[HN Gopher] Show HN: Budibase - An open-source low code platform
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       Show HN: Budibase - An open-source low code platform
        
       Author : foxbee
       Score  : 160 points
       Date   : 2021-11-16 16:29 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (budibase.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (budibase.com)
        
       | gervwyk wrote:
       | Great work guys! Really high quality promotional video. Love it!
        
         | mjashanks wrote:
         | Thank you! Credit to https://www.thehypefactory.uk
        
       | shogunpurple wrote:
       | Hi folks! Budibase CTO and co-founder here.
       | 
       | We can't wait for the community to use and get value from
       | budibase - in both our cloud and self hosted offerings.
       | 
       | Happy to answer any questions about our tech and our plans for
       | the future!
        
       | mike_chuckles wrote:
       | Really glad to see you guys launching out of beta! I remember
       | trying Budibase a while ago, one thing I notice you didn't
       | mention was an Oracle database integration, is this something
       | that might happen any time soon?
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | We are currently in the process of shipping an oracle
         | integration and it will be available in our release next week!
         | 
         | Our oracle integration will also include automatic schema
         | fetching and query generation, so we can completely automate
         | CRUD operations against your existing oracle database.
        
           | mike_chuckles wrote:
           | That's great, will have to give it a try!
        
       | spmurrayzzz wrote:
       | I attempted to use this a few months ago to prototype a unified
       | ticketing solution (just an experiment to see if it would be
       | worth adopting for small internal apps) using pre-existing mongo
       | data. Seems super early to use this for anything serious in my
       | view.
       | 
       | TL;DR - It ended up being orders of magnitude faster for me to
       | just build it from scratch.
       | 
       | One of the biggest general UX issues I encountered was how data
       | sources & queries are defined in the UI, and then how they're
       | bound in the WSYWIG editor. It wasn't immediately obvious and the
       | docs are pretty lean. In most cases, I'd just prefer a config
       | file vs doing everything via the UI.
       | 
       | I like the idea and how flexible it aims to be generally, but its
       | in very early stages right now.
       | 
       | (Small aside: There was also a showstopper mongo bug as well that
       | would have prevented me from moving forward with the tool even if
       | I liked it. It was a simple async issue, 11 line diff to fix, but
       | took months to merge.)
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Hi, thanks for the feedback, sorry to hear you had some
         | problems.
         | 
         | The Mongo connector in general could probably do with some love
         | - there's a few features in mongo such as projections that
         | budibase does not support. We'd love to know more about what
         | you were trying to build and how we could help you achieve it.
         | 
         | We move quickly, however, and the platform has come a long way
         | in even a few months. We hope you try the platform again soon
         | and continue to provide feedback as to where it could be
         | improved.
         | 
         | Docs are a big focus for us over the coming months and they
         | will see significant improvement in short order.
         | 
         | Thanks again!
        
           | spmurrayzzz wrote:
           | I'd be happy to help out on the mongo side if you'd like.
           | Maybe some github issues with a related label to help triage
           | those issues would be helpful for folks to lend a hand.
           | 
           | I'll concede that no/low-code solutions have never
           | historically worked out at my organization (context: I am
           | cofounder and director of engineering at a wireless ISP).
           | Theres always a set of tradeoffs that make it really hard to
           | deliver value when you're dealing with business domain
           | constraints that are hard to generalize.
           | 
           | That said, I am always willing to give things a fair shot and
           | have a long list of small use cases that I use for
           | prototyping when I go down that rabbit hole.
        
         | gervwyk wrote:
         | Check out Lowdefy - https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy
         | 
         | It is open source, self hosted and you write your apps in
         | config (yaml / json). So your are not trapped in a UI, you are
         | free to copy paste find and replace and you can version control
         | as you like. Also, we use it extensively with mongo.
         | 
         | Shameless plug. Cofounder of Lowdefy
        
       | Ace__ wrote:
       | My use case may or may not have been part of the intended initial
       | focus of Budibase, which was to create an MVP to test and refine
       | an idea. I am not a dev, but I was able to find my around it for
       | the most part. To me, it was like an updated, easier to use MS
       | Access alternative. When I was stuck, I joined their Discord chat
       | room. The founders were prompt and informative in response to my
       | questions. Congratulations on the launch. To success. Ace.
        
         | mjashanks wrote:
         | Thanks Ace!
        
       | vailripper wrote:
       | I've been a big Retool user lately, this looks like a pretty nice
       | competitor! I like that you've got some workflow components in
       | here.
       | 
       | How are the applications stored internally? Is it possible to do
       | Git-based versioning with apps?
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Hi,
         | 
         | Our app metadata is stored as JSON documents in CouchDB, but
         | entire apps can be exported to .txt files that can be imported
         | into budibase also. Our templates work through this method.
         | 
         | We do not currently support git based versioning, although it's
         | certainly something we could support in future, given the fact
         | an entire app can be represented in a .txt file.
        
       | gerdydog wrote:
       | I have played around with this product a few times over the last
       | few months! It's getting better with every release. I used it for
       | an internal work tool last week and was able to be up and running
       | in less than an hour, where normally I'd have spent a day at it.
       | Using the blocks lets me forget about the design as well.
       | 
       | Would recommend everyone have play with it!
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | Appreciate the feedback. Blocks are a new feature, and we plan
         | on adding many more
        
       | revskill wrote:
       | I don't see any demo here. Just one demo to show all strengths of
       | the platform is still the fastest way to persuade user (like me),
       | else i have many doubts and questions like, what it can do ? Can
       | it do this ? How to do this things,...
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | https://youtu.be/xoljVpty_Kw is a promo demo. You can also try
         | our templates: https://budibase.com/templates. The setup
         | process is fast.
        
       | blakesterz wrote:
       | I don't have much to say other than your landing page actually
       | told me exactly what I could do with Budibase, which seems to not
       | happen as often as I would expect. I always check out new stuff
       | like this, and I'm often left wondering how this new thing works.
       | Nice work explaining what you do! It's not something I'd likely
       | need, but at least I know what it does.
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Thanks, really glad to hear that! If you do ever end up trying
         | the platform, don't hesistate to reach out and ask questions on
         | our github discussions forum.
        
       | ramon wrote:
       | This to me seems like the more feature full low-code open-source
       | alternative available, congratulations!
        
       | MarkOSullivan wrote:
       | Got to say a big thanks to the team for what they've built so
       | far, always enjoy using Budibase and find myself recommending
       | plenty of other people to give it a try!
       | 
       | Btw I love seeing the monthly updates Budibase showcase on your
       | YouTube channel, keep them coming! Makes me excited seeing more
       | and more features added each and every month on top of everything
       | that is already there.
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | Cheers for the support. The videos are a little basic and rough
         | around the edges, but hopefully they get the point across.
        
       | segphault wrote:
       | Installing the budibase server from npm pulls in over a thousand
       | transitive dependencies. The npm install command reports that
       | there are 39 known vulnerabilities in budibase's dependencies,
       | including 9 that are classed "high" and 3 that are "critical"
       | severity.
       | 
       | The dependency graph includes a lot of crap, like packages
       | containing trivial single-line functions like "is-object" and
       | "is-stream". That's a very large attack surface considering the
       | poor security practices in the npm ecosystem[0] and the growing
       | frequency of attacks on transitive dependencies[1].
       | 
       | I'm interested in hearing from the creators what steps they take
       | to audit their transitive dependencies in order to prevent this
       | application from being compromised. Given that a tool like this
       | would typically be given privileged access to internal data
       | sources, it seems like a tempting target. I don't think I'd be
       | comfortable using this in production.
       | 
       | [0]: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/52-percent-
       | of... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28962168
        
         | MisterSandman wrote:
         | You're not wrong, but also, npm audit is pretty much a joke,
         | and those "high" vulnerabilities aren't as bad as the terminal
         | would want you to think. Should absolutely be fixed, but just
         | relying on npm audit is a bit simplistic.
         | 
         | Your critique about packages for is-object is valid, though.
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Hi,
         | 
         | Thanks for the comment. We have just undergone a full security
         | audit as of 2 weeks ago - any infrastructure or code
         | vulnerabilities are currently being worked on.
         | 
         | Many JavaScript projects contain huge dependency trees - it is
         | unfortunately the nature of a 3rd party module-heavy ecosystem,
         | and can be hard to tame the sheer size of the tree. We will
         | update or pin dependencies as needed, to solve the security
         | issues being reported by NPM.
         | 
         | I should also mention that since budibase is self-hostable, it
         | can be run inside all of your existing infrastructure and
         | network - providing additional layers of security that you can
         | control.
         | 
         | Appreciate the feedback, and the information regarding
         | transitive dependencies - interesting article.
         | 
         | Note: Seems like source [0] has a broken link.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | sharemywin wrote:
       | I haven't played with the api connector, but where do you store
       | the api keys? is there a way to throttle the calls and hide them
       | behind authentication so a user doesn't just blast my api if it's
       | a paid service?
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Hi,
         | 
         | When using the REST connector, the API keys you hard code, as
         | headers for example, are stored in CouchDB.
         | 
         | We don't currently have rate limiting in the platform, but
         | that's a great suggestion - especially if users can control the
         | intervals.
        
       | foxbee wrote:
       | Hi HN! I'm one of the creators of Budibase, and today, we're
       | excited to launch Budibase out of beta.
       | 
       | Budibase is a low code platform for creating CRUD apps, and an
       | open-source alternative to PowerApps, Mendix, and OutSystems.
       | 
       | The Github repo is : https://github.com/Budibase/budibase
       | 
       | And our website is: https://budibase.com
       | 
       | Before Budibase, my cofounder and I worked together, and we were
       | constantly tasked with creating CRUD apps for internal operations
       | - the development process was repetitive, frustrating, and time-
       | consuming. At the time, I looked at low-code options, but there
       | was no standout open-source option.
       | 
       | So, my cofounders and I have spent the last 3 years creating
       | Budibase, an open-source low code platform, to make it faster,
       | easier, and more enjoyable to build CRUD apps [forms, admin
       | panels, approval apps, portals].
       | 
       | We believe low-code platforms should seamlessly integrate with a
       | company's tools and operations. With Budibase, you can create
       | apps using: MySQL, PostgreSQL, Rest API, and more. Or you can
       | start from scratch with Budibase's built-in database (built on
       | Apache CouchDB). Right now, Budibase supports Open ID Connect and
       | Google Auth. It also supports automations using Slack, email,
       | Zapier, Integromat, Webhooks, JavaScipt, and you can run scripts,
       | queries, CRON jobs.
       | 
       | To design your apps, you basically add pre-built components
       | [forms, tables, charts, buttons] to screens, then bind data to
       | those components using Handlebars or JavaScript. Budibase apps
       | work across desktop, tablet, and mobile.
       | 
       | As you create more apps and automate more processes, the reliance
       | on Budibase grows. So, we think it's important that you can 100%
       | own your data and self-host Budibase on your own infrastructure
       | (Docker, Digital Ocean, Kubernetes). Deploy Budibase with our
       | pre-packaged Redis, MinIO, and CouchDB or connect to your own
       | existing Amazon S3 compliant buckets, Redis clusters or CouchDB
       | instances.
       | 
       | Happy to answer any questions. We have a lot more to build and
       | love to hear use cases and feedback.
       | 
       | If you are interested, try it out:
       | 
       | https://github.com/Budibase/budibase
       | 
       | https://budibase.com
        
       | CGamesPlay wrote:
       | The landing page is devoid of images on Safari. Is the actual
       | product similarly limited?
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | What version of safari are you on?
        
           | CGamesPlay wrote:
           | Version 14.1.2 (14611.3.10.1.7)
        
             | foxbee wrote:
             | Strange - Safari supports Webp in v14. Also, I've tested
             | the website on two computers, both Safari v14 and they
             | appear. Apologies for this and thanks for letting us know.
             | I'll keep digging.
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Thanks for that! Seems like older versions of Safari don't
         | support the webp format of images that we are using on the
         | site.
         | 
         | The actual product does not use this format, so it has full
         | safari support and will work as expected.
        
       | captn3m0 wrote:
       | I've been looking for a no-code solution to quickly build webapps
       | on top of APIs exposed for mobile apps. I've been documenting
       | OpenAPI specs[0], and evaluated most Nocode solutions in the
       | market, trying out the "Rest API" integration in all of them.
       | 
       | Did the same for Budibase, and here's some feedback (on just the
       | REST API integration):
       | 
       | 1. Please link the (?) icon to the correct place in the docs. eg,
       | if I'm on the REST screen, it makes more sense to send me to
       | https://docs.budibase.com/quickstart-tutorials/crud-app-with...,
       | instead of https://github.com/Budibase/budibase/discussions/
       | 
       | 2. Provide html input placeholders in all fields. Understanding
       | whether "Url" field refers to the base URL, or a complete
       | endpoint URL (different platforms treat this differently) is
       | confusing. Even things like whether or not it needs a trailing
       | slash. Having a placeholder with a standard API (such as OpenAPI
       | Pets example) makes it easier.
       | 
       | 3. The Jinja template format is great (I don't think any other
       | platform came close to what this simple solution does) - but it
       | isn't documented well enough. The API endpoint creation form
       | should guide me to it as a possibility - without me having to
       | look for it.
       | 
       | 4. Really liked the auto-schema detection.
       | 
       | 5. The forms really need to be more explanatory. ("Parameters"
       | could refer to HTTP body parameters, or REST API parameters, but
       | it's unclear)
       | 
       | 6. Rough edges such as [1] should either be fixed, or
       | automatically be disallowed.
       | 
       | As an aside, I'm curious why the entire nocode industry docs are
       | on GitBooks.
       | 
       | [0]: https://stoplight.captnemo.in/
       | 
       | [1]:
       | https://github.com/Budibase/budibase/discussions/1385#discus...
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | This is great feedback. Thank you!
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Thanks so much for this detailed feedback.
         | 
         | We are actually currently planning work to greatly improve the
         | experience of the REST API integration (including better docs)
         | - due to it being such a fundamental part of building any
         | software.
         | 
         | 1) Good catch, we will fix that right away. 2) Great
         | suggestion, this will definitely help guide the user. 3) Very
         | valid - there will be a more wizard based experience for the
         | REST connector soon. It's quite manual at the moment.
         | Appreciate that you liked the handlebars templating experience!
         | 4) This is a big feature for budibase - we try and auto
         | generate as much as we can, to make the dev experience faster.
         | 5) More docs and guidance around this is on the way with our
         | "blocks" feature, which should make building forms a much more
         | pleasant experience. 6) as above.
         | 
         | Gitbooks is a pretty nice platform - it takes a lot of the
         | effort out of creating/designing docs and they recently updated
         | their editor, so we are very happy with it!
        
       | jimiljojo wrote:
       | congrats! I work in a similar space, and this looks promising.
       | Suggestion for your marketing team - the promo demo is great, but
       | make it HD. The demo recording is pixelated on 4K res. You can do
       | better :) Good luck!
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | Cheers - where did you watch the promo video? We use wistia for
         | the website, but you can view it on youtube too.
         | 
         | Is this any better: https://youtu.be/xoljVpty_Kw
        
           | jimiljojo wrote:
           | that is the one I watched. See screenshot
           | https://imgur.com/a/4NNv1vN
           | 
           | The postgres fields are barely visible. I was also looking at
           | the website templates for the score card. The screens get
           | blurry there too. I might use the template ;)
           | https://budibase.com/business-apps/templates/hashicorp-
           | score...
        
             | foxbee wrote:
             | I will look into it. That's a good template to start with!
        
       | snarkypixel wrote:
       | Raw feedback: I think the product is promising and is cool, but
       | the marketing/brand-image is cringey and turned me off
       | completely.
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | What did you feel was cringey?
        
       | rpowell9k wrote:
       | Looks great! I've used budibase before and it's looking really
       | well these days, loving the UX improvements. Are there any plans
       | for out of the box metrics or monitoring? e.g. with open source
       | tools like prometheus
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Thanks - we have been working hard on making UX a priority for
         | budibase and glad to see that it's paid off!
         | 
         | We plan on introducing a self-hostable metrics stack built on
         | exactly the technologies you mentioned in the next few months.
         | Grafana, Loki, Prometheus and more.
         | 
         | This should give users total insight into what's going on in
         | their budibase installations and allow them control over their
         | budibase infrastructure.
        
           | rpowell9k wrote:
           | that sounds great - thanks for the quick reply looking
           | forward to it
        
       | jFriedensreich wrote:
       | congrats! following you for a while now and i think this could
       | hit a sweet spot that is currently only occupied by retool.
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | Thanks + it's open source which every dev tool should be!
        
       | mjashanks wrote:
       | Hey Everyone! Other Budibase co-founder here.
       | 
       | An open-source platform is the missing piece to the low-code/no-
       | code landscape - I'm also here to answer any questions!
        
       | innomatics wrote:
       | Is your landing page and hosting dashboard all built and powered
       | by Budibase?
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Hi,
         | 
         | Nope it isn't - our website is built with hugo
         | https://gohugo.io/
         | 
         | Our hosting dashboard is built with svelte.
        
       | RonanMcQ wrote:
       | I've been using Budibase for a while now to build different
       | business apps. Really impressed with how easy it is to get
       | deployable tools up and running (as someone who's not the best
       | coder). Can't wait to see what else is in the pipeline!
        
       | sharemywin wrote:
       | I would like to see a hosted tier between Enterprise and Free.
       | 
       | maybe something like $10/dev plus upcharges for storage and data
       | transfer. but unlimited apps(or at least a generous amount of
       | apps). and an issue escalation charge.
        
         | mjashanks wrote:
         | Thanks for the feedback! We've not yet settled our pricing,
         | which is why its not listed.
         | 
         | Great to hear some opinions on it :)
        
           | sharemywin wrote:
           | just looking for a budget friendly option for small indie
           | devs. lots of ideas but probably not a lot of traction.
        
       | Multrex wrote:
       | What's the difference between Budibase and AppSmith and what is
       | the benefit to switch my apps from AppSmith to Budibase?
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | mjashanks wrote:
         | TLDR; AppSmith and Budibase are quite different platforms, but
         | with significant overlap.
         | 
         | Budibase is meant to be used by IT Professionals (sysadmins,
         | dbas, IT managers, PMs, developers). AppSmith is more targeted
         | at developers. Because of this, Budibase has much less of a
         | reliance on code - we like to say "code optional".
         | 
         | Also, you will see us talk more about "Business apps", rather
         | than "Internal Tools". A Budibase app is a real, single-page
         | application - which you would happily give out to external
         | users and folks in other departments who do not need to know
         | your team's internal processes. The apps are also responsive by
         | default.
         | 
         | Another differentiator is that Budibase comes packaged with a
         | database (runs on CouchDB). This makes creating new
         | applications easy - without having to spin up another DB. We
         | also offer 1st class support for SQL Databases - Budibase will
         | automatically fetch your tables and automate the basic INSERT,
         | UPDATE, SELECT and DELETE statements (like an ORM).
         | 
         | If you want to place us in the overall low-code landscape, we
         | are more like an open-source Powerapps/Mendix/OutSystems. I
         | sometimes say (half-jokingly) that Budibase is what would
         | happen if Retool and Stacker had an open-source baby.
        
           | robjeiter wrote:
           | hey there, here is Rob, co-founder at Chartmat. Congrats on
           | your Launch. this looks amazing. Also super interesting
           | thread on HN.
           | 
           | At Chartmat we also provide internal apps, forms & dashboards
           | (we are at an early stage though). however, we are targeting
           | non-technical users (no-code niche), since we found it hard
           | with our previous low-code iteration to get enough users.
           | 
           | I wish you guys all the best on your way & I'm always happy
           | to exchange experiences. Keep the good work up!
        
         | arey_abhishek wrote:
         | Appsmith founder here. Congratulations on launching Budibase! I
         | think it's a beautiful product.
         | 
         | Like MJshanks mentioned, there's some overlap in the usecases
         | but there are significant differences in the platform
         | direction. Budibase is more no-code, while Appsmith is geared
         | towards developers aiming to build complex applications.
         | 
         | Appsmith is a more popular and mature tool with high quality
         | documentation, video tutorials and stellar community support.
         | The GitHub stars, issue list, and size of Discord community
         | reflect this. [0]
         | 
         | 1. According to users who've tried both, Appsmith's UX is
         | simpler and enables building information dense UI. Appsmith has
         | drag and drop to build absolute UI vs. relative positioning in
         | Budibase. This does make Budibase apps more mobile responsive
         | than Appsmith ones. Links to comments by other HN users [1] [2]
         | 
         | 2. Appsmith is a more powerful platform with a high ceiling and
         | low floor for entry. You can build simple apps quickly by auto-
         | generating them. In Appsmith, you can write full-fledged
         | JavaScript anywhere on the platform. This ensures all your
         | business logic is always expressed correctly. You can map over
         | data, merge data from different data sources, trigger
         | conditional workflows, and conditionally control widget
         | properties all with a few snippets of code.
         | 
         | Few more feature differences:
         | 
         | 1. Appsmith has more UI components and support for 100+ charts
         | 
         | 2. Built in git sync for version control
         | 
         | 3. Real-time commenting and real-time editing(WIP) to enable
         | collaboration between users
         | 
         | 4. Appsmith has organizations/workspaces to help freelancers
         | manage multiple projects
         | 
         | 5. Error logger and linter to debug issues
         | 
         | Honestly at a more fundamental level, it's just great to see
         | all the different products that have come out over the years
         | that are trying to tackle the same problem space. When we
         | started out initially, we didn't find any open-source
         | alternatives (Budibase wasn't open source then), and so we
         | embarked on building it. And now it's great to see so many
         | different products, which gives users more choice and power
         | over finding the platform that fits their needs best.
         | 
         | [0] https://github.com/appsmithorg/appsmith
         | 
         | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28991242
         | 
         | [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28304152
        
       | f6v wrote:
       | But what if I want to see the pricing right away?
        
         | mjashanks wrote:
         | We haven't yet worked out out our pricing model for Budibase
         | Cloud. However, it will most likely be user-based / per seat -
         | similar to platforms like Retool & Airtable.
        
           | oezi wrote:
           | Such pricing models would prevent any kind of resale for most
           | products. Please at least consider a pricing model which
           | allows for something like 1 USD per MAU, for instance if data
           | isn't shared between users (could a SaaS be build on budibase
           | which cost 10 USD per month to the end-user).
        
             | mjashanks wrote:
             | I hear you! Budibase is not meant for building a SaaS
             | product. However, it's good for "Customer Portals" -
             | whereby you are giving access to external users. This is a
             | problem for per-seat pricing, but there are ways to solve
             | it.
             | 
             | We've thought about pricing per MAU. The difficulty is that
             | we would always be charging for last month's usage, rather
             | than more predictable upfront charging. Also - coming up
             | with an exact definition of "active" is not trivial!
             | 
             | Thanks for the feedback!
        
       | swyx wrote:
       | just chiming in to congratulate you on a successful Product Hunt
       | launch today as well!
       | (https://www.producthunt.com/posts/budibase)
       | 
       | i gotta ask about the tradeoffs of being open source. It's great
       | for trust and marketing, but if people can self-host Budibase
       | they're always weighing DIY vs paying you. I also work in an open
       | source company and I know product development is often slowed
       | because you have to consider the open ended needs of the open
       | source users vs the constrained assumptions of your cloud.
       | 
       | Any insights or rules of thumb you've developed to think about
       | running an open source business?
        
         | mjashanks wrote:
         | Thanks! Open-source has been fantastic for us. We've only
         | recently launched our cloud platform, yet we've had a good
         | sized community using Budibase and feeding back issues, feature
         | requests etc. for ages. Building an open-source product has
         | been so rewarding that way.
         | 
         | Of course, you're exactly right - we now have another ball to
         | juggle; keeping our cloud up and running!
         | 
         | It took us nearly 3 years to open our cloud up, but I'm so glad
         | that we left it this long. Only now do we have the engineering
         | resource to handle open-source/self-host and cloud whilst still
         | keeping the pace of development up.
         | 
         | So, for tips - work on product, product, product. Build your
         | community and give them a great open-source offering. Your
         | community will give back in return - even pure product feedback
         | is gold. Then launch cloud when your direction is solid and
         | you're confident in your product.
        
       | peterkelly wrote:
       | I notice you've used two different programming languages to
       | express application logic. A the high-level, you have
       | automations, which are simple but look very limited in terms of
       | capabilities (i haven't studied this part in great detail, but
       | does its support things like looping, arbitrary conditional
       | expressions, and an abstraction mechanism like user-defined
       | functions?). At the low level, you have JavaScript to do fine-
       | grained data manipulation, which is often necessary to take care
       | of details like computing summaries of data or transforming
       | between different formats.
       | 
       | I've seen this approach used in a _lot_ of different workflow
       | systems over the years, and it 's always struck be as awkward.
       | Have you considered designing the automation language in such a
       | way that it is sufficiently expressive to cover the full range of
       | needs for apps, from the high-level aspects to the low-level
       | details?
       | 
       | The approach I prefer to use is to pick a suitably generic
       | language (generally based on a formal process calculus and
       | extended with useful primitives). I'm on my second round of doing
       | this now (first as an academic research project, now in industry)
       | and in both cases it's been based on lambda calculus (and in the
       | industry project, based on Scheme). The language constructs and
       | model of computation are identical whether you're implementing
       | high-level aspects of the workflow logic (a sequence of steps,
       | with optional conditional branches, looping etc) and low-level
       | aspects (iterating through a list of numbers to compute the sum).
       | One language + interpreter takes care of both. I discuss this
       | approach in Chapters 2 and 3 of
       | https://www.pmkelly.net/publications/thesis.pdf.
        
         | gervwyk wrote:
         | I've read your abstract and it looks very interesting! I'll be
         | diving into the rest as I find time over the next few weeks
         | thanks for sharing! And well done on this piece of work!
         | 
         | It was interesting to me that you mentioned "functional
         | programming as a model for data-oriented workflow languages". I
         | find it interesting because we are building Lowdefy [0] with
         | which you can express feature rich apps in yaml / json, and
         | have been considering how to implement DAG type stuff in future
         | versions.
         | 
         | We've taken a lot of inspiration from Mongodb aggression query
         | language and as a result built a json / yaml parser which
         | evaluates functions (operators) to implement logic throughout
         | the app. This proved to be extremely flexible, easy to use for
         | data manipulation, and surprisingly performant as we can
         | actually evaluate the expressions during the render loop.
         | 
         | Going to read more parts of your thesis.
         | 
         | [0] - https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Hi Peter,
         | 
         | Automations are simple by design - the general automation steps
         | are kept simple so they are easy to configure and create. We do
         | however have a JS and a bash automation block. These blocks let
         | you perform looping, iteration and logic using either
         | JavaScript or bash.
         | 
         | The reason we use JavaScript is simple. Most software engineers
         | can write or at least express simple constructs in JavaScript.
         | Being a C family language, this makes it easy to pick up for
         | engineers who have been exposed to other languages like Java,
         | for example.
         | 
         | The problems you are describing are actually something that we
         | have felt before, when budibase did not have JS support, we had
         | users reporting that the templating/handlebars syntax was not
         | good for logic, and was new to them. It was esoteric and
         | required in depth knowledge for advanced use cases.
         | 
         | Using an off-the-shelf high level or more specific expressive
         | language has some serious drawbacks, especially if you create
         | it yourself. The first is education - writing extensive docs
         | around how to write and use that language. The next is
         | maintenance - maintaining your own custom PEG grammar or
         | programming language is a huge project in itself, not even
         | including the research required to execute it well.
         | 
         | By using JavaScript, we can leverage the already existing
         | plumbing for executing JavaScript, and provide something that
         | has much for familiarity to the general user.
        
       | miki_tyler wrote:
       | I see that you support some integrations. We are interested on
       | that (http://stack55.com), do you provide or plan to build some
       | custom API?
        
         | shogunpurple wrote:
         | Hi,
         | 
         | We currently do not have a documented direct REST API - but you
         | can use our webhook feature to ping budibase and trigger
         | actions within the platform.
         | 
         | We do plan to provide a custom API and a fully documented,
         | official HTTP API in the next few months.
        
       | fuddle wrote:
       | Looks awesome! It's great to see more open source companies doing
       | well.
        
         | foxbee wrote:
         | Thank you for your kind words
        
       | tomnipotent wrote:
       | I really appreciate how forward your product is with pushing the
       | open source version. After clicking around for a bit in Cloud, it
       | made is so easy to commit to a local install.
       | 
       | Budibase is definitely a product I could see preferring to spend
       | on Enterprise, unless there was a very compelling my team could
       | accomplish "more" with self-hosting. I just ask that if you end
       | up with some sort of per-user/seat fee, that you follow Slack's
       | lead and charge only for activity. This will win my heart over.
       | 
       | Also, custom domain support. Execs love their vanity URLs.
        
         | mjashanks wrote:
         | Thank you! I hear you with the pricing for activity. It's
         | definitely something that we will consider.
         | 
         | And who doesn't love a vanity URL?!
        
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