[HN Gopher] EU Chatcontrol 2.0 [video] ___________________________________________________________________ EU Chatcontrol 2.0 [video] Author : nix23 Score : 366 points Date : 2021-11-01 14:21 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (peertube.european-pirates.eu) (TXT) w3m dump (peertube.european-pirates.eu) | luciusdomitius wrote: | This is really interesting coming from the Pirate Party. While I | remember them for the protests against ACTA some 12 years ago, | their biggest success - the Czech Pirate party is extremely pro- | Brussels and has hardly breathed a word against it. | | Otherwise, my opinion is that this would be either impossible to | enforce or the cost to do so would outweigh the benefits in a | massive way. | emteycz wrote: | The Czech pirate party was built on internal democracy without | any failsafety and got swathed by hundreds (thousands today) of | leftists/statists indifferent to the original ideas. | | Basically none of their voting base (young adults, mostly) has | any idea about the origin of the party. They were lured to the | party because it supports green and social statist politics. | | Note: I don't think statism in itself is wrong, but I don't | like the particular kind of state they're pushing for. I think | their goals could be accomplished by supporting people more | directly e. g. by supporting independent social organizations, | which I think would be more in line with the original pirate | ideas. | | However I must say that their latest program (for the | parliamentary elections) was acceptable to me. But they're | nearly (4/200) out of the parliament now. | petre wrote: | My problem with the Pirate Party is that they are part of the | Greens group = anti nuclear activists, let alone not being | represented at all in my country. I'd probably vote for them | even ignoring this, because at least if feels like choosing | the lesser of several evils. Voting is like choosing between | the four horsemen of the apocalypse. | emteycz wrote: | Thankfully that's not shared by the Czech pirate party. | They're pro-nuclear here. However, nearly everyone is pro- | nuclear here. | | I think the Czech nuclear program is successful mostly | thanks to Dana Drabova. Other countries need to find | someone like her. | dane-pgp wrote: | A technology which requires exceptional people for it to | be managed successfully should not be a technology that | puts centuries-long commitments on society. | emteycz wrote: | I strongly disagree. The specialists exist and the | benefit is too large to be ignored. | effie wrote: | Why not, we will always have exceptional people. I don't | get this lack of ambition. | sputr wrote: | Most Pirate Parties are pro-nuclear. But they are part of | the Green group because it's the closes match you'll get. | | They would like to form their own group, but they don't | have enough pirates elected from enough countries yet to | qualify. So they're stuck with going with the best option. | | Besides, as long as greens and pirates share the same goal | ... the'll work out the rest. This way the greens may move | away from the anti nuclear stance quicker. | kebman wrote: | A friend of mine was the leader of the Norwegian Pirate | Party. He proposed a new way to organize society in a | decentralized, professionalized, yet accountable way. His | main issue was that politicians would promise a bunch of | nonsense, and then get voted in based upon those promises, | but after the fact they would never do anything about it. | Even after breaking all the promises, most politicians never | have to answer for lying or not accomplishing what got them | into a position in the first place. One of the concrete tools | he alluded to when speaking about these flaws was the | FixMyStreet app and website. | TulliusCicero wrote: | While this is true, some of it is because voters are | ignorant and prefer politicians who lie to them. Oh sure, | they'll _say_ they want honest politicians, but then the | ones who promise them the moon are the ones they 'll | actually vote for. Someone telling them, "sorry but your | policy idea is hideously impractical and would be extremely | expensive for little benefit" won't get their vote, even if | it's true. | kebman wrote: | I think it's a bit more complex than that. I'm sure most | voters have a real hope that their politician is actually | speaking the truth. And sometimes the politician is even | honest about wanting to make it happen. But then comes | the intricacies of parliamentary constellations, | horsetrading, lobbyism, and filibustering, and so forth. | PontifexMinimus wrote: | > But they're nearly (4/200) out of the parliament now. | | According to Wikipedia, the Pirates and Mayors group got | 15.6% of the vote at the last election last month and has 37 | seats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Czech_legislative_e | lectio... | | Is that not correct? | emteycz wrote: | Yes. But 33 seats are gained by the other party due to | mechanism known as circling, which allows voters to give up | to four preferential votes to specific candidates. The | Majors Party is based around this "circling". For example, | candidates from 10th place were voted in - in regions with | 3/4/5 seats. | | The coalition agreement aimed to resolve this issue but | failed. | bojan wrote: | > the Czech Pirate party is extremely pro-Brussels and has | hardly breathed a word against it. | | I find "pro-" or "anti-" Brussels to be a false dichotomy. You | can be _for_ the existence of the EU, but be critical of how it | works, of the proposals coming from one of its institutions, | and actively participate in improving the organisation. | | Which is exactly what this MEP is doing. | raverbashing wrote: | Of course, and might I add, this is how institutions should | work. | [deleted] | m4rtink wrote: | >This is really interesting coming from the Pirate Party. While | I remember them for the protests against ACTA some 12 years | ago, their biggest success - the Czech Pirate party is | extremely pro-Brussels and has hardly breathed a word against | it. | | Well, Marcel Kolaja, who was voted from the Czech Pirate Party | to the european parliament certainly comments on these things - | like on an earlier round for this in July: | | https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcont... | | He is in generally pretty active also in other important topics | such as content filters or gatekeepers and other stuff: | | https://european-pirateparty.eu/tag/marcel-kolaja/ | | As for the Pirate Party being "pro Brussels" it rather seem to | to that they are ready to get involved in EU matters & possibly | improve things. | | Other parties anti-EU rhetoric is often not very constructive | and populist, especially if the EU calls then on their shady | deals. | FerretFred wrote: | I agree with your opinion, but we're talking the EU here .. | cost and red tape will not be an issue, so it'll happen. | raverbashing wrote: | The issue is important and needs to be discussed (both sides - | which doesn't mean solving it at the 'chat level' is the right | answer, of course). And I'm glad the Pirates "get" the internet. | But the fud is getting old | | Realistically, targeted chat grooming on a major platform does | end with responsibility over the platform. If the system is BS | then it should be trivial to get the chat of any of the | politicians involved in approving this. But from the past | proposals, it doesn't look like that is "too trivial". | | While technical folks think the tech world is untouchable by laws | the legislative folks think everything is "perfectly" amenable to | legislation and of course they're both wrong and the truth lies | somewhere in the middle. | | The most likely end result is that messaging for minors might | have the monitoring (but remember Google, FB, etc already do this | in a way). And of course even if it passes this is amenable to | ECJ appeals, etc. | tytrdev wrote: | 1. GDPR | | 2. Intercept and scan all civilian communication | | 3. ??? | | 4. Yellowstone explodes | intricatedetail wrote: | I remember talking about such scenario like decade ago and people | were telling me I am a conspiracy theorist and the EU would never | do something like this as it breaches human rights. I guess it's | too late now. Too much money and powerful people involved. | AnssiH wrote: | EU has still not done it (yet, anyway). This is not an actual | legislative proposal of any kind. | marcodiego wrote: | The fact that the video is posted using peertube gives me a | breath of hope. | | Considering how it is currently not very popular, I don't have | high hopes that this video will last longer than it could be had | it been posted on youtube. Nevertheless, this is a step in the | right direction. | dang wrote: | Related from a few months ago: | | _Messaging and chat control_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28115343 - Aug 2021 (317 | comments) | | via pvg, prof-dr-ir (thanks!): | | _EU Parliament approves mass surveillance of private | communications_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 - | July 2021 (11 comments) | | _European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private | communication_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 - | July 2021 (415 comments) | | _Indiscriminate messaging and chatcontrol: Last chance to | protest_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435 - July | 2021 (104 comments) | | _IT companies warn in open letter: EU wants to ban encryption_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 - April 2021 (217 | comments) | | Others? | pvg wrote: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435 | prof-dr-ir wrote: | _IT companies warn in open letter: EU wants to ban encryption_ | - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 - April 2021 | (217 comments) | no_time wrote: | Is it really a democracy if you keep pushing the same legislation | over and over again until the people sleep on it once? | sputr wrote: | Yes, yes it is. | | The problem is, that we (as in, "not the rich and powerful") | are not playing the game of democracy correctly. | | Protesting to stop a bill passing is the "you f-ed up, so | you're panicking, and maybe you'll stop it" move. If it keeps | happening, it just means you did not learn your lesson. | | What you should have been doing is actively fighting to set | rules the way you want them. Both by electing the right people | and, more importantly, actually, funding lobbying efforts. | avgcorrection wrote: | Democracy is when the people in general have power. Not when | they are allowed (perhaps, begrudgingly) to demonstrate with | placards outside of the buildings that house/employ people | with power. | | Cite any reputable social science that says that democracy is | an actual thing implemented in liberal democracies. Then we | can take it from there. | | > actually, funding lobbying efforts. | | Billionaires and multi-millionaires will outspend your | gofundme lobbying. It's simple economics. | sputr wrote: | No, that's not what democracy is. That's what you want it | to be. | | And no, the rich can't outspend the population, if the | population realized what's happening. | | Not only is 10USD/EUR per month times the entire population | just an incredible amount of money ... it's way more | effective. | | Most damage from lobby happens because corporate lobbyist | are the only ones there. Just one publicly funded lobbyist | there to remind the decisions makers of what is right and | prevent their ability to rationalize would make an | incredible difference. | | But you need to pay that person. | chupy wrote: | _What you should have been doing is actively fighting to set | rules the way you want them.Both by electing the right people | and, more importantly, actually, funding lobbying efforts._ | | Maybe we should actively fight against the existence of lobby | groups. The lobby groups in most cases push for legislation | that is good for them (companies) and not for the people. | sputr wrote: | I hear what you are saying, but sadly that's like fighting | against democracy. Lobbying is a natural party of a | democratic system, just like political parties. You can try | and outlaw it, but you'll only make the problem way worse. | | And it's not inherently a problem. It's not even slanted | against the interests of the population. The only reason we | have a problem is because "the rich and powerful" | understand that this is how democracy works and everyone | else ... wishes it was different. | | The solution to just about all our problems is simple: stop | wanting democracy to be something it isn't and start | "using" it correctly - namely, realize that to HAVE power | you need to SPEND money. And no, taxes ain't it. | | The great thing is that "the people's" money is way more | effective (i.e. it's more expansive to get politicians to | do immoral acts than it is for them to do moral acts). | Plus, we have more of it (10EUR/USD per month times the | entire population is ... a lot of money). | | We just have to start. | A_non_e-moose wrote: | How do we, the "not the rich and powerful" fund lobbying | efforts, considering current competitors? | wolverine876 wrote: | Elect someone else | no_time wrote: | Not so simple since you only have one vote and politicians | have thousands of choices to make during their time in | office. | | I strongly oppose domestic spying laws like this, AND I | oppose uneducated immigration too. There is no party that | shares both of these views. | | In other words the current system will always boil down to | choosing between bad options that will screw you over some | way or another. I wish there was an alternative... | wolverine876 wrote: | 320 million other people deserve an equal say, so probably | you won't - and shouldn't - get exactly what you want (nor | should I). | | I don't like uneducated voters. | JumpCrisscross wrote: | > _I strongly oppose domestic spying laws like this, AND I | oppose uneducated immigration too. There is no party that | shares both of these views._ | | Democracy requires compromise. There will never be a party | that perfectly matches your views. You prioritize the ones | you care about, find common ground and help those who will | advance your interests. | A_non_e-moose wrote: | Direct democracy a la Switzerland where issues are put up | for vote for the entire population? | | Although for direct democracy to be effective you would | need a highly educated and politically engaged population | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | Judging by how low the vaccination rate is for rich and | developed Switzerland in comparison to poorer countries | like Spain or Portugal, I stopped assuming that most of | the population there is "highly educated" as you put it. | No offense to the Swiss. | | Maybe some Swiss can clarify why their population is so | anti-vax, as it boggles my mind. | | My point is not to say that such a direct democratic | system wouldn't be effective, I'm just saying that | correlation != causation, as in the case of Switzerland, | I attribute its success as a country more to it being a | neutral banking heaven for the world elite for decades | and being in a very fortunate geo-political location that | was spared the destruction of war which helped it attract | tons of foreign talent and capital, rather than to its | direct democratic system and domestic educated | population. I could also be wrong of course. | spidersouris wrote: | Switzerland has 64% of its population vaccinated [1]. | It's not that low compared to other Western countries. | It's as much as the United States [2]. What makes you say | that? | | [1] https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus- | tracker-and-m... | | [2] https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus- | tracker-and-m... | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | And where did I mention the US? | | Portugal is almost 100% vaccinated, Switzerland is at 64% | which puts it closer to the former comunist EU members | like Slovakia. | | That's a massive difference, and to me, says something | about the country's population/society. | mmdoda wrote: | I'm sorry but you are spreading misinformation. The Swiss | are not anti-vax in general and they are not against the | Covid vaccine. Switzerland is 63.7% vaccinated. | | In any case not getting the vaccine doesn't make someone | uneducated. Switzerland has some of the best schools and | universities in the world. In 2018, 44% of 25-64 year- | olds had completed a tertiary qualification in | Switzerland, compared to 39% on average across OECD | countries. [1] | | [1] https://www.oecd.org/education/education-at-a- | glance/EAG2019... | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> I'm sorry but you are spreading misinformation._ | | Which misinformation did I spread? | | _> Switzerland is 63.7% vaccinated._ | | Which I said I find it to be very low in comparison to | countries like Spain and Portugal where the rate is | nearly 100% so having only 64% points to a large number | of anti-vaxers similar to Eastern Europe. | | _> In any case not getting the vaccine doesn't make | someone uneducated._ | | No? Then what does it make the other 36% who refuse to | get vaccinated? En-masse refusal of a potentially life | saving vaccine that will help end the pandemic doesn't | really scream intelligence and education, does it? | monkeywork wrote: | creating your own definitions or metrics as to what would | qualify someone as educated isn't helpful in a | discussion. | | you are also making assumptions that those who aren't yet | vaccinated are anti-vax, which again isn't always the | case they may have their own reasons for delaying or | perhaps are perfectly fine with vaccines in general but | distrust this particular one for whatever reason. | | A person can be educated person can still be an | unreasonable one. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> they may have their own reasons for delaying or | perhaps are perfectly fine with vaccines in general but | distrust this particular one for whatever reason._ | | So what does the swiss population know that the | scientific and medical communities don't? | [deleted] | no_time wrote: | Yes something like that. I don't have high hopes of that | ever happening here (Hungary) though | squarefoot wrote: | Sometimes it's too late. The best dictator in the western | world isn't the one who sends the army down the streets to | shoot protesters, but the one who controls information so | that people after years of being dazed by the same propaganda | will vote him in power without any coercion. Sadly bad rulers | sometimes have more resources than good ones, which turns out | in more online/tv/radio/newspaper presence used to spread | their propaganda. | | If we could force somehow politicians to count on the same | exact public exposure, from rallies to apparently trivial | things such as tweets, that would possibly change something, | but to me a similar scenario in this universe is near science | fiction. | Abfrage wrote: | The election to the EU Parliament is a farce. The parliament | has no power. It cannot propose laws. It only votes on the | laws of the Commission. In the last election, the people | could elect the President of the Commission. The person | elected did not get the office. They simply put von der Leyen | in that position while she was investigated in the German | parliament. | wolverine876 wrote: | Having done a lot of work in politics, I see the same | things frequently: how easy it is for even a few people to | accomplish things with a little effort (and that's with a | level of organization and management that is shockingly low | - as in, if you have competent business skills, you'll walk | in and think 'this can't possibly be as bad as it looks'), | and then on the outside there are a lot of people calling | it a 'farce', saying it's hopeless, etc. etc. It's just | kind of silly, like people telling me heavier-than-air | flight is impossible. OK, if that's what you obviously want | to think. | | It's like the naysayers for anything, such as startups. 'It | doesn't work', 'it can't be done', 'nobody will _let_ you | ', blah blah blah. And all the time you are doing it. What | can you say to them? | pas wrote: | The power to veto is not a farce. | blibble wrote: | it is because the commission just has to bide its time | | once the law is passed future parliaments can't modify or | repeal it | pas wrote: | it doesn't depend on time. the parliament can reject it | every single time without it ever getting tired. | | and since the MEPs represent the same people who elect | governments who then delegate to the commission, it's | strange if the commission continues to propose | regulations that are unpopular. | blibble wrote: | you're thinking on a sub 5 year scale | | the commission can wait for a parliament that will pass | its legislation | | and once it's passed: that's it, future parliaments can | do nothing about it | | and if a member state wants it gone: it has to leave the | EU entirely | | and politically the commission is the same as it has | always been (by design) | pas wrote: | the commission does what the member states want. | obviously it has its own agency in the matters, but | members don't send someone who would totally disregard | their wishes. | | the whole problem with these security-privacy ideas is | that the member governments want to reign in the | Internet, just as they did with every other phenomena for | the past hundreds of years. (with varying degrees of | "success".) | | CSAM is especially a big red cloth that catches the eye | of governments. It's not like there was less child abuse | before the Internet, and if there were absolutely no CSAM | on it from tomorrow ther wouldn't be less actual abuse... | :/ | tsimionescu wrote: | > In the last election, the people could elect the | President of the Commission. | | What are you basing this on? The President of the | Commission is, by law, proposed by the European Council and | validated or not by the European Parliament. Since there | was no single majority party after the election, it's not | completely surprising that backroom deals led to a | different president than the desire of the party holding | the most seats. | 66fm472tjy7 wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_C | omm... | | > The Spitzenkandidat of the largest party would then | have a mandate to assume the Commission Presidency | | While this is not de jure, German-speaking media did | report on the 2019 election as if the above were | consensus. It is my understanding that this was not the | case in all EU countries. | pimterry wrote: | I agree the future proposed here would be totalitarian, but it's | important to be clear that today *this is not currently a | legislative proposal in the EU*. | | It's not been proposed, it's not being voted on, and it's not | coming into force any time soon. | | There are two things that have been proposed: | | 1. Adding a temporary exemption ('derogation') within privacy | regulations to ensure online service providers can scan user data | for CSAM _if the provider so chooses_ without being in breach of | GDPR. In the US and elsewhere, providers who wish to do were | already doing this. This just provides a quick fix to avoid GDPR | from shutting down existing service provider 's own child | protection programs. More details: | https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promo... | | 2. Asking the EU Commission to investigate and analyze possible | proposals for longer-term legislative solutions to this issue, by | defining more clearly what service providers options and | obligations are with regard to CSAM, and proposing various other | ways the EU could protect children from abuse offline & online. | | The EU's summary of the overall process is at | https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/internal-security... | (even more detail here: https://ec.europa.eu/home- | affairs/system/files/2020-07/20200...). The details of the | derogation regulations are at | https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promo..., | and there's more detail on the commission's ongoing analysis to | eventually define proposals here: | https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa... | | One _possibility_ is that the commission could propose | legislation mandating scanning of all messages and AI to | automatically search for grooming. Some parts of that legislative | option are mentioned as ideas to be considered (see the | "Inception impact assessment" PDF in the commissions analysis) | alongside various other options. There's nothing suggesting that | this is the leading option though. That PDF also makes detailed | note of privacy concerns as topics to consider too, and the | resulting public consultation on that specific assessment | received a huge amount of feedback against such measures. | | So far, there is no proposed legislation like what's described in | this video. If there were, it's likely that there would be major | public outcry, and there is no indication that it would pass. | | It's possible the commission could propose this, but it's also | very plausible that the commission proposes some other framework | of obligations, which makes it clear when and how online services | must scan for CSAM, without mandating searching of all private | communications. For example, mandating CSAM scanning of publicly | accessible content online, and mandating that private message | providers include "report this message" tools to allow users to | report otherwise inaccessible content by themselves. | | Of course, there is always the possibility that the EU could veer | away from privacy protections into being a totalitarian state, | sure, but nobody is currently proposing legislation along those | lines. There's a wide spectrum of reasonable possibilities on the | table here that would be genuine improvements. There's no need to | panic about the imminent death of privacy quite yet. | prof-dr-ir wrote: | Thank you for this clarification. This topic has been | previously discussed on HN and sadly the top comments seem to | always result in poorly informed pitchfork parties against the | EU and its institutions. | | I would urge people to read the linked texts in your comment. I | think they will see that it is entirely possible to follow the | (imperfect) thought process of the EU Commission from these | primary sources, since they are quite readable. | stinos wrote: | _So far, there is no proposed legislation like what 's | described in this video._ | | Any idea why the Breyer makes it sound like this is something | which is coming though? Or why he's even talking about it? | Aerroon wrote: | > _Of course, there is always the possibility that the EU could | veer away from privacy protections into being a totalitarian | state, sure, but nobody is currently proposing legislation | along those lines._ | | 15 years ago the EU made this into law: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive | | This _eventually_ didn 't hold up in court, but it pretty much | shows where the Union has been on the privacy scale right from | the start when it comes to governments doing the snooping. | skratlo wrote: | Does anyone know WHO is actually pushing this? Who is behind | this? Who initially proposed it, and who is lobbying for it? | Gimme names, c'mon | raverbashing wrote: | Ashton Kutcher. Yes, I'm serious. | AnssiH wrote: | See the Feedback section on the initiative | (https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your- | sa...) for various comments from various | organizations/companies, pushing for various things. | | As far as I can tell, no EU organ has actually published any | actual proposal or recommendation to introduce such mandatory | screening as described in the OP. | | My guess is that the actual proposal, when it comes, will not | include industrywide mandatory screening or breaking end-to-end | encryption. | mod50ack wrote: | These wr going to actually be proposed in the fall, but it | has now been pushed back to December. | dane-pgp wrote: | The intelligence agencies wouldn't be very good at their job if | you knew what they were up to, would they? | tasogare wrote: | At some point we'll have to go in Bruxelles & Strasbourg to "have | a talk" with those parliamentarians and reclaim our freedom. Is | this what they are searching for, to justify even harsher laws if | popular revolt fails? Or just harass even more political | opponents by finding them automatically? All this crap is not | gonna end well... | cure wrote: | It's not the parliament that is pushing this nonsense. It's the | European Commission, which is not directly elected, that is the | problem. | [deleted] | [deleted] | dahfizz wrote: | I wish you luck; without the right to bear arms you are going | to need it. | nix23 wrote: | https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/message-screening/ | say_it_as_it_is wrote: | Every bill in politics should include a reversion migration to | back out of when it fails to achieve the goal of the bill. If | this is for child porn protection, 12 months from now it should | be reversed when the technology gets used for other purposes. | LinuxBender wrote: | This likely affects most people world-wide given chat platforms | like Discord and Slack allow EU and non-EU citizens to chat with | each other. At least they are being up front about it and giving | people time to migrate to smaller self contained platforms. | christkv wrote: | I bet you the politicians and other EU crats will be exempt | because of "fill in bs reason". Only for the dirty evil plebs. | | We need P2P to come back and fast and make this hard to | impossible to do. | petre wrote: | Technology isn't going to fix corruption, bureaucracy and lack | of transparency. Yes, we can play with P2P crypto stuff until | they ban it and classify it as _firearms_. | jgilias wrote: | Going on a bit of a tangent here, but I would really prefer if | less people chose video as the medium to explain things. For me | at least it's markedly easier, quicker, and convenient to read | things. | Avalaxy wrote: | Yep. Currently sitting in a waiting room with other people. I | didnt bring headphones so have no way to consume this content. | notRobot wrote: | Did you take a look at the video description? | http://www.chatcontrol.eu/ | nix23 wrote: | The full text is in the the description of the video: | | More info: https://www.chatcontrol.eu | callen43 wrote: | From the publisher of the video (Patrick Breyer, member of the | European parliament) | | http://www.chatcontrol.eu/ | dang wrote: | Discussed not that long ago: | | _Messaging and chat control_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28115343 - Aug 2021 (317 | comments) | tomc1985 wrote: | You can thank gen Z and their enthusiastic refusal to read for | that | nix23 wrote: | I am 4 years older then you...young buddy. | tomc1985 wrote: | You're being snarky but the rise of video for basic info | transmission really bugs me. You even get these clowns | making videos of them typing into notepad! Like ffs get a | gd blogger account | shuntress wrote: | I agree that a concise and well-written statement will | typically be more efficient than a video of similar quality. | | But something about speaking to a camera seems to make it | easier for people to express their thoughts in a digestible | way. I tend to find that, for many topics, some random 5-10 | minute video of a person talking to the camera will tend to be | more informative than some random 5-10 paragraph article. | jimbob45 wrote: | >Previously secure end-to-end encrypted messenger services such | as Whatsapp or Signal would be forced to install a backdoor. [0] | | So as an American, are there any Euros that can enlighten me on | whether or not there remain any procedural hurdles left for this | to clear? Or is this being implemented in Signal as we speak? | | https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcont... | bojan wrote: | There are still quite some hurdles. The European Comission is | set to propose to make it mandatory, but the proposal will only | come in December (and has been already postponed a couple of | times due to the resistance). Then the European Parliament | needs to pass it. | | The fight is not over, and resisting legislation like this in | the past has provided results. I am hopeful. | laurent92 wrote: | The People shouldn't have to oppose what their leaders want. | Not in a democracy. The people should vote. | thomasahle wrote: | The leaders listen to what the people say too. If the only | people to speak up are the "we must do everything we can to | protect the children" people, and the "we must give the | police any tools they ask for", it's easy for the leaders | to forget about the rest. | laurent92 wrote: | Or the leaders listen to who pays them. The vocabulary of | listening or voting has faded away for the vocabulary of | "explaining" or "spreading awareness", in both of which | people are told what they should think. But they also | listen, to ensure their explanations are "understood". | [deleted] | [deleted] | blibble wrote: | the commission wouldn't have proposed it if they didn't think | they would be able to push through the vast majority of it | | and if they don't get it through this parliament they'll wait | until the next one, and so on | | and once it's passed: the parliament has no ability to alter | or undo it | AnssiH wrote: | But the commission has not actually proposed it, has it? | AnssiH wrote: | There is no actual concrete proposal at all yet, so this is | very far from passing in my opinion. (I think this is the | initiative: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better- | regulation/have-your-sa...) | | The article in your link ("Parliament approves chatcontrol") is | also misleading. What was actually passed in July 2021 was a | temporary 3-year restoration of pre-Dec-2020 rules that _allow_ | service providers to voluntarily scan for child abuse (news | release: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press- | room/20210701IP... , actual legal text: https://eur- | lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A...). Dec 2020 | privacy law changes would have otherwise prohibited voluntary | scanning. | nisegami wrote: | I would like to think Signal would simply not operate in the EU | in any official capacity if this were passed as written. | WhatsApp would definitely cave though. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | I mean, it's not that difficult for them to do this for the | EU. The EU can be like _" You guys know those back-doors you | put in for the CCP so they let you operate in China? Yeah, | those, just gives us a fork of exactly that and we're cool. | Maybe we'll also stop fining you every year for privacy | violations and such if you play ball. :wink-wink:"_ | hellojesus wrote: | Two questions: | | 1. If Signal does implement something like this, are they | under gag orders so wouldn't be able to inform users? | | 2. What if they simply don't comply? So long as they don't | have an office in the EU, is there anything that could be | done? Users could just side-load. | lixtra wrote: | > 2. What if they simply don't comply? So long as they | don't have an office in the EU, is there anything that | could be done? | | Signal would be banned from European appstores/IPs. | | > Users could just side-load. | | Yes. But that can be illegal. And is an option for only a | small part of the population. | hellojesus wrote: | This is really interesting to me. | | How could side-loading be illegal? It's just software. | | How would the state prevent vpns or tor users from | connecting to Signal servers? | | More importantly, what if users just use pgp in emails, | etc.? | megous wrote: | It can't. It's as simple as that. | | This is all just to catch people who don't know how the | technology works. | dane-pgp wrote: | > How could side-loading be illegal? It's just software. | | A government could start by demanding that all | smartphones sold in their territory disallow side- | loading. That's obviously already the case for iPhones, | and it would be a small "security update" to Android | phones to prevent side-loading. | | As apps can detect which firmware version your phone is | running, and whether the phone has been rooted, it's | possible for phones to send cryptographically secured | attestations to a government server that it is compliant | with this new rule. Mobile networks can then block the | IMEI numbers of phones which have side-loaded apps, or at | least limit them to only sending/receiving calls and | texts. | | That won't stop people using these chat services on | laptops, for example, but within a few years it will be | feasible to enforce a similar "trusted platform" | condition on those too. | lixtra wrote: | > How could side-loading be illegal? It's just software. | | Lawmakers have no problem making software illegal [1]. | | > How would the state prevent vpns or tor users from | connecting to Signal servers? | | They don't have to prevent a 100%. They may just decide | to police and punish. | | > More importantly, what if users just use pgp in emails, | etc.? | | The same stupid arguments about lawful access (=back | doors) [2] come up again and again. But that does not | ensure it won't become law some day. If users continue to | use secure tools above policing and punishing applies. | | [1] https://edri.org/our-work/edrigramnumber5-11germany- | bans-hac... | | [2] https://www.justice.gov/olp/lawful-access | hellojesus wrote: | Point taken. But it is beyond me why anyone would let | this type of law prevent them from encrypting their hard | drives and messages. | | I would gladly take on the state to fight for the right | to encrypt, but I'm American so I do understand my | culture significantly impacts that perspective. | feanaro wrote: | Furthermore, are we now banning decentralized chat | networks, where everyone can host their own node, like | Matrix? | thomasahle wrote: | > 1. If Signal does implement something like this, are they | under gag orders so wouldn't be able to inform users? | | I would guess not. At least if you mean gag-orders as used | in the US by NSA etc. | | That's because this would be a law, and not a "friendly | favor" asked for by the police. A law is at least under | public scrutiny in contrast to fisa orders etc. | | Another question is whether EU police already is issuing | gag based surveillance orders today. I'd like to know the | answer to that too. | 323 wrote: | They are a bit behind times with the messaging. | | Instead of talking about pedophiles, they should talk about | racists and far right extremists using chat platforms, that would | rally a big part of the press in support: | | > White supremacists openly organize racist violence on Telegram, | report finds | | https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/26/tech/white-supremacists-t... | | > Telegram: why right-wing extremists' favorite new platform is | so dangerous | | https://www.vox.com/recode/22238755/telegram-messaging-socia... | | > Neo-Nazi groups use Instagram to recruit young people, warns | Hope Not Hate | | https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/22/neo-nazi-group... | | > How far right uses video games and tech to lure and radicalise | teenage recruits | | https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/14/how-far-right-... | | > Revealed: walkie-talkie app Zello hosted far-right groups who | stormed Capitol | | https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/13/zello-app-us... | | > The UK social media platform where neo-Nazis can view terror | atrocities | | https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/the-uk-soci... | | > Are Private Messaging Apps the Next Misinformation Hot Spot? | | https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/personaltech/t... | | > The Cybersecurity 202: Extremists flocking to encrypted apps | could restart debate over law enforcement access | | https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/cybersecu... | natded wrote: | Do not worry, this is their actual goal obviously. Can't have | anyone voice opinions different from Klaus Schwab. | ricardobayes wrote: | I personally don't see anything wrong with this. If a private | company would do this, sure. But the EU, no. They are non-profit | and very unlikely to ever turn rogue. edit: I even welcome this | change. You can dislike how you wish, I stand by my view. | pydry wrote: | I really wish somebody (or a lot of people) would write a hit | movie/book where an innocent person on the run from a stasi-like | state in 2035 has to face an interrogator who could read their | whatsapp messages and google searches dating back to 2021. | | Without art or literature that draws out the terror I don't think | most people can really envisage the danger we're all being put | in. Without popular consciousness of the problem, it's all the | more likely to happen. | pmlnr wrote: | In the 80s we had cyberpunk dripping from everywhere, in the | 90s we had movies like The Net from 1995: ( | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113957/ ), and just recently(ish) | we had Black Mirror. | | People don't realize how deep the shit is becoming despite all | these. We have successfully amused ourselves to death. (as per | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death ) | superkuh wrote: | Cory Doctorow wrote this story in a number of ways but the most | obvious one was back in 2007 called "Scroogled". | http://superkuh.com/scroogled.html is a mirror because the | https://craphound.com/scroogled.html version is garbled. | pydry wrote: | Thanks! Yes, exactly like that. | drclau wrote: | It's a good idea. But I don't think the impact will be as big | as you hope. The "it can't happen to me" bias (optimism bias | [0]) will make sure of that. | | Links: | | [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias | pydry wrote: | I would expect the impact to be the way in which it would | shape conversations afterwards by serving as a cultural | touchpoint. Much like 1984 does. | | I'd really like to simply reference a classic movie or book | as a conversation ender every time this shit cropped up | rather than explain abstract risks from scratch in a less | than engaging fashion. | | Anyway. This isnt a problem I can solve. | drclau wrote: | Btw, your idea reminds me of "Enemy of the State" movie | [0]. I feel it was somewhat similar to your idea, except it | dealt with what seemed to be a potentially big issue back | then. | | Links: | | [0]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120660/ | RicoElectrico wrote: | Movies can and do shape public opinion. So did the Jaws with | respect to sharks [1] | | [1] https://daily.jstor.org/sharks-before-and-after-jaws/ | megous wrote: | The danger is from companies building massive centralized | archives of people's interpersonal comunications, behaviors and | ideas. The data is already available for nefarious purposes | internally. I'd be more interested in knowing how rampant the | abuse of the data already is. | malandrew wrote: | I think what is sad is such a movie would literally have to use | Google and WhatsApp in the movie as opposed to some fictional | search engine or fictional social network for people to make | the connection these days. | | Honestly, 1984 should be enough as it's not a big jump from | 1984 telescreens to Google/Facebook. | pydry wrote: | Why is that sad? | vaylian wrote: | Because otherwise most people won't understand that it is a | criticism of how things are in the real world. | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | Combining some recent news in which a company is attempting | to claim at least common words for their new identity, I | would just tweak the story so that the "Web" corporation in | 2035 is at some point disclosed to be merely a rebranding of | those we know today. One character will mention it to another | in a casual side-remark. | | "Yeah, I never did feel great about the time that old search | engine company renamed themselves "Web", but I guess the name | stuck" | avgcorrection wrote: | Honestly it's nothing new. Dystopian stories about modern | social media (or technology in general) gone wrong? Did I | dream that Black Mirror was a thing? | | Black Mirror is just an example. And the whole "social media | ruined the life of this one unsuspecting person" plotline is | pretty boring and on-the-nose by now. | snthd wrote: | It's not enough (but it's still a good idea). | | "Slaughterbots" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fa9lVwHHqg) | shows a terror angle for some of what technology can do | (drones). | skratlo wrote: | Black Mirror | radicalbyte wrote: | Slack has a premium version which explicitly allows this: your | employer can export ALL messages, including your private | messages. | aftbit wrote: | Good to mention it, but IMO generally assume anything issued | by or associated with your work is owned. | chronogram wrote: | I imagine every work communications platform has such a | feature since before email. | PeterisP wrote: | The games Orwell: Keeping an Eye on You and Orwell: Ignorance | is Strength explore this aspect, the player is an investigator | that can read "whatsapp messages and google searches" to | prosecute (or, in some cases, protect) people on the run from a | stasi-like state. | whitepaint wrote: | Oh man, this is a wonderful idea. | xalava wrote: | "Give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, | I will find enough there to hang him" Richelieu, French PM, | 17th century | [deleted] | zoover2020 wrote: | Hollywood, watch this. | pydry wrote: | Alas it wouldnt be a remake or a superhero franchise. The | best I can probably hope for is Charlie Brooker seeing it. | | And, if he writes a screenplay about it that probably means | it already happened. | zarq wrote: | Hunted, a Dutch TV series, is a reality show featuring exactly | this kind of investigative resources. A lot of times, the | players (the hunted) are tracked down because they used some | form of communication that is compromised by the hunters. | sharperguy wrote: | It would just be labeled a right wing conspiracy video from | trump supporters. | brippalcharrid wrote: | But at the same time, if a [big-budget Hollywood] film like | this were to be made, some might be tempted to think that it | was a form of Predictive Programming. | hohloma wrote: | I changed my mind a bit on this issue. of course I still think | its better with as little surveillance as possible, but I don't | think what you are describing is actually "terror". If you are | really an innocent person, there will be nothing in your | history. I mean can you give me some examples of things this | stati-state will find about you? Your porn history? or random | wiki page about explosives? If there is a stasi-like state and | they really want to get you, they don't need your history from | 2021, its enough to just beat a concession from you about | anything. Just see what the current stasi-like states are | doing. Otherwise "Enemy of the state" is a pretty good movie. | bserge wrote: | Let's see, drone research, bomb research, gunmaking and | ammunition possibilities, research on fires, explosions and | incendiary devices, quick suicide methods, drugs, legality | and punishment for a lot of shit, etc. | | Yep, I'm fucked :D | mpolichette wrote: | I want to agree with you... the problem arises because you're | applying your values to those items... e.g. "yeah they're | embarrassing/bad, but not really that bad"... | | However, it becomes scary when the people with access are | much less level-headed. There are people who think gay people | or watching porn should require treatment. There have been | power changes where people with drastically different views | have an agenda to push, and your innocuous "not really that | bad" is all of a sudden an imprisonable offense because you | "think differently" and you might encourage others. | AnthonyMouse wrote: | > If you are really an innocent person, there will be nothing | in your history. | | It's only not about things that are incriminating. Suppose | you were a witness to something nobody was supposed to know | about and now you're to be disposed of. | | If they have your message history, they have your full | contact list, your relationships with them, who you trust the | most, where you like to hang out, who owes you money or | favors you could call in. You're completely isolated. For | sure you can't use any kind of ATM or credit card or find | work anywhere they'd expect you to provide a social security | number. | | How far can you get if you can't buy gas or travel tickets? | What do you do for food? | ljm wrote: | Innocent of what, though? | | This sounds like the nothing to hide, nothing to fear | argument. | | The history allows such a state to construct a narrative | where everybody else thinks you're guilty, based on your | messages and porn history and so on. Cherry-picking, quoting | out of context, etc. This allows the state to legitimise | their actions, where torture would fail to do so. | | Make everyone fear each other. | ben_w wrote: | > I mean can you give me some examples of things this stati- | state will find about you? | | I think it's a bit unfair to ask someone to throw away their | (assuming American) 5th Amendment rights to make a point. | | To paint with a broad and nonspecific brush, the UK | government has regular surveys asking about drug use[0] which | show that in the year ending March 2020, 7.4% of young adults | used a class A drug. Possession of that class carries a | maximum penalty of 7 years and an unlimited fine, supply and | production up to life and unlimited fine. | | Even for more mundane things like road traffic laws, if they | were fully enforced then the only people with licenses would | be those who didn't drive. | | (And are your memes fully licensed from the original | copyright holder?) | | [0] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crime | and... | [deleted] | AshamedCaptain wrote: | Do note that they can already do that now. A stasi-like state | just has to force Google/Apple to store/give them the history, | and Google/Apple will oblige. They already do so regularly in | "non-stasi" states without much fanfare. | laumars wrote: | That's genius. The Circle (with Emma Watson and Karen Gillan) | started out really promising but ended up drifting in silliness | towards the end. Also I seem to recall the movie having a | really wooden quality despite the emotional content and having | competent actors. | hulitu wrote: | The funny part will be that the same politicians who today vote | this crap will be its victims. Those who do not underestand | history, will repeat it. | visarga wrote: | I'd rather have the ability to filter what I don't like in my | feeds, but having the government do this is totalitarian. Who | knows what they will search for, I lived under communism for 15 | years, thank you, don't want back to the reign of terror. | ricardobayes wrote: | The possibility of the EU becoming a totalitarian power is | without foundation. | iakov wrote: | It's not even about your feeds. It's about your private | messages. Crazy stuff, Gestapo and KGB wouldn't even dream of | this level of surveillance of ordinary citizens. | heavenlyblue wrote: | > Crazy stuff, Gestapo and KGB wouldn't even dream of this | level of surveillance of ordinary citizens. | | They were doing that exact thing to selected citizens. So did | FBI for alleged communists. | | Bugging apartments, planting their own spies, opening up | private letters, etc. | PontifexMinimus wrote: | > They were doing that exact thing to selected citizens | | But they couldn't do it to everyone. Now with computers | they can. You might think 1984 was written as a warning, | but the powers that be see it as an instruction manual. | rhn_mk1 wrote: | > selected citizens | | Yup, they wouldn't even dream about that magnitude. | buran77 wrote: | Scale makes a whole lot of difference. Even the Stasi, the | KGB, or the FBI had to restrict such monitoring to the | small fraction of the population they actually suspected. | Now they don't only suspect everyone, they also have the | tools to monitor everyone. | | It's the difference between being able to point a gun at a | few inconvenient people, and being able to point it at | everybody, all the time. Eventually the temptation | presented by this kind of power and control over people | will intersect with some Erdogan or Lukashenko type with | the finger on the trigger. | PeterisP wrote: | IIRC both Stasi and KGB _did_ aim for an almost full | coverage of surveillance and informants, not just | limiting to a small fraction of the population. Stasi had | 500000+ informants (3% or more of population) which had | _done_ monitoring, and obviously they wrote reports on | much more people than that. | | Similarly for KGB; I believe that standard practice was | to recruit secret informants e.g. from _every_ course | group in universities, so any student activities would be | fully covered and you could get a personal report about | every student; for 100% of any trips abroad the group had | an agent /informant or multiple within the group. So | you'd have a small fraction (multiple percent?) of | population actively involved in the monitoring, and a | majority of people being at least occasionally monitored | - as the archives later revealed, an _average person_ | should expect that your colleagues, friends and relatives | will [have to] write reports on you (corroborated by the | fact that any group might include two or more informants, | so any omissions would be obvious and cause consequences | for the false reporter) and note any expressions of anti- | government sentiment. | | The aim _was_ to effectively keep a gun aimed at | everyone, and they were somewhat successful in achieving | that (or at least maintaining that belief) even without | modern technologies. | buran77 wrote: | > The aim was to effectively keep a gun aimed at everyone | | The aim was to make everyone believe there _may_ be a gun | pointed at them even if there wasn 't. While that was | relatively effective do you know what is even more | effective? _Actually_ having a gun pointed at everyone. | | Having 500k Stasi informants and spies over its 50 years | of existence is a far cry from being able to effectively | spy on everyone all the time. And informants are | notoriously unreliable due to a whole host of human | failings, not least among them being that the people want | to gain favor or at least not antagonize the state. | | The modern surveillance state would make you inform on | yourself via every device or communication channel you | use, and at all times, with some human/AI combination | making sure very little if anything is missed. | PontifexMinimus wrote: | If Erdogan isn't doing this already, he certainly has | plans to. As do Putin, Xi, and a load of others. Welcome | to our Brave New World. | oleganza wrote: | :eyeroll: | | Why is it always "them" vs "us"? NSA/CIA are doing | probably a better job at global surveillance of | everything and everyone, simply based on resources | available to them. Every powerful enough government spies | on the largest scale they can, because just letting | someone else to spy on you and not spy yourself (if you | can) would be infinitely foolish. | | Even at local scale. If citizens could find a way to hold | their president on short leash, such president would be | more likely to listen to the citizens. But citizens don't | have such powers, only presidents do, so they only have | to listen to each other. | marcodiego wrote: | Thanks to how big IT companies have tighter ties to | developed countries, I wouldn't consider only these | governments. Remember the list of companies who | participated in PRISM were mostly (only) US-based. | intricatedetail wrote: | What makes you think people proposing this aren't on | level (or even above) with Erdogan or Lukashenko? At this | point they are just better at maintaining a good image. I | don't believe you can have good intentions and still want | to introduce such level of mass surveillance. | [deleted] | walrus01 wrote: | If modern day tech had been available to the stasi they | absolutely would have used it. They were already beginning to | collect hair samples from people in the late 1980s in | anticipation of widespread DNA testing being available 5, 10, | 15 years down the road. | mod50ack wrote: | I think the Chinese government in the present day (for | example) provides us with a good idea of what the Stasi | would be doing today. | nix23 wrote: | And we try to re-implement it because it works...for the | government ;) | Aerroon wrote: | I don't see how this won't pass. It's the EU. In the minds of | many people the EU can do no wrong. And if they do something | wrong it's okay and a small thing. And if it's not a small thing | then you're just a conspiracy theorist that hates democracy. | | In the past the EU passed a directive that required all ISPs to | save what websites you visited. This was overturned years later, | but it seems now they're trying again through a different angle. | | Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive | merb wrote: | well now it's child pornography which they use to push such | things trough. all people hate child pornography, but I mean, | who would use whatsapp for such things? I mean seriously what | are they even thinking? making such a thing go trough a | official directive probably makes things go worse, way worse. | | a lot of people in germany, basically do not care they thing | they do not have anything to hide (which is probably right) but | there are so many crimes which are just done in front of | everybody and nobody did care (cum ex, wirecard, just to name | some). it's like once the rich or politicans are involved they | start to care. | xcambar wrote: | Since it applies to chat and messaging providers... does it mean | I could self-host my emails and save them from Chatcontrol? | sabellito wrote: | Then everyone you communicate with would also need to self- | host. | LinuxBender wrote: | Maybe a small but growing number of people could deploy | NextCloud _(open source file sharing, email app)_. [1][2] | Some VPS providers make it easier to deploy. There might be | easier ways to deploy nextcloud. | | [1] - https://www.vultr.com/apps/nextcloud | | [2] - | https://www.linode.com/marketplace/apps/linode/nextcloud/ | kingcharles wrote: | We'll have to go back to the days of Echelon in the 90s where | everyone stuffed their Usenet posts and emails with keywords | intending to render any surveillance useless due to overwhelming | number of matches. | eluusive wrote: | This is definitely coming down the pipe. I think it's extremely | imported to come up with an alternative to the existing | centralized systems; which I believe primarily exist in order to | mitigate spam. | | Some people have been working on an interesting solution called | StampChat which has a similar topology to email, but the messages | are encrypted by default and the spam mitigation is done via | sending tokens to the recipient (ala Hal Finney's RPoW) idea. | | It's still a prototype, but there is one deployment over here: | https://web.stampchat.io | | The whitepaper on the protocol is here: | https://www.stampchat.io/whitepaper.pdf | | There's a faucet here if anyone is interested | https://faucet.lotuslounge.org/ | | We're not doing an ICO or anything, happy to give out more tokens | out. | shuntress wrote: | > I think it's extremely imported to come up with an | alternative to the existing centralized systems; which I | believe primarily exist in order to mitigate spam. | | I think spam and abuse are definitely significant problems. | | The centralized systems are like medieval walled cities. | | They exist because, for an average individual, there is no | practical way to live outside their walls. | | It's difficult to run your own email server. But, while the | technical challenge may be difficult, the greater difficulty is | in preventing your email server from becoming a bot in a spam | network. | Zababa wrote: | Sent to the US? Really? The whole idea is terrible and harmful, | but this part is what surprises me the most. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-11-01 23:01 UTC)