[HN Gopher] Using two keyboards at once for pain relief
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Using two keyboards at once for pain relief
Author : ruffrey
Score : 184 points
Date : 2021-09-23 16:29 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (symboliclogic.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (symboliclogic.io)
| FarmingGlory wrote:
| This is really similar to the Kinesis freestyle keyboard.
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ I really like
| it.
| dhagz wrote:
| ...just get a split keyboard (the Kinesis isn't a true split -
| still one body). It's cheaper. You don't have extraneous keys.
| You don't have to worry about using software to get your computer
| to play nice with two keyboards. I like the offerings from
| https://gboards.ca, personally (bonus, they're ortholinear if you
| believe that is good for reducing pain).
|
| I got the Gergoplex from that site, and over the course of a week
| of typing I got used to it and was able to be productive with it.
|
| Just get a split.
| colordrops wrote:
| As people mentioned elsewhere in this thread, kinesis does have
| split keyboards (the freestyle / edge line). And you can choose
| your switch type in case you want a quiet keyboard.
| brailsafe wrote:
| Since going to a sculpt, regular keyboards are just upsetting. I
| love almost everything about it, especially how I can position my
| shoulders. It feels familiar for a mac user, ironically, because
| of the chicklet keys, and only took a day to get used to. I'd
| love to try others that are identical in shape, but maybe
| different in tact or texture. The Surface Keyboard is too big and
| too expensive for my taste. $170 vs $80.
|
| I like this person's idea, though of course it's very demanding
| in terms of space and $$. Whatever gets rid of the pain and helps
| your posture.
| darthvoldemort wrote:
| There are probably multiple different causes for RSI in
| programmers, but for me, a regular keyboard is fine. Even my
| slouch is fine. I type with my elbows on the table and it's fine.
|
| It's the mouse that killed me. A handful of years after
| graduating from college, I thought my programming career was over
| because the pain in my neck and shoulders was so bad I couldn't
| type. I went to a bunch of doctors, neurologists, physiotherapy,
| etc but nothing helped, not even medication.
|
| It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to
| accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit.
| I changed my entire set up so that my mouse is away from my
| keyboard when I type, and when I need to use the mouse, I push my
| keyboard away and have the mouse on the table in the center of my
| body, with my wrist slightly twisted so that it mimics writing
| with a pencil. That's also why Macbooks and similar laptops are
| fine with my because it's in the middle.
|
| Once I switched to this technique, my carpal tunnel went away.
| It's been over 25 years now with no pain. Like I said, different
| people probably have different causes of carpal tunnel, but for
| me this was the precise reason.
| bxparks wrote:
| It was the mouse for me as well. It started to cause sharp pain
| on the underside of my right elbow. The problem seemed to be
| the numeric pad on the right side of the keyboard, which pushes
| the mouse slightly further away from my body, stretching my arm
| slightly further out.
|
| The solution was to switch my mouse to the left side, where it
| could be slightly closer to my body. It took a few months of
| getting used to, but after 10-20 years (can't remember), I've
| never had pain on my left arm. I have tried going back to right
| side a few times, just out of curiosity, and the pain on the
| right arm will come back after a few months.
| porker wrote:
| Yes I have had the same elbow pain. It started 5 years after
| switching my mouse to my left hand due to right arm pain.
|
| A concerted programme of golfer's elbow exercises and
| creating a split keyboard as described have dealt with the
| pain.
|
| I am now using a Slimblade trackball and not getting on with
| it: it causes different pain and 3 months in I am still not
| accurate.
| megameter wrote:
| While I have not used the Slimblade, I did consider it when
| I last shopped for trackballs and settled for the Orbit
| instead, which I've owned before and can use for hours at a
| stretch without issue. I believe the angles of the palm
| rest are substantially different between the two models and
| there have been complaints of worse ergonomic properties
| with the Slimblade, which was enough to dissuade me. It's
| something that could be adjusted with foam and
| cardboard(and given a nicer texture with vinyl tape) if
| you're willing to experiment.
|
| I would also review desk/chair height and other major
| elements of the setup too. Pain in the extremities can have
| causation near the hips, back or shoulders so increasingly
| I favor looking for holistic solutions. Lately I have been
| doing animal crawl exercises(bear, lizard, crab) and have
| found that they clear up a lot of minor aches-and-pains
| issues, so that might be another thing to try.
| jamespullar wrote:
| Something that helped me was setting my mouse to a lower DPI
| and using my elbow and shoulder for movement. A very high DPI
| encourages tiny movements with the wrist.
|
| This is also a general recommendation for gamers looking to
| improve their accuracy with FPS style games. Low DPI, larger
| arm movements provides higher accuracy.
| baoluofu wrote:
| I'm the same. Never had an issue with keyboard usage, but
| started to run into trouble with the mouse usage. I used a
| wacom tablet as my daily driver for a while but it was a bit
| too inconvenient. I've found actually that just alternating
| between a trackpad (left hand) and a mouse (right hand)
| throughout the day has solved the problem.
| superjan wrote:
| The mouse was also the issue for me but I switched to a
| trackball. All the work is done by my thumb, no need to move
| your arm around.
| capitainenemo wrote:
| I loved the kensington expert mouse for that (the old one
| that was exactly same as a poolball) since it had wonderful
| heft and could do both palm spins and precision one hand.
|
| But, they stopped producing that particular kind (they were
| also hard to maintain using a special key to open the case)
| so I just switched to using my left hand for the mouse on
| half my computers and right hand on the other half. That was
| easier than moving equipment around from machine to machine
| for me and coworkers/family. No RSI since.
| NortySpock wrote:
| Congrats on finding and resolving your carpal tunnel problem. I
| switched to a basic wireless trackball[1] about 5 years into my
| career (10 years in industry) which has kept me mostly pain
| free since I can avoid moving my wrist.
|
| Still might need to look for a better keyboard and a slightly
| better trackball, but for anyone reading this with minor pain:
| don't ignore it. Try new things early and try to reduce your
| pain, even minor twinges as much as possible early, since,
| well, I expect to be in this game for the long haul.
|
| [1] Logitech M570
| jakub_g wrote:
| Been using M570 too for some time. However recently I've read
| that some research suggests that thumb-operated trackballs
| might do bad things to your thumb and that finger-operated
| trackballs (like Kensington Expert) are less risky. Worth
| keeping in mind and digging deeper. (Don't have K.E. but
| planning to try it out)
| NortySpock wrote:
| Thanks for the heads up on thumb-balls not being a perfect
| solution. Do you have any links handy?
| jakub_g wrote:
| > Thumb-operated trackballs don't work for everyone.
| "Overuse of the thumb can result in de Quervain's
| tenosynovitis, where extending the thumb becomes a
| painful movement,
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-
| trackballs/a... > "Should you switch to a trackball?"
| darthvoldemort wrote:
| Thanks, good luck to you on finding a completely pain-free
| solution!
|
| This is the late 90s, so neurologists and other doctors
| weren't very useful at all. One even suggested surgery to
| correct my problem which got me really scared I might be out
| of the profession and wondering what I could do.
|
| What I found out was that there's a nerve that runs all the
| way down your arm into your hand/wrist, and when I twisted my
| right hand outward to use the mouse, it was pinching this
| nerve constantly. But instead of having pain in my wrist or
| forearms, it was causing pain in my neck and shoulders. This
| is a well-known phenomenon called "referred pain" where the
| body might not have the proper pain receptors to show pain in
| one area, so it sends the pain signals elsewhere.
|
| I started to wonder why I could write notes with a pen for
| hours and hours throughout college and never had any issues,
| but a couple of years out of college, I had such debilitating
| pain that I almost had to quit. So I bought a mouse that had
| the form factor of a pen and tried to recreate my experience
| writing by moving my keyboard away and using the pen mouse
| the way I would when I write with a pen. It was a very
| primitive mouse with a roller ball the size of a marble at
| the tip, but it completely worked. After the pen mouse died
| in 9 months, I tried to recreate my wrist angle in a similar
| way as the pen mouse with a normal mouse and it worked as
| well. As I said, I've adopted this convention and people
| comment on how weirdly I hold the mouse, but I've been pain
| free ever since.
| NortySpock wrote:
| Is it a "vertical mouse" or something different?
|
| examples I've heard of: https://www.logitech.com/en-
| us/products/mice/mx-vertical-erg...
|
| https://us.anker.com/products/a7852
| darthvoldemort wrote:
| These days you can get an optical mouse that behaves like
| a pen like this
|
| https://ergonomictrends.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/08/pen-m...
|
| I'm not endorsing the one above, just showing what it
| looks like. The one I had from the late 90s was wired,
| with a big roller at the tip instead of it being optical.
|
| The main thing is that when you hold a pen, your hand is
| more up and down rather than flat to the surface of the
| table, like when you're holding a mouse. Having it up and
| down is a more natural position for the hand relative to
| your body and doesn't force it to be twisted away from
| the body so that I could hold the mouse. That twist was
| was pinched my nerve for me.
| Izikiel43 wrote:
| Trackball gang unite (?)
|
| I got the ergo one[1] and my wrist pain went away, the key is
| that now I don't move my wrist anymore.
|
| [1] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-
| wireles...
| asciimov wrote:
| I've got a love hate relationship with the ergo.
|
| I love the tilt, and the improved build quality.
|
| But I wish it had better battery life, was a size bigger,
| and had Linux drivers.
| NortySpock wrote:
| Nice, I can see the tilt angle is different.
|
| I might need to try either getting the one you linked or
| perhaps 3D printing a stand to tilt my existing mouse out
| and experiment.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to
| accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the
| culprit.
|
| I noticed that very early on in my career. Back when keyboards
| you could reasonably buy always had a keypad at the right of
| the keyboard.
|
| So what did I do back then? (we're talking early 2000 or so)...
|
| I learned to use my mouse as a leftie.
|
| And to this day I can use my mouse either with the left hand or
| right hand.
|
| Also I made sure to configure everything so that mouse usage is
| minimized.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Same for me, hence years ago I started using _two_ mice.
|
| It took a few weeks to operate the mouse well with left hand,
| but now I'm fairly ok with left handed usage. Still using right
| hand mouse for high precision gestures and when I need left
| hand on keyboard (when using Tab). Unfortunately the choice for
| left handed mice is very low and they're expensive;I use a
| symmetrical Kensington trackball with the left hand.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| I've had a similar experience. A few hours into every workday I'd
| end up with shoulder pain. I ended up building my own split
| keyboard, and keeping each half spaced out roughly as wide as my
| shoulders entirely solved the problem. In hindsight the
| shoulder/arm position for a normal keyboard is just outright
| terrible... if you're even moderately broad you're so bunched up
| to type.
| tokamak-teapot wrote:
| I did exactly this - even down to using Apple Magic keyboards,
| because I happened to have two of them.
|
| The only difference was that I had the keyboards angled 'out'
| rather than in, propped up at their front and middles, so that my
| wrists were higher than my fingers and thumbs higher than my
| other fingers, if that makes sense.
|
| Eventually I moved on from this to a single keyboard specifically
| designed to support this sort of setup, but two small keyboards
| was a great start!
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Split keyboards can also do this :]
|
| If you've always wanted to get one of those fancy custom split
| keyboards (corne, iris, etc), I highly recommend
| https://keebmaker.com/. For a small price premium, you basically
| pick out the keyboard you want, and they'll build it for you (so
| you don't have to mess with soldering, etc).
| andai wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. Super cool and way cheaper than I expected.
| warp wrote:
| I had keebmaker build me an iris some time ago, I second this
| recommendation, excellent service.
|
| (I regret not picking a keyboard with hotswap sockets, I'd like
| to experiment with different switches but this iris will have
| brown chocs soldered onto it forever :)
| lowbloodsugar wrote:
| I also use two Apple Magic Keyboards, though angled in rather
| than out. I have tried various keyboards, including ones with
| cherry, and I own a split Kinesis for Mac. They all have the same
| problem: when I am away from my desk (or country) I need to use
| the laptop keyboard. So I have two magic keyboards, or I have
| one. Has to be the magic keyboard, not the big one with the
| numpad, because that one has the modifiers and cursor keys in
| different locations (no Fn for example).
|
| It's not for everyone, but I wish everyone else would leave off
| the "Oh thats so bad for you", "Oh your life will be changed by a
| Cherry whatever". It's not and it wasn't. Feel free to share
| positive outcomes, but don't insist your solution will work for
| everyone.
| ruffrey wrote:
| Op here, thanks for that! I sometimes type on the MacBook
| keyboard and it helps to have an identical layout and feel.
| Just seeing all the stories here about ergonomic hacks is
| awesome!
| hexo wrote:
| more important is to use ortholinear keyboard
| JCVI-syn10 wrote:
| Cheap chiclet keyboard giving you RSI? I've got the solution:
| _two_ cheap chiclet keyboards!
| ktm5j wrote:
| > If you're adult-sized, it's nearly impossible the keep the
| shoulders in a natural, pulled-back position while typing on a
| keyboard.
|
| I have to disagree with this.. I'm 6'1 and had bad posture for
| most of my life. I had the same issues with pain that you
| describe. But recently I've put a lot of work into it having
| better posture and I don't have any problems anymore. You just
| need the right desk/chair height and sit up straight without
| resting your back on the backrest.
|
| Something like this is really helpful:
| https://www.amazon.com/Posture-Corrector-Men-Women-Truweo/dp...
|
| If you've never put effort into having good posture then you
| probably don't have the muscles that you need. Doing yoga, or any
| kind of core exercise, is also really helpful. I can't tell you
| enough how much better I feel having built up some real core
| strength. I used to hurt my back all the time but that never
| happens anymore!
|
| Just my $.02 :)
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| I don't know, there really is something to it - i bought a Zsa
| Moonlander keyboard last year which is two split halves. I
| instantly felt a comfort i've never had before or since around
| my shoulder blades. It was really satisfying.
|
| That said, i sold the keyboard after only a few months and i'm
| back to a normal style keyboard so it wasn't that big a deal
| clearly.
| ktm5j wrote:
| Oh I'm not trying to say which keyboard setup is better than
| the other.. just that I think a normal keyboard works fine if
| you've got some core strength and good posture. But you know,
| that's totally just like, my opinion man.
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| Apologies if that came off wrongly - wasn't intended that
| way
| yewenjie wrote:
| Can a regular split ergonomic keyboard like the Dactyl Manuform
| not be separated arbitrarily?
| waspight wrote:
| Isn't one supposed to have the mouse in between the split
| keyboard for ergonomic reasons? Setting keyboard parts far from
| each other seems to be the direct opposite. Which setting should
| it be?
| X-Istence wrote:
| I bought an Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and I absolutely love it.
| It has solved my primary complaint of feeling tired at the end of
| the day, and have been loving the custom key commands that can be
| sent depending on the layer of the keyboard.
|
| Certain shortcuts for things like managing windows are now behind
| Fn + a key vs Ctrl + Option + Cmd + key.
|
| While traveling I miss my keyboard, but because its not
| ortholinear at least it retains similar key position so switching
| to a different keyboard hasn't caused too many issues.
| epakai wrote:
| An alternative to the rubber nubs is a drop of clear nail polish.
| I started using it on dvorak rearranged keyboards. Not sure what
| is best, but I got some UV curing type. A bit of alcohol removes
| the residue after curing, and you get a small smooth bump.
| bserge wrote:
| And use 2+ computers at once for increase performance at a
| fraction of the price. That's what I'm doing lol.
| thrower123 wrote:
| The only time I have any beginnings of repetitive stress type
| issues is if I have to use laptop keyboards or somebody else's
| mouse.
|
| I have full-sized or oversized IBM-style mechanical keyboards and
| the largest mouse that I could find on the market. It's not like
| I have the most enormous hands, but I can't deal with being
| cramped up on a little 14 inch laptop keyboard.
| rhizome31 wrote:
| If you're not exercising regularly and you have pain triggered by
| programming you should give exercise a chance. It has worked
| wonderfully for me. In my case just running 5k every week has
| done the trick. Pain went away magically and never came back. I
| have no idea how running can prevent what seems to be unrelated
| pain but I swear it worked for me. I now use the most basic
| keyboard and mouse and I'm fine. I don't know if it will work for
| you but it's worth trying.
| megameter wrote:
| I started doing animal crawls every day recently after being
| tipped off by some YT videos to their benefits, and they seem
| to work even better than running for the goal of full-body
| maintenance. Every time I finish I feel like my spine has been
| gently massaged.
| ajkjk wrote:
| I think having various stabilizer muscles be stronger induces
| you to hold your body in a healthier way. (I think this both
| because I've heard people say this, and I've felt it myself,
| although from rock climbing rather than running). It seems like
| the various basic work of holding your body up and out of
| tension is essentially free for those muscles if they are
| strengthened and flexible _at all_, but a sedentary lifestyle
| can atrophy them to beyond that.
| celesian wrote:
| I guess you do kinda shake and move around the muscle of your
| hands when you're running.
| ziyangdev wrote:
| Try the Moonlander keyboard!
| 12ian34 wrote:
| I just got one, but I'm still using my old SteelSeries Apex
| M500 for work though because I'm just too slow to do my job
| effectively using it still. The learning curve is higher than I
| thought, even after remapping most of the keys to my
| preferences - just need to give it some time!
| jborichevskiy wrote:
| Similar experience here! Love the keyboard but wow it's a
| learning curve
| agilob wrote:
| >To be able to find Home Row, I added a couple large rubber dot
| things.
|
| Have you considered this keyboard is just bad for you? Old
| keyboards were a lot more ergonomic, clickly, and keys had
| indicators to let your fingers scan for keys. Spacebar wasn't
| completely flat, was either rounded upwards (not dipped like all
| other keys). F and J have these indicators to let you find your
| way on keyboard:
| https://cdn.mwave.com.au/images/400/AB55032_4.jpg
|
| >The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey
|
| Was it the one with red switches? I've never heard complaints,
| but again... are you using that crappy laptop microphone all the
| time? No one ever complained on my keyboard and I don't mute
| myself during meetings.
|
| Are you reinventing '90s keyboard?
| dotancohen wrote:
| The absolute best keyboard that I've ever used was the Matias
| Ergo Pro, a true split keyboard with an audio jack plug
| connecting the two halfs, so they can be very far apart. A true
| mechanical (Alps) keyboard, true split, with tenting and tilting
| and integrated palm rests. And a real Function key row! I had two
| of them.
|
| Why two? Because the first one didn't last a year, so they sent a
| replacement. That one didn't last long either. For $250 I was
| expecting a durable keyboard, but this isn't. Many people on
| Geekhack and other keyboard forums also report build quality
| issues with them.
|
| That said, I still highly recommend this keyboard. It is
| comfortable enough to spend $250 every year or two on. I see it
| as less than half a dollar a day for a professional tool. How
| much do people spend on Windows and Office licenses? Not only is
| the layout phenomenal, with the arrow keys and
| Home/End/PgU/PgDown perfectly placed, but it also had very good
| mechanical switches.
| iamevn wrote:
| I love mine too, got it with the quiet click switches and they
| feel really good. Mine occasionally gets stuck and repeats
| certain keys so I'm going to need to order a bag of replacement
| switches and replace them. I've heard that there was a bad
| batch of switches or something so I've been unsure if I should
| recommend it to others.
|
| Hearing that you got a whole replacement keyboard I guess I
| should reach out to Matias and see if they'll send me some free
| switches so I can fix it myself.
|
| If replacing switches doesn't fix it, I would love an excuse to
| tear it down and replace the firmware something custom.
| dotancohen wrote:
| I'd love to hear your experience with that. I'm about to
| order a third keyboard from them, price be damned.
|
| I had the repeating key issue with both my low-force keyboard
| (the first one) and the regular keyboard.
| alfiedotwtf wrote:
| The split wireless keyboard from FalbaTech _dramatically_
| decreased back pain, headaches, and migraines. My keyboards are
| kept at a minimum 50cm apart, and I can move them freely
| depending on comfort (because they are split AND wireless!).
| Highly recommend them!
| pkamb wrote:
| These split and ortholinear keyboards all seem to be compensating
| for the fact that we are taught to type keys on the left hand
| bottom row with the wrong finger.
|
| The "Q-A-Z" slope goes completely against the natural angle of
| your left finger curl. Same for every finger on your left hand.
|
| The right hand gets things _right_ with "U-J-M" etc. Nice finger
| curl with your hand in a natural position.
|
| On normal keyboards we should be teaching and typing the "W-S-Z"
| (or even "E-S-Z") column with your left ring finger, not the
| completely perpendicular "W-S-X".
| ruffrey wrote:
| Op here, I totally agree we need to re-think keyboard
| ergonomics! Millions of people have pain from the design of
| these things. I am so happy the article sparked a little
| conversation.
| rektide wrote:
| I made the jump from dual keyboards to a Kinesis Freestyle (2)
| almost a decade ago. Honestly sometimes I think about going back.
|
| I had dual MS Sculpt keyboards for a while, & loved the curve.
| It's easier to spread the keyboards out far wider than with the
| pretty short cable Kinesis keyboards usually come with (some
| keyboards have an XL option). Also Kinesis seems allergic to
| build a regular-plain-old function-key row, and it seriously
| hampers usability, even after years of use on this keyboard.
|
| The best part is definitely being in an office, and people
| thinking I was working on multiple things at once.
| a9h74j wrote:
| With two Logitech multi-bluetooth keyboards (1-2-3 selector)
| talking to two or three computers, multiple use-cases would be
| covered.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Once you try the 21" separation Kinesis freestyle you won't go
| back (assuming you know how to touch-type). Being able to keep
| your arms at shoulder length apart releases a lot of tension
| you'd otherwise have by brining your arms literally together to
| type.
|
| That being said, the keyboard is hardly perfect.
| lowbloodsugar wrote:
| For me, the problem with the Kinesis, is that the modifier keys
| are all in different locations than the laptop keyboard. I
| still need to use that when I'm away from my desk. So now I
| have to Apple Magic keyboards.
| roganartu wrote:
| > I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for
| me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was
| is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it
| difficult to switch.
|
| This is a really cool hack, and I'm happy that the author found a
| solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit
| confused me.
|
| Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split
| keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally
| talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander which have
| two physically separate bodies, one for each hand. There are many
| different models of these with various shapes and sizes, and you
| can separate them as much as you like. The normal advice is to
| set them up around shoulder width apart so you aren't rounding
| your back to bring your arms together.
|
| Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key
| switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are
| sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should
| do the trick)
|
| I have been using a Moonlander for a couple of years now, and an
| EZ before that. They are expensive at around $400 but I don't
| think I can ever go back. Most of these split keyboards also run
| QMK so you can setup binds, layers, and generally configure them
| however you like.
| EForEndeavour wrote:
| You must be thinking of the Kinesis Advantage. Kinesis has also
| made split keyboards for a while: https://kinesis-
| ergo.com/products/#keyboards
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Kenisis is in the process of launching a refreshed, split
| version of the Advantage. They have some teaser images on their
| Twitter.
|
| But they also have more conventional split keyboards (though
| you can also buy a 90 degree tenting kit to make them weirder
| again)
| lolc wrote:
| I found R-Go Tools Split to be a nice and light keyboard for my
| mobile rig. The only annoyance was the throbbing light in the
| corner. But a patch of tape fixed that. The stock cable
| wouldn't allow placing the parts as far apart as in the article
| though.
|
| https://www.r-go-tools.com/products/ergonomic-keyboards/r-go...
| appleiigs wrote:
| Thanks, looks interesting. FYI: the FAQ says this about the
| light: _Yes, this is possible. You can do so by pressing the
| key combination "Fn"+"A"._
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| This guy seems to have given up too soon. There are also normal
| spilt keyboards like the UHK. And even cheaper Chinese options
| like the Mistel Barocco. These Chinese keyboards are what most
| people should get if they need a split keyboard.
|
| Normal keyboard layout, just split. Connected by a coiled USBC
| to USBC cable that you could replace with a longer cable.
|
| I use the Mistel which fine for me. The layout never bothered
| me, just the distance between the halves and the lack of
| tenting.
|
| They are also programmable which is useful when you can't use
| software to remap your keys.
| airstrike wrote:
| I'd love recommendations on a split keyboard with low profile
| keys. The "normal" angle on keyboards kills my wrists...
| InvertedRhodium wrote:
| I ordered my UHKv2 in January and ended up buying a Dygma
| Raise in the meantime while I wait. I'm sure the UHK will be
| a lovely keyboard, when it finally ships.
| unemphysbro wrote:
| Love the mistel. I've been using it for 4 years and it's
| great!
| mikepavone wrote:
| The Kinesis Advantage line is as you describe, but there is
| also the Freestyle line which are actually split
| flamwenco wrote:
| Having recently gotten back into mechanical keyboards,
| partially for ergonomic reasons, I can say the Moonlander so
| far is the single board I regret purchasing.
|
| Almost $400 for a board that is so poorly designed you have to
| choose between a usable thumb cluster position or a comfortable
| tenting angle, because the thumb cluster is used as one of the
| tenting legs. So unless you have giant hands, it's just a very
| poor experience compared to some other boards I've tried. For
| far, far less.
|
| And to fix this, instead of revising the Moonlander, ZSA is
| happy to sell you an $80 tripod kit, tripods not included.
|
| You can get the benefits of a split board for a _fraction_ of
| the price by getting something like a Lily58 or a Corne, which
| have far saner thumb cluster designs, and have plenty of
| solutions for tenting. And if you're like the author of the
| linked article who can't handle high travel keys, both of those
| boards are available with low profile mechanical Choc switches.
| ajford wrote:
| Yeah, I can't imagine the Moonlander being a great fit for
| someone with normal/small hands. I got a Moonlander and
| happen to love it. Though, I really wish they hadn't decided
| to make the thumb cluster a tenting leg. I think that's my
| biggest complaint about it.
|
| ZSA does sell a tenting leg kit that I believe should allow
| you to swap the thumb cluster screw for a leg, but I haven't
| tried it myself. It's only $24. Additionally, they have a
| 3d-printable file for a tenting leg that should work as well,
| if you happen to have a printer.
|
| The Dactyl Manuform and Ergodox are also decent options for
| anyone looking for something like the ZSA Moonlander but
| don't want to deal with the Moonlander's issues. The Lily58
| and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each
| there own.
| Cu3PO42 wrote:
| Not to discredit your experience, but as another data point:
| I love my Moonlander. I love it so much, I have two,
| actually.
|
| Personally, I find the thumb clusters most comfortable in a
| position that also gives a good tenting angle, but I think
| criticizing coupling the two is fair.
|
| That said, I'm not sure how the tripod kit would help you
| solve that one way or the other. I thought it was designed to
| go on the outside, not where the thumb clusters are.
| 3np wrote:
| I have a Lily58 that I'm still getting used to, got any
| tenting tips? So far I've only been putting a towel under the
| far end to angle it a bit, which is far from ideal.
| softwarebeware wrote:
| My Kinesis Freestyle 2 has a "pivot" hinge that is removable.
| Once it is removed it allows the two halves to be entirely
| separate and up to 8" apart. I took the hinge out years ago.
| slightwinder wrote:
| > Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not
| split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are
| normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander
|
| Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically
| splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the
| split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a
| decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and
| split segments was the mainstream.
|
| > Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key
| switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are
| sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should
| do the trick)
|
| But even the most silent switch can't compete with the
| absorption of a normal rubberdome. Stiff matter hitting stiff
| matter always produces some noise, and most people don't know
| how to use mechanical keyboards correctly to reduce this.
| bsg75 wrote:
| I happen to be shopping Kinesis Freestyle keyboards today. A
| common complaint is the ABS keycaps combined with something
| in the case design echoes the switch noise, even with Silent
| Reds.
|
| Lower quality keycaps at the Kinesis price range being be
| main gripe on the Freestyle Pro.
| enchiridion wrote:
| Is just having a softer touch the answer?
| dotancohen wrote:
| That is half the answer. When I let people try my
| mechanical keyboards, especially the Cherries, I emphasize
| that the goal isn't to mash the key until it no longer goes
| down. Rather, the goal is to stop mashing somewhere between
| the actuation point (usually ~2mm) and the end of key
| travel (usually ~4mm). This corresponds to 45-60 grams of
| force depending on switch type, and staying in this range
| makes for a relatively quiet experience on quiet switches.
|
| But nothing is going to quiet the sound of switches
| designed to give audio feedback, such as the Cherry Blues.
| I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at
| home with other people at home.
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| This is incidentally also great advice for gaining
| dynamic range on a piano
| JeremyNT wrote:
| > Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically
| splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the
| split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a
| decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and
| split segments was the mainstream.
|
| Indeed, I saw the title of this post and I wondered if the
| poster was looking for a setup similar to the Freestyle...
| and it turns out they were!
|
| I made the switch a couple of years ago from a standard
| layout mechanical to the "Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB"
| (nominally a gaming keyboard, but I don't use the gaming
| features) and would not go back. This device can't achieve
| _quite_ as much separation as the "dual keyboard" approach
| in this blog entry, but it's not too far off.
|
| As for the switches, in addition to the mechanical version
| with its various switch options, they also make a rubber dome
| variant of this keyboard, which happens to be cheaper.
| ramses0 wrote:
| Such an awesome keyboard!!
| jagger27 wrote:
| This is why the new hot thing in mechanical keyboards is
| gasket mounting and PCB relief cuts. There is some progress
| happening here.
|
| A good desk mat helps too.
| trashcat wrote:
| I'm glad that this is the way customs are headed. I love my
| Think6.5 V2. Gasket mounting has been game changing for me.
| and0 wrote:
| After Googling for an embarassingly long time I think I'm
| figuring out what gasket mounting is.. how does that
| meaningfully changed how the keyboard feels? Just makes
| the whole typing surface a little flexible / bouncy?
| hadlock wrote:
| I had to google this as well. It looks like the idea is
| to move the surface that the key switches attach to, to a
| sub-assembly, which can then be mounted in a variety of
| slightly-more-flexible sub-assembly. This is the kind of
| minutae I would have loved to get into when I was
| younger. The closest analogy I can think of is a solid
| body (standard) electric guitar, vs. a semi-hollowbody
| electric guitar, although the mechanics are very
| different, ultimately you're attempting to modify the
| percussive effect by modifying the frame.
|
| https://keyboard.university/200-courses/keyboard-
| mounting-st...
|
| https://www.sweetwater.com/c592--Semi_hollowbody_Guitars
| jagger27 wrote:
| There are a couple different techniques, but it really
| all boils down to dampening/softening the bottom out with
| rubber or silicone somewhere in the case sandwich. It
| gives it some "give" beyond the travel of the switch. A
| thick desk mat does this a bit too.
| sbahr001 wrote:
| I had the kinesis advantage 3 for a little over a week. I have
| to say by far the most comfortable keyboard I have every used.
| I returned it because I didn't have the spare time to "adjust"
| to the layout. Its funny its been months and I still miss the
| feeling lol.
| secabeen wrote:
| It took me years to find a split, ergo-style keyboard with
| mechanical keys, but I finally did. The freestyles have them,
| but I don't like the super flat layout.
|
| https://c9ergo.com/
|
| I am loving the split, angled setup with my preferred Cherry MX
| Blues.
| westurner wrote:
| The MS Natural split keyboards are easy to find but aren't
| satisfyingly clicky mechanical keys just like olden times.
|
| How long do these last?
|
| Edit: "Ergonomic keyboard"
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard >
| #Split_keyboard:
|
| > _Split keyboards group keys into two or more sections.
| Ergonomic split keyboards can be fixed, where you cannot
| change the positions of the sections, or adjustable. Split
| keyboards typically change the angle of each section, and the
| distance between them. On an adjustable split keyboard, this
| can be tailored exactly to the user. People with a broad
| chest will benefit from an adjustable split keyboard 's
| ability to customize the distance between the two halves of
| the board. This ensures the elbows are not too close together
| when typing. [2]_
| jon-wood wrote:
| I'm curious, is the Moonlander enough of an upgrade over the EZ
| to be worth dropping that sort of money on a second keyboard?
| What are the big differences you've actually noticed having
| made the jump?
| warp wrote:
| I don't have any experience with the Ergodox, and I loved the
| Moonlander when I first got it. But having used it for about
| 8 months now I really don't like how they've implemented the
| tenting -- the thumb cluster ends up too far away, making the
| inner most thumb keys on both sides unreachable (for me).
|
| I'm likely going to replace it with something with better
| designed thumb clusters when I can (probably a Kyria or maybe
| a Corne variant).
| josephferano wrote:
| My Kyria hopefully arrives tomorrow.
| michaelbuckbee wrote:
| Note, the Kinesis Advantage is the one with "cups" that have
| keys in them in single keyboard.
|
| The Kinesis Freestyle is split into two halves and unlike the
| Ergodex or similar it's just a standard keyboard layout which
| makes jumping back and forth between other computers less of a
| hassle.
| jamie_ca wrote:
| I picked up a Kinesis Freestyle 2 last year, with the longer
| (20" I think) cable, and it's been wonderful. Standard
| QWERTY, and the cable is long enough that I'm in a
| comfortable typing position leaning fully back into my chair
| with my arms sitting on the armrests.
|
| Only complaint is that the macro buttons off to the side just
| emit standard key presses (eg Cut sends Control+x), which I
| guess means I should look into the Freestyle Pro which _is_
| programmable :)
| cliff_badger wrote:
| take a look at this: https://gaming.kinesis-
| ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/
|
| I think it is a better choice than the pro, as it costs the
| same once you purchase the wrist rests (which the pro comes
| with).
|
| You can re-macro every key on the board, and the macro
| stays with the board if you move it to a new computer.
| toyg wrote:
| As a buyer of both the original Freestyle Pro and the
| Edge (first edition, pre-rgb), I endorse this message.
| Either keyboard will likely take your pain away, but the
| Edge is the better option.
|
| The Edge has everything that was missing from the Pro. It
| truly is the perfect keyboard, in my opinion: split,
| backlit, mech switches, fully (and easily) programmable,
| multiple layouts, internal memory, extra macro keys. What
| more could one ask from a keyboard...? The only
| shortcoming is that the keycap profile is custom, so it's
| hard to pimp if you are into color schemes, but that's
| it. I don't understand why they chose to market it to
| gamers, when it's the perfect hacker's tool, but I guess
| them kids are more willing to splash the cash these days.
| salamandersauce wrote:
| Kinesis also makes split keyboards. Since they are talking
| about mushy keys they are clearly talking about the Kinesis
| Freestyle with membrane keys.
| tetha wrote:
| There is a new kinesis freestyle gaming, with LEDs (meh), but
| also mechanical switches (cherry). I'm very happy with mine.
| avgDev wrote:
| Don't forget about exercise and/or physical therapy.
|
| My tendons have been trashed by a medication(cipro) and I had
| some awful lows when my body was hurting, including my fingers.
|
| The only thing I have found helpful was exercise and physical
| therapy. I have been doing PT for over a year now with a
| professional. I also won't code 8-10 hours a day. I want to
| program for a long time, so I prefer jobs with a room to think
| instead of cranking out code non-stop.
|
| I did also use some supplements that were found to help with the
| damage in studies, but not sure if any were helpful.
| ioman wrote:
| I have been using Kinesis Advantage keyboards for close to two
| decades now. The keyboard wells and the placement of the space,
| enter, delete, backspace, and modifier keys I find amazing. I
| haven't been able to find anything else nearly as good. So I keep
| using them even though they only have USB interfaces.
|
| I've been using them so long I have a few lying around. I've
| gotten two set up as described by ruffrey. Oh. My. God. I've been
| typing for less than an hour on this new setup and already my
| shoulders feel way better.
| zylent wrote:
| If you can afford it, a split like the ergodox or moonlander (my
| personal choice) is the correct answer here. I type 8+ hours a
| day and have zero pain. I also switched to dvorak a few years
| back, and consider that to help as well.
| gorbachev wrote:
| Any one of the keyboards listed on
| https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards would be
| better than that.
| pro_zac wrote:
| Great list! I have the Koolertron (aka SmartYao) and love it.
| (Though I don't recommend the version with backlit keys) Before
| that I had one called the Comfort Keyboard. I wore a groove
| into the spacebar over a decade of use. My favorite feature of
| split keyboards is programming the left spacebar to backspace.
| woah wrote:
| Why?
| eertami wrote:
| A well built ergonomic split keyboard with high quality
| switches will certainly provide a better experience than two
| cheap chiclet keyboards placed side by side.
|
| And that's without the auxiliary benefits like freeing up
| additional desk space, a longer lifespan, and ease of repair.
| tjoff wrote:
| Layerkeys that avoid long stretches. It is just so
| comfortable. You might have heard how nice hjkl is compared
| to using arrow-keys, imagine ~that for the entire keyboard.
|
| Straight columns are superior. Think about it, look at your
| right hand and how the columns aligns with the keys
| underneath it. Pretty good huh? Now look at your left and you
| will probably struggle to explain how anyone could ever
| justify it, it is absolutely horrendous.
| gorbachev wrote:
| Because they've all actually been designed to be used in
| split layout, unlike the Apple magic keyboard.
|
| They're also all (?) mechanical keyboards, which provide a
| much better typing experience than any Apple keyboard.
| qudat wrote:
| I would recommend the corne. It's cheap to build and once you
| get used to 40% split ortho you won't look back. As a software
| engineer it has been my daily driver for years.
| flylikeabanana wrote:
| I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an
| RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of
| their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper
| ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable
| 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints
| about " _the_ Cherry MX " switches fall a little flat since
| there's about a dozen different kinds, all with different noise
| and tactile characteristics.
|
| I just can't fathom all that unused space on my desk (two halves
| of two keyboards, going totally unused!) when the investment in
| some natural-feeling typing infrastructure was relatively small
| given how much pain I've avoided, and will continue to avoid.
|
| Edit: clearer word order
| jagger27 wrote:
| > a dozen different kinds
|
| This is a vast underestimation. There are now hundreds of
| Cherry MX compatible clones, many of which are considered
| better than Cherry's original designs.
|
| For example, I'm typing on a switch called the Gazzew Boba U4T,
| which is much more tactile and sharper than anything Cherry has
| ever made.
| gorbachev wrote:
| On July 11 ThereminGoat had reviewed 1031 different switches:
|
| https://twitter.com/GoatTheremin/status/1414247177203900418
| cma wrote:
| Switching to ortholinear can really mess you up when you have
| to use a laptop or colleague's keyboard.
| wolrah wrote:
| I've been using a Moonlander exclusively on my desktop since
| November 2020 while having no trouble continuing to use a
| Macbook Air or my old Acer laptop.
|
| The differently placed modifier keys on the laptops screw me
| up infinitely more than going from an ortholinear split to a
| laptop and back.
| Cu3PO42 wrote:
| I've also been using a Moonlander since late 2020 and going
| back to a laptop has been fine. The fact that on my two
| Lenovo laptops, the Ctrl and Fn keys are not in the same
| order (whoever thought this was a good idea?) is
| anecdotally also a much more frequent cause of issues.
| lowbloodsugar wrote:
| It is the modifier keys that has me using two magic
| keyboards like the article. When I'm away from my desk,
| with my mac, I can still use it.
| ajford wrote:
| With a programable mechanical kb you should be able to
| match the Mac layout. There are a few split versions that
| should have sufficient keys, especially if you're not
| using a ten-key frequently.
| fouric wrote:
| I can second this - my main driver is a Dactyl-Manuform
| (ortholinear), and I have zero problems on any of the other
| four non-ortho keyboards that I use.
|
| I also use Dvorak as my main layout and have no problems
| when going back to a QWERTY one.
| ben7799 wrote:
| There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX
| switches do a shred of anything for RSI.
|
| It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it.
|
| I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my
| fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going
| to have RSI.
|
| I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards
| was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote,
| there's no evidence the mechanical switches are actually worse.
| But there's no evidence they're better either.
|
| No one knows whether it's hard rebound or key travel or
| anything that actually causes the issues. And different RSIs
| are totally different. It's possible Mechanical switches could
| be better for carpal tunnel but worse for tendinitis or vise
| versa. But it doesn't seem like it has been studied.
|
| My experience with medical treatment was doctors and PTs don't
| even know what the different types of keyboard switches are at
| all. They know about desk positioning and ergonomic shaped
| keyboards but switch type was not something that they had any
| advice on.
| wishinghand wrote:
| Who are you responding to? Above comment said nothing about
| Cherry MX for RSI. Neither did the article's author.
| gpm wrote:
| I second (or third now) that travel on typical mechanical
| switches is anecdotally sub-optimal for my RSI. Membrane dome
| switches with a lot of travel are worse, but membrane dome
| switches with almost no travel seem to be better.
|
| Ironically the worse keyboard I've used for it also happened
| to be an "ergonomic" keyboard (from the 90s, or maybe early
| 2000s) with keys tilted outwards. I think partially because
| of the positioning, and partially because it had membrane
| switches with a lot of travel.
| ajford wrote:
| Try a short-travel or low profile mech switch. I believe
| both Cherry and Kailh have a Speed series with a short
| activation distance. The Kailh Choc line of low-profile
| switches has something like a 1-2mm travel which might work
| too.
| [deleted]
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I'm not sure if I'd consider it all hype, at least not when
| talking about the force required to press down a key. When
| using regular 55g switches (brown, red, or something else),
| my fingers get tired rather quickly. But when using 35g red
| switches, I can go all day without any problems (finger wise
| at least). I've tried lighter (20g), but I ended up
| accidentally pressing keys too often.
|
| I will say this: clicky switches serve no practical purpose.
| The same goes for tactile switches, _especially_ when using
| light springs as you'll bottom out most of the time. Whether
| you buy Cherry switches, Kailh or something else doesn't
| really matter either ergonomics wise.
| hogFeast wrote:
| I had the same experience with ultra-light switches, I
| couldn't use anything heavier than reds. Then I tried very
| smooth lubed linears (Alpaca v2, which are 62g), and they
| were totally fine.
|
| I am not sure if they helped ergonomically but I found I
| was accidentally pressing keys far less.
| ajford wrote:
| One benefit with mechanical keys though is that there's a
| massive variety of types, so you can easily find something
| that works for you. You can get short-travel (i.e. Kailh
| speed series), soft bottom-outs via something like the Boba
| series or by using o-rings, high resistance or low resistance
| with varying spring weights, tactile vs clicky vs linear for
| feedback.
|
| With a membrane keyboard you have zero choice beyond moving
| from one brand/model of keyboard to another, but with a hot-
| swappable keyboard you can try multiple switches until you
| find one that suits you and doesn't aggravate any existing
| RSI or trigger new forms of RSI.
| markdeloura wrote:
| This subthread highlights one of the things that seems true
| about RSI: what works for you may not work for me. I find
| that having longer key travel works better for me - typing on
| laptop boards or those shallow Mac keyboards tears up my
| forearms. I use Cherry switches without the tactile bump and
| they work great for me.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| > I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my
| fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm
| going to have RSI.
|
| I just can't bear the thought of using mechanical keyboard
| where I have to lift my fingers too much to be able to move
| them and press another key. For me, the less I need to move
| my fingers up/down, and the less pressure I have to apply,
| the better - as in, hurts way less
| warp wrote:
| I think that's the main benefit of a mechanical keyboard
| with hotswap sockets -- you can change out the switches for
| something better (for you).
|
| There are switches with lighter springs, so you can apply
| less pressure. And if you forgo the MX style mechanical
| keys you can get a keyboard with low profile "choc"
| switches, which have less travel.
|
| (for example purpz are low profile with a very light
| actuation force:
| https://boardsource.xyz/store/5fff705f03db380da20f1014 -- I
| have no experience with them yet, as my choc keyboard isn't
| hotswap)
| ben7799 wrote:
| My injury was multi-factor. It started with a cycling
| injury. Medication taken from the cycling injury was
| partially a cause of the RSI coming on. It was also just a
| really stressful time with a lot of work.
|
| But I had been in the field for ~15 years with no
| significant RSI, and those injuries and RSI weren't too
| long after I had switched to mechanical keyboards. I
| struggled for a few years. There's so much momentum behind
| mechanical switches it was really hard for me to convince
| myself they could be the problem, but I never got rid of it
| till I stopped using them.
|
| I do think key travel is part of it. Playing piano is/was
| 10x worse than computer keyboards, even though nice piano
| actions have a softer "bounce" than any computer keyboard.
| The piano keyboard has huge travel. Meanwhile playing
| guitar the fretboard has absolutely zero give or
| cushioning, but the finger travel is extremely small, and
| it's never given me an issue. (I gave up piano to reduce
| chances of having an RSI again.)
|
| There's no real proof/study of travel vs bounce anyway with
| respect to fatigue and injury.
| DennisP wrote:
| The key to Cherry and similar mech switches is that they
| activate well before they bottom out. With a bit of
| practice you can type by just lightly floating your
| fingertips across the keys, seldom getting the impact of
| hitting the bottom. There's not much travel that way.
|
| My problem was finger joint pain, which was getting bad
| enough to affect my productivity. This completely fixed it
| for me. I just had to put up with a few weeks of inaccurate
| typing while I learned. Sometimes I get complacent and type
| too much directly on my laptop, and the pain starts coming
| back, but the mech fixes it every time.
| smoyer wrote:
| I've got a pair of Ergodox Infinity keyboards with good
| mechanical keys (not clicky) and SA keycaps because I got tired
| of carrying one back and forth to the office. My RSI is gone
| and so I feel that the $800 investment is nothing when looking
| at the ROI of continued use of my hands.
|
| I'm very happy with Cherry MX Brown switches - a good tactile
| feel with very little noise!
| guilhas wrote:
| Wow rubber dot, nice tip
| nbzso wrote:
| Kinesis Advantage 2.
|
| Hard learning curve, macros, endless customization and no pain.
| The idea of using Apple keyboards without wrist support is
| temporary hack.
|
| I have changed countless mechanical and ergonomic keyboards with
| no success. The concept of using your thumbs for most repetitive
| combinations is just astonishingly effective.
|
| As a side effect I remapped left super to control and right
| supper to meta on all my laptops, caps lock is escape.
|
| But nothing can compare to comfort and speed that I can reach on
| Kinesis Advantage.
|
| The key to success with this keyboard is to remap it by your
| standards and wishes, I have seen many people complain about
| using your thumbs or arrow keys, square brackets.
|
| The power of this keyboard besides ergonomic design is in a
| remapping functionality and complementary software.
|
| Rarely nowadays I can say that some product or service is
| changing my life drastically for good. But Advantage is one of
| those life changing products.
| [deleted]
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Coincidentally, I just started using two keyboards for related
| but different reasons - left-hand mousing. I started developing
| tendonitis in my right thumb from mousing. Didn't matter whether
| mouse, pad, or ball - everything wore on it. So, I learned to
| mouse with my left hand, but this presented another problem -
| keyboard shortcuts. I found it was difficult to keep reaching
| over to my left side with my right hand, where most of the common
| keyboard shortcuts reside. I used to use my left hand for those,
| but moving between mouse and keyboard is also difficult. My
| solution was to set up a half-keyboard (aka gaming keyboard) to
| the right to my main keyboard. Now all my common shortcuts are
| easily accessible to my right hand, and it only took a few days
| to get used to ( _much_ less time than left hand mousing). It 's
| working well so far.
| corysama wrote:
| Similar story. I had a year where I was so productive that I
| typed my way into cubital tunnel syndrome. Felt like getting
| stabbed by needles at random points in the day. Doc said I
| needed surgery. Instead I changed my routine dramatically for a
| few months.
|
| 1. "Essential Hand Stretches For Guitarists or Any
| Instrumentalist" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSrfB7JIzxY
| before, during and after typing.
|
| 2. When typing, hold my hands out limp like a zombie and move
| my whole arms and torso to hit the keys with limp middle
| fingers.
|
| 3. 2 keyboards. 2 mice. One set in the normal placement.
| Another keyboard in my lap. Another mouse on a pedestal to the
| left of my chair. Switch which device I'm using every few
| minutes.
|
| In a few months the pain was gone and hasn't come back. I still
| get a bit tingly a decade later if I type a lot. But, besides
| that one year, I've always spent way more time reading code and
| thinking about code than actually typing code.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Thanks for the exercises - I'll give them a shot.
|
| I'm also now doing the zombie typing thing, but not quite
| used to it yet. I wish I would have learned my lesson from my
| high school typing teacher, who would whack our arms with a
| ruler if we were resting our wrists on anything.
|
| And, yeah, switching between multiple devices too: regular
| mouse, vertical mouse, track pad and trackball. That started
| with something I read along the lines of "the best ergonomic
| position is the next position".
| cecilpl2 wrote:
| Honestly, switching to a more natural layout like Dvorak is
| probably one of the best things you can do for wrist pain. I
| don't think there have been any studies on it yet, but
| anecdotally it's great. Many people report likewise.
|
| It's not easy to switch but imo it's well worth the time to
| optimize one of the primary interfaces with which you will
| interact with the world for decades to come.
|
| It's so bizarre to me that we are all stuck on a horribly
| unoptimized interface and we continue to teach our children how
| to use it, when much-better performing alternatives are easily
| available.
| ebiester wrote:
| Dvorak didn't change anything for me and I went back. The
| problem for me is angle of wrists, not key travel. (The other
| problem is one-handed chording and stretching. Ctrl-X,V for
| example.)
| hyperpape wrote:
| The author dismisses clicky keyboards as "too loud for screen
| shares", but I'm not sure that's a problem with a good mic. You
| get truly impressive noise reduction.
| https://www.benkuhn.net/vc/. My own experience is that with even
| a decent mic, I never used mute, and could do things like calls
| while my son watched TV in the next room (not separated by a
| door, but by a wide open entryway). My coworkers testimony made
| me clear that while it was distracting for me, they weren't
| hearing the noise.
| glouwbug wrote:
| It's not about the keyboard. It's about the lack of a strength
| building regime. Humans are not built to sit behind a desk. A
| strength training regime like Starting Strength or Stronglifts
| 5x5 is what the average office worker needs to survive their
| career RSI free into old age
| r5Khe wrote:
| I love both Starting Strength and Stronglifts and I think
| exercise is absolutely critical for everyone, especially
| knowledge workers. I lift daily, but I still get RSI. Maybe I'm
| an anomaly, but I think you might be painting too broad a brush
| with this prescription.
| chillacy wrote:
| If you've done those programs then you know how important form
| is to doing physical activities safely. The way I see it, the
| standard keyboard is akin to encouraging lifting with bad form,
| 30-80 hours a week.
| ethanmad wrote:
| If you're interested in split keyboards, check out the
| Keyboard.io Model 100[1], which will be shipping in January.
| They're a reputable company, having already successfully sold the
| Model 01 and Atreus with great success. Jesse and Kaia are great
| folk and send regular updates on the production.
|
| Why Model 100 over other split boards like the Moonlander or
| Ergodox? 1. Sculpted keycaps take the ortholinear split board to
| another level of comfort (and help recognize which keys your
| fingers are on). 2. It's $55 cheaper than Moonlander. 3. The palm
| key allows you to layers without having to move your hand. 4.
| Aesthetics?
|
| I've been using a Model 01 for the past few years and other
| typing experiences can't compare. I'm waiting for a Model 100 now
| so I can switch to its better (MX-style) switches.
|
| [1]: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-keyboardio-
| model-100-...
| samuell wrote:
| I used to do this before with two wireless Logitech K400rs, to
| ease my wrist pain.
|
| I really like their compactness, built in touchpad and volume
| controls etc), but was not happy with the fact that i could not
| keep them too close to each other, and that fn-key combinations
| would not work across the two keyboards (on k400 the fn keys are
| key (pun intended) to getting to the function keys)
| ruffrey wrote:
| If you're on mac, Karabiner will link the function and hot key
| combos http://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org to
| slg wrote:
| Either this person has incredibly broad shoulders or they have
| their arms splayed out or something. I can't imagine the 20
| inches of separation available on the Kinesis Freestyle is "Not
| far enough apart" to "keep the shoulders in a natural, pulled-
| back position" for all but the most extreme outliers. I have a
| Kinesis keyboard and the only possible complaint I have is no
| numpad.
| ben7799 wrote:
| If you were working with a PT they want you sitting so far
| upright with your shoulders pulled so far back you might not be
| able to even reach the keyboard.
|
| We're all so used to the slouch it's hard to grasp.
|
| I can't sit back in my chair at all and both keep my shoulders
| back AND reach the keyboard.
| slg wrote:
| That is an issue of depth. I was questioning the author's
| problem with width. The results on Google say the average
| shoulder with on a man is 16 inches. The Kinesis Freestyle
| maxes out at 20 inches of separation. That should be plenty
| for most people.
| benfrancom wrote:
| I had rsi as well, so bad I couldn't shake anyone's hand. I
| thought my wrist was broken. What fixed it for me was to drop the
| keyboard down onto my lap using a laptop desk, or "lapdesk." I
| believe my pain was from resting my wrists or forearms on the
| desk or chair armrests...So I also removed the chair armrests.
| Also, removing the distance from keyboard to mouse by utilizing a
| tablet keyboard w/o a numeric keypad. Using the i3 window manager
| in Linux was great, and I need to do better at using vimium in
| the browser to reduce mouse usage. It took me forever to find the
| lapdesk thing out, and there is research behind the ergonomics:
| http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ergoguide.html
|
| http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html
|
| In my opionion, it's worth a good read-through.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| I've thinking about trying this for a very long time, but never
| did so. My keyboard "mechanical switch" of choice is Trope. To me
| there isn't a single other switch that comes even close (and I've
| got lots of keyboards). And among the Topre keyboards, my
| favorite is the HHKB Pro JP (japanese layout)... But it's not
| split (I don't care if it's two parts or one part: to me "split"
| means both halves are at an angle).
|
| So I've been thinking about using not one but two HHKB Pro JP, as
| in TFA. I should really just try it.
| yetanothermonk wrote:
| I don't game but I've found Kinesis split keyboard
| (https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/) + vertical mouse cured my
| wrist/forearm pain. That plus a desk at 27" instead of a "normal"
| 32" are one time ergonomic expenses that are absolute no-brainers
| for programmers.
|
| It took a lot of trial and error to find the setup that worked
| for me. I think the above is the right 80/20 solution. Worth a
| shot and hope it ends up helping someone. FWIW, the Kinesis
| keyboard has a nice tilt that corresponds with the vertical mouse
| tilt.
| srcreigh wrote:
| The Advantage 2 can be modified to be a split keyboard. Take a
| look inside, it's pretty simple. [0] Just need some longer cables
| and add extra supports to the case right? It appears at least one
| person has accomplished this. [1]
|
| [0]: http://www.abarry.org/likelytobeforgotten/wp-
| content/uploads...
|
| [1]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=16112.0
| ajford wrote:
| Kinesis has also been teasing a new board that looks to be a
| split Advantage style board.
|
| https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1397335511694381058
| slightwinder wrote:
| Or just use a split keyboard, there are some dozen available
| nowadays: https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards
|
| Personally, I'm using a Dygma Raise, after testing the Ergodox
| for a while. And the Dygma is really mostly perfect IMHO. I would
| prefer it to have an ortholinear layout, and an additional row
| with F-Keys (layers can be cumbersome when hands are not at
| homerow-position). But the build-quality and sane Thumb-cluster
| really makes it for me.
|
| Though the argument about loudness of mechanical keys is
| understandable. But this can be solved with a proper audio-setup.
| Just look at all the streamers with their silent gaming-
| keyboards.
| rococode wrote:
| Absolutely love my Dygma Raise. Link for anyone interested:
| https://dygma.com/
|
| My only gripe with it is that I wish the wrist pads were
| detachable - not because of the quality (which is good), but
| because I use a keyboard tray and they're a little bit too big
| for the amount of space I have. Also agree that an F-row would
| be nice, though I've gotten used to layer shifting for extra
| keys. I even have a layer that puts the letters on the right
| side of the keyboard onto the left side, so when I need to
| click around a lot while typing I can type using my left hand
| only and leave my right hand on my mouse.
|
| The thumb cluster is perfect and the software does everything I
| need it to do. Customer support is great. And with their silent
| linear switch option (Kailh Silent Pinks), typing is very quiet
| and suitable for even an open office. No problems typing at
| full speed on it either since it's not an ortholinear layout, I
| was hitting my usual WPM (~135) the day I got it.
| psiconaut wrote:
| After some custom wooden cases for my ergodox, I'm really
| excited about the keyboardio model 100 https://keyboard.io/
| basically an ergodox with style, and what seems a bit more
| ergonomy. I laughed a lot with the video for their last
| crowdfunding campaign, chicken jokes included :D
| iwintermute wrote:
| I've got 001 model and like it so much that getting 100 as
| the second one.
| qudat wrote:
| Without reading the article I thought that's what they meant.
|
| For me the biggest QoL improvement has been switching to a
| split ortho keeb (https://github.com/foostan/crkbd). They are
| super cheap to build (corne is 42 switches which are the most
| expensive component of a keeb) and once you get the hang of it
| they are superior to any other typing experience.
|
| Learning how to use a 40% had a steep learning curve, but after
| a few weeks I was very productive and now I don't even think
| about the layers.
|
| Since corne is so easy to build it's a great introduction into
| building your own keyboards. I just recently purchased the
| components from keyhive and I think I only spent $110 -- if
| that? That might sound expensive for a keyboard you have to
| build yourself but the prices for custom built keyboards can
| get insane (in the thousands)
| 0x000000001 wrote:
| Did you read the article?
|
| > Not far enough apart.
| oauea wrote:
| Sure did. Just take a look at
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ or similar. There's a
| cable that separates the two keyboards and they can go
| further apart than the picture in the article. Or just
| replace the cable with a longer one.
| lupire wrote:
| OP is committed to Mac keyboards, despite claiming to care
| about ergonomics.
| fouric wrote:
| I think that this is meant as a "hack" - if you have two
| keyboards lying around and don't want to (or can't) purchase a
| new one. If you _can_ , then yes, getting an actual split
| keyboard is far better.
|
| However, the Dygma Raise has neither ortholinearity, nor
| concavity, nor a good thumb cluster (it's flat, not tilted to
| fit the actual strong muscle movement of your thumbs) - all of
| which improve ergonomics. See the Dactyl-Manuform for a build
| that has all of these three things.
| nafizh wrote:
| I have no idea about these custom keyboards, and now I am
| paralyzed through choices when going to the github link. What
| would be a good first split keyboard to try out?
| jakupovic wrote:
| I do this already with ThinkPad keyboards which have a red knob
| for a mouse and love it. Shoulder pain, RSI all gone.
| Symbiote wrote:
| I created a filter able gallery of split, mechanical keyboards to
| help people browse through the kind of things that are available.
|
| https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
|
| Xah Lee has a page with some non-mechanical options listed.
|
| http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html
| shocks wrote:
| These are fantastic. Thank you!
| [deleted]
| Izikiel43 wrote:
| I got severe wrist pain in my right wrist after a year of using a
| regular keyboard and mouse.
|
| After several changes, I got a microsoft ergonomic keyboard [1]
| and a logitech mx ergo advanced trackball, and I've been pain
| free since then.
|
| The trackball helped a lot since I don't need to move my wrist,
| just my thumb.
|
| [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/microsoft-ergonomic-
| keyboa...
|
| [2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-
| wireles...
| strange_things wrote:
| Has pain from using keyboard. Uses apple non-mechanical
| keyboard...
|
| Try a mechanical keyboard. Gateron or Cherry brown is my choice,
| silent and very comfortable.
| hermitdev wrote:
| The author does mention having tried and disliked a Cherry MX.
| stavros wrote:
| I quite like the split style, so I made a split keyboard for me:
|
| https://imgz.org/i6HG7FUf/
|
| I love it, it works extremely well and is exactly suited to my
| hands. I should finish writing up the process one of these days.
|
| I certainly recommend getting a split keyboard (maybe BT?) if you
| want to try this approach, though two cheap keyboards might be
| cheaper than one good split one.
| lancefisher wrote:
| When I broke my clavicle, I rigged up a second keyboard that I
| could use with my arm in a sling: https://live-
| fts.flickr.com/photos/lancefisher/4293591069/in...
|
| It worked really well! The biggest downside was that I had to use
| modifier keys on the same keyboard as the key I was modifying.
| e.g. right shift and l to get a capital L.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| That keyboard you have in your left hand is one of my favorite
| keyboards ever, as far as non-standard layouts go, anyway. I
| just love how it fits over any laptop keyboard for ergonomics
| on the go.
| yummypaint wrote:
| An extra benefit of doing this is that both hands still have
| access to the full key set. It would be useful to re-assign the
| extra keys to other functions, but this seems non-trivial to do
| cross platform in software. Would be a nice project to make a
| little hardware box to combine two keyboards into one, with a
| little OLED screen for setting shortcuts.
| aimor wrote:
| Trying this out right now with a keyboard and laptop and I'm
| immediately a fan! I'm pleasantly surprised that Shift works
| across keyboards.
|
| I really dislike keyboard key layouts, that is the physical
| staggered location of the keys always feels cramped and
| inconvenient when our fingers naturally want to splay out. I also
| am pretty comfortable reaching across the keyboard, or typing one
| handed, even though I like to stick to the home row. Using two
| keyboards I notice how much more natural it is to reach across
| and use the 'wrong' hand for certain keys. But mostly my
| experience is just what the author said: The relief was almost
| instant. This feels like the way I'm supposed to have been typing
| all along.
| jarpineh wrote:
| Hey. I do this! I should have done this years ago instead of
| trying to deal with English language keyboards or those few ergo
| boards that do support Nordic/Swedish/Finnish layout.
|
| It is not about learning the different layouts. There's just not
| enough keys here, unless I start switching layouts based on
| writing language. So much money gone, especially to get the more
| esoteric pieces shipped here.
|
| I am contemplating adding shortcuts to unused halfs of the
| keyboards.
| ashton314 wrote:
| There is a lot of hype on this thread about the Moonlander
| keyboard.
|
| _The hype is real._
|
| The author has a neat hack, but seriously, just get yourself a
| split keyboard that supports the QMK firmware, customize the crap
| out of it, and your hands will thank you forever.
| jagger27 wrote:
| I wish I could buy the Moonlander without switches and keycaps.
| I already have both.
| ashton314 wrote:
| That would be nice. They explain why they don't do that here:
| https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/faq
|
| That being said, their support and product are absolutely
| excellent--might be worth it anyway
| jagger27 wrote:
| That is somewhat of a good point about testing, but I'm not
| 100% convinced. The PCB itself should have already been
| tested at the factory, which should be sufficient for
| someone like me who's ordering it without switches.
|
| The purpose of testing the switches how they're doing it is
| to ensure that the pins weren't bent upon insertion and the
| switches themselves. Neither of those things apply in my
| case. Other companies sell plenty of DIY hot swap board
| kits without switches pre installed, so they must have a
| reliable and cheap way of testing the hot swap sockets
| themselves (something the PCB factory may or may not do,
| not sure).
| ngngngng wrote:
| https://ergodox-ez.com/
| robomartin wrote:
| Based on my own experience, I don't think any of this is
| necessary.
|
| Context: Back about twenty years ago; startup; spending 18 hours
| a day, 7 days a week for about 2 years almost full time in front
| of the computer coding, electronics design, 3D CAD, etc.
|
| I developed pain and soreness on both wrists. Inflammation too.
| They were warm to the touch. I resorted to things like coding
| with ice packs on my wrists. It sucked.
|
| I also had context from work in another industry where I knew
| people who had surgery on their wrists due to the pain and
| inflammation. Not fun at all. And, no, it did not solve the
| problem.
|
| Other than repetitive motion, the root cause is bad ergonomics.
| Splitting the keyboard or using two keyboards does not solve the
| problem.
|
| You need four things:
|
| 1- A low actuation effort keyboard
|
| 2- A trackball --mice are horrible, they require far more motion
| and effort than the task demands
|
| 3- A good adjustable chair (Aeron is what I use) with adjustable
| arm rests
|
| 4- An ergonomic desk, not an office desk
|
| #4 is where I went to work and designed my own [0] [1]. The other
| factors are somewhat subjective and require you to experiment
| until you find what you like.
|
| The effect was almost instantaneous. You setup your chair to
| match the arm rest height to that of the wrist support bar on the
| desk. And you relax. You have to learn to relax. You hand
| naturally droops into the cavity where the keyboard and trackball
| are. The objective is minimal to no attitude (orientation)
| support tension on the upper tendons. When you eliminate this
| tension, the problem is gone.
|
| The trackball makes it so you don't have to move all over the
| place to use the GUI. This is particularly true of a multimonitor
| or large monitor setup. Sorry to say this --because I know there
| are people who like them-- mice are horrible. The same is true of
| touch pads. Great for low cost integration into thin laptops,
| horrible for ergonomics. I use a trackball on my laptops as well.
|
| If this worked for me (18 hours/day, 7 days a week, 2 years) it
| has to work for anyone doing less than that.
|
| Normal office desks are horrible. They are a relic of the days
| when people wrote on paper by hand. A modern ergonomic desk
| designed for extended work on computers cannot have a single flat
| surface at 29 inches (74 cm) of height. That's ridiculous. The
| ergonomics of using a keyboard and mouse/trackball on such a
| surface are 100% wrong.
|
| Measure the height from your elbow to the floor while relaxed on
| your chair. Femur bone should be horizontal, feet comfortably
| touching the ground, spine is comfortably vertical (not
| slouching), shoulders relaxed, forearm bent at 90 degrees
| (horizontal). Is that 29 inches? Nope. It's probably in the 25 to
| 26 inch range (63.5 to 66 cm). Guess the height of the keyboard
| shelf on my custom desk? The wrist support bar is about 1.5
| inches (4 cm) high, sanded to about 600 grit and stained with
| Tung oil. It's reasonably friction free, not sticky or
| perspiration-inducing. The edges are rounded to, if I remember
| correctly, a 1/2 inch (1.3 cm) radius).
|
| [0] https://i.imgur.com/S8gOPh7.jpg [1]
| https://i.imgur.com/PoKDNOk.jpg
| CarVac wrote:
| They're out of style, but keyboard trays that extend out from the
| desk let you get the keyboard lower and closer to you for better
| shoulder and arm positioning. You don't need a split unless
| you're zombie-arm reaching for a keyboard far away on top of your
| desk.
|
| Personally, my arms are very long so I actually type with my
| keyboards directly on my lap. My upper arms hang straight down,
| my shoulders completely neutral.
| bckr wrote:
| I think this is actually going to be a game changer for me. I got
| a keychron k6 and it's almost perfect (I only don't like having
| to press a function key to type a backtick).
|
| Plus it was CHEAP for a mechanical keyboard. I can easily
| purchase a second one. And it's clear from just spreading my
| shoulders that this will have a big impact on my shoulder pain.
|
| Thanks for sharing!
| hprotagonist wrote:
| split boards like an ergodox are really quite good, especially in
| this regard for us broad-shouldered folks.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I've badly badly wanted an OS that supports multiple mice with
| multiple cursors on the screen.
| nvmletsdoit wrote:
| I noticed when I started to exercise more seriously few years
| ago, all the pain from working 8h+ in front of a PC magically
| disappeared. But I think the key isn't just do the exercises for
| a good posture. Just commit to something a little more ( gym, tai
| chi, whatever you want ) and your body automagically will handle
| better the "bad habits".
|
| TLDR: I noticed a lot of difference between just doing postural
| work and a fully committed "sport".
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