[HN Gopher] Ikea Vindriktning Air Quality Sensor Review and Accu... ___________________________________________________________________ Ikea Vindriktning Air Quality Sensor Review and Accuracy Author : ahaucnx Score : 376 points Date : 2021-12-06 11:26 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.airgradient.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.airgradient.com) | DannyBee wrote: | I would be very careful with this kind of evaluation. There are | lots of sensors that perform well vs reference instruments but | not in the field. | | If you want real evaluations, SCAQMD (the folks in charge of air | quality for southern california) do evaluations of commercially | available, low cost sensors, both against reference instruments | and the lab. | | See http://www.aqmd.gov/aq-spec/evaluations | | You can see what i said is true from the table - _lots_ of | sensors that are very well correlated with reference instruments | in the lab, but suck horribly in the field. | | I would think you would be better off submitting the sensor in | question to them, and letting them put it through its paces. | | (They publish within a month of finishing testing, and testing | takes ~8 weeks) | hedora wrote: | Thanks for the link; that's a great resource! | | To summarize their current results: Purple Air (especially | version 2) is the only one that doesn't suck at measuring PM | 2.5. None of the consumer-targeted gaseous sensors they tested | work. | | Did I miss something? Is some other third party running more | comprehensive tests? | DannyBee wrote: | Assuming you care PM1.0/PM2.5 (which are what are truly | harmful), and want R^2 >0.9: | | Atmotube pro Elitech (for PM2.5) Purpleair | | The field evaluations have good expositions of the underlying | data in slide form. For sure the purpleair is the best bet | that i can see. Note that they are pragmatic as well - if you | read field evaluations, AQMD folks generally think >0.8 R^2 | is very good. Which probably makes sense comparing a $50-$250 | device to a several thousand dollar reference instrument. | | Note that one serious issue is that a bunch of the sensors | aren't just uncorrelated, they are often dramatically | undercounting. It would be one thing if they were | dramatically overcounting, and told you air was horrible when | it wasn't. But they are actually telling you air is fine when | it isn't even close to fine. | | I actually went down the same path as OP about 6 months ago. | I have used a dylos meter in my old woodshop, and was | building a new one, and wanted to see what the the best thing | to do was. After a bunch of looking, i found these folks. I | am not aware of others doing this breadth of testing. | | (It turn out the dylos meter is either accurate, or | overcounts, depending on temperature/humidity. This is | actually acceptable since it won't tell me things are good | when they are bad, but it also turned out the purpleair was | consistently good for the same price :P) | formerly_proven wrote: | So the two purpleair devices are using PM1003 and PM5003 | sensors, respectively. These are available off the shelf as | well. I suppose the salient question is: does purpleair | calibrate / select these themselves or add anything to them | (e.g. filter), or can you just use a PMS5003 for 30 bucks and | get similar results? | genewitch wrote: | Afaik you can use the $30 module and be within acceptable | tolerances, but you really should have at least a | temperature and humidity sensor as well, because as that | changes the other sensors will report differently. | | I've noticed that even being exposed to pure carbon dioxide | the sensors I have will increase the counts of CO, VOC, and | HCHO, which is unlikely and a false read. | | I only care about CO2 for my devices, so my two $30 sensor | based devices are fine. | Gatsky wrote: | The Sensirion does pretty OK for the price and form factor. | jiveturkey wrote: | +1 | | I don't have a problem with the OP's analysis of the Ikea | sensor. It seems generally reasonable. But rather with their | implication that the DIY sensor being promoted is of higher | quality. | | Because accuracy is very much a "finished product" | implementation issue, not just the sensor itself, such | implication is off-base, particularly in direct comparison to | any finished commercial product. The accuracy of the DIY | version is going to vary -- a lot -- depending on the builder | of such. | | I wonder if AQMD would evaluate a "reference build" of the DIY | sensor, seeing as there is an enclosure as part of the | "reference" implementation. At bare minimum, the airgradient | site should have comparison to highly ranked (by AQMD) sensors, | such as purple air. I'm actually quite surprised there are no | such comparisons on the site. | dognotdog wrote: | IMO, the single biggest problem is that even five-figure | reference instruments disagree considerably in the 0-20 ug/m3 | range, and if you look at the figures of the SCAQMD tests, you | won't see much more than noise in the scatter plots in that | range, with increasing consistency at larger concentrations. | Some of this is due to mismatches in response times and | synchronization, but a lot of it is due to different | disturbances, noise processes, and varying sensitivities to | different particle size distributions in different sensor | types. | | With inexpensive optical scattering sensors, the situation is | even worse. While it is easy enough enough to "count" | individual 2.5um particles, the scattering equations work out | to an order of 10^6 reduction in scattering amplitude, per | particle, going down to 0.3um (when measured with red or infra- | red light), and different particle compositions will scatter | differently. On top of that, the number of particles increases | significantly per unit mass concentration, making the signal | processing a lot harder once one can't just threshold | individual "blips" in the signal. | | Whether the sensors are particle counting or nephelometric in | principle, the basic trade-off is that to see smaller | particles, they need higher amplification factors, which in | turn increases thermal noise, also amplifies stray light, and | makes the device more sensitive to EM interference. Many signal | processing pipelines do simplistic noise filtering, throwing | out much of the baby with the bathwater. | | On top of these principal difficulties, the optical scattering | type sensors are quite sensitive to temperature variation, and | aging of the photoelectronic components, which is why field | tests under varied conditions often depress their accuracy even | further. | | Long story short, it is very easy to build a sensor with | qualitatively good correlations to actual PM concentration, as | long as the PM concentration is sufficiently high, but the | health effects have no threshold, and every added bit of | pollution counts, starting at zero. Unfortunately, commodity PM | sensors are quite bad at quantifying these low, yet meaningful, | ambient pollutant levels, which is probably why IKEA chose | their traffic light thresholds the way the did: not because of | how it relates to health, but because this is what they could | do with a $12 device. | jansan wrote: | My takeaway from the article: Buy the sensor, make sure air | quality is in the "good" range (green light) and you will be | fine. I think I will order a few. | tdrdt wrote: | Exactly. Recently I bought a very cheap CO2 meter. It is | inaccurate, but still accurate enough for 99% of the people. | TheBlerch wrote: | Which CO2 meter did you get, how accurate is it and how much | did it cost? Agreed people just need a meter good enough to | tell them when air quality isn't good. | tdrdt wrote: | The brand is Simr, but I think there are only 3 or 4 meters | that are sold as whitelabel and rebranded a thousand times. | I think it was around $30. | | Outside it measures around 400ppm so the base point is | good. Inside it measures 480ppm with good ventilation. When | someone farts it goes to 2000ppm for a while. So I think it | measures 'alright'. | mh- wrote: | I'd pay $30 for a fart detector. CO2 accuracy would just | be a bonus | numpad0 wrote: | Referring to acetone detectors with lousy linear lookup | feature as "eCO2 sensor" is infuriating but do I must admit | it's an okay reminder for room occupants to open windows... | etimberg wrote: | Agreed. I think I will buy at least one given that the cost is | so low. | blackbear_ wrote: | > Conclusion: [...] However, the defined cut off values for the | air quality and its description as "Good", "OK", and "Not Good" | are not based on science or international recommendations and | create the false understanding that the air is good, when in | fact it is not good at all. | jansan wrote: | Considering that the article was basically written by somone | who is selling competing products I would take this statement | with a truckload of salt. | colechristensen wrote: | I'm not selling anything and unless the writer is outright | lying about the number ranges, I agree with them. The | "green" range is way too lenient and the sensor will only | help you keep away from really terrible air quality, most | people would have it green always while doing nothing at | all. | jansan wrote: | As I understand it "yellow" will indicate better air | quality than "Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups" according | to the US standard. I see a difference between "Unhealthy | for Sensitive Groups" and "really terrible air quality" | as you describe it. | micheljansen wrote: | The article already mentions connecting a Wemos D1 mini, which | lead me to searching for a howto. Stumbled onto this excellent | article by my old friend Guy, complete with assembly pictures: | https://style.oversubstance.net/2021/08/diy-use-an-ikea-vind... | simonebrunozzi wrote: | It's almost incredible that for something as "simple" as an air | quality sensor, particularly in relation to PM2.5 (the most | important metric for most buyers, IMHO), there's no simple answer | as: product X costs $50 and provides 99.X% accuracy; product Y | costs $200 and provides 99.9X% accuracy. | | Two years ago, during one of the most intense fire seasons in | California, I spent a few hours studying different solutions, and | ended up buying a refurbished PurpleAir sensor. It seemed to work | great, but I felt it was a bit too expensive for what it was | doing, too bulky, and in general not as easy to use for the | ordinary person as it should be. | | Same problem with home air filters - if you want to purify the | air in your house, there's too many snake-oil solutions out | there, and few that are worth the spending. | ortusdux wrote: | Finding myself in a similar situation with last years fires, I | have had great luck with the WINIX air filters sold at costco. | I bought 2 on sale for $100/ea. They are 5 staged with HEPA and | charcoal filters, have a built-in air quality monitor of | unknown quality (I should open one up one of these days), and | they have an ok app that allows you to check air quality and | adjust their settings. Each unit includes 2 years of filters, | and they look to be about $30/year/unit to replace after that. | hedora wrote: | Air filtration and monitoring are a classic market for lemons. | | Wirecutter has decent-ish tests of air filters, though they | assume tiny New York apartments, so you have to dig around a | lot to find results for larger units. | | (From reading their review, you'd think >1000 sq ft homes are | unheard of in the US, but the average is closer to 2000 sq ft) | s0rce wrote: | If you have some electronics experience you can buy the | Plantower sensors that PurpleAir uses and connect it to a | microcontroller, there are guides mentioned in the comments | here. | baxuz wrote: | Oh, I was just about to buy a few. | [deleted] | rceDia wrote: | Cheap, easy to use is o.k. not sure of reliability. Another IOT | at home air quality solution is Purple Air. Offers units for | outdoor or indoor. Not as cheap as IKEA but affordable. | https://www2.purpleair.com/ | micheljansen wrote: | $200 for the cheapest model though. That's a factor 20! | Someone1234 wrote: | Informative article with fair, fact based, conclusions. | | I'd like to add that: | | - The VINDRIKTNING is extremely consumer accessible ($11.99, good | build, simple traffic light system). | | - It may be put into spaces that previously had no particulate | air quality monitoring. | | - The spouse-acceptance-factor is extremely high (unlike e.g. a | couple of circuit boards wired together off of Aliexpress). | | There are other consumer friendly offerings, but they aren't | affordable (e.g. Amazon Smart Air Quality Monitor 4x cost, | Airthings 10x cost). That being said, IKEA could fix their | traffic-light system's cut off points for free and should | consider it. | azth wrote: | > - The spouse-acceptance-factor is extremely high (unlike e.g. | a couple of circuit boards wired together off of Aliexpress). | | Which circuit boards do you recommend that have high accuracy | that can be ordered? | ahaucnx wrote: | I can recommed the Plantower 5003 PM sensor. Plantower also | has smaller ones, e.g. 7003 or A003 but we get the best (most | accurate and stable) readings from the 5003 model. | | We also experienced with more expensive ones e.g. from | Sensirion but did not really measure a significant advantage | compared to the Plantower. | ahaucnx wrote: | It is actually pretty easy to build a much more accurate air | quality sensor with the Plantower PM2.5 module as a base and a | Wemos D1 mini as WiFi connected MCU. We have build instructions | on our website on how to do it [1] + a nice 3D printable | enclosure to pass the spouse-acceptance ;). | | [1] https://www.airgradient.com/diy/ | Someone1234 wrote: | I don't think our usages of "accessible" are the same. | | For example expecting to consumers to have a 3D printer and | know how to use one would preclude it from my definition by a | lot. Let alone needing a breadboard and to manually solder on | components onto it. | | Accessible is walking into a store, putting a reasonable | amount of money down, and plugging the thing in. Then | providing output anyone can understand without training or | expertise (e.g. traffic lights, smiley faces, etc). | zahma wrote: | Fortunately this is even easier: | https://sensor.community/en/sensors/ | hedora wrote: | I once bought an air filter that had the pm 2.5 rating | surrounded by a blue/yellow/red halo. The only things it | was missing were logging, and the ability to run the sensor | without the fan. It could change fan speeds based on PM | 2.5, but it was calibrated for a small room, and always ran | way too slow. | | I wish there were standards around thermostats these days. | If there were, then people could sell gizmos that measure | PM 2.5, then (if the windows are closed), use it to set the | speed of the variable speed blower in central air furnaces | accordingly. This would cut our electricity usage by at | least 20-30% during fire season. | | (I'd love to see a legal mandate for interoperability in | this space.) | Tijdreiziger wrote: | > I wish there were standards around thermostats these | days. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTherm | genewitch wrote: | My furnace blower isn't in use any longer, but it has | connections for varying speeds, 6, I think. It only uses | 1, though. I'm unsure of how it would even be used in | practice, as it appears it's just various voltages. | Ideally furnace blowers would be inverter ran so you | could just tell the inverter how fast to run the fan, | rather than changing the supply voltage. | | Mine was a 3.5 ton HVAC, I replaced it with a five head, | five and a half ton "mini split"; while the split air has | had it's share of issues (like, I got a full refund of | the purchase price a few months ago due to manufacturing | defects of the copper lines), I prefer having air | handling done bear the ceiling and using 20x20x1 inch | filters on box fans (or fancy filters if those are your | style) on the floor. The mini split has the inverter | driven motors everywhere, and is completely silent during | normal use. | | I have two AQM, and occasionally one or the other will | register high CO2 or whatever and I will open a couple of | windows and run exhaust fans (built in to the home) to | cycle the air, it takes about 20 minutes. The main | furnace style system did no filtering or air quality | management. | mellavora wrote: | to be fair, ahaucnx didn't use the word 'accessible', he | just said 'easy to build' -- and this is hacker news, not | consumer reports. | | but if you do want 'accessible' in your sense of the word | (pay some money, get a working assembled unit), AirGradient | does sell assembled units. And can provide a back-end | system for remote monitoring if you would like. | Someone1234 wrote: | The comment was edited to remove the word. "Easy to | build" wasn't originally there. | formerly_proven wrote: | I see that there's a tiny 20x20 fan in these modules. Do | these make audible noise or are the fans in these running | rather slowly just to have air movement "better than | convection" through the sensor? | GekkePrutser wrote: | The person who did the original hack on these says they are | audible and the controller is constantly switching the fan | on and off so they reconnected it to 3.3v all the time. So | it runs at a lower speed and constantly. | | See this link under the low noise mod heading | | https://github.com/Hypfer/esp8266-vindriktning-particle- | sens... | beckingz wrote: | Spouse acceptance factor is an underrated engineering | constraint. | monopoledance wrote: | And likely an unnecessary sexist remark. | ev1 wrote: | No sex or gender was implied by the word spouse? | monopoledance wrote: | "technically, ..." | | Yeah, I know. That's why I said likely. C'mon, don't play | stupid. | illumanaughty wrote: | What makes it likely when nothing about sex/gender is | mentioned? Seems like you're the one that has a gender | bias and you're projecting lol | monopoledance wrote: | Sure. Must be me projecting, because sexism in tech does | not exist. | | > Spouse acceptance factor is an underrated engineering | constraint | | So, tell me, how could this be interpreted without | implicit gender assumptions? Get creative, you got this! | simondotau wrote: | Can you explain why it would be sexist, even if we | applied mid-20th century framing to it? Why is it | degrading to describe someone as having a different | threshold of tolerance for aesthetics? | monopoledance wrote: | > having a different threshold of tolerance for | aesthetics | | Lol. How you all trying hard to reframe it, to make it | sound innocent. | | I am not going to explain shit. Look how y'all got | triggered, totally normal reaction... The original post | flagged... If you don't see the generalized "women/wives | don't like nerdy/tech stuff", there is no point to this. | UnFleshedOne wrote: | Well, but is it wrong? Even you knew which gender is less | likely to like bare baseboard with chips sticking out. Do | you expect people to actively disregard their lived | experience? | monopoledance wrote: | > Well, but is it wrong? Even you knew which gender is | less likely to like bare baseboard with chips sticking | out. Do you expect people to actively disregard their | lived experience | | Thanks, for confirming it. Ridiculous, how everyone is | trying to bend interpretation. | LeanderK wrote: | I think being low-cost is very important, otherwise I wouldn't | consider it. I don't live near a major road, but in a small | city. I don't think the air-quality is bad, but I also don't | know for sure. I would not invest a significant amount of money | (more than 10-15EUR). | TheBlerch wrote: | You may find the Breezometer app helpful - I've found it | quite accurate for local outdoor air quality in several | different areas. | Someone1234 wrote: | I've found a lot of indoor sources of contaminants for | example cheese that fell off a Pizza onto the oven floor will | put you into "yellow" the next time you run the oven. | jve wrote: | Really glad this was published. I was looking at airgradient | solution for PM2.5 monitoring, but while thinking - saw this @ | IKEA and bought it. And it is in my short term plan to wire it | with Wemos D1 so I plot values and make sense on whether IKEA air | purifier helps anything or not. Because if I follow the LEDs, | it's chaos - it can be RED for hours with purifier nearby. And | the same without purifier - colors just like to change in my | house. | | I have a question about precision: If the precision +-20mg/m3 - | isn't it actually normal that they "extend" the green led up to | 35mg/m3 then? Because that 12mg/m3 is maybe 32? Uh, looks like | not even PMS5003 can reliably show you that green line with a | high confidence, doesn't it? | | Btw here is a nice thread that shows you how to wire it up with | Wemos D1 and connect to Home Assistant. People compare their | readings with other meters, too. But someone says he bought | multiple of those and even those show different numbers. Someone | sees IEKA values 10x higher (for lower values, but within | specified accuracy) than other sensor https://community.home- | assistant.io/t/ikea-vindriktning-air-... | | But at least they FOLLOW the plot of more accurate sensors. I see | value in that. I want to know if air purifier helps something or | how much it helps. | genewitch wrote: | As a quick aside, both the air quality things I bought say not | to rely on instantaneous readings but instead to use the | aggregator average reading. One has the ability to show | averages and the other is more like "if the value is | consistently higher than normal it's probably correctly 'high'" | - so unless there's some weirdness in the Ikea one it shouldn't | be switching colors unless you are very close to the threshold. | | It is possible that your air filter shakes or vibrates enough | that it's kicking dust up, or you have poor indoor air quality. | How often do you have to replace filters and how dirty are | they? For reference I live in a forest, with pollen and dirt | dust and people and pet dust, poor seals on windows, and open | doors/screens, as well as high humidity year round; I buy the | 3M 1000-1500 filters which are pretty beefy, and they last | about two months before becoming uniformly dark grey on front | and back. Ideally I'd replace them monthly but they're about | $15 each and that adds up across three filters. | | I ask because I don't think my system does anything for VOC, I | don't use carbon filters for the three, so I'm mostly filtering | dust, pollen, clay, etc. | jve wrote: | I bought this unit just ~2 weeks ago? | https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/foernuftig-air-purifier- | black-6... | | So I haven't had chance to change filters yet. | | Yeah, but it has high outgoing airflow, so I suppose it | shakes up dust for me. It changes to red pretty fast when | starting to cook, then hours, hours to bring it down. | thecal wrote: | Direct link to the item: | https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/vindriktning-air-quality-sensor... | GatorD42 wrote: | The color guides seem similar to the IQAir AirVisual Pro and | Apple's weather app. Like the article mentions this is likely to | be inside and most useful for alerting when cooking has caused | significant particle emissions, that's what I use my AirVisual | for. | [deleted] | maltalex wrote: | Say I'm convinced enough to order an AirGradient kit. Is this | accurate? Does it take up to 5 weeks for _most_ destinations? | | > We currently ship approximately 1-2 weeks after receipt of | payments. Delivery takes 2-3 weeks to most destinations (North | America, Europe, Australia). | ahaucnx wrote: | The shipping times mentioned on the website are a bit | conservative and often it is faster. | | We currently have kits in stock and ship within a few days of | orders received. | | Shipping times really vary depending on destination and are | hard to predict but 2-3 weeks is a good estimation. | Foivos wrote: | For the price it is offered, it performs very well. I am not | aware of any other PM2.5 sensor at $10. It cheapest I have seen | is $40. | | You can still use it to get a rough idea of your air quality and | it is definitely "better than nothing (or not having it)". | Semaphor wrote: | The one they use for their DIY Kit [0] actually costs $16-19 | [0] at aliexpress | | [0]: https://www.airgradient.com/diy/ | | [1]: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32944660534.html | djanogo wrote: | Playing devil's advocate, this device is obviously made for mass | market($11.99), what if the WHO/AQI "Good" numbers are too hard | to achieve for general consumers?, the buyers of this device | might be venturing into clean air for the first time and the last | thing they want to see is "orange/red" ALL the time. | blacksmith_tb wrote: | I bought three Vindriktnings when they came out, and on a day | when we had some wildfire smoke making outdoor air quality | around 150 put all three outside. Two went yellow then red, | while the third stayed green... I guess I'd prefer a false | positive to a false negative personally. It's true, they only | cost me $13 each, so not a huge loss but it does suggest there | are quality control problems with either the sensor or the | whole device. | Animats wrote: | That's just particles. No CO2 sensor. | mpalczewski wrote: | Just to add to this: | | CO2 is important because it is a proxy for how much air you are | rebreathing. This is especially important because of Covid. If | you have a few people in a poorly ventilated room co2 will | climb. Whereas in a well ventilated room, it might be nearly as | good as being outside. | | Even for just being at home this is important because if the | air is poorly ventilated it will feel "stuffy". It can affect | how well you are able to think and work. | | Most air quality meter's only measure pollution, and you have | to get an expensive one to measure co2 which is why it is | frequently omitted despite importance. | dsizzle wrote: | Does anybody have any stories of how devices like this revealed a | problem -- what the problem was, does an air filter fix it, etc? | kccqzy wrote: | There was a time when my air quality sensor (a Temtop device) | showed suspiciously high PM2.5 in the kitchen. It turned out | the kitchen oven had too much oil build up inside and required | cleaning. And no, I tried both cheap and expensive air | purifiers; none of them could beat opening the kitchen window | or turning on the range hood (a dedicated one, not the kind | attached to a microwave). In this particular case, it was also | a good reminder to clean the oven. | colechristensen wrote: | You would be surprised how much particulate certain cooking | methods produce, your home can go from 0 AQI to forest fire | levels for a few hours without a filter. | | With the right filter and sensor, you can keep your AQI in the | single digits consistently and react appropriately to particle | buildup. If you have a CO2 sensor as well you can react to CO2 | buildup which is something I have experienced plenty of times | in a modern apartment (not necessarily dangerous levels but | levels high enough that cognitive effects should be expected). | It is hard to keep indoor CO2 levels anywhere near outdoor | levels without forced ventilation with the outside or living in | a large house. | dsizzle wrote: | Do you have any recs for the right filter and sensor? | dylanz wrote: | Someone referred me to https://oransi.com/ and I purchased | one of the large EJ120 models. I've had it running for a | few days and my place no longer has a smell and the air | just feels clean. It's bizarre. | dsizzle wrote: | Doesn't look like any of those have sensors, unless I | missed that? I guess one sensor is your nose in this | case, ha. | amatecha wrote: | Nice, thanks for the recommendation. Is the EJ120 very | audible? Where do you place it? Like someone mentioned | elsewhere, the spouse approval factor is relevant for | what air filtration solution I go with... haha | kfarr wrote: | We have an indoor purple air sensor with a color gradient | indicator (from green all the way to purple and many | gradients in between). Exactly as you've said we are | surprised at the number of times cooking has turned the air | quality horrible indoors. Further we are able to see how when | air outside is smoky from wildfires that the internal air | filters are doing their job. Definitely worth the cost for us | in the Bay Area: | https://www2.purpleair.com/products/purpleair-pa-i-indoor | dirtyid wrote: | I have a xiaomi air purifier with AQ detector. Scrubber seems | to to help with allergies. Detector itself is pretty much a | glorified smoke detector Tamagotchi toy for me. I haven't found | much use for it other than to keep numbers as low / nominal as | I can. For which living in a pretty clean part of the city with | good air quality means being more mindful when I cook to reduce | smoke. That said the high AQ alarm has saved me a couple times | from leaving stove top on / burning pots. Kind of paid for | itself in that sense. | fma wrote: | Yes...formaldehyde exposure is a big issue in the US. Not many | know of it. I bought a new construction house, so it has new | carpet, paint, cabinets, wood flooring etc has an off gas | effect. I honestly it's criminal to allow builders to build | like this, or material to be manufactured like this. That "new | car" smell, that smell when you open up new furniture made of | plywood (the glue contains formaldehyde) . | | There are threshold laws in the US and Europe. There are laws | from OSHA that regulate where you work - but no laws that | regular where you sleep! It's all driven by money, of | course...material with lower formaldehyde cost more to | manufacture. Just walk into a Sherwin Williams and compare | their paint. The highest ones are eco friendly "Low VOC" | (volatile organic compound) - so industry definitely knows | about it. | | The numbers in my house were effectively off the charts and | OSHA would be closing down your employer if you had this | exposure at work. | | Remediation for this is essentially allow to off gas, keep | windows open. Off gassing also is impacted by humidity, so may | be low during winter but high in the summer or when it rains. | | Air filter DOES NOT fix this. The amount of air moved by a HVAC | is peanuts compared to just opening windows for a few minutes. | | California has regulations: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our- | work/programs/composite-wood-prod... | AdrianoKF wrote: | I have a Vindriktning with the ESP8266 makeover sitting on the | desk behind me, feeding its data into my Home Assistant instance. | So far it's working great, except for one annoying detail: I'd | much prefer the forced airflow fan to be on at all times, since | the constant on-off cycling (around every ~10s) is quite audible | and distracting in a quiet environment. | solomonb wrote: | How do you know it is working great? Have you compared it | against other known sensors? | ortusdux wrote: | Does anyone know how amazon's new unit fares? It monitors PM 2.5, | CO, VOCs, temp, & humidity for 70$. I wouldn't buy one | considering the source, but I am interested in how effective it | is. | | https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08W8KS8D3?&linkCode=ll1&tag=andro... | intrasight wrote: | http://energysmartohio.com/indoor-air-quality/which-indoor-a... | | I've always returned to the Dylos sensor as the gold standard | | Another good review of sensors: http://www.aqmd.gov/aq- | spec/evaluations/summary-pm | flybrand wrote: | I work at H&V - we're one of the biggest makers of air filter | media (the rolled goods / fabrics - not the actual filters). | | We love seeing the innovation going on in this space - any | suggestions on how we could better support this growing awareness | of the value of IAQ? | dribblecup wrote: | Sponsor open source code and open source hardware solutions | that DIY folks can put together at $300 or below price point. | | Gold star if you sponsor an independent test of this solution | to verify its effectiveness. | | Bonus points for explaining what matters in terms of testing. | | Self-serving (which is OK in this context) points for | explaining how your product mitigates the problem by | demonstrating the DIY metered results. | jve wrote: | I mean... first of all I would like to hear what are the | consequences of good/bad IAQ (Indoor Air Quality?) | | I'm actually more driven/interested in data/compare it to | other folks, but I don't have a clue what does it mean for my | health. What's the difference between PM2.5, PM10, PM1, | PM0.1. What is TVOC (as in sensor description: benzene,etc | Volatile organic compounds), HCHO (is for formaldehyde). How | do I measure them (parent expands on these questions), what | are the "norms" and, most importantly: WHY should I care | about those values? | | Then ofcourse tips on HOW to decrease those particles. That's | where filter comes in, yeah. First time someone said he just | slaps filter on an air ventilator, I was like: "Wow, it's SO | simple? Yeah, sounds logical" | zahma wrote: | I think I've plugged this here before. Sensor is an open | community trying to track pollution. You can build your own | sensor by ordering a dozen or so parts for 50-100 USD off | AliExpress or Amazon (or wherever else you'd prefer because | there's really nothing extraordinary here). Some sensors even go | down to 1 micrometer. The firmware is built to distinguish | between 1, 2.5, and 10 micrometers. I believe AQI is the standard | metric that is used for the map's visualization. | | It requires minimal technical expertise, no 3D printing, no | soldering, and minimal configuration. | | It's a noble mission, and I find the granularity of data for both | pollution and temperature far more telling than the estimates of | more centralized systems. | | Check out the map and guide here: | | https://sensor.community/ | | https://sensor.community/en/sensors/ | rplnt wrote: | Looking at the map of EU, any idea why the hole in Czech | Republic? | dheera wrote: | I've been using a Adafruit Plantower PMSA003I and it always | reads 0 even if the AQI is 90 at my place. | | It basically always reads 0 if the AQI is anywhere under 200, | and pretty useless. | | I wonder if there is a better I2C sensor that I could use? | dahart wrote: | I don't think using the brand new WHO guidelines is very fair. | Not sure when it was released, but regardless this product was | likely completely designed and manufactured before the WHO | guidelines were published, just a few months ago. | | Also, Airnow.gov still has a published scale that is _worse_ than | the IKEA product. https://www.airnow.gov/aqi/aqi-basics/. Green | is 0-50, Yellow is 51-100, Orange 101-150, and Red 151-200. | ahaucnx wrote: | Airnow is using US AQI and not mg/m. US AQI 50 corresponds to | approx. 12 mg/m. | dahart wrote: | Oh thank you, pre-coffee units fail on my part. | | So I'd guess most air sensors on the market aren't | necessarily classifying their readings into green-good / red- | bad, or at least come with a now-outdated chart. Are there | sensors that have been released and/or updated to match the | new guidelines already? | punnerud wrote: | Archived version (from today): | https://web.archive.org/web/20211206144732/https://www.airgr... | dheera wrote: | I've been using a Adafruit Plantower PMSA003I and it always reads | 0 even if the AQI is 90 at my place. | | It basically always reads 0 if the AQI is anywhere under 200, and | pretty useless. | prashnts wrote: | I have a question since the author is around: | | My sensor was working fine for a few months. It's located near | the area I smoke, so whenever I'm smoking it changes to red | quickly. And after a few minutes (10 or so) it'd go back to | green. | | But for past few weeks it's stuck at red. I disassembled it and | cleaned the intake hole (which is covered with a fabric) and it | worked after. However it went back to displaying red again all | the time. | | So my question is whether this sensor needs frequent cleaning? If | so what are the alternatives? | renewiltord wrote: | Out of curiosity, and with no judgment intended, what is the | purpose of the air quality sensor if you are actively smoking? | Is it a mechanism for you to determine whether the smoking is | exposing other members of the household to second-hand smoke, | etc.? | | I only ask because it seems to me (with no concrete research) | that the smoking risk is much greater than generalized air | quality risk. | ahaucnx wrote: | I don't really have much experience with the PM1006K in the | Ikea sensor but it is not untypical that PM sensors can get | "stuck" and showing high concentrations. | | Sometimes it helps to blow compressed air inside to push out | any dust that might cover the optics but that also often does | not help too much or only temporary. | prashnts wrote: | Thank you! I'll try that. Building an airgradient sensor is | next in my list of projects! | skybrian wrote: | I've seen this and rebooting my Temtop sensor seems to help, | sometimes. | pnathan wrote: | When I was looking into air quality a year or two ago, I realized | that the color-coded "AQI" so popular are not precisely a | scientific analysis, as they are a blend of different | measurements, with cutoffs specified by committee. Different | countries have different formulas for AQI. That doesn't make them | wrong, but it makes them not a "gospel truth". | | I have a Dylos rigged up inside my apartment, feeding particle | measurement data to a serial port, which stores the data on my | own cloud. I don't bother with AQI. | liversage wrote: | Some trivia: 'Vindriktning' is 'wind direction' in Swedish. | jerjerjer wrote: | Anything proven and with a better sensor quality? | ahaucnx wrote: | Author here. I forgot to mention: | | With a Wemos D1 mini (ESP8266) MCU that costs around USD 2.00, | you can pretty easily make the Vindriktning WiFi connected and | get the data to a backend [1]. | | You just need to solder three wires, and there is enough space | within the enclosure to fit the D1 mini inside. | | This would then allow you to get the exact measurements and to | better understand if the "green" is more on the lower end or the | higher side. | | [1] https://github.com/Hypfer/esp8266-vindriktning-particle- | sens... | [deleted] | pingec wrote: | Are there any air quality devices that work well outdoors in | all kind of weather? | 404mm wrote: | Hi, thanks for the article! | | Are there any non expensive sensors you could recommend? I care | about the indoor air quality but it gets very pricey. I have | Awair at home but it covers only one room and the unit runs | $300 a piece :( | ahaucnx wrote: | I am not aware of a good and low-cost wifi connected sensor | but as I mentioned it is relatively easy to build one | yourself. | | If you don't want to buld yourself, there are a few | relatively good non-connected PM 2.5 sensors for example the | "SmartMi PM2.5 Air Quality Monitor" that I can recommend. It | costs around USD 30 here in Asia. | mellavora wrote: | I'm a fan of the airgradient, they offer a very nice DIY. You | can build a quality sensor for under $50. | | https://www.airgradient.com/diy/ | | Components: Wemos D1 Mini USD 2.24 | Wemos OLED display USD 2.47 Plantower PMS5003 PM | Sensor USD 13.89 Senseair S8 CO2 Sensor USD 28.00 | SHT30 or SHT31 Temperature and Humidity Sensor Module USD | 2.55 | | I think the lead article was posted by the founder of | airgradient. I've had some email exchanges with him, he is | supportive and helpful. | geerlingguy wrote: | I can also attest to the inexpensive simplicity (and decent | reliability) of the AirGradient sensors. | bobiny wrote: | I like my Netatmo. I see that it costs $200 on Amazon for | main module + you can connect 3 additional ones for other | rooms -- they cost $86 each. It shows CO2 (notifies when it's | high on smartphone), temperature, relative humidity and noise | level. | [deleted] | ortusdux wrote: | I've been looking at ordering a variety of environmental | sensors from Seeed Studio's Grove line. They look | approachable and affordable, but I cannot vouch for their | quality. | | https://www.seeedstudio.com/Grove-Laser-PM2-5-Sensor- | HM3301.... | tnorthcutt wrote: | You might be interested in the author's DIY kits: | https://www.airgradient.com/diy | fossuser wrote: | Not the OP, but I tried a bunch of these and wrote up details | here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AirQuality/comments/ikf1ed/are | _ther... | | Most of them (including the awair) are complete crap. | | I found one that seems okay and is also one of the cheaper | ones. | | I use and like this one best: | https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DHXQXGK/ | | Simple screen with relevant details, no crappy 2.4ghz wifi, | no crappy app, etc. it just works. | noja wrote: | That looks like the Eve Room | https://www.evehome.com/en/eve-room | 404mm wrote: | Aqmd tested Awair and it came with really good results | actually. I'm struggling to find the report online at the | moment. | fossuser wrote: | It doesn't tell you AQI or PM2.5 so it's results may be | consistent but are fairly useless. | | I'd be curious what report you saw, last I looked the | consistency of the results wasn't even that great either. | nitrogen wrote: | Awair's phone app lists both AQI and PM2.5, and PM2.5 is | available on the device itself by pressing buttons to | change the display. Somewhat confusingly, the indoor AQI | is on the Outdoor tab. | Matrixik wrote: | This one?: https://www.aqmd.gov/aq- | spec/evaluations/summary-pm | 404mm wrote: | Unfortunately no, not this one. I also came across these | but I recall a several page long reports for each device | individually. Tested in controlled environment and | compared with some professional $20k+ sensor. I wish I | could deliver better than promises lol. | ruffrey wrote: | I've used this one [1] then ordered similar ones from Ali | express after getting the Adafruit one working. | | 1. https://www.adafruit.com/product/3686?gclid=CjwKCAiAhreNBh | AY... | stavros wrote: | I can second this one, I soldered four wires to connect it | to an ESP8266 and flashed ESPhome and that was it, it's | worked fine for months. | jb1991 wrote: | It would be great to hear some alternative suggestions for a | consumer air quality meter that is accurate, reliable. I.e. are | the AirThings products good? Or do you have any other | recommendations? | zibzab wrote: | Are you recording sensors output? | | If the sensors have been calibrated in software, wouldn't you | get the uncalibrated values? | newman314 wrote: | Given that the correlation is pretty good, I wonder if it's | sufficient to just add a compensating factor to get a better | sense of air quality. | balaji1 wrote: | Should we just consider buying an air purifier? | | Currently in Bay Area where air outside seems good but these | apartments seem poorly ventilated, old fixtures, old floors, | lots of electronics, etc. | namdnay wrote: | Nice article! One small typo: | | > It can be seen that all three sensors correlate very well but | that the Vindriktning only shows about 65% of the PM2.5 values | of the other two sensors and thus seems to considerably | _understate the air quality_. | | I think here you mean "overstate the air quality" right? Or | "understate the air pollution" | errcorrectcode wrote: | Nope, just nope. Ikea: purveyors of chemical-laden flat packs and | cheap, unrepairable items that don't last. PMS5003 modules are | much better (PM1, 2.5, and 10) and only cost $20. PM1 and 2.5 are | far more damaging to health than PM10. | Swenrekcah wrote: | Almost all furniture I've ever owned has been IKEA. With very | few exceptions they have all been very durable. Repairability | is excellent because everything is designed to be taken apart | by amateurs and spare parts are easily found. They are also | easy when moving because they can so easily be taken apart. | errcorrectcode wrote: | It wouldn't need spare parts if it didn't break. "Very | durable" compared to what since you have no experience with | anything else? Not solid wood furniture. | | A table that weighs 8 lbs and costs 10 dollars should only be | used on a Hollywood set as breakaway furniture for safety. | | You sound like you're rationalizing a religious tribe rather | than making a rational argument. | avh02 wrote: | > It wouldn't need spare parts if it didn't break | | I guess you've never lost a single screw in your life. | errcorrectcode wrote: | Cheap shot. Maybe you shouldn't be commenting today. | [deleted] | maltalex wrote: | > You sound like you're rationalizing a religious tribe | rather than making a rational argument. | | I can't believe that I find myself defending Ikea on HN, | but... what? | | The parent's argument is very rational - in their | experience products have been durable, and the | repairability high for obvious reasons. What's religious | about that? | | I owned several pieces of Ikea furniture myself, and some | were well made out of solid materials. Others were not. | Unsurprisingly, the material quality was strongly | correlated with the price of the item. | errcorrectcode wrote: | Myopia from limited experience is absurdly arrogant. | | I have experience with O'Sullivan, IKEA, and fine | furniture like Stickley. You can't sand or paint sawdust | when it crumbles. If it gets wet, it's ruined. Fine | furniture often appreciates in value, while pressed dust | doesn't, falls apart when disassembled, and cannot be | economically repaired. | slantyyz wrote: | > falls apart when disassembled | | Funny, in the 30+ years that I've had IKEA furniture, | I've moved several times. That you can disassemble IKEA | furniture is a benefit when moving, and I've had no | issues disassembling and reassembling multiple times. | slantyyz wrote: | > You sound like you're rationalizing a religious tribe | rather than making a rational argument. | | So do you, actually. | | IKEA has products of varying price points. Yeah some of the | cheap stuff might be pretty bad. Having said that, I have | family members with IKEA furniture that is now around 30 | years old without issues. | | I have expensive solid wood furniture as well as IKEA | furniture. Some of my own IKEA pieces that I bought after | finishing uni have lasted 30 years and are still in use. I | don't think I've thrown any IKEA furniture out, only passed | them on to other people. | errcorrectcode wrote: | You're appear to be seeking conflict with a lame, | baseless, personal attack because you are also a part of | that cult and can't handle criticism. | | 30 years is nothing. I have 200 year old solid wood | furniture. I seriously doubt anything made from sawdust | will ever last that long. | | I hope you and your family enjoy your IKEA decor. | slantyyz wrote: | > You're appear to be seeking conflict with a lame, | baseless, personal attack because you are also a part of | that cult and can't handle criticism. | | Um, ok. I guess you got me there. | | > 30 years is nothing. I have 200 year old solid wood | furniture. I seriously doubt anything made from sawdust | will ever last that long. | | Ok, good for you then? I don't need anything to last 200 | years, but I wouldn't be surprised if my sawdust | furniture lasts longer than me, since I take pretty good | care of my furniture. | | > I hope you and your family enjoy your IKEA decor. | | Yep. | hedora wrote: | Ikea has multiple price tiers (e.g. "good", better, best). The | bottom tier is basically disposable dorm furniture, which is | likely to be ruined/tossed anyway. Move up a tier if you want | something that's cheaper than other alternatives and lasts. | | The only thing I've found that competes with their mid tier is | used furniture. (Which is obviously better for the environment | than buying new.) | mnw21cam wrote: | I have a folding dining table from ikea. It's %&(*! heavy, | surprisingly so for a small table, and is solid wood. It has | already lasted 15 years and I can see it lasting another 100. | | Agreed, ikea sells some flimsy stuff, but they also sell some | really solid stuff. | robin_reala wrote: | [Disclaimer: IKEA employee] | | We've got buy back / resale programmes globally, and the US | trialled it a couple of months ago. I'd expect to see this | expand over time. | | https://www.ikea.com/us/en/newsroom/corporate-news/ikea- | us-h... | hedora wrote: | Oh wow, that's great! The less resources Ikea consumes, the | better. | | However, I was referring to Craigslist "free" listings and | antique shops. I suspect those will continue to win out on | price or craftsmanship over most stuff Ikea sells. It's | hard to beat items that are free and/or hand-crafted from | old growth hardwood. | | Our house is split roughly evenly between free stuff, | antiques, and ikea stuff. | handrous wrote: | I can only assume people who complain about Ikea--price, | assembly instructions, quality, et c.--have never experienced | other flat-pack furniture, like what Wal-Mart or Target | stock, which is worse on _all_ of those measures. Or most | bulky, ugly, fake-fancy big box furniture, even not flat- | packed. | | I can only beat them on quality-per-dollar by going used, as | you note--mid-century-modern used furniture is expensive (and | is what a lot of Ikea stuff is designed after) but anything | earlier or later is usually very cheap. | | Brands that consistently provide better quality for non-flat- | pack furniture tend to be _way_ more expensive than Ikea, | outside the range of what most normal folks are even | considering. | | And yeah, it's true that their cheapest tier is practically | disposable, but it's hard to complain when an end table costs | $20 or whatever. Of course it's not gonna last decades, at | that price. | stdbrouw wrote: | The choice to display anything under 35 mg/m3 as "good" does not | seem unreasonable at first glance. Indoor PM2.5 can often be | higher than outdoor so that the yearly average will be pushed | down by time spent outside and there is no need to have <5 mg/m3 | inside too. Also, by the author's admission the unit also | measures particles larger than PM2.5 which are less harmful. | There's no point in having a unit that will flash orange or red | for almost everyone almost all of the time. | ahaucnx wrote: | As I mentioned in the article it really depends on the length | of the exposure and how you use the sensor. | | Yes in many places in Europe or North America, the outdoor air | quality is most of the time good. | | However -unfortunately- there are also many places where the | outdoor air quality is very unhealthy most year round and then | an annual exposure to 35 mg/m3 vs 5 mg/m3 makes a big | difference. | aaron695 wrote: | > the outdoor air quality is most of the time good. | | This is the point, knowing when it's bad so you can change | behaviour? | | When does it spike in a forest? You'd guess when it's windy? | But is it seasonal? Does dust matter more the pollen, I think | pollen is more PM 10. Salt from the sea breeze is bad | (PM2.5), how does that mix with leaf matter in Fall? | | > Indoor PM2.5 can often be higher than outdoor so that the | yearly average will be pushed down by time spent outside and | there is no need to have <5 mg/m3 inside too. | | This line form OP is totally incorrect. | | Indoors should be less than outdoors, unless you have a fire | or smoke indoors. | | And why does "yearly average" matter? Smoking cigarettes | (which is exactly the same as what we are talking about) is | not about a "yearly average". | srg0 wrote: | I think it was a conscious design decision to reduce false | alarm rate. Assuming that this low cost device can be/become | very inaccurate, then the designers had two choices: | | 1) Report all alarms as detected. Eventually, the device | becomes a red LED which users learn to ignore. | | 2) Report a problem when the device is reasonably sure there is | a problem. Green light does not necessarily mean that the air | quality is good, but when the LED becomes red, it should be | taken seriously. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-12-06 23:00 UTC)