[HN Gopher] Web3? I have my DAOts ___________________________________________________________________ Web3? I have my DAOts Author : jaypinho Score : 37 points Date : 2021-12-06 21:35 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (networked.substack.com) (TXT) w3m dump (networked.substack.com) | daoismyname wrote: | that Web2 VS Web3 schema pretty much summarize what's wrong with | the new internet based on brand identities instead of technical | merits. | | A brief rebuttal: | | - Twitter can censor any account or Tweet: yes, but Twitter is | not the web, you can host your own tweets, even for free. | | - Web3 tweets are better because decentralized: translations -> | your thought are going to be forever visible to everybody and not | even the author will be able to remove them. Of course any of | those new shiny web3 logs can fail and everything can disappear | with them. | | - Payment services may decide to not allow payments: Web3 | payments can do the same. There is nothing that forces me to | accept a payment and if that was true, that would be a problem. I | __do want__ to refuse payments from criminals and I do wanna know | if someone is. | | - servers for gig economy may go down. web3 servers can go down | as well, they are made of hardware and maintained by people too. | If, for example, Uber can't keep their servers running despite | their profits depend on them, imagine what would happen if Uber | was running on someone else's node who DGAF if they lose money or | not... | | Now imagine what would happen to me, a completely unknown | anonymous individual, with no power. | | What happens if something goes wrong and "my income is affected"? | | Who is responsible? | | Who can I sue in case the SLA in the agreement haven't been | guaranteed? | | Will "the decentralized network of 1000s of computers" reimburse | me? | whoisjuan wrote: | I think the problem with the current state of Web3 is that it | really doesn't seem to solve meaningful, mainstream problems yet. | | Even the most widely accepted use case which is crypto-currency | fails to break out of the theoretical value outlined in the | different white papers. I own several crypto-currencies and there | hasn't been a single moment in which I thought of buying | something with a crypto-currency. I have crypto-currencies | because I'm speculating in their asset class value, not | necessarily because I'm betting on their utility. | | Now, I know that crypto coins are indeed used in real | service/product transactions, but I think there's a difference | between the present economical use of cryptos and its potential | mainstream use where cryptos can effectively replace fiat | currencies in super wide economic settings. | | I believe that Web3 would happen but I honestly can't see a clear | trajectory for Cryptos, NFTs, DAOs etc to become effective | instruments that replace existing Web2 instruments. | | In fact the reason why everything in Web3 feels like BS right now | is because everything in this space uses Web2 distribution. | People promoting NFTs on Twitter feels a little bit like someone | faxing you a webpage. Owning the rights to a random JPEG is | something that feels too abstracted from the present Web2 mental | model and value proposition. | Uehreka wrote: | I said this in another comment on this post, but check out ENS. | I've been a blockchain skeptic for a long time (and still am | about art NFTs and most other things) but the idea of "SSO | without a company attached" feels like something the mainstream | public actually does want (think of all the negative public | sentiment around big tech companies harvesting data and the | grudging acceptance people have of their dependence on FB and | Google for identity and easy sign-in). It's also something that | requires blockchain and can't be done without a "decentralized | consensus" about who owns what username (this is how you get | around relying on a particular company). And ENS works now, | it's the kind of thing you could just go ahead and add to a web | app you're working on without having to wait for "the tech to | arrive" or anything. | | Again, I'm still skeptical about most of this stuff, but this | one thing seems like a pretty good and somewhat practical idea. | carlosdp wrote: | > The root node [under which all ENS domains are registered] is | presently owned by a multisig contract, with keys held by | trustworthy individuals in the Ethereum community. | | For what it's worth, this is changing as we speak. ENS recently | had a very successful launch of a DAO [1] which will soon be in | control of these contracts, therefore making it fully | decentralized. It's also already impossible for anyone (not even | the root holder, be it mult-sig or DAO) to revoke your ENS | registration. | | Also, NBA Top Shot is a _very_ cherry-picked example. I 'm not | even sure I'd classify those as NFTs right now, given they are | completely separated from the broader ecosystem and not yet | interoperable at all. | | [1] | https://ens.mirror.xyz/5cGl-Y37aTxtokdWk21qlULmE1aSM_NuX9fst... | laurex wrote: | There's a kool-aide concern here, which is: to play in the web3 | world, you seem to need to have either a LOT of capital that is | fine to lose or have access to this small community. The | communities I've joined are indistinguishable from Twitch | communities where there's a lot of bro high-fives and mutual | appreciation for the riches being invented, not much concern for | what the side effects might be. And because there's an advantage | in staking, people who can afford to just leave money in these | volatile currencies get richer. Not saying this is really any | different than the world in general, but it seems like web3 | advocates paint a picture of "disruption" that feels more like | "entrenchment" from an economic vantage. | TrackerFF wrote: | RE: Censorship | | You often see advocates of decentralization hail networks for | being pro-immutability, battling censorship. | | How does it deal with data you absolutely do _NOT_ want to be | shared and propagated around? I'm talking about things like CP, | terrorist media, fake news, scams/frauds, and what not. | ccamrobertson wrote: | If you view 'decentralization' as a bucket of technologies | underpinned by cryptographic primitives and blockchains, it | doesn't. | | This is similar to other technologies like cash, paper, and | computers* which also don't, as technological phenomena, | implicitly include censorship as a feature. | | *it looks like consumer computing is moving away from general | 'free' computing to ASICs from folks like Apple which likely | will include built-in censorship features moving forward. | etaioinshrdlu wrote: | Crypto proponents are in favor of there being no technical | restrictions that prevent such content being posted. | | An interesting possibility is that illegal content gets | permanently inserted into a blockchain, which could make | running, for example, an ethereum node very illegal. | api wrote: | > An interesting possibility is that illegal content gets | permanently inserted into a blockchain, which could make | running, for example, an ethereum node very illegal. | | I've heard this called a "pee in the pool attack." | | Block chains like Ethereum and Bitcoin have one intrinsic | defense: they don't support very large data objects. So that | makes inserting CP problematic. But someone determined enough | and willing to spend money could insert a really horrible | image as a series of transactions. | thebean11 wrote: | At that point you'd need additional data (which | transactions) and software in order to stitch things back | together, at which point is it the (disjointed, seemingly | random) data that's illegal, or the instruction set that | allows you to assemble it into something illegal? | adamrezich wrote: | has there been a documented case of this happening yet? one | would think that there _must_ have been, at some point, by | now. but then I suppose if someone were to make a program | that accesses intentionally-inserted distributed immutable | data in a blockchain and reconstructs an illegal file | (probably an image), then I suppose that executable or | source repository itself would then be taken down by | authorities and its author(s) prosecuted. but to my | knowledge, this hasn 't actually happened yet... | wildbook wrote: | How about cases where there's not much data involved but | it's still questionable whether or not the data is legal to | share? | | Leaked encryption keys for example come to mind, but I'm | sure there's other examples. | jedimastert wrote: | I think if you look at the current decentralized options, | especially Tor, the community has already made these decisions. | jeroenhd wrote: | In most cases, the answer is simple: you don't. | | For example, IPFS "solves" this by allowing requests for | takedowns per gateway. The upside of IPFS is that you can go | after every host, the downside is that everyone knows what | content you visit. The network still propagates the illegal | content, so you end up with a witch hunt. | | It's probably a good thing paedophiles haven't widely | discovered IPFS+TOR. | GrayShade wrote: | How are they dealt with today? I haven't followed the | blockchain tend, but IIRC there were programs that could encode | arbitrary data into the blockchain history. What happens if | someone puts CP in there? | knownjorbist wrote: | Aside from the usual litany of talking points from the last | decade that everyone is well aware of, this person is missing the | forest for the trees when discussing "composability". Nevermind | that this seems to be starting from their priors and working | backwards. | | Here's a much more level-headed(and detailed) analysis of what is | interesting, and not-so-interesting, about "web3": | | https://www.psl.com/feed-posts/web3-engineer-take | jaypinho wrote: | Spent weeks investigating the mania around web3 and regret to say | it does not live up to the hype. | theplumber wrote: | I think it depends much of expectations. It actually exceeded | my expectations. I recently built a small and useless program | in solidity and deployed it within few hours. It's definitely | better than what we had available years ago (i.e. on bitcoin | platform) and I see a future for it. I think it has chances to | survive in this age of censorship and surveillance. | | Something that really surprised me was the signing/metamask | integration(a kind of webauthn). I would definitely use that to | login into various websites instead of the invasive | facebook/google login plugins we see all over the web. There is | even something akin to oauth2 but without the requirement to | have "developer keys". | justicezyx wrote: | Don't you need to pay someone to deploy the program? | lukeramsden wrote: | On the testnet you can get free ETH to deploy contract(s). | TigeriusKirk wrote: | Or run your own private chain/node for trying things out. | | Recently I've been working at converting an existing web | business to web3 (at least my interpretation of web3), | with the goal of making it all decentralized. My | impression at this point is that it's mostly possible but | not all that practical. | | It might make more sense if I reimagine what the business | _is_ , which is part of my exploration here. | theplumber wrote: | ETH is expensive but there are other "cheaper" blockchains | compatible with ETH whose "gas" price is negligible. You | can also deploy for free on the "testnet" | serverholic wrote: | "Sign-In with Ethereum" will be huge. I purposefully avoid | "Sign-in with Google" because putting too much power in a | centralized authority terrifies me. | | I'd much rather have the convenience of "Sign-In with X" but | backed by something I have control over. | aditya wrote: | this already exists, just not widely deployed on web2. | 'Connect Wallet'. | Sohcahtoa82 wrote: | What's the recovery if your private Ethereum key gets | deleted, or worse, stolen? | | If you're signing in via some other 3rd party, you can | change your password. | | I'm just trying to think of how "Sign in with Ethereum" | would work if you're trying to get your technophobic | grandma that clicks on phishing links and responds to the | County Password Inspectors [0] when they call to use it. | | [0] https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-02-20 | knownjorbist wrote: | Social Recovery is one of a couple methods people have | proposed: | | https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/11/recovery.html | yepthatsreality wrote: | Like OpenID? | theplumber wrote: | OpenID is a closed system both to the end-user and the | website owner based on secrets(`state` `code`, developer | keys) from identity providers(google/facebook) not | cryptography. | Uehreka wrote: | I'm a long time blockchain skeptic (check my comment | history) but I recently came around on the SSO stuff and | can vouch for it enough to say the magic words: it is in | fact a novel thing that cannot be done without blockchain | using pre-existing crypto or auth tech. | | The reason is: With private key auth alone, you don't | have identity, just a non-human readable public key, and | no universally known exclusive association with a | particular username. With OpenID or WebAuthn or any of | that, you would still need a company or org to keep a | centralized database of everyone's credentials and user | info. With Blockchain you don't: As long as the Ethereum | blockchain keeps going, your info (username: | "johndoe.eth" public_key: "420abc" avatar: "some HTTP or | IPFS url") will stay stored. This is the exact precise | thing blockchains are unusually good at doing, and given | how much people these days are hating on big tech | companies managing their identities and harvesting data | in the process, "SSO with no company attached" seems like | a thing people actually want. | | I'm still highly skeptical of art NFTs and crypto as | currency and lots of other blockchain stuff, but in this | one case they've won me over. This seems legit. | [deleted] | api wrote: | IMHO this could be the "killer app" and is something I | might actually use if it got sufficient traction and | support. | | OpenID gives a few organizations like Google, Okta, and | Microsoft "root on the entire world." It terrifies me. | knownjorbist wrote: | A key "ah-ha" moment for me was realizing that your | wallet is your login on every dApp that's ever existed or | ever will exist. It's pseudonymous and developers sort of | get various things for free out of it as a | result(payments, authorization, authentication) | Uehreka wrote: | > I think it depends much of expectations. | | Agreed (and I agree that ENS and the SSO stuff looks | interesting). The problem here is that the crypto community | are the ones setting the high expectations. | k__ wrote: | I spent months investigating the mania around web3 and am glad | to say it lived up to the hype. | | Even if decentralization and payment protocols only deliver on | 10% of their promises, that's a game changer. | stolenmerch wrote: | I really don't think that Mona Lisa example is correct. Maybe I | misunderstand NFTs, but wouldn't it be more like a printmaker who | can make as many copies as desired, but the museum sells | something like the Artist's Proof and documents the sale in an | official newsletter that goes out to all members? Yes, everyone | else has a print or a poster version, but only one buyer has the | Artist's Proof and can prove its provenance. Not a perfect | analogy, but closer in my opinion. | Sohcahtoa82 wrote: | NFTs don't necessarily represent ownership of the underlying | asset. | | They're like minting a commemorative coin celebrating the | asset, and only minting a single coin. The coin does not | represent ownership of the asset. It's just...a coin. A token. | Supposedly, the uniqueness gives it value, but if I decide to | record a single fart, that fart is unique, but the uniqueness | does not inherently create value. | | An NFT for the Mona Lisa caries no benefits or rights, other | than saying "I own the NFT for the Mona Lisa". It's inherently | worthless, with a supposed value being created from absolutely | nothing. | | Anyone buying NFTs either doesn't know what they're actually | paying for, or thinks they're going to be able to find a | greater fool who will eventually be willing to pay more. | stolenmerch wrote: | Right, and that's why the physical art analogy breaks down. | Was just trying to come up with a slightly better physical | art analogy. Copies are possible, forgeries are possible, and | provenance is a real challenge. However with NFTs it all | takes an abusive amount of electricity. | jimkleiber wrote: | I like the idea of them being a commemorative coin. The | analogy I've been using is that NFTs are like signatures. | There may be a famous photo of Elvis that anyone can print, | however, if someone had that photo printed and | authentically signed by Elvis, it could be worth a lot more | money, if people want to have the signature. If Elvis | signed 500,000 of that same photo, the signature may not be | worth much. | | Perhaps in the future if NFTs get some sort of legal | backing and therefore more enforced property rights, maybe | it'll be different, however I think the analogy works well | for now. | | Thoughts? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-12-06 23:00 UTC)