[HN Gopher] Iceland stops using Moderna Covid-19 vaccine
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       Iceland stops using Moderna Covid-19 vaccine
        
       Author : busymom0
       Score  : 43 points
       Date   : 2021-10-08 21:24 UTC (1 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www-visir-is.translate.goog)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www-visir-is.translate.goog)
        
       | OrvalWintermute wrote:
       | I don't think we understand the true legal ramifications yet, of
       | forcing an experimental vaccine on so many. We knew about the
       | pericarditis, the myocarditis, the blood clots, and the
       | autoimmune disorders, the deaths, they are well documented in
       | VAERS, even if massively undercounted.
       | 
       | And yet, our political class did not stop
       | 
       | Then Delta emerged, and vaccine efficacy dropped wholesale. Work
       | was made conditional based on jabs. Science became a mantra, but
       | in actuality it was ignored as the strong evidence for natural
       | immunity was silenced. Bigtech previcated, and floundered,
       | attaching notes to obituaries and criticism. Disinformation
       | replaced information, as vaxxes were pushed on those with de
       | minimis risk of covid, the 18 year olds without co-morbidities
       | with 1 in 5 million chances of dying.
       | 
       | And yet, our political class did not stop.
       | 
       | Now, other democracies with medical systems in many cases
       | matching our own are halting some of the vaccine distribution. It
       | looks like the Chinese with their attenuated vaccines definitely
       | had a better approach. But there is still an active mandate in
       | several sectors of the economy, and an unconstituional campaign
       | to deny religious exemptions that will likely eviscerate
       | employment. Nurses are leaving in droves rather than vaccinate,
       | having seen the side effects up close and personal.
       | 
       | When will our political class stop?
       | 
       | I sincerely believe we are ahead of the curve on a wave of class
       | action lawsuits the likes of which this country has never seen.
       | Tobacco, Asbestos, and every other toxic substances could pale in
       | comparison to the potential payouts from the deaths, injuries,
       | and reduced longevity coming from these leaky, toxic vaccines.
        
         | margalabargala wrote:
         | >forcing an experimental vaccine on so many
         | 
         | I'm not aware of an experimental vaccine being forced on
         | anyone, can you provide an example?
         | 
         | Back when all vaccines were operating under an EUA and were
         | experimental, there were zero vaccine mandates.
         | 
         | After a vaccine was fully approved and shown to be
         | unequivocally safe and effective, it was then no longer
         | experimental. Mandating vaccines that are shown to be effective
         | and safe is as old as the USA is as a country, and this is no
         | outlier.
        
           | bjt2n3904 wrote:
           | Yeah, it wasn't forced on anyone! Nobody grabbed you and held
           | you down and injected you... You just couldn't travel, go out
           | in public, work at your job, or send your kids to school
           | without it.
           | 
           | Totally voluntary.
        
             | margalabargala wrote:
             | What country are you in that disallowed being in public
             | without a vaccine? That didn't happen anywhere in the US
             | that I'm aware of.
             | 
             | As for the rest, again, mandating vaccination is something
             | the US has been doing over and over since the year 1777.
             | This is nothing new.
             | 
             | The parent claimed that this vaccine mandate was
             | specifically paired with the vaccine still being in an
             | experimental state, which to my knowledge is not the case.
        
               | bjt2n3904 wrote:
               | Mandates are totally not happening!
               | 
               | But if they are, it's not in the US.
               | 
               | And if it is in the US, there's legal precedent, and
               | totally valid.
        
               | jjtheblunt wrote:
               | what vaccine was out in 1777? or do you mean 1776 + 1?
        
           | iammisc wrote:
           | There is no fully approved vaccine available in the United
           | States.
           | 
           | Most working people now need one to work or they face
           | termination as loss of livelihood
           | 
           | Stop pretending it's not required. We're not all trust
           | finders.
        
             | dragonwriter wrote:
             | > There is no fully approved vaccine available in the
             | United States.
             | 
             | Comirnaty (Pfizer-BioNTech) is fully approved for those 16
             | and over, and has been since late August.
        
             | margalabargala wrote:
             | You're mistaken. The Pfizer vaccine is fully approved and
             | available in the United States. Source:
             | https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-
             | appr...
             | 
             | I never claimed it wasn't required, just that what was
             | required was not experimental.
        
           | colechristensen wrote:
           | Unequivocal? There is literally no doubt as to the "safety"?
           | That is demonstratively not true. On several occasions,
           | several of the vaccines have been halted by several separate
           | health authorities over safety concerns. That is not zero
           | doubt. This story is about exactly that.
           | 
           | You have to come up with a definition of "experimental" that
           | suits you, and "emergency authorization" doesn't sound like
           | very well tested and understood.
           | 
           | People don't understand risks very well nor can they compare
           | risks very well and that has been demonstrated over and over
           | again.
           | 
           | Covid vs vaccine risks vary quite a lot depending on what
           | kind of person you are.
           | 
           | If you are quite old or have significant health problems, it
           | is pretty easy to demonstrate with high confidence that the
           | vaccine risk is way smaller than the Covid risk (many orders
           | of magnitude).
           | 
           | If you are very young (say a healthy teenager) the Covid risk
           | is very low and the uncertainties of the vaccine risks start
           | to compete where it is much harder to have confidence that
           | for a population vaccinating is a better idea. People also
           | can have different appetites for risk and different appetites
           | for the good of the individual vs the good of the many.
           | 
           | The problems with vaccination are many people pretend they
           | are perfect or evil who are either knowingly distorting the
           | truth or repeating lies or dogma. Also many people desire
           | authorization solutions for everyone to agree with them.
           | 
           | What is actually needed are attempts to accurately represent
           | risks and unknowns, and comparisons of those risks and
           | unknowns which update over time as the unknowns get smaller.
           | There also needs to be the ability to acknowledge that a
           | crossover point may exist where on one side one decision may
           | be better than on the other.
           | 
           | People though are being used to turn any contentious issue
           | into political dogma and opportunities to signal morality.
           | 
           | The situation is not as simple as you and many people make
           | it.
        
         | orra wrote:
         | > Then Delta emerged, and vaccine efficacy dropped wholesale.
         | 
         | This is bollocks.
         | 
         | Pre-Delta, if double vaccinated the vaccines are about 95%
         | effective against severe illness and death. Post Delta, about
         | 92%.
         | 
         | That's still incredible, and actually pretty high as vaccines
         | go.
        
           | stock_toaster wrote:
           | Further, even in cases of "breakthrough" infection, mortality
           | rate is significantly reduced with the vaccine vs
           | unvaccinated. I think people just assume that a
           | "breakthrough" means "didn't work", but that isn't
           | necessarily the case!
        
             | Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
             | Yup!
             | 
             | Breakthrough infection and breakthrough disease are
             | entirely different things.
             | 
             | Ask any ICU nurse what percentage of their COVID patients
             | are unvaccinated. Every article I've seen reports at least
             | 90% are unvaccinated, and of the remaining 10% that were,
             | they were either very old or had a severe immune
             | deficiency.
        
           | monksy wrote:
           | Depends on the vaccine you're referring to. Pfizer dropped
           | quite a bit.
           | 
           | This is the CDC study that confirmed this (plus
           | summarization): https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1436389
           | 153533464597?la... This cross validates the finding from the
           | MN DPH and Israel MOH report on pfizer from June.
           | 
           | Moderna came on top with a VE of 95% under delta.
           | 
           | If you didn't read this: You should still be vaccinated. If
           | you're under Pfizer wear KN95s, KF94s, and N95s. This not an
           | arguement against vaccination.
        
         | paganel wrote:
         | Vaccine is the only thing that can (and does) make this
         | pandemic manageable. I write this comment from Bucharest, where
         | vaccine hesitancy (among other factors) have made it so that
         | only about 30% of the adult population is vaccinated. We have
         | ambulance queues in front of most of the Covid hospitals,
         | patients are "deposited" (for lack of a better word) on
         | hospital hallways, the luckier ones on make-shift beds, the
         | more recent ones on chairs, hanging on to an oxygen tube
         | between their legs. Almost all the other European countries
         | have higher vaccination rates than us, they do not have our
         | current problems.
        
       | stock_toaster wrote:
       | Autotranslated article, and really thin on details.
       | 
       | A confusing passage:
       | 
       | > According to the [Chief Epidemiologist], the Moderna vaccine
       | has for the past two months been used almost exclusively here for
       | stimulation vaccinations after the Janssen vaccine and after two-
       | dose vaccinations for the elderly and immunocompromised. Very few
       | individuals are said to have received the second dose of the
       | basic vaccine that started with Moderna.
       | 
       | Any Icelandic readers here? Is my reading correct that they were
       | using Moderna as a booster after a vaccination with either
       | Janssen or a two shot series of Phizer?
        
         | graeme wrote:
         | I read that a few times and yes, came to the same conclusion as
         | you. Moderna as a booster after either J and J or two dose
         | series (which were both moderna and pfizer or az)
        
       | aazaa wrote:
       | > According to the epidemiologist, the Moderna vaccine has for
       | the past two months been used almost exclusively here for
       | stimulation vaccinations after the Janssen vaccine and after two-
       | dose vaccinations for the elderly and immunocompromised. Very few
       | individuals are said to have received the second dose of the
       | basic vaccine that started with Moderna.
       | 
       | Assuming the translation is correct, this could be a problem in
       | itself. I'm unaware of a single study on the safety or efficacy
       | of mixing vaccine types like this.
        
         | solarpunk wrote:
         | I think there's like a half-dozen countries doing heterologous
         | vaccination regimens. Here's a Wikipedia link about it
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine_clinical_re...
        
         | stinky613 wrote:
         | The part that confuses me the most is that the two 'vaccine
         | side effects' in question are the swelling of muscles in or
         | around the heart... But side effects of (even mild[1]) COVID
         | infections include _damage_ to muscles in or around the heart.
         | 
         | It seems like halting the use of a flu vaccine because of the
         | flu vaccine causing flu-like symptoms.
         | 
         | [1]https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
         | conditions/coronavirus/i...
        
       | grillvogel wrote:
       | it almost seems like we needed to wait to get more data before
       | forcing people to take experimental vaccines in order to keep
       | their employment
        
         | bongcloud420 wrote:
         | FoLlOw ThE sCiEnCe
        
       | Lammy wrote:
       | Are we already into 2027 on the SPARS timeline? Hopefully that
       | means this will be over soon and we can all stop hating each
       | other quite so much :)
       | https://stars.library.ucf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10...
        
       | [deleted]
        
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       (page generated 2021-10-08 23:01 UTC)