[HN Gopher] A submarine's weakness: its software? ___________________________________________________________________ A submarine's weakness: its software? Author : jwithington Score : 113 points Date : 2021-12-07 16:07 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (fixvms.com) (TXT) w3m dump (fixvms.com) | pikzel wrote: | This webpage could be a few lines html and css, but uses 172 node | modules. 4240 files. The repo is 17.6 MB. We Deserve Much Better. | jwithington wrote: | how do you see this?? i'm a newbie to web development and | selected https://github.com/yuanqing/single-page-markdown- | website for something clean and minimal in design. | | but those are crazy stats! what would you suggest for newbies | like me? | joconde wrote: | Jekyll is quite popular and generates very light webpages. I | find the result pleasant to use. https://jekyllrb.com | OldHand2018 wrote: | The author seems to know about submarines, so let's give him (?) | the benefit of the doubt... But without knowing the cause of the | accident, the author is calling for a specific change. This seems | problematic. Perhaps there is a very good reason that the | computer system performs like this. | | Also, if you have the computer checking everything, then those 5 | people that are supposed to be redundantly computing the | navigation plan are highly likely to be less diligent. Human | nature and all. Isn't that likely to result in a worse outcome? | zentiggr wrote: | There is a specific reason for the system performing like | that... a development process that lets somebody in a far off | office choose software components for | financial/political/office politics reasons, wires together | separate programs doing each task that are developed separately | with barely any integration testing until it's too damn late to | fix anything, and a whole host of other "our team is going to | do this part using X" bullshit that winds up with the overall | system looking like somebody tried to use Legos in one part, | Lincoln logs in another, pottery cast clay elsewhere, and has | three different interconnection schemes because each level of | bureaucracy involved mandated a different buzzword when it got | to review things two to five years after the last level saw it. | | At least, that's what it looked like when I saw it in '98. It | doesn't sound like it's gotten any better. | jwithington wrote: | I think you're identifying one of the strongest argument | against my claims. Automated, or computer assisted, reviews | will only increase error rate because humans will assume that | computers took care of it all. | | You're probably on to something. When radar was first rolled | out to all Navy ships to assist navigation (post WWII), | accident rates actually _increased_. | | My hunch is that Sailors drove ships riskier thinking that | radar would save them. A bit like the findings of seat-belt | safety laws: no impact on fatalities. | | But I'm not agitating for full-blown computer reviews. It just | feels like the software should have the computing capabilities | of Excel lol | limbicsystem wrote: | That thing about seat belts - really? https://www.cdc.gov/tra | nsportationsafety/seatbeltbrief/index... | OldHand2018 wrote: | Fair enough. Perhaps something like doing checks _after_ the | plans have been manually computed, and then errors /warnings | are flagged and used for evaluations and training. But then | again, how is the culture of the Navy? Would such data be | used exclusively to punish people? | Jtsummers wrote: | It's a tradeoff. Trusting computers too much gets you into | trouble (loss of navigation skills, over reliance on a | potentially faulty system), but having to do things manually | and depending on discipline also doesn't scale. You need to | maintain enough discipline (validate the computer's results) | but still have a better source than "Well, myself and three | others looked at this chart for an hour and couldn't find | anything above 350FT". | | Discipline works until time pressure causes discipline to | relax, and then the loosened discipline becomes the norm | (normalization of deviance). There is no reliable way to | restore discipline (in a timely fashion) after that happens, | and then a collision would become inevitable. If you only | rely on discipline, you're bound to fail. If you have means | of relieving the reliance on discipline and don't use them, | you're making a tragic mistake. | riskneutral wrote: | Everything about this hilarious and terrifying. It's hilarious | and terrifying that they couldn't drive a $3 billion nuclear | submarine without crashing it. That the navigation software on | the sub is so bad that there is a website about it describing | how its navigation software takes "minutes" to zoom in and out | of maps. That if the sub were to be equipped with smarter and | smarter autopilot software, the humans operators would | eventually forget how to pilot the sub themselves the way that | commercial airline pilots keep forgetting how to fly. | GekkePrutser wrote: | > That if the sub were to be equipped with smarter and | smarter autopilot software, the humans operators would | eventually forget how to pilot the sub themselves the way | that commercial airline pilots keep forgetting how to fly. | | Well the lack of situational awareness with EFIS (glass | cockpit) systems is a known issue. Pilots tend to 'switch | off' because of the low workload and then when something goes | wrong they're not aware of the situation because they haven't | been following along. | | This has contributed so some incidents such as the AF 447 | crash where the pilots were basically unaware of the actual | situation of the plane and flew it straight into the ground | (well, sea). | | I can understand the Navy wants its crews to be more involved | for that reason (and perhaps also because the enemy might | deliberately instill confusion by messing with navaids etc), | but I think there should be at least a warning if you try to | do something that's known to be stupid. | kbenson wrote: | > Also, if you have the computer checking everything, then | those 5 people that are supposed to be redundantly computing | the navigation plan are highly likely to be less diligent. | Human nature and all. Isn't that likely to result in a worse | outcome? | | I'm not sure I've even seen a situation in practice where an | additional safety check made the situation worse. Those same | people that shirk their duties and half-ass their job under the | assumption the computer will just find the problems generally | make a plethora of other mistakes if a computer isn't there to | double check. | | Computer verification of work, usually done by applying rules | and heuristics, is useful and when done well, and roughly | analogous to an additional human checker IMO. If policies and | expectations are set right, it's a better outcome. | | This may or may not follow for the initial calculation being | done by computer and then checked by a human. Some of the | competitiveness of people to make sure they do the job well and | don't need fixes from a computer/human checker go right out the | window and perhaps that does lead to complacency. | soneil wrote: | > Also, if you have the computer checking everything, then | those 5 people that are supposed to be redundantly computing | the navigation plan are highly likely to be less diligent. | | This is surprisingly easy to fix. If the computer notices | before the human, call that a failure. Say, if the computer | spots terrain higher than the current depth within X radius | (that wasn't intentionally planned for), that's a failure. | | I assume the military already has a regime in place to handle | "you dun goofed". You can string failsafes after goofed but | before the wall. | toast0 wrote: | > Those same people that shirk their duties and half-ass | their job under the assumption the computer will just find | the problems generally make a plethora of other mistakes if a | computer isn't there to double check. | | If they half-ass, but follow the computer fixes, maybe nobody | knows they were half-assing. If they half-ass and other | people fix it, their half-assing is known and remediations | are available. | kbenson wrote: | It's pretty easy to have the computer log and/or notify | about failures. Presumably if a person is double checking | and notices repeated failures, they would be expected to | notify superiors that there's a problem somewhere. I'm not | sure why we would assume the computer would do any less. | 9999px wrote: | Yeah...sure...it hit a "seamount" - it's _definitely_ not out- | classed and out-matched by Chinese unmanned submarine drones. | | https://metallicman.com/uss-connecticut-black-operations-sub... | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeJLwUfLcEU | groby_b wrote: | The guy running that blog "has been in MAJestic", "which | brought you velcro, LEDs, nanotechnology" | | Uhuh. Right there, a highly trustworthy source. | [deleted] | toxik wrote: | I think the US misses the cold war and is trying its damn best | to find a new adversary to compete against. It's been said | before, winning the cold war made the US arrogant and | complacent. | | Nb I'm talking about countries as if they were people, I do not | mean that people in these countries are thinking these things. | kcb wrote: | Something doesn't add up here. If it's China's official policy | that it blatantly and deliberately attacked a USN warship, why | aren't we at war with them? They've never directly attacked any | other US ships or planes in the South China Sea. | Wohlf wrote: | Because even if true neither country wants to go to war, | countries test each other's military responses all the time | and it never goes much further than sending in jets/ships to | watch each other while some diplomatic phone calls take | place. | kcb wrote: | Blowing up a USN warship is not testing, it's action. | jmnicolas wrote: | Yes but it wasn't supposed to be there. Are you going to | start WW3 for material damages? Even if the entire sub | had been destroyed, would you start WW3 for a few hundred | people? | | No. You take the losses, put a brave face and spin a | story about navigation error. Then if you think you | weren't in the wrong and they need to get a lesson you | destroy something of theirs a while later. | | Btw, I'm not saying that's what's happened. I'm just | hypothesizing that in case it happened like that they | wouldn't start WW3 over it. | pphysch wrote: | Foreign spies are caught and punished/executed probably every | year more or less. And governments have virtually no | incentive to admit "hey my spy got caught by the enemy". | Ditto for stealth submarines. | kcb wrote: | It's really hard for me to believe the USN allows countries | to blow up their warships then has the courtesy to hide it | domestically. The whole purpose of the USN is a show of | force and power projection. If countries are allowed to | take that sort of action without immediate retaliation that | is all gone. | pphysch wrote: | Why is that hard to believe? | | Firstly, they didn't blow it up. If the Chinese story is | true, they surgically disabled it. Either way, no | American blood was shed. | | Secondly, the modus operandi of the contemporary Pentagon | is walking a fine line between a) inflating foreign | threats to secure Congressional funding and b) deflating | any challenges to the perception of American military | supremacy. Defending Americans from actual threats is a | distant follower. | kcb wrote: | > This was an intentional placement. This locations was | as far away as possible > from the nuclear power plant | for a close local directed-explosion attack. | | > It was then ignited, and ended up causing serious | damage to the bow of the boat > and a complete loss of | sonar sensing ability. | | Surgically disabled by blowing it up. | dragonwriter wrote: | > If the Chinese story is true | | It is not "the Chinese story"; were it the actual | official Chinese story we wouldn't be getting it by this | circuitous route, we'd get it from Chinese state media, | both in Chinese for domestic consumption and English | (etc.) for international consumption. | | There are many criticisms you can make of the PRC, but | "they are incapable of assuring that their official | position is heard clearly and loudly" is...not among | them. | pphysch wrote: | > There are many criticisms you can make of the PRC, but | "they are incapable of assuring that their official | position is heard clearly and loudly" is...not among | them. | | What an incredible claim. Americans think China is | literally committing a Holocaust right now. | Chinese/Russian media is soft/hard censored on the | biggest Western social platforms and official narratives | from those governments almost never make it to | American/Western ears without massive amounts of spin | from Western state/corporate media. | | Besides, there is a strong explanation for why Beijing | didn't broadcast this: they don't want to inflame | tensions, especially in the runup to the Olympics. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Americans think China is literally committing a | Holocaust right now | | Yes, but they aren't exactly unaware that China's | official position is that they are not, and the awareness | of this official position doesn't come through random | minor internet sites reporting "official" accounts | machine translated after being received from anonymous | friends who got release that were authorized by Beijing. | | Getting the official story heard loudly and clearly and | getting it believed are too very different goals. | | > Besides, there is a strong explanation for why Beijing | didn't broadcast this: they don't want to inflame | tensions, especially in the runup to the Olympics. | | Yes, that's a very plausible reason why, even if this | highly improbable story were true, it wouldn't be China's | _official story_ right now. | | It's not, however, even a remotely plausible reason why | it would be the _official_ story and simultaneously | _completely absent from official media_ and yet still | authorized for release via the channel supposedly used | here. | pphysch wrote: | Don't confuse "official" with "true". Beijing is happy, | officially, to accept Washington's story that they | clumsily crashed into a rock. | | The "true" story is really only relevant to the military | planners on both sides. And presently it doesn't serve | either of their interests to broadcast it publicly. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Don't confuse "official" with "true". | | I'm not. | | The claim in the article which provided the story is that | it is the "official Chinese story". The article carefully | avoids claiming that the story is _true_ , though it | obviously wants people to conclude that. | | > Beijing is happy, officially, to accept Washington's | story that they clumsily crashed into a rock. | | Right. So the simplest claim in the article about the | story--that it is China's official story--is simply | false. | | > The "true" story is really only relevant to the | military planners on both sides. And presently it doesn't | serve either of their interests to broadcast it publicly. | | Or, maybe the true story is what is officially broadcast, | and the one with the obvious lie about the nature of the | story is false beyond just that obvious lie? | jmnicolas wrote: | > then has the courtesy to hide it domestically | | If you don't hide it, you will be forced to retaliate. Do | you start WW3 for material damages because your public | opinion's pride has been hurt? | kcb wrote: | It's not pride that has been hurt...it's a US navy | warship being blown up. | echelon wrote: | We might already be at war, and it seems to be escalating. | | The Biden admin is growing cold to both China and Russia. | They just announced they won't support the 2022 Olympics. | | Cyber warfare and espionage are reaching new peaks. | | Russia just blew up a satellite, which caused NASA astronauts | to take shelter. Target practice for fog of war. | | China demonstrated their orbital hypersonics and glide | platform, which is hard to track and defend against. Nuclear | MAD that defeats US countermeasures. | | Russia is amassing forces to take over Ukraine and Georgia. | | China is increasing incursions over Taiwanese airspace. | | China is delisting from US exchanges. | | The US pulled out of Afghanistan, freeing up personnel and | logistics. The best reason to do this was to prepare for a | two front war. They could have otherwise remained deployed | indefinitely. | | Australia and Japan are buffing their navies and warfare | capabilities substantially. | | The US is in the awkward period between upgrading existing | systems and designing next generation weapons. | | We might really go to war in 2022 if China and Russia think | they can take Ukraine and Taiwan. A hot war. | [deleted] | pphysch wrote: | Let's examine these claims: | | > The Biden admin is growing cold to both China and Russia. | | Washington has been cold to both nations for the better | part of a decade/century depending on your perspective. | | > They just announced they won't support the 2022 Olympics. | | False. Virtually all American athletes are attending. | Whether the Biden admin is diplomatically boycotting or | _wasn 't even invited_ is a matter of perspective. | | > Cyber warfare and espionage are reaching new peaks. | | > Russia just blew up a satellite, which caused NASA | astronauts to take shelter. Target practice for fog of war. | | > China demonstrated their orbital hypersonics and glide | platform, which is hard to track and defend against. | Nuclear MAD that defeats US countermeasures. | | > Russia is amassing forces to take over Ukraine and | Georgia. | | > China is increasing incursions over Taiwanese airspace. | | When a historically passive person starts acting | assertively, an unscrupulous observer might judge it as | aggression. Russia and China are demonstrating that | Washington is no longer the undisputed military superpower | it once was, that it can't bully anyone it wants. This has | critical geopolitical implications but does not necessarily | point to an inevitable war. | | The fact is that USA has hundreds of overseas military | bases while Russia and China combined have less than 10. | Many of those American bases are on the doorstep of both | competitors. Until China is parking carriers in the Gulf of | Mexico, it hasn't even begun to reciprocate American | military assertiveness/aggression. | | > China is delisting from US exchanges. | | ...and relisting on e.g. HKEX which is historically | accessible to international investors from America and | elsewhere. More likely, Chinese companies are hedging | against the collapse of Wall St. (if the Fed raises rates) | or the USD (if they don't). | | > The US is in the awkward period between upgrading | existing systems and designing next generation weapons. | | Like the F35? Pretty sure that failure has nothing to do | with "bad timing" and everything to do with the corrupt | state of Washington and the Pentagon. | | > We might really go to war in 2022 if China and Russia | think they can take Ukraine and Taiwan. A hot war. | | Why, though? Whose interests does it really serve? | handrous wrote: | > > > The US is in the awkward period between upgrading | existing systems and designing next generation weapons. | | > Like the F35? Pretty sure that failure has nothing to | do with "bad timing" and everything to do with the | corrupt state of Washington and the Pentagon. | | IIRC this concern is mainly about attack sub | capabilities, and the US navy _will in fact_ enter a | period of exceptionally poor preparedness for operating | in the waters around Taiwan in the event that war breaks | out, for a few years between about 2025 and 2030. This is | due to procurement decisions made years and years ago, | since there 's huge lead-time on building new ships. | | Whether this actually means anything--I don't know. | dragonwriter wrote: | > If it's China's official policy that it blatantly and | deliberately attacked a USN warship, why aren't we at war | with them? | | It is not China's official position, which is why this | supposed "official story" is not sourced to any official | Chinese media, but to an email, supposedly sent by the | author's anonymous friend, that contains information that was | supposedly authorized by Beijing on the "official Chinese | story" which nevertheless the PRC has _not_ released through | any of its many state controlled media outlets. | | (It plausibly could have been authorized by Beijing for this | exact use: divisive propaganda through multiple steps of | deniable cutouts that has nothing to do with either the facts | or China's official public position. Or it could just be an | invention of the author, or the author's anonymous, | unaccountable friend.) | nick238 wrote: | The 'Forum' link goes to | https://github.com/invictus2010/fixvms/issues which seems to be a | private repo. Is that intended? | jwithington wrote: | thanks nick! that is not intended. let me make it public. | | i called it a forum because readers in the military-world may | be less familiar with "issues" in github ;) | mprovost wrote: | When I saw the URL I assumed the article was going to reveal that | modern submarines are still running VMS on DEC Alphas (or a | VAX!). Honestly I was surprised when that wasn't the case. | pacman128 wrote: | I thought the same at first. I worked on the Air Force AWACS E3 | (https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact- | Sheets/Display/Article/1045...) program as a contractor in the | 2000's. It had dual IBM-360 computers and wireframe-like | graphics for their radar displays at the time. This was the | Block 30/35 version. It looks like from the link that they may | have completely transitioned to the Block 40/45 version which | replaced the 360's. They were talking about this move when I | worked there 16 years ago. | bmmayer1 wrote: | This is fascinating, but also fascinating that submarines have | been operated in real world conditions based purely on sonar for | over 100 years. | flatline wrote: | My first house is on that map of the Severn River. I have that | nautical chart printed out hanging on a wall. | [deleted] | mightyham wrote: | Crappy pieces of software like that cannot simply be wholly | blamed on the vendor. It's up to navy leadership to decide how to | distribute funds to vendors to develop software. I wouldn't be | surprised if there is a high up navy officer who likes VMS, | thinks that the missions planing process is fine the way it is, | and doesn't want to allocate money for anything beyond bug fixes. | Things like that happen all the time in government software | contracting. | jwithington wrote: | i dont doubt this! someone is accepting this work despite | decades of submarine officers losing their minds at it | ok_dad wrote: | That's because the Navy doesn't rely on software to do these | checks, the officers and crew are supposed to ensure they don't | crash. This idea of having software check things is dead in the | water, because of that. The real problem is training, and much | like any other human problem, this one cannot be solved through | technology; it has to be solved by culture changes. | | VMS, however, was horrible a decade ago, and I'm not surprised | it's still horrible. We used paper charts rather than VMS back | then because it was so horrible. | KineticLensman wrote: | > This idea of having software check things is dead in the | water, | | I accept that people have to make the judgement calls and sign- | off, but if the maps are in fact accurate why couldn't the | computer at least issue a warning / red flag or similar when | there are obvious problems (requested depth within some | threshold of the actual depth). | | I came across a scenario editor for a land training simulator | that didn't provide any way of testing intervisibility between | two points. The course authors wasted vast amounts of time when | assigning vehicle positions clicking around maps to see if | potential targets were in fact visible to the trainees. An auto | check would have allowed the course authors to use their | expertise to do things that couldn't be automated, building | better scenarios faster. | ok_dad wrote: | I agree in the case of planned maneuvers for sure, however if | you want the result of the "5 Whys" (kinda joking) then my | answer is: because the contractors that build this stuff SUCK | ASS. Sorry for the harsh language, but I worked on a pre-com | ship during my time (an LCS, go figure) while it was being | built, and the absolute lack of standards on every level | (from the top of the SWO military chain through the dogshit | contractors) is part of what made me leave the Navy. | | I'm not gonna complain about it too much, but man oh man, I | think you and I could build better software than what I saw, | and I don't even know you from Adam. | wyldfire wrote: | For sure the vendors are garbage. But maybe the COTR | should've rejected the work if it was unacceptable. | pdonis wrote: | _> maybe the COTR should 've rejected the work if it was | unacceptable._ | | That would require the spec to have been written to allow | that kind of rejection. I strongly suspect the spec was | not written that well. | [deleted] | jwithington wrote: | I do want to build better software for DoD, but I can't | figure out how to sell in. I'd start by tackling VMS! No | clue how I'd go about it though. | captainredbeard wrote: | My understanding is that all government vendors must be | listed on the GSA - getting onto that is a start. Or, buy | a company already listed and then start fighting for | procurement contracts. | foxyv wrote: | This difficulty is part of why their software is so bad. | zentiggr wrote: | Without having a foot in the vendor / contracting | process, it's going to be near impossible. | | Other responses have mentioned some routes inside... but | beware... make the incumbents look bad too much and | you'll be bought out and shut down. | | Pride takes a seriously distant back seat to maintaining | the current procurement monopolies and relationships, and | maximizing contract payments for the least effort. | | I'll stop there before I start to incriminate myself or | get on watch lists if I mention possible solutions. | tedmiston wrote: | Defense contracts are awarded extremely subjectively: | there is very much an old boy network in play here. There | are only a few primes. If you dig deeper into the "small | businesses" that are awarded contracts, many / most are | started by people already deeply involved in the defense | space. | | The Air Force has an initiative called Kessel Run [1] to | embrace agile software development -- that might be your | best route to building better software for the DoD. I'm | not sure if other branches have similar programs. | | https://breakingdefense.com/2021/10/not-going-solo-air- | force... | alwayshumans wrote: | The vast majority of navigational incidents are caused by human | error, but better systems would give the crew a chance to | realise their mistakes | | At the moment lots of maritime crew have alarm fatigue, the | system constantly warns them of danger so they learn to ignore | alarms and when something super serious does happen, they can | ignore it | [deleted] | jwithington wrote: | Sure, the officers and crew are ultimately responsible. But how | are "we" enabling the officers and crew to do their jobs? | Manually verifying minimum soundings is a terrible use of one's | time AND something that a computer will beat a human at every | time. | [deleted] | jvanderbot wrote: | A colleague visited a multi-billion-dollar, safety-critical | facility that had adopted automated alarms based on safety | rules. | | He was there because they were asking for software to help | them sift through the cacophony of constantly-firing alarms | which were distracting all their staff playing whack-a-mole | "disable" and ruining situational awareness. | | I imagine it's similar here. Do you want the sub to move up | automatically? To fire an alarm? To dissalow a maneuver? | Absolutely not. Imagine a crew knowingly pushing their | vehicle into potentially dangerous maneuvers and spending | those critical moments fighting the vehicle or disabling | alarms. | | This is how the "stick pusher" causes crashes on airplanes. | | The fault lies with whomever commanded the maneuver, not with | the ship for doing a minor mutiny to prevent it. | | Now, as a counterpoint, see the f-16 auto-maneuver (I think | this is a representative link): | https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA583778.pdf | Jtsummers wrote: | > I imagine it's similar here. Do you want the sub to move | up automatically? To fire an alarm? To dissalow a maneuver? | Absolutely not. Imagine a crew knowingly pushing their | vehicle into potentially dangerous maneuvers and spending | those critical moments fighting the vehicle or disabling | alarms. | | These kind of systems typically have manual overrides. If | the operator truly believes they know best (or are in an | exceptional situation that the automated system cannot | account for), they can override the automated system | (including many, if not most, safeguards). That's design | 101 when you're building critical systems. | jvanderbot wrote: | I imagine there are systems which are much more mature | and un-intrusive, but my limited experience with the | space has been quite negative. | Jtsummers wrote: | > The real problem is training, and much like any other human | problem, this one cannot be solved through technology; it has | to be solved by culture changes. | | What this makes me think of: | | > Why test software? It's a culture problem, not a technical | problem. Just write correct software. | | As long as no one ever makes a mistake it's a totally valid | approach... | tra3 wrote: | Remind me when USS McCain collided with another ship in a busy | channel [0]. Because of a UI issue, they couldn't figure out | where throttle control was and ran into someone. Which is crazy | to me. | | I was going to say, that there probably a few dozen people that | use submarine nav software, so it's hard to get a representative | sample of usability...but then it occurred to me that airplane | software has a fairly limited audience too. | | What's the process for test for developing aircraft software? How | is nav done in aircraft? Theoretically they have the same issues | (like hitting the ground). | | [0]: https://arstechnica.com/information- | technology/2017/11/uss-m... | kayodelycaon wrote: | I think there are several orders of magnitude more planes than | submarines. | | From Wikipedia: | | Los Angeles class submarines built: 62, entering service 1976. | | Abus A350s built: 443, entering service 2015. | tra3 wrote: | Fair enough, I suppose. The article author was comparing | submarine nav software to phone nav software though and | google says there are 5+ billion mobile users. That's another | couple of order of magnitude more. That'd explain why mobile | software is more polished. I guess any kind of mass market | product would be higher quality. The same argument ("number | of eyeballs") has been used with open source software vs | closed source. | Animats wrote: | _" Because of a UI issue, they couldn't figure out where | throttle control was and ran into someone."_ | | That's happened more than once. NYC ferryboat allision.[1] It's | another case of touchscreen mania. With ship controls, it's | common to have more than one control station for basic helm and | throttle. When docking, it's common to drive from a control | station where you can see the dock. So which station has | control is an issue. Some systems have physical feedback, so | that the wheel and throttles at all stations move together. | That avoids mode confusion. | | Aircraft people get this, but few others seem to. | | [1] https://www.workboat.com/passenger-vessels/seastreak- | ferry-a... | jwithington wrote: | There are probably a few thousand users of submarine navigation | software. But the willingness to pay *should* be quite high, | which in most other markets would translate to a quality | product. The tool should help submarines: | | * Prevent groundings (loss of a $3B platform, 120+ lives in | worst case) * Do their missions better (increase the value of | the platform) | tra3 wrote: | They probably have a laundry list of requirements (like | nuclear containment?) before they even get to software. | | I've been in many a design meeting where a "must have" was | pushed out to the next version because "the user can just do | this manually for now". | hguant wrote: | The UI issue is real, and is a problem, but the root cause of | the 7th Fleet's crashes during that time period is lack of | training and inadequate leadership, due to an operational tempo | that's Thenot sustainable given current funding and ships. | Instead of building new cruisers, or taking the time to dry | dock and repair these ships, the admiralty has been ok'ing "at | sea" repairs, leading to situations like this where primary | systems aren't functional and back up systems are run for far | longer than intended. The admiralty has been looking for | technical solutions to a human problem for about a decade now, | becaise they'd rather buy a new set of carriers and the F-35 | than build the ships they need to support the mission given to | them by Congress. The result is burnout, and incidents like | this. | | The Navy as a whole has a severe manpower shortage, and in the | incident report for the McCain collision I believe it came out | that the officer on duty was 17 hours into their watch, and | didn't have a full compliment in the watch house because one of | the crew who was supposed to be there was off in the lower | decks for an unstated purpose (anecdotal evidence from my Navy | friends, probably catching up on sleep, or seconded to repair | something while they had "non-critical" time). | | The collision only happened because instead of being trained on | seamanship as a whole, incoming officers are trained how to | work the computer systems they're interfacing with. The Navy | cut down the training periods as well - instead of training | under a senior officer for a few months, to offset manpower | shortages, incoming officers are put in charge immediately, and | given a stack of CDs (wish I was kidding) to complete their | training. | | The surface Navy is in an incredibly dysfunctional place right | now, and Congress/the admiralty have been paperig over | leadership failures by spending more money, and blaming | technology | gattr wrote: | A bit off-topic, but maybe some experts could answer a question? | | I've recently re-read Clancy's "Red Storm Rising", the sections | on submarine (and anti-) warfare are really interesting (I | understand some of it may be simplified/fictional). E.g., how the | Mark 48 torpedo can be set to and launched in "hunting mode", | where it circles at a slow, undetectable speed, and only after | acquiring a target it suddenly accelerates for a kill. | | Let's consider this excerpt from [1]: | | _Terminal Homing is the final stage of the torpedo attack. (...) | Terminal homing is an active sonar ping that retransmits on | reception becoming more rapid as the range to target closes at | maximum speed. (...) The target is alerted to the attack, but | there is nothing it can do to defeat the weapon at this point. | The weapon is too close and moving too fast to allow time for a | countermeasure to be effective._ | | Now, I might have read too much David Weber ([2]), but wouldn't a | small, cheap-ish counter-torpedo suffice? Put 10-20 of them in | small automated launchers all around the hull, and let them crash | head-on with the (now perfectly detectable) approaching boat- | killer, still at a safe distance (which is.. I don't know, | 100-200 m?) | | [1] https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33018/modern- | submarine... | | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorverse | tra3 wrote: | Like chaff [0] or flares? | | I wonder if you could triangulate the launch point though. | | [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure) | virtue3 wrote: | From what I've seen on naval ships you'd launch it to the | side that is incoming so you'd be behind the wall of Chaff. I | think that would be significantly harder to triangulate | because you'd mostly just see the noisy stuff up front and | your original target would be behind the wall of chaff. | | Chaff is also designed to reflect signals all over the place | so that it's difficult to get accurate results back. This | would make triangulating near impossible (if it's working as | intended) | greedo wrote: | The problem is difficult due to the inability to use radar as a | guidance mechanism for the "anti-torpedo torpedo." | virtue3 wrote: | Kind of a sword vs shield thing as most things in the military. | | There are sonar decoys. They aren't easy. | | You also have to have it rigged ready to go with very little | notice. | | The other aspect is that these torpedoes can still be wired to | the ship so you can continue to use the host sub's arguably | better passive sonar systems and let the attacking torpedo get | VERY close. | | As with all things in submersible conflict the first person to | be heard is dead. | | The other aspect of your decoy system that you might not be | thinking about is that you've a) compromised the hull with | holes b) you are going to make a LOT of noise firing those off | c) your sonar signature might go up dramatically when the doors | are opened etc. | | The hull actually has something similar to stealth coating (but | for sonar, so easier to develop cuz it's against sound waves) | on the hull. You really don't want to mess with it too much. | | Sub warfare is insane. There isn't really a strong counter to | them in the open ocean. USN Carrier groups are especially | vulnerable (at least from exercises I've read about). | | Your idea isn't bad. Just make it a towed array that pops off a | bunch of really loud shit 1000m behind you or something. | | This would eventually turn into a cat/mouse game of who can | make a better system for detecting decoys vs fooling torpedoes. | | If you read up on china's new hypersonic missile system you can | get a feeling for why this shit is terrifying sometimes. | Fractional Orbital Bombardment System is new and very scary for | the USA missile defense systems. They effectively shrink the | "we can see it range" down to a very small amount of time to | respond. Combine that with MIRV warheads and decoys and it's a | nightmare. | nradov wrote: | Yes several navies are working on torpedo interceptors. | | https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/04/16/navies-... | whatrocks wrote: | I'm working on some cool submarine software here: | https://adventofcode.com/ | qwertyuiop_ wrote: | "CRUD boys" at it again. I am glad this hasn't crept into | avionics. | northisup wrote: | advent of code is actively working on this... | jwithington wrote: | is it really?? you're the second one to post this | Jtsummers wrote: | The story this year has you descending into the ocean in a | submarine. | zppln wrote: | Although it does sound like this piece of software could use | improvement, I would never expect a mission support system to be | the only thing safeguarding me from going aground. I don't know | anything about submarines, but I would expect some kind of real- | time navigation system to alert me before hand. | jwithington wrote: | To clarify: this is the real-time navigation system lol | zppln wrote: | Oh, I was under the impression it was just a planning system. | Mea culpa! | jwithington wrote: | I think I should make this more clear! It serves both | functions. | thuccess129 wrote: | > I don't know anything about submarines, but I would expect | some kind of real-time navigation system to alert me before | hand. | | For docking simulation to the space station, SpaceX has a | website for controlling the Dragon capsule's UI. That could be | the UI ergonomy baseline for measuring the current submarine's | software against. The Orion and Starliner capsules have their | own different more hardware oriented UI. I would expect nextgen | submariners to be digital first native fast twitch glass screen | navigators, but a submarine taking damage will be a splashy | environment as seen in the movies and touch screens won't be as | reliable as physical toggles with redundant bypasses etc. | | Maybe "Fat Leonard" contributed to the contracting process that | put this software on the suboptimal submarine without proper | human factors consideration. | alwayshumans wrote: | So one of the fundamental design elements of a electronic chart | display information system(Ecdis) or warfare Ecdis is the use of | the safety depth contour. | | Anything inside the blue area would cause alarming on a | traditional Ecdis. | | The bigger issue is the data that is used to navigate on, I could | write a very boring blog detailing why th systems work so | badly... | jwithington wrote: | you should! let's geek out on it | GartzenDeHaes wrote: | In the mid-2000's, I hired a recent college grad who was in the | US Navy. Her job in the Navy was to administrate a MS Exchange | server on a ship. It was kind of mind blowing to learn that each | ship had a full MS back-end stack. | trcarney wrote: | Yup, and backed up with magnetic tape every night. | tablespoon wrote: | > The Connecticut alone carries enough torpedoes to destroy any | other nation's entire nuclear submarine force. | | Nitpick, but isn't that a lot like saying "this magazine carries | enough bullets to kill a whole platoon of soldiers"? I mean, it | technically does, but only if they're all lined up in front of | you and you never miss, which is almost certainly not true in | real-world conditions. | | > This failure to intervene is probably the most egregious | shortcoming of VMS. But it's notoriously awful along other | dimensions. Here's some of what I remember, mixed in with | conversations with folks more recently onboard: | | It seems like the military really ought to give the users of | systems like this the ability to say "fuck no" and send it back | after doing some user testing. Some of the issue identified are | egregious and maybe the kind of thing that could get a submarine | that's actually fighting sunk. I mean, it sounds like it's so bad | it nearly got a submarine that was just cruising around sunk. | jwithington wrote: | I do think that's a fair critique of my analogy on the | firepower of a Seawolf class submarine. | | I'm trying to relay that it's exceedingly deadly submarine. The | best in the world. The envy of all other submarine classes. | | I don't think there are fighter aircraft that carry enough | missiles to down an entire country's bomber force. | | The Seawolf was made to destroy other ships. It has all the | stats and capabilities to do it. But the kicker is it has | incredibly bad navigation software. | quesera wrote: | I read it with the opposite meaning: | | > The Connecticut alone carries enough torpedoes to destroy | any other nation's entire nuclear submarine force. | | The Connecticut _uniquely_ carries enough torpedoes to | destroy... | | vs. | | The Connecticut carries enough torpedoes to _single-handedly_ | destroy... | mLuby wrote: | That's reasonable. | | Sloppier would've been: "The Connecticut alone _could_ | destroy any other nation 's entire nuclear submarine force." | jwithington wrote: | Well, the design requirements for the Seawolf class were | actually probably something like this! | | Basically the Navy wanted a monster that go deep behind | Soviet lines and tear things up before they made it out of | the backyard. | | "[Seawolf's] emphasis on fast tactical search speeds and a | massive torpedo magazine were reflections of its design | mission, which was to independently search for and kill | Soviet submarines in the relatively confined and target | rich northern waters of the Soviet Arctic littoral." [1] | | [1] https://digital- | commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl... | scottLobster wrote: | Yeah, it sounds impressive until you realize that only 8 | nations have more than a dozen submarines, and most nations | have zero. | zauguin wrote: | It's even more restrictive since the statement is only about | nuclear subs. I don't think that there are 8 nations with | nuclear subs at all, let alone a dozen of them. | handrous wrote: | Hell, if we assume one-hit-kills and no duds/misses, a mid- | war German U-Boat probably qualifies for the same | achievement, as far as sheer amount of ordnance carried. Not | that WWII subs were any good at hunting other subs, but | still. It's not really impressive or surprising that a sub | would carry enough torpedoes to _technically_ be able to sink | all the nuclear subs of any non-US country. | throwmamatrain wrote: | Torpedos are not bullets, I don't think this is a good analogy. | KineticLensman wrote: | > Torpedos are not bullets, I don't think this is a good | analogy. | | The point of the analogy is that the enemy platoon / nuclear | submarine force would need be to be located and behave in a | way that allowed a single shooter to wipe them all out almost | simultaneously. This is particularly unlikely for submarines, | especially nuclear-armed ones. | handrous wrote: | > especially nuclear-armed ones. | | I took "nuclear sub" to mean "nuclear powered" (as opposed | to e.g. diesel-electric, which are still fairly common), | which _I think_ represents a somewhat larger set of | submarines, outside the US, than just the set of all non-US | "boomer" (nuclear-armed) subs. That is, attack subs without | nuke-tipped missiles can still be _nuclear subs_ because | they have a nuke plant onboard for power. | KineticLensman wrote: | Agree - it's not actually clear which type is meant. If | boomers then this is a indeed very small number (e.g. | only four for the UK, which is one of the few non-US | countries (four?) to operate boomers). | tablespoon wrote: | > Torpedos are not bullets, I don't think this is a good | analogy. | | They aren't, but I'm sure there are operational complications | to using them that make the analogy work (e.g. | countermeasures). | FridayoLeary wrote: | i think the author is trying more to highlight the importance | of the submarine by mentioning it's singular capabilities. | octorian wrote: | I would argue that software written under government contract is | inherently awful and unusable, because... | | - It is driven entirely by formal requirements and specifications | | - These requirements are approved by "the customer," which is a | set of people completely independent from "the actual users." | | - A requirements document cannot easily capture "the UI/UX | doesn't suck," because that sort of thing often tends to be more | subjective or not well thought out in advance. | | - The developers often pat themselves on the back for meeting the | requirements. | | - The customer has to accept the software and foist it on the | users, because it meets the requirements. | | ...and... | | - The competition is entirely about who gets the contract to | build the software, and not for which software is actually the | best. | nonameiguess wrote: | The thing about this is the best software stack I've ever | worked on was for a government system, driving geointelligence | ground processing for the NRO. It is still light years ahead of | anything I've ever seen in the commercial world, but it's | driving automated systems, so there is no UI. Anything I've | ever worked on in the IC or DoD that had a UI pretty much | universally had a terrible UI, and I agree the root of the | problem is the absolute firewall between development teams and | end users. Beyond that, though, individual acquisition offices | often seem quite hostile to their own users and don't make any | attempt to acquire software they'll actually like using. | lifeisstillgood wrote: | That last part is key. | | I suspect some form of X-prize approach would be worth trying - | seed out a large number of small ISVs for government software | (from license management to submarine firing systems). | | Spend the money not in the requirements (which as you say are | usually written by a non developer with minimal experience of | the problem - after all if they were an expert they would have | other more useful things to do) and spend the money on building | automated test rigs. | | I know I sound trite, and this is not even the best way (which | is to organically grow solutions to problems), but we have a | small window - software is eating everything and we will need | to write the first generation of software that covers all | politics and I damn well want that to be open to everyone to | read. The software that runs governments will essentially be | law. We should be free to read our laws | inetknght wrote: | > _- It is driven entirely by formal requirements and | specifications_ | | Can you explain why this is a bad thing? I've found that formal | requirements and specifications are almost always good unless | they're just vague (in which case: they're not really _formal_ | ) | | > _- These requirements are approved by "the customer," which | is a set of people completely independent from "the actual | users."_ | | Well, yes. That is indeed a problem. | | > _- A requirements document cannot easily capture "the UI/UX | doesn't suck," because that sort of thing often tends to be | more subjective or not well thought out in advance._ | | I've found that very _very_ few people actively request people | to say "your UI sucks". Instead, they want "constructive | criticism" and/or "describe _why_ it sucks! ". Which, is | sort've fair. But it gets to be extremely tiring to explain why | the UX doesn't "just suck" but is fundamentally flawed. | | > _- The developers often pat themselves on the back for | meeting the requirements._ | | Nothing wrong with that either. | | > _- The customer has to accept the software and foist it on | the users, because it meets the requirements._ | | The customer has to accept the software because that's how | contracts are done. But they don't have to foist it on the | users. They just want to show that they've been able to deliver | on their promise of a software solution. | | > _- The competition is entirely about who gets the contract to | build the software, and not for which software is actually the | best._ | | Well that's quite a problem. | unionpivo wrote: | > - It is driven entirely by formal requirements and | specifications Can you explain why this is a bad thing? I've | found that formal requirements and specifications are almost | always good unless they're just vague (in which case: they're | not really formal) | | I have been in various projects for government and | enterprises (non military, mostly medical and banking fields) | with formal requirements and some without. I can say that | those without always had better GUI and people using them | liked it better. I think that one major reason is that most | people can't really imagine application without actually | using it. Only once they are using it they can give you | useful feedback (as in this is important, this isn't, make | that action default etc.) | | Another reason is that people that are not using it are | writing requirements. For instance in a lot of medical | applications, people who will write specs and requirements | are Business managers or doctors (or both), but not radiology | technicians and nurses that will actually use the software. | So they have no idea of day to day workflow - just desired | outcome. So software will suck 100% if based only on their | requirements (in my personal experience). | atribecalledqst wrote: | I definitely agree that not being able to capture "UI/UX | shouldn't suck" in a formal requirement is a problem. | Developers have to be vigilant, or get a lot of help from QA | (typically the latter). | | In my experience, though, there is a bit of a feedback loop | during government test events since those are often staffed by | real end users. If the end user doesn't like the software they | can just say it failed the test, even if it did meet the | requirements as written. So at least there's a bit of an upside | there. | | It would be nice if that feedback with the end user could occur | earlier in the process though. | trcarney wrote: | The biggest issue with software written under government | contract, firm fixed price contracts. The way these are handled | is not a good way to handle software. The winning contractor | has a set of requirements for the software they have to | deliver. If the customer wants to change anything, there has to | be a bidding process and either a new contract or an add-on | contract is awarded. This makes the customer very hesitant the | make changes to the requirements even in the face of user | feedback. | | There is also no way to get user feedback until after the final | software is delivered. It would have made life so much easier | when I was a contractor if we could have had a group of users | come in and see the software and make recommendations for the | UI. | londons_explore wrote: | Special purpose software built for use by just a few people tends | to be the worst software. | | Many people have tried to fix that problem, few succeed. | jopsen wrote: | Yeah, this goes pretty much everywhere. | | I guess our industry is still ripe for disruption. Should | someone figure out how make quality software cheap :) | mLuby wrote: | > It's unacceptable work from our vendors and procurement | processes... It's as if our procurement process and the vendor | collaborated to absolve themselves from any responsibility by | serving us such an aggressively unhelpul[sic] tool. | | If subs were companies, competition would solve this problem. | Some enterprising engineer says to herself "I can build a better | VMS" and does. Since it's 10x better than the existing VMS, some | submarine crews adopt it, and pretty soon it's in widespread use | across the fleet. Engineer profits, sub crews are more effective | and probably it's cheaper too. | | But it's the government, even worse it's defense. So regulations | and secrecy (some reasonable, some not) muddy the waters until | everyone's blind, including apparently the VMS. | trasz wrote: | If subs were companies, they would all be sold long ago to | China and India. | mLuby wrote: | That does happen. :) | willis936 wrote: | It is surprising that there isn't constant passive bathymetrics. | The models exist, the hydrophones are already there, and the | entire hardware/software stack needed to implement it is there. | What's the hold up? | intpx wrote: | Just a guess, but stealth is one of the primary design | requirements even passive coils are RF devices. | willis936 wrote: | No way. RF doesn't go anywhere in water. Besides, an entire | hydrophone array is at least 60 dB quieter than propulsion | systems in terms of EM emissions and will be on par with life | support systems, which I assume do not ever get voluntarily | shut down underwater. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | > the navigational software on the $3B warship is far less | capable any maps app on your phone. The software, called "Voyage | Management System" (VMS), is the hub of all the ship's planning. | But it can't even do basic safety-of-ship alerting. | | My phone can do "safety-of-ship" alerting? I'm the first to shit | on defense software, it's my background, but map software for a | submarine is safety-critical. While submerged it's basically | their eyes. It has to be more reliable and trustworthy than | possibly any other map software. Not only this but navigation | information would have to be fused together from GPS as well as | INS (inertial nav). | | My 2 cents. Background in defense but not submarines. | aaron695 wrote: | > My phone can do "safety-of-ship" alerting? | | Yes. Never controlled a drone from your phone? | | The fact you've worked defence and can't see how consumer | devices do things submarines can't is the issue. | | We all know a submarine is worth x billion, a drone much less. | We understand about critical failure on each. | | You job is to work out how to merge the two, but instead | defence hides behind ideas like verifying software. Software | verification should be a tool, not a wall for bureaucrats to | hide behind. | roywiggins wrote: | Navy software (among, to be fair, other things) killed 10 | sailors in a preventable collision: | | https://features.propublica.org/navy-uss-mccain-crash/navy-i... | 0xfeba wrote: | I've worked in defense as well. Older software seemed to be | tested more, or otherwise more reliable. Sure, it could be | outdated, but generally it was usable. | | As they moved away from embedded to more networked and newer | tech stacks things got terrible. The software world of today is | not compatible with the needs of the defense industry. | | Plus all the red tape and misdirection. The software need comes | from an organizational budget that has to use money to justify | receiving money. Then it funnels down into political buckets, | who use the dollar amount given to determine needs/wants. Then | it goes back up the chain to the government. Then to a | contractor, then a flurry of subcontractors. Then finally a | developer. Rarely is the warfighter who will actually use the | system consulted. Even then, rarely will the programmer meet | that person using the software. | | Yet they all call themselves "agile" now. | dn3500 wrote: | I was a developer at a large contracter doing work for the | Navy in the 1970s. Compared to today, there was almost zero | code review, but an insane amount of testing, from the lowest | module level to the highest integration level, both against | the requirements and in simulation. We did not subcontract | software. I often wished I could talk to the warfighter who | was going to use my stuff but it never happened. Worse I | never got any feedback on whether my stuff was even used. We | did have quite a few ex-Navy people in our dev group and that | did help. | wolverine876 wrote: | How efficient was that? How fast could you develop | solutions? | virtue3 wrote: | https://news.usni.org/2019/08/09/navy-reverting-ddgs- | back-to... | | Fucking bad from what I've read. It's a really bad | problem still and the USN needs to correct it by having a | tighter integration with the HW/SW people and the actual | soldiers/sailors. | zentiggr wrote: | Twenty years ago, when VMS just got introduced, it behaved | like this... | | I can't believe that after all this time, it's still | completely borked, in all the same ways. | | Somebody at NAVSEA needs to be dragged by their nostrils out | on a deployment, take notes, and go back to their office with | their pride in a garbage bag. | | Proud as hell to have served, and angry as hell that our | current crews are still dealing with the same | ---procurement--- failures. | Jtsummers wrote: | That's from the time when everything was still (and | everything still being planned for the replacements were | also) big-bang releases. 5-10 year projects to replace the | broken system that still lack the necessary capabilities. | I've never worked on a Navy project, but I've seen several | spectacular USAF failures of similar magnitude. The most | hilarious (in an absurdist sense) was having 3 generations | of a system running concurrently because none of them had | all the necessary features, when I left they were working | on number 4. | jcadam wrote: | The only time I had contact with the end user as a defense | contractor was when I was working on-site in an R&D shop, | where we were creating software for users that were all in | the same "integrated" team with us. That was the only job | I've had in the industry I could describe as "fast-paced." | jwithington wrote: | I don't think all of those problems are unique to government | software. Some (a lot?) enterprise software is atrocious and | disliked by end users. That's because the people making the | purchasing decisions != end users. | | But it's flabbergasting just how bad VMS is considering it's | the navigation system for these national assets. It's not | like an HR system with poor UX--navigation is essential to | the safety and effectiveness of the whole platform! | wolverine876 wrote: | > Some (a lot?) enterprise software is atrocious and | disliked by end users. That's because the people making the | purchasing decisions != end users. | | It's because the people making decisions care about putting | money where it earns the most return and have more on their | plate than they can address. Making software more pleasant | for internal users rarely makes it to the top of the list. | | > navigation is essential to the safety and effectiveness | of the whole platform! | | Subs crash very rarely, so the software seems to be | sufficient. | VBprogrammer wrote: | I suspect any kind of sustained warfare in the modern era | would result in the immediate obsolescence of much of the | equipment designed in peacetime. | noja wrote: | Warfare would not even be required | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event | LeifCarrotson wrote: | Your phone has Google Maps or Apple Maps, which will alert you | when there are road closures or hazards ahead, yes. It even has | a list of places where there are roads, and places where there | are not roads, and will not (typically) direct you to go off- | roading. The behavior of VMS is like punching in a street | address and having Maps tell you to go straight there as the | crow flies. | | It's hard to redundantly guarantee correctness, if you wanted | to rely on VMS to avoid hitting the seafloor that would indeed | be difficult. But come on, how hard is it to offer a highlight | for the shallowest points near your course, or a warning that | says "you added an extra zero here"? | jjk166 wrote: | > Your phone has Google Maps or Apple Maps, which will alert | you when there are road closures or hazards ahead, yes. It | even has a list of places where there are roads, and places | where there are not roads, and will not (typically) direct | you to go off-roading. | | Google's servers have this information, compiled in real time | from countless sources including direct satellite cartography | and all beamed to a phone acting as little more than a user | interface. Take your phone a few hundred feet below the water | where it is cut off from the outside world and even the best | maps in the world aren't accurate and you're going to run | into a lot of things. | gravypod wrote: | (Opinions are my own) | | You can actually operate Google maps with no internet | connection: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838? | hl=en&co=GENI... | | This will not have the same feature set but the UI will let | you know that this is operating with reduced data. Route | planning is still very good offline. I had to use this | feature because for some time part of my route home had no | cell signal. | rch wrote: | I use this hiking sometimes. Not as good as GPS | obviously, but better than AllTrails. | tekno45 wrote: | doesn't that still allow GPS communication? | Eelongate wrote: | It certainly does. Pure inertial guidance with smartphone | sensors is garbage. I must say I'm a bit startled by how | many people evidently think that GPS is an internet | service... | trcarney wrote: | You could have a local copy onboard. There should be enough | rack space on the boat to keep a copy that gets updated | when the boat gets connected to shore data. Also for sea | data, the data set would be much smaller because it hardly | changes, and you don't have as many variables(i.e. live | traffic, construction, etc), especially under the sea. | semireg wrote: | Early in the Apple Maps days I took a road trip from | Minneapolis to the west coast and back. Somewhere in southern | Wyoming we were headed to the front range in Summit County | (west of Denver) and maps took us on what I can only describe | as a dirt road up a mountain complete with wildlife of goats | or whatever terrestrial creatures stirred. | | But the best part? Seeing all the other users of maps along | the route! Barely enough room for two cars to pass. But we | had each other. Everyone would hold up their iPhone and mouth | "WTF?" with wide eyes. | lostlogin wrote: | It would be fascinating to see what it took for people to | stop and turn back. | nradov wrote: | Some of those roads are too narrow to turn around. | Waterluvian wrote: | Exactly how I feel when someone shows up to the GIS domain with | Google Maps and is like "why can't you old timers be more like | this?!" | GekkePrutser wrote: | Whoa... I had no idea that submarine software was this bad. Not | just the lack of warnings but also "Waits for VMS to load the | next screen, which can take minutes.". Why do you have to wait | minutes to load a map?? And why is this running Windows XP? | | I'm also surprised there's no contour lines between the depths | (although perhaps this is done to not infer a knowledge of depths | in the intermediate points where perhaps there is no such | knowledge). | gaetgu wrote: | IIRC the military actually got a private extension to XP's EOL | from Microsoft just so that they don't have to change all that | tech. | GekkePrutser wrote: | Oh really but even still up to now?? I mean the EOL was in | 2014. How long do they keep that up? :) | | I suppose they do what we do in our factories at work. | Airgapping and extremely strict firewalling where any access | is needed. | chiph wrote: | > I'm also surprised there's no contour lines between the | depths (although perhaps this is done to not infer a knowledge | of depths in the intermediate points where perhaps there is no | such knowledge). | | Yes, contour lines would imply accuracy that isn't there. The | depth numbers indicate positions where the depth was actually | measured. Any other location that doesn't have a number was not | measured. Bear in mind that even if you have a depth number on | your chart, it might be old and out of date. Safe navigation is | never guaranteed. And subs never run depth-finder sonar when on | patrol. | AnimalMuppet wrote: | How do depth numbers get out of date? | | Sedimentation? | | Underwater volcano eruption? | | Continental drift? | zentiggr wrote: | The broken assumption thee is that the ocean floor doesn't | change. Things are changing all the time. Faster and faster | as you get shallower and shallower. | | Shipping channels and shallows need to be resurveyed | constantly or you have no idea what you might encounter. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-12-07 23:01 UTC)