[HN Gopher] Crews are abandoned on ships in record numbers witho...
___________________________________________________________________
Crews are abandoned on ships in record numbers without pay, food or
a way home
Author : bryan0
Score : 240 points
Date : 2021-10-08 16:52 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| h2odragon wrote:
| Not related but I have to mention it:
|
| There's a picture of a "garden" bucket in the article, with an
| obviously just bought fresh onion on top of the dirt. I guess to
| communicate its "garden"-ness.
|
| I cant help but wonder, if its OK to stage small details like
| that to be more favorable to the narrative, ... where is the line
| drawn?
| kevingadd wrote:
| The owner of the bucket could have taken that photo when it was
| new. Can imagine posting that on social media "just made my
| first garden bucket!", or having a series of photos from points
| in time to show the progress
| tdeck wrote:
| That onion has clearly sprouted a lot, so perhaps it's a seed
| onion? It's not uncommon to buy small seed onions and plant
| them so they'll get bigger (although I personally don't see the
| point, and would grow small bunching onions instead). In this
| case it's probably just an old onion that sat in a bag too long
| and sprouted, so they decided to plant it.
| h2odragon wrote:
| no roots. its bought.
| tdeck wrote:
| It's not a "just-bought" onion. What grocery store sells an
| onion with an eight inch sprout coming out of it? At least
| in the U.S. such an onion would be unsellable, which is why
| I think they found this one in a bag somewhere and decided
| to plant it.
| h2odragon wrote:
| https://www.walmart.com/ip/Green-Onions-
| Bunch/51259361?athbd...
|
| Its not a sprout; its _fresh_.
| tdeck wrote:
| Are we looking at the same photos here? It's clearly not
| a green onion. It has a large round bulb on the bottom
| that's more than two inches wide. Green onions /
| scallions do not look like that. You can see that in the
| very image you just linked.
| m0zg wrote:
| Sounds to me like people will have to overthrow their governments
| to "go back to normal" anytime soon. The lack of normalcy
| increases the power of those imposing lockdowns and restrictions
| dramatically, and they aren't going to let go of that. There's no
| precedent for any government ever willingly ceding significant
| power. Just watch "V for Vendetta" - it's the same thing, except
| in the movie it was called the "St. Mary's virus". Incredible
| foresight.
| jollybean wrote:
| Companies need be insured for ABC if not, illegal to go anywhere
| near a port in a rich country.
| sytelus wrote:
| It looks like our demand/supply ecosystem was setup with
| negligible buffers and unprepared for any big disruptions. This
| is a chain reaction that might go on for quite some time.
| Meanwhile prices of goods is getting pretty crazy!
| thedigitalone wrote:
| Paywalled https://archive.is/TX6lA
| pluc wrote:
| I don't understand why this content is allowed. Without a
| subscription it's literally just an ad for a subscription. And
| I'm not going to buy a subscription for the three articles I
| read every month.
| lelandfe wrote:
| Once they start blocking archive.is I'll probably care more
| dundarious wrote:
| It's a major national US newspaper -- many, many people have
| subscriptions.
| rob74 wrote:
| Well, I live in Germany, and I'm not going to subscribe to
| a major national US newspaper just for the few articles
| that get linked here. If they had a micropayment
| alternative for single articles I would consider it
| however...
| dundarious wrote:
| Which is all fair enough. I'm opposing pluc's point that
| this type of post should perhaps be disallowed:
|
| > I don't understand why this content is allowed.
|
| It's certainly an appropriate post for a US-centric
| forum.
| detaro wrote:
| > _I don 't understand why this content is allowed._
|
| Because a workaround is available.
|
| > _And I 'm not going to buy a subscription for the three
| articles I read every month._
|
| Then click the link in the comment you replied to and read
| it.
| erellsworth wrote:
| Tie all the abandoned ships together and turn them into a
| floating city where the only law is the law of the sea. I mean,
| we're aiming for full on dystopia aren't we?
| perl4ever wrote:
| Milton Friedman's grandson is on it:
|
| "Friedman and Gramlich noted that according to the United
| Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, a country's Exclusive
| Economic Zone extends 200 nautical miles (370 km) from shore.
| Beyond that boundary lie the high seas, which are not subject
| to the laws of any sovereign state other than the flag under
| which a ship sails. They proposed that a seastead could take
| advantage of the absence of laws and regulations outside the
| sovereignty of nations to experiment with new governance
| systems, and allow the citizens of existing governments to exit
| more easily"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seasteading_Institute
|
| "The project picked up mainstream exposure after PayPal
| cofounder Peter Thiel donated $500,000 in initial seed
| capital[4] (followed by subsequent contributions). He also
| spoke out on behalf of its viability in his essay "The
| Education of a Libertarian""
|
| Patri Friedman is described as a former Google employee, a
| transhumanist and rationalist, and a very good poker player.
|
| "Since attending the Burning Man festival in 2000, Friedman
| imagined creating a water festival called Ephemerisle as a
| Seasteading experiment and Temporary Autonomous Zone. Through
| The Seasteading Institute, Friedman was able to start the
| Ephemerisle festival in 2009, aided by TSI's James Hogan as
| event organizer and Chicken John Rinaldi as chief builder."
|
| It doesn't really interest me, but I guess it does make a lot
| more sense than Mars colonies?
| perl4ever wrote:
| Here is an interesting application for ships hanging around
| in international waters:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_Waves
|
| "Women on Waves (WoW) is a Dutch pro-choice nongovernmental
| organization (NGO) created in 1999 by Dutch physician Rebecca
| Gomperts, in order to bring reproductive health services,
| particularly non-surgical abortion services and education, to
| women in countries with restrictive abortion laws.[1] Other
| services offered by WoW include contraception, individual
| reproductive counseling, workshops, and education about
| unwanted pregnancy."
| louwrentius wrote:
| Can we call this floating city Waterworld?
| BoxOfRain wrote:
| You might be interested in the story of Radio Caroline, back in
| the '60s the BBC had a state monopoly on British radio and it
| was very stuffy and conservative. To get around this people
| used to set up AM transmitters and studios on ships just
| outside of UK territorial waters and transmitted from beyond
| the jurisdiction of the government. There were quite a few of
| these but Radio Caroline was the first and longest-lived - they
| lasted up to 1990 when the British government gave itself the
| power to raid radio ships in international waters (!) but it
| eventually returned with a license and is still around today.
|
| While it wasn't exactly a dystopian floating city (quite the
| opposite, it was dedicated people who _wanted_ to be there) it
| 's still really interesting from lots of points of view I
| think.
| megameter wrote:
| I learned of Radio Caroline from the lyrics of Thomas Dolby -
| Radio Silence:
|
| _Carve her legend on the bow, Caroline 452_
| BoxOfRain wrote:
| Ironically he'd have been breaking the law in Britain if
| the lyrics had the real frequency because promoting
| "pirate" radio stations is illegal over here. I think
| people used to get in trouble for having Radio Caroline car
| stickers but it was a bit before my time. The whole story
| of Radio Caroline really reminds me of the current British
| government's attitude to the internet today, there's some
| incredibly controlling personalities in Whitehall now as
| then. It wasn't so much that they were using the radio
| spectrum without a licence (apparently it was quite under-
| utilised back then anyway), more that they were bringing
| media to the masses without the BBC's strict oversight. The
| debates at the time around radio sound a lot to me like the
| debates around who should control the internet, state
| monopolies or various degrees of regulated corporations.
|
| You can hear them (their licensed incarnation plus the
| occasional pirate relaying them) on 648 AM in south east
| England but I think they're getting a more powerful
| transmitter in the next few months so they should be
| audible much further. I was bored in the lockdowns and got
| into radio DXing of all things, which is how I fell into
| this particular rabbit hole!
| alexjplant wrote:
| Me too! One of my top-five records of all time. I was able
| to grab a pressing that had the original guitar version of
| "Radio Silence" - although I can appreciate the version
| that eventually ended up on later pressings I enjoy the
| guitar one so much more. I also saw him perform live in
| Baltimore pre-pandemic.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ntZNpE3am8
| mike503 wrote:
| Real life Snow Crash!
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Perhaps, more like Armada from "The Scar".
| myself248 wrote:
| Kowloon Hulled City?
| srvmshr wrote:
| There actually was such a situation during the wars near Suez
| Canal - the Great Bitter Lakes Association or the Yellow fleet
| [1][2]
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet
|
| 2. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-
| ass...
| obmelvin wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26657332
|
| Most recent discussion of the Great Bitter Lake Association
| (googling seems to indicate it'd been posted on HN before -
| but the Ever Given's grounding made it relevant again)
| hikerclimber1 wrote:
| Good.
| jaqalopes wrote:
| This is upsetting. What can I, an ordinary civilian not involved
| with the shipping industry, do to help these people?
| regnull wrote:
| https://www.missiontoseafarers.org
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Buy less stuff, basically.
|
| Think hard before buying something "new". You may not need it,
| or you may be able to find alternatives, such as hand-me-downs,
| secondhand, etc.
| m463 wrote:
| wouldn't that create a recession or depression?
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Is an economic recession or depression necessarily bad, if
| everyone's basic needs are still accounted for?
|
| If the economy is in a state of overproduction and extreme
| waste while the effects are the burn-up of our own habitat,
| shouldn't it tune down a bit anyway?
| PoachedSausage wrote:
| We could go for ecological and climate collapse instead.
|
| I hope there is a middle way.
| plausibledeny wrote:
| How does that help the people in the shipping industry? Let's
| say you did reduce shipping and therefore there were fewer
| shipping jobs, the people currently doing this work would
| lose these jobs and have to find other work. Something which
| would be even less attractive than shipping. How's that help
| them?
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| It doesn't help them either way, whether you buy stuff or
| not.
|
| However, it does help you not be comlicit to their
| treatment.
| plausibledeny wrote:
| But clearly for many of them this bad choice is their
| best option (unfortunately). So the goal isn't to improve
| their lives but to assuage our guilt?
|
| Companies that use these services could exert pressure
| for better conditions, just like some have done with
| other companies in their supply chain.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I think there is a difference between guilt and
| complicity, though they are related.
|
| I have somewhat limited agency in this world, limited to
| the little bit of money I spend, the movement of my arms
| and legs, the words I speak, the things I look at, and my
| thoughts and intentions.
| ericd wrote:
| Local BuyNothing groups are great for this.
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| Just looked into Buy Nothing. What's the advantage of using
| this platform vs. second-hand/thrift shops?
| ericd wrote:
| It's typically just a Facebook group of your neighbors,
| so "platform" might be a bit strong for what it is.
| Besides everything being free, I've found it helps build
| a bit of a sense of community for those who participate.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I think it's an alternative to second-hand and thrift
| shops, and the biggest advantage is that it is available
| even in areas without thrift shops.
|
| The second advantage is that you don't have to pay, so it
| is more likely that items will find a good home instead
| of being discarded.
|
| The third advantage is non-participation in the money
| system, if you're into that sort of thing, and also the
| elimination of overhead for store and inventory upkeep.
|
| One downside, of course, is that most people aren't
| willing to keep their "stock" around for too long, so
| there's limited inventory at any given time that you can
| browse.
| shakezula wrote:
| You can't "buy less stuff" when the things we're talking
| about are necessities, often times food and critical supplies
| like fuel. Container ships don't just ship you game consoles
| and televisions.
|
| And even if you managed to reduce all private consumption to
| zero, commercial consumption probably makes up an order of
| magnitudes more than private does. It doesn't matter what YOU
| do, you can't change the scales that these ships operate.
|
| The only thing that will fix this is government intervention
| and fines that make it less cost effective to abandon the
| ship than to deal with the consequences.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I would hazard an eyeball guess that the overwhelming
| majority of container ships headed for the U.S. are
| carrying non-essentials.
|
| I disagree with your statement that "it doesn't matter what
| you do". It is all that matters, because what everyone else
| does is beyond my control, and only what I do is under my
| control.
|
| Individual action and its spread through word-of-mouth is
| pretty much the only way anything changes in this world.
| jessaustin wrote:
| _You can 't "buy less stuff" when the things we're talking
| about are necessities, often times food and critical
| supplies like fuel._
|
| This isn't really an excuse in e.g. USA, which produces
| surpluses in both of these commodities.
| trangus_1985 wrote:
| But you can "buy less stuff" in general. And that will
| reduce your impact.
| vkou wrote:
| Ask that your federal representative legislate against this
| sort of behaviour, and to give teeth to enforcement agencies.
|
| Unscrupulous actors get away with this because there are few
| rules against it, and enforcement is non-existent. If a
| shipping company is sanctioned from entry into American ports
| based on misbehavior on the other side of the world, they'd
| have an incentive to clean up their act... Or at least, to
| subcontract everything to shell corporations.
| drak0n1c wrote:
| Pressure politicians to implement covid rule
| exemptions/changes, budget hikes, and personnel bonuses to keep
| docks open. They are too often closed to incoming ships due to
| unreasonable requirements such as vaccine passports for all
| sailors and quarantines whenever there are mild/asymptomatic
| breakthrough infections among vaccinated dock staff.
|
| https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-31/for-st...
| genericone wrote:
| For a start, buy goods and services from ultra-local sources, a
| boycott of shipped goods if you will. Know that your sources
| get their supplies shipped to them, but just go down the local-
| sourcing chain as far as you deem reasonable.
| djur wrote:
| Local producers are still very likely to be making use of
| goods shipped from overseas. You can't boycott your way out
| of the global economy.
| FredPret wrote:
| It'll never be possible. Locally produced food/gadgets were
| made using raw materials and equipment that were likely
| imported.
|
| The raw material was extracted and the equipment itself was
| produced by yet another layer of equipment. And so on, until
| you get to the iron ore and copper and so on. No way will all
| of that be local.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"boycott of shipped goods"
|
| And all those poor sailors suddenly retire and live happily
| ever after, NOT. Buying local is not a solution to sailors
| and not a solution to buyers either as so many things are
| simply not being made locally.
|
| What is needed is a control. If company does things like this
| then countries can start issuing huge fines should any ship
| of said company visit the their ports. That'll teach them
| proper.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Does that help them? It makes the trade that at sports the
| abuses less financially viable, but that might make the
| abuses worse. If the trade stops they lose their jobs and
| money stops flowing from wealthier regions to poorer regions.
|
| Fair trade is better than no trade (other things being equal)
| if you want to support foreign workers.
|
| Just global trade systems are a hard problem, as I see it,
| and really can't be organised from the consumer end (ie by
| simply choosing where/if to buy goods).
| ericd wrote:
| Do you know of any good ways to find these ultra-local
| sources of goods efficiently?
| egypturnash wrote:
| For food, farmer's markets usually work well; if you can't
| find one locally whose hours and sellers sync up with your
| food needs, look at all your local grocers - there should
| be at least one who gets a lot of local goods, and puts
| signs on the shelves proclaiming this.
| ericd wrote:
| Thanks. Any ideas about sourcing manufactured goods
| locally?
| bluGill wrote:
| Go to the "bad side of the tracks" and walk in. All towns
| have a bunch of generic machine shops that can
| manufacture. Look for welders, machinists, sheet metal
| and that type of thing in the name. Then walk into the
| office.
|
| Note that few of them will do the design/engineering work
| for you. But if you have a "blueprint" they will build
| it. Be prepared to pay - they are all making good wages
| for your city not third world step above slave wages.
| ericd wrote:
| I was thinking more finished goods made locally, rather
| than custom-made. I'm guessing the coverage will be
| pretty meager, though. But good advice for the next time
| I want something a bit more unique, thanks!
| mook wrote:
| Note that farmers markets don't guarantee that the
| produce is actually local. Realistically you'd need to
| camp out early enough to catch them shipping it on site
| to figure out where it's actually from.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Or you can talk to them, gauge their trustworthiness, and
| ask around about their reputation.
| asdff wrote:
| Usually its obvious that the heirloom produce they are
| selling would be impossible to ship long distances. an
| heirloom tomato is amazingly fragile compared to a roma
| bred for shipping.
| chefkoch wrote:
| I don't think you'll find tomatoes and salad in these
| ships. Most of the poorly run ships will not go to first
| world harbors with safety controls etc.
| mam2 wrote:
| Nothing really relevant probalby.
| literallyaduck wrote:
| You could contact your lawmakers and ask for a crew bond escrow
| requirement for ships, insolvent companies forfeit the money
| and it pays to send the crew home with a year's pay.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| I don't think any of the suggestions made thus far will do
| anything to help out.
|
| I think that one of the only methods that has a chance is to
| go to the UN and work out a treaty on human rights for
| maritime workers with the stipulation that once a
| supermajority of nations ratify/adopt it, ships flying the
| flag of a nation that hasn't ratified it are not allowed in
| the ports of the nations that have.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| Form a group of a few like minded people and pressure your
| representatives to do something.
| avaldes wrote:
| I'm sorry but is this a template response? This kind of
| situation is a bureaucratic mess spanning an awful lot of
| jurisdictions. What "your representative" can possibly do to
| help abandoned crewmen on a ship in a forgotten port in
| whatever place in the world when the ships operator is a
| chain of shell companies to the point that's virtually
| impossible to pinpoint a single entity to blame. It has to be
| a better way.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| Sure, it's not an easy way. But basically I can think of
| four things to do:
|
| 1. Complain on the internet. This is easy but utterly
| ineffectual.
|
| 2. Alter your buying behavior. Unless you are the
| purchasing director for a multinational conglomerate, also
| utterly ineffectual.
|
| 3. Do something stupid like trying to blow up a
| containership. Also ineffectual, will land you in jail and
| will almost certainly kill some innocent people.
|
| 4. Contact your local representatives and get them to do
| soemthing about it. This will be easier if you are part of
| a larger group. Then your group and your representative(s)
| can contact someone higher up and so on.
|
| Yes this particular problem and many others relating to
| ship operations thrives because there is little direct
| control and everyone is from 20 different jurisdictions,
| but perhaps some of those jurisdictions can team up and tax
| those that don't follow their rules or whatever. I am not
| an expert in this but some people are and the most I can do
| is let my representatives know that I care about this
| stuff. Maybe I actually should go and do that.
| m463 wrote:
| there's also the news media.
|
| (although I have noticed something unfortunate: I have a
| LOT of 5-star documentaries to watch, but rarely do,
| while I watch even 2-star scifi stuff almost immediately)
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| Which also does nothing unless combined with method 4.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| Something interesting to me is that this article comes a t a time
| when shipping is reaching record highs. We used to pay around 4k
| for a container from Asia to the US, now the price is 25k.
|
| It looks like there a a large amount of volatility in the
| shipping system as this is not the first time we have seen price
| jumps and crashes. I remember hearing about shipping
| congestion/issues in SEA a couple years ago as well as periodic
| stories about congestion/issues at Longbeach.
|
| With global trade ever on the rise, we should expect to see it
| remain profitable, unless there are too many companies coming in
| and trying to undercut each other.
| m463 wrote:
| I wonder what effect Ever Given had on all of this
| bserge wrote:
| If these were sail ships, they'd have been commandeered a long
| time ago. Sadly, they're all dependent on expensive af fuel.
| jefftk wrote:
| Sailing ships require large amounts of labor, which is even
| more expensive.
| bserge wrote:
| Yeah, that's not why they're not being used. More to do with
| the absolutely massive size that motor powered ships can
| have.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Yes, but then the labour can just take over the ship if they
| aren't paid.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| I paid money to cross the Pacific Ocean on a Maersk line, 300
| meter cargo ship (us_en here). Many people asked me if I worked
| to be on board, and the answer was "no", Maersk did not allow it.
| The officers were mostly East Germans who needed a job, while the
| strictly segregated, "A-Bs" were almost all Pacific Islanders of
| some kind. The conditions were clean and professional, but I got
| the feeling soon that this was not a desirable job. The officers
| would spend at least 60 days on duty, often more.. without a
| vacation day, but had a weekly day "off" or two, except the
| Captain who is technically working at all times.
|
| I enjoyed the travel and had a good voyage, with many small
| things to say about it at another time. As I learn about
| "business" and the world, I understand more about labor abuses,
| even with "respectable" companies. And, your outrage does
| nothing, because people who mistreat others professionally are
| quite used to the complaining, including yours. I am not at all
| surprised at this article.
| polishdude20 wrote:
| How much did that voyage cost?
| p_j_w wrote:
| I'm not OP, but I've looked it up before, and it's actually
| quite expensive. Ballpark of around $75/night (USD). And, of
| course, it's slow, so you'll be using a substantial portion
| of your banked vacation time to do it (if that's a concern
| for you).
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > quite expensive. Ballpark of around $75/night (USD)
|
| For room and board? That's pretty economical.
| [deleted]
| the-dude wrote:
| AFAIK you would need papers to be allowed to work.
| atatatat wrote:
| From the government of the Pacific Ocean..?
| zerkten wrote:
| Maersk's insurer, or more likely, legal team wouldn't
| permit something like this because of the liability they'd
| carry for enabling it. It wouldn't get past that point to a
| discussion of region-specific employment restrictions, not
| that they matter here per your comment.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| All they (and every other bigco) care about is doing
| whatever token "due diligence" they need to do. If your
| papers aren't legit they don't care as long as they don't
| know.
| rhcom2 wrote:
| I'd assume from the government of the country which the
| vessel is flagged under. For example needing a Merchant
| Mariner's Credential if a US ship.
| elliekelly wrote:
| I think ships are a bit like the wild west... one of the last
| "anything goes" jurisdictions. The cruise industry especially
| goes to great lengths to avoid regulatory oversight at all
| costs.
| ddoran wrote:
| I enjoyed "The Cargo Ship Diaries" [1] by Niall Doherty about
| his time traveling as a paid passenger on merchant ships.
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21868783-the-cargo-ship-...
| rootsudo wrote:
| this is also common on cruise ships and naval around the world.
| - officers are european, with more lately east european.
|
| Then the staff or A-B are usually filipino, Vietmanese or
| Indonesian. Its more salary then back where they're from - and
| it has interesting cultural changes in their socities.
|
| In the philippines, these are called "OFW" families. daddy is
| never home, but because he works "abroad" his family can have
| newer stuff, be in a better neighborhood, etc.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Filipino_Worker
| hunterb123 wrote:
| this is common amongst all first world industries.
|
| whether it's farming, cruises, factories, transportation,
| etc.
|
| not supporting it, but that's the current setup.
| smabie wrote:
| Why wouldn't you support it? Seems like a win-win for most
| parties involved.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| Directly, it usually it leads to poor working conditions
| when you have non-residential workers, especially ones in
| a quasi-legal status.
|
| For factories, you sometimes have the problem of the
| factory shutting down after the locals become dependent
| on it.
|
| For migrant working, it's hard on the children of the
| family and it causes tension between the families not
| participating.
|
| Philosophically, one could argue it's exploitation and is
| very close to slavery except the small amount of pay.
| Until this type of work is extinct I don't think one can
| morally campaign for UBI can you?
|
| Currently this type of work is apparently necessary so
| we've accepted that the system cannot either pay the more
| wealthy citizen's wage nor up the wage of the foreign
| workers.
|
| Is there a demand to up the wage of these non-represented
| workers that make far below minimum wage?
|
| Is there a demand to up the wage of minimal wage for
| citizens and are the foreign workers mentioned?
|
| Is there a demand for UBI for citizens to not work at all
| while foreign workers pick up the slack?
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| UBI is income redistribution. It will always be immoral
| for those paying to support others who are not working.
|
| What you describe is not exploitation, people are working
| of their own will and that's the best deal they can have.
|
| When you'll eliminate those jobs with income
| redistribution and minimum wage those people (especially
| if they're coming in from a different, poorer country)
| will just be out of a job.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| A prostitute can be exploited by a pimp even though it's
| her own will to work vs be homeless under a bridge. It's
| the "best deal she has".
|
| It may be the best option for these people, but you are
| exploiting their poverty for your profit, otherwise you'd
| pay the minimum wage.
|
| It's the people who cry minimum wage hikes while
| exploiting this business that make my blood boil.
|
| I agree about UBI, it's immoral, period.
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| Our government has bailed out banks multiple times,
| injected money into the stock market, the airlines, a
| constant state of war that has lasted since Bush one that
| has cost trillions of dollars... but UBI that can have
| its cost reduced by drawing its budget from social
| security, disability and welfare, that's the one that
| makes your blood boil?
| hunterb123 wrote:
| Many things can make my blood boil, but this thing was
| the topic. ( _cough_ whataboutism _cough_ )
|
| But yes people supporting near slave labor while also
| wanting UBI does make my blood boil, lazy fucks.
|
| As does child-trafficking, bank bailouts, defense
| contract laundering, nepotism, etc.
|
| Gotta have ice cold veins to counteract all that blood
| boiling bullshit in the world, dontcha.
| chmsky00 wrote:
| It would be immoral to redistribute the real property
| someone worked on.
|
| I have no issue with income distribution of a social
| value store since allowing it to be monopolized to prop
| up the value of a minority rich, to let millions starve,
| or die of preventable disease is immoral and violent.
|
| I don't believe Elon Musk is worth billions. I just can't
| take his real stuff.
|
| Letting our social value store be co-opted by a handful
| of memes isn't exactly free agency, speech, or market of
| ideas. When "get job, buy stuff" is the one true
| sentence, why believe ideas like freedom matter?
| fumar wrote:
| I don't follow your reasoning. How are memes changing or
| impacting currency?
| dylan604 wrote:
| It's not a matter of supporting hiring people of
| different nationalities. It's supporting the current
| conditions surrounding these employees. If these workers
| are not of a legal status, then they are easily abused
| (working conditions/below minimum pay/etc). These workers
| are more fearful of being deported than the abuse which
| means they do not report any of the wrongs that may be
| occurring. To me, this says much more about the employer.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > this is also common on cruise ships and naval around the
| world. - officers are european, with more lately east
| european. > Then the staff or A-B are usually filipino,
| Vietmanese or Indonesian.
|
| Merchant marine, sure, but _naval_? Wouldn't both officers
| and crew be the nationality of the force in the vast majority
| of cases?
| [deleted]
| unethical_ban wrote:
| You can't toss out a cool anecdote like that and not talk more
| about how to get on a ship!
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > your outrage does nothing
|
| It's a trendy thing to say these days, but history shows that
| outrage and public opinion do quite a lot, and that is why
| people work very hard to manage it (including, these days, to
| try to appear unbothered). There are plenty of labor laws that
| the public has passed, and you can see, for example, SV
| companies responses to publicized labor abuses in their supply
| chains.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| History shows that outrage does something, when it turns into
| laws. Todays outrage is managed ressource going nowhere.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| What about the effects of #Metoo, racial injustice
| protests, LGTBQ+ marriage, transgender protections (and
| discrimination - outrage results in bad laws too), gun
| rights outrage, voter ID laws, etc etc etc.
|
| Lots is happening.
|
| Also, outrage doesn't need laws to be effective: Plenty of
| corporations do things that aren't legally required, in
| order to please the public. The NFL didn't have to address
| racial injustice, but it did. Bad things happen too -
| lynchings, for example.
| tehjoker wrote:
| Really interesting story! Why did you have to pay in order to
| work, it was a big discount?
|
| Just want to point out that yes, companies dismiss complaints,
| but they don't dismiss it when workers stop working together.
| Then they get panicked.
| tdeck wrote:
| I think OP paid to travel as a passenger. They explicitly
| didn't get the option to work on the ship for a discount on
| their passage. Apparently you can just pay to travel on these
| container ship lines, although it can take more than 2 weeks
| to cross the ocean and accommodations vary.
| rendall wrote:
| You need to read more carefully. OP wrote they paid to be on
| the ship and did not have to work.
| CalChris wrote:
| A-B, usually AB, is an _able body seaman_. This is the lowest
| level of certification for the deck department of a merchant
| ship.
|
| https://www.mitags.org/course/able-seaman-course/
| [deleted]
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| Just curious but why specify East Germans versus Germans. Is
| the Berlin Wall back up?
| heurisko wrote:
| I assumed they were talking about an event pre-1989.
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > I assumed they were talking about an event pre-1989.
|
| Same at first, but then having spent time in the South
| years ago I also realized the prejudice from the North on
| the South for economic reasons.
|
| The South is typically seen as the most affluent of all of
| Germany and depending on the Stat the most influenced by
| politics: as in the case with Baden-Wuttenburg and the
| Green Party. Hell, people from the Schwabish part
| (Stutgart) are used looked down on by the rest of Baden-
| Wuttenburg for being typically very stingy and aloof (even
| by German standards) and seen as not worth building ties
| with. I had a bad experience with them, after being warmly
| welcomed in Germany, but I took that more a random
| situation rather than anything worth looking deeper into.
|
| It's frankly a very odd situation and makes you wonder why
| they're even united at all, I spent time in the North near
| Cologne this summer and to be honest the amount of Turkish
| people was a very welcomed sight especially how well
| integrated they were in Society.
|
| I wish I could have remained with that feeling because
| stuff like this makes me realize how deeply scarred the
| German psyche is in regards to this topic.
| culebron21 wrote:
| Every time I meet East Germans, the discussion will
| inevitably touch the unification and the social tension.
|
| What I heard were complaints on
|
| * privatization by the West and sometimes closure of
| enterprises. People of age 40 and older remember well the
| tough years after unification when their parents had no job
| and had to take a lower-level one.
|
| * they claim that management of states and enterprises was
| taken over by the Wessies
|
| * a lot of complaints about amerikanization of the culture
| and aligning with the US in every international policy
| question under Merkel. I regret I did not ask further about
| the culture, but just an example: by default radio stations
| in Germany put American music, more than stations in other
| Western European countries that I heard. It's very hard to
| stumble upon songs in German, just as any other language but
| English. (If you listen to French stations, foreign non-
| English music is much more probable to hear.)
|
| * East Germans are more atomized and secular. That's similar
| to other East European contries.
|
| * Women were forced to emansipate in the East, because they
| needed to work, whereas in the West they could afford being
| housewifes. And a surprising consequence, in the West a man
| can't be friends with a married woman -- Ossies living in the
| West complained of that too.
|
| That's what I've heard from them and some my own superficial
| impressions from radio. I can't confirm that, but sure it's
| more or less founded info.
| iSnow wrote:
| >in the West a man can't be friends with a married woman
|
| Nah, that's no longer true as of today. It used to be like
| that in the 60+ generation, but among younger people, it
| really depends on the partners involved.
| goodells wrote:
| Even decades after reunification, the socioeconomic
| differences between areas that used to be East and West
| Germany are still very apparent.
| killerpopiller wrote:
| for example?
| fxtentacle wrote:
| On the way between Hamburg and Berlin, there's an area
| that looks like a deserted warzone. It's where all the
| young people came from that moved to big cities for the
| better job opportunities. The people that remain are
| elderly / unemployed, so naturally those villages will
| decay. The east had quite some areas that relied on local
| industry and/or farming for people's income. During the
| unification, most industry was auctioned off to
| westerners, so the east took a pretty big hit, both in
| terms of losing company tax revenue and in terms of
| losing high-skilled labor.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| This is the precise problem that rural America has with
| youth abandoning the rural areas.
|
| The cure for this is immigration, but the people that
| remain in the rural areas are very right wing and very
| xenophobic.
| downrightmike wrote:
| There are a lot of areas in the east that are abandoned
| and falling into decay.
| malandrew wrote:
| https://vividmaps.com/germany-is-still-divided-by-east-
| and-w...
| SonicScrub wrote:
| Here's a good image detailing the wage differences
| between East-West. Similar charts can be found for GDP,
| quality of life, and other assorted economic measures. As
| well as many cultural differentiators like religion. The
| wall fell decades ago, but the impacts remain, therefore
| sometimes it makes sense to distinguish between the two.
|
| https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.
| org...
| bagels wrote:
| https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/06/east-
| german...
| dnissley wrote:
| Found this analysis of the wealth gap between east and
| west germans: https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/121
| 292/1/837461987.p...
|
| TL;DR: at the 50th percentile, net worth of west germans
| was ~40k in 2012 vs ~14k for east germans (in euros).
| kesselvon wrote:
| East Germans are a lot poorer, the East German economy is
| a lot lower productivity and investment, and politically
| the old DDR states lean a bit more right (ripe area for
| AfD recruitment).
|
| Some West germans still look down on Ossies, even though
| Merkel was one herself. It's a lot like how northern
| states look down on southern states in the U.S.
| bserge wrote:
| Well, I've got a surprise for you
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Ignoring Merkel and the former President Gauck, the
| percentage of Ossis in prestigious, affluent or
| influential positions is very subpar. Enterpreneurs,
| CEOs, well-known artists, professors, generals, judges
| ... are disproportionally Wessis, and immigrated Wessis
| dominate in those positions even in former GDR.
|
| IIRC the discrepancy between population share and elite
| share for Ossis is even worse than for American blacks.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| Look at a night time aerial photo of Berlin, you can
| still see where the wall was (via the color temp of the
| lights). Reintegration takes a while.
| iSnow wrote:
| That special photo is really old by now. Today, you have
| to know where the wall was to know. Berlin has switched
| to LED-lighting for all new street lights.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| I see the effects of redlining in the US carry on for
| decades after physical barriers like highways have been
| removed, so I absolutely believe it.
| burmer wrote:
| Yeah, that's why so many ships are registered to specific
| countries too, so they can operate with looser restrictions.
| It's basically "offshoring" but for the regulations. When I
| worked in fisheries, I remember seeing so many boats registered
| to Panama, and never knew why:
| http://www.pmacertification.com/advantages-of-registering-a-...
| joe_the_user wrote:
| _And, your outrage does nothing, because people who mistreat
| others professionally are quite used to the complaining,
| including yours. I am not at all surprised at this article._
|
| I enjoyed your post until this sentence. The article describes
| a situation gradually deteriorating into a crisis. The barrier
| between people complaining and things actually happening are
| indeed high but I still believe taking note of a crisis is a
| first step to acting.
| indigochill wrote:
| > taking note of a crisis is a first step to acting.
|
| Yes, in the same way overcoming denial is the first step in
| personal recovery. The trouble is, like a depressed alcoholic
| who doesn't care that drink's ruining their life, it's not
| that those running the company are in denial about the way
| they're abusing their employees. It's that they know it and
| don't care.
|
| What's the path from here to them caring, though? One thing
| that might help is if their clients stopped doing business
| with them, but do their clients care?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The shipping company's clients will stop doing business
| with them if the shipping company cared, by switching to
| their competitors who do not care and will sell to them at
| lower prices.
|
| The only solutions are political, with some combination of
| giving those people being subject to abuse better options
| so that the abusers are not able to abuse, and by making
| said abuses illegal.
| pasquinelli wrote:
| i particularly liked that part, because too often it seems
| people conflate posting for meaningful action, to the point
| that posting is a hinderence to meaningful action.
| amelius wrote:
| > I enjoyed your post until this sentence.
|
| Why? The problem with complaining (such as in an echo chamber
| like HN often is too) is that it is a way to vent
| frustration, taking the pressure of an issue. So in a way
| complaining actually helps the ones you are complaining
| about.
| chmsky00 wrote:
| A whole lot of people take the "I lived through a real
| crisis..." then detail their life during the gas shortage or
| something.
|
| Unfortunately most do not see anything as a crisis until a
| literal one of sufficient scale is upon us.
| duckfruit wrote:
| This sounds fascinating. I'm interested to learn more. How does
| one go about paying for passage on a cargo ship?
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I couldn't tell you search terms, but ISTR that there a HN
| user who has a site that finds ships with available berthing
| and prices.
| rudian wrote:
| Last time I googled this I found it was quite expensive,
| basically cruise-level per-night prices, at least in my area.
| Perhaps if you contact the shipping companies directly you
| can arrange something cheaper.
| dougmwne wrote:
| I have read that too. It seems bizarre that it would be
| expensive, but there may be a supply an demand issue for
| the number of people who cannot or will take flight vs. the
| very limited number of transatlantic and transpacific ship
| crossings.
| fiftyacorn wrote:
| There are probably tax reasons for offering it and they
| would prefer not too many people to take them up on it
| ksdale wrote:
| I assume it used to be far more informal and sort of a
| handshake deal you'd make with the captain, and then the
| companies formalized it but it was still cheap because no
| one knew/wanted to do it, but then as the possibility
| becomes common knowledge, there are way more people who
| want to do it than there are spots for, so they raise the
| price.
| Ekaros wrote:
| It is not their core-business like cruises or ferry
| companies. So there is probably very substantial overhead
| in coordination, billing and so on. Same goes for
| anything from any company, technically they can provide
| service and even might do, but price it is sensible due
| to extra work is high.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I could see them considering a risk factor into that
| pricing. What "normal" person would look to travel this
| way? Someone with something to hide perhaps? Someone hoping
| to skirt some of the more rigorous screening of other
| travel options, specifically regarding their "luggage"?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I've never done this, but if you read stories by people
| who have, they appreciate not having 3,000 other tourists
| on the boat; just a few dozen or so, plus the crew
| members who don't talk to you.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| OP here - there were zero other passengers, and it was
| exactly the way you say.. the crew did not talk to me..
| It was great! many long hours of ocean, days, nights, out
| in the far blue.. with no computers at all. When I
| arrived in Japan I was so rested! the passage into Tokyo
| Bay was so memorable! it takes time.. it was an antidote
| and clarity..
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| The ocean is a different place in so many ways.
|
| My cousin is a Merchant Marine Engineer. Some big ships can't
| leave port without one, yet they are in short supply. So he's
| paid a lot per voyage. Two or three multi-week voyages and he'd
| done working for the year.
|
| Early on in his career, an officer would request his passport. To
| make things go faster in port, all the passports could be
| presented at once for quicker clearing of customs etc.
|
| Of course he learned immediately, this meant he could not leave
| the ship in foreign port. And the officer sandbagged when he
| requested his passport back. The result was, he was essentially
| held captive for several months aboard ship, several times longer
| than he was contracted for. And the ship could count on having an
| Engineer for every leg of the journey.
|
| Now he knows better, keeps his passport on his person at all
| times.
| chefkoch wrote:
| Huh?
|
| I assume he is a westener, so just tell customs your held
| against your will and the guy with passports goes to jail.
| codazoda wrote:
| I was just reading about Cuba the other day. It seems that only
| the captain can leave the ship there until all passengers are
| cleared. I presume he needs to take their passports with him.
| That creates a bit of a catch-22 here.
| downrightmike wrote:
| Seems like you should order a second passport once you have
| the first. Give the Capt the first one that is now invalid,
| but since he can't scan it, how will he know?
| nicoburns wrote:
| In the UK you can actually legitimately get two passports
| if you can show you need it for work (I think it's
| typically for travelling to countries who don't like each
| other and won't let you in if you have stamps from the
| other one). I wonder if this would count.
| sytelus wrote:
| I still don't understand why passports are required in official
| paper. It's just a bar code that guy scans to retrieve the
| official record with photo ID on their server. Anything printed
| on paper passport is worthless and untrustworthy.
| woodruffw wrote:
| > It's just a bar code that guy scans to retrieve the
| official record with photo ID on their server.
|
| This would require a fully connected graph between all
| Departments of State around the world (i.e., the holders of
| their respective countries' passport DBs), and that is
| _definitely_ not the case. It will also never be the case,
| since there are various geopolitical advantages to having a
| secret passport database (like being able to mint identities
| for spies, or deny the existence of a person).
|
| The bar code you're referring to is just a machine-readable
| version of the information printed on the paper. It doesn't
| carry any proof of authenticity.
| dylan604 wrote:
| A nosy customs official can flip through the other stamps in
| the passport to see if you've been some place that makes you
| suspect. Also, certain countries will tag your passport which
| marks you for automatic extra inspections without even
| looking at your photo/name info. This happened to me
| specifically in Australia.
| Aachen wrote:
| If only that was how it worked. Even within the country of
| origin they don't always have access to such a system easily,
| let alone between countries.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| That's surprising that is still happening nowadays.
|
| My brother is a Merchant Mariner. I think he is officer first
| class now but he worked his way up from AB.
|
| He just left out, he is probably going to be on the ship 8
| months, maybe more depending. It used to be 3 months on 3 off.
|
| The contract he had gotten back from was supposed to be that
| but because of the world right now ended up being 6 months. I
| think he was only back for 3 before they called him back.
|
| He was the health and safety officer on his last outing, said
| that people were going crazy. Kept imagining they were getting
| Covid when they had been to sea after a month, said that there
| was a suicide on another vessel by someone who thought he was
| sick.(either was worried everyone was going to hate him for
| spreading the disease or afraid he would spread it to others.)
|
| Hope your cousin is staying safe out there. Don't know your
| nationality but the hopefully he can warn others quietly about
| that, the US is supposed to have a guild/union but I hear they
| aren't always the best.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| When I worked with a container shipping company there was a
| mechanic trapped on a ship for months past his shore date but
| there was no one to cover him. He looked at me, the computer guy
| from the office, carrying a large wrench, like he wanted to kill
| me just to get off the ship.
| mesh wrote:
| If interested in reading more on this, and other abuses on the
| sea:
|
| The Outlaw Ocean https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Ocean-Journeys-
| Untamed-Frontie...
|
| This is based on a series of articles the author wrote for the
| New York Times:
| https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/24/world/the-out...
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| This was a shocking and eye opening series for me. Complete
| lawlessness, murder and mayhem; which is rampant in certain
| areas of the world.
|
| I had been under the impression that international waters were
| much more regulated. Man oh man, was I wrong.
| Thlom wrote:
| Ports are very regulated. International waters not so much.
| hansthehorse wrote:
| Which is why you have to very careful if you gamble on a
| cruise ship. They answer to no gaming commission, nobody
| inspects their gaming machines and you are basically
| trusting the company to run fair games.
| mcculley wrote:
| I have enjoyed playing blackjack in Las Vegas. I once
| went on a cruise ship out of Port Canaveral. I caught the
| dealer cheating twice by miscounting. I haven't played on
| a cruise ship since then.
| bluGill wrote:
| True, though in general they try to be a bit honest. They
| still need to maintain reputation and repeat business is
| a big part of their clients.
|
| That doesn't mean the slots will be more than 80% payout,
| but there will be a payout to someone.
| myself248 wrote:
| Every time I've heard the phrase "international waters", it
| is specifically in reference to the lack of regulation.
| bena wrote:
| There's a slightly older book on the same topic
|
| The Outlaw Sea: https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Sea-World-
| Freedom-Chaos/dp/086...
|
| It's a pretty good look into the world of international sea
| travel as well. It even gets into the ship-breaking industry as
| well.
| mbil wrote:
| I'll add that there was a 99% Invisible episode on this topic:
| https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/abandoned-ships/
| randlet wrote:
| Seconded. I listened to the audio book. Eye opening to say the
| least.
| phkahler wrote:
| How about the crew sells the ship for scrap. Had they left after
| their pay stopped the ship would be abandoned. Not sure how
| salvage works, but isnt there an element of "finders keepers"? If
| you dont work for the company as evidenced by them not paying you
| for X months, aren't you the finder of a big floating pule of
| scrap?
|
| I'm sure there's a flaw in my logic...
| trhway wrote:
| at some point they will raise the Jolly Rodger.
|
| >Without Pay, Food or a Way Home
|
| the civilized version would be to go the local authorities and
| initiate abandoned property/lien proceedings against the ship and
| the cargo for some port fees/fines for some violations by the
| ship (which is easy to commit if you're in control of the ship)
| or do a bit of freight Uber - after all you have a ship :).
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| Usually they are scared of retaliation in their home countries.
| If they weren't going to ultimately be returned to their port
| of origin I'm sure more would just abandon the ships at first
| sign of trouble.
|
| It'd be better if they did, really, as then it would cause
| authorities in the port countries to pierce the veil and shake
| down the owners.
| trhway wrote:
| Never heard that being an issue. As long as the crew is
| sticking together. Back in 199x my father worked on a fish
| trawling fleet which consisted of a former USSR ships
| "privatized" by a "New Russian" businessman. The fleet at
| various times - depending on success/failure of negotiations
| with whatever warlord would happen to control given territory
| on a given morning - was based at various places in
| Mozambique and Somali. The fleet owner having no laws over
| him and being otherwise very shrewd and unscrupulous and
| being perfectly able to reach say our family in Russia
| (though that would really be against his interests) had never
| even delayed payments to the crew as that would mean angering
| 20-30 able bodied men who are in control of one of his ships
| in a place with practically no laws (and with the crews of
| the other ships definitely not in support of the owner on
| that issue).
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| They need to scuttle their ships.
| rob74 wrote:
| Might be an alternative if you're off the coast of, say,
| Romania. I wouldn't recommend it off the coast of Somalia
| though...
| dk1138 wrote:
| I agree...it would send a message to beach these ships in high-
| visibility areas
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