[HN Gopher] Android Apps on Windows 11
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Android Apps on Windows 11
Author : MikusR
Score : 69 points
Date : 2021-10-20 15:10 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blogs.windows.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blogs.windows.com)
| alexmcc81 wrote:
| Windows is using Amazons Android store? That raises some
| uncomfortable questions about privacy:
|
| > Regardless of whether you choose to apply Amazon DRM, Amazon
| wraps your app with code that enables the app to communicate with
| the Amazon Appstore client to collect analytics, evaluate and
| enforce program policies, and share aggregated information with
| you. Your app will always communicate with the Amazon Appstore
| client when it starts, even if you choose not to apply DRM.
|
| https://www.developer.amazon.com/docs/app-submission/underst...
| nyanpasu64 wrote:
| > When your app starts on a Fire device,
|
| I don't know if the telemetry applies to all apps on the Amazon
| store, or only apps installed on Fire devices. If the former, I
| would feel very uneasy about installing Amazon store apps on
| Windows.
| gavin_gee wrote:
| (caveat i worked at MS for years but now don't)
|
| One of Microsoft's greatest strengths on show here. Embrace and
| extend.
|
| They made a mess of trying to build an app business with windows
| RT, Windows 8, windows 10. They can't get into the apple appstore
| ecosystem so they pivot to embracing the Android ecosystem to
| have an app catalog on windows.
|
| (Ironically what google did with Android was the play that
| Microsoft should have done with windows phone - classic OEM play
| which they had done successfully for years before)
| ajvs wrote:
| Unfortunately another of their strength lies in the 3rd part:
| "extinguish". It's only a matter of time before their recent
| software of WSL, GitHub and Android on Windows becomes yet
| another walled garden.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| WSL I struggle to see how WSL could ever be a walled garden.
| THe only reason it exists is because server infra (including
| a bunch of Azure!) runs linux, and loads of development
| workflows are linux-only.
|
| The moment you add something "windows specific" to Linux you
| prevent it from actually being used because then you can't
| deploy it.
| babypuncher wrote:
| I really don't see how their Android app support or WSL could
| realistically go from extend to extinguish.
|
| I don't think Microsoft's MO is to completely dominate your
| entire stack anymore. They just want to make sure they form
| some critical piece of it so you can't get rid of them.
| jimmygrapes wrote:
| The most effective virus is not that which kills its host,
| but makes the host dependent upon the virus
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| If Microsoft extends their Android implementation to
| provide new features before Android itself does, and these
| features become popular, then all Microsoft would have to
| do is start putting out their own "Android" phones to begin
| eating the market.
|
| WSL, I'll admit, will be trickier to convert. However, they
| have decades of experience at this so don't put it past
| them to figure it out.
| criddell wrote:
| So you're saying it's only a matter of time before Windows,
| which is 35 years old, might become a walled garden?
| mattnewton wrote:
| I think they kinda tried with the windows store + arm
| windows surfaces. The market didn't like it.
| babypuncher wrote:
| I think this is really unlikely. PC gaming is an
| increasingly important market for Windows in the consumer
| space. As more casual users abandon conventional PCs for
| increasingly capable tablets and smartphones, PC gaming is
| only becoming and even bigger piece of the pie.
|
| The day Microsoft announces that the next version of
| Windows will be wholly incompatible with player's existing
| libraries is the day Windows ceases to be relevant to this
| market. Suddenly, Wine and Proton on Linux go from being
| "pretty good, but real Windows works better" to being the
| best option by a mile.
|
| And this is without mentioning how important legacy support
| is to enterprise customers. A whole lot of the jank and
| inconsistent UI designs present in Windows 11 is there
| because enterprise customers still use old software that
| relies on old features and APIs.
| jrm4 wrote:
| Ugh, this just came to me and I hate to put this deviltry
| in the air:
|
| But right now, kinda feels like Microsoft buys Steam or
| dies.
|
| (Maybe not dies, but "becomes IBM.")
| politician wrote:
| You underestimate the size of their enterprise business.
| iamstupidsimple wrote:
| Valve is a private company, I highly doubt Gabe Newell
| will ever sell.
| FractalParadigm wrote:
| How? They've recently bought a _ton_ of gaming IPs,
| including Bethesda and id, to add to their existing
| sizable portfolio including some big names like Halo,
| Forza, Flight Sim, Minecraft, Gears. They seem to have a
| pretty solid agreement with EA to offer their EA Play
| service as a part of GamePass Ultimate, allowing access
| to a sizeable portion of that library for no additional
| cost to PC and console gamers. They 're starting to push
| hard into Xbox-as-a-service and focusing efforts equally
| between PC and console, adding the xCloud "Game
| Everywhere On Everything!" hook.
|
| People seem to forget that Microsoft is the second most
| valuable tech company in the world behind Apple. Unless
| some incredible monstrous change or disaster happens
| to/within the company, they're not going anywhere for a
| _long_ time.
| unicornporn wrote:
| I find that the argument embedded in that question isn't
| very insightful.
|
| The developments of personal computing since subscription
| applications became prevalent and app stores were
| integrated into operating systems has made things quite
| different from the era that preceded this one.
|
| Apple used to sell OS upgrades. Today you can basically run
| Windows 10 for free. The revenue streams are different
| these days and they have plenty of incentives to turn your
| OS into a mall.
| criddell wrote:
| Windows has essentially always been free. There have been
| something like two billion PCs sold running Windows. The
| number of people who purchased a non-OEM copy is
| relatively small.
| treesknees wrote:
| But I believe upgrades have always been an extra purchase
| until Windows 8? Nowadays it's free OS, free upgrades to
| get you in the door and buy their services (M365 for
| Microsoft, iCloud/apps for Apple.)
| Kye wrote:
| I know at least Windows ME and Windows 98 SE came in
| boxes.
| drcode wrote:
| It is a walled garden since its inception. There is no
| package manager for building an open package ecosystem, as
| exists on other OSes.
| babypuncher wrote:
| I think that is a matter of perspective. Operating
| systems wholly reliant on package managers are arguably
| walled gardens, since acquiring and running software that
| only exists outside the official repos can be a hassle.
|
| But I don't think most people mean either of these things
| when they say "walled garden". They are referring to
| ecosystems where the user's only choice for installing
| apps is an app store owned and maintained by the OS
| vendor.
| TinkersW wrote:
| I'd say the OS, rather than a language, having a package
| manager is more of a walled garden..
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| No it isn't. You can still install and even build
| packages using the manifest separately. It is just
| convenience, but doesn't prevent you from installing them
| yourself.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Prevent, no. However making your promoted paradigm of
| software installation rely on repos and package
| maintainers has lead to practices that make it unlikely
| that you will find any given piece of software in a form
| you can just drop onto your system and have it run. If
| you're really lucky there's a static version or an
| AppImage, if you're unlucky you're pulling down a docker
| container of someone's build environment and compiling it
| yourself, if you're _really_ unlucky you have to do
| without the docker container.
| melony wrote:
| Where do you think PowerShell's OneGet comes from? It
| comes from embracing and extending AppGet.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23331287
| kjaftaedi wrote:
| You're thinking of WinGet.
|
| OneGet is an open source project run by an open source
| group at Microsoft and has been around since 2014. It's
| based on linux package managers.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Which is precisely what makes it _not_ a walled garden:
| you can just, you know, put whatever software you want on
| it. That 's the expected way to acquire software on
| Windows.
| jodrellblank wrote:
| How does "someone can install Linux in a VM on Windows"[1]
| translate into "ajvs won't be able to use Linux anymore"? I
| don't see how you can make such a claim with a straight face.
|
| [1] WSL is based on Hyper-V virtual machines.
| teddyfrozevelt wrote:
| They're already doing it with WSL specific features such as
| the DirectX driver.
|
| https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directx-heart-linux/
| Kye wrote:
| Am I misreading? It looks like they ported the DirectX
| runtime to Linux under GPL 2.
|
| >> _" This is the real and full D3D12 API, no imitations,
| pretender or reimplementation here... this is the real
| deal. libd3d12.so is compiled from the same source code
| as d3d12.dll on Windows but for a Linux target. It offers
| the same level of functionality and performance (minus
| virtualization overhead). The only exception is
| Present(). There is currently no presentation integration
| with WSL as WSL is a console only experience today. The
| D3D12 API can be used for offscreen rendering and
| compute, but there is no swapchain support to copy pixels
| directly to the screen (yet )."_
|
| https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-
| Kernel/tree/e445d061...
|
| https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-
| Kernel/blob/e445d061...
|
| >> _" SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0"_
|
| They're also working on supporting all the standard Linux
| equivalents according to your link. I don't see the third
| E here.
| pram wrote:
| I agree, it's a good-faith effort on Microsoft's part. I
| think people have a hard time believing they can operate
| in a non-adversarial way (which is understandable if you
| lived through the 90s lol)
| Nullabillity wrote:
| According to the blog post mentioned earlier[0]:
|
| 1. Their kernel implementation is effectively just a
| paravirtualized proxy to the Windows DX API. So it won't
| be useful for bare metal users.
|
| 2. Only the kernel driver is open source (and presumably
| that is only thanks to the GPL). The user-mode library is
| a proprietary component shipped with Windows. I assume
| this is also DRMed to only work on top of Hyper-V/WSL2,
| just like many of their VSCode extensions deliberately
| block usage with unbranded builds (see also: AARD
| code[1], this isn't exactly new for them).
|
| [0]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directx-
| heart-linux/
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code
| SahAssar wrote:
| The Windows Android layer can only install from the amazon
| store and does not include any google play stuff, right? Is the
| amazon android app ecosystem that much better than the current
| windows store?
| DeathArrow wrote:
| Probably yes. People don't like to use app stores unless they
| are forced.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| Or maybe I'd even say "people don't like to use terrible
| app stores unless forced". Unfortunately, all of the
| commercial ones I have used are really terrible (gPlay, the
| Apple App Store, the MS Store), though at least on
| everything but iOS you aren't 'forced' to use them per se,
| just aggressively encouraged. It's kind of mind-boggling to
| me that none of them have managed to make an acceptable
| example, how hard can search + suggest be? Even when they
| implement wishlist/bookmarking, it's clunky and
| frustrating.
| babypuncher wrote:
| I don't think Google Play or the Apple App Store are
| terrible, at least for end-users. They have the apps
| people want and function as advertised.
|
| The Microsoft Store struggled because initially it was
| limited to UWP apps. Developers could not easily ship
| their existing Windows software on it. Microsoft shot
| themselves in the foot by excluding the store from
| Windows' biggest selling point: it's extensive library of
| existing software.
|
| To make things worse, the store has always been a
| bit...buggy, compared to the contemporaries I mentioned
| earlier. I have, on more than one occasion, spent half an
| hour troubleshooting why a game wouldn't download and
| install, with the store throwing obtuse unhelpful errors.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| Hmm, I would say my experience with gPlay is that the
| signal-to-noise ratio is very high, often even when you
| specifically know what you're after, it can be hard to
| find the app you want and not an imitator. It also goes
| to great lengths to get promo/featured apps and games in
| front of you, no matter what. Also the filtering leaves a
| lot to be desired, for example there's no way to look for
| a game that has no advertising and no IAP, just a
| purchase price (the cynic in me assumes that's because of
| Google's priorities). The Apple App Store (I only deal
| with it on macOS) has fewer, better apps, but even less
| filtering/sorting, and maddeningly no kind of
| wishlist/bookmark, so I sometimes see something passing
| and mean to check it out, but then can't remember and
| never try again.
| [deleted]
| wvenable wrote:
| To answer your second question, very likely. Microsoft would
| have zero luck populating their own Android store from
| scratch. It's a win-win for both companies as they're playing
| second fiddle to the Google Play Store and maybe even the
| Samsung store. Attracting developers to submit apps requires
| a large market.
| SahAssar wrote:
| The question wasn't if it was better than a new, from-
| scratch store. It was if it was better than the current
| windows store.
| wvenable wrote:
| The Windows Store would always be from scratch for
| Android apps. This is just adding the apps from the
| Amazon store into the Windows Store.
| SahAssar wrote:
| What would be the reason to use android apps on windows
| besides them not being available on windows? What feature
| could an android app running on windows do that a windows
| application couldn't do?
| wvenable wrote:
| The only reason to run Android apps on Windows is because
| there aren't native Windows versions of these
| applications.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Ironically what google did with Android was the play that
| Microsoft should have done with windows phone - classic OEM
| play which they had done successfully for years before
|
| Windows CE was certainly an interesting platform. The problem
| was it tried to be some sort of ... hybrid. On one side it
| tried to have some semblance of being Windows (not just in
| terms of UI but also in terms of APIs), on the other side it
| was different enough to _not_ be Windows (weird CPU
| architectures such as Hitachi 's SuperH, for one). Not to
| mention unlike Apple's Xcode and Android Studio, developing for
| Windows CE required paying through the nose for Visual Studio
| and addons (or pirating them).
|
| And then, once the iPhone and Android hit the market, Microsoft
| just _stopped_ development or even trying to catch up... and
| when they entered the field again, they messed it up
| completely.
| RGamma wrote:
| Oh boy, soon I might be able play my favorite Android trash games
| [1] natively on the PC!
|
| [1]
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=JT79TVpF1ds&list=PLlc94szfcNDHtz...
| kyriakos wrote:
| > You can see notifications from Android apps notifications in
| the Action Center or share your clipboard between a Windows app
| and an Android app.
|
| This is a very interesting feature. Integrated notifications
| means you can run any android messenger and keep it minimised.
| criddell wrote:
| That sounds like it would be a pretty heavyweight solution to a
| lightweight problem.
| Maxburn wrote:
| You mean the windows part right? /s
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| In classic Microsoft scattershot leadership, the preview is only
| available to Beta channel members, but _not_ Dev channel members.
| Typically, new features would go Dev > Beta > RC > Final. This
| is going Beta > Dev > RC > release.
|
| Surprise - Dev channel members (who were there because they
| wanted Android apps as soon as possible) are pissed. It also
| doesn't help that Microsoft removed the ability to switch to the
| Beta channel from the Dev channel a few months ago without
| notice.
| fleaaaa wrote:
| Probably something being in conflict with WSA in dev channel is
| the problem atm. This is first time something is released on
| beta channel first afaik.
| sylens wrote:
| If this is the case, some communication about it would
| probably go a long way
| fleaaaa wrote:
| I'm pretty sure this isn't a sole issue in MS..
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| > Windows is the most open platform on the planet for creators.
|
| Gaslighting 101
| FileSorter wrote:
| That is an objectively true statement.
| Karunamon wrote:
| Only in a world without Linux distros. Something you have to
| pay money for, agree to a bunch of dubious legalese, and cede
| control over how your device operates is pretty much the
| opposite of "open".
| KoftaBob wrote:
| That's not what gaslighting is.
| kipchak wrote:
| I wonder if Bluestacks will stick around as an alternative or if
| this will be the beginning of the end for it.
| unnouinceput wrote:
| I gave up on Bluestacks years ago. Was too slow to start/load,
| had some graphic issues with some apps, overall a mediocre
| experience. Nowadays I use Memu, it's fast and way more
| flexible than Bluestacks ever was.
| symlinkk wrote:
| What do people use features like this for?
| remir wrote:
| In the article, they posted a screenshot where there's an
| Android game, a WIN32 app (word), a PWA app and a linux app in
| the same window.
|
| So I think Microsoft wants to position Windows 11 as the
| platform for all apps.
| PostThisTooFast wrote:
| Windows 11 isn't even a tolerable platform for its own apps.
|
| Microsoft should spend more time cleanup up the grotesquely
| inept and defective experience that is today's Windows.
| unicornporn wrote:
| Was just about to ask the same question. I can't come up with a
| single Android app I'd like to run on desktop. Is it just an
| app development thing?
| kingcharles wrote:
| There's a growing number of mobile apps that don't expose all
| their features through their web apps, e.g. Cash, Venmo,
| TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat etc.
|
| It's a total pain for me to have to always open my phone and
| use the tiny keyboard to carry out some trivial task.
| KoftaBob wrote:
| All the streaming services that allow you to download/save
| shows/movies for offline viewing, only offer that feature on
| their apps.
| keithnz wrote:
| It's probably more interesting on things like Microsoft
| surface. Not sure Microsoft have the stomach for it yet, but
| they possibly could have another crack at doing phones.
| cturtle wrote:
| Maybe Venmo since there is no desktop/web client. It
| frustrates me that Venmo has become so popular in my circles
| when it's smartphone-only. I have a smartphone so I'll keep
| using it there, but I could imagine some might appreciate the
| option to run apps like Venmo on a PC.
| lostgame wrote:
| Instagram and Snapchat want to say hi.
|
| Even stuff like TextPlus that lacks desktop clients. I can
| think of _quite a few_ apps I 'd immediately grab.
| open-paren wrote:
| I have a suspicion that they went with the Amazon App Store
| because it removes the dependency on Google Play Services. Is
| that just me?
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| I would say Microsoft needed an Android store and Amazon wanted
| another large customer base for theirs. I bet Google had no
| interest in obliging for either of them
| Mindwipe wrote:
| And Amazon has a lot of versions of popular apps with their
| requirements for Google Play Services patched out as it
| doesn't appear on FireOS (without a bunch of work by the
| user).
| babypuncher wrote:
| Google would never have wanted to put the Play Store on Windows
| because they actually compete with Windows. Access to the Play
| Store is a selling point of ChromeOS.
| n8cpdx wrote:
| That's certainly part of the advantage, but I always wonder
| about the geography here. Amazon and Microsoft are both
| headquartered in Seattle (technically Redmond for MS, but it's
| only a short drive). I imagine there's a lot of cross
| pollination going on. They've also made noises in the past
| about integrating Alexa and Cortana, and it's quite easy to
| turn a PC into an always-on Alexa device. Everything that makes
| sense about the Amazon collaboration would make more sense if
| it was a Google-Microsoft collaboration, except the geography
| and cross-pollination aspects. Surface Duo has play services
| and no one bats an eye.
|
| That's just my unfalsifiable hypothesis, and I'd like to hear
| other takes.
| nikanj wrote:
| "Mobile games: Play some of the most popular mobile games like
| Lords Mobile, June's Journey, Coin Master, and more."
|
| I'm reasonably certain those are not the most popular mobile
| games right now.
| [deleted]
| marcodiego wrote:
| Now that they have WSL2 it would be much better to just
| contribute to waydroid:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28616985
| nsonha wrote:
| what does WSL 2 have anything to do with it? Most people
| wouldn't run waydroid on wsl, that's 2 levers of abstraction.
| doublerebel wrote:
| Requires use of Hyper-V... does this mean they will bring Hyper-V
| to Home edition? Seems like many users who would run Android apps
| are likely to crossover with the group of users who are not going
| to upgrade their Windows license to Pro or better.
|
| _Windows Subsystem for Android(tm)... runs in a Hyper-V Virtual
| Machine, like the Windows Subsystem for Linux._
| madeofpalk wrote:
| WSL, with Hyper-V, is available in Windows Home.
|
| > The newest version of WSL uses Hyper-V architecture to enable
| its virtualization. This architecture will be available in the
| 'Virtual Machine Platform' optional component. This optional
| component will be available on all SKUs. You can expect to see
| more details about this experience soon as we get closer to the
| WSL 2 release.
|
| https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/faq
| xeromal wrote:
| Interestingly, I don't see an entry for it in hyper-v
| zamadatix wrote:
| This and WSL use "Virtual Machine Platform" which is a bit
| like WebView2 but for virtualization.
| vadfa wrote:
| They can bring Hyper-V to Home and only let you use it to run
| Android apps.
| criddell wrote:
| I think Microsoft cares more about Android than Google does. They
| should work out a deal where Microsoft takes over Android.
| treesknees wrote:
| What about this makes you think that? Microsoft cares about
| getting Android _users_, I don't think they care that much
| about the Android OS beyond their rather poor implementation on
| the Surface Duo.
| criddell wrote:
| Microsoft at least appears to be interested in Android. To me
| it feels like Google has lost interest in the product.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| MS can do their own Android. And it wouldn't even be a terribly
| stupid ideea. They already sell laptops, so why not phones?
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Microsoft already sells an Android "phone"
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-duo
| wyldfire wrote:
| > To enable these types of experiences, we are introducing a new
| component on top of Windows 11 called Windows Subsystem for
| Android(tm), which powers the Amazon Appstore and its catalog.
| The Subsystem includes the Linux kernel and the Android OS based
| on the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) version 11.
|
| > The Windows Subsystem for Android is available across the full
| spectrum of Windows processor types (AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm).
|
| So, on your Windows-ARM laptop, you can run android apps now.
| Being able to run android apps was one appealing feature of
| chromebooks IMO.
|
| > We are partnering with Amazon in engaging the developer
| community, and we will have more details to share about early
| developer programs to publish Android apps to the Amazon Appstore
|
| I had assumed that the Amazon App store had withered on the vine,
| but I guess their Kindles have kept it alive.
| kyriakos wrote:
| This partnership is a win win between Microsoft and Amazon.
| Users should be able to install fdroid too
| lostmsu wrote:
| If you can install fdroid, that would be great!
| Maxburn wrote:
| I got the impression developers shunned Amazon app store
| because it's a bad experience for them. Quite often am I
| seeing apps there that are many versions behind the play
| store.
| babypuncher wrote:
| I always assumed it was just because nobody uses the Amazon
| app store.
|
| From a consumer perspective, the Amazon app store has no
| real reason to exist. It's just another place to download
| the same apps that are already in the Play Store, only with
| the extra hassle of needing to sideload it and set up a
| separate account from the one you already use for most
| other things on your phone.
|
| If Amazon is actively making the app submission process
| worse for developers, then that is a colossal failure on
| Amazon's part to understand their market position.
| Developers are not the ones who need Amazon in this
| relationship.
| neogodless wrote:
| > The Windows Subsystem for Android is available across the
| full spectrum of Windows processor types (AMD, Intel, and
| Qualcomm).
|
| But scroll down to see "Feature-specific requirements for
| Windows 11"
|
| > Apps available at Amazon Appstore. Additional requirements
| apply, including 8 GB of RAM, a solid-state drive (SSD), and a
| supported processor (Intel(r) Core(tm) i3 8th Generation, AMD
| Ryzen(tm) 3000, Qualcomm(r) Snapdragon(tm) 8c, or above).
|
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica...
|
| Overall, that's much higher requirements than you'd find for
| WSL or Bluestacks. I wonder why they've set the bar so high!
| sz4kerto wrote:
| Those are just normal Windows 11 requirements, related to TPM
| and other hardware features.
| neogodless wrote:
| Scroll down.
|
| > Windows Subsystem for Android(tm)
|
| You can install Windows 11 on lower requirements. But you
| might not be able to run Android apps.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Has anyone tried sideloading android apps yet? I assume you'd
| need MicroG for anything Google dependent.
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| I saw a tweet go by that ADB is packaged in, so it should be
| possible to sideload
| fleaaaa wrote:
| It is indeed possible, I tried a few and it indeed works but
| pretty unstable so far.
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(page generated 2021-10-20 23:00 UTC)