[HN Gopher] My first industry job: lies, deceptions, and layoffs
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My first industry job: lies, deceptions, and layoffs
Author : azhenley
Score : 141 points
Date : 2021-10-11 15:37 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jeremyaboyd.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jeremyaboyd.com)
| [deleted]
| unyttigfjelltol wrote:
| >I honestly do not know HOW I made it through that interview, not
| to mention then GOT THE JOB.
|
| The story suggests two possibilities: (1) it was transparently
| obvious to the hiring team that the position was 6 months on a
| DOA project at a laughable salary no qualified employee would
| consider, or (2) the people doing the hiring were faking it right
| alongside the OP.
| mst wrote:
| I think I got my first programming job because the interviewers
| noticed I was smart and driven and figured I'd be cheap enough
| they could afford to give me a go.
|
| That company was less dysfunctional than the one in the
| article, admittedly, although arguably not by much.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Haha. I _know_ that was why I got my first job because the
| senior engineer told me about a year later. They figured I 'd
| stay long enough to get some use out of me before I realized
| that I was underpaid.
|
| Joke's on them though. I liked the job so much I didn't care
| that I was underpaid :-(
| mst wrote:
| I was perfectly happy with being underpaid until I had a CV
| with enough experience on it to get a better paid job, and
| because I was cheap they let me do a lot of experimenting
| and learning.
|
| Mutually advantageous overall :D
| asdfman123 wrote:
| Incompetent people don't want to hire good employees. Like
| recognizes like.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| (3) both of the above
| buescher wrote:
| And this is how we got to leetcode
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| We need "leetcode for managers."
| tbihl wrote:
| How's this?
|
| https://www.pmi.org/certifications/project-management-pmp
| [deleted]
| darthvoldemort wrote:
| I have a VERY similar experience with my first job, except 10
| years earlier.
|
| My first job was in IT at a bank. I was working with Windows NT
| and a migration to Windows NT 4.0 across the entire company. I
| learned a hell of a lot about Windows NT but I knew I wanted to
| be a programmer. So every day after work, I would just program on
| my own, doing various projects.
|
| After a year and a half, I interviewed for a programming job at
| another company. I 100% lied and said I was doing programming at
| the bank, but was able to pass the interview questions (this was
| mid-90s so they weren't anywhere as difficult as they are today).
| I got the job, and from then on I could label myself as an actual
| programmer.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I've actually found that there are a lot of BIG companies now
| that will do a take-home "task" which are usually pretty easy
| to accomplish. They are wanting to make sure you can program
| something, not memorize leetcode interview questions.
|
| A buddy of mine showed me a take home task from one of the
| FAANGs that was a 3 hour task, that would literally take only
| 30 minutes for most mid-level developers.
|
| So hopefully that means that programmer interviews with
| leetcode and a bunch of algorithm-centric questions are
| becoming less and less popular.
| lovich wrote:
| I and a friend have just done the interview cycle this year
| and, anecdotally at least, it seems like most companies are
| giving the take home test _and_ leet code questions.
|
| The average number of rounds I was going through was 10-11
| and that was consistent through applying at companies via
| Hired, recruiters, and applying to jobs off of HN and
| StackOverflow.
|
| The only job I applied to that had less than 5 rounds was a
| small business that wanted to hired a senior engineer to
| rebuild their Java 5 app entirely for 120k/yr and no benefits
| beyond healthcare and be in office several times a week.
|
| It's kinda made me dead to any complaints from software
| businesses about not being able to hire anyone. They are
| simultaneously forcing their employees to jump ship if they
| want a raise, trying to force people back into the office for
| seemingly no reason but to show they can, _and_ constantly
| raising the level of effort needed to even apply for their
| positions.
|
| Anecdotally again, it's gotten to the point where I know
| three engineers who've just dropped out of the industry
| entirely and they are all <30 and not financially
| independent. They've taken the extra money they saved from
| working tech and are now using it to get themselves into a
| position where they are doing _anything_ but work for a tech
| company.
|
| At some point the industry is going to have to face the fact
| that it can't scale anymore due to the jobs being
| antithetical to most people's mental well being
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| My next big move will likely be completely out of tech as
| well.
|
| I'm not sure when I will do it, but I've been setting aside
| a little money every week to buy/take over my wife's
| grandpa's business (handcrafted furniture - they sell 50-90
| pieces per month all on pen and paper and over the phone
| and personally deliver the products).
|
| I'll probably work on automating most of the more laborious
| parts (rough cutting templated pieces is one of the biggest
| time sinks, the other is hand spraying finish), and recycle
| more of their waste either into more furniture products or
| into something like wood pellets for heating or cooking.
| lovich wrote:
| It's completely flabbergasting how much the tech
| companies are doubling down on it. At first I was angry
| at them for making poor moves but the entire industry
| does and has done this for years, and now I'm just
| curious as to what I'm missing.
|
| There seems to be some pathological need for employers to
| only hire AAA 100x employees who happen to know all the
| rigors of academic computer science and being top tier
| engineers who are perfectly pragmatic and can solve the
| toughest and most novel software issues. They then take
| these employees who manage to pass that bar and put them
| in charge of plumbing together crud apps for the next two
| years. I recently found out from friends that I am trying
| to get into the industry, that they are being subjected
| to a round on system design for distributed and scaleable
| systems for entry level positions. At least one of those
| companies I know won't let entry level engineers even
| look at something bigger than method until they have a
| few months under their belt. I just wish I understood the
| disconnect between what employers and demanding in the
| interview process and what they actually demand for their
| job roles
| citizenpaul wrote:
| What I find interesting is even looking back he still has no
| awareness of the situation going on. I find this to be a huge
| issue with developers in general, they don't seem to ever pick up
| on social skills even when it is right in their face.
|
| He got in because no one cared about anything other than someone
| willing to push through boring contract design work for low AF
| pay. He seems to still believe his lying(skill?) is what got him
| the job. It sort of was in the sense they wanted someone young
| dumb delusional and enthusiastic to work for next to nothing on
| what was essentially boring boilerplate work. In a system that
| even at the time he could see was a disaster to work in. Then
| used him as a negotiating tool to lay off other decently paid
| workers after he "proved" that what they did to him could be
| done. He calls them "expert manipulators" but there is nothing
| expert here, this is ham-fisted pointed haired boss 101.
|
| TL;DR the company wanted a useful idiot with enthusiasm to push
| through a broken system to do a mind numbing job for next to no
| pay. The author still doesn't seem to get this.
| fezzez wrote:
| Completely agree. That was my takeaway as well.
| spfzero wrote:
| I kind of guessed a different situation, where a small
| development team has asked repeatedly for more staff, since
| they were not making acceptable progress. Owner balks for
| months because maybe money is tight, but finally relents. Says
| 'you can add someone, but we can only pay 30K.' Devs probably
| thought they could at least unload some gruntwork onto the new
| person and free up time to accelerate development.
|
| This was a small business with a late product. Probably
| circling the drain, and not much cash flow to play with.
|
| The only way an owner would approve a rewrite suggested by his
| most junior dev with only a few weeks on the job, is out of
| pure desperation.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| At 18 and a few weeks old, I did NOT have the awareness. At 33
| and a few months, though, I feel I'm better aware of being
| taken advantage of, and have raised my hourly requirements to
| better suit contract work. I had no negotiation skills, and
| even if I did, they wouldn't have upped the pay, and then I
| would have been back to working at a call center for $8/hr.
|
| The job was a crap job, but that job taught me a LOT about
| being a software developer.
| ecshafer wrote:
| Any crap software job is better than a crap retail, crap food
| service or crap call center job. You made the right move, and
| I am sure even a crap $30k a year software dev job paid
| dividends in experience. Coming right out of high school you
| did the right thing
| kbenson wrote:
| Agreed, because a crap software job is like a crap
| apprentice job to a tradesman. The work might suck, but
| there's knowledge being imparted or, at least there to be
| sought out or absorbed.
|
| It's the same reason a few years apprenticed to a plumber
| or carpenter is better than a few years in retail. At least
| you'll have come out the other end with something more
| applicable to a career, if you decide to pursue it.
| asdfman123 wrote:
| I've learned not to regret my early failures in life. They're
| usually low-cost ways to prevent more significant failures
| later.
|
| You're as smart as you are today BECAUSE you made those
| mistakes. You've gotten the painful part out of the way.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I agree. And like I concluded the post. I would probably do
| it all exactly the same.
| mst wrote:
| My first programming job was at minimum wage.
|
| They were using me for cheap labour, I was using them to get
| a CV that allowed me to get a real salary somewhere else
| later.
|
| I literally said this to the director who hired me (a few
| months in, in his office with nobody else around) and was
| rewarded with a huge grin because I'd guessed correctly that
| he'd prefer cheap labour who -understood- that was the deal
| and wasn't afraid to own their half of it.
|
| Worked out fine for me, and I did duly leave to take a much
| better paid job after about a year.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| Not sure where you were, but a lot of the UK is actually
| pretty livable on minimum wage, so then you decide are you
| going to do 20 hours at McDonalds and have time for
| friends, or 40 hours at minimum wage and build your career.
|
| As much as I hate to admit it: I'm all for abandoning
| friends at 18-20 for the career focus. Then bring back the
| handful of them that stuck by you.
| mst wrote:
| I was in Lancaster, and it was livable, yes.
|
| Plus being cheap meant my management were pretty open to
| "I don't know how to do that -yet-, but I think I have an
| idea what I'd need, can I have a few days to research it
| and get back to you?" which was -very- helpful to my
| learning process.
|
| Looking back, I don't regret the choice at all.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I had been planning recently on taking a multi-year
| hiatus and moving to the midlands and attending
| university (for the visa and NHS), because after
| researching it, 3 years of university and living expenses
| are roughly what 3 European vacations cost anyway. And
| this would make vacationing to Europe a lot cheaper than
| from the states.
| mst wrote:
| If it hadn't been for the NHS, I don't think I'd ever
| have risked going freelance.
|
| Though you might also want to consider Germany - a lot of
| bits are liveable primarily speaking english and they're
| not currently suffering from the "fun" of brexit.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I had been hoping the "fun" of Brexit would have made my
| dollar stretch further, but each time I see it drop
| toward dollar parity, my hopes are dashed. Sorry if it is
| a bit morbid of me to wish the pound would lose value so
| that I as an American can go there for cheap.
| mst wrote:
| Eh, maybe it is morbid but $partner gets paid in USD so
| it would be to our household's advantage as well ;)
| mywittyname wrote:
| You took the best option presented to you. A fresh-faced 18
| year old isn't presented with much in the way of good career
| opportunities.
|
| Our stories are pretty similar. My first dev job paid $9/hr!
| Sure, in some ways you could consider that to be "taken
| advantage of" but only because we were successful. Had either
| of us been flunkies, we would be the ones taking advantage!
|
| When you hire an 18 year old for an important job, you know
| the risks and the potential payoffs.
| ferdowsi wrote:
| They don't teach "pointed haired boss 101" in school. It's
| great that you are smart, and know this stuff now. But most
| people have to go through the hard lessons of having their good
| will and faith be abused by bad-faith actors.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| They do, actually, but you have to seek those courses out
| yourself. Problem is that most engineers don't realize that
| Psychology and Organizational Behavior are important to learn
| until it's too late.
|
| And yeah, I'm one of those who had to play catch up later and
| learn all that stuff the hard(er) way.
| VRay wrote:
| They should, though.. I had one profess with real world
| experience who tried to explain this stuff, and the other
| dozen or so were lifelong academics who didn't know anything
| about reality. Really wish I'd listened to the one more..
| zenithd wrote:
| Places like HN and Reddit (or /. back in the day) are
| fantastic resources for learning "pointed haired boss 101".
| ikiris wrote:
| Yep, bad faith actors and useful idiots are 80% of the
| commenters.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "The recruiter telling me they only had budget for $30k (no
| software engineer would have accepted that low of pay in 2006 in
| Houston), making me team leader to get me to do more work, making
| me lay off around $300k worth of employees and do their work
| myself without giving me even a dollar of extra pay."
|
| This sounds like basically every job to me. Are there actually
| places that will give you raises to pay you what you're worth
| without having to fight or leave?
| dgb23 wrote:
| Yes. It is normal to have some process or agreement in place to
| regularly talk about the past and future, including
| raises/bonuses. Every three two twelve months seems sensible to
| me depending on circumstances.
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| It's rare, but it can happen.
|
| I once negotiated a a raise in salary (of about $15k a year)
| because they wanted me to move to a much more expensive city.
| No quitting threats, it was just decided that it was a
| requirement for me to relocate.
|
| Then, the week I arrived in the new city, I got another $10k
| raise. It was because we'd just lost another senior employee to
| a large company and they wanted to preemptively retain me, but
| it was one of the few "out of nowhere" raises I have ever had.
|
| But in general, it isn't in a business's best interest to just
| offer raises without any negotiation or discussion. If a person
| isn't asking for more, why should you offer it? Like, morally,
| I totally see the argument to do it preemptively, but as a
| business function I don't.
|
| It's true that the best way to get a promotion or a significant
| raise is to get an offer at a competitor. And that sucks. But,
| it is also possible to make the argument for a promotion or
| raise without threatening to quit. I've done both over my
| career and while the competing offer tactic usually works
| faster, it isn't a pre-requisite.
|
| The one important thing to note is that if you are going to
| leverage another offer for a promotion/raise, you need to be
| prepared to walk if the company says no. If you don't, you will
| never have any leverage ever again. So my advice is always to
| not make idle threats you aren't willing to back up. I've had
| job offers before for substantially more money but at places I
| did't want to work at. I don't take those offers to my current
| employer (assuming I still want to work there). Instead, I use
| that knowledge of my value/worth to leverage get an offer at a
| place I would leave for OR to craft a better argument when I
| present my case for promotion/pay raise at my current employer.
| mywittyname wrote:
| > But in general, it isn't in a business's best interest to
| just offer raises without any negotiation or discussion. If a
| person isn't asking for more, why should you offer it? Like,
| morally, I totally see the argument to do it preemptively,
| but as a business function I don't.
|
| It demonstrates that a business values its employees,
| literally, and this does build good will. Honestly, this is
| how you keep the better employees, and you're probably
| keeping them at below-replacement rates, even if yo do give
| "generous" raises. I have a friend who gets a consistent 4-8%
| annual raise and he refuses to interview because he likes
| that reliable growth.
|
| Replacing a worker is a dice roll, and if you already have a
| five, it doesn't really make sense to let them leave for
| greener pastures in the hopes of scoring a six on the next
| role.
|
| But it definitely doesn't make sense to keep raising pay on
| take-em-or-leave-em middling employees. Let them keep doing a
| mediocre, but useful job for a few years until they leave,
| then hope you role a five or six on their replacement.
| nostrademons wrote:
| The moment the high-tech antitrust employee lawsuit was
| announced, I got a pay bump of 50%. (Literally the moment - the
| press release went out and within an hour managers were making
| the rounds and saying "Well, looks like you got a raise.") It
| equalized at about 2x my hiring comp.
|
| Makes the $1000 I got from that class action lawsuit look
| pretty piddly, though - if the whole industry's salaries were
| increased by 50% in a day, how much were we being underpaid
| before?
| kova12 wrote:
| I wonder how that employer got affected when the guy left, and
| employer was left with $300k worth of employees laid off. In
| 2007 engineers have already started being pretty hot commodity.
| bityard wrote:
| The are companies out there that will give raises to high
| performers as incentives, but it's far from standard.
| Typically, you have to _ask_ for a raise. (And, importantly,
| you need to bring _proof_ of why you deserve a raise.)
| red_trumpet wrote:
| But getting personnel responsibility should be a good reason
| to ask for a raise, right?
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Anything's a good reason to ask for a raise if you think it
| is.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I'm the author of this piece - I've had multiple jobs since
| then (obviously), and I've always been given pretty substantial
| raises and bonuses throughout my career enough to nearly 10x my
| first jobs salary in only 15 years. Now all that isn't from one
| job, but because I'm a contractor and basically set my rate
| with each new company, I invest as much as I can either in the
| stock market, or more recently into side projects and my family
| run businesses, etc.
| bityard wrote:
| I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your writing style
| and the overall message of the article. Thank you.
|
| Whenever a topic like this comes up on HN or Reddit, most of
| the comments I see are incredibly pessimistic about the job
| market and/or reek of entitlement. I'm not saying that we
| should make excuses for exploitative employers but unless you
| get extremely lucky when starting out, you just have to show
| up and put in the work, even when the works sucks, even when
| the pay sucks. Then after a little while, put that shit on
| your resume and move on to something better. Rinse, repeat.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| Thank you for saying that. I love writing down my stories.
| It is therapeutic, almost like writing them releases me
| from the bad memory. It is basically a VERY lightly edited
| stream of consciousness.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "Then after a little while, put that shit on your resume
| and move on to something better. Rinse, repeat."
|
| I guess I'm one of the pessimists.
|
| I'm 10 years in and nothing has gotten better. The benefits
| have been eroding too. It never paid off and I have trouble
| seeing it ever pay off if the first third of my career has
| been so terrible. I've become disengaged, which I'm sure
| will lead to a vicious cycle.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I can only speak from my own history, but I've worked in
| Houston, TX and NYC, and both have pretty good senior dev
| jobs available at all times.
|
| Are you maybe not applying for those higher positions?
| Junior devs will always be taken advantage of unless you
| know someone. I even took a Jr Dev job (on paper) only 6
| years ago or so, because the manager knew me. I was paid
| more than the senior developer, and he reported to me in
| practice.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I'm not allowed (have a wife) to leave my current area
| (Philly-ish). I have applied for a couple jobs. I dont
| apply to most jobs because there is no salary info or the
| salary range listed is not any better than my current
| job.
|
| I'm an intermediate developer. I've unofficially filled
| roles like senior dev and tech lead. I've also worked as
| an ASC (supposed to be reserved for senior devs). Oh well
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| If the job looks good, apply. Becoming expert at
| interviewing is a real thing and improves your ability to
| navigate the process. If they don't want to pay what
| you're asking, then you've at least benefited by getting
| one more interview experience under your belt.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I actually interview really well. It just doesn't seem to
| translate to money. (Probably because IT is a cost
| center)
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| You should apply for senior dev roles. I'm not saying
| lateral career moves are always bad (and sometimes that's
| all that is possible), but I always look at a next job as
| a way to level up. Even if I don't fit the requirements
| right then and there, I have the confidence I can do the
| role. Obviously, you shouldn't level skip - meaning apply
| for something two levels higher than where you are at
| (unless you are supremely confident in your abilities or
| are going to a smaller company where that sort of thing
| makes sense) -- but going from intermediate to senior is
| what makes sense. When hiring a senior dev, I'm not
| looking for someone with a decade of senior experience
| because that person is probably overqualified or will
| want to be quickly promoted to principal/staff . I want
| someone who can fill in the role well for a long time,
| which means someone who is intermediate but has stepped
| up to do senior work when asked, is the right move.
| giantg2 wrote:
| My problem is that all the tech I built experience with
| is obscure (Neoxam, FileNet). That's obviously in
| addition to my lack of faith in the system and being
| treated fairly.
| conductr wrote:
| Sorry just reading along and felt a need to point out
| that it seems you're likely being your own biggest
| obstacle, more so than "the system". Systems are meant to
| be hacked.
| devwastaken wrote:
| Software is simultaneously in "high demand" and continually
| in a state of lay offs, unemployment, and unhirable
| students. If you were lucky in the 2010's, sure, but dev
| work is increasingly exported and those safe and comfy
| don't have to worry about it so they don't look at what's
| going on.
| giantg2 wrote:
| It seems like nowhere will just give you a raise because it's
| the right thing, valuation-wise. You basically have to
| threaten to leave or something. My inflation adjusted
| increase over 10 years with one promotion (10%) and a masters
| degree (9%) has been 22%.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The right valuation is determined by people rejecting job
| offers (or leaving current jobs) and accepting job offers.
| Repeated cleared transactions is what allows a market to
| determine the price.
| zenithd wrote:
| This strategy can be sub-optimal from the employer's
| perspective.
|
| Consider yourself as an employer and assume your
| employees have perceived switching cost C > 0.
|
| Your employee will approach you with bids b_1, ..., b_n
| all of which are substantially larger than C. So to keep
| your employee you will need to pay C plus some premium.
| In fact, not just any premium, but probably something
| close to max(b_1, ..., b_n).
|
| If you can make good guesses at C and b_1..b_n, then you
| can retain employees by ensuring you're always giving
| raises between C and max(b_1, ..., b_n).
|
| And all of that assumes that employees are fungible at
| any particular price point. They're not; employers also
| have switching costs. Among two otherwise equivalent
| employees you'd _much_ prefer the one you already have.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| This might be true for FAANG employers or others
| employing people in high demand, but based on the
| behavior of the vast majority of employers, it is clearly
| less costly of a problem than the savings of not having
| to pay prevailing market prices for all their employees.
| giantg2 wrote:
| But can also create inefficiencies for an organization
| because they lose institutional knowledge and incur
| training costs.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Markets are more efficient when transaction information
| is public, and hence all wages should be public. Assuming
| the goal is to minimize that friction.
| giantg2 wrote:
| True. It would be great if they would at least post
| salary ranges for jobs (based on company policy and/or
| the people in the role at the company).
|
| I don't even feel like applying to most jobs. If it's not
| paying more than I make now, why should I waste my time?
| Such a pain to filter out jobs without it listed.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Colorado took the first step in that direction. If you
| are applying to a company that employs people in CO, you
| can check their CO listing.
| nradov wrote:
| Hence why some companies now explicitly disallow CO
| residents from applying for jobs. Those employers would
| rather lose out on CO talent instead of weakening their
| negotiating position by posting an explicit salary range.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Yes, but to avoid it, the employer must not have any
| employees in CO. The law applies for any position that
| can be done remotely, even if the employer does not
| intend to hire a CO resident, as long as the employer
| already has CO employees:
|
| https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsandinsights/updated-
| faqs-...
|
| >Under EPT Rule 4.3 (A), the promotion posting
| requirements do not apply to employees who are entirely
| outside of Colorado. However, if a Colorado employer has
| a promotion opportunity available anywhere in the
| company, even outside of Colorado, its Colorado employees
| must be notified. Under EPT Rule 4.3(B), job postings and
| promotional opportunities do not need to include
| compensation information if the job will be performed
| entirely outside of Colorado or if the job is posted
| entirely outside Colorado (i.e., not on the internet).
|
| >INFO #9 instructs that the out-of-state exception
| applies "narrowly," only where the job is tied to non-
| Colorado worksites (e.g., waitstaff at restaurants
| outside Colorado). Therefore, postings for remote
| positions that can be performed anywhere are subject to
| the EPEWA's requirements, even if the posting states that
| Colorado applicants won't be accepted. However, a non-
| Colorado job that may include "modest" travel to Colorado
| is still considered an out-of-state job not subject to
| the transparency requirements.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Except the ranges aren't even useful. I've seen most that
| are like $50k-150k. Not helpful at all in my opinion.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| It will take some time, and ideally more stated will
| follow. If CA/WA/OR/MA/IL/NY/NJ/CT follow, then it could
| lead to some real change.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Yes, of course there are. When I moved on (from the underpaid
| job I mentioned in another post), I got almost double the
| salary because I was so underpaid at that previous job. After
| being there a year, I was offered a 5% raise, but I negotiated
| it to about 15% IIRC because I was clearly worth it and they
| didn't want me to leave.
|
| Some companies prosper in business by being run properly,
| others do it by sheer coincidence.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I work in finance, so I think the company knows perfectly
| well what they are doing. Ifs no coincidence they are taking
| advantage of people.
| _benj wrote:
| This sounds a lot like my first few jobs too!
|
| My resume was more along the lines of "things I'm aware exist and
| I could learn if needed" than what I actually had experience
| with!
|
| But my first two roles where not tech companies thus the hiring
| people knew even less than me about what they needed ;)
|
| But for sure, I'm not sure how anybody really "becomes" a
| software engineer outside of the job itself
| mahathu wrote:
| This reminds me of a similar story recently posted to HN:
| https://bennuttall.com/the-surreal-experience-of-my-first-de...
|
| Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28058816
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > the truth was I didn't want to be there anymore but I didn't
| know how to quit on my own.
|
| This is what it comes down to. A lot of junior employees have a
| feeling that something is wrong, but they don't quite know what
| to do about it.
|
| One of the best things young engineers can do is keep in contact
| with their peers from college, prior education, or other jobs.
| Don't be afraid to discuss your job and compare notes. If you're
| consistently the only one in the conversation who's miserable or
| even embarrassed to admit your job is bad, it's time to start
| interviewing.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| > If you're consistently the only one in the conversation who's
| miserable or even embarrassed to admit your job is bad, it's
| time to start interviewing.
|
| Does this advice change if other people do think the job is
| bad?
| WorldMaker wrote:
| If everyone agrees the job is bad sometimes there is
| comradery to be found in that. Whether that is healthy
| comradery is a complicated question. My first job after
| graduate school was of that sort. Some good friends came out
| of that fire and I generally know that if I had to work again
| with anyone from that former situation I probably would, just
| not in that exact same situation. But that sort of "team
| spirit" is also its own tie that binds you to a bad situation
| and makes it worse too. You are more likely to stay and deal
| with a bad job when you have good people you work with day-
| to-day. We're a very social species that way and a lot of us
| have been convinced to stick with bad jobs or awful
| environments with good coworkers. Figuring out when to start
| interviewing in a situation like that is tough, especially if
| it starts to feel guilty like a betrayal of "team spirit".
| (In my own case it took almost a natural disaster shocking me
| to action and I still wonder if my breaking point should have
| been much earlier.)
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| "Saving the company" can be fun, and you can make some good
| friends and learn a lot in a short time. But if the company
| continually needs "saving," it's unhealthy to stay.
| hinkley wrote:
| > Whether that is healthy comradery is a complicated
| question.
|
| I've worked at a few places where it became an Us versus
| Them situation. Like we were freedom fighters, struggling
| against the oligarchy. I don't know what else we could have
| done to maintain any semblance of morale. It wasn't
| healthy, but it was the best we could do other than quit.
| In one of those it was the economy that kept us there. I
| can't say why we did in the other cases.
|
| The thing is when it's a "band together to survive"
| situation, once a couple people quit, everyone is rushing
| for the door. I think that's part of why turnover gets away
| from management so often. Everything is fine and then it's
| Not Fine before they even have time to notice it's
| happening, because they've been ignoring the warnings and
| signs as unactionable.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Indeed. I was among the first to quit in that specific
| example and while I didn't feel like anyone who quit
| after me did it specifically because I quit, it certainly
| sounded like some things steamrolled quickly after I
| left.
|
| I selfishly hoped it would have meant the end of that
| company losing so much talent, but I lost that bet
| because of course ethically questionable remoras make big
| profits so long as there are big enough sharks in the
| water.
|
| (ETA: I appreciate that job for a good salary and helping
| me get my down payment on my mortgage and some other
| things. Even if I sometimes still fight ulcers I believe
| to be from the stress of doing things I felt crossed some
| of my personal lines of ethics. Corporate life is a
| struggle.)
| ksm1717 wrote:
| Yes because then it means you associated with the wrong
| people and you are destined to be miserable
| ryandrake wrote:
| I once joined a company that was a total clown show: Product
| was a mess, no source control, no bug tracker, no release
| process, little to no QA, sales drove the product priorities,
| which changed daily, frequent trips to VIP customers to debug
| live on their equipment... with a single junior engineer
| holding everything together. He had no idea It Wasn't Supposed
| To Be This Way. We spent a lot of time talking about how it is
| at normal companies, best practices, and we both soon left for
| greener pastures. He probably would have stayed there for years
| if I hadn't opened his eyes!
| shimonabi wrote:
| Bro, I recently joined a company where the "senior" developer
| joins DB tables by strings and puts order header info and the
| order items in the same table.
| nostrademons wrote:
| If you're joining, there better be an index (or else you
| have bigger problems in your DB design). Indexes are
| usually B-trees and can look up an item in 2-3 page faults
| and ~20 memory comparisons, regardless of how big the table
| is. The page fault time dwarfs the comparison time, so in
| practice it doesn't matter whether keys are strings or
| integers. (I guess there's potentially a space premium for
| strings that makes fewer records fit on a page, but
| remember that ints are generally 64 bits now. Anything less
| than an 8-character string will be _smaller_ than the
| equivalent int, and 8-16 characters is within a factor of
| 2x.)
|
| Putting order header and order items in the same table is
| weird, but could potentially be defensible if it saves you
| a join on common queries.
| spfzero wrote:
| One problem with strings though is that they might, in
| the parent post's case, have been editable somewhere. In
| that case a user (admin user, for example) can
| unknowingly break the relation.
|
| A short string code though, only available from a lookup,
| for instance, might be acceptable. Since you already have
| a lookup though, put an int column in there and use the
| int.
| xupybd wrote:
| Joining by strings can make sense if there is a natural
| key. Often, for performance, you would use a surrogate key
| even if a natural key exists but there are rare times it
| makes sense.
| zaat wrote:
| Last week one of my employees quit. He got himself a job well
| over what I could afford paying. He was really not sure if he
| should go and was feeling very uncomfortable since we were so
| good with him and invested in him so much, which is all true. I
| told him that I would be very happy if he stay but I can't ask
| him to, and that he lives his life for himself, not for me, and
| that as general rule he should never put his employer interest
| before his own.
|
| He decided to leave, but felt very uncomfortable with it and
| felt he had to justify it to me and explain his move. I tried
| to ask him firmly never to do it, since there are people out
| there who would exploit innocent employees in similar position.
|
| You should never justify leaving a company, if you feel like
| quitting will be better for you just do it. Employment should
| always be mutual benefit deal, and just like a company would
| let you go if employing you isn't beneficial anymore you should
| leave without too much hesitation if its for your own benefit.
| I'm not saying you should be ungrateful ass, but you should put
| yourself first in your consideration, most probably nobody else
| would.
| xupybd wrote:
| You sound like a great boss.
| zaat wrote:
| I had a few terrible bosses as an example of what not to
| do.
|
| Honestly, I wasn't really happy with the guy performance. I
| do need him now, but if he wouldn't be quitting I probably
| would let him go, sooner or later, when I found someone
| with better attitude and skills. I would feel terrible with
| myself if I he would pass an opportunity being loyal to the
| company only to be shown the door few months after. I
| prefer to work with happy people who want to work where
| they do, and to achieve these you have to take care of your
| employees.
| [deleted]
| jamiepenney wrote:
| > I had a few terrible bosses as an example of what not
| to do
|
| For this reason, I think the best leaders come from
| below.
| exolymph wrote:
| It's so important to teach juniors, in any field, that it's
| just business. Dealing with problems like short staffing is
| why the company employs managers. Only assholes are
| personally offended when someone jumps ship for a raise (or
| any other reason). There are def assholes out there, but
| thankfully they aren't the majority in my experience.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| > that it's just business
|
| The really sad thing is that I've found myself teaching
| this to people who have been in industry for 30+ years.
| People are really good at coming up with justifications for
| why they shouldn't just quit.
| mooreds wrote:
| > it's just business
|
| Hear hear! I am not a hiring manager any more, but when I
| was, I wanted every developer to feel free to find the best
| spot for them. I was hoping it would be working for me, but
| sometimes it wasn't. If they realized it first, they left.
| If I realized it first, I worked with them to try to
| correct the issues, but sometimes they needed to go.
| (Having been on both sides of this situation, please make
| sure you treat everyone with as much compassion as humanly
| and legally possible.)
|
| > Dealing with problems like short staffing is why the
| company employs managers.
|
| Agreed. It isn't your job, as an employee, to be worried
| about how your job responsibilities will be taken care of
| when you are gone. Do a good job when you are there, give
| your two weeks (or whatever is customary) and move on. The
| honest truth is, either the job will get taken over by
| someone else or it wasn't as important as you thought. I've
| never had a company call me in 6 months and say "we need
| you to come back now, the ship is falling apart". Nor,
| before you impugn my abilities :) , have I ever seen that
| happen for anyone in my two decades.
|
| Sometimes I think because the work we (software devs) do is
| so esoteric and can be disconnected from people, we trick
| ourselves into thinking it is critical work and requires us
| to pour our whole lives into it.
|
| Screw that. That level of commitment is for founders.
|
| Do an honest day's work for an honest wage.
| ssully wrote:
| My first job out of college I was hired on to a team and the
| first day I was informed the lead dev on the project was moved
| to a different project and I was essentially the new lead. That
| was the first huge red flag that I failed to recognize. Luckily
| I managed to get moved to another team that I really liked and
| learned a lot from, but I basically ate shit for the first 2
| years in my career because of that.
| miketery wrote:
| Another thing is create a contract or promise with yourself
| that sets out conditions which when met would result in you
| quitting or finding something new. It's really hard in the
| moment or while on the inside to make a good decision. But if
| you thought about it before it's easier since you've reasoned
| about it before at a distance.
|
| You can always modify the contract of course. But I think a
| good reason to do this prior, is that humans are resilient and
| we can endure and adapt to range of conditions, even when
| deteriorating quickly. So remembering a certain baseline you
| set for yourself prior comes in handy!
| nitrogen wrote:
| This is a really good approach to a lot of difficult
| problems. I'd had this idea drilled into my head growing up
| of deciding carefully beforehand so you don't decide poorly
| in the heat of the moment, but somehow it hadn't occurred to
| me to apply it to the workplace. Could probably have saved
| myself a fair bit of stress this way.
| alexjplant wrote:
| > This is what it comes down to. A lot of junior employees have
| a feeling that something is wrong, but they don't quite know
| what to do about it.
|
| At my first "real" programming job I was the "go-to" guy for at
| least three people on the team yet made around 70% of the
| lowest-paid of them. They all told me at various times that my
| salary was unfair, that I had to go find a new job, and so
| forth. It didn't start to sink in until I took a voluntary
| severance and found another job for a 50% raise.
|
| When I was young I was thrilled that I was finally getting paid
| to do something that I'd done since I was 7 (write software).
| I've grown up a lot since then - whenever my friends complain
| about their job or financial situation I start badgering them
| to re-negotiate their position, interview, etc. because I've
| been in their shoes and don't want to see them make the same
| mistakes that I have.
| arenaninja wrote:
| This sounds too similar to a string of jobs I held at the start
| of my career. Promises of raises+stock options to come that never
| materialize and creeping responsibilities and no mention of pay
| (the only time I got a raise outside of getting a new job, I went
| from making $34 an hour to $35 an hour after a promotion. Not
| kidding)
|
| In fact my current job that I took almost 6 years into my career
| is the first decent role I've had. But again I find myself taking
| more responsibilities than normal for my role with the "promise"
| of support for a promotion in the "next round" (almost a year
| from now)
| [deleted]
| jlund-molfese wrote:
| Not loading for me in France, but it's up on archive.org
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20211004170618/https://jeremyabo...
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| https://archive.is/HJmMW as well.
| BuildTheRobots wrote:
| https://archive.is/G7UEe - you just beat me to it. Looks like
| archive.is doesn't deal with duplicates in the queue.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| Didn't expect this to front page, and my cloud mongo was being
| dumb, had to restart the instances.
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