[HN Gopher] FOIA requests show Apple's emails pitching state age...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       FOIA requests show Apple's emails pitching state agencies on IDs
       and Wallet app
        
       Author : danso
       Score  : 177 points
       Date   : 2021-09-28 15:34 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.muckrock.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.muckrock.com)
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | nojito wrote:
       | Isn't the implementation the same between Android and iOS?
        
         | marcellus23 wrote:
         | Yeah, my understanding is that Apple is using a standard:
         | 
         | > Apple's mobile ID implementation supports the ISO 18013-5 mDL
         | (mobile driver's license) standard which Apple has played an
         | active role in the development of, and which sets clear
         | guidelines for the industry around protecting consumers'
         | privacy when presenting an ID or driver's license through a
         | mobile device.
         | 
         | https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first...
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | literallyaduck wrote:
       | "Just unlock your phone so we can ID you."
       | 
       | Edit:
       | 
       | How the technical implementation works is irrelevant to how the
       | "boots on the ground" will use it. "We can't accept this until
       | the device is unlocked." will be a common refrain. Or "I need the
       | device to verify" while they eliminate your video record of the
       | encounter.
       | 
       | We just recently saw how Apple bends over for government demands.
        
         | t3rabytes wrote:
         | Except that isn't how it works.
         | 
         | > Only after authorizing with Face ID or Touch ID is the
         | requested identity information released from their device,
         | which ensures that just the required information is shared and
         | only the person who added the driver's license or state ID to
         | the device can present it. Users do not need to unlock, show,
         | or hand over their device to present their ID.
         | 
         | https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first...
        
           | _jal wrote:
           | Cops routinely use possession of a target's ID as a detention
           | method during traffic stops.
           | 
           | I rather suspect we'll see begin to see stories of
           | substituting phone possession if this becomes widespread.
           | 
           | Related... do "I've been pulled over" recorder apps continue
           | to run while this is active?
        
             | eli wrote:
             | The intent is that you tap the phone on a reader and that
             | it doesn't leave your possession.
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | fay59 wrote:
             | People need to accept that the moment you're face to face
             | with a cop, software isn't going to restore accountability
             | on the spot or give you an edge against an adversary that
             | has the monopoly of violence. If your threat model is that
             | you should be prepared for a cop to seize either your
             | physical driver's license or your phone, you should make
             | sure you carry the one you care the least about with you.
        
             | dwaite wrote:
             | In many locales they will not be able to retain a phone
             | legally without court order because of laws/rights around
             | search-and-seizure.
             | 
             | Unlike a state-issued ID, the understanding is solidly that
             | the phone is the citizen's property.
        
               | crooked-v wrote:
               | > legally
               | 
               | There's the problem. Cops do plenty of illegal things all
               | the time.
               | 
               | That's before even getting into how civil forfeiture
               | exists as a massively profitable and federally-approved
               | end-run around the Constitution.
        
           | blitzar wrote:
           | Sure makes collecting up ID's quicker if it is just tap and
           | go. They should also log the transfer/recipient for the user.
           | 
           | Wonder what kids are going to do for fake ID when you have to
           | tap to get into the club...
        
             | rurp wrote:
             | Oh I'm sure motivated kids will find hacks and workarounds.
             | If anything it might end up being even easier to fake your
             | age; especially when dealing with businesses that are
             | totally apathetic or unknowledgeable about technology.
        
             | borski wrote:
             | I can't tell if you're implying fake IDs are something we
             | should try to keep around; I have no problem improving
             | security for underage kids.
             | 
             | Signed, someone who definitely did but shouldn't have been
             | clubbing at 14.
        
               | blitzar wrote:
               | I am implying that kids will find a way, for those of us
               | that live in the free world and are adults at 18 it is
               | less of a burden. For the poor souls in the US who _come
               | of age_ at 21, fake phones for id might be the new
               | accessory.
        
               | borski wrote:
               | Yes, some kids will find a way. I would have. But I have
               | no problem making the barrier to entry higher, at least
               | until parents start responsibly introducing their kids to
               | alcohol or drugs instead of just _pretending they don 't
               | exist_ or worse, arguing they are awful from a religious
               | or otherwise zealous perspective.
               | 
               | In a perfect world, parents would teach their kids about
               | how to party responsibly, but we don't live in a perfect
               | world. At the very least, when kids get older they can
               | arguably make slightly better decisions (e.g. think more
               | clearly) _sometimes_.
        
             | justahuman1 wrote:
             | Hold someone else's phone?
        
               | DigitallyFidget wrote:
               | That's what concerns me. It wouldn't be unreasonable or
               | impossible for this to happen. The physical IDs have a
               | ton of security features to them. And that's actually not
               | even required. It's NFC based tap, someone will find a
               | way to exploit and spoof a valid ID.
        
               | dwaite wrote:
               | Typically if presenting in person (such as airport
               | security) you would need to also release your picture,
               | which would show up on the TSA agent's terminal next to a
               | big green checkmark for the valid cryptographic
               | signature.
               | 
               | Without the picture? My understanding is that release
               | does require authentication, and the message could
               | disclose whether that was done with say the fingerprint
               | used when the license was added to the phone.
               | 
               | The use of cryptographic signatures means the weakest
               | link would likely be the identity verification process of
               | the issuing DMV (or their app).
        
               | judge2020 wrote:
               | If it's in any way reliant on a central database, or even
               | PGP, I fail to see how you could fake an ID besides
               | finding someone that looks like you and sending that in
               | your place.
        
               | dylan604 wrote:
               | It would be interesting if the tap just sent over an ID
               | number and then the receiver downloads the data including
               | photo on file.
        
       | Bud wrote:
       | Good! Apple _should_ be pitching beneficial technologies like
       | this.
        
       | Lamad123 wrote:
       | This company wants to shipify the rest of society at all cost!!
        
       | PerkinWarwick wrote:
       | Hey, at least they're not requiring a chip implant.
       | 
       | Of course the phone OS people are going to do this. Judging from
       | a few years of Live PD, every single person getting pulled over
       | never ever has a valid ID, but always always has a cell phone
       | that they clutch like their life depended on it.
       | 
       | Anything in the article is just a detail that is being hashed
       | out.
        
         | rastafang wrote:
         | > Hey, at least they're not requiring a chip implant.
         | 
         | Baby steps...
        
       | jasonpbecker wrote:
       | The tone of this article is bizarre, ignoring the fact that Apple
       | is implementing an ISO standard. It's interesting that states
       | interpreted this conversation as a procurement conversation,
       | since it's not clear the government is being asked to buy
       | anything but instead to see where they are on the mDL standard
       | and whether they'd be interested in participating in Apple's
       | early phase release of support for that standard.
       | 
       | The information is useful, but the whole framing is very strange
       | and conspiratorial that's not supported by the emails or the
       | facts.
        
         | lotsofpulp wrote:
         | One formula for low hanging clickbait is <large organization> +
         | <conspiratorial topic> = plausible deniability for exploring
         | option of malicious intent regardless of lack of evidence. And
         | due to their success, tech companies make for great candidates
         | for <large organization>.
        
           | jonas21 wrote:
           | This is also important to keep in mind when reading articles
           | about less well-liked companies, e.g. Facebook, Amazon, etc.
        
             | fsflover wrote:
             | So Apple joined them now it seems.
        
           | 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
           | Who invented "clickbait". What is the purpose of "clickbait".
           | 
           | Non-profits like MuckRock are to blame. They are not selling
           | advertising, but clickbait has nothing to do with
           | advertising.
           | 
           | Moreover, tech companies have nothing to do with clickbait
           | nor advertising. They are not spreading clickbait like non-
           | profits that submit FOIA requests. Tech companies do not
           | profit from clickbait. Tech companies have sources of non-
           | advertising revenue and legitimate business purposes that
           | benefit society. Unlike non-profits making FOIA requests that
           | spread clickbait.
           | 
           | In 2012, EFF filed over 200 FOIA requests through MuckRock,
           | for information about drone usage. EFF should stop
           | participating in these clickbait campaigns.
           | 
           | We should be thanking tech companies not scrutinising them.
           | Tech companies mind their own business, they do not try to
           | learn what their users/customers are doing. Tech companies
           | respect our privacy. These non-profits submitting FOIA
           | requests are a nuisance. They do not respect the privacy of
           | Apple and governments. Both deserve to be left alone, to do
           | their work in private.
           | 
           | Why don't people trust tech companies. They have done nothing
           | wrong.
           | 
           | A conspiracy requires two or more actors. Thus, if the topic
           | must be "conspiratorial", then the formula should be
           | 
           | <large organisation> + <co-conspirator> [+ <conspirator> ..]
           | + <conspiratorial topic> = plausible deniability for
           | exploring option of malicious intent regardless of lack of
           | evidence
           | 
           | Apple is the large organisation. The states are the co-
           | conspirators. A non-profit submitting FOIA requests.
           | Definitely clickbait.
        
         | joekrill wrote:
         | Did you read the emails, though? They certainly don't sound
         | like simply asking about "where they are on the mDL standard".
         | They are asking for NDAs to be signed - why is that necessary
         | if this is just about the progress of implementing an ISO
         | standard?
         | 
         | And there's this from CA:
         | 
         | > The agreement I've been provided goes beyond a POC and
         | appears to create more of a long term relationship.
        
           | kelnos wrote:
           | I agree that it's interesting and useful, but the article
           | also tries to spread some FUD about this being "Apple's
           | standard" when it's not (with some fearmongering rhetoric
           | around "what about Android?", "what about other competing
           | systems we haven't heard of yet?"); it's an ISO standard for
           | mobile driver's licenses. I'm actually surprised and pleased
           | that Apple has decided to go with a standard instead of doing
           | their own thing, as usual.
           | 
           | But the author of the article either a) can't be bothered to
           | do some basic research about the topic she's writing about,
           | or b) is deliberately stirring up (fake) controversy to
           | increase engagement. Either thing is pretty bad.
        
           | crooked-v wrote:
           | > They are asking for NDAs to be signed - why is that
           | necessary if this is just about the progress of implementing
           | an ISO standard?
           | 
           | I'd assume there's something in there about Apple sharing
           | their product roadmap and planning, so they can get all the
           | ducks in a row for a unified launch rather than support
           | coming in piecemeal.
        
         | tester89 wrote:
         | Sorry, which ISO standard?
        
           | CalChris wrote:
           | ISO 18013-5 mDL mobile driver's license standard
           | 
           | https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-
           | first...
        
             | judge2020 wrote:
             | Would be nice if these standards were open. Can't audit it
             | until it's introduced in iOS 15.x, I guess.
             | 
             | Edit for reference:
             | https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso-
             | iec:18013:-5:dis:ed-...
        
               | skissane wrote:
               | Having a look at your link, I see section A.3.10 is
               | proposing the use case "Vote or register to vote".
               | 
               | Given how politically controversial the issue of voter ID
               | is in some places (especially the US), I'm wondering if
               | this this ISO standard is going to get mixed up in that
               | political controversy.
        
         | lscotte wrote:
         | As predicted. say anything that casts Apple in a negative light
         | here on HN and get instantly modded down. It's OK, I expected
         | it.
        
           | user-the-name wrote:
           | You talk about a "reality distortion field", but you are the
           | one here who is just making things up.
        
           | Lamad123 wrote:
           | These sheeple become wolves with sharp teeth when defending
           | their. "Bottle of mine, it's you I've always wanted! Bottle
           | of mine, why was I ever decanted?"
        
       | blitzar wrote:
       | I am no fan of digital ID's but did he really need a FOIA request
       | to break open the idea that Apple were thinking of adding drivers
       | license to their native app and talking to the DVLA in various
       | states about it?
       | 
       |  _> "How did it happen? Why had I or no one ever heard of it,
       | given I know a lot of folks in the government tech space?"_
       | 
       | Apparently this guy doesnt know much ... but enough to waste some
       | peoples time with useless FOIA requests.
       | 
       |  _UK shows off prototype of digital iPhone driving license using
       | Apple's Wallet app - May. 13th 2016 11:06 am PT [1]_
       | 
       |  _Louisiana, where I live, was the first state to roll out a
       | digital driver 's license on July 3, 2018, and a few other states
       | are working on similar initiatives. The app that you use in
       | Louisiana is called LA Wallet. [2]_
       | 
       | [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2016/05/13/uk-digital-driving-
       | lice... [2] https://www.iphonejd.com/iphone_jd/2018/07/review-la-
       | wallet....
        
         | johnm212 wrote:
         | > Apparently this guy doesnt know much ... but enough to waste
         | some peoples time with useless FOIA requests.
         | 
         | I think this is really useful.
         | 
         | Apple and Microsoft have some of the most sophisticated
         | BD/partnership teams in the world.
         | 
         | Many companies who partner with Apple use an internal codeword
         | and don't let others within the company know the client, terms
         | of the deal, or the scope of the work.
         | 
         | Being able to see how Apple is approaching these deals is
         | really interesting and valuable. They are going into 50 states
         | and dealing with the DMV. The DMV has a reputation of being
         | disorganized and not very technical. Apple has the opposite
         | reputation. We are getting a front-row seat into how
         | "disruption" happens.
         | 
         | Even if partnership deals don't get you excited, having
         | transparency into how private companies do business with the
         | government is almost always a good thing.
        
           | azinman2 wrote:
           | And what did we learn? Not a whole lot. Just a pretty regular
           | plain process asking for meeting and setting up some articles
           | of understanding to implement an ISO standard, with the
           | expected twist that it was under NDA until the public
           | announcement.
        
         | tw600040 wrote:
         | //I am no fan of digital ID's
         | 
         | Why not? What's not to like about it? if it can be implemented
         | in a reasonably foolproof way? Isn't being able to ditch the
         | wallet a huge win?
        
           | zentiggr wrote:
           | Hit the nail on the head: "if it can be implemented...?"
           | 
           | We're talking 50 individual state governments here. We all
           | know that federal, state, and local govt IT practices are
           | basically troubled at best, disastrously shoddy at worst, the
           | only way I would accept this idea is if it was a completely
           | optional, user-chosen, option for an ID.
           | 
           | I would want at least ten years of first adopters getting
           | their lives shafted and/or stolen and/or stalked and/or
           | breached before I'd ever think of even using the optional
           | service.
           | 
           | Yes, little trust.
        
             | gumby wrote:
             | It's an ISO standard.
             | 
             | As the experience of Estonia shows, a digital ID can be
             | very useful and effective, but does take some work (they
             | had a big revocation effort to manage, which they were able
             | to do so because their country is so small).
             | 
             | Bigger countries such a Germany have basically punted on
             | this issue.
             | 
             | I'm a big fan and disappointed that California isn't in the
             | vanguard.
        
               | Karunamon wrote:
               | And as we all know, standards are implemented faithfully
               | and to-the-letter in real life. /s
               | 
               | What's the problem this actually solves for the average
               | person? Obviating a physical card?
        
               | notJim wrote:
               | It's so funny to me that HN is so skeptical of technology
               | sometimes. Why build the internet when you get all the
               | information you need at the local library? Why have cars
               | when my horse provides companionship and transportation
               | at the same time?
               | 
               | To answer the question though, since Apple Pay now works
               | almost everywhere, my ID is one of the only cards I still
               | need to carry. If I had a digital ID, I don't think I'd
               | need to carry a wallet anymore.
        
               | gumby wrote:
               | I don't think of HN as a "technology fan site" but people
               | who have to deal with this stuff every day. Some caution,
               | especially based on experience, is warranted.
               | 
               | > To answer the question though, since Apple Pay now
               | works almost everywhere, my ID is one of the only cards I
               | still need to carry. If I had a digital ID, I don't think
               | I'd need to carry a wallet anymore.
               | 
               | Where do you live? I currently live in California so only
               | carry ID when driving or (more recently) when planning to
               | enter certain buildings, like federal buildings or
               | airports. Otherwise I don't bother and it hasn't been a
               | problem for me.
               | 
               | Sometimes people do ask for ID (or an SSN) but when I
               | politely say "I'm sorry I don't have one" they typically
               | want to do business with me so magically don't need any
               | info.
               | 
               | I'm clearly over drinking age and don't need controlled
               | prescriptions.
        
               | kelnos wrote:
               | As someone who has been building software for 20+ years
               | now, I know how it fails and how it can make people's
               | lives miserable. I know how developers cut corners and
               | how quality always takes a back seat to other business
               | concerns. I know how technology can erode privacy, or be
               | used as a tool for governments to exact more control on
               | their citizens.
               | 
               | I'm probably more skeptical of technology in everyday
               | life than your average non-technical person.
               | 
               | > _Apple Pay now works almost everywhere_
               | 
               | I live in a city, and Apple/Google Pay definitely does
               | not work anywhere near everywhere (even after more
               | businesses went contactless due to COVID). I wouldn't
               | think of leaving home without physical credit cards.
               | 
               | (I was at a bar this weekend. Ironically I could not pay
               | my tab with my phone, but their photobooth took Apple &
               | Google Pay.)
        
               | gumby wrote:
               | Yes, I leave my DL my gf's car (which annoys her no end)
               | as that's the only place I would need it. I don't carry a
               | wallet any more.
        
               | sofixa wrote:
               | Yes, and also enabling not-physical validation (e.g. you
               | could open a bank account or w/e similarly strict thing
               | online, with your identity being verified automatically).
               | It's convenient and saves time.
        
               | beambot wrote:
               | The US still doesn't have wide-spread use of chip & pin
               | on credit cards. Innovation & adoption of digital
               | identity in this country is unlikely to be rapid.
        
               | jackson1442 wrote:
               | > The US still doesn't have wide-spread use of chip & pin
               | on credit cards
               | 
               | That's not really the case anymore. The new struggle is
               | contactless. I can count on my hands how many times I've
               | had my current debit card swiped (which is good since its
               | stripe is looking like shit by now).
               | 
               | Gas stations are finally implementing chip transactions
               | (the deadline is Oct 2021 iirc), which fortunately
               | generally includes a contactless reader.
               | 
               | But alas, we'll likely see the same problems with digital
               | ID that we have with REAL ID.
        
           | kelnos wrote:
           | > _if it can be implemented in a reasonably foolproof way?_
           | 
           | With my wallet, I run the risk of losing my ID or having it
           | get stolen.
           | 
           | With an ID on my phone, I still have those risks, but now I
           | also have the risk of dropping the phone and breaking it, as
           | well as the battery dying. Not to mention just some random
           | software glitch breaking things.
           | 
           | > _Isn 't being able to ditch the wallet a huge win?_
           | 
           | For all but the most trivial of trips outside my home (where
           | I expect to need ID), I doubt I would leave my physical ID at
           | home, ever. And if I have to carry it as a backup, why have
           | the digital ID at all?
        
         | colordrops wrote:
         | What an odd idea that FOIA requests are a waste of some
         | employee's time, considering the vast amount of waste in the
         | system already. Anything that can be released with an FOIA
         | request should never have been locked behind closed doors in
         | the first place. Locking public information up is shady and is
         | the true reason that is wasting everyone's time.
        
           | throaway46546 wrote:
           | Doesn't the FOIA requester have to pay for those employee's
           | time anyways?
        
             | dhosek wrote:
             | It varies depending on the agency, the scope of the request
             | and the purpose of the request. For just one example,
             | here's the State of Illinois FOIA FAQ:
             | 
             | https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/FOIA/Documents/FOIA_Frequentl
             | y...
        
             | lnxg33k1 wrote:
             | Taxpayers already do with their contribution to the country
             | budgets, in EU you can submit FOIA for free to governments
             | entity and to any private company who received government
             | funding, it's a matter of public interest and if you
             | receive my money (as taxpayer) then you put into account
             | the fact that as a citizen I might request some answers
        
         | siruncledrew wrote:
         | >"How did it happen? Why had I or no one ever heard of it,
         | given I know a lot of folks in the government tech space?"
         | 
         | I had a good LOL at that too. I remember people in uni were
         | even talking about this in a business course like 10 years ago.
         | This is not like a groundbreaking idea to digitize an ID.
        
         | sumthinprofound wrote:
         | > I am no fan of digital ID's but did he really need a FOIA
         | request to break open the idea that Apple were thinking of
         | adding drivers license to their native app and talking to the
         | DVLA in various states about it?
         | 
         | He would need an FOIA request to each state DMV for
         | documentation on the agencys' responses to Apple and any
         | internal deliberation on the matter.
        
       | clairity wrote:
       | state/federal agencies should never use any third-party software
       | that exfiltrates any personal data of residents (especially
       | google, which already infests governments & schools). it should
       | be self-evident that this creates an irresistable incentive for
       | the state and corporations to consolidate power, capital and
       | influence against the populace.
        
         | Loughla wrote:
         | >especially google, which already infests governments & schools
         | 
         | Working in schools, I can assure you, google classroom and all
         | the accompanying apps are not some cabal from the schools.
         | They're free. That's the incentive.
         | 
         | Also, I would ask, what is the other option? That the
         | government builds and maintains specific programs for every
         | function? How okay are you with taxes going up quite a bit?
         | Because they will need to in order for the public sector to
         | compete for talent with the private sector.
         | 
         | My opinion is that these sorts of things don't need to be
         | electronic, as paper is more secure anyway. But maybe I'm a
         | Luddite. At the very least, I am privileged enough to have a
         | career that allows me the flexibility to interact with
         | government agencies if I need to. If I was still working
         | retail, I could see how online services would definitely be a
         | plus in time saved.
        
           | clairity wrote:
           | yes, the government should generally build the software they
           | need to support essential functions for the populace, which
           | certainly can include open-source/collaboratively-developed
           | software, even the paid kind. we shouldn't allow government
           | to decide to pay for software by gutting individual privacy
           | and liberty. that goes counter to the spirit of our
           | inalienable rights.
           | 
           | also, "taxes will go up" arguments are at best naive. taxes
           | (amounts/rates) have little correlation with supporting the
           | essential needs of government. they're primarily employed to
           | generate leverage, (unfair) economic gain, and power. public
           | sector pay is uncompetitive because politicians and
           | bureaucrats don't find competitive pay to serve those
           | purposes.
           | 
           | but yes, paper is perfectly fine technology for most
           | educational purposes, relatively secure and private
           | intrinsically.
        
             | toomuchtodo wrote:
             | Due to how education authority is distributed and
             | entrenched in the US, it is exceptionally unlikely they
             | have the competency to build the software tooling they need
             | for essential functions. Khan Academy tried to provide this
             | service, but it appears there's been very little uptake.
             | It's even worse if you're a startup, with horrendously long
             | and tortured sales cycles and your contract at the whim of
             | career admins and politicians.
             | 
             | Charter schools as the developers or consumers of such
             | software, as well as homeschoolers, would see better
             | outcomes imho. Retooling public schooling apparatus is a
             | lost cause (although there is likely some small impact to
             | be realized if you're a technologist in a position where
             | you can deliver disproportionate impact to your local
             | institution).
        
               | clairity wrote:
               | yes, no doubt the challenges are significant, given the
               | centrality of public education in local, state, and even
               | national politics, but policy (slowly, piecemeal) got us
               | into this problem, and perhaps only policy (after a long
               | cycle of learning & debate) can get us out.
               | 
               | the main point is that a key (hopefully self-evident)
               | principle is that our liberties shouldn't be for sale at
               | any price. if that means states/localities need to
               | develop software (and software development as a
               | competency), so be it. political winds can change.
               | 
               | but as has been pointed out, it's not even clear that we
               | really need much new technology, when existing tech seems
               | to be perfectly satisfactory, if unexciting. the mass
               | distance-learning experiment we just experienced seems
               | largely a failure. turns out learning, while central, is
               | only one of many educational concerns, and computer-based
               | learning is at best augmentative, not primary (unlike,
               | say, school administration systems).
        
       | monksy wrote:
       | Good to see the IL was direct in rejecting the idea of an NDA.
       | Meetings like this should not be hidden from public view since it
       | involves decisions that affect the constituents.
       | 
       | Also, Apple seems to have this backwards: The states don't
       | operate on their product schedule. Nor should they.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | perf1 wrote:
       | Is the end Goal to make the internet only accessible via Digital
       | ID and kill of the anonymity?
        
         | tw600040 wrote:
         | I don't think that is the end goal. But obviously we need
         | protections to make sure this doesn't lead to that case.
        
         | ezfe wrote:
         | You could ask the same about Apple Pay: "Is the end Goal to
         | make Apple Pay the only payment method supported on the
         | internet and kill credit card numbers"
         | 
         | Not only is there nothing to support your claim, there's no
         | reason to believe this would be the next step if your claim was
         | accurate. Instead, they'd just...require ID on the internet,
         | it's not like that's not currently possible.
        
           | leecb wrote:
           | Is the end Goal to make conversation only accessible via the
           | telephone and kill off in-person conversation?
        
           | sneak wrote:
           | There's lots to support his claim. You can't use Homepods
           | without an iCloud account, you can't get an iCloud account
           | without an Apple ID, and you can't get an Apple ID without
           | providing a phone number and email address.
        
             | [deleted]
        
         | dwaite wrote:
         | The (eventual) goal is not to kill off anonymity, but to better
         | support user control of data and thereby give more anonymity.
         | 
         | You should be able to prove your age to buy liquor, without
         | disclosing any other information (including your name or birth
         | date). That should work without the government or any other
         | party knowing you. But we are still on the road to get there.
         | 
         | There are numerous other efforts for decentralized identity
         | systems where the user 'holds' digitally signed credentials and
         | presents them under consent. While most parties realize that
         | reducing data release and supporting anonymity are important
         | objectives, the different efforts (and participants) have
         | different priorities.
         | 
         | Some efforts, like Smart Health Cards, do not support selective
         | disclosure of information, instead just supporting digital
         | medical documents as signed data. This was a scope reduction to
         | get a system out more quickly for COVID vaccination
         | credentials.
         | 
         | Mobile drivers licenses support selective disclosure, but many
         | privacy controls are really being implemented via
         | certification, where compatible reader devices are being
         | limited to those who certify that they discard data after use.
         | 
         | There are stronger primitives like Anonymous Credentials [1] ,
         | which also make the cryptography itself unlinkable, and
         | predicate proofs which let you present answers to questions
         | without presenting the underlying information. However,
         | standardizing and deploying such crypto at scale takes years.
         | 
         | [1] http://cs.brown.edu/people/alysyans/papers/cl01a.pdf
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | duxup wrote:
       | This makes sense to me. Apple wants to have their wallet app hold
       | some state IDs so they reach out to states to talk about how it
       | might work or not work with them.
       | 
       | The quotes from the technologist in the article just seem kinda
       | random. I feel like those would be the basis for an article ...
       | once you know them, but nothing in that article answers any of
       | them or tell me that any of them are a problem.
        
       | bingohbangoh wrote:
       | Well yeah, you can put your driver's license in your apple wallet
       | in some states now.
        
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