[HN Gopher] The Kidney Project successfully tests a prototype bi...
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The Kidney Project successfully tests a prototype bioartificial
kidney
Author : 72f988bf
Score : 353 points
Date : 2021-09-28 06:18 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (pharmacy.ucsf.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (pharmacy.ucsf.edu)
| varshithr wrote:
| There is a lot of malpractice in developing countries like China
| & India wrt black market kidney trade. I wish this becomes
| mainstream.
| random314 wrote:
| 650K USD investment is so little for something so important!
|
| Meanwhile, I just read that a recruiting startup raised 100M $ in
| investment.
| therein wrote:
| There is no issue that is too expensive for humanity. If the
| COVID hysteria has shown us anything, it is that we could have
| made ANYTHING a global priority.
|
| Hunger in Africa, no problem. Homelessness or global poverty,
| could have easily brainwashed the public into rallying behind
| that cause.
|
| It was just a matter of choice. All our problems are allowed to
| become that by our useless rulers. And I'm not talking about
| the ones we "elect", but the ones that have their own different
| priorities. They only care about their eugenicist fervor.
| DantesKite wrote:
| A disease that spreads like Covid but basically destroys your
| kidneys would probably lead to greater funding for kidney
| research. True.
| [deleted]
| Jensson wrote:
| Or imagine if the world just went together to try to build
| fusion reactors. Spending on ITER is 2 billion a year, why
| not 20 billion a year? We would probably learn a ton about
| different ways to do it and maybe innovate stuff, maybe we
| would have already solved the global energy crisis if we had
| a 20 billion budget for it 10 years ago? Or even better,
| imagine if instead of spending hundreds of millions to make
| ads that just serves to make people spend more on
| consumption, maybe that could be used to make reactors?
| People would go into research for the money, they would train
| hard to get the best reactor jobs, it would be the hot new
| market! All that could be reality, but no, society says "ads
| are more important, without ads people might forget to spend
| their money and that would be a tragedy!".
| tsimionescu wrote:
| While I also bemoan the massive waste of money and talent
| on actively harmful things like ads, I think fusion is a
| pretty huge waste of resources as well, at least given our
| current understanding of the universe and somewhat
| plausible technologies. Here[0] is an article explaining
| some fundamental problems that make fusion very unlikely to
| ever be a good source of energy.
|
| Biomedical research seems like a much more relevant and
| much more likely to advance rapidly given more investment
| area of knowledge. Especially since, even if we were given
| a free energy machine today, we still wouldn't be able to
| cure the vast majority of human diseases, nor be much
| closer to even understanding a good proportion of them.
|
| [0] https://thebulletin.org/fusion-energy-nuclear-fusion/
| hkt wrote:
| We're entering the age of viable artificial organs. I'll take
| that over flying cars. Amazing work.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Artificial hearts already work since quite a while.
|
| It is amazing, but real organs can sustain themself -
| artificial mechanical ones not. And need surgery for
| replacement.
|
| I have my hopes on artificial real organs and see the
| mechanical ones as a intermediate solution.
| akoluthic wrote:
| A miraculous breakthrough could be on two fronts: artificial
| "meat organs" for those whose life is at immediate risk and
| need a transplant, and regenerative biotech/medicine to
| repair those with damage without requiring surgery.
|
| Either way, implanted devices can be a good bridge from our
| current situation.
| esturk wrote:
| And they are. One of the other 6 finalists were doing
| "Genetically-engineered pig kidney xenotransplantation".
| The idea is to "Genetically engineered pig kidneys that
| will increase the supply of transplantable organs by
| eliminating the antibody barrier to xenotransplantation."
| kiba wrote:
| I would like a backup heart, but not sure if it makes sense
| from an engineering standpoint.
| bobmaxup wrote:
| For sudden cardiac death? Isn't that mostly caused by
| arrhythmia? So a prophylactic pacemaker maybe? Isn't that
| already a thing?
| kiba wrote:
| I imagined damage to the heart muscles or blocked blood
| vessel.
| krageon wrote:
| The threat model could be a freak heart stabbing. In
| which case a backup heart somewhere else (and some truly
| earthshattering breakthroughs in fast clotting) might
| make sense.
| saalweachter wrote:
| My dream technology would be a way to make my body just
| ... stop, if Something Bad happened, like all my blood
| falling out, until someone stumbled upon my non-rotting
| corpse, patched the holes, and filled it back up.
|
| It's such bullshit that if I stop living for even a
| little bit my body melts into useless slag like an engine
| running without oil.
| MayeulC wrote:
| > Artificial hearts already work since quite a while
|
| Frankly I wouldn't want one for $1B.
|
| IIRC the longest recorded survival with an artificial rate
| was about 3 months for a continuous flow 'pulse-less' device
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart
|
| So yeah, they "work", but are still far from perfect.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Oh. I assumed they performed better by now.
|
| So basically getting a artificial heart as a replacement
| right now, means taking part in developing science and
| medicine, but not really realistically with any hopes of
| living on.
| the-dude wrote:
| _In a preclinical model_. Whatever that is, maybe it is a mouse
| after all?
| poulpy123 wrote:
| I would suppose it's working "in vitro" with a technical model
| of blood circulation
| hutzlibu wrote:
| It is smartphone sized. It wont fit into a mouse.
| the-dude wrote:
| It is a test, it is not said it is implanted _into_ the
| model.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| I rather would suspect a pig or ape, as the little blood a
| mouse has, would not allow for real testing.
| bborud wrote:
| As someone who has gone through a kidney transplant, this is
| actually a bit depressing since progress in this field is
| painfully slow.
|
| I have seen these articles pop up at regular intervals for a
| decade now, and if we're going to be honest: nothing much has
| happened during that decade. This is still an under-funded area
| where nothing more than "pre-clinical" prototypes keep getting
| press - and then nothing.
|
| I used to be active on various forums for kidney patients (one of
| which had more than 27.000 members last I checked). I'm not very
| active anymore because it is too depressing to read about people
| who are less fortunate than me (I have good health, live in a
| country with socialized medicine and my total cost per year for
| keeping the transplanted healthy is less than $300). For instance
| non-affluent people living in the US.
|
| I've lost count of how many americans I've known who have ended
| up in a place where taking their own life seems like the best
| option. Either because they are tired of finding money for the
| medications that keep them alive, tired of navigating
| bureaucracy, because they don't want to drag their entire family
| into a financial hole, or because they are just physically
| exhausted. (Dialysis is time-consuming and slowly ruins your
| body)
|
| Take some time to think about that. Think about what it means
| that every so many months someone on a forum you frequent tells
| you "I've had it - I'm going to give up and die". It can be quite
| taxing if you allow yourself to care.
|
| So excuse me for being negative, but this isn't anything to be
| excited about. This is just a reminder that nothing much that
| actually has any impact is happening in this area.
|
| Please take some time to review the national statistics for the
| US and please consider becoming an organ donor.
|
| https://www.organdonor.gov/learn/organ-donation-statistics
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| As someone who has also gone through a kidney transplant I
| relate with you completely. I stopped visiting those websites
| because I too get overwhelmed with the content.
|
| I have taken my life circumstance to share my story and ask
| others to sign up to become an organ donor. It can change the
| life of someone and you can truly make a difference not only
| for a person but an entire family.
|
| I also look at this news as positive, Ill take anything no
| matter how slow the progress is. Decades ago before transplant
| techniques were developed my story would have ended (unless I
| had a twin) but its because of work like this I'm able to type
| this out right now. So perhaps a few decades from today someone
| will benefit from this technology and not have to go through
| what you and I did.
|
| Ill add the link in for the National Kidney Registry who do
| great work and if someone wants donate their cause can do so.
| https://www.kidneyregistry.org/
| pcj-github wrote:
| It's obviously a hard problem. As someone who used to do
| dialysis-access operations (AV fistulas/AV shunts), just
| looking at their diagram and seeing 3 location with a
| plastic::tissue interface (artery, vein, bladder) is a massive
| hurdle alone. The connection between the artery and the device
| will stenose, the connection between the vein and the device
| will clot (despite whatever is in the press release, I can
| guarantee it will). And then exposing the entire apparatus to
| the bladder - it _will_ get infected, and then the whole thing
| needs to be removed.
|
| So, even if they got the actual device perfect, the realities
| of interfacing that with an actual person, for any reasonable
| length of time... Don't hold your breath.
|
| This is why kidney transplant is so great... it's all real
| tissue, even if you need lifelong antisuppression.
| paul7986 wrote:
| In September 2019 i was diagnosed with kidney function of 54
| percent (at 44) out of 100. It doesn't run in the family and my
| other prior condition was high cholesterol at 37 then at 40 i
| had some Gout attacks. I took a statin for the high cholesterol
| for a few years. I never took any other meds outside of a
| sleeping pill here and there (12 times in a few years). My
| kidney doc thinks my kidney damage was from medication i took
| so maybe it was the statin.
|
| After being diagnosed my doc said avoid taking all meds, which
| i did and do. I also went ahead and changed my diet where i
| drink 3 liters of water per day and cut out all pork and
| redmeatl, as well increased my fruits & vegetable intake. Also,
| avoid fatty foods and lost five to ten pounds (around 170
| 5'10). My kidney function as of just getting my results today
| is 79 out of 100(creatitine 1.1). Though my monthly test shows
| me the average to be in the low 70s usually. Not sure why it
| was higher this month..did lose a few pounds further.
|
| Overall Im thinking if I continue on with this lifestyle I may
| not have to go on dialysis for another 20 to 30 years possibly
| more. Yet its all in the air thus I constantly get it monitor
| each month to bi-monthly even if my doctor says that's not
| needed. She did say sure try changing your diet/lifestyle and
| see how it works. Some docs I hear will just say diet won't
| improve your kidney yet I joined a Facebook group where a guy's
| kidney was completely failed yet his wife revolutionized his
| diet and his function went from crazy low on dialysis to like
| 30 percent and off of dialysis.
|
| I am just sharing my experience with my kidney issues maybe it
| will help others .. maybe not. Im not here to argue just offer
| what has worked for me positively and many others in that
| Facebook group mentioned.
| nikkwong wrote:
| That's awesome to hear that youve gotten a transplant and are
| still in good health. I suspect that you didn't need one
| because of CKD caused by diabetes/blood pressure?
| bborud wrote:
| Probably high blood pressure for 15+ years, but at the point
| where this was discovered it was impossible to know for sure
| if it was the primary reason or a consequence of kidney
| failure. Fortunately, the blood pressure turned out to be
| easy to manage with medication.
|
| And after the transplant, things have gone exceptionally well
| and I live a completely normal lifet. I just need to down a
| fistful of pills every day :-)
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| Holy crap, that sounds exactly like mine. We dont know the
| reason why I had kidney failure and there was so much
| damage a bioposy would not be fruitful. The guess is blood
| pressure, but its not known.
| bborud wrote:
| Nephroschlerosis?
|
| If the experience taught me anything: make sure you start
| doing an annual health checkup with bloodwork every year
| or two starting in your 20s. It is likely I could have
| avoided this.
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| I dont know the term, but by the time we found out there
| was so much bruising on the kidney, couldnt do a biopsy
| as it would cause bleeding and further delay the
| transplant. I didnt want any more delays so I opted out
| of it after discussing with my doctor.
| 12bits wrote:
| I'm on my 7th year of having a transplanted kidney, having a
| scumbag disease that will eventually destroy my current one...
| I feel your cynicism. On the other hand this stuff still gives
| me hope, I dream of the days I don't need to start the day and
| end the day with meds... One day
| tapan_jk wrote:
| This is one of those things that you are hopeful it exists, but
| you also pray that people won't need.
| steve76 wrote:
| Prayer is the recognition you exist among something better. If
| you are Christian, you exist not because of a past mistake or
| chance, but because whatever is better could have a much easier
| time vaporizing you, but for whatever reason, decided not to.
| Don't expect it to mystically grow you a kidney. Do expect it
| to keep a drunken mob of organ vampires from taking yours.
|
| You're going in there. The people there are going to patch you
| up as best as they can. But your discomfort means very little.
| Do it, or die. God does it. God does it to himself. What do you
| think is in store for you? Think of it as just material waste
| we are dumping into a black hole, turning our local cosmic
| region into a place for pure ephemeral humans.
|
| I think I'm going to start saying people converted to
| Catholicism. Not little people. Big powerful people. Bill
| Gates. Elon Musk If they say "no, they didn't". I'm going to
| just say, "yes, they did. That's not up to them". Here's a
| third of all they own. It goes to Catholic institutions near
| where I live. After the tech guys, the baptist and protestants.
| Hollywood, the ugliest place in the world. And it's just a dry
| run for the godless lawless international fools who think they
| get to do whatever they want and tell everyone what to do.
| dsign wrote:
| The big problem being that prayer doesn't work.
| afroboy wrote:
| Well if prayer make you go through hard times and give you
| peace and hope instead of going into depressing than yes it
| does work.
| dsign wrote:
| Prayer doesn't prevent malfunctioning kidneys, yours or
| those of random strangers, as far as I know. So, it doesn't
| work.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| If prayer stops people forgetting about the problems of the
| world, I'd say it does.
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| Religion is considered by the common people to be true, by
| the wise to be false, and by the rulers to be useful.
| --Seneca
| dorkwood wrote:
| I've seen this quote before, but I haven't been able to
| find it myself. Which text is it from?
|
| Here's one from a letter to Lucilius. Seneca is easy to
| misquote.
|
| "Indeed, no man can be good without the help of God. Can
| one rise superior to fortune unless God helps him to
| rise? He it is that gives noble and upright counsel." -
| Seneca
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| Interesting! A lot of people on wikiquote[1] appear to
| believe it's a misattribution. I've only ever heard it
| secondhand.
|
| [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Seneca_the_Younger
| #.22Tru...
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| (In fact that's too cynical on Seneca's part. Religion is
| useful for, one imagines, the majority of it's member's,
| who gain among other things social connection and a
| safety net from it.)
| silicon2401 wrote:
| This is a generalization. Go on /r/exmuslim, /r/exjw, and
| /r/exmormon on reddit to find countless stories of people
| from whom religion provides quite the opposite of a
| safety net. If often as not creates a source of fear,
| emotional and physical danger, ostracization, and
| shunning. Not to mention extreme cases like honor
| killings. You may as well say North Korea gives you a
| safety net and community (as long as you ignore the ways
| that it doesn't).
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| I don't dispute that those things happen and are
| horrible, but I believe "as often as not" is incorrect.
| What's your sample? If your sample is a forum where
| people tell conversion-to-atheism stories, it's not
| representative. Almost of the religious people I've met
| feel that way about their church.
|
| Admittedly, my sample is surely not representative
| either. In particular people stuck in a church community
| against their will probably don't bring it up a lot with
| people they don't know very well.
|
| FWIW I'm an atheist. I recently wished I was able to
| invoke some kind of God concept while talking to a
| colleague who this year lost her mother, her boyfriend,
| and two other family members to Covid. I intend to look
| for something entitled Prayer for Atheists, if it exists.
| pak wrote:
| People already do need it! In the US alone, about a half
| million people are on dialysis. There are many health and
| functional consequences to both intermittent and peritoneal
| dialysis; they are not exactly benign treatments.
| jnsie wrote:
| It's so badly needed. For some US-centric perspective: "the
| almost 750,000 people who live with kidney failure are 1% of
| the U.S. Medicare population but account for roughly 7% of the
| Medicare budget." [0] This is obviously just one part of the
| issue; I don't need to describe how attritional and life-
| altering chronic kidney disease and, subsequently,
| hemo-/peritoneal-dialysis are.
|
| [0] https://pharm.ucsf.edu/kidney/need/statistics#:~:text=Costs
| ,....
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| Like the artificial bee that Amazon patented.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| How long does it last once implanted? Seems a little scarce on
| details, not sure if its a permanent fix or just supposed to keep
| you going until a transplant is found. Is it a replacement or a
| stop gap?
| hutzlibu wrote:
| That looks interesting, but the linked article is a bit short on
| details, but high on praise.
|
| For example I would like to know, if the goal is, to actually put
| this inside of people?
|
| Currently it is smartphone sized. That might work, but only if
| the person moves not much, because it does not seem flexible. And
| having a stiff smartphone in your body would mean moving like a
| old school robot. That still might beat the alternative, but
| would be a serious limitation. Maybe they get it smaller and more
| flexible - then I would be curious how long the bioreactor and
| hemofilter lasts, before they need replacement? Because that
| means dangerous surgery.
|
| So the first versions would be probably carried outside the body
| and connected to your arteries?
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| You know, I have never actually considered this aspect of
| "cyborg-life". Given how much I slouch at desks all day, yeh, a
| life saving kidney digging in my ribs would get annoying !
|
| I suspect it would just be an internal version of the parental
| "stop slouching dear". Users might report better backs as well
| as kidneys !
|
| And just to be clear, Science and medicine makes amazing
| advances each day and decade. I am astonished by the idea this
| even is close to working.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| " Users might report better backs as well as kidneys !"
|
| I doubt that. A healthy back needs twisting and bending in
| all directions.
| saalweachter wrote:
| I'm really having to rein in my SWE-desire to start
| pitching "what if we just" fixes to this thread.
| White_Wolf wrote:
| when you're in the situation where you need a kidney
| replacement uncomfortable positions are the least of your
| worries.
|
| Like you said: I'm amazed by the fact that were close to
| having a replacement. Not sure how many will be able to
| afford it but still. It's one step forward.
| walshemj wrote:
| And not having the side effects and ongoing costs of
| imunosupressant drugs - It will be very good for BAME
| communities that have problems with low % of compatible
| donors.
| chuckee wrote:
| To deal with the inflexibility, it could be encased in a soft
| artificial shell.
| NGRhodes wrote:
| I've seen the pain and eventual death 2 close family members
| have had to suffer due to Kidney failure and I also will face
| the same as my kidneys continue to gradually fail, the
| complications are bad and side effects can lead to death alone,
| the limitations of sometime like this artificial Kidney are
| absolutely miniscule compared to the benefits on offer.
| hpagey wrote:
| My kidneys are failing as well. I am currently being
| evaluated to be on transplant list. Artificial kidney is an
| exciting development. It wont replace the need for transplant
| but will definitely improve quality of life for people on
| dialysis.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| I wish all the best to you two!
| dignan wrote:
| This is actually an internal artificial kidney. There are other
| projects like you describe.
| https://pharm.ucsf.edu/kidney/device/faq has some helpful info
| about this.
|
| This would basically replace dialysis if they are able to
| achieve the numbers they quote (GFR of 20-30). Occasionally
| having a minor surgery is likely much safer and more affordable
| than dialysis.
| DSingularity wrote:
| Does it have to be implanted within the body?
| throwanem wrote:
| Leaving aside that it's very early days for this technology,
| kidneys aren't all that flexible, either. Kidney swelling or
| inflammation is as painful as it is (and it is _very_ painful)
| because the kidney is enclosed in a protective capsule of tough
| connective tissue, which makes it unable to increase
| significantly in total volume. (This is also why kidney
| swelling is a medical emergency, especially when bilateral and
| regardless of cause: in addition to being painful, severe
| swelling occludes blood vessels and causes tissue-killing
| ischemia, which can result in partial or total loss of
| function.)
|
| A kidney isn't all that different in length on the major axis
| from a smartphone, either, and in volume is larger besides.
| Speaking as someone with recurrent kidney trouble, if things
| _do_ get bad enough and I can 't get on the transplant list due
| to age or comorbidity, I'd rather take a chance on something
| like this than suffer the known drawbacks of periodic dialysis,
| especially the all but guaranteed progressive impairment of
| cognition.
| felipemnoa wrote:
| >>especially the all but guaranteed progressive impairment of
| cognition
|
| Could you expand a bit more on this? What causes the
| impairment in cognition?
| throwanem wrote:
| "Filtering the Evidence: Is There a Cognitive Cost of
| Hemodialysis?"
| (https://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/29/4/1087) reviews
| recent research and finds cognitive impairment both
| significant and prevalent as a side effect of in-center
| hemodialysis (as opposed to peritoneal dialysis, which is
| less harmful). It cites among other things an RCT result
| entitled "Cognitive impairment in hemodialysis patients is
| common" (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16864811/), which
| is frequently cited in studies and articles reviewing this
| phenomenon; the "Cited by" list on that page is a fertile
| ground for further review.
| michael1999 wrote:
| Dirty blood is toxic to many organs. The ears, eyes, and
| nose will all degrade along with the mind as kidneys fail.
| The worst is that dirty blood is toxic to the kidneys, so
| failing kidneys cause kidney failure.
| ambar123 wrote:
| Where is Lever....???
| speby wrote:
| While progress in this field has been slow, it's worth saying
| that if this technology continues to proceed towards success,
| this is not just a life-saver but a game-changer for humanity.
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| Could it not be kept outside the body?
| pak wrote:
| The major benefit to implanting it under the skin, as we do
| with pacemakers, is that doing without permanent holes or tubes
| through the skin reduces infection risk.
|
| Consider also the danger of having something dangling from your
| body that is powered by your arterial blood pressure (from a
| major artery, as the kidney is). A trip and fall could be
| instantly fatal.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| I had a kidney stent in for a few days while I healed from an
| operation. Let me tell you, it's a huge quality of life
| downer (obviously the medical operation outweighed the life
| style concern). You definitely don't want medical equipment
| dangling on the outside of your body if you can help it.
| saalweachter wrote:
| As someone who already stubs every stubable body part, I
| don't need new ones to bash into things.
| whitecrow90 wrote:
| i really hope they make it a reality, so many ppl need this, and
| will be such a major change in everyday life for them
| black_13 wrote:
| I read this and think of Philip K Dicks novel "the penultimate
| truth" they will be very expensive. Real problems like just
| inexpensive preventative care goes wanting.
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