[HN Gopher] The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used ___________________________________________________________________ The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used Author : samizdis Score : 1283 points Date : 2021-09-21 16:50 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (pluralistic.net) (TXT) w3m dump (pluralistic.net) | ben_ wrote: | This site uses GNU Terry Pratchett and I appreciate that. | | http://www.gnuterrypratchett.com/ | spaceisballer wrote: | I'm not in the market for a laptop in that price range, but if I | was I would seriously consider it. I've had a Thinkpad X220 for | some time now and done plenty of upgrades but changing out the | lcd worries me too much to give it a shot and the second gen | intel is starting to be a bit long in the tooth. However for | basic computing I prefer my Pinebook Pro, it's light and the | screen is great. | adminscoffee wrote: | on a fixed income because covid took out my business, how would | buying this over what it looks like be any better? granted mac | has already a ton of PR issues involving privacy, i guess this | laptop would address that? | comeonseriously wrote: | These look really good. I'll be in the market for a new linux | laptop in a couple months and I really want to give System 76 my | money because I like what they're doing, but this looks really | good. | redconfetti wrote: | I was looking at System 76, but after reading some reviews it | left me worried. | comeonseriously wrote: | Oh? How so? I've not seen anything that worried me. I'm | curious what you found, if you don't mind. | a-dub wrote: | this was always the promise of the beige towers of the 90s: | upgradability! repairability! in practice, it seemed that all | components were moving fast enough that upgrades maybe extended | the life of something by a year or two at best, but ultimately | all standards were constantly moving (buses, ram, cpu | sockets/chipsets, storage, cases and even psus). compatibility | between parts was often a crapshoot, reliability suffered because | they weren't burn in tested together and at the end of the day, | any major upgrade involved having to replace 90% of the | components anyhow. the fully integrated systems seemed to have | longer operational lifetimes, to be honest. | | that said, maybe things are moving slower now, but it seems like | a bit of a fetishization of a past that wasn't that great to | begin with. | | the focus on reducing waste is good, but honestly what is more | modular here than your average laptop with memory and storage | doors? | brightball wrote: | > I really miss my Thinkpad Trackpoint | | This is one of those comments I will never understand. Every | single time I have tried to use one of those things the only | thought that goes through my mind is, "This is the dumbest mouse | interface I have ever seen. Why would anyone ever use this | thing?" | | And then I see comments like this. I don't get it. The ergonomics | of those little nubs are _awful_. | bigpeopleareold wrote: | I use both, but for different reasons. | | For touch typing (like I am doing for this comment), using it | is much easier than moving the hands off the keyboard to get to | the trackpad. I had to get used to it, but when I did, it's | hard to not think of it there. | | When I am doing casual reading or I am doing more hurried work, | I tend to use the trackpad more. It's feels more suitable for | me as a mouse interface when the focus is not typing primarily | but more about finding things. | | I learned to use a TrackPoint with some motivation that I would | be using it a lot. I have instead found a comfortable middle | point with using both of them. | ip26 wrote: | Imagine being able to mouse literally while you type. | | That's the Trackpoint, and it makes up for everything else | about it. | uxcolumbo wrote: | It has a learning curve - for sure. | | But once you've got used to it in a couple of days, it's way | more efficient than a trackpad for type and pointing | activities. I don't have to move my arm compared to when using | a trackpad. | | This is an interesting video: | | IBM introduces "Pointing Stick" (TrackPoint) (1990) | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Ss6F1qIHU | jklinger410 wrote: | >This is the dumbest mouse interface I have ever seen | | And some people think, wow this is a great interface. | | Awesome comment! | rockostrich wrote: | Maybe it's an acquired taste? I have fond memories of using | nubs on ThinkPads. I think Apple's done a great job at | improving the trackpad experience on Macbooks but it still | doesn't compare to not needing to leave the keyboard and also | never needing to lift your finger to continue moving the mouse. | dnr wrote: | This is one of those religious arguments where no one will | every change their mind, but I feel like a trackpad is the | dumbest mouse interface and can't use anything but a trackpoint | (or a mouse of course). | | Consider dragging and dropping: with a trackpoint you click | with your thumb, then use your pointer finger to move the mouse | cursor any distance you like, without moving your hand, then | release. With a trackpad you press the pad and then move your | finger some distance and then... oops, you hit the edge of the | pad. Better abort and try again, starting the motion from the | opposite pad. Except if I'm on a non-apple trackpad, and I have | to click near the top of the pad, it's nearly impossible | because the click hinge is near the top. Or maybe I do a finger | swap to reset the drag position, and hope that the OS doesn't | interpret my moment of two fingers touching as some kind of | gesture. | | Anyway, it does take some time to get used to, so you won't get | it in a few minutes or even a few hours. Try a week. Also make | sure you're using a lenovo one (the dell/toshiba ones aren't as | good), and very importantly, that you have a fresh cap. Worn | out caps make it really frustrating. | philjohn wrote: | I was a big proponent of the trackpoint for the longest time | - the first laptop I used in the mid 90's (a Toshiba | Satellite) had one and then I used Thinkpads for years. | | Then I got a MBP at work in 2016 and haven't looked back - | but they were far better than most other trackpads for the | longest time. | turtlebits wrote: | While I'm not going to argue your preference for a | trackpoint, dragging with a trackpad is not as you describe. | You just leave your thumb "clicked" and reposition your index | finger. | | IME, using a trackpoint is okay for smaller laptop screens, | but going from monitor to monitor kinda sucks. | TimTheTinker wrote: | macOS has an option (in the accessibility prefs) to enable | three-finger trackpad dragging. | | It's incredible to use, especially in concert with Magnet | (a window management app). Three-finger-drag a window to | the top of the screen and it's instantly maximized. | Selecting text is also a breeze. | schmorptron wrote: | Does that not get in the way of the 3 finger swipe-up to | open the activities screen? | mdavidn wrote: | Mission Control and App Expose change to 4-finger | gestures after 3-finger dragging is enabled. | TimTheTinker wrote: | Do you mean Mission Control? That can be configured in | Trackpad prefs to respond to 4 finger swipe-up instead. | FullyFunctional wrote: | Wow, thanks for that tip. It's awesome and feels so | natural. | | I really hope Ubuntu and friends get "inspired" by all | the touchpad gestures in macOS. | TimTheTinker wrote: | Agreed. If I were to switch to a Framework laptop, the | Mac trackpad would be the loss I'd feel the most (closely | followed by the DisplayPostscript-powered macOS window | manager). | orthecreedence wrote: | It's phenomenal on airplanes and buses where your elbows are | extremely constrained and you want to keep your hands on the | keyboard. | fnord77 wrote: | it was ok if you set the sensitivity to maximum. but then you | had to train yourself to move the mouse accurately with the | tiniest amount of pressure. | OJFord wrote: | I've never had a laptop with one long enough to get used to it, | but I assume it's because it's right there in the keyboard | where your hands already are, rather than because it's any | better at moving the pointer around than a trackpad/mouse. | poetaster wrote: | For all my love of chording and old macs, for that matter, | trackpoint touch typist I will ever remain. I rever Doctorow, | but I reward myself otherwise. Smoking Cuban on occassion. A | new used thinkpad every 2 years or ssd. The builds run in obs | and writing can nicely obtain on a light x220. | bm3719 wrote: | I use these exclusively and have the trackpad disabled on my | Thinkpad (an old x230). | | The #1 reason I use it is to not move my hands when I need to | do a pointing operation. You can get very precise with it too, | but it takes some getting used to. I'm a klutz with a trackpad | now, since I've been using the pointer for so many years. I use | a tiling window manager and very few GUI apps (often even using | the web in w3m), so mousing isn't as important for me, which is | another factor. | | I wouldn't play a video game with it, of course, but I'd | imagine trackpads suck at those too. | itomato wrote: | You don't mouse like I do. | | Trackpoints come with The Proper Number of Buttons; 3. | | You copy and paste text with a trackpoint. | | You scroll with a trackpoint. | | You switch workspaces with a trackpoint. | | You can also mouse around, but it's why there's also a pad, | bluetooth and USB. | | It's not lesser, it is more, a lot more. | hyperion2010 wrote: | Counterpoint. I won't use a keyboard without one. I use a | mechanical keyboard with a trackpoint. Not having a trackpoint | means that I don't even have to think about whether I will buy | a laptop, I already know that I won't. Touchpads have gotten | better, but nothing beats the nub. | | That being said, every laptop I have ever owned has had a | trackpoint, so I'm a definitely biased. | bigpeopleareold wrote: | When I am on any laptop, the first impulse for me has always | been to reach for the TrackPoint. I always get disoriented | for a moment when it isn't on a laptop keyboard. I take the | device for granted :) | | I really really do hope framework will add a trackpoint | option in the future. I would hate to unlearn this | comfortable feature now. | fouric wrote: | Did you build that keyboard yourself, or buy it pre-made? If | the former, where did you get the trackpoint? I have a | Dactyl-Manuform that is nearly perfect, modulo the trackpoint | (and wireless, better firmware than QMK, and a few other | things), and I'm looking for one that I can use without | cannibalizing an innocent thinkpad keyboard. | hyperion2010 wrote: | I started out building my own (story for another account) | but now that TEX makes the Shinobi [0] it is my daily | driver. There are some split mechs that have been modded | [1,2] which are closer the Dactyl, but that would | definitely be a custom job. | | 0. https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi 1. https://www.reddi | t.com/r/thinkpad/comments/hz8flk/ergonomic_... 2. | https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82599.0 | chx wrote: | > I use a mechanical keyboard with a trackpoint. Not having a | trackpoint means that I don't even have to think about | whether I will buy a laptop, I already know that I won't. | | Same here. TEX Shinobi? | hyperion2010 wrote: | Yep. | fouric wrote: | There are many other replies about how the trackpoint is | ergonomically superior to a trackpad. | | I'll add some nuance: it's entirely possible that a trackpoint | is most valuable when your workload is majority typing with | some mousing, as opposed to the other way around - so maybe you | just have a different workload than most trackpoint users. | | Separately - how long did you actually spend trying to use one? | Most things have learning curves. You can't unlock most of the | potential of a keyboard until you've spent dozens of hours | learning how to type, so why shouldn't the same apply to a | pointing device? | halotrope wrote: | Its all about leaving the hands on the home row. If you don't | touch type you will not ,,get" it. | chias wrote: | I bought one the same day I heard about it via one of Andrew | Gallant's Twitter threads [1]. With the exception of the screen | (I promised myself my next laptop would be 15" instead of 13"), | this is pretty much exactly what I've always wanted in a laptop, | and I'm very excited for my October ship date. | | [1] https://twitter.com/burntsushi5/status/1433823144649842694 | bambax wrote: | > _I 've bought a new Thinkpad almost every year since 2006_ | | But why?? If the current one isn't broken, why would you need to | buy a new laptop and go through the hassle of setting it up? | | My laptop is from 2013 and is still fine. Parts of my desktop | computer are from 2007 -- the case is from 1993, and nothing is | more recent than 2015, and everything is running super smooth. | | Getting an entire new machine every single year sounds | hysterical. But maybe I don't know what I don't know. | porb121 wrote: | Sometimes people describe their problems with some technology | and it makes me realize that we live completely different | lives. I can't imagine buying the same device year after year, | whether that's a phone, laptop, or whatever. | bink wrote: | Not only that but when they were using Macbooks they were | apparently _buying two_ and keeping them in sync? I get some | people can't be without a laptop for long periods of time but | that seems absurd to me. Keep a backup disk. They even say | they have a pile of old laptops that are presumably still | usable. | xipho wrote: | The author states they travelled 27 days a month, every month. | I doubt many people put that much stress on their laptops. | fouc wrote: | Traveling 27 days a month might sound impressive but it | shouldn't really put extra wear on laptops in general. I | frequently work from cafes and such and put my laptop into my | backpack on an almost daily basis, and it's fine after years. | I don't even use a padded sleeve or other special protection. | xipho wrote: | YRMV. I've damaged 3 laptops in ~ 15 years. All have been | during international trips when fatigue and unfamiliarity | grew and Loki struck. | yobert wrote: | If you read a little lower in the article he mentions it being | a reward mechanism for stopping smoking. So each year he | doesn't smoke, he rewards himself with a new laptop. Good | strategy! | bambax wrote: | Yeah, this is rationalizing. You don't need to reward | yourself every year for something you do once. You quit | smoking, you get a reward, end of story. | | Also, and that's where we differ (and kind of my point): | setting up a new computer isn't a reward for me, it's a | punishment. | RSchaeffer wrote: | Quitting smoking isn't a one-time event. Anyone with an | addiction will tell you that it's a lifelong struggle. | danso wrote: | I think for some folks, quitting smoking isn't a simple | one-time event, but a lifelong ongoing challenge | superdisk wrote: | If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid. | [deleted] | eikenberry wrote: | You don't quit smoking once. You quit smoking every day. I | haven't smoked in >10 years and I'm still quitting. | Physical dependence on nicotine takes a long time to | recover from. | bambax wrote: | That's not my experience. I was a heavy smoker for over | 15 years (around 2 packs a day); then I quit. It was | hard. Extremely hard. In fact I stayed in bed for 2 weeks | because I didn't dare stand up and go into the world, and | I couldn't think of anything else. | | But after the withdrawal symptoms receded, that was that. | It was over. I can't even remember what it was that I | liked about it. | | Of course that's just me, and experiences differ. But | quitting smoking is its own reward, and I don't mean | physically or health-wise. You're free! You don't need to | spend time thinking about where the nearest tobacco shop | is and if you have enough change to buy more cigarettes | to get through the night. | | I would argue that if you need to reward yourself every | year for quitting, you didn't actually _quit_. You | stopped putting cigarettes in your mouth, but you 're | still a "smoker". | eikenberry wrote: | I thought it was pretty much a fixed medical aspect of | quitting smoking that it would take your body | years/decades to regain the ability to regulate | adrenaline production properly. That you would suffer | occasional adrenaline surges during that period. | | I was beginning to wonder if they'd ever subside. So it's | good to know someone doesn't experience it. Though I have | become used to them over the years and, in some | situations, are not all bad. | carpo wrote: | For some people giving up an addiction is an ongoing | battle, not a one time and done thing. | pavlov wrote: | Well, computers used to be more interesting. A 2006 laptop | was at least 2x times faster than a 2003 laptop, with lower | power consumption and better thermal design, better screen, | etc. | maxerickson wrote: | Guy should have thought more about what you wanted to read | when he wrote the article. | bambax wrote: | Yeah, it happens often. | jonnycomputer wrote: | Once an addict, always an addict. I haven't smoked since | 2007, but I'm humble enough to know how easy it would be to | pick it up again. In fact, if I lived in Poland again, I | very well might have. But in the US being a non-smoker has | never been easier. | freedomben wrote: | Have you ever been a smoker? | bambax wrote: | Yep. | CitrusFruits wrote: | If you read later on the author gives their rationale: | | "I started buying a new laptop every year as a reward to myself | for quitting smoking. ... The environmental consequences of | that system weren't lost on me, even given my very good track- | record of re-homing my old computers with people who needed | them." | ansible wrote: | > _Parts of my desktop computer are from 2007 -- the case is | from 1993,_ | | How does that work? That predates the ATX form factor spec | released by Intel in 1995. | | I had a ginormous PC/AT compatible tower case at that time, | very large, very heavy, all steel. IIRC, it had 8 5.25in | external drive bays. | | In retrospect, the ATX form factor has been rather long-lived, | though there are plenty of competing form factors these days. | bambax wrote: | It works fine. It has 6 5.25 bays, and 2 3.5 ones. It is | steel and heavy, but it never moves. | moepstar wrote: | Looks gorgeous - i wonder how the trackpad is though, otherwise | seems to be a solid contender to a Macbook... | joombaga wrote: | It's pretty good. The click is definitely better than my | 16-inch MBP (it's physical instead of motor-driven). Moving the | cursor feels precise. | sonofhans wrote: | I wonder about the trackpad, too. Apple has always smoked | everyone else at trackpads. After using theirs for so many | years, every time I touch another it feels crusty and | unresponsive. | nsriv wrote: | With Windows installs, they use Windows Precision drivers and | feel at least as good as a Surface Book trackpad. YMMV with | Linux however. | OJFord wrote: | With Linux, worth following (or funding!) this work (HN | passim): https://bill.harding.blog/2021/06/06/linux-touchpad- | like-mac... | canadian_tired wrote: | This is a great leap ahead, and makes me happy. But I would also | like to do a shoutout to a local-to-me company that has been | around for _decades_ and have always had a decent amount of | modularity. https://eurocom.com/ec/main()ec. They have always | went the way of more power over smaller size. | ZeroGravitas wrote: | Ooh. They've definately got a sale if an ortholinear keyboard | variant with thumbkeys is an option. | | I wonder if they'll do ARM variants? | mrfusion wrote: | Do they make a desktop too? Can it handle gaming like minecraft? | henearkr wrote: | I'd really love a version of the Framework with buffed up graphic | cards, such as a RTX or equiv. | | That would place them above System76 in my ranking, and it is the | only criterion stopping my hand to purchase one right now... | mrfusion wrote: | This is a small competitor right now but this is the definition | of disruptive innovation and it should scare the cuss out of | Apple. This is what people want. | oblio wrote: | The general population absolutely does not care. | JoeDaDude wrote: | Include an option to include a software defined radio and I'm in. | bityard wrote: | Those little square modules are just USB-C ports, I believe, so | jamming an RTL-SDR dongle inside a 3D-printed case shouldn't be | a monumental task. | superkuh wrote: | But why? Putting a SDR in a laptop seems counterproductive from | an electrical and radio interference POV. The USB2/3 ports are | the option to plug in a software defined radio. Unless you mean | some pcie interface top end SDR, in which case you probably | have the money to throw around to get this custom. | javajosh wrote: | Yeah I saw Louis Rossman unbox one and immediately got on the | waiting list. My 2013 MBPr is finally going to retire! | jjice wrote: | I'm just waiting for an excuse to purchase a Framework laptop. My | thinkpad is hanging in there (2014 model, purchased used) and I | have a desktop that is more than powerful enough for the type of | development I do on my own time. As soon as I get the chance, | I'll be ordering one of these. Hopefully there's an AMD version | out by then! | mvexel wrote: | Has the Lenovo warranty really gotten worse? The author doesn't | specify but speaks of the "incredible" warranty on the Thinkpads | in the past tense. I purchased an X220 in 2011 with the 3 year | next business day warranty plan and it was awesome the couple of | times I had to use it. I recently purchased an X13 to replace it | with the same warranty plan, assuming it would still be as good. | Not true? | | (By the way, Kubuntu installed and ran almost without issues on | this 2021 X13 out of the box. Only minor issue was with sleep / | suspend but that ended up being a BIOS setting. Apparently there | is a "Windows" and a "Linux" sleep state.) | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | > Apparently there is a "Windows" and a "Linux" sleep state | | IIRC, Linux uses an actual S3 suspend, where NT has moved to a | low-power mode that never actually halts the processor - | "always on sleep" or something? | saltmeister wrote: | yea Linus already said it | jiggliemon wrote: | This guy must be James Bond. I've had my 2013 MacBook Pro since | it came out and I never needed service on it. My 2016 MacBook | Pro, no service. 2020 MacBook Pro, no service. | | I like that this company is making completely replaceable parts | though. The idea of being able to upgrade ram again sounds like a | real benefit... it's embarrassing that sentence even has to be | muttered. | BoysenberryPi wrote: | I really really want this laptop but my work has become | increasingly GPU dependent. Hopefully they release a model with a | lightweight GPU. | TremendousJudge wrote: | Yes, this is exactly my view too. I need this in my life but it | just doesn't fit my workload | recov wrote: | Same here, also waiting for AMD | n8ta wrote: | First exciting laptop I've seen in a very long time! | | Would love to see ethernet (if it's even possible with this | thinness) and a regular SD port. | simon_weber wrote: | An ethernet card is in the works: https://twitter.com/framework | puter/status/139594629558862233.... It looks like full-sized SD | was popular in that poll too. | IE6 wrote: | As a long time thinkpad user I love mine. Only problem I have now | is my go-to OS Ubuntu does a really bad job of fractional scaling | out of the box and none of the workarounds seem to really solve | the problem. Sadly the crappy screens on my thinkpads more or | less "hid" this problem from me for years. | ThatMedicIsASpy wrote: | as a thinkpad user - there is no keyboard comparable to it. and | that is one of the most important component (in a laptop) to me | joombaga wrote: | I'm using 150% on Pop!_OS (an Ubuntu derivative) with Wayland | and it looks great. | aeyes wrote: | The laptop being modular, can another company sell a keyboard for | it or would that infringe a trademark / void the warranty? | the_other wrote: | But why the dongles? The go against all the principles of the | rest of the design. They're proprietary, consumable, and they | waste space in the chasis. They limit what you can do with the | USB-C they pass through too. | azdle wrote: | They're not totally proprietary, they've even released designs | CC-BY that you can use to make your own: | https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards | up6w6 wrote: | They are actually open-source[1] so you can print your own case | in a 3d printer and put the circuit you want inside. About the | USB-C limitation, I initially thought it was a limitation too | but Im not sure after learning that you can use them as | thunderbolt ports. Anyway, I think the notebook seems to be | thin enough and the possibilities of dongle are exciting[2] - | like magsafe chargers[3] (which seems to have some patent | problems). | | [1] https://community.frame.work/c/expansion-cards/developer- | pro... | | [2] https://community.frame.work/t/what-new-expansion-card- | types... | | [3] https://community.frame.work/t/youtuber-elevated-systems- | mak... | frederikvs wrote: | I think I read somewhere that they were planning to open up the | specs of those modular ports. That may alleviate some of the | points you bring up. (Can't find the source right now though.) | | In what way do they limit the USB-C they pass through? | OJFord wrote: | > In what way do they limit the USB-C they pass through? | | GP means that if you use one other than the USB-C pass- | through module, it's (trivially) a proper subset of the USB-C | functionality that you started out with. | | I don't really see the issue: the alternative is that you do | that in a dongle more external to the laptop anyway? | zerocrates wrote: | What do they limit? You mean when you're using one of the non- | usb-c ones that that's limiting you? | technofiend wrote: | Only a guess but they also act as a sacrificial device in place | of the motherboard's USB-C connector. I've read here on HN that | Macbook USB-C adapters regularly fail. | LeonenTheDK wrote: | Louis Rossmann recently reviewed the Framework laptop and | basically said the exact same thing, about them taking a lot | of the stress off the soldered USB-C portion and transferring | it to the chassis instead. | rhn_mk1 wrote: | If a product manager is listening: you have my interest. I'll be | excited when mouse buttons become available. It'll make my | shortlist when it has Coreboot, and if Libreboot is on, I'll be | obliged to give you my money. | tofuahdude wrote: | After hearing all the positive reviews, I finally went and spec'd | one out. The bang for the buck is pretty amazing! | | Hmm. Framework vs M1 16" (if they ever get released). | mikenew wrote: | Been extremely happy with mine the past couple months. The little | modular port attachments seemed like a novelty at first, but now | it feels absurd that you'd buy a laptop with a bunch of | "hardcoded" ports that you can't ever change. | | The only real Linux related quirk I've run into so far is that | you have to disable panel self refresh (it's on by default and | causes stuttering). Other than that tiny thing I pretty much just | installed my stuff and started using it. | | One little anecdote: I got a card in the mail from Framework | saying that there was a problem with the cable for the touchpad, | and it had instructions on how to fix it. Contrast that to my | experience with Apple where they would delete forum threads for | laptop problems and spend years denying issues until legal action | forced them to acknowledge it. | | Anyway, I'm a fan. I'm really looking forward to when the | marketplace opens up with some new parts. I really want my blank | keyboard. I'm hoping 2021 will be the year I can own a laptop | without a god damn windows logo emblazoned on the keys. | ericpauley wrote: | Maybe I need some convincing here. How is the "modular port" | concept any different than a universal port with dongles (i.e., | how Macs have been since 2016). To me the fact that the port | attachments are recessed is little more than a gimmick. | Especially as all of my devices have transitioned to USB-C | anyway, dongles/"modular ports" feel more like a stopgap | measure than one requiring a permanent form factor change. | fossuser wrote: | Yeah - I think Apple's approach is the right tradeoff, though | I admit I think it's cool from a nerd that likes gadgets | perspective. | | If there's enough of a market for that that they can survive | that's cool, but I think there's a reason it's not the | default design (that isn't some cynical one about planned | obsolescence). | paxys wrote: | The modular port _is_ a universal port with dongles. Except | that (1) it doesn 't take extra space outside of your | computer, (2) it is cheaper than mainstream dongles (Apple | sells USB-C to HDMI for $70 while the Framework HDMI | expansion is $20), and (3) it is fully open source and you | can actually print/sell your own. | nomel wrote: | > Apple sells USB-C to HDMI for $70 | | Luckily, USB-C means you don't have to buy any accessory | from Apple, and have the world of low cost peripherals at | your disposal, like the $13 version on Amazon [1]. | | 1. https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.htm | l/re... | BiteCode_dev wrote: | Quite the opposite, it means you can start with plenty of | usbA port, and when you don't need them anymore, switch them | to usbc, without changing your laptop. | | It means when one port wears of, fixing it is easy, cheap, | and doesn't immobilize your machine. | | It means you can change your port to fit an hdmi or ethernet | as needed, without having the stuff coming out your laptop, | all ugly and taking space on the desk. | matt_heimer wrote: | The modular ports are my least favorite part as well. The | fact that you have to buy one USB type c module just to be | able to easily plug in your charger is crazy. Another just to | have reachable USB port. Maybe 1 or 2 modular spots would be | nice, but put in some standard type c ports and monitor | connectors without having to pay an upcharge or include at | least 2 type c modules free. | CameronNemo wrote: | Is the "upcharge" actually significant for the USB C ports? | It is like an extra $20 on a $1k computer. | etbusch wrote: | Two things: | | They are replaceable when the external ports (USB-C or | otherwise) wear out without the need for soldering or | internal board replacement. | | The design of the modules is open source, meaning that anyone | can design a module that fits their needs. | olah_1 wrote: | how does a port "wear out"? i've never heard of that | scohesc wrote: | This was something that was more prominent during the | Micro-USB era. The little metal "tabs" on the male end of | microUSB connectors would start to wear out after a | thousand+ plug/unplugs resulting in a loose connection | that wasn't reliable. | | With USB-C, the connector was designed consideration of a | bunch of factors, one of which I would assume is lifespan | of the end connectors - USB-c has thicker, more resilient | plastic hooks built into the inside of the male plug and | stronger mating latches in the female end of the | connector. | | https://www.quora.com/How-do-USB-cables-particularly-USB- | C-s... | magicalhippo wrote: | Connectors are rated for a given number of | connect/disconnect cycles. For USB-A it's a minimum of | 1500[1]. | | If your laptop has a cheap connector which isn't rated | for more, and you do two cycles a day (start/end of day, | start/end lunch), then you'll go through the rated number | of cycles in less than two years. | | Doesn't mean the connector will fail right away but it | might start to act up. Connectors are not forever. | | [1]: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Durability | AlfeG wrote: | It when You need to adjust cable multiple times until | connection happen, and then work very careful to not move | anything. Ports sometimes are very fragile. My old laptop | has only 2 of 4 USB ports working. | lr1970 wrote: | > How is the "modular port" concept any different than a | universal port with dongles ... | | At least the "modular port" adapters are not dangling from | the side of a laptop as the dongles do. Dongles totally ruin | the esthetics of otherwise slick MacBook for me. | xur17 wrote: | The main advantage is that the dongles are all built into | your laptop. With dongles I have a pile of them in my bag | (that takes up more room), I have to remember to carry them | around with me if I'm in a conference room, etc. | Osiris wrote: | My understanding is that all the module ports ARE USB-C. So | the dongles are just made to fit inside the laptop instead of | outside. | strix_varius wrote: | I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of | dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky | plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardware interfaces. | | So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically | "recessed dongles"). | | I couldn't lose them / forget them. They wouldn't take up | space in my bag while I'm traveling. I could "set and forget" | them to perfectly match whatever desktop / docking setup I'm | using. In five years when my wireless VR system uses some as- | yet-unknown hardware interface, I can swap a single component | out to support it. Seems like brilliant design to me. | EduardoBautista wrote: | I don't understand how this meme about "dongles" still | exists. You know how I avoided using dongles? I just used | USB-C cables. | | And for the very few things that don't have a detachable | cable, I use a micro USB-C adapter. | | It's been several years since the release of the USB-C only | MacBook Pros, this shouldn't be an issue if you put in a | minimal amount of effort. | BiteCode_dev wrote: | HN bubble at work, right here. | | Some of my clients still have projectors with... vga | ports. | | Then you need ethernet and hdmi of course, regularly in | the corporate world or at your friends house. | | So yeah, dongle it is. USB-C dongle for sure, but still | dongle. | dnautics wrote: | ethernet and serial dongles are a requirement for | emergency maintenance inside of datacenters. But of | course not many people on hn spend time in datacenters | anymare... | bumbada wrote: | I carry a battery powered projector for this reason for | talking with customers, providers or partners. I use | standard airport suitcases for that. | | It just makes no sense spending lots of time trying to | adapt to obsolete infrastructure for every person you | visit. If necessary I even have a blackboard and color | chalks in my car and get away with them. | | When I go to the meeting room, if I don't need to use my | projector, great, but I will never use VGA, too much | hassle. | BiteCode_dev wrote: | Except: | | - some conf room don't have a projector, but flat | screens, a smart white boards or some remote conf setup | that needs you to plug in, and/or no walls that fits the | bill for projection | | - some conf rooms don't have a place to put for your | projector and get a good picture. Their is own the | ceiling. | | - unless you buy a very good one, some conf rooms won't | have the light for your projector to be readable | | - it addresses only the projector problem, not ethernet, | sd card, usb A, etc | | - a good projector is way more expensive that a few | dongles, are easier to break, harder to replace if | lost/broken or if you forget it at home | | Not to say it's a bad idea to _also_ have a projector. | White_Wolf wrote: | For this exact reason I carry a projector(with a | mira/chromecast dongle in my car whenever I have to train | engineers at our partners offices). | TheOtherHobbes wrote: | And if you're speaking at a conference and have to use | whatever is available? | lrae wrote: | Then you'll take a dongle with you to that conference? | Are you telling me you would always waste one of the 4? | framework ports for Display Ouput X that you only use | once a year? | White_Wolf wrote: | I always carry it with me but usually they have some sort | of screen casting tech around already. I do make it clear | from the planning stages that they need to provide either | one of 3 video inputs to their selected system | (HDMI/DP/Screen casting) or they need to provide the | computer that I can use to remote into my 13"(this is | what they usually choose if they have older screens or | projectors). | spockz wrote: | All the conferences I've been to had dongles readily | available. Most used hdmi. Once I had hastily arranged | breakout room that had VGA for the Beamer. I think this | is a non-issue? | lrae wrote: | HN bubble at work, right here. | | Framework does not even offer a VGA module, do they? | buildbot wrote: | But it would be easy to make one yourself! Though fitting | the port itself may be a challenge... | BiteCode_dev wrote: | Yet. They are just getting started. Plus their modules | have an open design. | pavon wrote: | I'm curious as to how those work out. The modules are too | short to fit a VGA, serial, or ethernet port and be flush | with the laptop, but I think you could make one that | extends further out and above, and would still have some | benefits over a dongle. | deeblering4 wrote: | HN bubble at work, right here. | | Some of my clients still have vt220 terminals with... | serial ports. | | Then you need a 9600 baud modem and rj11 wire of course, | regularly in the corporate world or at your friends | house. | | So yeah, dongle it is. USB 1.1 dongle for sure, but still | dongle. | genewitch wrote: | I too also throw away perfectly good gear because of a | decision apple made! | EduardoBautista wrote: | There are cables for USB-C to VGA and HDMI, no dongle | required. | | Ethernet, OK, I will give you that. | Ekaros wrote: | USB-C to VGA? How is that not a dongle? Those protocols | are in no way compatible... | z3t4 wrote: | Theoretically you could emulate the signal with | software/drivers given that USB-C has 24 pins. But | there's actually display standards/signals built into | USB-C so you "just have to" convert the digital signal to | analog for VGA, but then it's no longer a stupid cable | and more like a dongle. | EduardoBautista wrote: | https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-MacBook-Supports- | Resolutions... | | I don't understand how one USB-C to VGA cable is more | inconvenient? | morganvachon wrote: | I would argue that a USB-C to VGA or HDMI cable is just a | longer dongle. What if you take your USB-C-only laptop to | a remote office to do a presentation, but your six foot | USB-C to HDMI cable isn't long enough to reach the port | because the projector is mounted in the ceiling and has a | standard HDMI cable routed to the lectern? I'd much | rather have the Framework with a HDMI port on the device | than struggle with a common situation like that. | jsjohnst wrote: | > What if you take your USB-C-only laptop to a remote | office to do a presentation, but your six foot USB-C to | HDMI cable isn't long enough to reach the port because | the projector is mounted in the ceiling and has a | standard HDMI cable routed to the lectern? | | I personally really like the idea of what Framework is | doing and wish more laptops followed suit, but that is a | trivially solved problem you identified: | | https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Connector-Extender- | Chromecast-... | morganvachon wrote: | Of course it's trivially solved...with a dongle for your | dongle! Or you could avoid dongle-ception by using a | modular laptop like the Framework, or even a standard | laptop with an HDMI port; even current-gen models from | Dell, Lenovo, and HP still have it as an option | especially on business-oriented machines. It all comes | down to what your everyday requirements and tolerances | allow for. | | But again, the "dongle" argument is moot and not really a | reason to either consider or avoid the Framework, for me | at least. It's more about the device being open and | repairable, and arguments about dongles are just attempts | to justify one's current USB-C only device. | jsjohnst wrote: | > It all comes down to what your everyday requirements | and tolerances allow for | | Agree completely. For me, Apple's USB-C only ports isn't | an issue as everything I use plugs in via one or two TB3 | cables (depending on personal vs work laptop) and daisy | chains from the monitor or a TB3 dock so no dongles | needed at all, but I still appreciate the design choice | Framework made and think it's a good strategy. | [deleted] | BiteCode_dev wrote: | I don't see how putting a cable in my backpack is going | to be better than a dongle, and I'm certainly not going | to a client for the first time then complain they don't | have the right cable. | | Not to mention the dongle supports several ports. | | But you know what is better than either ? | | The framework laptop solution of letting me configure the | port I want before going to my client. | sequoia wrote: | In 2019 my new employer sent me a new MacBook pro. I | couldn't connect it to my home office monitors which had | vga and dvi ports, so I asked for dongles. | | Rather than try to sort out the cable confusion, they | simply shipped me _brand new_ monitors (which I wasn't | asking for). I also needed dongles to attach my keyboard | and mouse, dongles for same were provided by IT. | | My point: Dongles are still an issue, not everyone throws | out their displays/keyboard/mouse every time apple comes | out with some new version. My 2010 dell displays still | work just fine, and it would be great if I could plug | them straight into my laptop. | turtlebits wrote: | While I'm not a big fan of dongles, they make them slim | enough to just leave them attached to the device. I've | had one attached to my mouse for 2 years now and it | doesn't add much bulk. My Samsung phone came with one so | small that you can't even tell is there (other than the | extra width for the USB-A part). | andrepd wrote: | Why on earth would you remove ports for "thinness" just | to have a cable flopping around? | jazzyjackson wrote: | I have yet to see a USB-C thumb drive in the wild. | somehnguy wrote: | I have one, it's USBC on one end & regular USB on the | other, just flips around in the protective sheath to | whatever one you need. It's also super fast, though I've | never spent much for high end thumb drives to compare to. | | I got it at Target. Love how easy it makes going between | my USBC only MBP and other random computers. | nottorp wrote: | I got a Kingston MicroDuo. Both USB-C and USB-A _and_ it | 's small enough that i keep it in my wallet with the | coins. | cylinder714 wrote: | Best Buy has Sandisk units. | foxpurple wrote: | I don't see a problem with them. The majority of users | never need one and even when I use them I usually use them | infrequently. I often leave them on the ends of cables. My | display port cable has a usb c dongle left on it so it's | like it's natively usb C anyway. | | Sure, if you do some weird stuff or have an extreme use | case, I can see why you would want more built in ports, but | for the majority of users, they only plug in the charging | cable and maybe video out. | arecurrence wrote: | I don't understand the logic. When the original usb-c MBP | came out I spent $30 on Monoprice for usb-c to whatever | cables and never looked back. I even still have many of | those cables 3 laptops later. | | People would actually comment about dongle gate in Meetups | and I'd show them my usb-c to micro-usb cable... ...oh the | look of shock in their eyes... "You mean... you never | bought a dongle?". The concept of a cable with usb-c at one | end and anything else at the other was completely foreign. | obedm wrote: | Well... This is an idea I never had lol. | mjsweet wrote: | I concur! I have about 3-4 different usb-c to what ever | cables and one usb-c to female A port for thumb drives. | My thinking has always been that having all usb-c | "future-proofs" for future configurations... maybe I will | have two HDMI external monitors in the future, rather | than display port and DVI? Easy, just get two usb-c to | HDMI cables when that scenario arises. With cables it | allows for so many different configurations rather than | proprietary modular adaptors that any given company might | give up on, decide to sunset older versions for new ones | with more features. After living what you just described | for the last few years I can't for the life of me fathom | how this modular approach will gain mass appeal. USB-C | with cables seems far more flexible to me. | mod wrote: | Similarly, I bought some adapters that I carry around. I | travel between a couple of locations, and I bring just | one charging wall plug, and one 10-foot USB-C cable. | | I have adapters that convert the usb-c to micro and | lightning, to also charge my airpods, flashlight, etc. | Each adapter is about 3/4" (2cm), female USB-C end, and | male end of lightning/micro. I've glued them together so | that it's just one little thing to take. | | I hated carrying around 3+ cables, so this has been a | welcome change. | | It's true that I can only charge one thing at a time, but | that's not an issue for me except in rare circumstances. | cptskippy wrote: | Your unwillingness to understand or empathize is a form | of dishonesty. Just because you personally never needed a | dongle doesn't mean such situations don't exist or that | they are somehow boundary conditions. | enobrev wrote: | I did the same. I don't love using them, but it's better | than keeping different cables around. | thereddaikon wrote: | what if I......want more than one usb port? | lotsofpulp wrote: | I have never used these, but these came up in my | searches: | | https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderbolt-hub | | https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-4-element-hub/ | secabeen wrote: | I have this one, it's inexpensive, and works well: | https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Upgraded-Delivery- | Pixelbook-A83... | teawrecks wrote: | But toting around a dongle is exactly the problem we're | trying to solve. | lotsofpulp wrote: | Oh, I was just answering how to add ports to a laptop | with only one port. | pmontra wrote: | Example: my external USB mic (much better than the | internal one) and my USB disk for daily local backups, | connected to two different ports this morning (and many | other days.) | TYPE_FASTER wrote: | I bought one of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/ | B07QXMNF1X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... | | One USB-C connection powers my laptop, connects to my | monitor, as well as my wireless mouse and keyboard. | andrepd wrote: | That's a lot of extra steps to just having the damn | ports. | foxpurple wrote: | I'd argue it's less steps than preordering the framework | laptop, pulling it apart and swapping modules around. | | The average person can walk in to the apple store and | walk out with a MacBook and usb c hub just fine. | ewzimm wrote: | I love the modular laptop concept, but not for ports. For | those who don't want them hanging, these are perfectly | color matched, made of the same kind of aluminum as the | Air, and sit flush. I prefer it to having extra bulk to | the base laptop. | | https://www.amazon.com/Purgo-Adapter-MacBook-Thunderbolt- | Rea... | [deleted] | biztos wrote: | The crazy thing here is that it's not so hard to hit the | standard set of "pro" ports -- | | USB-C x 4 (new standard blabla) | | USB-A x 2 | | SD x 1 | | HDMI x 1 | | Phone/Mic | | I applaud the modular approach but Apple's donglevision was | the pure distillation of user-hostility between the Bean- | Counter in Chief and the SVP, Thin Stuff. | | And all the industrial sheep who followed them. May we all | recover... | wonnage wrote: | Apple did one good thing, which is make every USB-C port | have the same capabilities (charging, thunderbolt). | Windows laptops, especially once you get down into the | budget section, are absolutely atrocious at this, you | have to read little lightning symbols and can only charge | from a special port... | chaostheory wrote: | I thought they didn't do that? Has this changed for | MacBooks recently? | tristor wrote: | It's always been that way on Macbooks. It's also | simplified with USB 4, which means the newest Macbooks | just support everything under Thunderbolt / USB 4 on | every port. Older Macbooks may have had some Display Port | shenanigans because of differences between DP 1.2 and DP | 1.4 and whether it was over Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1, but | all modes were basically supported. | | Any port on any Macbook with USB-C can be used as the | charging port, which is a big deal all on its own | compared to most non-Macbook laptops that use USB-C | charging. | chaostheory wrote: | You're right. I guess I was confused by the differences | before re-reading it again | | https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/587669/Are+all+USB+C+ | por... | moonchrome wrote: | No ethernet ? WiFi is nice and all but when I get a | docker-compose project that decides to pull down the | internet I really love the fact that I'm on a gigabit | network. | chrisseaton wrote: | This is where it goes wrong. Everyone thinks their | particular favourite port is a 'pro' essential, and we | end up with Homer-cars with a thousand ports. Just use | USB-C. Almost everything can go through USB-C. | TeMPOraL wrote: | But not everything can go through the USB-C cable you | have on hand. | | That's the annoying bit with USB-C. We may have (almost) | standardized on a single plug/socket shape, but we didn't | escape the essential complexity - the fact that one type | of connection cannot handle all the use cases we'd like | it to. We just pushed that complexity into cables. | Instead of having to deal with separate data, network and | graphics ports, users now have to deal with potentially | separate data, network, graphics and charging cables. I'm | not convinced this is an improvement, because USB-C | cables are a bottom-feeder market that will not hesitate | to outright scam the buyer. | | At this point I'm not sure it's an improvement. I feel | like the optimum point would be a small amount of | standards targeting mutually incompatible applications. | That, or forcing some specification requirements on | USB-C, and standardize some capability labels. | hfjrkekdkfj wrote: | I do not want all my USB-C cables to be able to handle | 90W. That would make them very thick and expensive. | | I do not want all my USB-C cables to support the maximum | 40 GBps speed (or whatever it is). That would require | them to have all the 19 wires and shielding and all and | again, would make them expensive and short. | | And just imagine how much a 90W maximum speed 3 meter | cable would cost... | | I prefer having one power cable, one fast cable and then | a bunch of disposable cables for general use cases. | infogulch wrote: | I hope that this is what USB4 will bring, since iiuc, | USB4 is basically the IF's name for Thunderbolt-4-capable | USB-C. This was enabled by Intel contributing the TB4 | spec to the committee, in a shockingly benevolent move | that I guess may have been the greatest internal | political feat Intel staff pulled of in the last decade. | romwell wrote: | >and we end up with Homer-cars with a thousand ports. | | And what exactly is wrong with that? | | Ever seen musician's gear? | | Even the cheapest, smallest mixer boards support XLR, | RCA, 1/4", and often USB for audio I/O -- and have many | of them. | | Because yes, everyone has something essential to their | flow, and number of configurations grows exponentially. | TeMPOraL wrote: | > _And what exactly is wrong with that?_ | | Honestly? Presentation. That's why I consider it a dumb | argument in general. People mention "Homer's car" or | equivalent memes from works of fiction as some kind of | ridiculous contraptions, but don't bat an eye when a show | like Star Trek does the same. The big difference, IMO, is | that Homer's car is delivered to you up front, a solution | looking for problem(s). Star Trek's tricorder or | roundabout or a starship only happen to show a different | one-off feature every episode - so the realization that | the equipment is deeply multipurpose, and has all those | features already present, kind of flies past people | who're not into this sort of thing. | chrisseaton wrote: | The issue for me is how silly it is to hard-code these | arbitrary and often single-purpose connectors in the | laptop. | | A laptop should be a general computing device. So why | hard-code something as weirdly specific as an SD card | reader into it? Give it the functionality to have any IO | device attached (USB-C) instead. | romwell wrote: | > Give it the functionality to have any IO device | attached (USB-C) instead. | | Because a laptop is a _portable_ device, and carrying | something with dongles dangling from it is something that | nobody wants to do. | ioseph wrote: | I'm not sure a mixer is the best comparison here since | its sole purpose is to combine inputs. | romwell wrote: | Yeah, and what's the point of having I/O ports on a | computer? | chrisseaton wrote: | > Ever seen musician's gear? | | I guess some of those are analogue? I guess you can't | squeeze those all through the same physical form factor | connector. You can with digital, so let's reduce the | clutter and do it! | laurent92 wrote: | Yes, exactly, let's suggest musicians to use USB-C, and | every third cable won't work, and they will be able to | make a concert but with no guitar, exactly like the | devices in front of us when we try to work. | | The only insurance against "the USB-C downtime" is a | subscription to Amazon Prime 24hrs delivery and another | $68 (no kidding) Apple cable. | chrisseaton wrote: | > Yes, exactly, let's suggest musicians to use USB-C | | Not sure what you mean - I said didn't really apply to | analogue. | romwell wrote: | Except for USB, they are all analogue, and some are | mutually interchangeable. | | 3.5mm TRS, dual 3.5mm TS, dual RCA, 1/4" TRS, dual 1/4" | TS, XLR cables transfer the same kind of signal, and you | can easily convert between the connector with dongles. | | Mixers have _all_ of these _so that you wouldn 't have | to_. | | The utility is _not thinking about where the f***ing | dongle is_ when you just want to plug something in. | whywhywhywhy wrote: | Apart from displays which are objectively garbage though | USB-C | moonchrome wrote: | There's thunderbolt, USB 3, USB 4. External adapters of | varying quality and capabilities are often inferior to | even budget integrated stuff. | | For example getting a 4k 60FPS HDMI dongle was going to | cost me >100$, and the cheap ones I had overheated. | Meanwhile a budget laptop with HDMI and integrate | graphics works fine. Getting a dock with gigabit | ethernet, high res HDMI, decent SD reader and a fast hub | was >200$ last time I checked - and not that portable | either. | eertami wrote: | My newest laptop gets a fairly consistent 700-800Mbps on | WiFi. | | Don't get me wrong I still prefer ethernet to avoid | packet loss and reduce latency but download throughput | isn't a problem I notice on WiFi anymore (since I'm also | only on a 1Gbit/s line) | pantalaimon wrote: | Your laptop is not magic, it will only get those speeds | with the right access point and if you are close enough | to it. | | If you carry your laptop someplace else it might not find | itself in such ideal conditions. | s0rce wrote: | I think the proliferation of usb-c has finally solved the | universal port issue, you can just buy a 3rd party dongle | with HDMI/displayport, usb-c (with pass through charging), | sd-card, usb, etc. and it works great. Meets my needs pretty | well. | whywhywhywhy wrote: | Have you tried dongles? They barely work. | | I beg for an age where monitors and drives plugged into | Macbooks worked again without flickering and random | disconnects you get with dongles. | rhacker wrote: | Absolutely agree. If I ever had to go back to a "docking | station" which I'm sure many on here have used in the past | I'd be ripping out my hair. | | A single multi-port dongle with Hdmi, extension USB-C and | USB-A makes it so that I connect 1 thing to my laptop at my | desk. And you don't have to press the whole laptop on some | weird device that can scrape that back of your laptop. | | If more people had experienced docking stations of 10 years | ago they would also be excited for these dongles. | earthscienceman wrote: | I'll give a reply not seen here yet. I haven't bought the | framework laptop (yet) but I can see the module appeal. | There's all sorts of hacker-ish ideas that I could imagine | stuffing in there and the fact that I don't need a dongle | means they're always attached and ready to be thrown in a | bag. My first idea: | | Framework offers a 1Tb storage module for their ports! I | backup my root OS via ZFS snapshot to USB every so often now. | How great would it be to have a storage port that's all the | recent snapshots of your important datasets. And, the | possibilities are endless. The fact that they don't change | the form factor of the laptop and that they're always | attached is actually a big deal. | charwalker wrote: | The modularity means you can change your workflow or | peripherals without needing to find a dock or dongles long | term. You can travel with the HDMI dongle in for putting a | movie on a hotel TV or use with an external monitor | somewhere. Maybe you need that SD card reader for most of | your photo work but only on weekends or trips when you go | process images immediately or need to offload them from the | SD card. | | Regardless, the port can be what you need it to be or just a | useful USB-C, you aren't tied to whatever ports the OEM | thinks you'll need forever even though it may only be valued | by a small number of consumers. | | That small number is still enough to drive sales for | FrameWork. I'm interested if I need a better laptop and I sit | at a desk with desktop in use almost all the time. This | appeals to those that interested in more control over their | device in configuration, expansion or modifications, and the | various ports and IO options. I can't say I'd buy many of the | USB modules (rarely would use most anyway) but the mentality | is there and I so far have trust in the product. It's not | meant to appeal to GAMERS or Enterprise execs, just those | that want more control over their devices. | mikenew wrote: | I wouldn't think of them as recessed dongles. After | installing them I haven't changed them out at all so far. | It's more that you can configure things how you want. If you | wanted 4 usb-c ports and that's all; just do that. | | I would love it if all my devices had transition to usb-c, | but they haven't. I still occasionally need usb-a and | sometimes I need an hdmi out. So... that's what I have. And | if I stop needing usb-a I'll get rid of it and put in another | usb-c. You could even do a single usb-c port and then 3 | storage attachments if you wanted. Nobody is ever going to | sell a laptop like that, but for someone who really needs | storage and doesn't care about connectivity that might be | perfect. | | If you're okay with dongles then you're probably fine. I'm | not. They clutter up the workspace, occupy permanent space in | my bag which is annoying, and often enough aren't around when | I actually need them. | bo1024 wrote: | My devices aren't USB-C (e.g. headset, tablet) and I use HDMI | cables a lot. So it's great for me. Turns out thanks to the | modular port design it's also great for you! | kzrdude wrote: | Their modular ports use a lot of space, they could have much | more ports built in, unfortunately. | pavon wrote: | Yeah, being limited to only 4 ports is a complete non-starter | for me especially when you are required to use one of them to | charge the laptop. So practically everybody is going to end | up filling one of those modular ports with a USB-C module, | when they could have easily fit two dedicated USB-C ports in | the same space, with no practical loss in expandability. | teawrecks wrote: | No one wants _all_ the different ports though, they usually | just want the _correct_ ports. If you 're plugging more than | 4 things into your laptop at once you should be using a dock. | kzrdude wrote: | Maybe a great laptop _would_ have 4 usb-c, hdmi and sd card | reader? We can be ambitious :) | yepguy wrote: | If Framework opens this up for other companies to make | modules, you might also see something like a USB port | module with an integrated Logitech wireless mouse receiver. | So then your mouse isn't even taking up a port. | dhosek wrote: | My first laptop bought way back in 1993, had a scheme where | either or both of the two(!) removable batteries could be | replaced with a plug-in module. I had one that gave me a SCSI | port and another that gave me a 2400 baud(!) modem. | | It was better in theory than practice. You couldn't hot-swap | modules (because this was 1993, after all) and driver support | was iffy. I sold that laptop a few years later and didn't own | another laptop until I bought my first PowerBook in 2002. I've | kept dongles in my bag from time to time for connecting to | external monitors, but most of the time I never really bothered | with it. | r00fus wrote: | I did like my late-90s Dell Latitude where I could replace a | CDROM module bay with a 2nd hard drive or battery. It was | even hot-swap if I recall correctly. | | That said, these days I know exactly what I want in a laptop | and most mid-spec+ laptops have an abundance of what 90% of | users need. | jbellis wrote: | How is the state of linux power saving (i.e., mobile battery | life) in 2021? Last time I checked you could expect to get | almost 2x the battery life on equivalent hardware with Windows | or Mac OS. | TobTobXX wrote: | Can't comment on mobile, but I've set my laptop to sleep | after 10min of inactivity and 3min after lid close and it | lasts the whole day (4.1Ah). I'm not using it for 8h | straight, but rather a combined 3h or sth probably but with | this aggressive sleep settings it easily stretches some 8h | and I don't feel afraid of it just going out at the end of | the day. | abdullahkhalids wrote: | When I bought my T440s in 2013 (8 years ago now), I could | push it to 18 hours with wifi off. And could get 10 hours | plus with wifi. I seriously doubt Windows or Mac OS would | have gotten much more juice out of it. | mtreis86 wrote: | How does the keyboard compare to older Lenovos, specifically the | x220? | filleokus wrote: | This isn't a laptop for me, I want different trade offs. But I'm | really excited to see it enter the space, and hopefully they will | become a viable market contender. | | That might both satisfy the demand often expressed, by people | like us, for more upgradability/repair ability and make other | manufacturers steal some of their best ideas. | bogwog wrote: | What kind of trade offs? The only thing I can think of is that | you want extreme performance, like those "VR-ready" gaming | laptops. | philote wrote: | The author spent some time explaining the need to have a reliable | laptop and spending $150 for 24-hour service and having two | Powerbooks at once. But there was no mention of anything about | reliability and repairs (well, replacement parts) for the | Framework. I'm curious if he plans to keep a second Framework | laptop in case parts are sold out, take too long to ship, etc. | pshirshov wrote: | AMD please? What about Coreboot? Nothing? Ehm... | mastazi wrote: | I would like to purchase an i5 with 16GB RAM and 1TB storage, am | I missing something? | | https://frame.work/products/laptop/configuration/edit | leipert wrote: | Not preconfigured, but the DIY page allows that configuration. | You can even choose the WiFi card: | | https://frame.work/laptop-diy-edition | MMS21 wrote: | >That tool - a small screwdriver - is also sufficient to upgrade | the CPU | | CPU isn't up-gradable without switching out the entire mainboard, | which I'm fine with, once I get an AMD version that is :) | [deleted] | flatiron wrote: | ive seen a lot of requests for an AMD version but i always see | people complain about AMD's linux support. Do you plan on | running windows? If you are planning on Linux is the support | really as bad as people complain. I say that because intel's | linux support seems to me as top notch. ive never really had | driver issues that i can think of | samtheDamned wrote: | > i always see people complain about AMD's linux support | | I've always heard the opposite, that AMD's linux support is | amazing and that it's windows drivers are lacking. Especially | in the GPU department where it struggles with minecraft. | squeaky-clean wrote: | AMD CPUs and Linux have always been fine for me. The GPUs on | the other hand... | flatiron wrote: | Since it's a laptop then I could see that being an issue | though. Intels embedded GPU I guess are slow and clunky but | work super well in Linux in my experience. | jklinger410 wrote: | >but i always see people complain about AMD's linux support | | No, you don't. You see people complaining about NVIDIA's | linux support. | flatiron wrote: | Oh I'm glad I don't. You know what I dreamt it all up. | Thanks for clearing that up. But honestly just subscribing | to the Linux subreddit I see tons of amd gpu issues and | never hear a peep out of Intel. But yes nvidia does win the | prize for worst. | MMS21 wrote: | That's weird. I always see people claiming AMD is superior | for Linux due to their opensource drivers (intel and nvidia | are not). | | btw certain distro devs were provided with Framework laptops | a while back | | https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop | foxfluff wrote: | Intel does write open source drivers for Linux. In my | experience they are more reliable than AMD's. | MMS21 wrote: | I could only find open source drivers for intel graphics | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open- | source_graphics_... | | https://01.org/linuxgraphics | Unklejoe wrote: | All of Intel's Ethernet/WiFi adapters have open source | drivers on Linux too. | adamdusty wrote: | I dont know about laptops but I've been running Ubuntu on a | ryzen 1600 since the couch came out and haven't had any | issues. | fabianhjr wrote: | Hey, AMD (Zen2 3800X) and Linux (NixOS - 5.14.6) user here; | other than a weird bug once on temperature reading I haven't | had a single issue between Linux and AMD. | burundi_coffee wrote: | The CPU is not socketed/replacable because _intel_ simply does | not sell socketed laptop CPUs. If there was a socketed | alternative, I 'm sure it would be in the framework. | judge2020 wrote: | Alienware had a socketed CPU and it didn't pan out: https://w | ww.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2020/5/13/21256845/a... | ip26 wrote: | Sockets add measurable height, weight, & power. That part, at | least, isn't just a conspiracy. | OJFord wrote: | What is the distinction between 'laptop CPU' and 'desktop | CPU' if not BGA (or whatever it is) vs. socketed packaging | though, really? Power consumption? | | Wouldn't it be nice if there just 'CPUs', and you could pick | whatever was appropriate for your desktop or laptop. Sure | some would maybe only make sense in one package, but there | must be some considerable overlap. I use my desktop for work | because it has upgradeable RAM and I needed to do that, not | because it has a beefier CPU than is available in a laptop. | lom wrote: | > replace the CPU | | I believe you cannot replace/upgrade the CPU. At least that's | what I remember reading. | | You'll have to buy a new one, _but_ you can always use the old | ram, wifi chip (if it's still supported) and SSD. | heleninboodler wrote: | Random feedback to framework on the configurator: it would be | much nicer if all the options were just visible on one screen. | Getting to the expansion slots page and not being able to | remember how much base storage is in the configuration I chose | means I have to go back two pages (and the page-loads are quite | slow; hopefully that means you're doing great business?). Also, | I'm sure limiting SKUs is a business decision, but it would be | really nice to decouple CPU and RAM so I could choose an i5 with | 32gb, for example. | causi wrote: | I'm really hoping they come out with an option for a touchpad | with separate mouse buttons. I've always found clickpads | unusable. | pmlnr wrote: | There's also the MNT Reform in cooking: | https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform | | Regarding ports on the Framework: is there really no ethernet | option? And no full side SD card, just micro? | ThinkBeat wrote: | I would love to get one. The main thing that stops me is that | this is only a clever idea as long as Framework is viable as a | business. | | All the components here are proprietary to Framework (?) | | If they should go out of business, which often happens with these | efforts, then you have no way to source parts and you are stuck. | | There really is not much customization they offer, at least not | now. the expansion bays seem to be the major components now. | | Selectable when you buy the machine: CPU (non replaceable?) , | WIFI, Storage, memory, | | power adapter yes/no, operating system yes / no | | Not configurable: (yet?) Screen, Camera, Fingerprint reader, | battery. Hardware switch for camera, NA. | | A slight look back at laptops: | | Old style laptops / enterprise laptops: | ---------------------------------------- Battery can be swapped | by sliding a open a plastic lock. Swap batteries in seconds. | | Different sized batteries were available, some taking up more | space giving your laptop a "bump". | | RAM was beneath a small hatch easily accessible from the bottom | of the unit by removing two screws and direct access. | | Often the hard drive was accessible easily as well | | Two bays with no tool swappable, cd, extra storage/2nd hard | drive, and some more exotic things. | | Then we had PCMCIA Card a long time ago. Most of my laptops had | two bays. No tool swappable. Wide selection. | | Farmework ------------- | | Switching out the battery is far too complicated: | https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85... | | >Be extremely careful when sliding the Battery connector out, >as | it is very easy to accidently bend the pins. >Make sure to slide | straight down, and avoid letting the >connector twist or bend. | | You should not have to perform surgery on the box switch the | battery. | | It should not involve screws at all. | | With the placement of the battery in Framework,, it is hard to | see how they can upgrade it based on size limits. Hopefully, they | will offer an extension battery of some sort . | | Where is the space for the dvd/cdrom? (Some still use it. I love | it for livecd, where the entire OS and file system is Read only. | Every time you boot its clean. | | 4 user selectable expansions cards are unique and cool as long as | they are available, and someone makes a wider assortment of them | | It is really cool that you can got at the guts and replace things | and it is great that this is available. I would just want to do a | lot of it a lot easier. | | Presumably, it become a h | NotPractical wrote: | The baseline, preassembled model starts at $1000. Windows 10 | Home, quad-core i5, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB storage, a nice 2256x1504 | display, thin and light (1.3kg, 11.7" x 9" x 0.6"). Compare that | to your other thin and light options at this pricepoint. | | XPS 13, $1020 | | * i5 | | * 8 GB RAM | | * 256 GB storage | | * 1920 x 1200 display | | * 1.2 kg, 11.6" x 7.8" x 0.6" | | MacBook Pro: $1300 | | * M1 | | * 8 GB RAM | | * 256 GB storage | | * 2560 x 1600 display | | * 1.4kg, 12" x 8.7" x 0.6" | | It's almost a no-brainer, _even without considering the | repairability_ , unless you like macOS. Unfortunately, not many | people see repairability as a feature yet due to the toxic status | quo, but this _could_ change. I think that after brand | recognition is established, this laptop could legitimately be | competitive in the laptop market, and not just appeal to hardcore | techies. | alerighi wrote: | I disagree. If you configure it, it will cost you a ton of | money. The base configuration doesn't have even basic ports. | | At contrary, today at work we bought for 900 euros (700 without | taxes), plus less than 100 euros for an extra 16Gb RAM module, | a thinkpad T14, that has all the features of the base model, | but with 512Gb SSD, Ethernet directly on the laptop, a better | keyboard, a trackpoint, more USB ports, a fingerprint reader, | and a Windows 10 Pro license. | | To me it doesn't make a lot of sense this laptop. Regarding | repairability, it's just like any other Thinkpad, the modular | IO, what is its purpose? Also you are adding components that | can break, consume power, and waste space. And still you don't | provide an ethernet integrated on the laptopt itself, so you | have to always carry around a USB adapter that doesn't work as | reliably as an integrated one. | herpderperator wrote: | The single-thread performance of the M1 doesn't get close to | the competition at its power level, even a year after its | release. [0] The top item in the list is the M1, a 10W CPU. The | second is an Intel requiring 125W. The highest-scoring i5 also | requires 125W, and is 15th in the list. | | Just a reminder that the M1 MacBook Air has no fan, and is | still at the top. | | When choosing a laptop you of course look are more factors than | just performance, but for many, that alone will be an extremely | important consideration. Not to mention that - incredibly - | there isn't even a conventional battery life tradeoff for that | top performance. In that sense, the M1 is a no-brainer. | | [0] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html | p1necone wrote: | M1 does beat every other laptop processor atm in single core | speed, but the latest Ryzen 5X00U (and 4800U) are better in | multithreaded perf (both absolute and per watt) - | https://www.cpubenchmark.net/power_performance.html. | Hopefully the Framework Laptop offers mainboard upgrades with | these at some point. | | I very nearly bought an M1 Macbook, but realized I didn't | want to live with currently early stage linux compatibility. | I'm still thinking of buying an M1 mac mini as a little home | server though - that tiny power consumption combined with | such good CPU performance is perfect for that use case | (although it would be nice if I could somehow attach a bunch | of hot swap HDD bays to a mac mini too). | smoldesu wrote: | > the M1 is a no-brainer | | I don't use MacOS, is it still a no-brainer? | mjhagen wrote: | To me the M1 one is the differentiator not even because of | its performance, but because of what it allows the laptop to | be: Absolute silence with 20 hour battery life. To have it | also be screamingly fast is very nice to have though. | NotPractical wrote: | Performance of the M1 is indeed impressive, and I don't mean | to imply that these CPUs all perform relatively the same. But | I have a 2019 Intel MacBook Pro with an i5, and it does | everything I need a laptop to do: take notes, browse the web, | and do some light programming and gaming (e.g. Minecraft at | 60 FPS). It also runs x86 programs directly rather than | through an emulation layer (though this will become less and | less of a problem as time goes on). | black_puppydog wrote: | just want to note that windows 10 home is 139 of that package | and I don't see how that can reasonably be included in the | _baseline_ here. | [deleted] | MMS21 wrote: | The same configuration is $873 without Windows 10. Even with | HDMI, MicroSD, USB-A, Type C and a power cable its under $1000! | tailspin2019 wrote: | It would be a no-brainier if Macs were still on Intel. But post | M1, I'm not so sure... | | The Air gives this thing a run for its money at a (albeit $21) | lower price. | | That said, I'm 100% behind the Framework concept though - I | like the direction they're heading in. If I needed a | Linux/Windows laptop it would be a serious contender for me. | MonaroVXR wrote: | XPS isn't that great at all, but I need to check the newer | model. | | I'm talking about build quality and performance. | system2 wrote: | Do you have an XPS? | colordrops wrote: | I have an XPS 9560 and yeah the build quality ain't great. | Had to replace the motherboard and battery after two years, | and while the lid is aluminum, the bottom is not, so if you | have it hanging over the edge of a desktop or a non flat | surface, it flexes enough that the touchpad button no | longer registers. These issues might be resolved in newer | models but I probably wouldn't go with a Dell again, unless | it turns out that they are the best of the worst after a | comparison. | felistoria wrote: | It sucks that I absolutely love what Framework is doing but | also absolutely love macOS :( | FearlessNebula wrote: | MacBook Air would be a fair comparison. The pro is pretty | pointless at this point next to the Air. | aguacate wrote: | You should be comparing it to the MacBook M1 Air which is $899. | Battery life & smoothness/performance they achieved with M1 is | phenomenal. Golden handcuffs. | thinkingemote wrote: | Early adopters, hardcore techies may love repairability but | they will buy whatever comes out next. | | What counts is the majority of buyers after these techies. | | It's similar the early buyers of a Tesla who could say "ahh it | will be so eco I don't have to buy another car for 10 years" | and, 3 years later they buy themselves the new model as they | would have normally do with a combustion engine car. Consumers | first. | | The key point is that repairability is important and is a | marketing ploy but isn't a real fundamental issue for wealthy | techies. They will just get another laptop in a year or so. | | It's the non techies that are important, not us! It's the | majority and long tail, not the early adopters that this laptop | should be for! | TeMPOraL wrote: | > _It 's the majority and long tail, not the early adopters | that this laptop should be for!_ | | Why? | | This is the way we end up having only mass-market, lowest- | common-denominator products. Not fighting to get quality | tooling for our niche is one of the important reasons we | don't get any. | mjhagen wrote: | It's techies that advice their non-techie friends and family | though. | ricardobeat wrote: | It doesn't look like a no-brainer to me (already a Mac user). | The MBP has a better screen, better battery life, performance, | has a metal body, is completely silent and has nicer software. | | That said, you should get the Air instead which is $999 with | almost exactly the same specs, minus the annoying touch bar, | and a tad lighter at 1.29kg. | NotPractical wrote: | For the record, I also own a Mac: the MacBook Pro, 2019 | baseline model. I used to enjoy the battery life (though it | has been slowly getting worse to the point where I have | considered reaching out to Apple about it since the battery | is glued in and I can't replace it myself). I like the metal | body. I also like macOS. My MacBook is not completely silent | because it's an Intel mac, but the M1 would be, that's true. | As far as "better screen", I'm not so sure... on paper, the | resolution is nearly the same. I also like the trackpad. But | anyway, you need to decide whether these things are worth the | complete lack of repairability. As a reminder, your Mac's | battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become | useless. I'm seriously considering selling my MBP and buying | this instead. | pvarangot wrote: | > I'm seriously considering selling my MBP and buying this | instead | | Apple's trade-in program is pretty good. My 2012 MacBook | Pro was still tradeable in 2019 for something like 400 | bucks. I would consider that also if you don't want to | abandon the Apple ecosystem. | | Before having to use a Mac for work I preferred a P53 and | an X1 as work laptops, but honestly now that I'm forced to | use macOS again I don't miss Linux at all. Would be great | to be able to choose though, but I'm kinda locked on Xcode | because it's our build system. | OJFord wrote: | Do they go arbitrarily far back, or cut off at some | point? (I have a 2013 Air I've barely used for years... | Should've thought of it sooner.) The site just lists | model names for the Macs, which is oddly non-granular | compared to the iPhones by number: | https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/trade-in | pvarangot wrote: | There's an estimator below where it says "Select your | device for an estimate", and it walks you through a | serial number thing and then gives you an accurate | estimate. I think it does cut off at a point but I'm not | sure when, and it's not the same for all devices. | Matthias1 wrote: | This is a good point. "Repairability" is a lot less | important to me than lifetime. Right now, I have a MacBook | with AppleCare. The author's criticism with AppleCare is | that it can take a week for Apple to repair the computer. | That's reasonable for me. | | So the real test of the Framework computer is not in the | first week. (Although the initial impression is very | impressive!) The real test is whether I can, 3 years after | buying the computer, replace the battery more easily than | Apple could replace the battery in a Mac. Modular hardware | is limited by the availability of the parts, and Framework | doesn't have the brand to convince me that they'll be | around for longer than I can get my computer serviced by | Apple. | smoldesu wrote: | > The real test is whether I can, 3 years after buying | the computer, replace the battery more easily than Apple | could replace the battery in a Mac | | No, the real test is whether you, 3 years after buying | the computer, can replace the battery more easily than | _you_ could replace it on the Mac. Applecare just covers | the cost of a new laptop when your Mac breaks during | warranty. "Repair" is a generous way of putting that. | NotPractical wrote: | Another thing to consider is that, if everyone is | reluctant to try the Framework laptop because they're not | sure about long-term support, it will never receive said | support. I'm willing to take the risk here, for the | greater good! I don't even perceive the risk to be that | high, to be honest. | NotPractical wrote: | Does anyone know if Apple is even capable of replacing | the battery, or if they replace the entire top case | assembly, on 2016+ MacBook Pro models? Apparently the | Air's battery is indeed replaceable (...by Apple) but I'm | not sure the Pro's is, which is incredibly wasteful, if | true. | BoorishBears wrote: | In years past you had to bring up the MBP but now the | Macbook Air tips the scales. | | I got my _16_ GB Macbook Air for $1000 at Microcenter. For | development purposes it 's the same as a Pro, except it | doesn't have a fan (and has never throttled) and doesn't | have a touch bar (which is great) | | The MBA is an insane value with the advent of the M1, a | complete turnaround from the old days. | | Also it has a trick up it's sleeve when it comes to this: | | > the complete lack of repairability. As a reminder, your | Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will | become useless. | | First off, Apple will replace the battery in a MBA for $129 | (vs $200 for the MBP), so a little alarmist... | | But more importantly the new Air uses stretch-release | adhesive (think command strips) and doesn't require | removing the logic board for battery replacements. The MBP | didn't inherent this improvement. | | It's no Framework but it makes it the value proposition | that much sweeter... | gorjusborg wrote: | Word, I'm pretty fed up with throw-away culture, especially | with big ticket items. | | I've used pretty much all the developer laptop contenders | as daily drivers at some point. You get used to what you | get used to, so marginally better isn't so important, I've | found. | | I'm going to pick one of the framework laptops because they | look decent, but my secondary objective is to support a | company that at least is walking some of the walk I want to | see. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | > performance | | https://wccftech.com/intel-and-amd-x86-mobility-cpus- | destroy... | DiabloD3 wrote: | Actually, that's the issue with my MBPR from 2012: it has a | 2560x1600 screen, as in, highly non-standard. It is neither | 1920 wide, nor is it 16:9. | | If I had the option to have purchased it with 1920x1080, I | would have. | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | 16:10 isn't what I'd call "highly non-standard". What kind | of work do you use your laptop for that makes this such a | big issue? | trainsplanes wrote: | > If I had the option to have purchased it with 1920x1080, | I would have. | | For what purpose? I can't imagine a single advantage to | lower resolution. | disiplus wrote: | power consumption, other then that i also dont see it. i | have laptops with 16:9 16:10 and 3:2. I find the 16:9 | worse. | dixie_land wrote: | The almost square aspect ratio really bugs me. Would have tried | it out if not for that | superjan wrote: | For me, that is a selling point! Widescreen is nice for | movies, but when coding or browsing more lines is way more | useful. | gsich wrote: | It's still not as "square" as 4:3. Besides, why not. Other | devices have huge black bars around the display. | ekianjo wrote: | You forgot the used market. The used market for framework | laptops is nil. | agumonkey wrote: | Kudos to them. I envisionned that years ago but never got | anywhere close. | frereubu wrote: | It seems like there are a lot of people here who change their | laptop almost every year or two. Is that common? I ask because | I'm still using my mid-2014 MBP, and it's only really this year | that it's started feeling underpowered with the fans running | quite a bit. Apple laptops are expensive for sure, but compared | to upgrading every year it seems like a good deal, not to mention | the problem of electronic waste. (I'm not looking for an Apple / | PC fight by the way, just haven't heard of people upgrading so | regularly before). | DoingIsLearning wrote: | Checking in with a 2012 Toshiba Satellite R830 still ticking. | Only had to replace the battery pack about 4 years ago. | | Takes me 30 seconds to boot up and 4 seconds to shutdown | running Debian since forever. | | Does what I want and gets out of the way. Never really felt | anything missing performance wise. | ashtonkem wrote: | I still remained baffled by the popularity of the laptop. | Literally everyone I know works with them fixed in one location; | their desk. Yes, some people do need mobility, but this appears | to be a minority of consumers. We could've had all this | repairability and modularity years ago if most consumers just | admitted that really they wanted a desktop all along. | | It also fixed complaints about keyboards. | yccs27 wrote: | Even if you mostly work at your desk, a desktop computer has | just no option for mobility if you ever want to work somewhere | else temporarily. It seems like many people value the option of | mobility, even if they don't use it often. | fayten wrote: | I'm not sure how common it is, but at my old job devs and | business analysts would regularly go on site to work with | clients. Larger teams would have build boxes for CI and VMs | that we could remote into if need be, but other than that | laptops were absolutely required. | | I'm currently writing this at a coffee shop surrounded by | others all working on various things. I really like the option | to work from anywhere. | ashtonkem wrote: | My experience is that everyone claims they want the ability | to go to a coffee shop, but very few actually exercise it. | Obviously some will, like you, but not most. And | unfortunately the perception of need drives behavior more | strongly than actual need. Same with "off road" vehicles and | trucks, people buy things based on capability they'll never | exercise. | | Personally I loved the idea of working from a coffee shop | until I actually tried it. Then I found that the glamour of | the idea was much more than the experience of trying to do | focused work in a noisy environment on a cramped keyboard. So | instead I do work in my office, and leave my laptop | permanently closed and connected like the worlds most | expensive Mac Mini. | joemi wrote: | I keep my personal computer at my desk in my apartment almost | all of the time, and for the past decade have used a desktop | since I pretty much never needed to move it. But over that | decade with a desktop, I found myself wanting - craving - the | ability to easily take my computer on trips, or into the living | room from time to time, etc. Not a lot of movement, but the | possibility for it. But the concept of having files/projects | split over a desktop AND a laptop seemed to be a hassle. And | syncing seemed to be a not-so-ideal situation (possibly hard to | set up, or requiring a paid service, or not reliable, etc). The | best solution I found was a dockable laptop setup. I've now | been using a dockable laptop setup for almost a year and I | honestly can't imagine ever going back. | | The only other solution I could envision I'd be happy with is | one that doesn't exist: where I have a processor and storage | "core" that I can use in a variety of dumb terminals. That's my | real dream, but a dockable laptop is kind of similar. | ashtonkem wrote: | I have a laptop plugged into a dock, from which it basically | never moves. If it was a desktop nothing would change. | | The one thing I want to do in a mobile fashion is take notes | and do zoom meetings, a need that my iPad meets handily. | peeters wrote: | Well OK but now you're already not comparing laptops to | desktops, you're comparing laptops to desktop+iPad. | ashtonkem wrote: | I could do without the iPad and use my phone, I just | coincidentally have an iPad I inherited. I will not be | buying another iPad once it dies, nor will my next | personal computer be a laptop. | | The funny thing is that the laptop is actually incapable | of doing the one thing I would reasonably want it to do: | work outside. It overheats within 5 minutes and slows to | a halt if I dare let the sun hit it. Both the iPad and | iPhone handle this task easily, weirdly enough. | | And this is really the issue I have with laptops; they | try to be everything to everyone and they end up sucking | at any given one task as a result. Compared to my Mac | mini my MBP is expensive and underpowered with | compromised ergonomics and thermals. Compared to my iPad | my laptop has poor battery life, weighs a ton, and | overheats in the sun. All that buying a MBP has done is | waste $2k extra of $CORPs money, and produce a bit more | e-waste given the short upgrade cycle they have me on. | icelancer wrote: | What? I finally switched from a desktop battlestation PC at | work and at home to a high-powered gaming/compute laptop that I | dock at work/home in my 3x monitor setup with mechanical | keyboards and such at each location - and I'm a 1990's LAN | party, lug your giant tower to the basement of your buddy's | place nerd. | | I was really late to switch and I don't regret it at all. | Almost everyone I know made this switch 5+ years ago before me. | | I also needed a laptop _anyway_ with the battlestations, | because I travel for work. Now it 's all in one package and I | spent a lot less money on it. | 3nf wrote: | Carrying to meetings to be productive or stare at Zombo (back | when meetings were in person). Some of my co-workers have a | hybrid schedule and work won't give us two machines. Getting | things done while attending conferences (if those happen | again). | rcthompson wrote: | Even when I'm home 90% of the time during COVID, I use my | laptop in lots of places: my desk, my bed, my dining table, my | kitchen counter, my couch. I can't drag my desktop setup all | around my apartment like that. | ashtonkem wrote: | I don't use my laptop in any of those places _because my | desktop setup isn't there_. Laptop keyboards are awful to | type on, why put yourself through that? | | I'd rather get my work done at the desk and then enjoy my | hammock or couch without the computer, preferably with a good | book. | webmobdev wrote: | It makes sense if you use the laptop as a desktop - plugging | it to a bigger monitor with an external keyboard and mouse. | Otherwise it's hard to have good ergonomic with a laptop and | you can't work long hours on it without developing some body | pain. | bogwog wrote: | What kind of pains does a laptop cause that you wouldn't | also experience on a desktop? | 0des wrote: | Forward head, rounded shoulders. | devmor wrote: | Really? This has maintained true for you even during the | pandemic? | | I don't know a single person who uses their laptop in one | place. Hell, every one of my co-workers has been at home or in | the office with their machine at least a couple times over the | past month. | ashtonkem wrote: | Yes. It has maintained true for me throughout the entire | pandemic. | | Laptop ergonomics are catastrophically bad. Doing any | meaningful work on them for any length of time without my | keyboard, monitor, and mouse just plain sucks, so I don't do | it. | | My personal machines (gaming and non) are both desktops. I've | never wanted to move them, and they cost me a fraction of | what an equivalent laptop would have. | turtlebits wrote: | You must be out of touch. In the last 20 or so years of work | (~8 employers), I have never had a desktop as a primary work | machine (I've had desktops as a secondary machine). My primary | personal machine has also been a laptop in that time frame. | nkellenicki wrote: | Literally everybody in my company (a large enterprise) uses a | laptop as their main workstation. They work with them docked at | their desks, but then unplug them to take them to a meeting | room, a shared working space, etc. | | Outside of work, 90% of people I know have a laptop as their | main computing device at home. Very few have a desktop PC - | those are the PC gamers. | | Your anecdotal experience doesn't match with my anecdotal | experience. | gamacodre wrote: | My anecdotal experience matches yours. I work for a smallish | business in an active growth phase, and the onboarding | process for every employee starts with "Welcome to the | company, here's your laptop." | ashtonkem wrote: | Right, which doesn't actually contradict what I said in any | way. I did not say that companies are giving out desktops, | genuinely not sure why everyone is pretending to the | contrary. | stewbrew wrote: | So you can configure your notebook as you would like to have it | but you cannot select a non-US keyboard layout? | BiteCode_dev wrote: | Give them time, they are just getting started. | ixwt wrote: | Yet, they haven't released them yet. | destitude wrote: | Annoys the crap out of me that Apple tries to claim how | "environmentally friendly" they are and yet the biggest problem | is they make all their computers be disposable and extremely | difficult to repair. They've gone out of their way to do this by | soldering in memory and SSD, gluing batteries in, etc. Shame on | them. | krrrh wrote: | Putting upgradeability aside, Macs typically have longer usable | lifespans as evinced by their relatively high resale value. | Anecdotally, it's common to find 5-7 year old MacBooks being | used by their original owners (I'm typing on one right now), | and Apple will offer around 1/3 of the original value on a 5 | year old machine as a no hassle trade-in because their refurb | partners are able to sell them (you can usually get more | selling privately). | | It would be nice to see some objective stats on this though. | NotPractical wrote: | The design of the MacBook Pro changed in 2016, and it became | less repairable and easier to break (see: issues with | butterfly keyboards). It would be difficult to convince me to | buy a used old 2016+ MacBook Pro. | destitude wrote: | I remember the days when you could actually EASILY replace your | portables battery (after 3+ years), EASILY upgrade your ram and | HD.. now if any of that fails or the system needs more memory | then you have you have to replace the entire computer. I'm sure | this is by design so you spend more money and buy new stuff | instead of upgrading what you already have. | jjoonathan wrote: | Yeah, Apple was really good at replaceable batteries, | keyboards, hard drives, RAM, and wireless cards... right up | until they decided they didn't want to be. IIRC it was | sometime around when they started calling PowerBooks | MacBooks... 2006 or thereabouts. | cush wrote: | It seems like there's so much potential here for a third-party | module market. I wonder how much flexibility these modules | provide. Like, could I create a hifi sound card/DAC? | | I'll definitely be a buyer when they support AMD! | Pr0ject217 wrote: | Cool, but why isn't the CPU bring-your-own? | downWidOutaFite wrote: | Even in desktops it feels like socket+chipset is becoming more | and more tied to specific CPU so that you need to swap the | motherboard and the cpu together. | wheybags wrote: | Because they are BGA chips designed to be soldered on, and most | people do not have the capacity to do that at home. | bserge wrote: | And why are they BGA chips these days? That's the real | problem. Did mobile CPUs somehow advance past desktop ones | while I wasn't looking? | cultofmetatron wrote: | power efficiency? saving weight? | bserge wrote: | Very low and zero value to me. | dageshi wrote: | Then you can certainly carry your desktop around with | you? Since these things are negligible. | bserge wrote: | Yeah that's my plan for the future. | quocanh wrote: | Of course they have! Take a look at ARM. Or Apple's M1 | chip. It's crazy what mobile CPUs can do nowadays. | bserge wrote: | And look at a Ryzen with an integrated GPU. Wow, it has | pins and fits in a socket, it's a miracle! | Matthias247 wrote: | Any kind of socket would require additional height. | Probably at least 5mm. And you would certainly want to | avoid that on mobile devices. For memory thats less of a | problem, because you can plug it from the side, but CPUs | have way more pins, so that won't work. | bserge wrote: | Yeah, the usual. Same reason used for everything soldered | and non replaceable keyboards. | foxfluff wrote: | Probably to shave off the cost (and volume) of a socket. | paleogizmo wrote: | I don't think that mobile CPUs are available socketed | bserge wrote: | Well, not anymore. | | What a fucking travesty. | | And note how this laptop has removable DDR4 SODIMM sticks! | | I couldn't believe it when people were arguing that's | impossible because signal pathways or some shit (too many | laptops have it soldered these days). | wlesieutre wrote: | I think that argument has been applied to LPDDR4, which is | what most laptops use now in pursuit of battery life | bserge wrote: | Oh yeah, I always forget they're different. Anyway, | soldered = dead to me. | not1ofU wrote: | There is an answer to that question in this video: | | "Responding to your comments on the Framework investment" - One | of LTT channels | | Surprisingly NSFW, because they show a clip from Louis | Rossman's Video talking about Linus' investment (its pretty | funny, because it was Live) | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7f3DTDsocA | AnEro wrote: | They also offer instructions to update that for when you need | to upgrade that. | | It's not bring your own but still upgradable, which is what I | care about, especially with a smaller company obviously trying | to keep everything ethics of repairability. | sandbx wrote: | We bought a fairphone 1 and it was total trash and now I feel | burned by this type of product. Maybe once it matures... | downWidOutaFite wrote: | I was annoyed by how their website hides key laptop specs, like | the screen and battery. Felt shady and made me wary. | lrvick wrote: | I am excited to see a company pursue user repairable hardware. | | As a security and privacy researcher I care more about being able | to trust the computer when it is powered on and in use. That | means user controllable firmware, and the Librem 14 has no equal | in this regard. | | It is a real shame I have to choose. I hope these companies will | shamelessly trade ideas or merge. | | A Framework laptop style hardware with a neutered ME and Heads | firmware would not only take my money, but become my top | recommendation for all of the companies I provide security advice | for. | davidw wrote: | I have to use a Mac for work rather than Ubuntu, which I have | dialed with everything just the way I want it, and it is _so_ | frustrating. It drives me batty on a daily basis. | timmit wrote: | Looks like a really good laptop hardware. | | It would be great if the windows is not pre-installed, and let | Linux lovers have the opportunity to opt-out and get dollars back | (the windows os license fee) | twelfthnight wrote: | That is a possible configuration [1]. You can choose None for | operating system and save 139$. | | [1] https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy- | edition/configuration... | MMS21 wrote: | Check out the DIY Edition; it allows you to do exactly this but | you have to install the storage, WiFi adapter and RAM yourself. | renke1 wrote: | I am growing increasingly unhappy with Thinkpads in general, but | as far as I know there is no real alternative for TrackPoint | users. There are some that have a TrackPoint but they lack three | physical mouse button that are in reach of ones thumbs. | philliphaydon wrote: | Why are you growing unhappy? (I have a X1 Extreme Gen 1, and | Legion 7, and Legion 5 Pro, so I'm curious) | renke1 wrote: | A few things. The newer TrackPoint caps are not good. I | actually had to order some 3D printed one from some Japanese | guy. Also my Thinkpad T14 is throttling to the extent that I | had to install tools [1] (?) that fix this problem. Battery | seems to be bad as well. Intel by the way, I wanted to have | Thunderbolt for an eGPU. | | [1]: https://github.com/erpalma/throttled | philliphaydon wrote: | Work gave me a dell XPS last year. I had it for a Week and | gave it back because when I turned it on. The fans spin | full throttle. And the laptop still throttled itself. So I | use my X1E for work. The nipple is as good but it's flat | for the thin profile. | | I upgraded all 3 laptops with more or better ram, wifi, and | ssds. And currently ordering a Traditional Chinese keyboard | for the L5P for the wifey. But I took AMD for the legions. | renke1 wrote: | I regret not opting for the Ryzen variant, but I really | wanted to replace my old desktop computer for the | occasional gaming session (although they are rare these | days) and hence the need for Thunderbolt. | matthewn wrote: | > I actually had to order some 3D printed one from some | Japanese guy | | Thank you for mentioning this alternative! Just found him | on Etsy. I have always preferred the old-style concave nibs | for TrackPoints over the new convex ones. This will be a | serious improvement for my Thinkpad. | renke1 wrote: | It's an improvement but they are not as good as the old | ones which were slightly larger. | | I still use one of those on my external Thinkpad | keyboard. | orthecreedence wrote: | Bundled spyware. That's why I swore off Lenovo. | renke1 wrote: | I've bought it without any OS installed. But of course the | general practice may be good reason to avoid Lenovo (if you | can live without a TrackPoint, that is). | orthecreedence wrote: | Joke's on you, the spyware was in the bootloader =] | soperj wrote: | Soldered Ram. | philliphaydon wrote: | Oh so dependent on the actual model not ThinkPads | themselves. | soperj wrote: | As far as I've seen nearly all of them have Soldered ram | now. Can you point to some that don't? | rhblake wrote: | Some of the latest models in the "classic" lines with one | or more RAM slots: P14s Gen 2 AMD/Intel (a.k.a. T14 Gen 2 | AMD/Intel); T15 Gen 2 / P15s Gen 2; P15 Gen 2; T15p Gen | 2; P1 Gen 4; X1 Extreme Gen 4. Plus some of the slightly | more "budget" ones like L14 Gen 2 AMD/Intel and E14 Gen 3 | AMD. | | Tip: search "<model name> psref" to quickly get to a PDF | with specifications. | lufte wrote: | What would be the requirement for someone to build a trackpoint | for the Framework laptop? Would they need to design a whole new | keyboard plus a touchpad with the three buttons? | renke1 wrote: | I don't really know, but since there are no manufacturers | that built good TrackPoints I think its either hard or there | really is no demand (sadly more likely). | | I don't need a touchpad though. Actually, one of the best | laptops I've owned was one without a touchpad [1]. | | [1]: https://thinkwiki.de/Datei:TP_X60_2.jpg | lufte wrote: | > I don't really know, but since there are no manufacturers | that built good TrackPoints I think its either hard or | there really is no demand (sadly more likely). | | Those are good points. I'm thinking there could be patents | involved too. | | > I don't need a touchpad though. Actually, one of the best | laptops I've owned was one without a touchpad [1]. | | That's true! I don't really use the touchpad on my X230, | even though it's there. | webmobdev wrote: | I am so happy to see the Framework laptop get the good publicity | it deserves, and I hope it helps them grow much more. | | My fear is that when it becomes popular enough, one of the | BigTech's may just make an offer too good to refuse, and just buy | and bury the company. | [deleted] | LAC-Tech wrote: | I'm always surprised how quickly "hacker" news is to promote | apple hardware and tear down anything linux related. | | Any thread about linux or a linux machine turns into this. People | promoting macs. | | The hacker culture really has changed a lot in the past 10 years. | ad133 wrote: | This looks really cool, but the author... is... replacing their | laptop _every year_? Like, I 'm writing this on an 8 year old MBP | that has survived as my round-the-house driver because it still | does everything well. My daily driver is getting on a bit now | (3yr) and my desktop only just got replaced after 5 years. | | Forget the cost, but the waste! | [deleted] | zumu wrote: | >Forget the cost, but the waste! | | They can just sell the laptop and someone else will use it. For | example, I almost never buy new laptops, as perfect Linux | support generally lags behind. | riffic wrote: | "the author" here is well known writer Cory Doctorow. No one | here seems to be making this connection, but pluralistic.net is | his blog. | [deleted] | teekert wrote: | Ah, hehe, I got confused opening the tweet. I wonder why I | had in my head that this was a woman writing the story, must | be the monica-byrne in the url :) | sneak wrote: | It's very, very normal for wealthy people to replace their | daily-use tools every year, or even more often. | | I replace my phone and laptop and iPad every year. I know | people who replace their car and wardrobe and luggage every | year, too. | | In laptops and mobile devices in general, annual updates make a | lot of sense as power efficiency is still regularly increasing. | The M1 Air, is, for example, a fucking marvel. It's been out | for way less than a year. I have an M1 Air, and will upgrade it | again in less than a year when the Mx (where x > 1) Macbook Pro | comes out. | mkka wrote: | The author, Cory, links to a previous explanation of when he | quit smoking he converted the cost into getting a new laptop | annually. As he mentioned in the article he typically finds a | new home for the used device. Laptop appears to be his primary | device and critical to his work so updates annually makes | sense, though a new device is partially due to the construction | framework elimates(i.e. riveted or glued components). | tombert wrote: | Back when I was making crap wages, I would get the cheapest | laptops I could afford that would more or less give me decent | performance (on the order of ~$500-600). It's not too hard to | find a new laptop that performs well at a reasonable price, but | you always run the risk of them reclaiming those costs by | cheaping out on all the mechanics of it, and it's not like I | was able to afford paying ~$2000 for a high-quality machine. | Usually within 2 years, the laptop would just start falling | apart, I would get sad, and then I would repeat the pattern. | | After the fourth or so time of doing this, and after getting | higher-paying jobs, I ended up biting the bullet for a more | expensive computer, and it lasted me five years, and I only | replaced it because I wanted more RAM. | | Point is, if you're lower-income, it's fairly easy to get stuck | in the "one laptop a year" trend, because, while probably a | better deal in the long term, it's really hard for lower-income | to justify a multi-thousand dollar expense. I'm a proper tech | bro now so buying a good computer isn't the worst thing in the | world for me, but that wasn't always the case. | danielmg wrote: | That's the Vimes' boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness. | da_chicken wrote: | I bought a low end laptop back in 2005, and I used it for | about 2-3 years until it started to fall apart. It just | didn't hold up (hinges started to disintegrate). It's | performance was terrible, too, and it couldn't be upgraded. | | I got a business class laptop in 2007 for probably 3 times as | much. That laptop lasted me until _last month_. I maxed out | the RAM and replaced the HD with an SSD about 7 years ago, | but it was ultimately the now-anemic CPU and graphics that | got me to buy a replacement. I 'd have replaced it last fall | but laptop stocks were too low. | toast0 wrote: | Looking at your trend, you've got $500 laptop / 2 year, or | $2000 laptop / 5 year, which reduces to $250 laptop / year vs | $400 laptop / year. Getting low cost laptops isn't | necessarily a worse financial outcome, although it depends on | how fast the processor updates are moving; when a 2020 intel | cpu is about the same as a 2015 intel cpu, it would probably | have been better to pay a little more in 2015 for a faster | one; when a 2015 intel cpu smokes a 2010 intel cpu, | incremental updates every year or two mean a low cost 2015 | cpu is probably better than a high cost 2010 cpu. Plus, you | get a battery refresh (even if it's small). | | I think there's more junk at the low end to avoid, but it's | not as if the high end doesn't have a lot of junk to avoid. | Either way, you have to do careful shopping. | | It's like just my opinion, but a lot of higher end laptop | spending seems to be on increasing the screen's DPI, which is | then run with scaling, at the cost of more CPU, more RAM, | more GPU, and more software BS. Buying a cheaper laptop with | fewer pixels that just runs 1:1 saves all that extra | computation and BS, and maybe looks a bit less nice. | Sometimes glossy screens are reserved for the high cost | laptops, which is like wait, I want a matte screen, so I have | to save money to get one, great! | volta83 wrote: | I have an apple macbook air from mid 2012, that i paid | 1200$ for. If it survies 6 more months, then I've spent | 120$/year on laptops over the last 10 years. | lotsofpulp wrote: | I have a 2015 air that was $1k. I expect to get down to | $120 per year in a couple years, but I would have to add | $10/year for replacing the battery every few years. | tombert wrote: | Yeah, I've actually done this math too, though I don't | think it's quite this simple. When a laptop started falling | apart, I usually tried to just put up with it until I | couldn't. | | For example, I used to have an Asus computer whose plastic | surrounding the screen decided to start coming detached | from the monitor flap. This made the laptop substantially | more fragile and annoying to use, and after a certain point | I tried to remedy this with gorilla glue and it led to this | ugly mess on the bottom left corner. The laptop still | "worked" in the sense that still did computation, but it | was crappier. Then the 7 key broke off the keyboard, I was | unable to put it back on, so I just decided I didn't need | the 7 key, since I didn't type 7 that often, and when I did | I could still hit the little switch. Again, the laptop | still "worked" in the sense that it still did computation, | but it was crappier. A bunch of other stuff ended up | happening (e.g. the LED for the backlight started to go out | and become this flickery mess, the connector to the battery | didn't always seem to make contact, etc). | | Stuff like that starts to add up, and "experience" is | substantially more difficult to quantify. I bought an | expensive Macbook, and I never had any issues outside of | the inevitable "moores law" depreciation. | toast0 wrote: | > I bought an expensive Macbook, and I never had any | issues outside of the inevitable "moores law" | depreciation. | | I hope that keeps going. I used a macbook for work for | almost 8 years, and they did OK, but I had one that | decided not to take external power and the hard drive | wasn't removable, thankfully I noticed it wasn't charging | while it was near full so I could pull a backup to a | spare work hand. And then there was the year where iTunes | would have a 25% chance of spewing high volume digital | noise at me instead of playing music. I guess that was a | software problem because it went away with the next major | OS X release, but no useful forum contents. I think there | was something else bothersome too, but not sure anymore. | roland35 wrote: | Maybe next time your 7 key breaks you can set up a macro | so everytime you type "6+1" it will replace it with "7"! | szundi wrote: | I usually buy top quality laptops second hand from shops that | give at least 6 months warranty. Best strategy. You get a | $2000 laptop for $500. And honestly, Intel did not do too | much in the last decade, so these are of great value. | itronitron wrote: | In my experience, it's the laptop case that always fails | first. So it's disappointing to see the trend toward ultra- | thin cases. | hyperman1 wrote: | I found it's better to buy a second hand top model, or even | last year's best on sale, than brand new low quality stuff. | | It's a little less visible for laptops than for, say, kitchen | appliances, but even there my thinkpad x220 was bought and | upgraded for EUR400 in 2015, and it did its job well untill | half way this year. | dickfickling wrote: | As the other comments have noted, Cory addresses this further | down in the linked post. He further expanded on this in the | post he wrote when he quit smoking[0]: | | > That was my homework: go away and think of an immediate | reason not to smoke. When I came back, I had my answer ready: | "I spend two laptops per year on smokes. That money goes | directly to the dirtiest companies on Earth, the literal | inventors of the science-denial playbook that is responsible | for our inaction on climate change. Those companies' sole | mission is to murder me and all my friends. I'm going to quit | smoking and I'm going to buy a laptop this year and every year | hereafter, and I'll still be up one laptop per year." | | [0]: https://doctorow.medium.com/i-quit-9ae7b6010c99 | exolymph wrote: | I don't care enough but I want someone to fact-check him on | the environmental impact of a MacBook worth of cigarettes | versus the MacBook itself. It'd be funny if the MacBook is | ultimately worse for Nature. | sudosysgen wrote: | If he's giving his old one to someone else that presumably | needs it, I don't see why it would be a negative. | | The cigarettes are probably better for Nature since you'll | live a shorter life. | afterburner wrote: | Or he could just save the money. But I guess he has to | constantly reward himself for quitting? Man addiction sure is | a pain. | micromacrofoot wrote: | I know people who still crave cigarettes 20 years after | quitting, so an annual award doesn't seem too odd to me. | Don't smoke, kids. | avgDev wrote: | Sounds like giving up one addiction for another. But I | guess buying laptops yearly is better for your health than | smoking. | aseipp wrote: | The labor and physical footprint needed to produce modern | electronics is _completely insane_. You 're comparing | little league basketball to major league baseball, and | it's not like a player like Framework is going to change | this at all. | | There is a severe ecological impact to the wider | environment that comes from electronics, let's not kid | ourselves. That doesn't mean buying electronics makes you | like, a terrible person, but if you're sitting around | prostheyzing on blogs like Doctorow about how these | companies are killing you, it's a bit funny to | essentially go from a thing that kills people you know in | the first world to one that only kills people in the | third world you never cared for. Modern comforts like | cutting edge electronics have extreme externalities. | Like, okay, let me just throw the "murders people I care | about" problem over the fence, where it will surely not | be an issue for all those people halfway across the | planet from me (that I coincidentally do not care or | think about.) | | In general I'm not trying to be too hard. It's not like | anyone else deals with this level of cognitive dissonance | much better, and I say that as someone who mostly quit | cold turkey over a year ago... | DharmaPolice wrote: | >it's a bit funny to essentially go from a thing that | kills people you know in the first world to one that only | kills people in the third world you never cared for | | I feel like you're not really representing his argument | on why he quit fairly. He does talk about the effects of | tobacco on the developing world for one and also his | overall reason seems to be more relating to the wider | idea of tobacco companies being pioneers in the | misinformation industry. | 0des wrote: | While acutely better for the individual, surely the | e-waste and resource sequestration outweigh that over | time | ip26 wrote: | From the smokers in my life, it's apparent to me people | generally need a fairly concrete reason or goal to | successfully quit. | | Otherwise it's always _Sure, I 'll quit - tomorrow_ | | Willpower is a muscle. It fatigues. So simply willing your | way out of an addiction is not effective for many people. | felistoria wrote: | My mom smoked for about 45 years and stopped the day she | found out she was having a grand daughter. She didn't | want to smell like smoke around her. Hasn't touched a cig | in years. The whole family is better for it. | rozab wrote: | Well, maybe he's happier this way? There's a classic joke | about a lifelong smoker talking to a stop-smoking | councillor: | | "With all the money you've spent on cigarettes in your | lifetime, you could have bought a Ferrari." | | "Do you smoke?" | | "No." | | "Then where's your Ferrari?" | | It's a good question. Most of us have the financial | capability to be extremely extravagant with a few select | areas of our life, but instead we average everything down | to boring mediocrity. | mdoms wrote: | Can't take your money to the grave man. Cory is well set up | and isn't hurting for cash. | aspaceman wrote: | > Or he could just save the money. | | What a stupid comment. He saved the money and spent it on | what he wanted. The hell? | | He should save the money and you should call your | grandmother. | 0des wrote: | People justify buying things they don't technically need in | many different ways. | comeonseriously wrote: | Kudos to him for quitting. I quit, oh, about a dozen years | ago. When I decided to quit, every time I smoked, I told my | self they taste like shit; every drag off the cigarette, I | told myself that. Eventually (about 2 or 3 months as I | recall) it worked and I could no longer stand the taste and | haven't touched one since. | JZL003 wrote: | Also just bc the link is buried, see | https://doctorow.medium.com/i-quit-9ae7b6010c99 | | He traded smoking for buying a new laptop every year. Now that | it's been years, I guess he could quit _and_ not buy a new | laptop. But also people do more wasteful things. I do | understand though, I drive laptops into the ground over many | years but still 4-5 years per laptop | lapetitejort wrote: | Further down the article: | | > The environmental consequences of that system weren't lost on | me, even given my very good track-record of re-homing my old | computers with people who needed them. | qolop wrote: | The author does address that | | > The environmental consequences of that system weren't lost on | me, even given my very good track-record of re-homing my old | computers with people who needed them. | czechdeveloper wrote: | That's not really addressing it. It's just acknowledging it. | dathinab wrote: | If it causes other people not to by new laptops, it kinda | is addressing it. (As long as we assume the people getting | the old laptop would have bought a new laptop, which might | or might not be the case.) | bitwize wrote: | What you're supposed to do, apparently, is buy a brand-new | laptop, use it for a few months, then flip it on eBay before it | gets too old so you can recover most of what you spent on it | and buy the next new laptop. | | I worked with a guy who practiced this with all his personal | hardware. | [deleted] | gattilorenz wrote: | And apparently it made sense for him to pay 150$/year to get | his laptop fixed in 24h if needed, and buy two powerbooks at | once... I guess what he really should have bought is a | Toughbook instead of a ThinkPad? | ndiddy wrote: | Buying a new thinkpad every year is especially confusing to | me given that Lenovo's switch from mobile to ultrabook | processors in the x40 series meant that for around 5 years, | buying a newer thinkpad than the x30 series meant getting a | speed downgrade. | bluedino wrote: | >> replacing their laptop every year? | | Not really that uncommon especially with a MacBook Pro where a | new one is released...every year. | | How much sense it makes, that's another story. | JohnBooty wrote: | Ignoring the (potentially substantial) environmental costs, | if you do it "correctly" the total cost of ownership is about | the same. | | If you buy a $2000 Mac and use it for as long as reasonably, | it's going to depreciate by several hundred dollars (let's | say, roughly $300) a year. At a certain point it's worth | nearly zero, and you must buy a new laptop. After 6-7 years | your total outlay is $2000. | | Alternatively, every year or two you can sell the old one for | a few hundred dollars less than the new model, and buy the | new model. You always have a new laptop. And your total | outlay is still only about $2000. Plus you are covered by | free AppleCare every time you buy the new one. | | Plenty of people do this with mobile phones and automobiles | and other things as well. | | Please note that I am _not_ advocating it. I was still using | my 2015 laptop until very recently. But economically it is | not necessarily insane. | | (Assuming you are selling the old laptops, that is. It's not | clear to me that the author is doing that. He says he's | donating/rehoming them. Not sure if that includes selling) | bluedino wrote: | The downtime of setting up a new laptop, migrating data, | etc is going to be worth several hundred dollars to many | people | TwiztidK wrote: | Many products are released on a yearly basis, but very few | people are upgrading every year. | flatiron wrote: | 2013 MacBook Air daily driver here. MagSafe? Usb A? Sd card | reader? User replaceable battery? Runs Linux? All checks. It's | light on RAM (which for just chrome and light app use honestly | it's fine). | tucosan wrote: | It just haa a horrible screen resolution. | flatiron wrote: | yeah 1440x900 does kinda stink, but the screen is so small | it doesn't really bother me too much. plasma does a good | job shrinking itself down enough and virtual desktops help. | 99% its a full screen chromium window so who cares. | lotsofpulp wrote: | I would guess that MacBook Airs, especially the current | ones, are sufficient for the needs of 80%, maybe even | 90%, of the entire laptop market, who I presume just need | to be able to use a browser and spreadsheets. | | And they last for years and years, and I doubt the | cost:performance:longevity ratios can be beat. | KingMachiavelli wrote: | Given that the expansion ports are just USB C ports, the real | innovation (one of them) is making an integrated dongles. The | only issue I see is that the adapters are a big too large but | also a bit too small; the adapters are large enough that there | are only 4 but also small enough that making a 2x USB A adapter | would be quite challenging. | | I think the idea could be expanded upon. Dongles that extend | beyond the chassis such that they protrude a bit but make a flush | contact with the laptop chassis. This would let you basically | turn a typical USB dock into a permanent extension. Perhaps | instead of having an two expansion ports on each side, each side | of the computer including the front & back would have one larger | port. I don't think having two USB C ports does anything to | increase overall bandwidth available since it's probably all | shared anyway. | | Also once Thunderbolt 4 and USB 4 are available it should make | creating standardized expansion adapters a lot easier since you | won't have to worry about an adapter needing Thunderbolt on an | AMD system. | minsc__and__boo wrote: | >the adapters are large enough that there are only 4 but also | small enough that making a 2x USB A adapter would be quite | challenging. | | This was my thought as well, but they're planning on doing more | interfaces than what they're listing now, so it may be they | went for universibility with the size. | | Also USB-A is going to slowly die off anyways, so I doubt it's | good to build the dongle standard to two USB-As. | m1117 wrote: | From the mission: "products that give you back the power to | customize" and shipped w/Windows pre-installed. | tikhonj wrote: | You can order the "DIY Edition" without an OS pre-installed, as | well as _a lot_ of other customization. | | https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition/configuration... | Swenrekcah wrote: | You can choose no Windows, or pay a bunch of extra money and | get Windows. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | I wish that I needed a laptop so that I could buy one. I | sincerely hope this company succeeds so that they are around when | I do need a laptop. | | > Yesterday, I put my 2019 Thinkpad on my pile of "laptops to | refurbish and donate." I've bought a new Thinkpad almost every | year since 2006. I think that's over. | | wat | smoldesu wrote: | If it's any consolation, I've bought a used Thinkpad every year | since 2015. | fouc wrote: | how do you get rid of the doubly used Thinkpads? | smoldesu wrote: | Only one of them has broken so far, and it was only an | issue with the display. I repurposed it into a | homelab/Podman host and it's been able to work just fine! | | As a quick aside, if you're ever one of the 15 people who | will likely do this, buy a Thinkpad dock. They're cheap, | and it basically triples your I/O! | thinkingemote wrote: | Just to continue the question, what do you do with the | other laptops? You should have at least 4 or 5 more which | are unaccounted for. I imagine only one is used | currently. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | Not them, but I keep a long trail of old laptops and | generally do in fact keep them all in active use on a | regular basis. For me part of the appeal was that I like | distro-hopping, so multiple machines made it easy to keep | rotating OSs without much trouble. The core bits (browser | profile, password manager) are synced, and my projects | live in version control that's easy to pull to any | machine that happens to not have it yet, so I just... | grab the closest machine when I want to do something and | go. (And I tend to have them laying around multiple rooms | so there's always one at hand) | smoldesu wrote: | I gave an old workstation to my mom and a spare T440p to | my brother, now the x201 and T460s occupy my tinker | station and bedroom respectively. Oh, and there's also a | T420 that my other brother uses as a media server, but | that's not really mine anymore :p | speed_spread wrote: | Hint: "used" is a boolean, not a counter. | fouc wrote: | It was a joke. I was gonna write "used used laptop" since | the poster used a used laptop. I thought doubly used | would be slightly less confusing. | pc86 wrote: | It's addressed in the article _and_ elsewhere in these | comments, several times. They donate them after a year in order | to upgrade. Seems a perfectly reasonable and responsible use | case if you want a new laptop every year. | thinkingemote wrote: | >wat | | "Self described early adopter consumer sees early adopter | friendly project and supports it" | | One might see some cognitive dissonance between the state of | mind of being pro recycling and supporting reduce and reuse and | being an eager consumer. However early adopters dance this line | and lead the way for the masses to come after. | | All a matter of perspective or framing. | einpoklum wrote: | > it's no thick-as-a-brick throwback the size of a 2005 Thinkpad | - it's approximately the same dimensions as a MacBook. | | So, it's a bad laptop in my book (pun not intended). | | You see, a laptop needs a good keyboard; and a good keyboard | needs height for the keys to travel. So, a laptop needs to be | kind of "think as a brick". Maybe not at 2005 levels, but | definitely at 2010 levels and no thinner. | | However - a laptop which is reasonably easy to disassemble, and | hence customize, is definitely something I support in principle. | I'm not sure this can catch on if it's essentially a single- | vendor thing. | devmor wrote: | Have you tried one? I have one and it has the nicest laptop | keyboard I've ever used. | guru4consulting wrote: | Imagine doing this at a large scale for the whole industry.. TVs, | mobile phones, dishwashers, microwaves.. helps consumers and our | planet environment too | dewiz wrote: | Is it Windows 11 compatible (serious question) ? | | Edit: yes - https://community.frame.work/t/windows-11/2451 | asddubs wrote: | >I've bought a new Thinkpad almost every year since 2006. | | Why? I bought a thinkpad and used it for 7 years. Who needs a new | laptop every year? Especially these days | | Sorry I know it's besides the point of the article but it stood | out to me | Groxx wrote: | This is covered in the article. | tcskeptic wrote: | He discusses his reasons in the article, it was a reward to | himself for quitting smoking. | amiantos wrote: | This is kind of a weird piece that really doesn't mean anything | at all. I understand being in the "honeymoon phase" with a new | piece of technology, but I don't feel like Cory is aware that | he's doing that here. But there's some signs: He loved Thinkpads | originally, but over the course of several years the company and | the quality of the product went down the tubes. Now he's got a | brand new laptop that he's only had for one month and is | declaring it the best thing ever since sliced bread. But it's not | really a fair comparison, a brand new niche product that hasn't | been battled tested in any way versus a long-term established | brand that he used for years. What will the Framework be like in | many years? He offers extremely optimistic ideas, but obviously | nothing concrete, because he just got the laptop. | | I dunno, it just felt weird to me to be like "I loved this | product I used for years, but it sucks now" and then say "I love | this new product I've barely used!" without a hint of self- | awareness that all the optimism and initial love for a product in | the world won't keep it from turning into a pile of junk. How | long until a "I went back to Thinkpads" article? A year, two, | three? | lugu wrote: | Why being so negative? He seems to like how easy it is to tear | down the machine and how easy it is to install ubuntu. That's | it. I don't think this will change in 10 years, and I don't | want to wait 10 years to hear about his experience. | MMS21 wrote: | I agree with your honeymoon phase comment but if Framework | followed what Lenovo did to ThinkPads, there would be no reason | to buy them. | leephillips wrote: | I did think it odd that he was talking about the durability of | a product that he'd barely unwrapped. But his other points seem | cogent, and are orthogonal to how long he's used any of the | products. | 300bps wrote: | I have a Lenovo Carbon X1. Can't get more than 16 GB of RAM. | Can't get larger than 1 TB hard drive. Really crappy wifi | chipset that blows up when I use a VPN. | | I kinda feel like he explained what happened to ThinkPad. They | went from IBM which for $150 per year would send out a tech | anywhere in the world to fix your problem to Lenovo who... | let's just say isn't as good. | fouc wrote: | Or better yet, after 5-10 years of frame.work laptops being | wildly successful, they will slowly start killing off the | upgradeability/fixability of the laptop. | snowwrestler wrote: | This is just how Cory writes in general. You're not going to | get a lot of measured maybes. He is an opinionated guy. | | And in this case, what's the harm? If a laptop doesn't work | out, it can be replaced. This one just got released, so a long- | term reliability test isn't even possible yet. | Johnny555 wrote: | What are the long term prospects for this company? I'd like to | have a repairable/upgradable laptop, but if they go out of | business in a year, it's not much of an improvement over a | Macbook... granted, it'd be some improvement since I could | replace/upgrade commodity components like RAM or the hard drive | but if the motherboard or display fails, I have to buy a new | laptop. | OJFord wrote: | Not great if we all think like that and 'wait to see'! | | It's still better though, a lot of it is standardised stuff - | you don't need Framework to exist to be able still to replace | your M2 SSD, WiFi, DDR4 RAM. | [deleted] | tastyfreeze wrote: | That is without a doubt the best laptop customizing process I | have ever gone through. | | Finally a manufacturer that is offering a more "desktop" build | experience in a laptop form factor. Framework will be my first | choice when I need a new laptop. | AnEro wrote: | I am saving currently for it and I can't describe the vague worry | I feel that this will become the next big thing. Where I'll be | refreshing their page every morning for new drops to attempt to | get them before they sell out | joering2 wrote: | Very exciting. Their site allowed me to configure mine with 54 | HDMI ports. Will this come in some sort of octopus cable one | USB-C split to 54 HDMIs? Can't wait to find out! | major--neither wrote: | how's the keyboard? | noasaservice wrote: | > Can I use a different Operating System? | | > Base and Performance configurations ship with Windows 10 Home | pre-installed and Professional ships with Windows 10 Pro pre- | installed. You can also load your own operating system later, | like a Linux distribution. | | So... Forced windows tax, even when Dell can manage for Linux. | Yuck. Like, really yuck. | | And for the specs: | | > Base $999.00 | | > i5-1135G7 | 8GB Memory | 256GB Storage | WiFi 6 | Windows 10 | Home | | 8 gigs of ram? Well, I guess that's 1 chrome or firefox window | open, and an electron app. And .25TB ssd? That's great for a | machine 8 years ago. | | I'll stick with Dell's Business line. They're rugged, parts are | serialized and easy to order/obtain. Pass on the "Framework". | rgrmrts wrote: | If you get a DIY version you don't pay the windows tax. You can | also install your own cheaper ram and toss in 64gigs. | | Assembly took me about 5 minutes. | Fordec wrote: | I'm not in the market for a laptop right now, but the next time | around two years from now, if there's an AMD variant with | dedicated GPU that I can have two HDMI ports for my external | screens they will have a sale from me. | daemonk wrote: | I think this is cool. But at some point in my career/life in the | tech space, I stopped caring as much about my tools as long as it | works to a reasonable degree. I am fine with whatever | Dell/Apple/Asus/etc laptop that's out there. Will my productivity | increase if I switch to Framework? Maybe? I am not sure how to | convince people like me. Obviously, I am not the target audience | for this. I wonder what is their addressable market? | 1970-01-01 wrote: | A good video about it is here: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rkTgPt3M4k | idoubtit wrote: | The article contains a link to the page where one can customize a | Framework order https://frame.work/laptop-diy-edition The problem | with this page is that I can't see which component is selected, | even after I click on them. Zooming in, I see that selection | means coloring the thin border in red. About 8% of male adults | have at least a minor trouble with colors, usually green and red, | so that UI is annoying/unusable for many people. I hope their | computers are better thought out. | | tl;dr Framework's shopping site is broken in case of light color | blindness. | readflaggedcomm wrote: | It's a 2px border, so I guess that only really works with | lower-resolution screens, anyway. It probably should have been | specified with a unit like `rem` instead, (the background | should also stay different instead of only on transition). | pedalpete wrote: | I'm pretty excited about this, but I do wish they had made a | design that wasn't an Apple clone. I don't want people to look at | my computer and mistake it as a clone/copy. I feel it's a missed | opportunity for them to say "look, there's a better way". | monkeydust wrote: | Pretty happen with my X1 Carbon but once I am not this is | definitely the next laptop I will get. | gigatexal wrote: | If this is truly popular to change the industry then even big | players like Apple will adapt. My bet is that it's super popular | in the niche that is the HN audience but not much more. | reidjs wrote: | I don't personally want an exciting laptop. I want a laptop that | works with all my other stuff (phone, tv, printer, various | software) the moment I open it. | MikusR wrote: | Can you provide an example, or that is just a dream you have? | nsriv wrote: | Highlighted on the Linus Tech Tips video on the Framework | laptop, there are thoughtful touches like drivers installing in | unattended mode upon OS install, so the team clearly puts | importance on that seamless functional experience too. | kiba wrote: | Good news. If you have things that work with ubuntu. It should | work with this laptop too. | | With the exception of being able to repair and replace parts, | the Frame.work laptop is very boring. | vaidhy wrote: | This is all great, but I hope the oct batch ships now. Just | waiting for it to show up is driving me crazy :) | tbrock wrote: | He lost a little bit of credibility saying the Macbooks have | terrible build quality... compared to a thinkpad they are on par | or better, compared to everything else they are head and | shoulders above. | riffic wrote: | Part of "build quality" in my mind is the ability to repair | your device. Apple has shown this to be something they do not | care highly about: | | https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability?sort=score | | While, yes, they may be built well in your mind, in many other | people's minds they aren't. | [deleted] | mixmastamyk wrote: | Powerbooks he mentioned, didn't he? Different era. | nautilius wrote: | He didn't say that. He talks about _Powerbooks_ | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook | hobs wrote: | He did not say that, he said PowerBooks had terrible build | quality, which they definitely did. | themodelplumber wrote: | Thank you for the writeup, it seems like they have done a great | job with The Framework. Does it come in that beige-looking color | shown on the yellow background? | | I think I might want a beige laptop, something with the fine | lines of The Framework and the raw aesthetic appeal of Lappy 486. | animal_spirits wrote: | And don't forget that classy startup noise. | leeoniya wrote: | > From now on, I can easily see myself upgrading the CPU or the | screen on an annual basis | | how feasible is this, given that sockets and chipsets change | every 2 years? also, the ultra low voltage / TDP parts are rarely | available for purchase by end users. | devmor wrote: | I got one of the first waves, it's awesome. My only complaint so | far is getting the fingerprint sensor to function properly in | Linux - but that may be more of an issue with fprintd/libfprint | than anything. | | I'm dual booting Win10 and Debian, and absolutely no issues under | Windows so far either. | | The battery life is great, the screen is extremely crisp and | bright, and the keyboard actually feels decent to type on. | joombaga wrote: | The fingerprint reader does work in Linux after compiling newer | versions of fprintd and libfprint. I'm using it in GDM and for | sudo. | mdoms wrote: | > We haven't opened ordering in your region yet, but we're | looking forward to getting there! We can notify you when ordering | opens: | | Ok. You know who has "opened ordering" in my region? Every other | laptop vendor. | bigpeopleareold wrote: | I like what they are doing, but I am sticking with my 2 primary | thinkpads for now, which is fine as well and certainly eco :) | They are still a perfect level of repairability (t430s and a | t470p) even if I can't upgrade the CPUs on them. | | I am excited over seeing this project, but these things have | stuck out for me: | | 1. I am concerned over long-term screen hinge strength. I can't | see the build on it, but I will not cheap out on that after | dealing with bad hinges (screwed into plastic, not a metal frame | on a Dell) | | 2. I am concerned over the durability of the screen. I am not an | expert at this, but I have no worry over the screen if I chuck it | in a bag or my cats who sometimes stand on the top of the laptop | when I put it on the floor. | | 3. I watched Louis Rossmann's takes on it - I was hoping he would | go into the tactile feel of the keyboard. I can wait though for | any commentary on that from a ThinkPad user. I can try to stop | using the TrackPoint (would hate unlearning that) but a good | laptop keyboard is essential. (I declare the best laptop keyboard | I ever experienced is the one I have on my t430s. Lenovo has made | the key travel lower and lower over the years. The t470p and | others around that year I used is OK, but doesn't compare | really.) | | If anything were to go wrong though, hey, I can at least repair | it :D But, I continue to stare in wonder over this. I'd love to | be proven otherwise on these points. | cassepipe wrote: | The case/hinges has always been the first thing to fall apart | in all my passed laptops. This is the third and the plastic | case is showing age. The other two are still running well but | they can't be moved around at all no more. Basically I want | something as tough as an Apple Macbook but without Apple crap | on it (I need Linux). My next laptop will have the best case | and hinges or there won't be another one. I can't stand seeing | perfectly runnning old machines made unusable because cheap | assembly. | binkHN wrote: | > I can try to stop using the TrackPoint (would hate unlearning | that)... | | Same here. I'm addicted to it and can't get over the tactile | feel. I guess this will go the way of the mobile phone | keyboard, assuming it hasn't already. | khqc wrote: | I guess a workaround for now (until someone designs a | trackpoint keyboard that fits in the framework) could be | Lenovo's bluetooth trackpoint keyboard, I use it with every | laptop and it's been great | someguydave wrote: | I just want a laptop that has ECC ram | thebruce87m wrote: | Am I missing the keyboard options? The $ instead of PS is an | annoyance but I can't handle the tiny enter key. | calebm wrote: | This sounds like the ultimate hacker laptop. | SeanLuke wrote: | Wait, wait, wait. The Framework is supposed to be entirely | customizable. Except I _have_ to buy Windows 10 Home, which has | an OEM cost of, what, about $100? And I have to have the little | Windows icon on my keyboard. This alone gets me thinking about | other options. | throwawaycuriou wrote: | You want the DIY edition. | SeanLuke wrote: | My bad! I thought I had selected it. | vmarsy wrote: | > The little modular port attachments seemed like a novelty at | first, but now it feels absurd that you'd buy a laptop with a | bunch of "hardcoded" ports that you can't ever change | | That's funny I remember laptops from the 2000s with those | swappable cards with different ports. | | One I distinctly remember because it was clever way to keep the | card ~3mm thin were the Ethernet cards, where the Ethernet port | was hidden inside and you'd press it to make it pop, similar to | handleless kitchen cabinets. | | I found a picture of those on Wikipedia: | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card The framework expansion | port seems to be a 2021 version of this, although I don't know | how standardized these new ones are. | | EDIT: From the framework's configuration page: | | > > Will you be adding additional Expansion Card types? | | > Yes! We'll be adding new Expansion Cards over time, and we're | also opening up the design to enable third parties and community | members to create their own versions. We'll be making these | available in the Framework Marketplace | | That's awesome, then in theory Ethernet expansion card could | exist (and use similar design to the PC cards above, where the | Ethernet port can be retractable) | fnord77 wrote: | those PCMCIA cards were very expensive. | godot wrote: | This got me curious, I feel like if any laptop could allowed for | a customized keyboard layout, it would be this one. | | I'm really yearning for a modern laptop with a keyboard layout | that doesn't seem to exist anymore in modern keyboards, something | like this [1], where there is a set of 6 nav keys at the upper | right corner and a set of full size arrow keys at the lower right | corner. If the Framework laptop has an option for a customized | keyboard with that layout, I'll literally instantly buy it | without even considering other specs. | | 1: https://koboguide.com/wp- | content/uploads/2021/01/1pDN_eHnop3... | xarope wrote: | I always felt the last good keyboard on a laptop was the one on | the thinkpad x220. I wish someone manufacturer would pick that | up. | kryptn wrote: | This was my first thought as well, I'd love to see an | ortholinear keyboard, and ideally one I could config with QMK. | Not sure how likely or easy either would be though. | dreyfan wrote: | > The third, a giant, heavy Carbon X1 | | A 2019 Carbon X1 (14") weighs 2.4lbs and the laptop they're | drooling over starts at 2.8lbs. | kvark wrote: | They must be thinking about X1 Extreme, I assume. I've been | using one, and it's giant. | dreyfan wrote: | okay, that'd make a lot more sense. The X1 Carbon was heavily | advertised as being thin and lightweight. | londgine wrote: | > Another caveat. I really miss my Thinkpad Trackpoint (the | little nub in the middle of the keyboard) and the three hardware | mouse buttons on the trackpad. I'm finding it really hard to | reliably hit the right region on my trackpad to get the left-, | center- and middle-buttons. | | Yes! This is one of the main reasons that I will stick with | Thinkpads. there are times that I have a mouse plugged in, but | still use the track point since I then don't have to move my | hand. I hope that they will add a track point to their laptop. | fnord77 wrote: | 400 nit screen is pretty dim these days | qudat wrote: | I'm trying to hold out for an AMD cpu on the framework but I | might not be able to wait much longer. | specialist wrote: | Ditto. | | My other deal breaker is the fit & finish of Mac's touchpad. | The qwan of it. | | If frame.work + Ubuntu come within striking distance, I'd buy. | yupper32 wrote: | I used to like being able to control everything about my machine. | I'd spend hours hacking away at making my Linux distro just the | way I'd like it, and fixing things when they broke, figuring out | drivers and oddities. This laptop seems to have the same culture. | | Now I just buy a MacBook and the concept of "things breaking" and | "having to fix my computer" just isn't a thing anymore. | Waterluvian wrote: | I don't really want an exciting laptop. And I don't want dongles | that plug INTO the laptop. I just want a more powerful 1st gen | unibody aluminum MacBook. That was the sweet spot for me. Good | ports. Removable battery. Removable memory. Removable disk. | vandahm wrote: | That was the best computer I ever owned. I used it every day | for seven years, long after it was obsolete. | davidy123 wrote: | I think Framework is great, I'll consider one when they offer a | good trackpoint, but Doctorow's description of Thinkpads is.... | weird. Like, a heavy X1 Carbon? Replaceable drives that don't go | to 2TB? Other generalizations that just don't make sense. | | I've been using Thinkpads for a couple decades now, in some ways | the quality has wavered (partially due to contemporary | concessions like compromises to be thinner) but they are still in | general the best mainstream systems to run Linux with end user | and field support. I've installed Ubuntu on every system, | especially in the last years it has "just worked," and Lenovo | even increasing offers Ubuntu pre-installed on some models. | throwawaysea wrote: | I would love to see Framework become successful and then also | enter the phone space. We need a highly polished but open phone | platform that isn't a walled garden under control of a tech | giant. | Sebb767 wrote: | I find it kind of strange that they don't have a dual-usb c card. | There seems to be more than enough space and putting two usb c | ports on a single card would allow to carry a wider variety of | cards without loosing out on standard ports. | | Is this possibly because of charging? It seems like such an easy | and obvious thing to do. | tombert wrote: | It feels like for years we were constantly told by these | corporations "it's impossible to have slim, tiny laptops _and_ | make them customizable ", and I guess at some level I believed | that, and just accepted that laptops with upgradable components | were a thing of the past. | | After seeing the framework, I'm more than a little annoyed that I | fell for this. They proved you can have a slim, clean laptop | that's somewhat modular, and more impressively, with something | like 1% of Apple's budget to do it. Had I known about it, I | probably wouldn't have paid an arm and a leg for a maxed-out | Macbook Pro a year ago. MacOS is nice, probably my favorite | consumer operating system currently available, but Apple's walled | garden approach is beyond annoying. | hyperpallium2 wrote: | According to Clayton Christensen, there's a cycle between | integrated and modular, as consumer perferences change. At | first performance is inadequate, but once it is good enough, | people base their buying decisions on other things like | customization. | | e.g. By this theory, android would become more popular than | iphone. | | EDIT yes, which happened, favouring the theory; despite iphone | still leading performance, due to integration even to cpu and | gpu. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> e.g. By this theory, android would become more popular | than iphone._ | | Well Android already is more popular than iphone worldwide. | gilbetron wrote: | Android is more popular, worldwide, than the iphone. It's | only in the US and Japan that the iphone is more popular, and | in the US, only by a bit. | azinman2 wrote: | > MacOS is nice, probably my favorite consumer operating system | currently available, but Apple's walled garden approach is | beyond annoying | | What's the walled garden on macOS? You can run anything you | want on the Mac. | vorpalhex wrote: | M1 macs no longer run unsigned code. Apps now check stapled | OCSP. There's now a permissions dance to do much of anything. | user-the-name wrote: | M1 Macs run self-signed code, though. You don't need a | developer account or Apple keys. | nomel wrote: | > There's now a permissions dance to do much of anything. | | This is why we don't have secure computing in 2021. Users | don't like the usability problems that come with security. | azinman2 wrote: | You can turn off both gatekeeper and SIP. | cogman10 wrote: | We've been told for years that "slim and tiny is what you | really want!" | | No, I don't want slim and tiny, I want to be able to replace | and upgrade parts. I want a battery I can swap out or RAM I can | replace. | | The problem is that being able to swap parts extends service | life of machines. Can't have that when they want you to just | buy a new one ever 3 years. | hinkley wrote: | Slim and tiny is what I wanted when thinkpads were smaller | and lighter than average. | | Once we hit five pounds and I had a bag that stopped caring | about smaller laptops? Well that was about the time that | desktops died and I could have used a workstation class | laptop with some more flexibility. | | But I opted for simple and put my energy somewhere else | instead. Seems a lot of people did. | notriddle wrote: | Also, laptops have built-in keyboards, by definition, which | means that it can never be thinner than the key travel | distance anyway. | hinkley wrote: | It's probably an important distinction between laptops | and tablets that a laptop is free to expand into three | dimensions when in use. | | Strictly speaking, the throw of the keyboard when in use | is not limited by the dimensions of the laptop when it's | not in use. There is air above and sometimes below that | the keys can occupy. Having the keys raise up when | opening the lid might be mechanically impractical, but | having the lid depress all of the keys is a matter of | ignoring key presses until the lid is opened past an | angle where it stops touching the top row of keys. | | Based on the shape of the smudges on my screen I'm pretty | sure that already happens to an extent. | NotPractical wrote: | As a student, I do _want_ my laptop to be slim and tiny, but | I was misled by Apple into thinking slim and tiny is only | possible if the laptop isn 't at all repairable. Might sell | my MacBook Pro for this thing. Though macOS is a guilty | pleasure I will miss :( | | Edit: Also the 16:10 aspect ratio :( | solarfair wrote: | For those who were curious like me, it seems that | Hackintosh support is spotty at best. | NotPractical wrote: | I did a little research on this, and it seems the main | (perhaps only) problem is that all mobo configurations | come with an 11th gen Intel CPU (with Iris Xe graphics). | Since the last Intel Macs used 10th gen chips with Iris | Plus graphics, and Apple isn't making any more Intel | macs, it's likely that macOS will never see Iris Xe | support. What a shame. While I do intend to switch to | Linux eventually, the ability to use macOS would have | made it more comfortable to switch from a MacBook. | Perhaps if they release AMD mobos in the future, it will | become possible. | fartcannon wrote: | You won't miss it after a few months in Linux's diverse | desktop experience ecosystem. | selectodude wrote: | "Diverse" is certainly one way to put it. | NotPractical wrote: | I reserved a Steam Deck because I wanted to support | Valve's efforts to expand support for Windows games (and | by extension, apps) to Linux through their open source | Proton project. I think the future of Linux is looking | very bright. | akudha wrote: | _I guess at some level I believed that_ | | Why should we believe anything any for-profit company says, | without verifying (whenever possible)? Drug companies lie all | the time, about having to price their drugs absurdly high. | Facebook lies all the time about not being able to fact check, | without even attempting to try seriously. And on and on. | | The insane thing is not that companies lie. It is that the | general public has either given up or duped into thinking these | companies cannot possible lie. We have created an economic | system where profit trumps everything else. | leetcrew wrote: | I'm impressed that they have managed to take this product to | market, and I'm glad that people who value modularity will | finally have a viable option. | | at the same time, I personally don't see what all the fuss is | about. you can upgrade both DIMMs, which is cool, but not | exactly unheard of these days (I guess it's getting there in an | ultraportable?). you're still stuck with DDR4, which is almost | EOL, and the max capacity it entails. it's neat that you can | customize your IO options, but how many people are going to do | that more than once? being constrained by the chipset, it's not | like you're going to be able to "upgrade" your IO in the | future. | | the most likely parts of a laptop to fail are the SSD and the | battery, both of which are fairly easy to replace on almost all | laptops. past that, you aren't really gaining that much when | you're locked into whatever CPU/chipset was current when you | bought the laptop. | FredFS456 wrote: | Newer laptops are starting to come with soldered SSDs. | Macbooks have had non-standard or soldered SSDs for the past | 5+ years. | | Framework is also proactively making documentation, | schematics, etc etc available for repair shops. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> Newer laptops are starting to come with soldered SSDs_ | | Which newer laptops? Other than Macs and crappy $199 | Walmart grade tablet-chromebook thingamajigs, I don't know | any mainstream PC laptop that does that (thankfully). | | Even super light and super slim laptops still have | replaceable storage. Even niche Pocket Computers like the | GPD and Valve Steam Deck still have replaceable SSDs. | | So I don't buy your statement. | ixwt wrote: | If Macs are doing it, others are soon to follow. Apple | has been a trend setter for years. They were belittled | for getting rid of the 3.5mm jack, only for flag ship | phones to begin doing so. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | Soon when? Apple has been doing it for 5 years now and | the rest of the industry hasn't even started. | | The truth is, unlike with RAM, it's still cheaper for the | other laptop manufacturers to have a single motherboard | SKU which they can later plug whatever cheap COTS SSDs | they can get from various sources rather than waste | effort tayloring a motherboard for a specific SSD | controller, specific DRAM cache chips and specific Flash | chips, as that gives them way less flexibility in | component sourcing during production lifecycle and more | expense in board design resulting in more expensive | products with no extra margins for them. | | Apple can do this economically as they have a very | tightly controlled supply chain with high volumes and due | to the little variation in SKUs so they can just use the | same SSD controller on all their products and just change | the amount of Flash chips soldered on the board and call | it a day. | NotPractical wrote: | MacBooks also have glued in batteries. | jbm wrote: | > SSD and the battery | | I have a MacBook Pro w/ Retina Display from Mid-2012. It | cannot be fixed for a reasonable price, despite it being | still mostly perfect for my daughter's school computing. | | This computer definitely interests me (as someone who moved | back to Ubuntu / Regolith this year) | mickotron wrote: | No, you can upgrade the entire main board (with CPU) in | future. And the "old" main board can function as a standalone | PC outside the chassis. | OJFord wrote: | > you're locked [sic] into whatever CPU/chipset was current | when you bought the laptop. | | Which you can replace/upgrade too. | leetcrew wrote: | we'll have to wait and see whether this actually happens, | but if so, that would certainly invalidate my biggest | criticism. if they could pull it off on a 14"-15.6" chassis | with a discrete gpu, they would probably get my money. | | also, pretty sure that is correct english, why the [sic]? | OJFord wrote: | I can't find where to buy one, but they already have a | guide for replacing the 'mainboard' (CPU soldered on) - h | ttps://guides.frame.work/Guide/Mainboard+Replacement+Guid | e/.... | | > also, pretty sure that is correct english, why the | [sic]? | | Perfectly correct English yes - I just meant that I was | disagreeing with that, you're _not_ locked to it. (I don | 't think it's an _incorrect_ use of it, but thinking | about it it 's not a common one - can just quote and say | 'that's not right' after all - so I don't know I | bothered, sorry.) | leetcrew wrote: | > Perfectly correct English yes - I just meant that I was | disagreeing with that, you're not locked to it. | | fair enough :) | | and I saw that guide too. my skepticism is regarding what | happens when the next generation (or an AMD variant) | arrives. will the new mainboards be drop-in replacements | for the old? if nothing else, this would make it | difficult to radically change the cooling solution, which | could be a big problem for the dGPU machine I'd like to | see. | | maybe my initial comment was too harsh. they have | delivered a fully user-repairable machine, which is a | great thing. but what I want is a fully _upgradable_ | machine, in the sense of a DIY desktop build. they have | made some vague promises around the latter, but I 'll | reserve my judgement until I see it actually happen. | sfteus wrote: | IMO, the selling point isn't that you can carry around the | ports you might potentially use and swap them out whenever | you need them, it's that you can buy a machine that's | tailored to your setup and peripherals. | | I bought a laptop at the beginning of 2020 after the GPU on | my old one fried. What I wanted was something with a Cat6 and | DisplayPort built in for when I'm in my office, and multiple | USB-A ports for the peripherals I use | (mouse/keyboard/mic/speakers). I had to settle for one with a | single extra USB-C port, an additional USB-C hub to get | enough USB-A ports and a Cat6, and an adaptor for the built- | in HDMI port to hook up to the DisplayPort on my monitor, | which set me back a total of like $100 on top of the cost of | the laptop itself. The laptop also has a headset jack and | large card reader that I have yet to use, so that's just | wasted space that could have potentially been something I | would have actually used. | donmcronald wrote: | > After seeing the framework, I'm more than a little annoyed | that I fell for this. | | Me too. An I'm annoyed I fell for the lie that board level | repair is impossible. What the manufacturers really should be | saying is "it's impossible _for us_ " because it's obviously | possible for 3rd parties to do it and make a business out of | it. | | I'm willing to pay +$100 for something that's assembled with | screws instead of glues. | xondono wrote: | > we were constantly told by these corporations "it's | impossible to have slim, tiny laptops and make them | customizable" | | Because it's true. The thing is "power users" and "regular | users" look at that tradeoff differently. The bad part of | economies of scale is that they reward conformity (you can pick | your model T in any color, as long as that color is black). | | The framework would a hard time competing in the general laptop | market, but luckily for them, they don't have to. There's a | niche for specialized products and they are taking advantage. | | I've looking at their laptops since they announced, I'm just | hoping they can release a Ryzen one, and then I'll be on the | fence between theirs and whatever Apple has to show for a ARM | pro laptop (14"-15"). | jhickok wrote: | >I've looking at their laptops since they announced, I'm just | hoping they can release a Ryzen one, and then I'll be on the | fence between theirs and whatever Apple has to show for a ARM | pro laptop (14"-15"). | | I'm in the same boat. While I in principle would love to | invest in a powerful AMD laptop with tons of upgradeability | with decent Linux support, Apple's next offerings which may | give upgraded displays, my favorite trackpads, impressive | power and ~20 hours of battery life is very hard to ignore. | NotPractical wrote: | The only reason these two groups look at it differently is | because people in the "regular users" group don't know how | bad things are, and how good things could be. What makes you | think the Framework would have a hard time competing in the | general laptop market? The baseline, preassembled model | starts at $1000 and comes with Windows 10 Home. It has a | quad-core i5, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB storage, a nice 2256x1504 | display, and it's thin and light (1.3kg, 11.7" x 9" x 0.6"). | Compare that to your other thin and light options at this | pricepoint: | | XPS 13: $1020 | | * i5 | | * 8 GB RAM | | * 256 GB storage | | * 1920 x 1200 display | | * 1.2 kg, 11.6" x 7.8" x 0.6" | | MacBook Pro: $1300 | | * M1 | | * 8 GB RAM | | * 256 GB storage | | * 2560 x 1600 display | | * 1.4kg, 12" x 8.7" x 0.6" | | This isn't even accounting for _repairability_ as a feature. | Consumers don 't care about that as it stands, because they | don't know they should. But once they realize, it will become | a selling point, too. | adolph wrote: | To be fair to "these corporations," the modules available for | the Framework are basically built-in USB-C dongles. If you | really hate the look of dongles, then thats great. If you only | use one thing, like HDMI, then you don't have to cart around a | bunch of modules as if they are dongles. | | The three internal upgrad-ables are nice if you think that | things will drastically change in RAM, SSD, or Wifi before the | CPU, mainboard or faster connections to faster RAM and SSD make | the effect of said upgrad-ables to be gilding a turd. Otherwise | periodically buy the midrange storage and allow the secondary | market to absorb your environmental guilt. | Decabytes wrote: | I hope this changes the way that people think about hardware | now that Framework has proved that we can have this. Let's just | hope they scale | xvector wrote: | The Framework has half the battery life of similarly sized | alternatives. No one was lying to you. | [deleted] | leetcrew wrote: | 55 Wh is a pretty good size for the form factor. looks like | it's suffering from a comparison against competitors with | lower resolution screens. | 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: | As far as I can tell, this laptop has a 55 Wh battery. A | macbook pro of the same size (13in) has a 58 Wh battery and | the dell XPS 13 has a 52 Wh battery. What am I missing? | hinkley wrote: | Capacity isn't the only metric for batteries. The faster | you draw down the more power converts to heat. Different | battery chemistry changes that a bit, but also aggressive | power management to flatten (and lower) the curve matters a | great deal. | | Apple nailed that during the same generation they | introduced the unreplaceable battery. Better density, less | packaging, and improved power management virtually doubled | the run time on that laptop versus the previous. That was a | huge deal at the time. | | Has everyone else caught up? | FredFS456 wrote: | Could you provide some sources to back up that claim? My | first choice for laptop reviews | (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework- | Laptop-13-5-Review-I...) did not show that to be the case | xvector wrote: | https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/07/frameworks-new- | light... Battery test section | rozap wrote: | As battery tech gets better, you can replace it. And the | glued-in battery in the macbook pro won't be 100% capacity | after a bunch of charge/discharges. | | It's a compromise in the short term maybe, but long term it's | so much nicer. | NullPrefix wrote: | >battery in the macbook pro won't be 100% capacity after a | bunch of charge/discharges | | You're supposed to replace the macbook by then. | paxys wrote: | That's the entire point of framework. Why should I have | to replace my macbook when most of it runs perfect except | for one part? | xvector wrote: | But you don't have to replace the MacBook, you can just | replace the battery. | paxys wrote: | On newer Macbooks the battery is literally glued in. An | Apple authorized repair center is going to charge you | $200+ for a replacement. | xvector wrote: | Wow, didn't know this! | NullPrefix wrote: | My initial cynical point still stands. The thing is a | status symbol, a display of wealth for lower to mid | class, just buy a new one. | adolph wrote: | I've replaced a glued in MacBook Pro battery. It isn't a | big deal and very similar to the Framework, except the | Framework has mechanical connections (screws and tabs). The | battery replacement kit came with everything needed. It | didn't come with newly additional capacity because the | underlying changes in battery chemistry aren't there. The | improvements in battery life mostly come from CPUs with | lower TDP. | | https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/8 | 5... | | https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Dis | p... | CivBase wrote: | Can I get a citation for that? | | The only laptop for which that seems to be true is the | MacBook, but no x86 laptop will come close to that. From what | I've seen the Framework has a mostly uninteresting battery | life, outperforming some likely competitors (like Dell's XPS | 13 and MS's Surface Laptop) and outperformed by others (like | HP's ProBook x360 and ASUS's Zenbook 13). | jhickok wrote: | Here it states that it has a worse performing battery than | the XPS: | https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/07/frameworks-new- | light... | | Under the final section: | | >>The ugly Only 61 percent the battery | life of a similarly configured XPS 13 | CivBase wrote: | Interesting. Tom's Guide says pretty much the exact | opposite, with the XPS coming in at roughly 78% the | battery life of the Framework. | | > In our battery test, which sets the laptop's screen | brightness to 150 nits and tasks it with endlessly | browsing the web via Wi-Fi, the Framework lasted 10 hours | and 17 minutes. That's better than the Dell XPS 13 (7:59) | | https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/framework-laptop- | review-th... | | Maybe the XPS 13 configuration was different? Or maybe | the tests were different in nature? Ars used PCMark 10, | which is a standard benchmark that Dell could have | specifically optimized for. | | The Ars review does have this to say later on: | | > The Framework also manages surprisingly high battery | life under Ubuntu--in our semi-scientific video playback | test, Framework runs neck and neck with the outstanding | Acer Swift 3 at just over five hours, with everything | else (including the XPS 13, which in this case is | hampered by a 4k touchscreen display) trailing well | behind. | lucb1e wrote: | From comparative tests or from vendor specs? (Genuine | question, I do not know which you are referring to) | xvector wrote: | https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/07/frameworks-new- | light... | | Scroll down to the battery section | jalada wrote: | For anyone who tl;dr: | | > Only 61 percent the battery life of a similarly | configured XPS 13 | donmcronald wrote: | > We suspect the Framework's high-brightness, high- | resolution display is the culprit for its relatively poor | battery life--the XPS 13 at the top of the chart is a | 1080p non-touch model, as is the Acer Swift below it. | | And the XPS has an i7-1065G7 [1] vs the Framework with an | i7-1185G7 [2]. So the Framework has a better screen and a | better CPU. I'm not sure I agree with running that | benchmark without other data alongside it like a score or | the average clock rate. | | For example, I put a 2nd battery in a ThinkPad once and | it had the effect of locking the CPU clock to <1GHz. The | battery was predicted to last _much_ longer than normal, | but it was useless as a computer. | | 1. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/1 | 96597/... | | 2. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/2 | 08664/... | tshaddox wrote: | Do you actually have any example of a corporation that makes | laptops saying that it's impossible to have slim laptops that | are customizable? I would be very surprised if this ever | happened, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. | squeaky-clean wrote: | I can't find a quote from Apple, but here's a 2012 article by | Kyle Weins (iFixit CEO) basically claiming that's the reason | | https://www.wired.com/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa/ | zepto wrote: | > Kyle Weins (iFixit CEO) basically claiming that's the | reason | | I.e. The last person who can be trusted to report on | Apple's motivations. | | It's an absurd explanation. Some obvious other factors are: | | 1. The idea that a modular chassis is _less robust_ over | time. Not that it can't be made, but that if you make | millions of them, vastly more of them will have problems | because of all the connectors etc. | | We don't have any data on the framework. Perhaps they'll | prove this to be a misplaced fear, but it's also possible | that framework laptops _in aggregate_ will _need_ more | repairs because of the extra complexity. | | 2. Limited hardware profiles are easier to support with | software. If users can create limitless combinations, it | becomes much harder to test. This isn't an issue for the | typical Linux user who can do their own homework and fix | their own issues, but it's a deal breaker for someone who | just wants to buy a computer and get work done. | webmobdev wrote: | Many companies do heavily promote the thinness of their | device on launch. How many of them also say that it is thin | _and_ customizable? (And customisable doesn 't mean choosing | between 8 gb of soldered ram vs 16 gb of soldered ram). | There's your answer. | kreeben wrote: | Do you have an example of a corporation that makes laptops | that says it's possible? | tombert wrote: | You know, I can't think of a concrete example of that, when | pressed, so it is possible this was just something repeated | to me by coworkers and friends doing Apple apologia, and I | just treated it as a truth. A quick Google doesn't appear to | show Apple or any other corporation saying it, so I'll take | the L on it. | | I think my overall point still stands. I still find it | irritating that, until very recently, the only way to get a | nice, slim laptop was to accept that everything is hard-wired | in. Framework proved that that's not correct. | sneak wrote: | FWIW, I also remember this claim being made, but yes, it | may have just been Apple apologists in comments, or perhaps | Apple wrt the iPhone battery, ages ago. | powerwaif wrote: | You don't need a direct quote proving it. They just do it. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Your experience matches my own. I haven't heard it from a | company but there are definitely Apple zealots/shills who | would say that in threads about right to repair. | tombert wrote: | Yeah, sort of this strange Mandela effect thing I guess; | I have a distinct memory of reading an official statement | with Apple or Samsung claiming that that was the reason, | but that statement does not appear to exist, and it seems | like the most likely reason is because my brain just | incorrectly extrapolated that memory from stuff non- | Apple-non-Samsung folks were saying. | imglorp wrote: | iFixit has repairability scores for products. Eg this Surface | gets a 1 out of 10 because MS used adhesives among other | problems. They traded off repairability for thermal, | rigidity, and mechanical concerns. | | https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Go+Teardow. | .. | jeffbee wrote: | The Framework is larger and weighs more than contemporary | machines that have larger displays (e.g. ThinkPad X1 Carbon 9th | generation), and it has worse performance and shorter battery | life because soldered-in RAM isn't some kind of scam, it's | _actually much better_. | | In short, it was not a lie that you get smaller, lighter, and | better laptops with integration. You do, in fact, get all of | those things. | CoolGuySteve wrote: | The Framework laptop is 1mm thicker and 200 grams heavier | than the 9th gen Carbon. We've gone long past the point of | diminishing returns when it comes to size/weight vs | repairability trade offs. | jeffbee wrote: | 200g is 15%. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | It is, however, I'm lucky enough to be in good health | that carrying 200g extra in my backpack has no negative | implications vs the added benefits. | [deleted] | HideousKojima wrote: | But only about the weight of a box of teabags extra: | https://weightofstuff.com/10-household-items-that-weigh- | abou... | tombert wrote: | Is that a property of the components being soldered in, or | just a property of the fact that Framework cannot get access | to the highest quality components on the market? | | Genuine question, I know very little about electrical | components. | leetcrew wrote: | the mounting hardware needed for replaceable dimms | inherently takes more space on and above the board. the | solder approach also gives more flexibility for board | layout, since you don't have to reserve space for the exact | size and shape of a standard module. see a teardown of the | new blade 14 to see how this can be beneficial. | | there is an inherent tradeoff between size, battery life, | and modularity. if you can make a modular laptop with good | specs and battery life, a competitor will always be able to | offer the same thing in a smaller chassis or with a bigger | battery. | babypuncher wrote: | With RAM, the problem is more that high capacity LPDDR4 | modules simply aren't available on SODIMMs. | | However this is only because manufacturers don't make them. | If Apple asked Micron or Samsung for them, I'm sure it | would happen. | | A better argument for non-replaceable RAM can be found in | the Apple Silicon chips. Building the memory into the SoC | provides very tangible performance and efficiency benefits. | ixwt wrote: | >With RAM, the problem is more that high capacity LPDDR4 | modules simply aren't available on SODIMMs. | | And I don't think they ever will be. From the little bit | that I've read, the higher voltage that SODIMMs have to | use has to do with noise in transmission. LPDDR4s have | been connection through the direct solder, so are able to | use lower voltages. | jeffbee wrote: | They have to use DDR4-3200 to be able to put the RAM on a | stick. Integrated systems can use LPDDR4x-4267. You can't | put that on a stick. It's a trade-off. It turns out it | takes extra power to drive high-speed signals across long | traces with connectors. | jagger27 wrote: | I thought the power advantage mostly came from the total | bus being half as wide (32-bit LPDDR4X versus 64-bit | DDR4). | | Do you have a reference for why it can't be put on a | removable module? | jeffbee wrote: | I'm fairly sure the power advantage comes from VDDQ being | much lower: .6V for LPDDR4x and 1.2V for DDR4. LPDDR4x is | or at least can be 64 bits wide, just like DDR4. | tombert wrote: | That's fair enough. I guess I just hope that we figure | out a way to overcome this I suppose. | throwawaycuriou wrote: | What performance/cost impact are we talking about? | jeffbee wrote: | Judging by reviews, the Framework loses 10% of CPU+GPU | performance versus reference designs. That could be due | to their memory subsystem or thermal design, or both. Ars | Technica said the battery life was "mediocre" but I would | have gone with "terrible". Compared to the Dell XPS 13 | the Framework has only 60% the life. | 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: | It seems more likely that tech has advanced enough for this, | rather than there being some greedy phenomenon where it just so | happened that nobody thought to do better before framework. | 5faulker wrote: | This looks refreshing. Definitely one of the most interesting | find of the year. | soperj wrote: | I don't even care about slim. Light yes. Slim doesn't really do | a whole lot for me past a certain point (which for me was a | decade ago). Being able to replace parts is way more important. | squarefoot wrote: | Besides planned obsolescence and other malicious intentions, | there are also economies of scale to consider: if making a non | modular/repairable laptop cost to a producer just one less | buck, that's a lot of money when multiplied by the huge number | they sell. | | That said, I love the concept and plan to buy one next year, | when they hopefully will have means to sell in the EU without | outrageous shipping+import duties. | stakkur wrote: | I love the Framework idea, and believe in repairability. But | I'll be interested to see what Framework does when they have | the (enviable) challenge of manufacturing, distributing, and | supporting half a billion of them. | riedel wrote: | Unfortunately currently framework says it is impossible to have | a slim, tiny , customizable laptop with a trackpoint option | (due to the keyboard height). Hopefully we will overcome this | one too and I would be all in... | wpietri wrote: | This is the barrier for me too. I'm writing this on a 4-year- | old Thinkpad. (The "25th anniversary edition", which has my | favorite keyboard.) If somebody figures that out, I'm happy | to switch, as my feelings on the Thinkpad line are the same | as Doctorow's: formerly great, now sadly declining. | xondono wrote: | I've never understood the trackpoint use case, the | (admittedly few) computers I've had with it, I just felt it a | nuisance in the middle of the keyboard. | riedel wrote: | To the same goes for the trackpad for me. I am always | disabling them to avoid accidental contact. I guess this is | why we need more customizable devices. | topspin wrote: | Linus (the "tech tips" one) said something that sticks in my | mind: "The only reason other companies can't do this - and | Framework proved it - is because they don't care." | hamilyon2 wrote: | Now we are being told the same about phones | epistasis wrote: | Well, the other reason is that customers don't care either. I | certainly don't. The last desktop build I made 5 years ago | hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time. | jonshariat wrote: | I wouldn't be interested in fixing myself but if I know | that I can have my laptop repaired or upgraded for cheap, | that would be amazing. | christophilus wrote: | My laptop has a single thunderbolt port. I use it for my 5k | monitor. If that port goes, I need to get a new laptop. | (That new laptop will be the Framework laptop, if they | offer a 15" hi-DPI option.) | | If my laptop was a Framework laptop, I'd just need to buy a | pretty inexpensive new port and swap it out. It's a pretty | big deal, in my opinion. | simion314 wrote: | >The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a | single component changed in that entire tim | | I upgraded my monitor and changed 2 keyboards(I am hard on | them) with a laptop if you fuck your keyboard you probably | have to use an external one or hope that replacing your | laptop keyboard is cheap enough and you can find a spare. | akiselev wrote: | _> The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn 't had a | single component changed in that entire time._ | | My last desktop build is still going strong _nine years_ | later. Swapped out a broken motherboard, upgraded to OCed | DDR3, and stuck in a PCIe card for NVMe: good as new. | KptMarchewa wrote: | Graphics card I bought 5 years ago - 1060 6GB - is | currently worth pretty much the same as it was then, | despite the fact that it's used. | sixothree wrote: | I am very happy for you to have such good luck. | Grimm1 wrote: | Well no, you and people like you don't, but as evidenced by | all the people buying this there is a segment of the market | that clearly does. | caeril wrote: | > I certainly don't. | | Reminder that Apple isn't the problem. Their customers are. | I know movie quotes are seriously lowbrow for this | audience, but somewhat relevant here, and correct: | | "That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look | around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, | carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to | save. But until we do, these people are still a part of | that system and that makes them our enemy." | | Not to Godwin the thread, but this absurd apologia for | anti-freedom products from the standpoint of convenience | and apathy reminds me of the old quip about Hitler making | the trains run on time. | | I hope a decade from now you love the soul-crushing Snow | Crash-esque dystopia your choices will have created, | because you will have absolutely no moral authority to | complain about it. | leppr wrote: | The problem is that for most people there are no clear | incentives to making the "good" choices in those matters, | while there are many incentives to make the "bad" choice, | like gaining an edge in the local competitive market by | virtue of a more efficient tool. Prototypical tragedy of | the commons. | [deleted] | bserge wrote: | I've only had laptops for over a decade. And I had system | board failures. | | Honestly, I'd rage if I had to throw it out together with | the perfectly good CPU, GPU/VRAM and maybe half the RAM and | pay for a used replacement board with all of those | integrated. | | Or what, buy a rework station and risk damaging them or | having them work improperly due to shit soldering skills? | | I guess I could learn to fix the board itself. But that's | pretty hard, there are no schematics, no components for | most laptops, failures are not evident and one component | can lead to a cascade of failures across the board. A used | board was $100. Now they're ~$500 because there's a CPU and | GPU there. | | My next computer will be a desktop in a handcrafted case | (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS _between_ the | PSU and components). | bertjk wrote: | > (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between | the PSU and components) | | This should totally be a thing. I wish it was a thing. It | doesn't even have to provide hours of runtime, just needs | to be enough to handle the occasional stupid California | brownout. | jhickok wrote: | Out of curiosity, wouldn't a conventional consumer UPS | take care of that? | callmejoe wrote: | yeah. but it's more efficient to have the battery be on | the output side of a PSU, since that's gonna be DC. | bserge wrote: | Yeah, it is the most efficient way to power everything | (no conversion losses). 30 minutes is enough tbh. | | The battery will fit in an empty PSU case, I just need | some custom cables and connectors for the passthrough, my | biggest problem is charging and switchover. Looks like I | will need a custom board for that. I thought it'd be | easier heh | y4mi wrote: | Why handcrafted instead of the framework laptop? Are you | just itching to do that project, or is there some other | issue you had with getting the laptop from them? | bserge wrote: | It's more future proof. And performance is unmatched. | Handcrafted because I want the smallest, lightest | microATX case. Should I share the design? I have it ready | in SolidWorks. | | I will still need a laptop away from home and/or as a | portable display, that'll be one of my old 17 inchers or | the cheapest one I can get (Haswell gen lol). | topspin wrote: | "customers don't care either" | | People care about Right To Repair; that's why the FTC has | been pressured into action recently on the matter (not that | I entertain any hope that that bunch of bought-and-paid-for | bureaucrats will actually achieve anything.) Framework has | blown a vast hole through the false arguments offered in | opposition. One must simply care. That's all it takes. | Every manufacturer that has opposed RTR has the means and | talent to do at least as well has Framework has done, and | probably better. They just don't care. | | Thankfully the vestigial remains of our free market are | sufficient to run the experiment. | epistasis wrote: | Do customers care though? Perhaps customer advocates do. | And that's probably the best place for it, since it's | such a niche and wonky idea. | | And that's why "free markets" will never solve this. (And | that's whether the "free" in free markets means freedom | from regulations, or freedom for people to participate in | the market). | | IMHO this is why the European system of strong regulatory | bodies tends to work better than the US system of "wait | for a customer to experience damages, then recoup through | the courts, and then the companies learn their lesson." | topspin wrote: | And yet here we are; despite the 446e6 strong market | place the EU supposedly represents their regulatory power | has not delivered what we see here. No, instead we have | an American company motivated by only the belief that | their product will succeed in the market kicking open the | door. | epistasis wrote: | Well the question is do you want every laptop to have the | customizability of Framework's laptops, or should there | instead be a minimum bar set for warranty/repairability? | I think the second is probably what's needed, and the EU | has been better both at imposing standards and ensuring | warranties and repairability. | robertlagrant wrote: | The minimum bar is a theoretical idea. The reality is yet | more audits and auditors and internal regulatory staff to | produce more documentation that "proves" compliance. It's | a huge weight, not lightly welcomed. | lliamander wrote: | Except that regulatory burdens are the kinds of barriers | to entry that prevent a company like Framework from | existing in the first place. | | That just leaves you with entrenched companies doing the | bare minimum for compliance, and lobbying for loopholes | to protect their own market positions. | NotPractical wrote: | Here in the U.S. any kind of basic regulation == | communism, but I when I imagine "right to repair", I | imagine a free market where Apple is allowed to sell | glued-in batteries and Framework is allowed to sell | repairable products, but all companies must publish the | private internal repair documentation they already have | and sell the replacement parts they already have, _if | available_. Apple may legitimately not be able to sell | replacement batteries, if even Apple themselves can 't | replace them, but at least there's transparency for the | consumer. Eventually I imagine Apple could no longer get | away with this practice, not because they are legally | forbidden, but because people would become aware of it. | dwaite wrote: | If we increase the warranty requirements for companies, | the repairability will necessarily increase as well. | | However, people do keep in mind this still may not result | in better third-party repairability - it may be things | like easier reclaiming of components off of boards by the | manufacturer to put into refurbished swap-out units. | topspin wrote: | The answer is I want a competitive market filled with | options that range from a completely sealed, disposable | monoliths to machines like this Framework product where | components are easily replaced and/or upgraded by me or | any qualified or unqualified person I choose. And I want | that _without_ the easily circumvented bureaucratic | hellscape of lobbyists and captured regulators | incestuously welding down the status quo in perpetuity. | Dracophoenix wrote: | Have you considered that the current landscape is a | product of a competitive market? Historically laptops | were never as repairable as desktops. Most parts of those | bulky 1990s Powerbooks, Latitudes, and Compaqs were hard | to access due to proprietary screws. Every laptop | manufacturer had non-standard components and non-standard | ports and those components and ports would evolve every 6 | months. If you wanted replacement parts and you weren't a | corporate repair shop, you were shit out luck before Ebay | existed. The adhesive-sealed laptop that you resent is a | product of the standardization that corporations and | suppliers eventually sought after going through the Wild | West phase of the mass market PC. | | A competitive market isn't a marry-go-round where every | idea gets its turn under the sun for all eternity. It's | an arena where some rise and many perish. In the '90s and | '00s, many ideas fell through, many companies collapsed, | and many technologies become outmoded. What has come out | of that is the sealed computer of today. | JoshTriplett wrote: | Exactly. And in particular, I want companies showing the | absolute limit of what's possible if you don't worry | about modularity, and other companies like Framework | showing how much of that they can provide while _also_ | using modular components. That 's two different | directions of innovation that both need pushing, as | useful competitive forces that people care about. | Dracophoenix wrote: | Ideally I would agree with you, but reality demonstrates | that markets tend to converge on one standard rather than | let two coexist. CISC vs RISC, Firewire vs USB, Floppy vs | Zip, IrDA vs Bluetooth, etc. Now it's modular vs | integrated. | JoshTriplett wrote: | That happens with technologies where there's a strong | benefit to standardization. Standardizing on USB and | Bluetooth means your devices can interoperate. | | There's already no "standard" laptop design, just a set | of desirable properties people want. And there's already | no push to converge; there are many laptop vendors. | There's plenty of room for a new vendor with different | priorities (like modularity); there's _more_ room for | such a vendor than there is for one more undifferentiated | vendor. | jklinger410 wrote: | "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have | said faster horses." - Henry Ford | scns wrote: | Build it and they will come. | kaibee wrote: | > and then the companies learn their lesson. | | * analysts consider whether the cost > profit, if not | then continue doing the same thing as before. | vlunkr wrote: | > Do customers care though? | | Maybe they think they don't until one piece of their MBP | fails and they have to pay Apple to replace 90% of their | laptop. | someguydave wrote: | All those companies want to hold out for the idea that | they can monopolize some corner of the industry - none of | them want to be turned into purveyors of commodity | products in the face of heavy competition. But the future | likely lies down that path. | CivBase wrote: | The only a tiny minority of people probably care about the | upgradability of their laptop. Many many more probably care | about the _repairability_ of their laptop, though. | AlexandrB wrote: | I think you're right. Many people "care" about | repairability in the market sense of getting pissed off | that a keyboard replacement costs >$500 for some reason. | The right kind of marketing could bring them onboard. | hkt wrote: | A friend of mine has a fairphone and broke its screen while | he was staying with me. The fairphone is quite similar | insofar as it is designed to be long lived and user | serviceable. He ordered a screen, next day delivery, and | changed it himself for about PS60. | | Users care! | [deleted] | devwastaken wrote: | You will care next time you have to build one. | 1MachineElf wrote: | In an alternate universe where the Framework concept was | commonplace, you might say the same thing about a laptop | built 5 years ago. | | Framework means you can custom-build it, just like your | desktop. Reparability aside, that alone is a milestone. | squeaky-clean wrote: | But imagine if your next desktop build required you to also | throw away your SSD, monitor, keyboard, mouse, and | speakers. You can also re-use a case in future builds, and | re-use a high quality PSU in future builds. | | I also don't really care to replace individual components | in my systems, but being able to upgrade laptop hardware | without throwing away the chasis and storage seems pretty | nice to me. | epistasis wrote: | My next desktop build will require entirely new parts, | and the prior build will be demoted to other uses, or | given to someone else who has a better use for it. As a | whole unit, it still has utility. If I scavenge an | essential piece, all the rest go to waste. | | If it were a big energy hog (it's not), then it may make | sense to put it out to pasture and scavenge the parts for | others. | | The exception is my keyboard, is like my toothbrush, if | toothbrushes could last for two decades. That I will keep | and move to the new computer, as keyboard technology is | not advancing. | | For laptops, I see even less utility for upgrades than | for a desktop, but perhaps that's just me. | alpaca128 wrote: | Easy upgrades mean easy repair. The opposite is also | true. | | You can move your keyboard to a new computer because you | are able to detach it without melting half the device | with a heat gun. With laptops it's not that easy. When | the MacBook keyboards broke all the time a few years ago, | a keyboard replacement meant also replacing the speakers, | battery and touchpad. Not for any technical reason, but | because Apple doesn't like screws. The MS Surface Pro and | Surface Laptop couldn't be repaired by anyone, not even | MS themselves - if a single $20-30 part fails you have to | spend $1000 again. Doesn't sound like a great deal if you | ask me. | | You might not need or want upgrades and maybe you're | lucky and nothing ever breaks. But having the choice only | comes with upsides. | pessimizer wrote: | Whereas any dating of when my last desktop build was would | be deceptive because they're replaced piece by piece. The | closest occasion I can give is when I went from one to two | desktops, but even then half the guts of the one I had | before went into the new case, and were replaced in the old | case with new purchases. | | I mean, I've met people that only wear underwear once or | twice before throwing it away, too, but I wouldn't say | that's normal. People would generally rather replace a | drive, processor, ram, or screen than spend 10x as much on | an entirely new system. They don't because the | manufacturers make that option difficult or impossible. | | People didn't love VCR/TV combos, and people don't love | this. Manufacturers love this. | GordonS wrote: | It's not just about upgrading components, but also about | having more choice during initial specification. It's a | real _PITA_ trying to find laptops that have almost | everything you want, and inevitably you need to make | multiple compromises. | | And it's also about replacing broken components without | having to ditch the whole laptop. | | I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially | shake up the whole industry! | CoolGuySteve wrote: | Yes, this exactly. For the past year I've been trying to | buy a Ryzen 5800u with at least 32GB of RAM and it has | been fucking impossible. | | As soon as Framework releases an AMD model I'm on board. | kaladin-jasnah wrote: | Second this. If they do release an AMD model, that (or | maybe a ThinkPad) will be my next laptop. | zepto wrote: | > I'm really excited about how Framework could | potentially shake up the whole industry! | | It won't. The industry used to be like that back in the | day before Apple proved that most people don't want too | many choices. | alpaca128 wrote: | > Apple proved that most people don't want too many | choices | | They proved that taking away choices is still better than | the shitshow their competitors are running. | | Apple proved that a few simple product names are less | confusing than literally 6 different "brands" of laptops | from a single company. That doesn't mean people don't | want choices though, they just don't want to feel like | they're getting trolled by badly designed websites | throwing _all_ the possible laptop configurations in | their face. Even if you know what the specs mean it still | feels like a major waste of time to try and compare the | 20 devices on the screen. I want to configure every | detail of my laptop, not 2 details on one of 200 laptops. | | Apple also proved that making devices difficult to | upgrade, maintain and repair is harmful for everything | and everyone other than Apple. | zepto wrote: | > I want to configure every detail of my laptop | | Almost nobody wants that, but the good news is that | enough people do that framework exists. | Kiro wrote: | I have choice paralysis just from Air vs Pro (if there | was only one model I would have bought the M1 a long time | ago) so I think you're right. | markkanof wrote: | I'm not pushing back too hard on this idea, because in | general you are likely right about almost anything, that | most people don't care that much. However, I'm not sure | that Apple really proved that most people don't want too | many choices. The choice to buy an Apple computer could | be for any number of reasons. Like for example, I really | like macOS and the integration between my iPhone and my | MacBook for things like iMessage. Anytime I've bought an | Apple computer it's felt like I have to compromise on the | hardware options, but I still do it because I like other | aspects of the overall ecosystem. | dwaite wrote: | I don't have market analytics, only single cases, but | nobody who has ever asked me for help about a computer | has wanted to know what the difference is between this | 'Intel' part vs 'Celeron' part vs 'AMD', carried on to | graphics, disk technology, etc. They typically not only | don't indicate a desired minimum amount of memory, but | cannot reliably talk about system ram vs storage. | | What they want is to know they are getting a good deal | and that they aren't buying a lemon, something that | cannot meet their needs. | | What Apple did is decide they should really distinguish | on classes of identifiable hardware differences, eg. a | better larger screen for a "pro" class, have | good/better/best distinctions within that, and | customization for those who are picky. | | I assume the intersection between people who have | particular hardware requirements and those who do not | understand their hardware requirements is extremely small | these days. Apple doesn't sell computers which really | fall short these days, so I'm able to focus the | conversation on usage, user-impacting hardware features, | and long-term budgeting (e.g. planning even as far as the | replacement for the machine they are buying) | zepto wrote: | Look back to Steve Jobs's return. Long before they had | ecosystem lock in, before even the iPod was released, he | simplified the range drastically to make it easier for | people to make the buying decision. | | Also, anyone who says "it's felt like I have to | compromise on the hardware options" is an outlier by | definition. | ixwt wrote: | I feel like this is a bit disingenuous. The general | populous/average consumer prefers simplified options. | They aren't tech savvy as many here are. When you throw a | bunch of specs at them their eyes glaze over. And then | ask you if they can get on their Facebook. | | It makes sense from a business sense to have fewer models | with small changes between them. You could have tech | workers that assemble every custom order. That costs a | lot more than a simplified inventory of a few different | models that are already pre-assembled, with no hardware | customization. | zepto wrote: | > I feel like this is a bit disingenuous. | | Please refrain from insults, or at least make an effort | to justify this if you think it's valid. | | > The general populous/average consumer prefers | simplified options. They aren't tech savvy as many here | are. | | Isn't that exactly my point? The industry serves the | general consumer. The framework laptop serves a niche. | gorbachev wrote: | I like the Framework laptops as well, but I think there's | a problem I'm not sure is gonna work out in the end. | | If I understood it correctly, you can buy replacement | parts only from Framework. They will have supply issues, | and customers will be unhappy. | | I guess if the laptops don't ever break, or if the | customers' need for replacement parts is more theoretical | than real, it could work out. Or they somehow manage to | get over the small, niche manufacturer hump and become a | Lenovo with massive scale. I doubt that's gonna happen. | reificator wrote: | > _If I understood it correctly, you can buy replacement | parts only from Framework. They will have supply issues, | and customers will be unhappy._ | | RAM, wireless, and storage aren't chained to Framework, | and are effectively the only parts you can reasonably buy | for any existing laptop in the current day. | | I would not be surprised if battery and screen | replacements start popping up, but that's just a guess | not something I'd bet on. | | That Framework will be the only suppliers of parts that | other laptops don't even attempt to make replaceable is | not a worrying situation, it's a hopeful one. | Nullabillity wrote: | AFAIK they generally use the same industry standard | interfaces for RAM/SSD/etc as all other non-shit laptops. | | The problem would come in if a Framework-specific part | breaks, but at least those generally seem to be pretty | simple (apart from the motherboard, at least). | ancientworldnow wrote: | Some parts have to come from framework (keyboard, mobo, | etc), but many do not (memory, storage, WiFi card, etc). | | They've also open sourced the modular components so | people can develop their own third party compatible | parts. | aembleton wrote: | I haven't checked everything but the RAM looks like it is | standard: "For memory, the Framework Laptop has two SO- | DIMM sockets supporting DDR4 DRAM at up to DDR4-3200 | speeds" | | https://frame.work/blog/storage-memory-and-wifi | wccrawford wrote: | Some don't, sure, but many do. | | I care. I often swap out parts. My family and friends care, | because I help them swap out parts when needed, especially | during critical failures when they need it working ASAP and | can't risk some corporation formatting the hard drive for | no reason. | | And my coworkers care because they're fellow techies and do | this stuff, too. | NotPractical wrote: | Your desktop doesn't have a battery in it, like laptops do. | Batteries are the one component in a laptop that is | guaranteed to degrade over the course of a few years and | eventually make the product unusable. The battery is glued | in on the MacBook Pro, so it will eventually become | useless. It's as simple as that, and very unfortunate. It's | nice to have the option to upgrade the other parts too, | though, and why not expect this, if it's clearly possible, | as the Framework laptop shows? | topspin wrote: | "The last desktop build I made 5 years ago" | | A desktop you built using standardized components you | sourced from a competitive market with a plethora of | alternatives specifically designed for easy assembly. | Should any component fail you can obtain a replacement and | perform the repair yourself. Doubtless these affordances | are a part of why you chose to assemble you're machine | yourself. | | You do indeed care. The inability to extrapolate this to | laptop machines seems obtuse. | epistasis wrote: | No, I still don't care at all about the customizability. | I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't | want to deal with an OEM's crap ware. The customizability | was actually an impediment to get what I wanted: a box. | | I don't doubt that a huge market of interchangeable parts | made this easier. But it's important to separate the ends | from the means here, when it comes to customer concerns. | The customers that want customizability and upgradability | are a vanishingly small slice of customers. (Just as are | the ones who want to run Linux, and that small slice does | include me.) | topspin wrote: | "I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't | want to deal with an OEM's crap ware." | | Can you not imagine the vast market of people that might | want a laptop not loaded with OEM crap ware? Because that | is exactly what could emerge if Framework manages to | establish a market of commodity mobile components. | epistasis wrote: | The simpler route would be to have an OEM that didn't | install crap ware, rather than having to order a basket | of parts and assemble them. | | I went the basket route because it required less research | for me, because I just wanted to get to my end result as | quickly as possible. | | Grander goals about establishing ecosystems that serve | other eventual end goals is not the way that most money | is spent. (Though I do spend my money that way in other | areas, such as with climate action, the PC market does | not matter that much to me.) | topspin wrote: | You have just cited two more excellent reasons for | modular laptops and commodity components; component | selection and the environment. That brings the total to | three, including the "OEM crap ware" | | You're a potential customer of this product, your | cognitive dissonance on the matter notwithstanding. | webmobdev wrote: | That's only the half of it - everyone cares when they have | to repair their device. You start to feel the unfairness of | it when companies charge you exorbitant prices for common | components because they've designed it in a non- | standardised way for that particular device. Or when you | face the reality of (for e.g.) having to pay to replace the | whole board because of a malfunctioning soldered RAM or | soldered SSD, and realise how shortsighted it was to buy a | device that is designed not to be repaired. | ashtonkem wrote: | That's almost always the reality when a company "can't" do | something. | agumonkey wrote: | This effect exists all across society. Some culture seems to | drive laziness / selfishness across the (irl) social network. | Every would care but nobody can pull the whole network in the | right direction. That's how your company doesn't have the | right tool, the right app, the right something. | slabity wrote: | Another quote from Linus that's relevant: | | "Imagine being an engineer at a company at Apple, and it | being your job to design the mechanism that makes it so that | machine cannot start up unless the chassis is fully sealed. | Apple spent _actual fucking money_ making sure that product | would not work unless it is in the exact chassis they shipped | it in. " | | That goes beyond not caring. | ortusdux wrote: | Apple's consistently demonstrates that their most important | customers are their shareholders. They are experts at | walking the line between maximizing profits and alienating | their regular customers. If they felt that a modular | computer would have a higher ROI, they would be all over | it. | | Honestly, I would not be surprised if Apple 'invented' the | idea of 'integrated dongles' before their next keynote so | they could sell you a $95 usb 2.0 port. | vehemenz wrote: | To be fair, Apple did make a modular computer. Except | only Industrial Light and Magic can afford it. | stiltzkin wrote: | That's the motto of any for-profit company, you vote with | your money. | imdsm wrote: | To be fair, if a company wants to produce something that | only works on one set of hardware, that should be fine. We | simple choose not to use it, right? And many of us /do/ | choose to use it? But why do we choose to? Because we find | that we're too busy to maintain a Linux-based workstation. | | While there are questionable practices by Apple and many | other machine producers, what you can't argue against is | that in limiting the hardware that MacOS has to work with, | they're able to deliver a level of stability and user | experience that you don't get with Linux. | | Sure, it would be great if we could replace the batteries, | if we could upgrade the memory, and easily fix broken | parts, but that isn't the company's ethos. The company | produces devices that are plug and play, high grade | consumer electronics. Nobody forces us to buy these | products. | | Anyway, that being said, the framework machines look super | interesting and if they were UK available, I'd probably get | one for a non-critical Linux-based workstation. | TeMPOraL wrote: | > _We simple choose not to use it, right?_ | | As if choosing a $1k+ computer to use for years was | equivalent to choosing the flavor of ice cream scoops. | | The "voting with your wallet" argument doesn't work when | there's several variables in play, and the optimal | configurations don't exist on the market. Like e.g. I'd | like to buy a computer that's just like Macbook, except | with repairable/swappable/upgradeable components. Or a | phone that's just like iPhone, except with replaceable | battery, a headphone jack, and repairable home button. | But I can't have them - even if I'm ready to pay a bit | extra, and if I'd welcome a thicker device. These options | literally don't exist. Nothing similar to them exists. | Particularly on the repairability front, every vendor is | choosing to just _not offer it_. | roughly wrote: | > The "voting with your wallet" argument doesn't work | when there's several variables in play, and the optimal | configurations don't exist on the market | | I am against billboards in space but I would make an | exception for this quote. | WhisperingShiba wrote: | You say all this, but you would agree; We really can't be | telling private companies or individuals what to and what | not to do with their technologies, right? | | 1) How do we enforce that at smaller scales? | | 2) How would we prevent our regulation from squashing | innovative solutions to problems, or enhancing safety in | critical applications? | javierbyte wrote: | > I'd like to buy a computer that's just like Macbook, | except with repairable/swappable/upgradeable components | | That's the thing, making something plug and play and | mostly "driver-free" would be very hard to almost | impossible. Framework laptops look amazing but they will | require at least a bit more maintenance and knowledge, | and that is fine too. | vladvasiliu wrote: | I agree with your larger point, regarding limited | hardware support, etc. | | I agree that Apple shouldn't have to support random mods | / hardware components / etc and that their selling point | is "it just works". | | But then again, they don't have to be dicks about it. If | they're able to detect that the hardware has somehow been | modified, maybe just show some message along the lines of | "you've modified the hardware, we're not supporting this | anymore, you're on your own" instead of _bricking_ it. | Lamad123 wrote: | That company only inherited the worst from its deceased co- | founder! | gogopuppygogo wrote: | There are legit security reasons you'd want this. Giving | the owner of the equipment the ability to manage this would | have been the appropriate solution. | topspin wrote: | There are legit security reasons to employ platforms that | accommodate in-house repair. 'Security' can also include | requirements for traceability at the component level. | | Security isn't a product. | llampx wrote: | The point is to take control away from the owner though. | fsflover wrote: | This. Purism offers anti-interdiction services [0] for | their laptops and you still can open them and upgrade | RAM/SSD. | | [0] https://puri.sm/security/ | alksjdalkj wrote: | Yeah isn't chassis intrusion detection fairly common? I | feel like it's been an option to enable in most BIOSs | I've seen. | ArgyleSound wrote: | For what it's worth I don't think Apple has actually ever | done this, and whatever made him believe they do was | probably some other oversight during their | disassembly/reassembly of the laptop | 0xTJ wrote: | An oversight is not the case. This is an annoying problem | for actual repair technicians, not just a mistake by a | beginner. | vagrantJin wrote: | > For what it's worth I don't think Apple has actually | ever done this | | I'm willing to bet real money that they did. | mschuster91 wrote: | Where is that quote from? I wasn't able to find it via | Google. Anyway, a computer that refuses to turn on after | been tampered with _does_ have its uses, particularly if | your threat model is government secret services. | CubityFirst wrote: | From his latest video where he disclosed / explained his | philosphy in investing into Framework. | | > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg | trutannus wrote: | > threat model is government secret services | | Realistically, if your threat model is government secret | services, and you're using unmodified consumer grade | electronics, then you're in 'danger' no matter what. You | can't effectively mitigate a threat at the state level | using resources produced under the watchful eye of the | same state. All they have to do is ask the producer to | swap out the device they gave you with a device that | comes compromised out of the box. And that's assuming the | tech is perfect. Most likely they just hire someone to | defeat the countermeasures. However many resources Apple | has, I assure you even the most janky state has more. | javajosh wrote: | Special hardware seems 007 childish to me. What's better, | having a high-tech tricked-out phone/laptop, or to just | have a random stock Android with an inoffensive sim card | in it? It seems obvious to me that if you're being | targeted, tailed and tracked and probed, you've already | lost. | trutannus wrote: | No, I mean if you're buying a laptop off the shelf and | not ripping telemetry components and whatnot (WIFI | card/airgap for example). Customizing hardware to foil | any out of the box attacks, rather than some sharks-and- | lasers config to 'protect it'. Governments do this all | the time for even slightly sensitive information. | | Commenter above was saying though that the device's anti- | tamper tech would save you from state level attacks. I'm | just getting at the fact that that's not going to work, | since if a proverbial 'they' want to take you out, | there's other ways to do so you can't overcome. Just a | few examples that came to me about how easy it is to foil | anti-tampering measures. | mschuster91 wrote: | Your "random stock Android" likely has a boatload of | exploits open unless it's a Google Pixel. | | > It seems obvious to me that if you're being targeted, | tailed and tracked and probed, you've already lost. | | Depends on which government agency watchlist you are. If | you are some sort of Islamist terrorist, the tools that | are open to the government are far more capable than if | you are some sort of low level drug dealer. | kowlo wrote: | I wonder if government secret services are purchasing | retail MacBooks | [deleted] | sidharthv wrote: | It was from the WAN show. | https://youtu.be/B7f3DTDsocA?t=339 | AlexAndScripts wrote: | If that's your threat model: - You are fucked - You are | fucked, and there is nothing you can do about it - The | government won't care about some chassis check - The | government will use methods that nobody else has even | considered possible yet - There is literally nothing you | can do, unless you have the backing of another nation. | | I find it ridiculous that people build threat models | around organisations with almost unlimited resources that | will only care about you (enough to tamper with your | hardware) if you have done something very, very wrong. | fabianhjr wrote: | They care about keeping new laptop sales up and repairable | anything goes against that. | bitwize wrote: | Linus has now _invested_ in Framework, which constrains how | he is allowed to review laptops on his channel because of the | possibility of a conflict of interest. He says it 's worth it | to support what he believes is a great company with an | awesome product vision. | jagger27 wrote: | Linus has shown his flagrant disregard for impartiality or | any form of integrity over and over again. Look through the | LTT back catalogue and you'll see that Intel is big sponsor | of theirs. The fact that he gives "honest" reviews of Intel | products doesn't magically make it okay. | | You'd never see Dr. Ian Cutress of AnandTech or Steve from | GamersNexus pulling this shit. | | Of course he makes much more money than both of them | combined. Make no mistake that he is an entertainer and a | businessman. | easton wrote: | There is a conflict of interest there, but as a | counterpoint, pretty much every time he does a build | video it seems like he picks AMD (at least, post Ryzen). | onli wrote: | Even now with the Framework laptop said he would like to | help with making an AMD version possible. | donmcronald wrote: | > AnandTech | | AnandTech quit doing SSD endurance testing as soon as | vendors started selling trash TLC and QLC. Is that a | coincidence? Can you _really_ trust them? | | There's a point where you need to put some trust in | reviewers because the industry is set up to make them | dependent on the manufacturers. However, there's a _huge_ | difference between traditional reviewers where | _employees_ are doing reviews and new age reviewers where | _influencers_ are doing the reviews. | | People like Linus and Steve have _way more_ incentive to | put their own integrity over short term interests like | pleasing a manufacturer, so it 's very unlikely you'll | ever see them shilling for anyone. Getting caught doing | that once would ruin their brand (and credibility) | because they _are_ their brand. | | In other words, there are no scape goats in the | influencer space so they have way more incentive to be | completely honest and transparent. | | I remember when Tom's Hardware was new and I think the | current generation of influencers / reviewers are going | to obliterate the traditional media companies that have | turned into affiliate marketing shills. | onli wrote: | GamersNexus is all the time reviewing stuff positively | and then taking on the same enterprise as sponsor. They | can do that because their viewers know that they will | still be very critical with the next product. | | LTT also really always had the proper balance. Sponsored | reviews are marked, sponsored segments are marked, and | they are not holding back on negative reviews for long | term channel sponsors. They totally ripped into Intel | again and again for the failure to compete with AMD, and | at the same time have Intel sponsor new hardware upgrades | for team members in a sponsored mini-series. Totally | fair. | jagger27 wrote: | > at the same time have Intel sponsor new hardware | upgrades for team members in a sponsored mini-series. | Totally fair. | | Of course Intel did a big marketing push right as their | products were the least competitive, and I'm sure LMG was | paid large. Putting _that_ kind of stunt in the same | league as GN reviewing a product from a company that | previously sponsored them (which is, of course, all that | LTT does) is simply ridiculous. | | "Balance" is such a weasel word in this context. They're | playing both sides, plain and simple. | callmejoe wrote: | was that Intel series a review of Intel products? | TA-blahhh wrote: | "invested" is a bit of a misnomer here. He bought several | of them for his employees. He was courted by Framework to | buy into the company, but as far as I know, he noped out of | that deal. | m463 wrote: | I would clarify that - it is not in their best interests to | care. | | what they want is: | | To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. | | If you are "price insensitive" they will allow you to get a | better cpu or more memory for a significant upcharge. | | next year, they want: | | To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. | | They do not want you upgrading the cpu or memory yourself | | They do not want you to add next-year's cpu yourself next | year. | conradfr wrote: | I wanted to buy a new laptop last year and was shocked: | | 1/ A lot of them (most?) had 8Go of RAM. 16Go is rare and | 32Go even more. What year is it?! | | 2/ Most have soldiered RAM without an additional slot. | donmcronald wrote: | And it's impossible to buy an upgrade for just one | component. If you want 16GB of RAM you better be ready to | buy an i7. If you want a nice 4k display you better be | ready to buy a totally maxed out machine. | | Just being able to use my own NVMe disk in something like | a Framework translates into savings for me because I | don't need a huge disk in my laptop and can reuse one | that's too small for my server or desktop. | dwaite wrote: | Soldered ram significantly decreases repair incidents | (from unseated laptop ram) and increases runtime | reliability (from direct electrical contact of said ram). | It allows for the machine to ship with an optimized ram | configuration (lane count, timing). It also reduces the | part cost and device footprint. | donmcronald wrote: | Most RAM comes with a "lifetime" warranty. IMO if the | soldered RAM is so great, they should give me a lifetime | guarantee they'll replace the MB if the soldered RAM | fails. Then I'd be ok with it. | dwaite wrote: | In the sense that products which do not support third- | party repairability should generally have a higher first | party warranty requirement, I agree. | qorrect wrote: | Yeah came here to say this, I think what they meant to say | is "It cant be done at the profit margins we want" not "It | cant be done". | anonymousDan wrote: | I wonder if the slowdown in Moore's law had something to do | with it? I mean back in the day the performance gap between a | new processor and a 5-10 year old one was so substantial it was | hardly worth your while | janandonly wrote: | I just bought my very first MacBook Air ever. But seeing a laptop | like this, with everything being customisable (in contrast to my | Apple laptop: nothing can be customised or replaced by me) I feel | a tinge of regret... | MangoCoffee wrote: | i still have my first macbook. i was able to upgrade the HD and | RAM. its sad that you can't do that anymore. | spijdar wrote: | Well, if you regret it more than a tinge, and you just bought | it from Apple, you can return it within a 2 week window, I | believe. | giantrobot wrote: | They can also easily sell it for 80% of the retail price if | it's outside the return window. | yepthatsreality wrote: | Just received mine this week and while I prefer a 15", this first | generation is a fantastic purchase. Love the 3:2 screen and Linux | support! | | This has convinced me I need to invest time into KDE as well to | help bring forward the fingerprint sensor into the UI. | ecpottinger wrote: | Sorry, I was disappointed. | | No PIO port, no high speed serial port (and before you suggest | USB<>Serial that means another external interface). Also maybe it | is for the future but somehow I missed seeing any Ethernet ports | either. | | Also, is there a base dongle that we can add our own | hardware/software too? Just having a dongle with a onboard | programmable Arduino which can be programmed by the user would | help a lot. | ericls wrote: | I kinda want to buy their stock more than their laptop at this | point. (Not in need of a new laptop) | julianlam wrote: | Surprised there's no AMD option. Would love to finally have a | slim laptop that can actually play games at 1080p via Vega gfx | TOMDM wrote: | These laptops would be an instant buy from me if I could get a | new AMD chip instead of the Intel CPU's. | brodock wrote: | While I would prefer AMD here, because it's Intel, you get | Thunderbolt for free | lawn wrote: | Same here. | soperj wrote: | Yep. At this point in time it's the only choice. | collinvandyck76 wrote: | Same here but for fan noise. Since I've gotten the m1 macbook | air, I don't think I can go back to a laptop that runs hot and | needs a fan. | | In the event that I must get a non-m1 laptop, I can definitely | see myself buying the framework laptop and putting ubuntu on | it. | smoldesu wrote: | It's a shame ARM isn't quite a first-class desktop | architecture quite yet. I'd probably use one if my software | ran on it. Otherwise, I figure in 10-15 years, when it is | "fully featured," the architecture will have already been | usurped by RISC-V. | webmobdev wrote: | I've never met someone before that cares about cpu fan noise. | Genuinely. It never bothers me so I have never thought about | it. Perhaps also because my workflow involves playing music | when I work to make me more productive. | soperj wrote: | They likely used apple for a long time before this, and | they had a ton of fan noise. So likely wasn't an issue | previously. | speedgoose wrote: | Getting a noise less and fast laptop is a good | improvement. It's like going from a fossil car to an | electric one. So much less noise and vibrations. The | noise is acceptable but it's annoying to go back. | soperj wrote: | As someone who bikes, electric cars make a lot of noise | still when they're not going under 10km/hr. | dinkleberg wrote: | As someone who records lots of videos it is quite | frustrating. The less noise the better. | FullyFunctional wrote: | My MacBooks have generally been quiet, but not silent. | Having lived with the M1 MacBook Air since it came out, I | _never_ want to go back to a fan. Silence is a luxury. | Joeri wrote: | Same here. I went from a thinkpad to an m1 air, and although | the noise wasn't something that bothered me before, I do | appreciate its absence now. The battery life also is a big | draw. I can go to the office without a charger, and it's not | a problem. I've never had a laptop that made it past half a | workday. | deadmutex wrote: | Ehn.. I used to be like you. Once I used Pixelbook, a | superthin fanless device, I was in awe. Pixelbook Go was | similar fanless device as well. But, then I realized that | they have their limitations. With a fan, one can achieve much | better performance when needed. So, now, I prefer a laptop | that can passively cool for normal day to day work, and then | for heavy workloads take advantage of the fan. | | I got the framework laptop, which should be able to push the | intel chip to the max 28 TDP. I heard the fan is big, and | thus not annoying. I am curious to see how it will turn out | (My batch 3 order gets delivered tomorrow). | collinvandyck76 wrote: | Yeah I guess I don't have a ton of experience here outside | of mac laptops, but the idea of a PC laptop that only kicks | in the fans when truly intensive tasks are being run sounds | pretty nice. | | My experience has mostly been that when any work is being | done, the fans spin up. It's jarring when you're trying to | focus on the problem at hand. | mhitza wrote: | You need to find your fan rpm/noise threshold. On my | laptop the fan becomes noticeable above 2500rpm. Someone | commented about adjusting the fan curve (I have no idea | how), I just manually capped the CPU performance with a | powersave profile instead. | deadmutex wrote: | Some PCs let you configure the fan curves. I have never | done that though. | fsflover wrote: | You cannot neutralize and disable the PSP spying module in AMD | processors, while in Intel ones you can do that with ME: https: | //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Assert.... | TobTobXX wrote: | There's this great talk from a CCC about reverse engeneering | the PSP: Uncover, Understand, Own - Regaining Control Over | Your AMD CPU | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKH5nGLgi08 | | At 47:10, they mention that they haven't found anything evil. | Ofc, this isn't hard proof, but if I trust anyone's answer, | then it's theirs. I think the likelihood of it being | malicious is nonzero, but small enough that I'd condemn | active backdoors into the realm of conspiracy theories. | | There's always the possibility of it being exploited by | others, but c'mon: Basically ANY other exploit would be way | easier to distribute and activate than one in the PSP. | smoldesu wrote: | As much as I love speculating about backdoors and NSA | wiretapping, I seriously doubt these MEs are malicious. At | this point, managing a modern x86 is tough work, especially | if you want to run virtualization, complex threading and | maintain high efficiency. It makes total sense that there are | mandatory supervisor chips at this point, and without any | evidence that these chips are "phoning home," I simply have | to assume that it's purpose is virtualized KVM for remote | management. Worst case scenario, the CIA wakes up my laptop | while I'm asleep, big whoop. | 0des wrote: | Bravo, I wish I could be this cavalier about a grave | security issue. | mhitza wrote: | If you're not getting the same consumer hardware security | that NSA gets by default, you're cheated on. That's my | opinion. | | https://www.csoonline.com/article/3220476/researchers-say- | no... | fsflover wrote: | It does not even matter if they are actively malicious. | They are closed, non-removable, with proven vulnerabilities | (which not only CIA can use). What else do you need? | philjohn wrote: | How do you know that the closed CPU microcode that all | modern AMD and Intel CPU's use don't have backdoors and | vulnerabilities? | fsflover wrote: | I don't know that, but judging from the amount of code I | would say it's less likely than in Intel ME. | t-writescode wrote: | How is that different from the Intel ones? Can they not | be turned back on or injected again with a new ME? | jjice wrote: | I may be mistaken, but I believe that's something that's | currently in the works (fingers crossed). Or it's at least very | requested by users. | reginold wrote: | Check out the System76 AMD Pangolin. System76 has many values | in common with Framework. | | https://system76.com/laptops/pangolin | spamizbad wrote: | I have a DIY version preordered, due in October - planning on | transferring over my NVME SSD and 32GB of RAM from my busted, | falling apart XPS15 into the new Framework. | clepto wrote: | I just got one of these last weekend(I ordered it in early | August) and so far it's really great. The modular I/O and general | mission of the company was what initially sold me on it, but now | actually being hands on with it, I definitely feel secure in my | decision to get one. I can't overstate how good these modular | ports are. | | I also really like that you can bring your own hardware in a lot | of cases. For example I had an extra M.2 SSD laying around, so I | ordered mine without one and installed it. You can also do this | with the RAM, and even the wifi card. | | The only thing I've disliked about it so far is the arrow keys on | the keyboard. Having full size keys for left and right but split | keys for up and down feels weird, I would have preferred all full | size arrow keys and a small right shift(because let's be honest, | when was the last time you used the right shift key?). | | For anyone curious about Linux on it, I'm running Arch and had | basically 0 problems specific to the device. It's my | understanding there were some incompatibilities with certain | kernel versions before so maybe some of these problems exist in | distros like Debian with an older kernel, but I have had no | issues. | | All in all, it's just an exciting project and nice to see | innovation in the space that isn't just rounded corners or a | sleeker edge or something where they take modularity or | performance away for the sake of aesthetics. | TapamN wrote: | >when was the last time you used the right shift key? | | I generally use the shift key closest to the key I'm typing. | For keys near the center, I favor the right shift key. | | The keyboard would absolutely be the show stopper for me, if I | didn't just get a new laptop last year. The lack of dedicated | Page Up and Page Down keys is unacceptable. | bavell wrote: | Thanks for the report on Arch compatibility! | clepto wrote: | Might be worth noting, I forgot about this when making my | original comment, I wasn't able to get my USB drive for it to | boot without disabling secure boot, but secure boot isn't | something I care about so it wasn't a problem for me. I've | heard it works but I can't comment on the specifics of it. | OJFord wrote: | They donated several laptops to different distro maintainers, | Arch included, fwiw. | | Not to say that it guarantees anything, it's just nice I | think that Framework cares about Linux compatibility and is | acting on it. | the_benno wrote: | For what it's worth, here are also [1] the Framework | community forum thread about Arch and [2] the Arch wiki page | about Framework in case you're interested. | | I'm still waiting for mine to arrive (in the next batch) but | I plan to install Manjaro when it does, and am cautiously | optimistic that it'll be mostly painless. | | [1] https://community.frame.work/t/arch-linux-on-the- | framework-l... [2] | https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Framework_Laptop | epolanski wrote: | Right shift key is important if you want to write fast and | ergonomically. | | I used to not use it till I found typingclub.com and finally | learned how to use a keyboard proficiently. | tkluck wrote: | > because let's be honest, when was the last time you used the | right shift key? | | Worth a try if you don't have the habit yet: use the pinky of | your right hand when typing capitals with the left hand and the | pinky of your left when typing capitals with the right. | OJFord wrote: | That's probably what I was taught, but in practice why? | What's my left hand going to do with all its hundreds of | milliseconds of free time while my right types a capital | letter? | epolanski wrote: | It's not just about speed it's also simpler and doesn't | stretch your palms across the keyboard awkwardly. | thomasahle wrote: | For me it's more a matter of putting as little stress on my | hands as possible. Pressing two buttons (shift and key) | with one hand is just a little less comfortable than | pressing just one key. | bradlys wrote: | Yeah, this is a weird comment from the OP. I use the right | shift for 99% of my shift typing. This is probably because my | version of "homerow" for keyboards is left shift, a, w, f, | spacebar and spacebar, ., p, [, right shift. Which likely | stems from years of gaming. | danhor wrote: | I don't understand the paragraph about the dock. Both laptops use | usb-c, there shouldn't be a reason the 60$ dock doesn't work. | oldandboring wrote: | I own one. It's awesome. | MMS21 wrote: | How are the speakers? | oldandboring wrote: | Not sure. I don't use them. | RandyRanderson wrote: | Very exciting. Hoping they will make something similar with: | | . 15 or 16 inch chassis | | . 4k display (OLED, if possible) | | . largest battery they allow on an airplane | | . no keypad | | . 2x speakers facing up | | . AMD, if possible | | . arrow keys as Apple does it | | . charge a premium for this - ppl will pay it!!! | | Basically just copy what Apple does but with a little | customization. I know this would be difficult but hoping someone | from framework will read this. No one wants to buy a dell XPS but | its the most popular windows laptop in its class for a reason. | FullyFunctional wrote: | It's funny to me that you'd want what I consider one of the | worst thing about the Apple keyboard: the arrow keys. Having | the half-size up-down buttons means I have far more mistakes on | those. Thankfully CapsLock-p and CapsLock-n works as well (I | remapped CapsLock to Control of course) | freedomben wrote: | My thoughts exactly. I cursed those arrow keys every day for | the 12 months my employer forced me to use a mac. Never did | get used to it. | oblio wrote: | > no keypad | | I don't see the keypad. | slaw wrote: | Which 15 or 16 inch laptop you don't see keypad? | amarshall wrote: | > 4k display ... Basically just copy what Apple does | | Apple doesn't do this. Apple instead does the correct thing: | target PPI. Apple keeps their laptops around 226 PPI. The | Framework laptop is 200 PPI. | | Stop caring about absolute resolution and start thinking in | PPI. | pkulak wrote: | This is the one thing keeping me from buying a Framework. | That resolution is so close to perfect... but not quite. Too | high for 1x, too low for 2x. I'm hoping they will have a | better screen option some day, or that there will be a way to | replace the existing one. | amarshall wrote: | Really, OSes and applications need to be better at doing | arbitrary DPI scaling. I should be able to say "scale | everything 1.2x on this monitor". On Linux, using | GDK_DPI_SCALE & QT_SCALE_FACTOR works reasonably well on a | single monitor if apps are respecting them. | | Personally I think Apple's PPI target for laptops is too | low for 2x scaling. | Paianni wrote: | Lots of legacy apps use bit-mapped graphics instead of | vectors. Xaw and Motif are both not resolution- | independent toolkits but getting them to support integer | scaling (with line-doubling) would be far easier than | trying to implement fractional scaling plus anti- | aliasing. | | Apple literally doubled the resolutions of their pre- | HiDPI screens for their current screens and then scaled | their interface by 2x for the default OS builds, so if | their interface is too big for you then it probably has | been since Mac OS X came out. | mike_ivanov wrote: | > arrow keys as Apple does it | | No. NO!! | fouc wrote: | poster is probably referring to this: | https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2019/11/16in- | macboo... | | The left, right, and down arrow keys all on one level, and | the up arrow key alone above the down arrow key. Makes it | easy to find the right key by touch alone. | mike_ivanov wrote: | _This_ is what I need. Not what Apple offers. MacBook arrow | keys are unusable. | dabeeeenster wrote: | That is a modern macbook | yupper32 wrote: | It sounds like a MacBook with extra steps. Why not just get a | MacBook? | | What customization do you really need? | destitude wrote: | Because MacBooks can't be easily fixed by end-users or | upgradeable. | yupper32 wrote: | How often does that actually need to happen these days? | | It feels like a solution looking for a problem. | ldh wrote: | Most people have never had to replace the starter in | their automobile, but the ones that have sure are glad | it's not spitefully welded in place just to make things | difficult for them. | lotsofpulp wrote: | A vehicle starter's lifespan relative to the lifespan of | the whole vehicle is probably very different than that of | a component of a laptop relative to the laptop itself. As | well as the cost of repair relative to the cost of buying | new. | fouc wrote: | If everything works then it feels like a luxury, but if | something breaks it feels like a necessity. | | Being able to upgrade components also lets you buy at a | cheaper price initially and then grow it to suit your | needs later. Also the laptop will be probably end up | being usable for a decade or more. | | I recently upgraded my 2015 MBP's SSD from 256GB to 1TB | (it's the last upgradeable macbook). It's great to get a | significant speed boost on read/write times and more disk | space. And it only cost me about $100-150 to make it | happen. | | The 2015 MBP is still fast and snappy for my purposes, | it's hard to justify getting a new laptop yet. | christophilus wrote: | I switched to a Dell XPS + Linux when my Macbook crapped | out after only a few months. The Apple store shipped it | out and it took over a week before I got it back. | | If that laptop had been a Framework laptop, I could have | just ordered the part, swapped it out, and moved along. | conradfr wrote: | Not OP but I would want ... not MacOS ;) | deadmutex wrote: | Sounds like you Think different. ;) | cantbudgeit wrote: | 4k Oled? On a 15" screen seems overkill. Also OLED displays | still have ghosting problems. 1440p is the sweet spot IMO. | 0-_-0 wrote: | Ghosting? OLED is way beyond LCD: | | https://youtu.be/Qtve0u3GJ9Y?t=686 | wtf_is_up wrote: | It's a cool design overall, but I'll never buy a laptop without a | thinkpoint/nub/nipple/whatever pointing device on the keyboard. | sneak wrote: | > _The speakers are loud enough._ | | I will miss the Apple speakers when I am finally forced to switch | away. | sroussey wrote: | Is there any word on battery life? I can not find actual | dimensions either... | yumraj wrote: | Has 13" become the default choice these days? I would love | everything the same, but with a 15"-16" screen - if anyone from | Framework is reading. | ericls wrote: | The screen size issue can be mitigated by using a better window | manager | kzrdude wrote: | these are 4:3 screens so certainly odd in current laptops | taylodl wrote: | I hope this starts a trend! For the past 25 years that I've been | building machines I've never upgraded the processor or | motherboard - but I've added memory, added more storage or | replaced a power supply. This fills that need just fine! | Ultimately it supports up to 64 GB of RAM and 8 TB of storage! | This is a machine that could last for _years_! Imagine now if we | start standardizing on a laptop chassis, laptop motherboards, | laptop keyboards, and laptop displays! We could have a builder 's | market just like we do today for desktops! | | Honestly, this is one of the best new ideas I've seen in a _long_ | time! | | P.S. Imagine ten years from now - we may be doing the same thing | with phones! Oh yeah, I really hope this idea takes off! | sydney6 wrote: | I think the question here isn't "is this a good laptop?", but | rather "is this business model sustainable for the company?". I | truly hope so.. | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | The Framework is definitely on my radar for next laptop. I kinda | want to wait and see how it pans out in the long-term, though. | I'll be eagerly awaiting for the Gen 2 version of the laptop, or | the "Framework Laptop - 1 year later" reviews. | | For the moment, my Dell XPS 13 laptop from 2015 is still going | strong, and I'd hate to ditch a brand/model that's been working | reliably for me for six years for new-shiny thing from a company | that might go under in a year. | reginold wrote: | If you're in a position to grin and bear it, pushing your | purchase earlier may ensure this fledgling company's success. | mickotron wrote: | Once it is available for pre order in Australia, I am buying one. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-09-21 23:00 UTC)