[HN Gopher] Kinesis Advantage 360
___________________________________________________________________
Kinesis Advantage 360
Author : ndrake
Score : 224 points
Date : 2021-12-17 17:07 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (kinesis-ergo.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (kinesis-ergo.com)
| oftenwrong wrote:
| I've felt for a long time that this would be an obvious move. I
| know that many people, myself included, like the Kinesis
| Advantage design, but wanted a split design like the Freestyle.
| I've even seen DIY versions.
| frou_dh wrote:
| Split with major tenting is cool:
|
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Pro-Asymm...
|
| I've already settled on my "endgame" desktop keyboard in the
| Matias Ergo Pro though. Don't like layouts that stray too far
| from ANSI.
| uses wrote:
| What did they end up doing with the escape key?
| ErikCorry wrote:
| I'm guessing it's one of the new ones in the center (between G
| and H).
|
| I only use escape in vim though, and there I mapped the jk key
| combination to escape instead. (:map! jk <esc>) I'm trying to
| stop using the physical escape key completely. If it's not
| where I expect it that will go faster.
|
| The function keys do almost nothing in Linux so I won't miss
| them.
|
| My main regret with my Advantage keyboard is that I should have
| bought it 20 years earlier. So I could totally see myself
| getting this. Even if I think 3.2 pounds is a little on the
| heavy side.
| aredplug wrote:
| To counter the stories of "an ergonomic keyboard" fixed my health
| issue...
|
| I had back pain for a few years. After physio and other
| improvements I tried an Ergodox and that didn't fix it.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| Very cool. If this were out a year ago, I may have gone for it
| instead of my Moonlander. The curved keywells is big
| differentiator. It would have been hard to have committed to a
| switch style, though. It took me some trial and error to settle
| on my Zilents.
| dsr_ wrote:
| I don't understand the surrounding decisions.
|
| Differentiating by wired/wireless makes sense.
|
| Using two different programming systems? No.
|
| ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? Why?
|
| RGB underglow but not individually programmable key backlights?
|
| For the money they are charging, all of these things should have
| been extremely easy decisions. Anyone have insight?
| Sholmesy wrote:
| The go to for the ErgoMechKeyboards realm seems to be to use
| ZMK for these sorts of things. Power consumption and
| customization of certain things is better supported.
|
| Individually programmable key backlights is nice, but imo a
| gimmick. That being said I never use backlights on a laptop
| keyboard, or mech keyboard, so I don't know what the use case
| for wanting ur Q to light up in a colour different to your W
| key would be.
|
| Also this board is not _that_ expensive.
| dsr_ wrote:
| Underglow of any kind is a gimmick, but backlights,
| programmable or not, are useful in low-light situations, to
| let you see where that key that you rarely use actually is.
|
| You generally don't want Q to light up different from W, but
| you might want to have a low-level green glow by default and
| slightly brighter colors to distinguish keys around the
| periphery.
| Palomides wrote:
| > ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK?
|
| speculation, but I'm pretty confident: ZMK is MIT licensed and
| QMK is GPL
| twalla wrote:
| ZMK is built on top of Zephyr while QMK is built on top of
| ChibiOS - I'm not super familiar with the specifics but it's
| my understanding that the way ZMK/Zephyr handles bluetooth
| and matrix scanning is like an order of magnitude more energy
| efficient.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| I don't plan on the keyboard but I'll chime in that per key
| LEDs are a lifesaver when it comes to learning custom layers.
|
| My workmates gaming keyboard led patterns That change with
| every key press drive me nuts, though.
| chrsig wrote:
| My best guess is that they're not important decisions to their
| target audience.
|
| I've been using a kinesis advantage for years, and I'm
| seriously considering getting one of these.
|
| I do not at all care about ZMK vs QMK -- I don't even know why
| I should care.
|
| RGB underglow? I don't even care that it's there, let alone
| programmable key backlights.
|
| I care about ergonomics. The selling point is the split, and
| bluetooth/wireless capability, on top of all the existing
| ergonomic benefits.
| tbenst wrote:
| I had to look it up too, but big drawback is ZMK does not yet
| support macros. So only the Advantage360 supports macros for
| now, the Advantage360 Professional does not
| (https://zmk.dev/docs)
| ebruchez wrote:
| > ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? Why?
|
| QMK is licensed under the GPL, which disallows linking with
| proprietary Bluetooth stacks. That might be one reason.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Semi-related:
|
| I've had a basic ergo keyboard (MS sculpt ergonomic) for a while
| and it's much much better than regular keyboards;
|
| However I think all ergo keyboard companies are missing the point
| those days:
|
| "Just-a-keyboard" doesn't cut it anymore in the world of laptops.
| I want an ergonomic keyboard _with a built-in Macbook-class
| touchpad, or ThinkPad-class trackpoint + three buttons_. (I know
| it 's tricky, especially with split keybord; conceptually it
| feels it almost can't be done).
|
| Unfortunately most of software those days has pretty limited
| functionality if you want to use it 100% with a keyboard only.
| And no matter what best keyboard you have, adding a trackpad or
| mouse to it is just clunky and slows you down due to endless
| context-switching.
|
| Are there any examples of ergo keyboard with built-in pointing
| device? I never found any.
| toyg wrote:
| The touchpad is an ergo-killer. It's just bad for your wrists
| to use it for any significant amount of time. It would be silly
| to include it in an ergo keyboard. The trackpoint is likely to
| be still covered by some IBM patents, and nobody uses it
| anyway.
|
| If you really want a trackpad, get an Apple one and drop it in
| the middle of your split keyboard. It will still be bad for
| your wrists though.
| foxfluff wrote:
| How about a pointing device with a built-in keyboard? IMO it
| sucks but here you go: https://www.keymouse.com/
|
| I'm adding analog thumbsticks (the style you'd find e.g. on a
| playstation controller) to my split keyboard. I expect them to
| suck too but maybe 0.5% less than the nipple on thinkpad
| keyboards. That one keeps tempting me because it's in a
| convenient positoin but it just drives me mad every time I try
| to get anything done with it.
| brainlessdev wrote:
| I wonder if an ISO version will become available (with a <> key
| next to the left shift key).
|
| It has never been the case for their other models :(
| VectorLock wrote:
| I've been waiting a long time for this and getting hyped at their
| Twitter drip feed but damn preorders open December 20th for
| potential delivery in MAY.
| Smoofer wrote:
| Yeah, I was very close to buying an Advantage 2 in the last
| week. Saw this, got super excited, then realized it wouldn't be
| in my hands for another 5 months
| tcoff91 wrote:
| I own an advantage 2 and I will be smashing that pre-order
| button. I love my advantage2 so much, and this new 360 looks
| even better!
| inquist wrote:
| FWIW I've been quite happy with the ZSA Moonlander
| https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
| linsomniac wrote:
| I was pretty hot on getting the Moonlander when it first came
| out, but I really wanted unlabeled keys. They now offer that,
| but I'm having a hard time committing to spending the money
| when I'm so happy with my ErgoDox Ez.
|
| Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
| warp wrote:
| I have no experience with the ErgoDox, and loved the
| Moonlander when I first received it. Over time I've grown to
| dislike the thumb clusters, they're too far away when tented,
| making only the inner thumb button easily reachable.
|
| (I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try
| something else soon, probably a Kyria).
| tylerscott wrote:
| I also have both and prefer the Moonlander. I like the
| adjustable thumb keys, integrated wrist supports, and smaller
| size compared to the Ez. That said, the Ez is a GREAT
| keyboard.
| nahtnam wrote:
| I've had both. I find that the moonlander is a LOT smaller,
| and feels a bit better because the wrist-rests are integrated
| (that was probably my biggest annoyance with the EZ). I was
| able to sell my EZ for about 250, so the moonlander
| realistically cost me about 150. The moonlander is about 25%
| better than the EZ (note: there are a few keys missing) and
| overall I'm happy with my upgrade
| platz wrote:
| whats the difference between that and an ergodox
| Jenk wrote:
| Biggest difference is the thumbcluster can be tilted.
| Otherise the layout is minimally different.
|
| e: also switches are hotswappable on the Moonlander, they are
| fixed (soldered)on the Ergodox iirc.
|
| e2: They are hotswappable on the EZ :)
| samgranieri wrote:
| Switches are hotswappable on an ergodox ez. I bought one
| last year to get some quiet tactile switches, and it's been
| really good so far. Earlier versions of the ergodox are
| probably what you're thinking of
| astuyvenberg wrote:
| +1 I really do like my new Moonlander, which I purchased in
| November. However, as a former Kinesis Advantage user, I miss
| the contoured shape, I think it helped a lot with carpal pain.
|
| That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
| karmajunkie wrote:
| ok, could you expand on your experiences with both? i'm a
| longtime kinesis user (like, LONG time--i got rid of one with
| an AT connector a few years ago) and i've been really toying
| with the idea of switching. what are the pros and cons you've
| experienced?
| sulam wrote:
| I've used both extensively and fully switched from the
| Kinesis Adv2 to the Moonlander. I believe what gp is
| referring to is the (obvious) structural difference between
| the two. With the Advantage 2, your hands are largely
| resting on the frame of the keyboard. With the Moonlander
| your wrists are either poised above whatever surface you
| have the Moonlander on or resting directly on it. For me,
| and I suspect most people, that's simply my desk. At that
| point the height of your arm with respect to your desk
| becomes very critical to avoid your wrists getting too far
| from a neutral position.
| badlucklottery wrote:
| Not OP but the issue for me moving from a scooped keyboard
| (Kinesis) to a flat one (Ergodox) was reaching the
| top/bottom row comfortably.
|
| On a flat keyboard, hitting that top row (especially edge
| keys like the 5 and 6) required either moving my entire
| hand or doing some weird reaching motion. And I wear a 4XL
| glove so I don't even know how other people deal with the
| top row at all. Being able to not move your hands as much
| doesn't sound like a big thing but it helped a lot with my
| wrist issues because I can find a comfortable position when
| I get started and never leave it until I stand up.
|
| I'm currently on a scooped and fully split KB from
| bastardkb.com which is kind of the best of both worlds
| (scooped for reach, split for my shoulders, and custom
| firmware so I can use less keys overall). But if Kinesis
| offers that out-of-the-box it's a pretty easy choice for my
| next keyboard.
| jcadam wrote:
| Yep, love my Moonlander - it has really helped with my wrist
| issues. The only trouble I have is when I have to switch to a
| standard keyboard (e.g., on a laptop).
| nullwarp wrote:
| Yeah this kills me too, I use layering so much that switching
| to a standard keyboard is borderline crippling.
|
| Still worth it though
| gundmc wrote:
| My only complaint with the moonlander is that you can't use the
| tenting at all if you have the thumb cluster tilted upwards.
| jcadam wrote:
| I didn't know the thumb cluster lifted upwards. Just tried it
| on mine, wow is that uncomfortable.
| sulam wrote:
| It isn't true for me, but what the ZSA folks point out is
| that for small hands you may need it tilted upwards to make
| it natural to reach the thumb cluster.
| ashton314 wrote:
| I have a 3D printed leg to do that. They even showcase it
| here on their website:
| https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/printables/
| wildrhythms wrote:
| Did the Moonlander take some getting used to with the non-
| staggered key layout?
| OmahaBoy69 wrote:
| I have the Ergodox EZ, so similar to the Moonlander. It took
| me about a full workweek to use it without looking at the
| keyboard, and another week to type at a competent speed. That
| said, after three years of ownership, I still can't type as
| fast as I can on my MacBook's keyboard (last I checked: 65wpm
| with the Ergodox, 109wpm with the MacBook).
|
| Still totally worth it.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| Moonlander user here -- sort of, but not really. One of the
| reasons I bought it was the non-staggered keys, and I'd say
| it met my expectations. All the keys off the home row just
| seem a little closer.
| sulam wrote:
| I had been using the Kinesis Advantage 2 and for me there was
| almost no adjustment time. It did take me quite a while (two
| weeks) to get used to the Kinesis.
| samgranieri wrote:
| This keyboard looks like Kinesis's answer to the moonlander
| sudhirj wrote:
| I have one, but it's in a drawer now because I was finding it
| too difficult to switch between it and a normal laptop
| keyboard. I want a split keyboard that has all the keys in the
| same places, so muscle memory doesn't need to adapt. I touch
| type, so the same fingers just need to find the same keys in
| the same relative positions. Mainlander does not do that, and I
| can't find the layout or top view zoomable photos for this one
| :-/
| sudhirj wrote:
| Ooooh. Like this https://kinesis-
| ergo.com/keyboards/freestyle-pro-keyboard/
|
| I want that but curved a bit and tented, _without_ a change
| in layout.
| jamamp wrote:
| There's a ~$30 add-on accessory to add tenting support in
| 5deg, 10deg, and 15deg positions. Same as with the
| Freestyle Edge mentioned in the other comment, for the
| newer, gaming-focused keyboard. I find it to be the best
| part of having a split keyboard.
| toyg wrote:
| That's the old version, you want this:
| https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/
|
| Despite the gaming moniker, it's actually their best
| professional-grade keyboard, with better support for macros
| and backlighting.
| ianai wrote:
| What are the odds the pre-orders will be robbed by bots in a few
| seconds?
| jagger27 wrote:
| That seems unlikely, and it's not really how Drop usually
| works. They collect pre-order payments before manufacturing.
| This is probably an unlimited group buy.
|
| Pre-oders on Drop.com usually stay open for a month or longer.
| gorbachev wrote:
| There are only 360 units on sale, total.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Oh, that's a bummer.
| ianai wrote:
| Oh, awesome, that's a relief! The bluetooth version does seem
| pretty couch surf friendly...maybe I'll get one.
| tbenst wrote:
| Love my Advantage2, and only complaint is the USB cable has
| insufficient strain relief, and I've already replaced two cables,
| almost once a year. So bluetooth is a welcome sight.
|
| Am I the only one that prefers the monolith body? I typically
| rest my keyboard on my knees when typing, which is difficult for
| a split layout
| tinbucket wrote:
| I wonder why they're using Gateron switches rather than Cherry
| ones? Is it just about cutting costs, or is there a solid
| technical reason for using clones rather than the originals?
| nvarsj wrote:
| Demand most likely. Lots of people think the clones like
| gateron are superior to cherries.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| Gateron are in no way inferior to Cherry. They struggle with
| the knock-off branding but have made some pretty popular
| switches in the past 5 years.
| eggy wrote:
| I love Gateron Oranges. I've had both Cherry Browns and the
| Gateron Browns, and I actually prefer the Gaterons. I
| couldn't give you a quantitative answer, but I swapped them
| into the same hot-swappable keyboard and I liked the
| Gaterons. I found the Orange Gaterons, and I am sticking with
| them.
| regus wrote:
| Wow I'm excited to try this! I use a kinesis split keyboard. I
| like it but it is a bit bulky and has a bunch of keys I never
| use. I love that it is split and tented, both of these aspects
| helped with my shoulder and arm pain.
|
| I tried to use the advantage 2 but because it was neither split
| nor tented it hurt my shoulder and arm so much that I couldn't
| use.
|
| This seems like the best of both worlds.
|
| I was considering building a corne keyboard but now I can try
| this instead.
| porker wrote:
| Has anyone seen a printable mockup for this keyboard layout yet?
| I've found (1) invaluable for ruling out which layouts are too
| large for my hands e.g. the Moonlander. This keyboard looks
| excellent - but I want to make sure I won't be overstretching if
| I get it.
|
| 1. https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/
| MrPowers wrote:
| Kinesis Advantage 2 is great, but it's massive and hard to travel
| with. Looks like the 360 might be a bit easier to travel with.
|
| The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in
| the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions
| with you right and left hands.
|
| Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with
| the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard
| and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the
| topic if you're interested in learning more:
| https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
|
| It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only
| takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to
| train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key
| layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if
| you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
| tcoff91 wrote:
| I bet the kinesis foot pedals would take emacs to the next
| level too. I use spacemacs in evil mode so I never bothered
| having to learn all those key chording things for emacs.
| johanvts wrote:
| I got the pedal for my Advantage, but it is too small/light
| to really be useful, I tried mapping it to Ctrl but went back
| almost immediately.
| karmajunkie wrote:
| i have one, but honestly never could make myself get into
| using it. ymmv but i would not make a decision around the
| keyboard based on that
| oofbey wrote:
| I rely heavily on the foot pedal. The single-pedal is too
| light and really wants to be bolted to something heavy so it
| doesn't slide around. The triple-food pedal is much nicer,
| just because it's heavy and stays put. I map all three foot-
| buttons to the same thing.
| foxfluff wrote:
| I have a kinesis advantage pro with foot pedal but the pedal
| just sucks to use. Foot is way too big and clumsy to keep
| pace with fingers, plus it forces you to sit in fixed
| position or fiddle with the pedal all the time to try and
| keep it in a comfortable position (trying to use the pedal
| shows how much I shift around in the chair during the day,
| nevermind when using a balance chair on wheels).
| wildrhythms wrote:
| I have the Kinesis Freestyle 2 and, while the layout is good, I
| really dislike how the keys feel- very mushy, way too much
| travel distance, and many keys require moving my entire hand
| from the home row to properly depress because they're very
| resistant to non-perpendicular force.
|
| What I really want is an ergo keyboard with Macbook/laptop
| style low-travel keys.
| toyg wrote:
| Freestyle Pro and Edge now have mechanical switches, which
| are better than the membrane of the Freestyle and Freestyle
| 2. With the Edge you can even choose the MX Speed Silver, for
| much shorter travel.
| cmauniada wrote:
| I was using the magic trackpad, but due to pain in the back of
| my wrist I had to abandon it entirely and switch over to a
| logitech trackman mouse (same spot, right in the middle of the
| keyboard).
| tylermenezes wrote:
| In addition to all the comments from Advantage fans here, I also
| wanted to add that Kinesis has been an awesome company. I tweeted
| about some mods I made to my Advantage keyboard a long time ago,
| and they invited me to their office and donated a bunch of
| keyboards to the nonprofit I work for, to give as prizes to
| students (even before they launched the gaming-focused brand).
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| Base version gets PBT keycaps (yesss!) and Pro gets ABS (buuuh)
| Sadly not a typo. Hopefully the PBT set is available separately
| or (pretty please) PMK will make a custom run of the Ice-Cap.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| Agreed, should just be an option in the cart. The PBT vs ABS
| conflict is the keyboard equivilant of Vim vs Emacs
| swinglock wrote:
| No one that knows of PBT prefers ABS.
| powerset wrote:
| The FAQ makes it sound like it's an option, at least I hope so.
|
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/#faqs
|
| "Which keycaps should I get? This one is easy...
|
| Dye-Sublimation PBT: These are premium keycaps that are
| resistant to sheen and and fade. If you don't plan to use the
| backlighting then this is the set you want. You have a choice
| of Dvorak or QWERTY legends. Shine-Through ABS: If you want to
| work in a low-light environment you'll need to select these if
| you want to be able to read the key legends. This set is only
| available with QWERTY legends at this time."
| db65edfc7996 wrote:
| Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of
| keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an
| adequate replacement.
|
| Happy to see they are moving away from their own software
| configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the
| Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop
| where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to
| switch back to what I want.
|
| I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the
| "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
| donatj wrote:
| For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my
| Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned
| and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit
| without moving your entire hand.
|
| I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any
| keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
|
| That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty
| used to switching layer for F keys.
| gorbachev wrote:
| I use 65% keyboards almost exclusively these days. No numpad,
| pgdn/up/home/end cluster or function key row.
|
| Function keys are on the number row with a Fn modifier (Fn+1
| for F1).
|
| You get used to it in about half an hour. It becomes second
| nature in less than a week.
|
| It makes the keyboard much more compact, which is definitely a
| plus. Less hand movement, less deskspace consumed, lighter.
| sulam wrote:
| If you haven't, you really should check out the Moonlander
| that's referred to elsewhere in this thread. I switched to it
| from a Kinesis Advantage 2 and couldn't be happier.
| db65edfc7996 wrote:
| The Moonlander is also missing F-keys?
|
| People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers
| are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be
| made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to
| more.
| simonsaysso wrote:
| I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so
| this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-
| type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able
| to move keys closer to your fingers.
|
| That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered
| replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and
| since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about
| portability.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so
| this shouldn't be a big deal
|
| That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that
| I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not
| actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN
| while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press
| multiple keys.
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| They also sell pedals, which, I guess, you could use to
| switch layers. I am thinking about using pedals to switch
| to the arrow keys layer. I wonder what other uses the
| pedals have?
| foxfluff wrote:
| IME the pedal is even more clumsy than pressing two keys
| to switch layers (I've had an advantage pro for ~15 years
| and am now using a planck and also building my own split
| keyboard to replace the planck with something more
| ergonomic).
| jmarcher wrote:
| My concern with this keyboard and others without F keys would
| be how awkward some IntelliJ keyboard shortcuts would be
|
| e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are
| much worse offenders I am sure.
| warp wrote:
| If you're using layers already, it's a small step to just
| add dedicated keys for those things in a layer. So that
| becomes LayerX + 9, or LayerX + R (for rebuild), or
| whatever combination you want.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| >Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of
| keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an
| adequate replacement.
|
| Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of
| small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well
| given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
|
| Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys
| on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H)
| - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys
| would be enough for most use cases.
| ksml wrote:
| Agreed. I think the lack of dedicated F-row is a dealbreaker
| for me, as I use the media control keys pretty often
| thanhhaimai wrote:
| I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (modded QMK) for 6+
| years, and I was so excited to see the headline. Then I
| realized there is no Fn row. :(
|
| It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case
| they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version
| later.
| jerlam wrote:
| I like how they added inboard macro keys. It was odd before how
| the Advantage had all this programming capability but you had to
| come up with some new keystrokes.
|
| Is it me or the price difference between the two makes the Pro
| model a no-brainer? Wireless, backlighting, better keycaps, and
| better programming model for only $40 more?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| ianai wrote:
| Not everybody wants a wireless keyboard. The least desirable
| thing, to me, is probably the backlight. It's clearly toggle-
| able though, so should be fine.
| toyg wrote:
| And if it's like my Freestyle Edge, at some point the
| backlight will just stop working every time you reboot,
| anyway...
|
| (I love my Edge, but this particularly bug annoys me)
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| You find ABS (soft and light plastic that wears down with even
| moderate usage) to be superior to PBT which is heavier and
| _FAR_ more durable?
| jerlam wrote:
| I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about keycaps, it
| always seemed like worrying about the paint on a car and
| ignoring the engine. I'm guessing they had to use the worse
| keycaps on the "Pro" for backlighting?
| [deleted]
| gigatexal wrote:
| Trying to justify the price as I'm very keen to try the contoured
| keys. What's the difference between the two models?
| archarios wrote:
| you could also build your own at much lower cost but much
| higher labor: https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
| https://www.etsy.com/market/dactyl_manuform
| bllguo wrote:
| This looks cool, I'm glad split contoured boards are becoming
| more accessible. Shame about the switch options though.
|
| Also, plug for the yet unreleased Glove80
| https://www.moergo.com/, as someone who prefers low-profile
| switches.
| roldie wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, this looks like it's exactly what I've been
| looking for!
| bllguo wrote:
| absolutely! this is their first product so some caution is
| merited, and the polish most likely won't be on kinesis
| levels, but I really like what they've shown so far
| dmm wrote:
| I recently replaced the controller on my advantage2 to support
| qmk[0]. Using multiple layers lets me avoid the tiny rubber
| f-keys and move the arrow keys to hjkl along with a few other
| tweaks.
|
| I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom
| layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up.
|
| [0] https://github.com/kinx-project/kint
| foxfluff wrote:
| Yea, I have an advantage pro but it's been collecting dust
| since I got a qmk keyboard. I'm not paying for proprietary
| firmware anymore, and since Kinesis' poor handling of their
| sticky modifier key bug (that existed and was well known for
| what, a decade or two?) I'm not keen on paying them anything at
| all anyway.
| Ciantic wrote:
| I have Ergodox Ez, it looks like this one is slightly updated
| version. Pinky row is lowered (which I think is an advantage, I
| have wondered for a long time why the pinky row is too high in
| EZ.). It has Bluetooth which I would prefer.
|
| It has some ZMK firmware which I haven't studied, I have only
| used QMK, otherwise looks good.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| The pinky columns could be lowered a lot more. After a bit of
| testing I moved them a full row height down on my keyboard as
| that seems to be the sweet spot for me. It's weird for a minute
| or two but feels natural quickly.
| Ciantic wrote:
| I tried that too, but couldn't stick to it, I don't remember
| why. Maybe I should try again.
| blt wrote:
| Interested in this. I like my Ergodox EZ but I wish its maximum
| tenting was a little more. I also really want to try the nonflat
| key arrangement.
|
| However, labeled keys and unique key shapes seems like a weird
| combination. Especially with Enter and Space on the same side.
| tomsmeding wrote:
| Question about the EZ: I have one too, but a major problem I
| have with it is that even when not tented, it's a _significant_
| distance above my desk. The EZ wrist rests don't work for me
| (my palms move when typing, and the silicone deters palm
| movement for me), but when the keyboard is tented I have a
| larger problem: where do I rest my arm? Do I just put my elbow
| on the table? That's a very small surface area to rest my full
| arm on.
|
| How do you deal with large amounts of tenting?
|
| EDIT: my current solution is two books, one under either arm...
| donatj wrote:
| I don't mind the lack of function keys, I have a lot of 40-60%
| keyboards that lack function keys - but from the pictures, FN+6
| is F7... Yikes. Off by one.
|
| Why. Every layered keyboard is FN+1-9 = F1-9
|
| I'm sure you can reprogram it to correct this, but this is just
| silly.
| qq4 wrote:
| I was getting hand fatigue from my laptop keyboard and decided to
| look into split keyboards. I tried a variety of Kinesis keyboards
| but I didn't like the build quality or inconsistency in features
| between models. I ended up settling with the Mistel MD770 which
| is a compact split keyboard in a traditional QWERTY layout. I
| found that was all that was really needed. I still use my laptop
| a ton, but I switch it up just enough with the split one to keep
| fatigue at bay. This goes the same for using a trackball with my
| left hand and a mouse with my right.
|
| At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different
| ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to
| adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't
| worth it for me, nor is the cost.
| [deleted]
| h3mb3 wrote:
| I've been quite happy with MD770 as well! I wish a similiar 75%
| split board existed with an ortholinear layout though.
| qq4 wrote:
| I do wish it was a little better in layout, but it's not too
| bad. I have been impressed with it so far for the price. My
| biggest gripe is I wish the effort for flashy RGB lights went
| into key lighting instead. I still hunt and peck sometimes at
| night.
| alostpuppy wrote:
| Does anyone know what the professional edition adds?
| ndrake wrote:
| Bluetooth, wireless linking between both halves, backlighting,
| ZMK firmware
| darzu wrote:
| bluetooth
| [deleted]
| ninkendo wrote:
| What does the keyboard layout look like? Every single picture of
| the keyboard on this site shows either a tiny section of the
| keyboard where you only see like 4 keys, or there's one picture
| that shows the whole thing, but it's super tiny and you can't
| read the keys.
|
| Does it have a decent mac layout? Is cmd+tab easy to type? Is
| copy/paste ergonomic? I have no idea because the pictures don't
| show it, and scrolling around on their site is awful (you can't
| quickly scan around because of the stupid animations taking 2
| seconds for pictures to pop in even if you're quickly scrolling
| past.)
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| I have the non-split Kinesis and while it's good for typing, it
| is unusable for photoshop or illustrator work.
|
| Some shortcuts no longer work for one-handed use.
| CardenB wrote:
| I'm guessing this mimics the kinesis advantage 2, which is an
| already well known keyboard layout from the same company.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| >Does it have a decent mac layout?
|
| So the Advantage comes with extra keycaps for mac that let you
| replace the windows keys with option keys, not sure if the 360
| will have that.
|
| On the regular Advantage, the option keys are controlled by the
| thumb. You can, of course, remap anything you want to remap.
| advrs wrote:
| Second this - it is way too hard for me to see a full FOV and
| high-res look at the actual product!
| lowmagnet wrote:
| I had an Ergo way back, and it was a decent keyboard until
| something failed on the bottom row. I've since moved on to
| building a Ergodox in 2014 that I've been daily using since.
|
| This model looks really slick, and adds a number of nice
| innovations to the form factor. I'd reconsider if my current
| keyboard wasn't so bullet-proof.
| CarVac wrote:
| I cannot fathom why the Kinesis keyboards don't have thumb shift
| by default.
|
| At least it's customizable.
| ErikCorry wrote:
| The most puzzling default is that the 'up' key is on the left
| and 'down' is on the right. This is the opposite of vi and
| ctrl-J ctrl-K for no reason that I can imagine. I always remap
| it.
| archarios wrote:
| I think they want to keep it somewhat approachable..
| jasone wrote:
| Thumb shift keys are definitely an (incremental) improvement
| over the traditional placement, but they require a yet bigger
| commitment to retraining from the standard keyboard layout.
| I've been using Kinesis keyboards for 25 years, and finally
| this year committed to moving the shifts to the thumbs. This
| was worthwhile for me, but I hesitate to recommend the, ahem,
| shift to others.
| convolvatron wrote:
| why not both? despite having it mapped there for 20+ years I
| still don't use the thumb-shift. but for some chords its
| really a lot nicer.
| lowmagnet wrote:
| Hm, Ergodox don't either, at least in the suggested default
| layout.
| tifadg1 wrote:
| So this looks like an updated kinesis advantage 2 - added
| bluetooth, more ergonomy options.
|
| Kinesis advantage 2 helped me deal with carpal tunnel syndrome
| and forced to learn 10 finger typing, among other things.
|
| As someone interacting with the pc for 8+ hours, this is easily
| the most impactful 450 Eur I've ever spent.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| Holy shit finally!
|
| I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with
| Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it
| but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are
| too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other
| non-split keyboard out there).
|
| I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed
| keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps
| (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped
| layout was tough.
|
| I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who
| cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a
| long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as
| hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350
| keyboard.
|
| I'm so glad this is a thing!
| huang47 wrote:
| love the split design but the new challenge will be where I can
| mount the magic trackpad LOL
| bayofpigs wrote:
| Been using the Advantage for decades. Splitting the two sides is
| a terrific idea. Always wanted to mount a split keyboard to the
| sides of a zero-gravity chair so will try it out with this.
|
| Two features I wished they would offer: 1. A nub-mouse like the
| Thinkpad 2. A touchpad in the center of the keyboard (not needed
| for the split)
| ianai wrote:
| Yes, I've even given them feedback asking for a nib or
| something somewhere. I used velcro to attach a trackpad to the
| middle of one of my Advantage2 keyboards and it helps. (If I
| had my personal choice, it'd probably be a trackball instead of
| a nib.)
|
| Their keyboards are absolutely fantastic!
| miguelmurca wrote:
| > Use stronger thumbs rather than weaker pinkies to access
|
| For some reason that sentence is extremely funny to me
| cmauniada wrote:
| No function keys is a huge deal breaker for me, I don't have any
| problem sticking to my advantage2.
| archarios wrote:
| looks like there is a function layer. Layers are nice because
| they make it so you don't have to move your hands far from home
| row.
| cmauniada wrote:
| I've had such a bad experience with the macbook layering
| (touchbar too), I feel like it might be more hassle having to
| turn the layer on and then press the key.
|
| Whereas with a dedicated fn row, it would be a lot easier.
| I'm quite happy with my adv2, but I can't wait for the
| reviews.
| ioman wrote:
| I have been waiting for this keyboard for 20 years
| dogma1138 wrote:
| I would like to see them partner with Logitech and integrate
| Logitech's wireless tech into this and get rid of the cables all
| together and have a much lower latency interface than BT.
| candyman wrote:
| I was having some serious wrist and shoulder pain. Turns out it
| was related to my mouse which I kept to the right side of my
| keyboard. I moved it directly in front of the keyboard so it's in
| the middle and my pains disappeared. I may still take a look at
| this keyboard because the older you get the more you need. I've
| now been at the keyboard since 1979 and that's some wear and
| tear.
| danr4 wrote:
| Try a trackball mouse. I sport a Logitech Ergo MX with a 30deg
| tilt. Similar to you it's in front of the keyboard. The fact
| you don't need the mouse to move at all is amazing.
| itsjango wrote:
| I used the same with a freestyle 2 and a Logitech on left
| when right gets tired. How do you position it in front of the
| keyboard? Seems weird
| pen2l wrote:
| Oh, finally a big keyboard manufacturer has the cojones to move
| Capslock away from prime keyboard space.
|
| I have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically
| separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my
| Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll
| probably get this 360.
|
| I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and
| the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards
| without having to set it up.
| stavros wrote:
| > cajones
|
| I don't think a lack of drawers was the problem!
| jbellis wrote:
| I've wanted a bluetooth Advantage for years, but going from the
| vestigal F keys to none at all is making this a tough decision.
| meremortals wrote:
| Currently use the split Kinesis Freestyle2. On macOS, Karabiner's
| "Mouse Keys" mod allows me to control the cursor by holding the d
| key and using hjkl for left down up right
|
| It's relieved much of my wrist pain, and I always flirt with the
| idea of trying a full on Advantage
| dave_sid wrote:
| Kinesis Advantage keyboards saved my career. I had bad carpal
| tunnel syndrome. I tried evening out there. This is the only
| thing that remotely worked.
| timbert wrote:
| I'll second that. I've owned two of these keyboards (one for
| work, one for home) for 16 years and they are still going
| strong. Nothing else really worked for me. They've taken me
| through 3 employers now.
|
| It does take some getting used to, but once you've made the
| transition, you won't want to go back. You'll type faster, with
| almost no strain, and more accurately.
| dwringer wrote:
| I didn't suffer from carpal tunnel but I'd get a lot of tension
| in my back and shoulders leading to sharp pains and deep aches
| that would last for days. Started using an Advantage2 and
| trackball in my non-dominant hand at work and within a week the
| symptoms were gone (and have stayed gone for a few years). I
| still use a normal keyboard and mouse in my dominant hand at
| home but the time spent that way is much less.
| jtth wrote:
| Same. I would not be able to do the last 8 years of my life if
| it weren't for these keyboards.
| endisneigh wrote:
| If you're seriously thinking about buying this go try the other
| Kinesis keyboards first. After you get in the ergonomic territory
| I find the comfort increases to be very marginal.
|
| IMHO assuming you have no ergonomic setup at all you're better
| off buying a Kinesis Freestyle, a used Steelcase/Herman Miller
| chair, and a VESA mount for your monitor/laptop to make it eye
| level - all of which can be had for the cost of the Pro version.
|
| That being said this looks like a very nice purchase for those
| who have the money to micro optimize.
| linsomniac wrote:
| FWIW: We had ergonomics consultants in 3-4 years ago and they
| recommended displays be lower because having them higher makes
| your eyes open wider and dry out more. If you have problems
| with dry eyes, maybe try lowering your display?
| thebean11 wrote:
| That's super interesting I have never heard or thought of
| that. I wonder how that compares to tilting your head back
| slightly to get the same eye:monitor angle?
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| This is all getting into personal preference, but AFAIK,
| ergonomic standards do not exactly recommend eye level,
| they recommend that looking in a straight line you should
| see over top of edge of the monitor. There's definitely
| some tradeoffs to be had as having the monitor too low can
| put stress on your neck (which translates to neck pain
| after a while).
| tehnub wrote:
| That sounds reasonable. What I've seen from various
| websites, and enjoy from personal experience, is having
| the top of the monitor at, or slightly above, eye level.
| Ninjinka wrote:
| I picked up a Kinesis Advantage on Craigslist for $100 a year ago
| and that's easily been the best $100 I've spent. I've found
| myself wishing I could travel with it, but it's so huge that's
| really not feasible. This new design makes that look more
| possible, and the bluetooth option is a huge plus. So I'll
| definitely be purchasing.
| zeeb wrote:
| Very similar vibes to the dactyl, if you're feeling handy and
| interested in a little DIY...
|
| https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard
| jagger27 wrote:
| The Dactyl gives Kinesis vibes, you mean! :^)
|
| Kinesis has been around since the early 90s making keyboards
| like this.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Dactyl is quite a high bar for "a little DIY" ;)
| tehnub wrote:
| There are a good number of people who sell pre-builts for
| reasonable prices (e.g. https://bastardkb.com/), but these
| are often one-person endeavors, and with part shortages,
| they've been out of stock a lot recently.
| rangersanger wrote:
| I picked up a Kinesis a few month ago and it's been a life
| changer. I've struggled with shoulder pain since as far back as I
| can remember. I'd done PT, dry needling, massage, etc etc. I'd
| even sprung for a personal ergonomic assessment. I'm a cyclist
| and and keyboard jockey, so most of my waking life is spent in
| positions that seemed to make it worse. At times it prevented me
| from sleeping, doing things I enjoyed, etc. I wear a 42 jacket,
| so I'm not crazy wide or anything.
|
| I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were
| a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of
| just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new
| career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit
| slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost
| completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost
| immediate.
| deagle50 wrote:
| I've had shoulder pain for a couple of years now and I'm
| reading this right after I bought an old 500 on eBay for $100
| two hours ago. I love my Niz topre clone but I need a healthier
| layout, and now I'm pretty stoked.
| johnthedebs wrote:
| Out of curiosity: where/what type of shoulder pain did you
| have, and what movements triggered it?
| cma wrote:
| Where are you positioning your mouse, even farther out, or in-
| between the split?
| archarios wrote:
| I put mine further out
| jamie_ca wrote:
| I've been using a Freestyle 2 for a year+ now, 10" split,
| mouse sits in the middle.
|
| While typing it keeps my arms on the chair's armrests with my
| hands just extending forward, and the current armrest height
| keeps my wrists an inch or so above the desk so I don't need
| to worry about tracking down wrist pads or such.
| dwringer wrote:
| This was exactly my experience as well.
| gbrown_ wrote:
| It's a shame they couldn't get hot-swapable switches to work [1].
| I have an ErgoDox with MX Browns which hasn't seen the light of
| day for a while. If I were to make a large outlay again on a
| keyboard I'd want to buy with the switches I now know I want or
| no switches and fit them myself. TBH I could take a soldering
| iron to my ErgoDox I just haven't had the motivation.
|
| As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have
| much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo
| in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a
| Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually
| tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again
| the post COVID future.
|
| [1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1470446358372896772
|
| [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html
| simonsaysso wrote:
| If you're looking for something small but more ergonomic than a
| Plank, take a look at the Atreus (either as a DIY or in a kit
| from Keyboario[1]). I also had issues with the Plank but the
| slight angle of the keys on the Atreus has been extremely
| comfortable for me.
|
| [1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
| gbrown_ wrote:
| Yeah I'm pretty familiar with most keyboard offerings. I'm
| just not keen on the Atreus' lack of a surrounding case/the
| key caps themselves being the edge. I know it's only an
| atheistic quibble but I guess I'm fussy like that.
| thebean11 wrote:
| Love the small size, but the layout is too different from a
| "regular" keyboard for me to consider it; the switching costs
| between it and my laptop would be too high. Placement of
| shift, super (I use caps lock as super), and tab being the
| biggest issues.
| alostpuppy wrote:
| I just bought two and use one on top of my laptop. Or
| perfect but it works out alright.
| fulafel wrote:
| Hot swap switches would be a killer RAS feature for a KB. Throw
| in redundant power and multipath USB with chipkill ECC in the
| MCU and it can be the longest uptime device in your data
| center...
| pault wrote:
| Hot swappable switches is a common (premium) feature in the
| mech keyboard world. There are many examples, but the ergodox
| EZ is one that is very similar to TFA, but without the
| contours.
| chrsig wrote:
| I've been using a kenesis advantage for the last several years,
| and absolutely love it.
|
| And I'm incredibly excited about this, mostly
|
| Hits: - Split design - multiple bluetooth pairings/wireless
| connection
|
| Misses: - No function keys?
| archarios wrote:
| There's a function layer. So you can still hit the function
| keys, just have to hit another button first.
| muditmudit wrote:
| Is it just me, or does it look like another ergodox clone/fork? I
| mean, I'm happy. I hope this would make the split layout even
| more common place.
| jerlam wrote:
| The Kinesis "contoured" design with thumb clusters is almost 30
| years old, and itself was a clone of the Maltron design - so I
| think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone of the
| Kinesis.
| muditmudit wrote:
| Ha, I didn't know that. Thanks. Learned something new today.
| spiderice wrote:
| > so I think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone
| of the Kinesis.
|
| Seems to me like the Ergo almost exactly cloned the thumb
| cluster, and the Kinesis 360 almost exactly cloned the Ergo
| split design. They are clearly both drawing inspiration from
| each other, and there isn't one "clone"
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| Making a split version is kind of an obvious option and
| Ergodox was _far_ from the first fully split keyboard. Two
| people can both have the same idea (which is why patents
| are patently unfair).
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