[HN Gopher] iPhone remains findable after power off
___________________________________________________________________
iPhone remains findable after power off
Author : chetangoti
Score : 142 points
Date : 2021-09-29 12:50 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| Animats wrote:
| But if they actually turned off power, they'd lose track of where
| you are. They'd lose the tracking information needed for
| marketing. Can't have that.
|
| Does "airplane mode" still shut off all transmitters?
| gtirloni wrote:
| Do you have any evidence that location tracking actually works
| when the phone is turned off (even with the Find My Phone
| feature enabled)?
| jareklupinski wrote:
| it definitely could have been worded better:
|
| "You iPhone continues to report its location to Apple when it is
| powered off" or something
|
| seems software has gone back to extremely hostile user-facing
| strings, after about a decade of "oopsie doopsie our system had a
| crashie"
| avianlyric wrote:
| > You iPhone continues to report its location to Apple when it
| is powered off" or something
|
| This statement wouldn't be true. The iPhone broadcasts crypto
| keys over Bluetooth, which other I devices use to encrypt the
| detected location and upload to Apple.
|
| But the only thing capable of decrypting those encrypted
| payloads is other devices attached to the same iCloud Keychain.
|
| So Apple has no idea where your phone is, and there's also no
| guarantee that a location will ever be uploaded.
| kevinventullo wrote:
| "You think you really know what's going on?
|
| They passing laws where they can run up in your own home
|
| Cameras on your laptop, TV and your iPhone
|
| The battery don't come out, that means it's always on"
|
| - B.o.B., "Paper Route", 2013
|
| One might call him a conspiracy theory rapper. He once got in a
| Twitter feud with Neil deGrasse Tyson on whether the earth was
| flat.
| [deleted]
| mrtksn wrote:
| It's NOT an iOS 15 feature.
|
| I have an iPhone without a SIM card that I use as a test device
| and it happen that yesterday I left it in my backpack, together
| with an AirTag in the car. Shortly after I walked off, I got the
| AirTag notification as expected(the left behind notification).
| What I did not expect though, was to see the test iPhone also
| having an up to date location in the Find My app. That iPhone has
| no network connection, so I assumed that somehow it must have
| connected to my daily iPhone's hot spot.
|
| And today, I learn that iPhones are capable of sending location
| even when turned off. So I checked the Find My setting, it's
| right there on iOS 14.4.2 on iPhone 7.
|
| It's pretty cool, very aggressive tracking. Maybe we need clothes
| with faraday cage pockets for occasions when we don't like to be
| tracked.
| jaywalk wrote:
| It doesn't connect to your iPhone's hot spot, but your daily
| iPhone is able to detect the other iPhone's presence just like
| it detects AirTags and logs that info.
| mrtksn wrote:
| Yes but apparently other iPhones can also detect it and send
| the location just like with the AirTag even if the iPhone is
| turned off. That was a surprise.
| avianlyric wrote:
| Was the phone actually off or just missing a SIM card?
| elzbardico wrote:
| That's the whole point of the feature: being able to track
| a phone that has been turned off. If you're afraid of FBI,
| CIA or Mossad tracking you with this feature, you can
| disable this on settings
| mrtksn wrote:
| Nope, I'm happy to be tracked. I actually enabled Google
| Maps to track me all the time because I would like to be
| able to look back at Google Timeline[0] and see where I
| have been at particular time in the past.
|
| Since a few years, I'm in Turkey and I know that in this
| country the GSM operators track your location constantly
| and keep the records indefinitely. How do I know that?
| Well, in Turkey every SIM card is tied to a proven
| identity(ID scan is required even for pre-paid SIMs) and
| getting the GSM signal records to prove whereabouts of
| someone at particular time has become a standard practice
| on criminal cases. Everyone is well aware of being
| tracked by the govt. With Apple and Google, I at least
| get something out of it.
|
| [0]: https://timeline.google.com/
| EastOfTruth wrote:
| Everytime I will hear Apple talking about being pro-privacy, I
| will keep laughing.
| tartoran wrote:
| Wonder what else it does or reports to the homebase. Why stop at
| location data? It's weird how it the surveillance apparatus
| creeps up slowly and gets accepted without much protest. It's
| just like the proverbial frog in the boiling pot
| ajconway wrote:
| As stated in https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/find-my/
| Apple (or any other third parties) cannot access the actual
| location data in the Find My network directly. It is supposed to
| be only decryptable by your other devices.
|
| That is if you trust Apple to design and implement everything
| correctly.
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| > Ford flipped the switch which he saw was now marked "Mode
| Execute Ready" instead of the now old-fashioned "Access Standby"
| which had so long ago replaced the appallingly stone-aged "Off".
|
| - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
| chewmieser wrote:
| Apple is very clear that this is how things work now. They even
| give you a dialog prompt now to inform you of this change the
| first time you try to shut your device off -
| https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/07/ios-15-find-my-network-can-fi...
|
| I'm not sure why this is presented as some new thing, or a gotcha
| or whatever this is. We've known about it for months... And IMO,
| it's a positive change although it does sound a little weird.
| sneak wrote:
| "very clear" is an overstatement. TFA is an industry-leading
| expert expressing surprise at this state of affairs.
| notyourwork wrote:
| What is not clear about the message that says exactly what
| this?
| ElectronShak wrote:
| I'm generally of the impression that any phone with an
| unremovable battery is never truly "off" at any given time,
| unless the battery is totally damaged.
|
| PS: I like phones whose batteries are removable, currently use
| a Nokia Android with a removable one. One advantage is that
| when the phone drops down, it disintegrates, frame from
| battery, decreasing the overall impact on the phone.
| eth0up wrote:
| A fair impression to remain under, I think.
|
| I remember using a low-energy bluetooth scanner and noticing
| a strange mac that shouldn't have been present. I really
| wanted to know wtf was broadcasting it. I searched and
| searched looking in stupid places. Eventually I settled down
| and began thinking clearly and looked at my speaker. Yeah, it
| was as off as the power button could make it, though still
| on. A good toss across the multi-acre yard and the signal
| faded accordingly.
| Bilal_io wrote:
| Maybe they started showing the warnings recently, but this
| practice was in place for at least a few years. I remember
| reading an article by a journalist who was on a trip and his
| iPhone died. Later he discovered it still logged his locations,
| not only when off, but when dead (I assume the iPhone is
| designed to shut off with some juice left)
| macintux wrote:
| Logging locations and being remotely findable are two
| separate features.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| Agreed. Of all the messiness in iOS's settings app, it's
| honestly pretty easy to find the setting to turn this off
| (iCloud > Find My > Find My network). The Twitter thread almost
| reads like someone who's trying to not understand what's
| happening.
|
| Not to mention the fact that there's a reminder of this setting
| every time you turn your phone off, which can be tapped to
| disable this behavior.
| sixbrx wrote:
| Settings -> (Your Name/Apple ID ...) -> Find My -> Find My
| iPhone -> Find My Network in latest iOS.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Does 5 levels deep count as easy to find?
| Johnny555 wrote:
| The setting to tell my phone to turn all the way off when I
| turn it off is in under "iCloud" settings and is called "Find
| my network", and that's considered "pretty easy to find"?
| avianlyric wrote:
| No, the giant dialogue that appears when you turn off the
| phone, and tells you how to disable the feature is pretty
| easy to find.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| What did the parent poster mean when he said _" it's
| honestly pretty easy to find the setting to turn this off
| (iCloud > Find My > Find My network)"_? Or are you
| disagreeing with him that it's "pretty easy to find" in
| the settings?
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| Wow, first I've heard of it. Seems to be enabled by default too
| -- I think users definitely are not "clear" about it.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| The "slide to power off" prompt literally says "iPhone
| Findable after Power Off >" right under it every time, but
| 99% of users will never see it or care about this feature
| because no one ever turns their phone off.
|
| But if you're one of those few people who does turn the phone
| off, it says right there, and you can tap on it to shut down
| to unfindable state this time instead.
|
| Note that it requires a passcode to disable, which is key to
| this feature. If someone steals your phone it will remain
| findable unless they open it up and pull the battery.
| illegalsmile wrote:
| Not that it really matters but mine does not say "iPhone
| Findable after Power Off" under the slider and I have find
| my iPhone enabled on 14.8.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| 14.8 won't be findable after power off, it's an iOS 15
| feature. When "turned off" it can maintain an occasional
| bluetooth beacon like AirTags which other iPhones pick
| up.
| illegalsmile wrote:
| Thanks, that makes sense. I don't immediately upgrade so
| I haven't seen that yet.
| kennywinker wrote:
| Running 14.7.1 and the Find My network setting says that
| it will enable my iphone to be found when turned off, but
| the power off screen does not say anything about that.
| avianlyric wrote:
| You might want to double check the text under that toggle
| in 14.7. I'm pretty sure it says:
|
| "Participating in the Find My network let's you locate
| your phone even when it's _offline_ "
|
| It don't it says anything about what happens if your
| phone is off.
| dunham wrote:
| Which model? I don't see this on my XR (iOS 15), maybe it
| doesn't have the hardware for it?
|
| > If someone steals your phone it will remain findable
| unless they open it up and pull the battery.
|
| Or drop the phone into a faraday bag?
| hug wrote:
| > I don't see this on my XR (iOS 15), maybe it doesn't
| have the hardware for it?
|
| It does not. iPhones 11 or newer.
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| I turn off my phone but never that way. It either runs out
| of power or I hard reset it. Either way I don't want it
| spying on me.
| ArchOversight wrote:
| > Either way I don't want it spying on me.
|
| It literally isn't spying on you, it's allow you to find
| your after you've lost it.
| serf wrote:
| >It literally isn't spying on you, it's allow you to find
| your after you've lost it.
|
| almost no mobile device has a feature that is 'literally
| spying on you'.
|
| the problem is when the devices have so many features
| that they can be easily turned into a consummate spy
| device by any nearby paying agency.
|
| in other words : no mobile device is spying on you, but
| the people who control them definitely do, and they're
| often willing to sell the rights to do so to groups that
| are poorly vetted -- using a device with less
| capabilities necessarily gives the controlling party less
| options by which to gather data for whatever reasons they
| may be compelled to do so.
|
| so.. the phone, lacking sovereignty , does not spy on
| you; but it's a big leaky gps/imu-enabled microphone
| camera that sits in your pocket or purse all day, and the
| list of groups with access to that leaky data-pipe
| increases every day with little concern and little reform
| regarding data retention policies and ownership rights.
| avianlyric wrote:
| I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. Clearly an
| sophisticated electronic devices full of sensors and
| radios can be used to track you, I don't think anyone on
| HN disputes that. But that issues seems rather orthogonal
| to topic at hand.
| staplers wrote:
| Either way I don't want it spying on me.
|
| Unfortunately iOS is filled with call-homes to apple
| servers with all sorts of telemetry data. You can "turn
| off" exact lat/long coordinates (location data), however
| your cell provider can triangulate your position and
| apple can triangulate via wifi/other Apple products. Read
| about how Airtags work.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| This is nothing to do with iOS.
|
| A cell provider can triangulate any phone connected to
| its network.
| katbyte wrote:
| > Either way I don't want it spying on me.
|
| then turn it off? most people will want this, and for
| those who don't it's easy to turn off.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Hard reset doesn't have anything to do with this since it
| turns back on afterward. As far as letting the battery
| die, I think it's going to be much more common that
| someone loses their phone, the battery is dead, and this
| helps them figure out "whoops, I left it at the bar we
| went to after dinner."
|
| The power reserve for this only lasts a few hours, but if
| you don't want that feature you can turn it off.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Some Android phone do this too to let NFC being usable when the
| phone is off.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Yeah, there's a reasonably visible message "warning" you of
| this, which has a prompt to turn it off.
|
| I actually thought this was _very_ old, added a year or so ago.
| I guess it got delayed?
|
| I've had two phones stolen (right out of my hands) that were
| immediately shut down and sim cards ejected to prevent them
| from being tracked. While I'm sure this feature wouldn't help
| me get back a phone, I hope it does deter this.
|
| Edit: I think this was announced back in 2019 WWWDC
| https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluet...
| ?
| baby wrote:
| It was just added a few days ago, not a year ago.
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| The police in my country wouldn't even bother to check, they
| have rapists and drug dealers to deal with.
| roywiggins wrote:
| Your police investigate rapes? Ours don't.
|
| https://www.wnyc.org/story/nypd-misled-public-about-
| response...
| gremloni wrote:
| This comment could not be anymore hyperbolic.
| rurp wrote:
| Yeah I'm baffled by all of the comments saying that this is
| great as an anti-theft feature. I don't know where people
| live that that's the case, but I sure as heck have never
| known police in the US to give a damn about $1000 property
| crimes. They don't care about $20000 home robberies and car
| thefts, even with strong video or other evidence. I can't
| imagine they're going to start chasing down criminals to
| get a used phone back unless it's for the mayor's kid or
| something.
| sparker72678 wrote:
| It serves as anti-theft insofar as it makes it more of a
| pain generally to be in possession of a stolen phone.
|
| But yeah the police are not going to go get your iPhone
| back for you.
| krrrh wrote:
| That aside, there was a massive decrease in iPhone thefts
| when activation locking was introduced with the original
| "find my".
|
| Something like this could further deter the portion of
| thefts that end up funnelling through shady resellers.
| handrous wrote:
| Police in the US don't investigate any but _very_ expensive
| property crime against individuals, either. And I don 't
| actually know that they investigate _very_ expensive
| property crime--I just assume they do. Certainly mid-five-
| figures of theft from multiple locations by one crew with
| tons of video evidence isn 't enough to get them
| interested, beyond taking the report.
|
| ... unless your country _is_ the US, in which case, yeah,
| true.
| EastOfTruth wrote:
| > And IMO, it's a positive change although it does sound a
| little weird.
|
| It's a negative change that I didn't know about and yes, it is
| weird/wrong.
| rewtraw wrote:
| I prefer to be able to locate my lost phone even if its
| powered off.
| mavrc wrote:
| i'd like to be able to store a phone on the shelf with a
| properly conditioned battery, to be able to disable the
| radios during flight, or frankly anywhere else I don't want
| to be located.
|
| Interesting how different people have different desires.
| EastOfTruth wrote:
| ok NSA
| calyth2018 wrote:
| Not exactly new.
|
| The old BlackBerries allows you to "turn off" the device and have
| the alarm wake you up. It basically drops into a low power mode.
|
| It was easy to make a phone dead. You yanked out the batteries.
| KirillPanov wrote:
| This is a feature of any device with a battery-backed real time
| clock (RTC). All x86 machines have this feature.
|
| Pretty much anything with a clock that doesn't need resetting
| every time you turn it on can do this. An RTC chip is just a
| super low-power counter, and it costs almost nothing to toss in
| a wake-time comparator, so all of them do. When you set the
| wake-time alarm the host CPU really does power down 100% --
| right after it sets the RTC chip's wake-time registers.
|
| This is a long, long, long way from a microcontroller. It's not
| Turing-complete and has only a few dozen bits of storage for
| the counter. They're also manufactured on incredibly ancient
| fabrication processes (like 350nm until very recently) for
| lowest possible leakage.
| easton wrote:
| The old BlackBerrys didn't even do a full OS startup unless you
| did a battery pull, I think the "clean" shutdown just
| hibernated it at best.
| thepasswordis wrote:
| This is awesome, and is a cool enough feature to actually make me
| upgrade. Love it.
| pornel wrote:
| I hoped for some analysts of how it's implemented (there's
| probably a lot of clever low power pings and cryptography
| involved), but the linked Twitter thread is purely "WTF? Get off
| my lawn!"
| todd3834 wrote:
| This article has me wondering if I've ever turned my phone off
| besides restarting it or the battery died. I'm sure I have but I
| bet it is very uncommon.
|
| That being said, if it were off and lost, this feature would be
| amazing. Apple is very transparent about it and also allows you
| to disable it as far as I remember.
|
| The OP has a follow up tweet that iOS 15 made their phone hot
| during charging. Kind of feels like they might just not be having
| a good time with their new iPhone or is trying a little too hard
| to capture some Apple outrage attention. There are better things
| in the ecosystem to complain about in my opinion but to each
| their own.
| bdcravens wrote:
| My phone has always run hot after an OS update or syncing to a
| new phone. My understanding is that the CPU is ramping up
| during that time, reindexing and the like.
| jaywalk wrote:
| > trying a little too hard to capture some Apple outrage
| attention.
|
| Exactly the vibe I got.
| rjh29 wrote:
| There is an obvious trend on HN turning against Apple since the
| image hash stuff. Search 'Apple' in the last month and you'll
| see stories about Apple screwing over blind people, copying
| other people's ideas, screwing over employees, removing apps
| from the app store, disabling FaceID if you try to change the
| screen etc.
|
| From my POV (a non-Apple user) they have not changed, they have
| always been pretty anti-consumer. But even I can see that most
| of these stories have a clear agenda and are exaggerated to
| capture the current anti-Apple outrage sentiment. That kind of
| discussion doesn't do anyone any favours.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| It's helping show people that "they have always been pretty
| anti-consumer".
| dawnerd wrote:
| The heat part is especially weird considering androids also go
| scorched earth when fast or wireless charging. It's just got
| phones work currently. And their point about losing 15%, after
| an update all phones are going to do reinfecting. My Samsung
| flip drops battery like crazy when not doing anything too.
| Phones are one of those grass isn't greener things.
| brewdad wrote:
| > This article has me wondering if I've ever turned my phone
| off besides restarting it or the battery died. I'm sure I have
| but I bet it is very uncommon.
|
| I turned mine off on a 6.5 hour flight when I wanted to ensure
| I'd have battery later and knew I wasn't going to use it for
| entertainment in-flight. That's really the only time I've
| turned my phone off in the past few years.
| zzyzxd wrote:
| To use this feature, you have to turn on Find My Network in
| settings (it is on by default), turning it on also means the
| device will report other nearby Find My devices like AirTags.
|
| I like to have my phone findable after power off, but I am still
| not sure whether I want my phone to report other devices.
| avianlyric wrote:
| Out of interest, what's your concern with your phone reporting
| the location of other devices?
| CalRobert wrote:
| Phones can be used to eavesdrop even if turned off, as revealed
| in court proceedings against the Genovese family in the
| mid-2000's. Called "roving bugs" I think.
|
| https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2006/12/8343/
| numpad0 wrote:
| This kind of behavior is needed for:
|
| - Public transit and digital IDs. It sucks when phone dies and
| you can't get out of a station or show your driver's license.
|
| - Power management. Power buttons on modern phones are digitally
| controlled by a microcontroller because actually switching main
| power by those buttons can glitch the phone.
|
| - Firmware updates. Phone has to be able to handle USB connection
| to accept new firmware.
|
| - (probably more)
|
| It's nothing new. Just that it does wireless too now.
| zootboy wrote:
| There's nothing that requires a microcontroller to be active
| during power-down to handle the issues you describe:
|
| For transit passes and IDs, there need to be non-phone-based
| ways of handling that issue. It's equally possible to lose /
| have your phone stolen. Talk to the station agent, or have the
| police look up your license by name / address.
|
| There's no need for a continuously-running microcontroller to
| read the power button. It's perfectly possible to have the
| power button feed power directly from the battery to a
| bootstrap power management IC, which then takes over supplying
| power to the main processor.
|
| USB connections supply power, so it's easy to implement having
| the presence of power on the USB port boot the phone.
| avianlyric wrote:
| > For transit passes
|
| It's interesting, here in the U.K. you have a legal
| obligation to present a valid ticket upon demand for any
| train you travel on. Failure to do so for any reason
| (including my phone died, or I dropped the ticket) is a
| criminal offence (and I mean _criminal_ , not civil)
| punishable by a prison sentence.
|
| Some ticket conductors at the end of a long shift hearing
| endless excuses about why someone doesn't have a valid ticket
| really aren't interested in negotiating. They're quite happy
| to enforce the law, and make your life a living hell in the
| process.
|
| Personally I much prefer it if the transit pass on my phone
| keeps working after it dies. The alternative is very...
| _inconvenient_.
| grishka wrote:
| > Public transit and digital IDs. It sucks when phone dies and
| you can't get out of a station or show your driver's license.
|
| Yeah there's no way I'm using my phone for this stuff even if I
| had that option. I don't trust batteries, wireless networks and
| modern software enough. I do use Google Pay, but I always have
| the physical card just in case.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| If someone steals your phone all they have to do so you won't
| find it is to wrap it in aluminium foil.
| katbyte wrote:
| and keep it wrapped till they get to their hideout which is in
| a faraday cage and then proceed to wipe it and bypass the
| activation lock.
|
| it's another hassel for thieves which imho is a good thing.
| Might as well argue "why lock you door when all someone needs
| is a bump key!"
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| So does my car. And?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That's handy. And I am glad that it tells you when you power
| down, so there are no surprises.
| hyperstar wrote:
| wtf?! is this true of 5s as well?
| pfranz wrote:
| I think there's a hardware component required. Unless it's only
| in a beta OS, I have and Xs and I see a different wording for
| that setting. Mine omits "and powered off."
| hyperstar wrote:
| Why? wouldn't it just be a matter of activating a low-power
| mode and turning off the screen? It's been said a long time
| that this is done by certain malwares.
| avianlyric wrote:
| Your hardware needs a low-power mode to activate, before
| you can activate it.
|
| All of the iPhone "off" features, like express transit
| cards and find my use dedicated low power hardware that
| seems to be capable of running the feature without an
| active CPU telling it what to do.
| pfranz wrote:
| I found an article that specifies phone models and explains
| why[1]. It's iPhone 11 and 12 because it requires a UWB/U1
| chip. This thread (via Craig Federighi)[2] asserts UWB
| isn't the part that's used, but those phones have a newer
| Bluetooth chipset.
|
| [1] https://beebom.com/how-find-lost-iphone-turned-off-
| erased/
|
| [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSBeta/comments/otcn02/iphone
| _rema...
| kosasbest wrote:
| An iPhone Remains Findable After Power Off ... except when you
| put it in a Faraday bag when not using it
| [deleted]
| elzbardico wrote:
| Well, unless you're living under a rock this has been
| exhaustively discussed when this feature was launched.
| lucb1e wrote:
| I click every global tracking network link out there and am on
| HN daily and often more time than I perhaps should. This is the
| first I hear of it. Yeah I _really_ need to get out from under
| this rock and spend more time on HN.
| bernardv wrote:
| One day Apple will sell a stylish iHammer to securely power off
| the damn thing.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Great feature. Love it. Got the notification when I first turned
| off my iPhone 13.
| AndrewStephens wrote:
| Umm, isn't this, like maybe, a good thing? If I want my very
| expensive iPhone found, I want it found whether it is on or off.
|
| If people are worried about being tracked maybe they should carry
| around a device that is always broadcasting radio signals to
| third party towers.
| arthur_sav wrote:
| If YOU want that option, that's fine. However, why force
| everyone to use this? From the comments is seems Apple is
| pretty aggressive with it and you can only turn it off
| temporarily.
| sbuk wrote:
| It's only on if the 'Find My' feature is enabled, and then it
| can be disabled.
| otterley wrote:
| Because most customers do want this feature. It's not being
| "forced," it's just a default.
| satysin wrote:
| It's not "forced" on you at all. You can disable it with one
| setting change.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| Since when did something being a default setting become
| something being 'forced' upon users?
| AndrewThrowaway wrote:
| Off should mean off. Sleeping means that it can be woken up,
| woken up means that it microphones can be turned on and etc.
| defaultname wrote:
| For the vast majority of people in the vast majority of
| situations, it's a very good thing and is ideal behavior. It is
| only in conspiratorial "but what if nation states are tracking
| me" noise that this is cast as a bad thing.
| krageon wrote:
| Maybe you don't want to be tracked sometimes, and you expect
| turning off your device to turn it off.
| [deleted]
| riddleronroof wrote:
| Yes, exactly this. Imagine a reporter going through an
| unfriendly country's airport.
| Tagbert wrote:
| then their location is known anyway
| pfranz wrote:
| I've found iPhones way too fickle to trust them to stay off.
| If you plug in a charger or tap the power button they power
| back on. If you don't want to be tracked turn off your phone
| and put it in a faraday bag.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| I would expect tapping the power button would turn most
| devices with a power button on. With respect to charging
| it, for most users that's probably the correct behavior.
| There are 2 reasons people seem to turn off (not just
| airplane mode or disabling some things) their phones:
|
| 1. To preserve a low battery or because the battery has
| died.
|
| 2. To fully disable the device.
|
| (1) is by far the most common of the two. In that case,
| once it's charging then turning back on automatically is
| the desired behavior. In the case of (2), if you have a
| strong motivation (avoiding detection, for instance) then
| you'd presumably have done a bit of research or noticed
| that this happens and make deliberate choices around how
| you use and charge the device.
| pfranz wrote:
| > I would expect tapping the power button would turn most
| devices with a power button on.
|
| I believe I was thinking of my older phone. Tapping the
| home button, perhaps even the volume buttons, would turn
| it back on. On my Xs, I have to hold down the power
| button for a few seconds before it would turn on. I find
| this a bit more reliable if I want my phone to be off for
| awhile.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| > you expect turning off your device to turn it off.
|
| When you turn your phone off there is a message that states:
| iPhone Findable After Power Off >
|
| Tapping that shows an alert with a description:
| iPhone Remains Findable After Power Off Find
| my helps you locate this iPhone when it is lost or stolen,
| even after power off The location is visible in
| Find My on your other devices and to people in Family Sharing
| you share location with. You can temporarily
| turn off Find My network and it will resume when this iPhone
| is turned on again [OK] [Temporarily Turn Off
| Finding]
|
| Seems very clear about setting expectations about exactly
| what your phone will be doing when you turn it "off".
| OneLeggedCat wrote:
| Mine has no such message, and I'm on iOS 15. I just tested
| it. Any idea why?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Head to the "Find My" section in the settings, click into
| "Find My iPhone", and see if "Find My network" is on or
| off.
|
| If it's off, you won't get the disclaimer, because it's
| not active.
| TillE wrote:
| That setting is enabled for me on iOS 15, and yet I have
| no such message on the power off screen.
|
| slide to power off, Emergency SOS, Cancel
|
| That's it. Nothing appears after I turn it off either.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Interesting. I'm on 15.1 beta, so perhaps there's a
| difference. Is it possible the "Find My network" isn't
| supported on some phones?
| sbuk wrote:
| Look at the text under "Slide to power off"...
| avianlyric wrote:
| I don't think all devices support it. My iPhone XS
| doesn't show the message, and under the find my toggle it
| says "Participating in the Find My network let's you
| locate your phone even when it's _offline_ ", rather than
| when it's _off_.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| It's only supported on iPhone 11, 12, and 13 series.
| amimrroboto wrote:
| What situation are you going, "I don't want big tech to be
| tracking me right now"?
| krageon wrote:
| Every situation, but I was trying to frame it more softly
| because I was expecting a large percentage of these
| comments to say "I don't just not mind being tracked, I
| want it now!" and similar thoughts.
| nixgeek wrote:
| Given the prevalence of geofence warrants nowadays, I don't
| think the situation needs to be especially nefarious in
| nature. Perhaps you don't want to be scrutinized just
| because you and 370 others were within 300 yards of a crime
| occurring?
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/16/geofence-
| war...
| jdavis703 wrote:
| My understanding is the power off tracking uses NFC. This
| is encrypted. If Apple's documentation is to be believed,
| the location information cannot be decrypted by law
| enforcement.
| contravariant wrote:
| All of them.
| poo-yie wrote:
| Or use a case that functions as a Faraday cage.
| Terretta wrote:
| Then leave the phone at home. Because knowing which
| _cell_ a _cellular_ phone is in, is how it works:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
| vorpalhex wrote:
| What situation are you happy to let your location data be
| sold? Will you give the rest of us your location data?
| lucideer wrote:
| Exactly. For example, when you're a phone thief.
| tdy_err wrote:
| Or the target of a malicious actor.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Or you're an activist attending a protest.
| NineStarPoint wrote:
| It's almost strictly better to leave your phone home in
| that sort of circumstance though. Your phone looks like
| you stayed home all day, and you don't need to worry
| about things like whether any information gets sent out
| despite being "off".
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Ideally yes. However, people need to communicate and
| coordinate. Even arranging transportation may be an issue
| without a phone.
| Someone wrote:
| I think you would have to leave your phone home a lot
| more often than on days you don't want to be nailed to
| where you are.
|
| Imagine a case where evidence puts you near a protest or
| crime scene while your phone is home. That's coincidence,
| but if your phone also was home _only_ at the three days
| three similar events happened, it becomes circumstantial
| evidence.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| Most of the time protests in America only start involving
| law breaking, riot police and mass arrests after the sun
| goes down. I'd never endorse perjury, but an argument of
| "I decided to spend the evening inside" seems like it
| ought to be pretty reasonable for most people.
| bowmessage wrote:
| Won't phone thieves just have some faraday bags to pop
| their winnings into?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Dedicated ones, yes, but their numbers have declined
| significantly now that the phones can be activation
| locked.
|
| Opportunistic ones likely won't have such a thing. My
| wife's phone was once stolen by someone at a hospital
| lab... _after_ they 'd checked in their kid. It was a
| fairly easy job for the cops to track that down.
| sbuk wrote:
| You can remotely brick it. The minute that the thief
| tries to do anything with the device, it's functionally
| useless. It needs to be online to be reactived, and if
| the device is marked stolen, it won't activate.
| silicon2401 wrote:
| Think of the children!
|
| A more reasonable, good-faith understanding would also
| account for people who don't want to be tracked. I keep GPS
| and any location tracking on with all my devices because I
| don't want them to have any more data on me than I can
| avoid.
| lucideer wrote:
| The original commenter was proposing that there's
| multiple perspectives. The replies were all completely
| ignoring this and adding nothing substantive to the
| discussion, so I thought a short jokey reply would
| suffice.
|
| To be serious though: there's a lack of acknowledgement
| of the functional benefits of tracking by those
| advocating for control and privacy in this particular
| instance. The fact is as long as Apple's closed walled-
| garden is offering actual value to users (FindMyPhone
| works, and works well, for the common use-case most
| "consumers" experience day-to-day), while open
| alternatives are actively sticking their head in the sand
| around features like this, then closed solutions will
| prevail.
|
| What's needed is proper discourse on the challenges of
| e.g. providing practical asset management features that
| bad actors cannot easily overcome, while at the same time
| ensuring full user control over their own device and
| privacy. This is a real world challenge _without_ easy
| answers: "just turn it all off all the time" is an easy
| answer, and a cop-out.
|
| If we want to provide quality solutions to e.g.
| activists, those solutions need to be mature and
| practical.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Ah the ol' innocent people have nothing to hide argument.
| Been used by bad faith actors for centuries.
| exabrial wrote:
| No. A device thats "off" should be "off" 100% of the time. When
| the device wakes it realizes it's been stolen, only then should
| it reach for home. This behavior can/will only be exploited by
| hostile nations and other bad actors.
| ubercow13 wrote:
| Then turn it off. Personally I'd like it on.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| I guess that's why it's an option, with (IMHO) a reasonable
| default of being enabled.
|
| It's a useless feature against theft if it can just be turned
| off the thief.
| nixgeek wrote:
| You're both correct, but Apple is optimizing for the majority
| with their 'Find My' network, where the majority don't have a
| threat model which includes exploitation of a target by a
| nation state actor.
|
| It's a toggle in Settings to turn off this functionality for
| those who want the surface area reduction, or an RF shielded
| bag if you don't trust the toggle ;)
| avianlyric wrote:
| Most devices never "wake up" after being stolen. Apple's
| activation lock means that most stolen iPhone are only good
| for parts.
|
| If your threat model includes nation state actors, then you
| should probably be putting electronics in faraday bags if you
| don't want to be tracked. For everyone else, the design of
| the Find My network provides significant protection against
| misuse.
| draw_down wrote:
| What use would this be if a thief could just power off the
| device?
| lmilcin wrote:
| Per my understanding this has nothing to do with actual security.
|
| I think nobody steals smartphones anymore for the smartphone
| itself. Mainly because they are either getting locked or are
| easily tracked. That is poor business.
|
| What is happening in practice is thieves take sim card out of the
| phone and try to use it to steal from the owner as much as
| possible. Log in to bank account, reset passwords on social
| accounts and ransom money, etc.
| sigjuice wrote:
| eSIMs should help avoid this scenario, right?
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