like in every video game ever. | bserge wrote: | Haha, red = explosive, green = toxic, blue = inert/empty. | hkon wrote: | Too bad a lot of the links does not work anymore. | LaMarseillaise wrote: | I was quite sure that this depiction of a bomb was based on 18th | century grenades, which were spherical and had a string fuse. The | word 'grenade' even comes from pomegranate, due to the visual | similarity. It seems like this depiction may have originated a | little further back than the American Civil War. | | - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenade | | - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomegranate | NAG3LT wrote: | Wow, somehow never thought that the device is named after the | fruit. Their names can be even closer in other languages, f.e. | in Russian they are nearly the same word, just different | genders. | jwhitlark wrote: | Then they doubled down with pineapple grenades... | garaetjjte wrote: | In Polish it is literally the same word, "granat", which does | function as weapon, fruit, and color (oddly enough, dark | blue). | ficklepickle wrote: | Pomegranates are from Granada. In French, Granada is | "Grenade" and pomegranate is "pomme grenade", which directly | translates to Granada apple | jcelerier wrote: | as a french I absolutely never heard "pomme grenade" for | the fruit, just "grenade" directly | Telemakhos wrote: | No. "Pomegranate" comes from the Latin "pomum granatum," | the 'fruit having many seeds.' Granum means grain or seed, | and granatus is a pseudo-participial form (like | "mentulatus") meaning 'endowed with seeds.' Granada, the | city, likely derives its name from Arabic. | teej wrote: | The pomegranate <> grenade connection all of a sudden made | "grenadine" make sene. | JoBrad wrote: | Gunpowder-infused fabric or paper was being used for fuses | around the 10th century, as well[0]. I always thought this | depiction came from fireworks, which had fuses both linking | multiple devices and also serving as a (relatively) safer point | for ignition around the 10th century, as well[1]. | | [0] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuse_(explosives) | | [1] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireworks | fuzzfactor wrote: | Back in the 1960's when road construction was underway and | diversion of lanes was necessary, at night the spherical black | kerosine lamps the size of bowling balls were still everywhere | the traffic cones were during the day. | | Modern rechargeable electricial markers that could last all | night were not common at all. | | Rows of bombs with a few inches of raw sooty flame coming from | a wick where the fuse would be. | | Drive your Model T or Edsel carefully between the lines of | flickering fire. | | Plus the Pink Panther cartoons had an associated subject line | occasionally featuring a mad French terrorist bomber often | carrying one of the round black bombs. | | This was basically ridiculing the bombers that had been in the | news terrorizing them. | | Both were enjoyed by American kids as much as domestic | cartoons, even though they were basically like silent movies, | intentionally featuring no actual dialog, intended for | international consumption without need for translation. | | All the American villians had the same kind of bombs anyway. | beardyw wrote: | My first job was in an office which got quite regular bomb | threats. We would be cleared out and the police would do a sweep. | Some of the guys were inspired to make mock-up spherical black | bombs as desk ornaments. Next bomb scare the police were very | very unamused! | | Also just remembering one day we were told to go home at 4:30. | After some digging we found that the bomb was due to go off at | 5:00. Showed a lot of faith in the bomb builders! | pliny wrote: | Why was your office getting so many bomb threats? | beardyw wrote: | Ha. A minor government department. Some folks got the idea we | were big brother. This was in the 70s. We had one computer | between 50 or so developers. It had less than 100k memory, | card input, and all tape to tape. Honestly they were deluded. | 9dev wrote: | Which is what someone working for big brother would say, of | course. | pell wrote: | I'd love to hear so much more about how it was to work in | this kind of environment back then. (Apart from those bomb | threats.) | beardyw wrote: | Off topic, but to summarise: it was (by today's | standards) so so very slow. One overnight compile per | developer per day. Programs were on cards which sometimes | got dropped or jammed. And much more time thinking than | doing. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-09-19 23:00 UTC)