[HN Gopher] Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard
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Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard
Author : coldblues
Score : 54 points
Date : 2021-11-27 16:27 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (keymacs.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (keymacs.com)
| xondono wrote:
| I see a lot of red flags here. They claim it's "over-engineered",
| but it looks like the opposite.
|
| The cheaping out:
|
| 1) 2 layer board with two modules (one of them a DIY arduino
| board). Given the price tag they could have spent $2 in going 4
| layers and add some ground planes.
|
| 2) Charging extra for N-key rollover? Seriously? Who though that
| would look good?
|
| 3) No cable?
|
| The overspending:
|
| 1) Fully machined two part case. There's a LOT of excess
| everywhere. More weight doesn't make thins stronger. There were
| easier ways to build a case like that.
|
| 2) Every single piece aside from the switches seems to be fully
| custom made. "Custom" is only good if it brings value, for a lot
| of the pieces involved there seems to be little if any
| improvement.
|
| 3) from the pictures it looks like they surface finished the
| _insides_ of they case, and even the support plate. Why would I
| care to add a brushed look to an _internal_ part?
| rowathay wrote:
| Basically, this is "Juicero: The Keyboard."
| Animats wrote:
| Juicero was cheaper. This is "Starting at EUR1,262".
| alpaca128 wrote:
| > Why would I care to add a brushed look to an internal part?
|
| The custom keyboard community includes people who indeed care
| about such details. Also it's not unusual to get no cable with
| such kits; Custom cables are popular too.
|
| I'm not sure how this compares to known brands in that price
| range as I'm not exactly an expert in case manufacturing, but
| I've seen designs that I find more appealing.
| jerlam wrote:
| "Custom" meant to me that the item was customized for the user.
|
| Here it's being used to mean that the item was customized for
| the manufacturer, which is completely different. Any color of
| keycaps you want as long as they're black, no printing
| available on the non-querty keys, but six types of switches.
|
| Also bad if I need any spare parts, because they're
| nonstandard, and would be hard to source and expensive.
|
| These are more like exotic cars than working tools.
| nomdep wrote:
| WTF?! More than $1400 for a unknown brand keyboard made of
| plastic?
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| The case is made of aluminium.
| guenthert wrote:
| Uh, Unicomp offers Symbolics-Style key caps for their (mini)
| Model-M. Not quite the same, but saves you some $800 or so.
| User23 wrote:
| I've been looking for a modern space cadet keyboard, but this
| isn't it. For one the space bar is way bigger than it ought to be
| and that reclaimed space should have at a bare minimum
| comfortably thumb accessible control and meta keys. Or whatever
| you want to progr As it is my thumb has to travel all the way to
| my pinky just to hit the first modifier key.
|
| If you're calling your board keymacs it should have exceptional
| ergonomics for default emacs style binds. They did get the
| parentheses right though which is nice.
|
| I want to see this small family business succeed and I would
| consider low four figures for the perfect emacs board so I hope
| they iterate on this.
| lispm wrote:
| It's not a space cadet keyboard. It's a 'copy' of the Symbolics
| Lisp Machine keyboard from the mid 80s.
|
| https://keymacs.com/img/gh/symbolics-vs-keymacs-720px.jpg
|
| It's a newer version of the early 80s keyboard from Symbolics:
|
| https://webwit.nl/input/misc/symbolics1.jpg
|
| The Symbolics computers used an editor called Zmacs.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Marketing gripe: "Over-engineering" is a negative thing for me.
| That means that the engineers didn't think through the boundary
| conditions and requirements. They couldn't produce optimal
| solution. They couldn't bother with perfection. Instead they just
| slapped things together without calculation and hope it will hold
| up.
| xbar wrote:
| Is anyone else making Alps keyboards for about $1k less?
| psanford wrote:
| While this is intriguing, it takes quite a lot out of the
| original charm of the spacecadet keyboard. All the mathematical
| symbols, the roman numberals, the thumbs up/down keys are what
| make the spacecadet so much fun. If you just want to throw a lot
| of modifier keys on a keyboard, you could come up with a better
| layout than this.
| tgbugs wrote:
| For comparison there is the Hyper-7 r3 which is a very large
| keyboard, but has some similarities in layout [0].
|
| https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/shop/hyper-7-keyboard-r3/
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| In my mind, this is the pinnacle of keyboard craftsmanship.
|
| It hits a lot of checkboxes for high-end custom keyboards, but
| combined with Alps-type switches and totally custom-made keycaps,
| this really sets a new precedent.
|
| Personally, I'd rather use something with ortholinear or column-
| staggered keys. If I was a row-staggered person however, then
| this would be it.
| zcam wrote:
| The price tag is ridiculous
| McSinyx wrote:
| Seconded, I had to double check if it was really the euro
| symbol because I couldn't believe my eyes.
| rodneyzeng wrote:
| Me too. I watched that symbol for about 1 min.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Apparently they didn't lie about the "Seriously Over-
| Engineered" part.
| duped wrote:
| The bulk of it is the custom keycaps (a keycap run is seriously
| expensive, especially if you're using weird key sizes), the
| enclosure, and the switches. They're probably being hosed by
| their suppliers too, since I can't imagine they have the money
| to invest in serious volume.
|
| That said the board looks seriously under-engineered. It's a
| bit ridiculous to invest so much in high quality switches and
| an enclosure built like a tank without spending any time on
| designing the board to withstand any forces, passing the buck
| onto their customers to make sure everything is soldered
| correctly...
|
| I'd be confident the enclosure survives a fall and lasts a
| lifetime but certainly not anything inside it.
| xondono wrote:
| I'm not that sure. Nowadays you can get runs on the cheap,
| that's why group buys are even possible in the DIY community.
|
| The fully machined aluminum case probably plays a part in
| there too.
| duped wrote:
| The fact you need group buys at all is evidence to how
| expensive it is. There really aren't that many places you
| can go for quality either.
| utopcell wrote:
| This kind of products bothers me. At >$1400, they are clearly a
| money-grab on the back of the very innovative and vibrant diy
| keyboards community.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| Normally I would agree with this sentiment, but then look at
| the prices of artisans which hover between $50-$150 each, then
| consider the fact that every key on this keyboard was
| individually custom made. At ~87 keys in a $1400 kit, this is
| already a steal for resin-cast Alps keycaps.
|
| https://youtu.be/VIRkCXVwoXk
|
| https://youtu.be/LY2dbQ_M06g
| fllsdf wrote:
| You can get 2u modifiers key for 2$ a piece on PMK [1] Sure
| they're not alps but if you're buying in any capacity i'm
| 100% sure you would pay maybe 1/10 to 1/100 of the price,
| case in point [2], even if you had to buy a set of 24$ you
| could extract 5 2u each for ~5$ a piece,given 16 modifiers
| that's 80$ in keycaps while being extremely generous about
| the price they would actually pay about them. Even if you're
| paying 5$ a piece for every single key that's ~450$ in
| keycaps, which is not even half of the price. And i just
| discovered that they are making you pay 150EUR for the
| privilege of having a qwerty layout, which can be found in
| [2] for 24$, it's a nice keyboard but unless the case itself
| is worth 800EUR+ it's a ripoff
|
| [1] https://pimpmykeyboard.com/sa-2-space-pack-of-4/ [2] http
| s://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| I think you're missing the point here. Each link you posted
| are for keycaps that are made using injection molding. The
| process used by Keymacs is resin casting. The costs and
| customization involved aren't the same. It is an apples to
| oranges comparison.
| danachow wrote:
| It bothers you? Then don't buy it. I doubt they're making very
| much money on something like this - at these prices the volumes
| are obviously going to be small and the custom keycaps and
| machining for a short run are not cheap.
|
| If someone is trying to get rich quick there are far more
| effective ways then selling a handful of keyboards to a few
| nerds with disposable income.
| bloopernova wrote:
| I really want to like this, but there's several negatives in my
| opinion. * No arrow key cluster * Alps
| rather than Cherry switches, which in my opinion means much less
| choice of switch and keycap. * No QMK firmware (I think?)
|
| But all those extra keys could be really nice to customize.
|
| I'm really looking forward to getting my Keyboardio Model 100.
| Going to have fun customizing the keys and getting used to a
| split keyboard. I'm definitely going to get another small macro
| pad so I can have arrow keys.
| spindle wrote:
| I love QMK, but IMO it's not so vital to have it now that
| there's a good alternative at the OS level:
| https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad#features
| Findecanor wrote:
| * The keyboard is a recreation of classic keyboards from
| Symbolics that had this layout. [1][2]
|
| * It does support QMK.
|
| 1. https://deskthority.net/wiki/Symbolics_364000
|
| 2. https://deskthority.net/wiki/Symbolics_365407
| lispm wrote:
| For the original keyboard layout of a Symbolics Lisp Machine
| keyboard see:
|
| https://twitter.com/rainerjoswig/status/1464675225061240836?...
| pnathan wrote:
| Not sure why "some assembly required" is so popular in higher end
| keyboard circles. I'd rather buy something that was repairable.
| I'm not a skilled electronics worker - my skills are elsewhere.
| I'd probably introduce my own defects into the keyboard...
|
| These days I'm using a Kinesis Edge with lifters: comfortable,
| ergonomic, and, likly, reliable.
|
| Anyway I would probably get a Kinesis Advantage or Maltron 3D
| keyboard for these prices. Fully assembled, with a warranty. :)
|
| I look forward to another iteration of a symbolics keyboard...
| apocalypstyx wrote:
| You could get (in US dollars) 3 Kinesis Advantage 2s for the
| price of the basic kit here. As an Advantage user (I also built
| a couple of Maltrons from scratch at one point) I'm not giving
| up symmetry to fulfill what I suspect is a fundamentally
| hauntological desire.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| > Not sure why "some assembly required" is so popular in higher
| end keyboard circles.
|
| I have heard that Betty Crocker cake mix initially wasn't very
| popular. Housewives didn't like it. They reformulated it so
| that it wasn't "just add water" - you had to add an egg as
| well. That made it a lot more popular, because people could
| still feel like "I made that cake".
|
| I wonder if this isn't the same. "I built that" gives more
| pride of ownership than "I took it out of a box.".
| bombela wrote:
| This website randomly scrolls one line at some interval. It makes
| reading quite an unpleasant experience.
| [deleted]
| tyingq wrote:
| EUR965 if you solder it yourself, not including the Teensy MCU or
| cable.
| Findecanor wrote:
| I think that the worst thing is that the Teensy 2.0
| microcontroller board is scheduled to be discontinued during
| next year.
| minimilian wrote:
| Wow; finally a keyboard with enough modifiers and no false
| assumptions about their names. Does this use the same kind of
| switch as the Space Cadet? How does it compare to the buckling
| springs of the IBM Model F? Can one flash QMK onto it, or another
| free firmware that allows one to do all configurations in plain
| text (for those of us who hate graphical interfaces)?
|
| While I like the layout and the keys and the legends, I don't
| love the case; this, I think, has more character:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg
| lispm wrote:
| I think the original looks best, especially connected to a real
| color Symbolics Lisp Machine like this:
|
| https://www.instagram.com/p/CWrArcZBNRQ/
| coldblues wrote:
| It uses Alps switches. They are considered to be the best of
| the best. https://keymacs.com/keymap.html can be used to
| reprogram the keyboard.
| Findecanor wrote:
| Restored genuine vintage Alps or Matias Click.
|
| Whether the Alps are "best of the best" is a matter of
| personal preference.
|
| Matias' switches are modern clones of the vintage Alps
| switches. They have a poor reputation for reliability though,
| sadly.
| iamevn wrote:
| I love my keyboard with Matias quiet click switches but
| they absolutely did have a bad batch that die super
| quickly. Had to buy a bag of spares to swap a few switches
| out.
|
| These appear to not be Matias though based on the stems
| https://deskthority.net/wiki/Matias_switch
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| The Keymacs uses Alps-derivatives, while the original used Hall
| Effect switches: https://youtu.be/oDozftThFMw
| p_l wrote:
| The specific model that Keymacs recreates rarely, if ever,
| used Hall Effect switches - 365407 used mostly "gundam" aka
| "space invaders" linear switches that operate somewhat
| similarly to SKCM used by Keymacs, though some units had ITW
| mag-valve switches.
|
| 36000 keyboard were all Hall-Effect like their predecessor
| Space Cadet and Knight keyboards.
|
| All of them (Knight, Space Cadet, Symbolics) used linear
| switches.
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