[HN Gopher] Apple M1 Max Geekbench Score ___________________________________________________________________ Apple M1 Max Geekbench Score Author : mv9 Score : 270 points Date : 2021-10-20 17:50 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (browser.geekbench.com) (TXT) w3m dump (browser.geekbench.com) | diebeforei485 wrote: | I'm in the situation where I really want to pre-order a 14", but | I have no idea if going with the base model would be a mistake. | | Would upgrading to 32GB RAM make Xcode faster? Or would it be a | waste of $400? | nunez wrote: | hard to tell given that m1's address and page memory completely | differently from how x86 does it. My 8GB M1 MacBook Air | performs extremely well even when memory pressure is high...and | it never seems to hit swap space. | | Anecdotal example: I could have several Firefox tabs with | active workers in the background (WhatsApp, Slack, etc.), a | Zoom meeting with video conferencing on, with audio and video | being routed via OBS (native), a Screen Sharing session over | SSH going, and a Kubernetes cluster in Docker running, and that | won't even make the MacBook hot. Nothing slows down. I could | get maybe five hours out of the battery this way. Usually six. | | Doing that on a maxed out Intel MacBook Pro will make it sound | like a jet engine and reduce my battery life to two or three | hours. It will also slow to a crawl. | | I'm guessing buying a machine with 32GB of RAM is an investment | into the future where workloads on m1 machines are high enough | to actually give the memory a run for its money. | thebean11 wrote: | 16GB of RAM seems so low in 2021. OTOH, hard drives are so fast | on these things that maybe 16 is good enough with the SSD as | overflow. | | I ended up shelling out the extra $400 for 32GB, but didn't | feel great about it! | bluedays wrote: | On the other hand I've been running 16GB of ram for a while | and I can't conceive of a reason why I would need more. 32GB | seems like overkill. What would you do with all of that ram? | Open more tabs? | t-writescode wrote: | Compilation, graphics work, heavy-weight IDEs | | And, if you're spinning on 16GB ram on an M1, you might be | eating through the SSD powering your swap space and not | know it. | EugeneOZ wrote: | indeed. From my experience, I see that my MBA uses swap | sometimes, but I can't notice it. Still, I want to avoid | it. | thebean11 wrote: | Looking at activity monitor, I'm currently using ~19GB, | doing nothing special (IntelliJ, 15 chrome tabs, Spotify, | Slack). Docker Desktop was using 8GB before I killed it. | And this is on an Intel Mac so it doesn't include GPU | memory usage I believe, which is shared in M1 Macs. | | This likely isn't a perfect metric, if I were closer to the | limit I think MacOS would get more aggressive about | compression and offloading stuff to disk but still. | Tagbert wrote: | Browsers generally allocate RAM with abandon but any one | process is not necessarily memory bound. It just means | that they are using that as page cache. | josephpmay wrote: | I've heard from people with M1 laptops that they perform | surprisingly better than Intel laptops with less RAM (on the | Mac). I imagine the same will hold with the Pro and Max, | although it will depend a lot on what type of work you're | doing. | EugeneOZ wrote: | I have m1 air with 8Gb and I see that had to take 16Gb at | least. Not sure about 32GB, but 16 is the minimum. Profile: | JS, TS, Rust, sometimes Java. | johnboiles wrote: | I am one of those people. I bought an 8gb M1 Air last month | for a project (while I waited for the new models to be | released). It baffles me how well this little computer | performs with less RAM than I've had in a computer since | 2009. I'd love an explanation of how that works. Maybe the | SSD is so fast that swapping isn't a big deal? | runako wrote: | I looked into this angle recently. The SSDs in the new | MBPs are roughly 3x as fast as the one in my 2015 MBP | (7.4GB/s vs 2GB/s). To contextualize, the new MBPs have | roughly half as much SSD bandwidth as my MBP does memory | bandwidth. | | Which is to say the SSD is much closer to being as fast | as RAM, which would explain why is subjectively can make | better use of less memory. | johnboiles wrote: | Neat! | azinman2 wrote: | Unlikely to make Xcode any faster. Just look at your ram usage | now and then forecast a bit to know. | pbowyer wrote: | Same situation as you, looking at 14". Need to see what the | Xcode benchmarks are like for the variety of M1 Pro processors | on offer, to see if any upgrades from the base model are | worthwhile. | | If I was sticking with 16GB RAM I think I'd get a M1 Air | instead. The smaller screen is the downside, but 300g lighter | and substantially cheaper are good points. | rvanmil wrote: | I'm upgrading from an M1 Air (16GB) to a 14" Pro base model | just for the display. Extra M1 pro performance is bonus but | the M1 has already been amazing for development work past | year. | pbowyer wrote: | Is it the resolution you've found limiting on the M1 Air? | My eyesight is slowly getting worse so I'm assuming I'll | have to run both at 200%. Which makes the Air a 1280x800 | screen - something I last had on my 2009 13" MBP! | hajile wrote: | M1 only allows one external monitor (you can run 2 with | some docks if you turn off the laptop screen). This isn't | such a problem for me as I have an ultra-wide, but lots | of people with dual/triple monitor setups haven't been | super thrilled. | rvanmil wrote: | I'm lucky enough to still have good eyesight so it's not | limiting for me personally. Most of the time when working | I've got it hooked up to a big 4K display though. My | expectation is I'll appreciate the new XDR display for | the times I'm not on an external monitor. | kstrauser wrote: | My opinion: the jump from 16GB to 32GB probably won't make a | huge difference today, especially if your workload is already | running alright in 16GB. I think it'll greatly extend the | useful life of the laptop, though. For example, I wouldn't want | to be using an 8GB laptop today. | [deleted] | hajile wrote: | When I start up kubernetes, my usage for that alone goes up | to 6+GB. Swapping to SSD is terrible for it's lifecycle. 32GB | should have you going for quite a while unless you need/want | lots of vRAM in which case I'd go with 64GB. | danieldk wrote: | I wouldn't go for the base model, since it has 6 performance | cores, rather than 8. | rgbrenner wrote: | Ram is ram. Don't fall for marketing hype and think M1 means | you need less ram. If you think you need it, you still need it | on M1... and I say that as someone who owns an M1 Mac. | EricE wrote: | Yes - I wish people would stop implying that the M1 magically | doubles RAM and other such nonsense. I found the same. I have | a game that requires at least 32GB (Cities:Skylines - mainly | because of my self inflicted steam workshop asset addiction) | and ended up returning the Air to wait for the next round. | Decided to go all out - have a 16" 64GB M1 Max with 2TB of | storage on the way. | marcodiego wrote: | Consider that you always can download more ram: | https://downloadmoreram.com/ | | /s | busymom0 wrote: | Depends upon your workflow but I use xcode and android studio | and 16gb isn't enough if I run a simulator or emulator. | Definitely get the 32gb imo. | [deleted] | wolrah wrote: | RAM is something where you either have enough or you don't. | When you have enough, adding more doesn't really get you | anything. When you don't have enough, performance tanks. | | The integrated nature of the M1 Macs gives them a much better | ability to predictively swap unused content to SSD and make the | most of the available RAM when things get tight while | multitasking, but if you have a single task that needs 17GB and | you have 16GB it's going to suffer a lot compared to if you had | 32GB. | | I wish Apple (and everyone else) would give up on the ultra- | thin crap and make a real Pro machine that returns to | upgradability at the cost of a few extra millimeters, but for | now since you're stuck with what you start with I'd recommend | always going at least one level above what you think you might | ever need during its expected useful life. | stocknoob wrote: | Figure out your hourly wage, how many hours a day you use your | laptop, and whether $400 amortized over the life of the device | is worth the "risk". | robertwt7 wrote: | Is that supposed to be fast guys? | | Isn't that still slower than some ryzen 5 5600x? (my pc uses this | but below is not my benchmark) | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/8238216 | | I'm not sure how fast or good is that number.. But i've heard | good things about m1 and planning to probably upgrade. | mciancia wrote: | > Base Frequency 4.72 GHz | | > Maximum Frequency 6.03 GHz | | This was seriously overclocked, wouldn't be surprised if with | liquid nitrogen. So probably poor comparison to laptop CPU ;) | jjcon wrote: | We're also seeing slower m1max benchmarks though | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10476727 | robertwt7 wrote: | Ah yes that's true, didn't realise it was overclocked. | | Probably good to compare to those ryzen in laptop.. | maxpert wrote: | Site not loading for me :( | e0m wrote: | Wow does much better than Geekbench's prior top processor | (https://browser.geekbench.com/processor-benchmarks) the Intel | Core i9-11900K (https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/intel- | core-i9-11900...). | | 10,997 for Intel i9 | | vs | | 12,693 for M1 Max | systemvoltage wrote: | Per core performance is the most interesting metric. | | Edit: _for relative_ comparison between CPUs, per core metric | is the most interesting unless you also account for heat, price | and many other factors. Comparing a 56-core CPU with 10-core M1 | is a meaningless comparison. | 5faulker wrote: | Just when you think things hit the top, another kid's out of | the town. | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | Not when building large software projects. | gchokov wrote: | Like... everyone builds large projects all the time? | akmarinov wrote: | If you don't then you don't really need the top end do | you? | ajuc wrote: | Most people who buy fast cars don't need them and it's | the same with computers. | YetAnotherNick wrote: | By that logic you could build an array of mac mini if you | don't care about price/heat. | semicolon_storm wrote: | What compiler could even make use of 10 cores? Most build | processes I've run can't even fully utilize the 4 cores. | pornel wrote: | Rust (Cargo) does, and always wants more. | destitude wrote: | Xcode has no issues taking advantage of all cores. | ukd1 wrote: | Just running the tests in our Rails project (11k of them) | can stress out a ton; we're regularly running it on 80+ | cores to keep our test completion time ~3 minutes. M1 Max | should let me run all tests locally much faster than I | can today. | andy_ppp wrote: | Wow, what is the system doing to have 11000 tests? | throwawaywindev wrote: | C++ compilers probably will. | spacedcowboy wrote: | I can stress out a 32+32 core 2990WX with 'make -j' on | some of my projects, htop essentially has every core | pegged. | jlmorton wrote: | Often a single compiler won't make use of more than a | core, but it's generally easy to build independent | modules in parallel. | | For example, make -j 10, or mvn -T 10. | [deleted] | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | Compilers typically don't use multiple cores, but the | build system that invokes them do, by invoking them in | parallel. Modern build systems will typically invoke | commands for 1 target per core, which means that on my | system for example, building my software uses all 16 | cores more or less until the final steps of the process. | | The speed record for building my software is held by a | system with over 1k cores (a couple of seconds, compared | to multiple minutes on a mid-size Threadripper). | ur-whale wrote: | > Not when building large software projects. | | Or run heavy renders of complex ray-traced scenes. | | Or do heavy 3D reconstruction from 2D images. | | Or run Monte-Carlo simulations to compute complex | likelihoods on parametric trading models. | | Or train ML models. | | The list of things you can do with a computer with many, | many cores is long, and some of these (or parts thereof) | are sometimes rather annoying to map to a GPU. | Someone wrote: | It seems Apple thinks it _can_ map the essential ones to | the GPU, though. If they didn't, there would be more CPUs | and less powerful other hardware. | | 'Rather annoying' certainly doesn't have to be a problem. | Apple can afford to pay engineers lots of money to write | libraries that do that for you. | | The only problem I see is that Apple might (and likely | will) disagree with some of their potential customers | about what functionality is essential. | concinds wrote: | I wish there were laptop-specific Geekbench rankings because | right now it seems impossible to easily compare devices in the | same class | wmf wrote: | The M1 Pro/Max are effectively H-class chips so you can | search for 11800H, 11950H, 5800H, 5900HX, etc. | zsmi wrote: | Your comment got me wondering if there was actually a | method to Intel's naming madness, and it turns out there | is! | | https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/processo | r... | | 11800H = Core i7-11800H -> family=i7 generation=11 sku=800 | H=optimized for mobile | | 11950H = Core i9-11950H -> family=i9 generation=11 sku=950 | H=optimized for mobile | | I didn't look up the AMD names. | | So, now that I know the names, why not use Core i9-11980HK? | | family=i7 generation=11 sku=800 HK=high performance | optimized for mobile | | It seems like it exists | https://www.techspot.com/review/2289-intel-core-i9-11980hk/ | | P.S. General rant: WTF Intel. I'm really glad there is a | decoder ring but does it really have to be that hard? Is | there really a need for 14 suffixes? For example, option T, | power-optimized lifestyle. Is it really different from | option U, mobile power efficient? | alpha64 wrote: | You sorted by single core performance, then compared multi core | performance. Sort by multi core performance, and you will see | that the i9-11900K is nowhere near the top spot. | | For example, the Ryzen 9 5950X has single/multi core scores of | 1,688/16,645 - which is higher in multi core score than the M1 | Max, but lower in the single core. | 28933663 wrote: | Perhaps they were referencing the highest 8C chip. Certainly, | a 5950X is faster, but it also has double the number of cores | (counting only performance on the M1; I don't know if the 2 | efficiency cores do anything on the multi-core benchmark). | Not to mention the power consumption differences - one is in | a laptop and the other is a desktop CPU. | | Looking at a 1783/12693 on an 8-core CPU shows about a 10% | scaling penalty from 1 to 8 cores - suppose a 32-core M1 came | out for the Mac Pro that could scale only at 50% per core, | that would still score over 28000, compared to the real-world | top scorer, the 64-core 3990X scoring 25271. | eMSF wrote: | M1 Max has 10 cores. | andy_ppp wrote: | But the two efficiency cores are less than half a main | core thought right? | hajile wrote: | 1/3 the performance, but 1/10 the power. Not adding more | was a mistake IMO. Maybe next time... | andy_ppp wrote: | Really? I mean if it gets me 10-14h coding on a single | charge that's awesome... | hajile wrote: | The A15 efficiency cores will be in the next model. They | are A76-level performance (flagship-level for Android | from 2019-2020), but use only a tiny bit more power than | the current efficiency cores. | | At that point, their E-cores will have something like 80% | the performance of a Zen 1 core. Zen 1 might not be the | new hotness, but lots of people are perfectly fine with | their Threadripper 1950X which Apple could almost match | with 16 E-cores and only around 8 watts of peak power. | | I suspect we'll see Apple joining ARM in three-tiered | CPUs shortly. Adding a couple in-order cores just for | tiny system processes that wake periodically, but don't | actually do much just makes a ton of sense. | thenthenthen wrote: | Stil 8 more than my desktop pc :p | [deleted] | lostmsu wrote: | Which is still not that much higher. Of the "consumer" CPUs | only 5900X and 5950X score higher. And their stress power | draw is about 2X of speculated M1 Max's. | tedunangst wrote: | That's maybe not a bad way to sort? Most of the time I'm | interacting with a computer I'm waiting for some single | thread to respond, so I want to maximize that, then look over | a column to see if it will be adequate for bulk compute tasks | as well. | GeekyBear wrote: | Interestingly, the iPhone's A15 SOC did get a newer version | of Apple's big core this year. | | >On an adjacent note, with a score of 7.28 in the integer | suite, Apple's A15 P-core is on equal footing with AMD's | Zen3-based Ryzen 5950X with a score of 7.29, and ahead of M1 | with a score of 6.66. | | https://www.anandtech.com/show/16983/the-apple-a15-soc- | perfo... | | On floating point, it's slightly ahead. 10.15 for the A15 vs. | 9.79 for the 5950X. | DeathArrow wrote: | What about this? https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/7421821 | andy_ppp wrote: | That's a strangely shaped laptop, what is the battery like on | it? | mcphage wrote: | It's actually compatible with a tremendous range of third | party external batteries like so: | https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004918MO2 | | And forget about fast charging--you can charge this battery | up from 0% to 100% in less than a minute just by pouring | some gasoline in the thing! | | It's the very pinnacle of portability! | erk__ wrote: | I really wonder how a single z/Architecture core would fare on | this benchmark, though I imagine it's never been ported | LASR wrote: | Probably not as good as you might expect. Z machines are | built for enterprise features like RAS, and performance on | specific workloads. | | The ultra-high-clocked IBM cpus are probably significantly | faster at DB loads, and less than the best at more general | benchmarks like Geekbench. | mrtksn wrote: | The single core is second to Intel's best but the multicore is | well below in the scale, comparable to Intel Xeon W-2191B or | Intel Core i9-10920X, which are 18 and 12 core beasts with TDP | of up to 165W. | | Which means, at least for Geekbench, Apple M1 Max has a power | comparable to a very powerful desktop workstation. But if you | need the absolute best of the best on multicore you can get | double the performance with AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3990X at | 280W TDP! | | Can you imagine if Apple released some beast with similar TDP? | 300W Apple M1 Unleashed, the trashcan design re-imagined, with | 10X power of M1 Max if can preserve similar performance per | watt. That would be 5X over the best of the best. | | If Apple made an iMac Pro with similar TDP to the Intel one, | and keeps the performance per watt, that would mean multicore | score of about 60K, which is twice of the best processor there | is in the X86 World. | | I suspect, these scores don't tell the full story since the | Apple SoC has specialised units for processing certain kind of | data and they have direct access to the data in the memory and | as a result it could be unmatched by anything but at the same | time it can be comically slow for some other type of processes | where X86 shines. | moreira wrote: | Interestingly, the M1 Max is only a 10 core (of which only 8 | are high performance). I wonder what it will look like when | it's a 20-core, or even a 64-core like the Threadripper. | Imagine a 64-core M1 on an iMac or Mac Pro. | | We're in for some fun times. | spacedcowboy wrote: | John Siracusa - no the chart isn't real, but maybe qualify | that with "yet"... | | https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/1450202454067400711 | kzrdude wrote: | Hm, related to that reply https://twitter.com/lukeburrage | /status/1450216654202343425 | | Is this a yield trick, that one is the "chopped" part of | another? So they'll bin failed M1Max ones as M1Pro, if | possible? | GeekyBear wrote: | Bloomberg's Gurman certainly has shown that he has reliable | sources inside Apple over the years. | | >Codenamed Jade 2C-Die and Jade 4C-Die, a redesigned Mac | Pro is planned to come in 20 or 40 computing core | variations, made up of 16 high-performance or 32 high- | performance cores and four or eight high-efficiency cores. | The chips would also include either 64 core or 128 core | options for graphics. | | https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/18/bloomberg-mac- | pro-32-hi... | | So right in line with the notion of the Mac Pro getting an | SOC that has the resources of either 2 or 4 M1 Pros glued | together. | sudhirj wrote: | John Siracusa had a diagram linked here that shows the die | for M1 Max, and says the ultimate desktop version is | basically 4 M1 Max packages. If true, that's a 40 core CPU | 128 core GPU beast, and then we can compare to the desktop | 280W Ryzens. | lvl100 wrote: | I was dead set on getting a new Mac but I think I will opt for | Alder Lake. It appears Apple Silicon for desktop will be pretty | much constrained to mobile designs and limitations. Perhaps I | will revisit if they decide to release M1 Max inside a Mac Mini | but I highly doubt that will happen. | jccalhoun wrote: | Is geekbench seen as a valid score? It seems that on the pc | hardware sites and youtube channels I frequent that they don't | seem to mention it. The only time I seem to see it is for mac | stuff. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Not really. It's nice to run the same benchmark on all | platforms but most hardware sites run a game demo that's easily | repeatable and take an fps reading or run Cinebench which | renders a scene. | LeoPanthera wrote: | It is one of the few cross-platform benchmarks that can be run | on both PCs and Macs, as well as iOS, Android, and Linux. | parhamn wrote: | Anyone know how this compares to the M1 Pro? Curious if it's | worth the additional $400. The search doesn't seem to allow exact | matches. | SegOnMyFault wrote: | Should be the same as the difference between the max and the | pro lies in the GPU core count. | ivalm wrote: | Memory bandwidth as well. | meepmorp wrote: | No, the Max has twice the memory bandwidth as well - 200GB/s | vs 400 GB/s, which will have a big impact on anything memory | bound. | danieldk wrote: | We have to see how much it matters in practice, since the | M1 Max has roughly the same single threaded score as the | M1. | InvaderFizz wrote: | How much and on what is the question. I'm not in the market | for a laptop, so I can wait and see. | | That said, if Apple releases a MacMini M1 Max, I'll | probably buy it. | meepmorp wrote: | Yeah, I would've already ordered a MaxMini if it existed. | Maybe next year. | czbond wrote: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10479712 | neogodless wrote: | Overall only 5-15% increase. | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10496766?baseli. | .. | metahost wrote: | This is the comparison to a mid 2015 15" MacBook Pro for anyone | who is curios: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10513492?baseli... | | Summary: single core performance gain is 2x whereas multi-core | performance gain is 4x. | neogodless wrote: | Ha I couldn't stand the order that was, so here's the reverse: | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10496766?baseli... | | 3.1% increase in single core, and 69.4% increase in multi-core. | karmelapple wrote: | Sorry, I think you meant to reply to this post with it: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28935095 | hazeii wrote: | Over 6 years, 2x the performance in single-core and 4x (for | 2.5x the cores, depending how you count) seems surprisingly low | compared to stuff I've read (not experienced yet) with the M1. | klelatti wrote: | Well the 2019 16 inch i9 MacBook Pro scores are 1088 and 6821 | so you can see the massive uplift over just two years. | r00fus wrote: | The vast majority of that 6 years is very gradual or minimal | improvements. Then M1. | jermaustin1 wrote: | I think a lot of the perceivable speedup in M1 Macs is less | to do with these benchmarks and more to do with optimizing | the OS and Apple software for the M1 and the various | accelerators on the SoC (video encoding and ML). | klelatti wrote: | Don't really understand this argument - Apple has had 13 | years to optimise Mac OS for Intel and only a couple of | years for M1 / can't see how a video encoding accelerator | affects responsiveness. | mhh__ wrote: | Also remember that a lot of apple customers stick with | absolutely ancient laptops and are then amazed when a | modern one is much faster e.g. I had to explain what an | NVME drive is to someone who is a great developer but just | not a hardware guy. | larrik wrote: | I think you are on the right track, but I think the | performance gain really comes from the RAM being on the | chip itself, which raw number crunching won't make use (but | actual usage will make great use of) | destitude wrote: | I've used both M1 Macbook Air for work and 2019 16" with | 32GB of RAM and the M1 Macbook Air feels as fast if not | faster then the 16".. | giantrobot wrote: | My M1 MBA is measurably faster than the i9 MBP it replaced | in several purely software tasks. At the very least it | performs _on par_ with the i9. | | There's plenty of ARM-specific optimization in macOS that | gives boosts to M1s over Intel but the chips are just | faster for many tasks than Intel. | spfzero wrote: | Since Apple has been relying on Intel processors for many | years now, I'd bet they've spent more time optimizing | MacOS for Intel at this point. On the other hand, iOS has | given them a quick way to transfer optimization | knowledge. | boopmaster wrote: | This is the first bench I believe might be real. i saw 11542 | multi core spammed across news sites a couple days back, but it | didn't align with a 1.7x boost to performance (which this result | actually does). The single core was 1749 which also didn't make | sense as I'd imagine there's maybe a tiny bit more TDP per core | in the MBP 14 and 16 than the OG 13" M1 mbp. That and it was on | macOS v 12.4... which is maybe nonexistent and thus fake? This | score here is believable and incredible. | icosahedron wrote: | I'm not exactly proficient with GeekBenchery, but what I see here | is that the M1 Max per core barely outperforms the M1? | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10496766?baseli... | GeekyBear wrote: | Tick - New cores; Tock - Scaling up the number of those same | cores | | I think most of the work went into the uncore portions of the | SOC this time. | sydthrowaway wrote: | uncore? | als0 wrote: | Parts of the SoC that are not the main CPUs e.g. power | management controllers, display controllers, etc. | als0 wrote: | FYI it's the reverse. "Tock" is a new microarchitecture, and | "tick" is a process shrink. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tick-tock_model | hbOY5ENiZloUfnZ wrote: | The larger part of the upgrade comes from the GPU rather than | the CPU. | bichiliad wrote: | I think this kinda makes sense to me -- the M1 Max has the same | cores as the M1, just more of them and more of the performant | ones, if I understand it right. The fastest work on the fastest | core, when only working on a single core, is probably very | similar. | klelatti wrote: | Maybe a little surprised - presumably the thermal limitations | on a 16 inch laptop are potentially less limiting than on a | 13 inch one so that single core could be pushed to a higher | frequency? | tedunangst wrote: | For how long? Longer than it takes to run the benchmark? | floatingatoll wrote: | Does the core speed of an M1 core change at all? I thought | they used the low/high power cores at fixed-limit clock | speeds. | | It sounds crazy to consider, but maybe they'd rather not | try to speed up the individual cores in M1 Max, so that | they can keep their overhead competitively low. That | certainly would simplify manufacturing and QA; removing an | entire vector (clock speed) from the binning process makes | pipelines and platforms easier to maintain. | hajile wrote: | M1 uses TSMC high-density rather than high-performance. | They get 40-60% better transistor density and less leakage | (power consumption) at the expense of lower clockspeeds. | | Also, a core is not necessarily just limited by power. | There are often other considerations like pipeline length | that affect final target clocks. | | The fact is that at 3.2GHz, the M1 is very close to a 5800X | in single-core performance. When that 5800X cranks up 8 | cores, it dramatically slows down the clocks. Meanwhile the | M1 should keep its max clockspeeds without any issue. | | We know this because you can keep the 8 core M1 at max | clocks for TEN MINUTES on passive cooling in the Macbook | air (you can keep max clocks indefinitely if you apply a | little thermal pad on the inside of the case). | klelatti wrote: | Thanks - some very good points. Presumably this opens the | possibility of higher single core performance on a future | desktop design unless limited by pipeline length etc? | icosahedron wrote: | I thought I remembered that in the presentation they had | souped up the individual cores too. Must be I'm | misremembering. | sliken wrote: | They didn't. However the cores enjoy more main memory | bandwidth. | andy_ppp wrote: | The A15 chips has core improvements, I suspect this is what | we'll see every year from now on 15-20% performance increase | yearly for the next few years assuming no issues with TSMC... | jmartrican wrote: | Anyone know the score for Intel 12th gen Alder Lake? | mhh__ wrote: | I can't check for you due to hug but the 12900K was clocking in | at about 1900 ST IIRC | | Edit: Leaving this up so I can be corrected, don't think I have | the right figure. | gigatexal wrote: | If true I'd be interested to see what that is in points per | watt. | mhh__ wrote: | The points per watt is probably going to be crap but | equally I don't care all that much. | | One thing as well is that there are always headlines | complaining about power usage, but the figures are nearly | always from _extreme_ stress tests which basically fully | saturate the execution units. | | Geekbench is slightly different to those stresses so not | sure. | gigatexal wrote: | Sure but I'm only asking for Points per watt to use as a | baseline for testing Apple's claims. | mhh__ wrote: | Peak wattage is apparently 330W on a super heavy test, | not really sure how to extrapolate that to geekbench. | jeffbee wrote: | Wow, there's a power virus for Alder Lake _client_ that | can make it draw 330W? Reference? | gigatexal wrote: | Bitcoin? ;) | marricks wrote: | 1834 ST / 17370 MT [1] | | But that's also for something which has a TDP of 125W [2], | unsure if that's the right number for a mobile chip? Also no | clue what M1 Max's TDP is either. | | [1] https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/9510991 | | [2] https://cpu-benchmark.org/cpu/intel-core-i9-12900k/ | runeks wrote: | The Intel CPU is pretty underwhelming. It has twice the | number of high performance cores (16 vs 8) but is only 37% | faster for multi-core tasks. | colinmhayes wrote: | I guess that's what happens when Apple's process is a | generation ahead of Intel's. | ribit wrote: | M1 Max TDP will be around 30-40 watt for the CPU cluster and | 50-60 watt for the GPU cluster. Note that unlike x86 CPUs | (which can draw far more than their TDP for brief periods of | time), this is maximal power usage of the chip. | | M1 needs about 5W to reach those signs-core scores, Tiger | Lake needs 20W | websap wrote: | Looks like Geekbench just got the HN bug of death. | tambourine_man wrote: | Site is under heavy load: | | 1783 Single-Core Score | | 12693 Multi-Core Score | YetAnotherNick wrote: | For comparison, M1 results: | | 1705 Single core, 7382 multi core | M4R5H4LL wrote: | For comparison, Mac Pro (Late 2019) 16-core: 1104 Single-Core | Score, 15078 Multi-Core Score | starfallg wrote: | Pretty underwhelming from a pure performance standpoint after all | the hype from the launch. | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/singlecore | petersellers wrote: | Pretty impressive, all things considered. Looks like it's roughly | on par with an AMD 5800X, which is a Desktop CPU with 8C/16T and | a 105W TDP. | [deleted] | mhh__ wrote: | Impressive but unbelievably expensive considering what will | actually be run on it. | | I kind of want one, but the 5800x for example is about 10x less | expensive than a specced out MacBook Pro | jchw wrote: | People are probably going to be reading your comparison as an | objective comparison rather than an opportunistic one. For | example, if you are choosing between upgrading AM4 processors | on your desktop versus buying a new Macbook Pro, then of | course it makes sense to compare the cost in those terms. | However, the price of the M1 chip is obviously probably not | that bad. Since you can't meaningfully buy it on its own, I | guess there is no fair comparison to make here anyways. | mhh__ wrote: | The M1 chip is actually probably extremely expensive. The | top of the line one is literally 60 BILLION transistors! | | My current machine has like 10 billion (GPU + CPU) | jchw wrote: | 60 billion is obviously a metric ton, but 10 billion is | not that ridiculous for an SoC to clear; there are | snapdragons at higher transistor counts. The AMD 5950X | clears 19 billion, and it is just a CPU with no GPU or | integrated RAM. I've got to guess the M1 transistor count | is inflated a fair bit by RAM. | | I suppose it's not likely we'll know the actual price of | the M1, but it would suffice to say it's probably a fair | bit less than the full laptop. | smiley1437 wrote: | Not sure if these numbers can believed, but apparently a | 300mm wafer at the 5nm node costs about $17000 for TSMC | to process | | https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tsmcs-wafer-prices- | reveale... | | Since the M1 is 120 mm2 and a 300mm wafer is about 70695 | mm2, you could theoretically fit 589 M1 chips on a wafer. | | Subtract the chips lost at the edge and other flaws, you | might be able to get 500 M1 off a wafer? (I know nothing | about what would be a reasonable yield but I'm pretty | sure a chip won't work if part of it is missing) | | Anyways, that would be $17000/500, or $34 per M1 chip - | based just on area and ignoring other processing costs. | hajile wrote: | The M1 Max is slightly off-square and 432mm^2. 19.1 x | 22.6 seems like a decent fit. | | TSMC has stated that N7 defect density was 0.09 a year | ago or so. They have also since stated that N5 defect | density was lower than N7. | | Let's plug that in here https://caly- | technologies.com/die-yield-calculator/ | | If we go with a defect density of 0.07, that's 94 good | dies and 32 harvest dies. At 0.08, it's 90 and 36 | respectively. | | If we put that at 120 dies per wafer and $17,000 per | wafer, that's just $141 per chip. That's probably WAAAYY | less than they are paying for the i9 chips in their 2019 | Macbook Pros. | | For comparison, AMD's 6900 GPU die is 519mm^2 and | Nvidia's 3080 is 628mm^2. Both are massively more | expensive to produce. | ribit wrote: | Workstation laptops are expensive. These new Macs are priced | quite competitively. E.g. the 14" with the full M1 Pro is | $2.5k and is faster, more portable and has a much better | display than a 2.7k Dell Precision 5560... | TheBigSalad wrote: | Aren't Dells usually pricer than retail because they | include some kind of service plan? | mhh__ wrote: | Very True although I note that I wouldn't be able to | actually work on one for the day job because of windows. | | Still might buy one, I want an arm box to test my work on | compilers on. | ribit wrote: | For me it's going to be a massive improvement. Already | the base M1 builds software faster than my Intel i9... | and given that these new chips have 400GB/s bandwidth it | will be a ridiculous improvement for my R data analysis | code... | megablast wrote: | Are you comparing the price of a chip to a laptop?? | LegitShady wrote: | can't really get it any other way. | | The issue to me is that because apple is the only one who | can put these in computers this will have no real effect on | PC component pricing. Apple makes, apple puts in apple | computers, can't run windows, if you're in another | ecosystem it's not even a real option. | mhh__ wrote: | Yes. If I bought one of these it would never actually move | so I don't actually mind the comparison all that much for | my personal use case, obviously it isn't apples to oranges | but my point is that this performance is not free. | whynotminot wrote: | What is it with the M1 series of chips that causes people | to bring completely disingenuous comparisons to the fray | with a straight face. | vinculuss wrote: | A boxed CPU is an odd comparison without considering | motherboard, ram, GPU, cooler, SSD, display in that | calculation as well. | hwita wrote: | Then perhaps you may want to wait for Apple to release a | desktop-class processor to make the comparison, perhaps | early next year? | yazaddaruvala wrote: | Its not clear to me that Apple will make a desktop-class | processor. The unit economics likely don't make sense for | them. | | All of Apple's innovation seems to be towards better and | cheaper AR/VR hardware. Desktop-class processors would be | a distraction for them. | | And with all of the top cloud players building custom | silicon these days, there is little room for Apple to | sell CPUs to the server market even if they were inclined | (which they are not). | | The only strategic Apple vertical that might align with | desktop-class CPUs is the Apple Car initiative and | specifically self-driving. Dedicated audio/image/video | processing and inference focused hardware could better | empower creatives for things like VFX or post-processing | or media in general. However, its not clear to me that is | enough of a market for Apple's unit economics compared | with more iDevice / MacBook sales. | hajile wrote: | At worst, wait until they release these in the iMac Pro | and maybe even the Mac Mini. Both easily have the | headroom for these chips. | xbar wrote: | Can you explain your unit economic analysis? | | They have made a Mac Pro desktop for several decades. I | am trying to follow your reasoning for Apple to sunset | that category of workstation as a result of transitioning | to Apple silicon, but it is not working out for me. | | My logic leads to a cheaper-to-produce-than-Macbook | workstation in an updated Mac Pro chassis with best- | binned M1X Max parts in the Spring followed by its first | chiplet-based Apple silicon workstation using the same | chassis in the Fall, followed by an annual iteration on | Apple silicon across its product line, on about the same | cadence as A/A-x iOS devices. | | Part of my reasoning is based on the assumption that Mac | Pro sales generate more Pro XDR sales displays at a | higher rate than Macbook Pro sales. I think the total | profit baked into an Apple silicon Mac Pro + Pro XDR is | big and fills a niche not filled by any thing else in the | market. Why leave it unfilled? | Closi wrote: | IMO it's obvious that there will need to be a desktop | version - and all the rumours are pointing towards a Mac | Pro release with silly specs - i.e. an SOC with something | like 40/64+ cores. Why would Apple want to give up their | portion of the high-power desktop market to Windows? | | What's the alternative? That they release another Mac Pro | with intel, despite their stated intention to move | everything away from x86, or that they release a Mac Pro | with just a laptop chip inside? | | Let's remember that Apple has an annual R&D budget of | c$20 billion, so it won't be totally shocking if they | diverted a small fraction of that to build out a desktop | processor. | xbar wrote: | Quite right. | lostmsu wrote: | Perhaps. AMD should also release 5nm processors by then | too. | neogodless wrote: | The 10-core (8 performance) M1 Max starts around $2700 in the | 14" form factor. | | It's hard to compare to laptops, but since we started the | desktop comparison, a Ryzen 7 5800X is $450 MSRP, or about | $370 current street price. Motherboards can be found for | $100, but you'll more likely spend $220-250 for a good match. | 32GB RAM is $150, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro is a bit under $200. | Let's assume desktop RTX 3060 for the graphics (which is | probably slightly more powerful than the 32-core GPU M1 Max) | for MSRP $330 but street price over $700. | | So we're at about $1670 for the components, before adding in | case ($100), power supply ($100) and other things a laptop | includes (screen, keyboard...). | jshier wrote: | M1 Pro has the same CPU cores as the M1 Max, just half the | GPU cores (and video coding cores). So you can get the same | CPU performance in the 14" for as little as $2499. | Thaxll wrote: | 5800x seems 20% faster for single core: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5874365 so def not on | part. | tbob22 wrote: | That's certainly overclocked or very high PBO offsets, at | stock the 5800x gets around 1700-1800 ST. | YetAnotherNick wrote: | This is the official score: | https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-7-5800x | hajile wrote: | But if you run TWO single-threaded workloads at once, the | clocks dial WAY back. Meanwhile, the M1 can keep all cores at | 3.2GHz pretty much indefinitely. | munro wrote: | Here's the link to the MacBookPro18,2 OpenCL benchmark: | | * M1 Max OpenCL https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/3551790 | [60,167 OpenCL Score] | | Comparing to my current MacBook Pro (16-inch Late 2019) & my | Hetzner AX101 server: | | * MacBook Pro (16-inch Late 2019) vs M1 Max - CPU | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10496766?baseli... | [single 163.6%, multi 188.8%] | | * MacBook Pro (16-inch Late 2019) vs M1 Max - OpenCL | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/compare/3551790?bas... | [180.8%] | | * Hetzner AX101 vs M1 Max - CPU | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10496766?baseli... | [single 105.0%, multi 86.4%] | | * NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 vs M1 Max - OpenCL | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/compare/3551790?bas... | [80.7%] | | * NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 vs M1 Max - OpenCL | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/compare/3551790?bas... | [29.0%, boo] | | I'm surprised the MacBook holds its own against the Hetzner | AX101's AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16-core CPU! The multi-core SQLite | performance surprises me, I would think the M1 Max's NVMe is | faster than my server's SAMSUNG MZQL23T8HCLS-00A07. | keymone wrote: | > * NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 vs M1 Max - OpenCL | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/compare/3551790?bas... | [29.0%] | | 30% performance for ~15% of power use in laptop form factor? | that's not boo, that seems like a clear win for apple. | muro wrote: | Performance doesn't go down linearly with power. I don't have | that card to try, but maybe it would do even better at 15% of | power. | keymone wrote: | i doubt it'll even initialize. | r00fus wrote: | There is a floor below which it will go straight to 0 (ie, | nonfunctional). | | The M1 Max is well below that floor at max wattage. | klelatti wrote: | Thanks - interesting on OpenCL - presumably running on GPU? All | that memory opens up some interesting possibilities. | | Also I thought Apple was deprecating OpenCL in favour of Metal? | 58028641 wrote: | OpenCL and OpenGL have been deprecated in favor of Metal. | Geekbench also has a Metal compute benchmark. | bredren wrote: | Is there a metal benchmark? This is the score I've been | most interested in. | munro wrote: | Nay, there isn't one for the new M1 Max, but FWIW it's | pretty comparable, but OpenCL is a bit faster than Metal. | | * MacBook Pro (16-inch Late 2019) - Metal | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/3139776 [31,937 | metal score] * MacBook Pro (16-inch Late 2019) - OpenCL | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/3139756 [33,280 | OpenCL score] | m15i wrote: | Anyone know if that "Device Memory 42.7 GB" is fixed or can be | increased? | munro wrote: | The MacBook Pro M1 Max can be ordered with either 32 GB or 64 | GB of unified memory. The geekbench report shows 64 GB of | memory (maxed), not sure why only 42.7 GB is usable by OpenCL | --so I guess we have to assume that's the max, unless there's | some software fix to get it up to 64 GB. | marcodiego wrote: | I wonder what Asahi Linux devs can show us. | [deleted] | raylad wrote: | Compared to the late 2020 Macbook Air: | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10508178?baseli... | LeoPanthera wrote: | This confirms that single-core performance is essentially the | same as the basic M1. | jkeddo wrote: | One big thing to consider is that this is just the _first_ m1 Max | Geekbench score, compared against the world 's greatest 11900Ks. | Most 11900K's are nowhere near the levels of the top preforming | one. | | Once Apple starts shipping M1 Max in volume, and as TSMC yields | get better, you will see "golden chips" slowly start to score | even higher than this one. | cauk wrote: | Golden chips? | spacedcowboy wrote: | In every manufacturing process there are always chips that | perform better than others. They all reach the "bin" that | they're designed for, but the _actual_ design is for higher | than that, so that even imperfect chips can perform at the | required level. | | The corollary of that is that there are some chips that | perform better than the design parameters would have you | expect, they're easier to overclock and get higher speeds | from. These are the "golden" chips. | | Having said that, it's not clear to me that the M1* will do | that, I don't know if Apple self-tune the chips on boot to | extract the best performance, or they just slap in a standard | clock-rate and anything that can meet it, does. I'd expect | the latter, tbh. It's a lot easier, and it means there's less | variation between devices which has lots of knock-on benefits | to QA and the company in general, even if it means users | can't overclock. | trenchgun wrote: | There are slight variations in materials, processes, etc. | | End result: some chips just end up being better than others. | m15i wrote: | How will these chips do for training neural nets? The 64 GB RAM | would be awesome for larger models, so I'm willing to sacrifice | some training speed. | cschmid wrote: | I know this doesn't answer your question, but can I just ask | (out of curiosity) why you're training ML models on a laptop? | m15i wrote: | It's all about the RAM. 64GB would allow input of larger | image sizes and/or nets with more parameters. Right now, the | consumer card with the most RAM is the rtx 3090 which is only | 24GB, and in my opinion overpriced and inefficient in terms | of wattage (~350W). Even the ~$6000 RTX A6000 cards are only | 48GB. | cschmid wrote: | I don't think replacing a workstation with a Macbook | because of RAM makes too much sense: If running one | minibatch of your model already takes up all the memory you | have, where would the rest of your training data sit? In | the M1, you don't have a separate main memory. | | Also, software support for accelerated training on Apple | hardware is extremely limited: Out of the main frameworks, | only tensorflow seems to target it, and even there, the | issues you'll face won't be high on the priority list. | | I know that nvidia GPUs are very expensive, but if you're | really serious about training a large model, the only | alternative would be paying rent to Google. | bhouston wrote: | Where is the graphics test? The M1 Max versus an NVIDIA 3080 or | similar? | alfredxing wrote: | In the keynote Apple said the M1 Max should be comparable to | the performance of an RTX 3080 Laptop (the footnote on the | graph specified the comparison was against an MSI GE76 Raider | 11UH-053), which is still quite a bit below the desktop 3080. | akmarinov wrote: | No way it can get anywhere near 3080 | mhh__ wrote: | I'm waiting to be corrected by someone who knows GPU | architecture better than me but as far as I can tell the | _synthetic_ benchmarks can trade blows with a 3070 or 80 | (mobile), but the actual gaming performance isn 't going to be | as rosy. | | Also recall that very few games needing that performance | actually work on MacOS | smoldesu wrote: | The gaming performance will be CPU-bottlenecked. Without | proper Wine/DXVK support, they have to settle for interpreted | HLE or dynamic recompilation, neither of which are very | feasible on modern CPUs, much less ARM chips. | schleck8 wrote: | Does someone know how much VRAM the M1X has? Because I bet | it's far less than a 3070 or 3080. | mhh__ wrote: | The memory is unified, and very high bandwidth. No idea | what that means in practice, guess we'll find out. | pornel wrote: | It's very high bandwidth for a CPU, but not that great | for a GPU (400GB/s vs 440GB/s in 3070 and 980GB/s in | 3090). | artificialLimbs wrote: | >> ...not that great for a GPU _... | | * almost equals the highest laptop GPU available_ | coayer wrote: | But it's also a premium product, so it matching a 3070m | isn't really above what you'd expect for the cost (but | efficiency is another story) | oneplane wrote: | On the other hand, it's zero-copy between CPU and GPU. | minhazm wrote: | It's not quite apples to apples. The 3070 only has 8GB of | memory available, whereas the M1 Max has up to 64 GB | available. It's also unified memory in the M1 and doesn't | require a copy between CPU & GPU. Some stuff will be | better for the M1 Max and some stuff will be worse. | nottorp wrote: | Of course, with a 3070 and up you have to play with | headphones so you don't hear the fan noise. | | This is the best feature of the new Apple CPUs if you ask | me: silence. | | Now to wait for a decent desktop... | ribit wrote: | Up to 64GB... | jbverschoor wrote: | There's no vram. It's unified / shared memory. There's no | M1X. There's M1 Pro and M1 Max | akaij wrote: | I think we can safely shorten them to M1P and M1X. | amne wrote: | the memory is unified so whatever ram is on there | (16,32,64) can be allocated as vram. | | That's why during the presentation they bragged about how | certain demanding 3d scenes can now be rendered on a | notebook. | EugeneOZ wrote: | I still didn't get their example about the 100Gb | spaceship model - max RAM supported is 64Gb... | f0rmatfunction wrote: | M1 Pro & Max (and plain M1 too for what it's worth) have | unified memory across both CPU and GPU. So depending on the | model it'd be up to 32gb or 64gb (not accounting for the | amount being used by the CPU). Put differently - far more | than 3070 and 3080. | labby5 wrote: | It's really hard to compare Apple and Nvidia, but a bit | easier to compare Apple to AMD. My best guess is performance | will be similar to a 6700xt. Of course, none of this really | matters for gaming if studios don't support the Mac. | neogodless wrote: | The mobile RTX 3080 limited to 105W is comparable to about | an RX 6700M, which is well behind the desktop RX 6700XT. | EricE wrote: | "Also recall that very few games needing that performance | actually work on MacOS" | | But many Windows games do run under Crossover (a commercial | wrap of WINE - well worth the measly licensing fee for | seamless ease of use to me) or the Windows 10 ARM beta in | Parallels. I got so many games to run on my M1 MacBook Air I | ended up returning it to wait for the next round that could | take more RAM. I'm very, very happy I waited for these and I | fully expect it will replace my Windows gaming machine too. | ribit wrote: | Well, Apple G13 series are excellent rasterizers. I'd expect | them do very well in games, especially with that massive | bandwidth and humongous caches. The problem is that not many | games run on macOS. But if you are only interested in games | with solid Mac support, they will perform very well | (especially if it's a native client like Baldurs Gates 3). | Thaxll wrote: | "very well" 45 fps top at 1080p medium settings | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hROxRQvO-gQ | | You take a 3 years old card you get 2x more fps. | ribit wrote: | Which other passively cooled laptop can do it? And what 3 | year old card are you comparing it to? Hopefully | something with 20W or lower power consumption. | | 45fps at medium Full HD is not far off a 1650 Max q | Thaxll wrote: | Apple compare themself to a 3080m, the perf from an M1 is | not even close to a 3 y/o card. I don't care if it takes | 10w if I can't even play at 60fps on "recent'ish" games. | mhh__ wrote: | What is the most intensive game you could actually run? | | I was going to say Fortnite but I'm guessing that's not the | case anymore | ribit wrote: | Baldurs Gates 3, Metro Last Light, Total War... | tromp wrote: | Seems kind of unfair with the NVIDIA using up to 320W of power | and having nearly twice the memory bandwidth. But if it runs | even half as well as a 3080, that would represent amazing | performance per Watt. | throwawaywindev wrote: | I believe they compared it to a ~100W mobile RTX 3080, not a | desktop one. And the mobile part can go up to ~160W on gaming | laptops like Legion 7 that have better cooling than the MSI | one they compared to. | | They have a huge advantage in performance/watt but not in raw | performance. And I wonder how much of that advantage is | architecture vs. manufacturing process node. | moron4hire wrote: | I am very confused by these claims on M1's GPU performance. | I build a WebXR app at work that runs at 120hz on the Quest | 2, 90hz on my Pixel 5, and 90hz on my Window 10 desktop | with an RTX 2080 with the Samsung Odyssey+ _and_ a 4K | display at the same time. And these are just the native | refresh rates, you can 't run any faster with the way VR | rendering is done in the browser. But on my M1 Mac Mini, I | get 20hz on a single, 4K screen. | | My app doesn't do a lot. It displays high resolution | photospheres, performs some teleconferencing, and renders | spatialized audio. And like I said, it screams on | Snapdragon 865-class hardware. | astlouis44 wrote: | What sort of WebXR app? Game or productivity app? | moron4hire wrote: | Productivity. It's a social VR experience for teaching | foreign language. It's part of our existing class | structure, so there isn't really much to do if you aren't | scheduled to meet with a teacher. | [deleted] | wtallis wrote: | The MSI laptop in question lets the GPU use up to 165W. See | eg. AnandTech's review of that MSI laptop, which measured | 290W at the wall while gaming: | https://www.anandtech.com/show/16928/the-msi-ge76-raider- | rev... (IIRC, it originally shipped with a 155W limit for | the GPU, but that got bumped up by a firmware update.) | fnordsensei wrote: | The performance right now is interesting, but the | performance trajectory as they evolve their GPUs over the | coming generations will be even more interesting to follow. | | Who knows, maybe they'll evolve solutions that will | challenge desktop GPUs, as they have done with the CPUs. | moron4hire wrote: | A "100W mobile RTX 3080" is basically not using the GPU at | all. At that power draw, you can't do anything meaningful. | So I guess the takeaway is "if you starve a dedicated GPU, | then the M1 Max gets within 90%!" | wilde wrote: | Apple invited the comparison during their keynote. ;) | Thaxll wrote: | It's probably bad, the M1 could not get 60fps on WoW so ... | When I see Apple comparison I would take that with a grain of | salts because the M1 is not able to run any modern game at | decent fps. | williamtwild wrote: | "the M1 is not able to run any modern game at decent fps." | | Do you have first hand experience with this? I do . We play | WoW on MacBook air M1 and it runs fantastic . Better than my | intel MacBook Pro from 2019 | schleck8 wrote: | "Running fantastic" is what Apple would advertise, but what | matters is fps, utilisation and thermals when benchmarking | games | Thaxll wrote: | Defines fantastic because a 1080ti from 4 years ago run | faster than the M1. My 2070 could run wow at 144fps, and | it's a 2.5y/o card. | | Yet most people can't get 60fps: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhcJzKCcpMQ | | Edit: thanks for the dates update | windowsrookie wrote: | Comparing the M1 to a 1080ti is ridiculous. The 1080ti | draws 250+ watts. The M1 draws 10w in the MacBook Air. | | In the current market you can buy a MacBook Air (an | entire laptop computer) for less than buying just a | midrange GPU. | Thaxll wrote: | Well Apple compared themself to a 3080m which is faster | than a 1080ti. | Zarel wrote: | No one has explained what you got wrong, so in case | anyone reading this is still confused, Apple compared an | M1 Max to a 3080m. An M1 Max's graphics card is ~4x as | fast as an M1. | danieldk wrote: | The 1080 Ti was made available in March 2017, so it's 4.5 | years old. Not 6. | jbverschoor wrote: | My M1 cannot properly without stuttering show | https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/ (esp. the second | animation of opening and turning the laptop). | | Both safari and chrome | garblegarble wrote: | That's because it's actually a series of jpegs rather than | a video(!!) - the same happens on my Intel Mac | wil421 wrote: | Are modern games built with Metal? Pretty sure Apple | deprecated OpenGL support. Macs have never been gaming | computers. | | The GPUs in the M1 family of Macs are for "professional" | users doing Video Editing, Content creation, 3D editing, | Photo editing and audio processing. | lights0123 wrote: | MoltenVK is Vulkan's official translation layer to Metal, | and doesn't have too much overhead. Combine with dxvk or | d3vkd to translate from DirectX--DirectX before 12 is | generally faster with DXVK that Windows' native support. | plandis wrote: | That's not great especially because I believe WoW works | natively for the M1 and uses the Metal API. | | My follow up would be what settings were you playing at? | varjag wrote: | Someone needs to come up with realistic Mac benchmarks. Like | 'seconds it takes for Finder beachball to disappear'. At this | metric my M1 sees no improvement over my MB12. | bborud wrote: | Beachball disappears when Apple's developers learn to write | asynchronous code. (You can't blaame the hardware for | programming decisions that are fundamentally slow or stupid). | ur-whale wrote: | How does that compare to top of the line AMD Ryzen latest gen | (site is dead for me right now)? | tbob22 wrote: | Single core is similar to the 5900x but multicore is more in | line with 3900x. | | Quite impressive for a laptop, I'm sure the power consumption | will be much higher compared to the M1 but likely no where near | desktop parts. | EvgeniyZh wrote: | Top intel mobile processor appears to be | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10431820 M1 Max gives 9% | boost for single-core and 34% for multicore, with similar or | larger (?) TDP -- Intel is 35-45 W, M1 Max is 60W but I assume | some of it (a lot?) goes to GPU. Impressive, but probably | wouldn't be called revolution if came from Intel. | Weryj wrote: | At first glace yeah, but that's 45W at 2.5Ghz, but TDP isn't | the power rating of the CPU. That benchmark lists the Intel CPU | as up to 4.9Ghz, I would say it's actual power draw was closer | to the 100W mark for CPU only. | EvgeniyZh wrote: | 4.9 GHz should be single-core max freq, not applicable in | multicore benchmark. All-core turbo is lower, but also AFAIK | there is a limit on time it run on this freq (tau for PL2, i | think around half a minute by default). | klelatti wrote: | Is there any reason why the Intel CPU wouldn't run at 4.9 | GHz for the single core benchmark though - whilst the M1 | would be limited to a much lower frequency which it can | sustain for much longer? | EvgeniyZh wrote: | I think, but I'm not 100% sure, that limits are on | overall TDP, i.e., single-core workloaad can run on turbo | indefinitely. Then aalso I'd assume benchmarks are much | longer than any reasonable value of tau which means it | integrates out (i.e., Intel performance may be higher in | short-term). Edit: that is probably one of the reasons | single-core gap is smaller | klelatti wrote: | Thanks - this all highlights some of the interesting | trade offs in CPU design! | neogodless wrote: | Just to throw AMD in the mix, Ryzen 9 5980HX (35-54W). | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10431820 | | M1 Max leading 17% single core, 50% multi-core. | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10496766?baseli... | foldr wrote: | If the TDP was really the same we'd be seeing Intel laptops | with 20 hour battery lives. | EvgeniyZh wrote: | Battery life is more about idle/low load TDP, not full load | TDP. It's not like MBP has 60*20=1200 Wh battery (100Wh is | FAA limit) | hajile wrote: | M1 only uses around 15-18w with all 8 cores active according to | Anandtech's review (with E-cores using 1/10 the power, that's | equivalent to just a little less than 4.5 big cores. I'd guess | 30w for all cores would be the upper-end power limit for the | cores. | | Intel's "TDP" is a suggestion rather than reality. Their chips | often hit 60-80 watts of peak power before hitting thermals and | being forced to dial back. | badhombres wrote: | I'm curios on the difference between the 8 cores and 10 cores for | the M1 Pro. I'm definitely not going to get the Max, I'm just not | the user that needs the GPU's | ksec wrote: | I have seen far too many people making comments on MacPro "Pro" | Chip. | | A hypothetical _32_ Core CPU and _64_ Core GPU is about the max | Apple could make in terms of die size reticle limit without going | chiplet and TDP limit without some exotic cooling solution. Which | means you cant have some imaginary 64 Core CPU and 128 Core GPU. | | We can now finally have a Mac Cube, where the vast majority of | the Cube will simply be a heat sink and it will still be faster | than current Intel Mac Pro. I think this chip makes most sense | with the A16 design on 4nm next year [1]. | | Interesting question would be memory, current Mac Pro support | 1.5TB. A 16 Channel DDR5 would be required to feed the GPU, but | that also means minimum memory on Mac Pro would be 128GB at 8GB | per DIMM. One could use HBM on package, but that doesn't provide | ECC Memory protection. | | [1] TSMC 3nm has been postponed in case anyone not paying | attention, so the whole roadmap has been shifted by a year. If | this still doesn't keep those repeating Moore's law has not died | yet I dont know what will. | wmf wrote: | It's not hard to imagine that "Jade 2C-Die" mean two compute | die chiplets and "Jade 4C-Die" means four chiplets which makes | 40 CPU cores and 128 GPU cores about the same size as Sapphire | Rapids. It could have 256 GB RAM on a 2048-bit bus with 1,600 | GB/s of bandwidth. | ksec wrote: | Chiplet isn't a silver bullet and without compromise. You | will then need to figure the memory configuration and NUMA | access. Basically the Jade 2C-Die on chiplet analogy doesn't | make sense unless you make some significant changes to | Jade-C. | | Jade 4C-Die on a single die only make sense up to 40 Core ( | 4x Current CPU Core or 32 HP Core and 8 HE Core ), unless | there are some major cache rework there aren't any space for | 128 GPU Core. | | But then we also know Apple has no problem with _only_ 2 HE | Core on a MacBook Pro Laptop, why would they want to put _8_ | HE Core on a Desktop? | lowbloodsugar wrote: | If someone had said in 2018 "Apple is going to release a | macbook pro with an ARM chip that will be faster at running x86 | applications than an x86 chip while having a 20 hour batter | life", then a lot of people would have responded with a lot of | very clever sounding reasons why this couldn't possibly work | and what the limitations would be on a hypothetical chip and | how a hypothetical chip that they can imagine would behave. | | I think the evidence is that Apple's chip designers don't care | about anyone's preconceived and very logical sounding ideas | about what can and can't be done. | | So what we know is that there is going to be a Mac Pro, and | that whatever it is is going to absolutely destroy the | equivalent (i.e. absolute top of the range) x86 PC. | | If you want to be right, take that as a fact, and work | backwards from there. Any argument that starts with " _I_ don | 't think it can be done" is a losing argument. | runeks wrote: | But does it support running x86 Docker images using hardware | emulation? | | This is what's holding me off buying one since I don't know | whether to get 16 GB RAM (if it _doesn 't_ work) or 32 GB RAM (if | it _does_ work). | ArchOversight wrote: | There is no hardware in the M1's for x86 emulation. Rosetta 2 | does on the fly translation for JIT and caches translation for | x86_864 binaries on first launch. | | Docker for Mac runs a VM, inside that VM (which is Linux for | ARM) if you run an x86_64 docker image it will use qemu to | emulate x86_64 and run Linux Intel ELF binaries as if they were | ARM. | | That means that currently using Docker on macOS if there is a | native ARM version available for the docker image, it will use | that, but it can and will fall back to using x86_64 docker | images. | | That already works as-is. There is no hardware emulation | though, it is all QEMU doing the work. | giantrobot wrote: | Note that Docker Desktop for Mac has _always_ used a VM to | run a Linux instance. Same with Docker Desktop on Windows (I | don 't know if this has changed with WSL). The main | difference on M1 Macs is the qemu emulation when a Docker | image is only available as x86_64. If the image is available | in AArch64 it runs native on the M1. | DeathArrow wrote: | > Same with Docker Desktop on Windows (I don't know if this | has changed with WSL). | | Not really. On Windows you can choose if you want to run | Linux binaries in a VM or native Windows containers. | thesandlord wrote: | I feel Windows Containers are a whole separate thing. I | personally have never seen anyone use them, but then | again I have never worked on a Windows Server stack. | ArchOversight wrote: | Native Windows Containers run Native Windows Binaries. | You can't just launch your Linux docker containers using | Native Windows Containers. | ArchOversight wrote: | Oh yeah, I thought the whole VM thing was implied with the | fact that Docker is a Linux technology... | watermelon0 wrote: | WSL1 doesn't support cgroups and other pieces needed to run | containers, but Docker Desktop can use WSL2, which uses a | lightweight VM in the background, so you are correct. | nunez wrote: | That said, x86_64 images that require QEMU are much buggier | than pure arm64 images. Terraform's x86_64 image, for | example, will run into random network hangups that the ARM | image doesn't experience. It was bad enough for me to | maintain my own set of arm64 Terraform images. | IceWreck wrote: | Why does Apple not open up their hardware to other operating | systems like Linux. They will already get our money from the | hardware purchases, what more do they want. | | I know Asahi Linux exists but without Apple's (driver) support it | will never reach macOS on M1 level performance. | | (If someone disagrees, please compare Nouveau with proprietary | Nvidia drivers.) | oneplane wrote: | Because Apple intends to sell UX, not just some hardware. | klelatti wrote: | I'd like this but you make it sound like this would not require | significant effort from them. | | I suspect they would say if you want to run Linux you can do it | in a VM and use the already debugged MacOS device drivers. | ctdonath wrote: | Apple's core competency is selling hardware, with a tightly | integrated ecosystem to optimize user experience with that | hardware. | | There is no incentive to facilitate introducing that hardware | into an uncontrolled foreign ecosystem. Apple does not want | users looking at their computer while muttering "this sucks" | when "this" is an OS+UI famous for incomplete/buggy behavior. | | (I've tried going all-in for Linux several times. The amount of | "oh, you've got to tweak this..." makes it unusable.) | basisword wrote: | As cool as that would be, why would they? I mean what do they | have to gain from it? Maybe a few more Linux users will buy | MacBook's but not enough to impact their bottom line. Plus | those users wouldn't be part of the Apple ecosystem and at | least since the iPod Apple's goal has been bringing you into | the ecosystem. | bilbo0s wrote: | More importantly, those users would complain and some would | even ask for support. | | As horrible as this is going to sound, I'm thinking both | Apple and Microsoft file that under: "Some users are not | worth the trouble." | | Probably OK for server users though? But Apple doesn't really | make servers. | someguydave wrote: | Apple could gain some trust and goodwill from the technical | user base they have been alienating for 10 years | spacedcowboy wrote: | _shrug_ doesn 't look like they need it. As long as they | keep churning out machines and devices that make people's | wallets reflexively open, they don't have to pander to the | tiny minorities... | | Not a particularly _nice_ situation to be in, if you 're | not in the Apple ecosystem, but there's the world we live | in, and the world we wish it to be. Only sometimes do those | worlds overlap. | LASR wrote: | I bet the number of people within the technical user base | for whom the lack of linux support is a deal-breaker is | significantly smaller than the number of people who don't | care. | | So while it's a nice boost in goodwill, it's probably small | enough for Apple to safely ignore. | walls wrote: | Nobody wants the Linux desktop experience associated with their | brand. | masterof0 wrote: | ^ I agree, and also the support burden of N distros, for N -> | inf. | PUSH_AX wrote: | Steam hardware? | ctdonath wrote: | Operative word: "want". | | There was no other viable option. | jzb wrote: | They have some of your money, but they want more of it. | | Mac owners are more likely to buy iPads and iPhones and become | embedded in the Apple ecosystem. That draws people into the app | stores, which Apple gets a cut of, and into Apple Music and | Apple TV... | | If they're very successful they get you to sign up for Apple | Pay and the Apple Card and get a chunk of your spend for things | entirely unrelated to Apple. | | If they just sell you the hardware and you can easily run Linux | on it, you might not run macOS and move further into their | ecosystem. | jzb wrote: | Also - even if they only wanted your hardware money, if you | run Linux on Apple hardware, there's less chance your next | purchase will be Apple hardware. Linux is portable, macOS | isn't (legally, easily -- Hackintoshes notwithstanding, but | even those are going to go away when Apple ditches Intel | hardware for good). | DeathArrow wrote: | >Hackintoshes notwithstanding, but even those are going to | go away when Apple ditches Intel hardware for good | | Maybe people will find a way to build ARM hackintoshes. :) | kitsunesoba wrote: | Nouveau is a bit of a special case because Nvidia actively | blocks third party drivers from fully leveraging the | capabilities of their cards. While Apple isn't officially | supporting any particular third party OS on M-series hardware, | they're also not obstructing the creation of high performance | third party drivers for it. | gumby wrote: | > Why does Apple not open up their hardware to other operating | systems | | It's extra effort they don't want to go to. They spent a lot of | engineering and support time working with MS on boot camp, | handling (what are to them) special cases and back | compatibility. They really needed it at the time, but no longer | need it so make no effort in making it happen. And Apple never | did linux support, it's simply that linux runs on most hardware | that runs windows. | | Among other things, here's a major reason why it's hard: Apple | supports their hardware and software for quite a long time, but | is happy to break back compatibility along the way. MS | considers back compatibility critical, despite the cost. I | respect both positions. But getting windows running on intel | Mac hardware wasn't automatic, and required developing support | for bits of code designed (by MS) for all sorts of special | cases. They simply needed it, so did the work, with the | cooperation of MS. | spitfire wrote: | What am I missing here? The marketing presentations spoke about | 200GB/sec and 400GB/sec parts. Existing CPU's generally have 10s | of GB/sec. But I see these parts beating out existing parts by | small margins - 100% at best. | | Where is all that bandwidth going? Are none of these synthetic | benchmarks stressing memory IO that much? Surely compression | should benefit from 400GB/sec bandwidth? | | This also raises the question how are those multiple memory | channels laid out? Sequentually? Stripped? Bitwise, byte wise or | word stripped? | hajile wrote: | They have 5.2 and 10.4 TFLOPS of GPU power to feed in addition | to 10 very wide cores. | jb1991 wrote: | Would like to see the Metal benchmark too, but doesn't appear yet | on the Geekbench Metal page. That would be interesting to see how | Geekbench scores it against many discreet GPUs. | amatecha wrote: | You can find more results at | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=Apple+M1+Max | | (it does, broadly, appear to be pretty comparable to Intel | i9-11900K | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=Intel+Core+i9-... ) | newfonewhodis wrote: | i9-11900K is 125W TDP, and the M1 is probably nowhere near that | (M1 is 10-15W TDP) | Flatcircle wrote: | How does this compare to a Mac Pro for video editing | vineyardmike wrote: | Should be better. The discussed how it was even better than | MacPro with afterburner. | JohnTHaller wrote: | Looks like it's somewhere between my AMD Ryzen 5800X desktop | (paid about $800) and a 5900X. | blakesterz wrote: | I just can't figure out what I'm missing on the "M1 is so fast" | side of things. For years I worked* on an Ubuntu desktop machine | I built myself. Early this year I switched to a brand new M1 mini | and this this is slower and less reliable than the thing I built | myself that runs Ubuntu. My Ubuntu machine had a few little | issues every no and then. My Mini has weird bugs all the time. | e.g. Green Screen Crashes when I have a thumbdrive plugged in. | Won't wake from sleep. Loses bluetooth randomly. Not at all what | I'd expect from something built by the company with unlimited | funds. I would expect those issues from the Ubuntu box, but the | problems were small on that thing. | | *Work... Docker, Ansible, Rails apps, nothing that requires | amazing super power. Everything just runs slower. | PragmaticPulp wrote: | > I just can't figure out what I'm missing on the "M1 is so | fast" side of things. | | Two reasons: | | 1. M1 is a super fast _laptop_ chip. It provides mid-range | desktop performance in a laptop form factor with mostly fanless | operation. No matter how you look at it, that 's impressive. | | 2. Apple really dragged their feet on updating the old Intel | Macs before the transition. People in the Mac world (excluding | hackintosh) were stuck on relatively outdated x86-64 CPUs. | Compared to those older CPUs, the M1 Max is a huge leap | forward. Compared to modern AMD mobile parts, it's still faster | but not by leaps and bounds. | | But I agree that the M1 hype may be getting a little out of | hand. It's fast and super power efficient, but it's mostly on | par with mid-range 8-core AMD desktop CPUs from 2020. Even | AMD's top mobile CPU isn't that far behind the M1 Max in | Geekbench scores. | | I'm very excited to get my M1 Max in a few weeks. But if these | early Geekbench results are accurate, it's going to be about | half as fast as my AMD desktop in code compilation (see Clang | results in the detailed score breakdown). That's still mightily | impressive from a low-power laptop! But I think some of the | rhetoric about the M1 Max blowing away desktop CPUs is getting | a little ahead of the reality. | VortexDream wrote: | The fact that this beats AMDs top laptop CPU is actually a | huge deal. And that's before considering battery life and | thermals. | | I'll never buy an Apple computer, but I can't help but be | impressed with what they've achieved here. | PragmaticPulp wrote: | Don't get me wrong: It's impressive and I have huge respect | for it. I also bought one. | | However, it would be surprising if Apple's new 5nm chip | _didn 't_ beat AMD's older 7nm chip at this point. Apple | specifically bought out all of TSMC's 5nm capacity for | themselves while AMD was stuck on 7nm (for now). | | It will be interesting to see how AMD's new 6000 series | mobile chips perform. According to rumors they might be | launched in the next few months. | smoldesu wrote: | This definitely is a factor. Another thing that people | frequently overlook is how competitive Zen 2 is with M1: | the 4800u stands toe-to-toe with the M1 in a lot of | benchmarks, and consistently beats it in multicore | performance. | | Make no mistake, the M1 is a truly solid processor. It | has seriously stiff competition though, and I get the | feeling x86 won't be dead for another half decade or so. | By then, Apple will be competing with RISC-V desktop | processors with 10x the performance-per-watt, and once | again they'll inevitably shift their success metrics to | some other arbitrary number ("The 2031 Macbook Pro Max XS | has the highest dollars-per-keycap ratio out of any of | the competing Windows machines we could find!") | LDataReady wrote: | I think people are missing the fact that it's performance + | energy efficiency where M1 blows regular x86 out of the | water. | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | > _Apple really dragged their feet on updating the old Intel | Macs before the transition. People in the Mac world | (excluding hackintosh) were stuck on relatively outdated | x86-64 CPUs._ | | Maybe my expectations are different; but my 16" MacBook Pro | has a Core i9-9880H, which is a 19Q2 released part - it's not | exactly ancient. | camillomiller wrote: | You need to consider the larger target group of | professionals. It's really GPU capabilities that blow | everything away. If you don't plan to use your MacBook Pro | for video/photo editing or 3D modeling, then a M1 Pro with | the same 10-core CPU and 16-core Neural Engine has all you | need and costs less. Unless I'm missing something I don't | think there much added benefit from the added GPU cores in | your scenario, unless you want to go with the maximum | configurable memory. | eecc wrote: | Well, the MAX has double the memory bandwidth of a PRO, but | I cannot see workloads other than the ones you mentioned | where it would make a significant improvement. | | Perhaps ML but that's all proprietarized on CUDA so it's | unlikely. | | Perhaps Apple could revive OpenCL from the ashes? | johnboiles wrote: | https://developer.apple.com/metal/tensorflow-plugin/ | alexcnwy wrote: | Pro only supports 2 external displays which is why I | ordered max | jjcon wrote: | > GPU capabilities that blow everything away | | Compared to previous macs and igpus - an nvidia gpu will | still run circles arounnd this thing | jachee wrote: | In a quiet laptop? | jjcon wrote: | If you are trying to do hardcore video editing or | modeling then 'quiet laptop' likely comes second to speed | mataug wrote: | > Compared to previous macs and igpus - an nvidia gpu | will still run circles arounnd this thing | | True, but the point here is that M1 is able to achieve | outstanding performance per watt numbers compared to | Nvidia or Intel. | KptMarchewa wrote: | Are you really rendering in a cafe that you need on the | go GPU performance? | alwillis wrote: | GPUs are no longer special purposes components; certainly | in macOS, the computation capabilities of the GPU are | used for all sorts of frameworks and APIs. | | It's not just about rendering any more. | zsmi wrote: | For the content creator class that needs to | shoot/edit/upload daily, while minimizing staff, I can | see definite advantages to having a setup which is both | performant and mobile. | kylemh wrote: | Besides what the other person commented, also consider | creatives that travel. Bringing their desktop with them | isn't an option. | ArchOversight wrote: | Editing photos or reviewing them before getting back home | to know if you need to re-shoot, reviewing 8K footage on | the fly, applying color grading to get an idea of what | the final might look like to know if you need to re- | shoot, re-light or change something... | | There are absolutely use-cases where this is going to | enable new ways of looking at content and give more | control and ability to review stuff in the field. | PostThisTooFast wrote: | It has been a long time since editing photos has required | anything more than run-of-the-mill performance. | mataug wrote: | Adding to all the usecases listed by other commenters. | | Having a higher performance per watt numbers also implies | less heat from M1's perspective. This means that even if | someone isn't doing CPU/GPU heavy tasks, they are still | getting better battery life since power isn't being | wasted on cooling by spinning up the fans. | | For some perspective, My current 2019, 16inch i7 MBP gets | warm even if I leave it idling for 20 - 30 mins and I can | barely get ~4hrs of battery life. My wife's M1 macbook | air stays cool despite being fanless, and lasts the whole | day with similar usage. | | The point is performance per watt matters a lot in a | portable device, regardless of its capabilities. | FractalHQ wrote: | I am often rendering and coding while traveling for work | a few months out of the year. Even when I'm home, I | prefer spending my time in the forest behind my house, so | being able to use Blender or edit videos as well as code | and produce music anywhere I want is pretty sweet. | whynotminot wrote: | Why would you even buy a laptop if you don't need to be | mobile? | gtirloni wrote: | Fewer cables is one reason. | monkmartinez wrote: | Yes, Nvidia GPU's are a major reason I switched to PC | about 3 years ago. That and I can upgrade RAM and SSD's | myself on desktops and laptops. The power from | professional apps like Solidworks, Agisoft metashape, and | some Adobe products with a Nvidia card and drivers is | like night and day with a Mac at the time I switched. | | Does Apple have any ISV certified offerings? I can't find | one. I suspect Apple will never win the Engineering crowd | with the M1 switch... so many variable go into these | systems builds and Apple just doesn't have that business | model. | | Even with these crazy M1's, I still have doubts about | Apple winning the Movie/Creative market. LED walls, | Unreal Engine, Unity are being used for SOOOO much more | than just games now. The hegemony of US centric content | creation is also dwindling... budget rigs are a heck of | lot easier to source and pay for than M1's in most parts | of the world. | DCKing wrote: | Not so sure about that "running circles around". While | the M1 Max will not beat a mobile RTX 3080 (~same chip as | desktop RTX 3070), Apple is in the same ballpark of its | performance [1] (or is being extremely misleading in | their performance claims [2]). | | Nvidia very likely has leading top end performance still, | but "running circles around this thing" is probably not a | fair description. Apple certainly has a credible claim to | destroy Ampere in terms of power per watt - just limiting | themselves in the power envelope still. (It's worth | noting that AMD's RDNA2 already edges out Ampere in | performance per watt - that's not really Nvidia's strong | suit in their current lineup). | | [1]: https://www.apple.com/v/macbook- | pro-14-and-16/a/images/overv... - which in the footnote | is shown to compare the M1 Max to this laptop with mobile | RTX 3080: https://us- | store.msi.com/index.php?route=product/product&pro... | | [2]: There's _a lot_ of things wrong with in how vague | Apple tends to be about performance, but their unmarked | graphs have been okay for general ballpark estimates at | least. | jjcon wrote: | Definitely impressive in terms of power efficiency if | Apples benchmarks (vague as they are) come close to | accurate. Comparing the few video benchmarks we are | seeing from the M1Max to leading Nvidia cards I'm still | seeing about 3-5x the performance across plenty of | workloads (Id consider anything >2x running circles). | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/3551790 | spacedcowboy wrote: | Anything that _can_ run rings around it is unlikely to be | running on a battery in a laptop, at least for any | reasonable length of time. | derefr wrote: | > an nvidia gpu will still run circles arounnd this thing | | Not for loading up models larger than 32GB it wouldn't. | (They exist! That's what the "full-detail model of the | starship Enterprise" thing in the keynote was about.) | | Remember that on any computer _without_ unified memory, | you can only load a scene the size of the GPU 's VRAM. No | matter how much main memory you have to swap against, no | matter how many GPUs you throw at the problem, no magic | wand is going to let you render a _single tile of a | single frame_ if it has more texture-memory as inputs | than one of your GPUs has VRAM. | | Right now, consumer GPUs top out at 32GB of VRAM. The M1 | Max has, in a sense, 64GB (minus OS baseline overhead) of | VRAM for its GPU to use. | | Of course, there is " _an_ nvidia gpu " that can bench | more than the M1 Max: the Nvidia A100 Tensor Core GPU, | with 80GB of VRAM... which costs $149,000. | | (And even then, I should point out that the leaked Mac | Pro M1 variant is apparently 4x larger _again_ -- i.e. it | 's probably available in a configuration with _256GB_ of | unified memory. That 's getting close to "doing the | training for GPT-3 -- a 350GB model before optimization | -- on a single computer" territory.) | jjcon wrote: | Memory != Speed | | You could throw a TB of memory in something and it won't | get any faster or be of any use for 99.99% of use cases. | | Large ML architectures don't need more memory, they need | distributed processing. Ignoring memory requirements, | GPT-3 would take hundreds of years to train on a single | high end GPU (on say a desktop 3090 which is >10x faster | than m1) which is why they aren't trained that way (and | why NVidia has the offerings set up the way they do). | [deleted] | spacedcowboy wrote: | I'm looking forward to playing BG3 on mine :) | ryanjodonnell wrote: | Is it optimized for mac? | spacedcowboy wrote: | There's a native ARM binary :) You can choose the x86 or | ARM binary when you launch, and they're actually separate | apps. That's how they get around the Steam "thou shalt | only run x86 applications" mandate. | fnord77 wrote: | > Compared to those older CPUs, the M1 Max is a huge leap | forward. | | Is it, though? Its single-core score is roughly 2x that of | the top CPU Apple put in the mid-2012 macbook pro. 2x after | 10 years doesn't seem that great to me. | | Maybe that's more of an indictment against intel | baybal2 wrote: | > were stuck on relatively outdated x86-64 CPUs. | | We came to a point when X86 is faster to emulate, than to run | on a more modern microarchitecture. | | One point is clear: per-transistor performance of X86 is | dimishing with each new core generation, and it is already | losing to M1. | | X86 makers will not be able to keep up for long. They will | have to keep releasing bigger, and hotter chips to keep | parity, until they cannot. | e40 wrote: | Really curious to see what chips will go into the Mac Pro | line next year (year after?). Will they be faster than the | AMD desktop/workstation chips when they come out? | lewantmontreal wrote: | Has there been any research to OS response times between Macos, | Windows and Linux? | | Ive wanted to switch to Mac many times, most recently to M1 Mac | Mini, but cant get over the frustrating slowness. Every action, | like opening Finder, feels like it takes so long compared to | Windows even with reduce animation on. I always end up | returning the mac. | factorialboy wrote: | M1 is, compared to precious editions of Macbooks, much better. | | My two year old Linux desktop is a beast compared to my M1 | Macmini. But I love the Macmini compared to my 2019 MBP. | jokethrowaway wrote: | This is easily explained. Linux distributions don't make money | if you buy a new laptop. | zitterbewegung wrote: | I have had the opposite experience. Whenever a update to a | kernel comes out for Ubuntu my machine apparently forgets which | kernel to choose and boots up incorrectly. My M1 MacBook Air | drives a Pro Display XDR without any hiccups. Its completely | silent when I work with it. But, performance wise the M1 Pro | and Max don't seem like they would be worth it for me to | upgrade from the M1 at all. I just want a completely silent | laptop and it makes a huge difference to me. | | But, my workflows and workloads are slowly changing from local | compilation of code to one where I will probably just SSH and | or possibly figure out how to configure RDP into my | Threadripper when I do actual builds and have my Macbook Air M1 | with 16GB of Ram and the synergy with other Apple devices is a | huge plus. | | Have you talked with Apple to get a replacement? | littlestymaar wrote: | I share the same feeling, and I'm glad to learn I'm not alone: | earlier this year I worked for a (really) sort time with a | company who gave me a Macbook M1, which I was pretty excited | about. | | Over the course of the two weeks I worked there, I faced: | | - frequent glitches when unplugging the HDMI adaptor (an Apple | one, which costed an arm and a leg). | | - non-compatible software (Docker, Sublimetext) | | - and even a Kernel Panic while resuming from hibernation | | It was like working with Linux in the 2000's, but at least with | Linux I knew it was gonna be a bit rough on the edges. Given | the hype found online, I wasn't at all prepared for such an | experience. | markdown wrote: | M1 is hardware. Ubuntu is software. | | Your comparison makes no sense. | babypuncher wrote: | The Mac Mini isn't super impressive, because you're comparing | it to desktops where TDP is far less of a concern. | | The M1 is getting a lot of attention because it's Apple's first | laptop chip, and it is the fastest chip in that category by a | fairly significant margin. Chips from Intel and AMD only | compete with it on performance when drawing considerably more | power. | pgib wrote: | I went from a 2016 top-of-the-line MacBook Pro to an M1 Mac | mini, and I can't believe how much faster things are-including | Docker with Rails, PostgreSQL, etc. Out of curiosity, are you | running native (arm64) containers? Aside from an issue now and | then with my secondary HDMI display, my machine has continued | to blow me away. My development environment is almost on par | with our production environment, which is a nice change. | jinto36 wrote: | Not particularly defending the M1, but it might be that much of | what you're using so far isn't available native and is going | through Rosetta2? The other issues could be OS issues, but | maybe it would be worth doing a RAM test? | vineyardmike wrote: | Disclaimer, I don't have an M1 Mac, but I do have a buggy | ubuntu desktop and used Macs my whole technical life. | | It seems that you're heavily in the minority with this. Even | the weird bugs you mention are very unexpected. I've used a Mac | for 15 years and never heard of an issue related to thumb | drives. You may just have a lemon. See if you can just replace | it (warranty, etc, not just spending more money). | jandrese wrote: | It's hardly unheard of for a Mac to pick up weird issues. My | wife's Macbook has a thing where the mouse cursor will just | disappear when she wakes the thing up from sleep. Poking | around on the internet finds other people with the same | problem and no good solution (zapping PRAM doesn't help, | neither did a full OS reinstall). It's just a live with it | affair. The only fix is to close the lid and open it again, | which isn't too bad but the issue crops up multiple times in | a day and is quite annoying. | | I manage a bunch of Ubuntu desktops at work and the most | common issue seems to be that if you leave a machine alone | for too long (a week or two), then when you log back in the | DBUS or something seems to get hung up and the whole | interface is mostly unusable until you log out and log back | in. It can be so bad you can't even focus a window anymore or | change the input focus. Next most common issue is DKMS | randomly fucking up and installing a kernel without the | nVidia or VirtualBox modules leaving the machine useless. | thenthenthen wrote: | Well if you actually do 'work' with the device, like | installing software thats not in the appstore you might run | into some troubles...i love my 2013 macbook air for most | daily tasks, but never was there a time where i couldnt do | with having a windows and linux device on hand. But yeah, | thats just life. Happy to see sobering comment here that the | m1 is a 'mobile' processor, my 12 year old pc agrees. Another | question that came to mind is; what professional is gonna | edit ProRes video while commuting? Is this the ultimate | precarious labour creative industry machine?! | jacurtis wrote: | I have both, and use both everyday. | | I use an M1 MacBook Pro (16Gb Ram) for personal projects and | as my standard home/travel computer. It is amazing and fast. | | I use a Lenovo Carbon X1 Laptop with similar specs (i5, 16Gb | Ram, m.2 ssd) for work that runs RHEL 8 (Red Hat Enterprise | Linux). It's insanely fast and stable. | | The overhead to run RHEL is so small it would blow your mind | at the performance you get from almost nothing. Mac or | Windows are crazy bloated by comparison. I know I am sparking | an eternal debate by saying this, but I personally have never | found Ubuntu to be as stable for a workstation (but ubuntu | server is great) as RHEL is. | | With that being said, I still think the M1 mac is the best | computer I have ever owned. While linux is great for work, I | personally enjoy the polished and more joyful experience of | Mac for personal use. There are a million quality of life | improvements that Mac offers that you won't get in Linux. The | app ecosystem on mac is incredible. | | When most people make comparisons for the M1 Mac, they are | comparing windows PCs (generally Intel-based ones since Mac | previously used Intel) and they compare intel-based Macs. I | have never seen someone comparing it to linux performance. | The speed of the M1 mac is far better than Windows and far | better than old Macs. There is no question. Before my M1 mac | I used a MacBook Pro with an i7, 16Gb RAM, and the upgraded | dedicated graphics card. The little M1 MacBook outshines it | at least 2 to 1. Best of all, the fans never turned on, and | my old MacBook Pro had constant fan whine which drove me | crazy. | | The other incredible feat of the M1 Mac is the battery life. | I run my laptop nearly exclusively on battery power now. I | treat it like an iPad. You plug it in when it gets low, but I | can use it for about a week between charges (I use it for 2-3 | hours each day). I don't turn the screen down or modify my | performance. I keep the screen fairly bright and just cruise | away. I love it. | | While Linux might be able to outshine on performance, it | doesn't outperform with battery. My Lenovo laptop is worth | about 2x my MacBook Pro. It is a premium laptop and yet | running RHEL I will be lucky to get 6 hours. Compare that to | ~20 hours of my MacBook. | jandrese wrote: | Downside of RHEL is the package repo is anemic and out of | date. Sometimes horribly out of date. It's hardly uncommon | to run into some issue with an application and then look it | up online and find out that the fix was applied 8 versions | after the one that's in the repo. | | Worse is when you start grabbing code off of Git and the | configure script bombs out because it wants a library two | versions ahead of the one in the repo. But you don't want | to upgrade it because obviously that's going to cause an | issue with whatever installed that library originally. So | now you're thinking about containers but that adds more | complication... | | Like everything it is a double edged sword. | amelius wrote: | My colleague has an M1 Mac. I have a Ubuntu desktop. My | colleague always asks me to transcode videos on my machine | because on her MacBook it is too slow. | smoldesu wrote: | Just my N=1 anecdata, but I'm in the same boat. I got a | Macbook Air from work, and I have a hard time using it | compared to my Linux setup (which is saying something, since | I'm using a Torvaldsforsaken Nvidia card). Here's a list of | the issues I can recall off the top of my head: | | - High-refresh displays cause strange green/purple | artifacting | | - Plugging in multiple displays just outright doesn't work | | - Still a surprisingly long boot time compared to my x201 | (almost a teenager now!) | | - No user replaceable storage is a complete disservice when | your OEM upgrades cost as much as Apple charges | | - Idle temps can get a little uncomfortable when you're | running several apps at once | | ...and the biggest one... | | - A lot of software just isn't ready for ARM yet | | Maybe I'm spoiled, coming from Arch Linux, but the software | side of things on ARM still feels like they did in 2012 when | my parents bought me a Raspberry Pi for Christmas. Sure it | works, but compatibility and stability are still major | sticking points for relatively common apps. Admittedly, Apple | did a decent job of not breaking things any further, but | without 32-bit library support it's going to be a hard pass | from me. Plus, knowing that Rosetta will eventually be | unsupported gives me flashbacks to watching my games library | disappear after updating to Catalina. | katbyte wrote: | yep. if things don't work contact apple support they are | actually pretty decent. i had a lemon mini, randomly would go | into a bootloop after os updates - had a bad mainboard so | apple replaced it and it's been fine since. | lambdapsyc wrote: | Easy, it is likely docker that is making your Mac mini slower | than your old linux box? | | Docker on macOS is painfully slow, because it is implemented on | macOS through what amounts to a sledgehammer to the problem. | Docker depends on linux kernel features so on macOS it just | starts a linux virtual machine and does other high overhead | compatibility tricks to get it to work. Volumes are the biggest | culprit. | | If you are running docker through rosetta... (don't know the | state of docker on apple silicon) then that is a double whammy | of compatibility layers. | | Regarding bugs, yeah probably teething issues because the M1 | was/is such a large departure from the norm. They should really | get those things fixed pronto. | ArchOversight wrote: | Docker for Mac Desktop supports the M1 and uses an Linux VM | that is ARM. | | It is not using Rosetta 2 at all. | johncolanduoni wrote: | But if you run x86 images, it will use qemu's software | emulation inside the Linux VM (which is quite slow). | sliken wrote: | Well switching hardware and OS makes it hard to tell what's | responsible for the difference. I also suspect Docker and | what's running in the containers might well be x86 code instead | of native. | | I can tell you that I have a high end mbp 16" intel-i9 with | 32GB ram and it feels much slower than a new mac M1 mini. My | intel-i9 runs the fan card during backups (crashplan), video | conferencing, and sometimes just because even just outlook. The | M1 mini on the other hand has been silent, fast, and generally | a pleasure to use. | | Doubling the number of fast cores, doubling (or quadrupling) | the GPU and memory bandwidth should make the new MBP 14 and 16" | even better. | localhost wrote: | I have a three-year old hand-built 16-core ThreadRipper 1950X | machine here with 64GB 4-channel RAM. I have a 14" MBP M1 Max | on order. I just checked the Geekbench scores between these two | machines: M1 Max: 1783 single-core | 12693 | multi-core 1950X: 901 single-core | 7409 multi-core | | That's a big difference that I'm looking forward to. | | Also, just checked memory bandwidth. I have 80GB/s memory | bandwidth [1] on my 1950X. The MBP has 400GB/s memory | bandwidth. 5x(!) | | [1] https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/ryzen_threadripper/1950x | | *EDIT adding memory bandwidth. | plandis wrote: | What are the specs on your Ubuntu machine? | spamizbad wrote: | The answer is M1 is a great chip held back by a mediocre OS. | Containers and certain other applications are just going to run | faster on Linux, which has had a ton of performance tuning put | into it relative to MacOS. | throwaway894345 wrote: | That's Docker for Mac versus native Docker. Docker only runs on | Linux, so Docker for Mac spins up a linux VM to run your | containers. When you mount your Ruby or Python projects into | your containers, Docker for Mac marshals tons of filesystem | events over the host/guest boundary which absolutely devastates | your CPU. | | Docker for Mac is really just bad for your use case. | | No idea what's going on with the thumb drive, bluetooth, etc. | | Beyond that, it's a little silly to compare a desktop | (presumably many times larger, ~500+W power supply, cooling | system, etc) with a Mac mini (tiny, laptop chip, no fans, etc). | mvanbaak wrote: | > Docker for Mac is really just bad for your use case. Nah, | not just for mac, docker is really just bad. period ;P | shados wrote: | > Beyond that, it's a little silly to compare a desktop | (presumably many times larger, ~500+W power supply, cooling | system, etc) with a Mac mini (tiny, laptop chip, no fans, | etc). | | You're totally right, but I see a lot of folks around me | making absolutely bonker claims on these M1 devices. If I | believed everything I'm told, I'd be expecting them to run | complex After Effect rendering at 10000 frames per second. | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | > _You 're totally right, but I see a lot of folks around | me making absolutely bonker claims on these M1 devices._ | | What "but"? The claims are less bonkers with a perspective | that acknowledges the significance of those physical | differences. | | Without the case, would the full internals | (motherboard/CPU/GPU/PSU/ram/heatsinks/storage) of your | desktop fit in your pants pockets? Because the M1 Mac | Mini's fit in mine. | | How much fan noise does your desktop produce? How much | electricity does it consume? M1s are fast compared to | almost everything, but they're bonkers fast compared to | anything getting even remotely close to 20 hours on a | battery at 3 lbs weight. | amelius wrote: | > You're totally right, but I see a lot of folks around me | making absolutely bonker claims on these M1 devices. | | Fake news happens on HN too. Apparently. Sadly. | | Hopefully it's mostly limited to discussions about Apple. | alwillis wrote: | I think that's disingenuous. I haven't seen any claims that | haven't been backed up by benchmarks and specific use | cases. | | What most people keep missing is the M1 jumped out way | ahead on performance per watt _on their first attempt at | making their own processor_. | | I've seen the M1 Mac for less than $700. In that price | range, there's not much competition when it comes to | computation, GPU performance, etc. and comes fairly close | to much higher priced x86 Macs and PCs. | | That's why people are excited about the M1. You generally | can't edit 4k (and 8k) video in real-time on a machine in | this price range--and what people happily paid 5x that | price to get this level of performance just a few years | ago. | alwillis wrote: | Let's review: "Black. Magic. Fuckery."-- | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25202147 | dubcanada wrote: | Seems like your computer may have issues, you shouldn't be | crashing from USB devices. Sounds like you should go get it | checked out tbh. | thenthenthen wrote: | Well could just be a software issue, for example if you | installed the wrong CH430x driver to run your faux arduino | clones (that didnt pay debt to ftdi) you might run into this | issue. | jiveturkey wrote: | Probably more to do with bug sir than the hardware. Catalina is | pretty solid. | lostlogin wrote: | I hadn't heard that one. I had some pain, but I can laugh | now. | chrisco255 wrote: | My AMD / Nvidia laptop running Ubuntu has had a number of | issues from flash crashes to freeze ups to external monitor | connectivity that have progressively gotten better as the | drivers were updated. It is likely the drivers are buggy and | will probably improve with time. | merrvk wrote: | Put the same thing in a fanless laptop, that seems to last | forever on a charge, then you'll understand | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Meh. The M1 is a node ahead and memory is placed on package. | I'm trying not to be dazzled by the tech when it comes at the | price of freedom. | outside1234 wrote: | Ok - I get that comment for iPhone - but what is less free | about the Mac vs. a PC? | y4mi wrote: | docker is a second-class citizen on anything but linux. i'm | especially amazed you bothered with the m1 mac mini if you | wanted to use docker, considering how little memory it has. the | memory overhead of having a VM running with only 8GB available | is significant. | | yes, i know the docker on mac has "native" support for the m1 | cpu, that doesn't mean its not running a VM. | jacurtis wrote: | Yeah people forget that Docker is built to run on Linux. That | is why it exists. You deploy your containers onto a Linux | host that runs docker for containerization, that is the | point. | | The reason we have Docker for Windows and Mac is so that | developers can emulate the docker environment for testing and | building purposes. But ultimately it is expected that you | will take your container and eventually deploy it on Linux. | So Docker will always be a second class citizen on these | other OS's because it is just there for emulation purposes. | mikhailt wrote: | Many folks are comparing it to previous Macs with macOS, not | PCs nor other distros. | | If you have an Intel Mac next to it, there's a clear noticeable | difference assuming macOS is on it. | | If you put W10 on the Intel Mac, it is much faster than macOS | on it (from my own experience). If we could run W10 or Linux on | M1, it will be much faster than Intel Mac. | | Another example, Windows 10/11 on ARM in Parallels on my MBA m1 | is much faster than Surface Pro X, a MS-tuned/customized | device. | vmception wrote: | For me, all the gains from a W10 running faster than MacOS | are lost because I have to immediately go into control panel | to fix everything. Those fast computers are waiting on me to | improve the user experience most of the time. I'm personally | not really splitting hairs over much longer running processes | if I have to walk away anyway. | EugeneOZ wrote: | I'm comparing Windows PC (i7-6700k, nvme) with MBA m1 and MBA | is noticeable faster in just everything. Compilation time of | JS and Java code is literally 2 times faster on MBA M1 than | on desktop i7 CPU. | EugeneOZ wrote: | for those who downvote the facts they don't want to know | about: https://twitter.com/eugeniyoz/status/140751857088881 | 0497?s=2... | ry4nolson wrote: | nobody is arguing with your facts, just that your | comparison is apples and oranges since the i7 6700k was | released 5+ years ago. | munchbunny wrote: | Isn't the i7-6700k 3-4 generations older at this point than | the m1? | rahimnathwani wrote: | i7-6700k is 6 years old. The current equivalent i7 | (i7-11700k) is almost 2x as fast when using all cores. | ricardobeat wrote: | If the latest gen, top cpu is "almost 2x as fast" it will | still lose to the parent's "literally 2 times faster" M1. | While using 4x more power. | rahimnathwani wrote: | Right but GP's main points were: | | - noticeable faster in just everything | | - literally 2 times faster [compiling code] | | Neither of these statements is true when comparing | against the latest generation, which is the relevant | comparison. | | The power thing is true, but irrelevant to GP's point and | my objection to it. | wging wrote: | That hardware is from 2015, though. A fairer comparison | would be to current gen Intel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wik | i/List_of_Intel_Core_i7_processo... | jccalhoun wrote: | I've never owned a mac and I've never used an M1 so take this | with a heavy grain of salt. Everyone I've seen talk about how | fast the M1 is were coming from 4-5+ year old macs not | comparing them to intel/amd chips that came out last year in a | similar price range. | websap wrote: | Currently typing this on an m1 laptop that I bought 2 weeks | back. This machine blows my 16 inch Macbook out of the water. | My 16 inch Macbook is pretty well spec'd, but this laptop is | something else. | celsoazevedo wrote: | - https://web.archive.org/web/20211020175422if_/https://browse... | | - https://archive.md/zQAC3 | busymom0 wrote: | For someone with more knowledge- are these scores dependant on | the OS? Like would it have different scores if it ran Linux? | timbit42 wrote: | On macos, if you are running some x64 apps, they are jit'ed and | emulated. On Linux, all your repo and manually compiled apps | will be compiled for the native CPU so it would be fast. | launchiterate wrote: | So can someone build a mini cloud service with these machines? | reacharavindh wrote: | What did I miss? Dell XPS 15 with intel CPU has way higher | scores... is Geekbench not capable of working correctly on Apple | Silicon? | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/16376678 | joshstrange wrote: | Is that a legitimate GB score for that machine? Searching for | scores from that machine gives me: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=XPS+15+9510 | | Which shows score much lower than the linked test (maybe I'm | missing something). Likewise unless it's coming from someone | like AnandTech I'm skeptical of any benchmarks for the M1 | Pro/Max until these machines are actually released next week. | [deleted] | mrbuttons454 wrote: | That's a v4 score, which can't be compared to a v5 score. | [deleted] | rokobobo wrote: | I think you're looking at a geekbench 4 score, vs v5 in the | post. It seems that this machine performs significantly better | than an XPS 15. | [deleted] | unicornfinder wrote: | That's a Geekbench v4 score, which isn't comparable to a | Geekbench v5 score. | | You can see the same laptop on Geekbench v5 here, where it | scores much, much lower than the M1: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10506812 | jkeddo wrote: | I think there is a big variance in XPS 17 scores. For | reference, here is a top scoring XPS 17. In this case, scores | are much closer. | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10481116?baseli. | .. | jjcm wrote: | For those that can't load and are curious, the M1 Max scores | about 2x the Intel Core i7-11800H in the Dell laptop on both | single core and multi core scores. | jkeddo wrote: | I don't think that was a good sample, most of the XPS 15's | I see have a much higher single thread score, almost double | the one linked above: | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10491562 | snuser wrote: | It looks like the original as been updated, the | differences don't seem very drastic especially when you | consider what the SKU's w/ the m1 max cost | | guess it's about a 1.5-2x difference in battery life | though | smoldesu wrote: | It also costs twice as much, so I should hope I'm getting | something for the money. | minimaul wrote: | You're comparing Geekbench 4 and 5 scores - you can't do that. | It's a different scale. | | Here's an example of a Geekbench 5 score: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10501477 | lalaithion wrote: | Here's the actual Dell XPS 17 vs MacBook Pro: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10502109?baseli... | jkeddo wrote: | That might be a lemon XPS 17. With a higher scoring XPS 17, | the benchmark is much closer: | | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10481116?baseli. | .. | throwawaybanjo1 wrote: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10501477 V5 score for that | judge2020 wrote: | Comparison for that https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/comp | are/10501477?baseli... | petecooper wrote: | Geekbench 4 and Geekbench 5 are different scales. | | Edit: about 5 people beat me. | biosed wrote: | Compared to my gen 1 M1 macbook pro: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10514397?baseli... | hammock wrote: | Single core regular M1 Macbook about the same. Multicore the Max | is a lot higher. | hbOY5ENiZloUfnZ wrote: | It should be about the same. It is the same micro-architecture | which is why they are still called M1. There are just more of | the same cores. | tyingq wrote: | Looks not the same to me: | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10508124?baseli... | | Did I pick the wrong regular M1 Macbook? | | Edit: Hmm. | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/10508059?baseli... | | I guess Geekbench is a little unpredictable? | | And it looks like HN is pushing their capacity... | hammock wrote: | Hmm not sure what I was looking at before, that site is not | the easiest to navigate. | tyingq wrote: | My second link shows what you're talking about. I'm not | sure which result to trust. | smoldesu wrote: | Geekbench has always been a little unpredictable. It was most | famously skewed quite heavily in Apple's favor before | Geekbench 4, and even the modern scores are pretty opaque. | I'd wait to see real-world performance metrics out of it. | dzink wrote: | A few days ago there were comments on HN that the Geekbench score | on M1 Max was run on an operating system not optimized for M1. | Has that changed with this one? | [deleted] | simonebrunozzi wrote: | Wondering if some of the avid videogamers, in need for powerful | GPUs, will consider Macbook Pros with M1 Pro or Max as a good | option. | | AFAIK, some of the most popular videogames run on Mac too. | lghh wrote: | Some, but not nearly enough. | mhh__ wrote: | Almost none of the most popular actually. No Fortnite no | warzone | DisjointedHunt wrote: | I'm not sure how Geekbench browser tests hold up to real world | usage, but note that Apples ecosystem is WAY different compared | to x86. | | For starters, the chip isn't general purpose compute, it's more | of an ASIC that is optimized to run the OS abstractions available | through the official APIs (Think on screen animation such as | rendering an image or detecting things in it. On x86, you | implement the code and in some cases, proprietary libraries such | as Intels MKL make it seemingly faster to run. On Apple Silicon, | for such common use cases there are DEDICATED chip areas. Thus, | an ASIC) | lostmsu wrote: | I will get one if it can run Windows and nothing comparable | released by then. | louwrentius wrote: | The single core performance is still the same as the M1, so | frankly, for a laptop that's awesome, but I wish single core | performance could hit the AMD Ryzen scores. | gjsman-1000 wrote: | Depends what benchmark you ask. According to Passmark, the M1 | is the best single core CPU no question. | musesum wrote: | Compared to my Mid 2018 6 core i9 2.9Gz | | 1.62x single core 2.70x multi core (10 vs 6 cores) 2x to 3x | faster on ML and Graphics | | Hopefully, less power and no more false positives on the taskbar. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-10-20 23:00 UTC)