[HN Gopher] A deep dive on a Facebook reseller of bikes stolen i... ___________________________________________________________________ A deep dive on a Facebook reseller of bikes stolen in Colorado Author : epa Score : 224 points Date : 2021-12-18 18:36 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (bikeindex.org) (TXT) w3m dump (bikeindex.org) | throwaway82931 wrote: | > _Ideally, this article would hopefully help de-platform this | seller off of Facebook, but we aren 't holding our breath on that | one. Facebook is basically terrible about this, and their | existing mechanisms for dealing with reporting sellers like this | simply don't work._ | | > [...] | | > _There is no button to click where you can explain to anybody | at FB "this is a repeat seller of bikes stolen in Colorado, and | here's our proof, and here's our contact info." etc. It is almost | as if their system for reporting stolen goods is designed not to | work._ | | So "storefront for stolen goods" is another way Facebook makes | our lives worse. | g8oz wrote: | In the 2000s Craigslist was threatened by a coalition of 40 | state attorneys general into policing their sex ads....Facebook | will need something similar. | lotsofpulp wrote: | I would rather the government do their job and police and | prosecute illegal acts. | throwaway82931 wrote: | Like prosecuting Facebook for colluding in the sale of | stolen property? | Calvin02 wrote: | I'm genuinely curious. How would you propose Facebook | enforce this? | | People selling bikes include both first-hand buyers and | second-hand buyers (people who bought it from someone | else). | | Without a central registry like what we have for cars, I | don't know what Facebook could do. | bhance wrote: | States enforce pawn laws through electronic systems like | LEADS. FB, offerup, and every other platform out there | letting thieves fence things with impunity could | implement same. | 8note wrote: | Disallow selling bikes. If you can't figure out a way to | only allow legal resales, you shouldn't be in the | business | novok wrote: | And hurt everyone who is legit selling their own bike | too. | bryan_w wrote: | Facebook has all the information any willing police | officer/DA would need to capture the thieves. All they | would need to do is go to a judge and ask. | | Also the legislature could make laws to make it easier to | send bike thieves to jail. | | The government != Facebook and it's better that way since | we can vote to change things that we find wrong with the | government, but lack that ability with FB | jessaustin wrote: | Attorneys general DGAF about cyclists. If they did, there | would be more prosecutions for vehicular assault/murder. | novok wrote: | Wonder if there has been a biking political group that got | a 'bicycle DA' elected in and what happened. | walrus01 wrote: | In Vancouver if your bike gets stolen there's also an almost | _literal_ storefront for stolen goods. If your bike gets stolen | and is worth a few thousand dollars there 's a good chance it | will turn up within a few hours to a few days at a street | market of stolen goods, in a specific several block zone of | East Hastings. | | https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=east+hast... | | If it is _really_ high end (like $7000+ Canadian dollar value) | and the theft was targeted rather than random, more likely it | might get parted out /sold as components on facebook or sent to | another provice for sale by an organized group. Very | occasionally Vancouver police or RCMP will find a storage unit | full of $7000+ bikes that are being collected together in one | place prior to transport out of province. | hhmc wrote: | The thing I find surprising about high-end bike crime -- it | seems easy to crack down on -- if there's any desire to do | so. | | Acquire some bait bikes, then put some 40mm GPS trackers | somewhere unusual in the bike (the chain stays?), maybe this | requires a bit of surgery, but this seems like a relatively | small cost. Then raid whatever warehouse they end up in. | | I guess there's no real political will to do this. | vkou wrote: | > I guess there's no real political will to do this. | | Correct. Police generally don't give two figs about | property crime. | walrus01 wrote: | chainstays seem like it would be a hard technical problem | since cutting open/accessing the inside of a chain stay | would greatly weaken a bike. and on road bikes/hybrid bikes | the chainstay diameter can be quite narrow. | | Some sort of GPS+LTE data modem and battery might be easily | integrated into a seatpost based tracker, or stem, or | combined stem-bar unit. A bit tricky since either aluminum | or carbon fiber structural components are RF opaque. | | maybe mounted in one of the areas in the downtube or seat | tube that's designed into modern road bikes for ultegra/di2 | internal battery mounting, or related to power meter | crankset mounting. | hhmc wrote: | I think the downside of seatpost/stem is that it's more | easy to check. Good point about RF, didn't consider that. | I still think it's within the realms of possibility | though? | walrus01 wrote: | Maybe built into/epoxied to the inside-facing-side of | crankset arms? Such that it looks like an expensive power | meter crank. Definitely within the realm of possibility | and I have heard that people have successfully done it as | a DIY approach. | verve_rat wrote: | Maybe they don't need to be hidden that well. If one or | slip past then you can track those to the warehouse and | send a few people to jail. | | After that people can add fake trackers (maybe an antenna | lead under the seat). Now the thieves have extra | uncertainty, raising the cost to steal. And working | trackers will be mixed in with the fake ones, making each | bike a gamble. | georgeoliver wrote: | This is a great article. The resale prices of the bikes are also | interesting (in the mid 4 figures USD range), considering the per | capita income of Mexico vs the USA. | umanwizard wrote: | There are plenty of people in Mexico that have that kind of | disposable income. Fewer than in the US, sure, but Mexico is a | rich country by global standards and its wealth is very | unequally distributed. | walrus01 wrote: | I can't say that I'm familiar with bikeindex, it seems to be | generally the same idea as 529 garage which is much more commonly | used in BC/WA/OR/CA. | | https://project529.com/garage | | Donations to 529 are encouraged and you can buy their sticker, | but you can also register your new bike for free just by taking a | few photos of it, your bill of sale, and its serial number | (typically embossed into the bottom bracket somewhere). Takes a | max of 5-10 minutes to do to set up new account and register a | bike. | | I am loathe to recommend the use of Facebook for anything, but | people in the metro Vancouver area have taken it on themselves to | create a group called Stolen Bikes Vancouver which has | successfully crowdsourced the location and return of bikes to | some people. It's at least better than doing nothing, in the | almost total lack of law enforcement cooperation. | | https://www.facebook.com/groups/stolenbike604// | throwaway82931 wrote: | > _I am loathe to recommend the use of Facebook for anything, | but [...] It 's at least better than doing nothing_ | | Is it? A central theme of the article is how Facebook is | facilitating bike theft by providing essential electronic | storefront space, and that you can't get Facebook to take down | such storefronts. | walrus01 wrote: | yes, though as facebook seems to be a lowest-common- | denominator method of social media communications for many | people, even if they use it rarely, I am not aware of any | other 4000 person group for sharing stolen bike information | in that specific city. | | simultaneously you've got stolen bike sales going on within | the facebook marketplace and also a group of people trying to | find/recover their stolen bikes. | gs17 wrote: | > and that you can't get Facebook to take down such | storefronts. | | This really surprised me given the difficulty I had with | Facebook Marketplace incorrectly taking down my listings and | refusing to put them back up (one was an empty aquarium, | taken down for selling "live animals"). | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | The remarkable thing about modern online platforms that | have zero accountability or customer service is that they | somehow manage to have an alarmingly high false positive | rate and false negative rate at the same time. It remains | unclear to me if this is inevitable at their scale, or | simply that they really are that bad. | [deleted] | softbuilder wrote: | Bike Index is very well known at least in OR/WA (I'm in PDX) | and has been around a long time. I appreciate you're supportive | of another effort but you don't need to push one effort down to | lift another up. | walrus01 wrote: | I don't see where I said anything disparaging bikeindex, it | certainly can't hurt to register a bike or search on both | sites. My comment was a one person sample size anecdote of | what I've commonly seen used on the west coast. | softbuilder wrote: | > it seems to be generally the same idea as 529 garage | which is much more commonly used in BC/WA/OR/CA. | | This read (to me) as "sure, but the REAL thing is over | here", stated as authoritative fact, not a one person | sample size anecdote. | walrus01 wrote: | interestingly both sites want to claim to be the single | authoritative source of data, and place to register and | search for stolen bikes, but the "market" for such online | services is really split between the two... or maybe | there's a 3rd online bike registry I'm totally unaware of | as well? | | from the bikeindex faq (https://bikeindex.org/help): | | ===== | | Right now people with good intentions buy stolen bikes | because there isn't a single searchable, simple resource | to check before buying a bike. | | Bike Index is that resource. The next time you buy a used | bike, check the Index first. | | ===== | | 529 garage also would seem to present as if _it_ is the | only source of data... | | https://project529.com/garage/faq/en/ | | in reality I think the data is split between the two | sites. My bike is registered on 529, this has provided | motivation to me to also submit the same photos/data to | bikeindex for a belt and suspenders type approach. | jvolkman wrote: | Didn't think I'd be spending part of my Saturday reading | about drama in the world of bike tracking, but - | | According to this page, project529 uses bikeindex's | stolen bike reports in its own listings, but doesn't | share its data with bikeindex. | | https://bicyclesecurityadvisors.com/protect-your- | bike/index-... | walrus01 wrote: | I was surprised by the table showing 177,000 listings for | one and 700,000 listings in the other. | | Ideally they could both share data and mirror each other | for both registrations and stolen bike listings, for the | most effective use by people who may be unaware of the | other entity. | jacquesm wrote: | I see no pushing down. | sethherr wrote: | Donate to Bike Index! We're more widely used everywhere except | for Vancouver. Also, we wrote this article! And Bike Index is a | non profit, so it makes sense to donate to us, rather than a | for profit company. | | https://bikeindex.org/donate | slim wrote: | Off topic, but classic film to watch : Ladri di bicyclette, by | Vittorio de Sica | | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040522/ | agumonkey wrote: | Who here uses trackers ? apparently there are lorawan based | modules with included data plan and a phone app for less than | 100$ | 0cVlTeIATBs wrote: | I looked to see if they have been sentenced, but instead found | this about the fence of the group: | | "Adrian Rocha Chairez is charged with 31 felony counts including | racketeering. Police say he headed up an organized crime ring | responsible for more than a million dollars in damaged property | and stolen cars and bikes. He was indicted in Denver, where a | judge set bond at $500,000. | | A Boulder judge knocked it down to $10,000. He walked out even | after prosecutors noted he had weapons and ties to Mexico." | | [0] https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/12/08/boulder-pr-bonds- | murr... | starwind wrote: | Hoo boy, this one's good (from the same article): "Police | suspect Savuth and Yulisa Yin in the death and cover-up of a | Longmont real estate broker. They're charged with stealing $3 | million in property from him. They were let out on $500 cash | bonds each, even after prosecutors presented evidence that they | planned to leave the country." | | That's Boulder for you | dannylandau wrote: | I'm from Boulder Colorado, and had 2 bikes stolen as a teenager. | So, this touches very close to home. | soared wrote: | I'm going to put some of the blame on the Denver | government/police for this, but not for a lack of enforcement. If | your bike is impounded or stolen and recovered it is nearly | impossible to retrieve it. You cannot call to see if it was | picked up. You cannot look for it online. You have to show up to | their sketchy office during business hours, wait in line, and ask | the guy to go look through all the bikes and try to find yours. | With hundreds of bikes it almost certainly will not be found. | | The government auctions off some of the bikes and gives or sells | the rest of the bikes to charity. | | Two years ago my bike was locked in a location it should not have | been downtown along with many other bikes. When I came back to | find my bike missing the police officer said all of the bikes | were impounded. I called around, went to the impound place | twice.. but my bike was never found. | | In short, great investigation work by bike index. But their | efforts are hindered by the city. | dillondoyle wrote: | The theft here feels off the charts right now too. | | I know a lot of police have quit and they don't have budget to | increase next class size. Vaccines too.. | | Sympathizers say that cities' new rules on when to engage are a | big cause but it seems to me we can have both enforcement and | no needless violence. To me it feels like police are just | having a temper tantrum saying you don't want us, watch what | happens when we don't do anything. | | I see cop cars breaking traffic laws around cap hill and | downtown and just driving around staring at the homeless camps. | Flipping on lights to go the wrong way down a one way street | around civic building. When there is an OD (all the time) I | just see them sitting in their car doing nothing but wait for | paramedics. zero humanity. | | I can't remember the last time I've seen a traffic enforcement | stop and speeding & illegal parking is out of control. | | I'm not sure if it's uniquely bad here? I know theft is | increasing everywhere. | | I've had my car broken into four times this year, often they | just pull on the topper until it breaks open. Usually nothing | in there. Once went through back window to the front. If a | package is in the entrance more than a day it will be gone. | | Last year I had a probably 300 pound, 4' x 6' wooden crate | stolen from my back parking lot! insane. It was a pretty | expensive marble sink top. | | I've installed cameras and more lights doesn't matter or make | any difference. | | Somewhat off topic but insurance lady on the phone spent 20 | minutes on hold trying to find a way to reject the claim... | Same with my recent travel insurance. Provide them the bare | minimum documentation and say nothing beyond a couple sentences | on the phone they will just sit quietly on the phone waiting | for you to say something, often emotionally since something | crappy happened. they are looking for anything to use against | your claim. Sucks. | tomcam wrote: | That whole situation is profoundly depressing. | ajsnigrutin wrote: | Don't bikes have serial numbers? | | How hard is it to just publish the list of "found" and imponded | bikes, that everyone can see? | enjo wrote: | They use the serial number as a means to identify that you | are actually the owner. Denver has a system where if you | register you bike with the city and your bike is found | they'll notify you. | bhance wrote: | ... and this serial-search system is closed to the public, | whereas Bike index makes this possible to everybody. | mfg4u wrote: | Yes, but usually the first thing thieves do when they steal a | bike is grind away the serial numbers. | dmurray wrote: | The extremely well-organized group detailed in TFA doesn't | grind away the serial numbers, as you can see them in | several of the photographs. | Ma8ee wrote: | And make it clear from the start to any potential buyers | that it is a stolen bike? | vkou wrote: | The buyers are well aware they are buying stolen goods. | ryguytilidie wrote: | ...yes? | tommoor wrote: | Large parts of America seem to still see bikes as "toys" rather | than somewhat expensive vehicles that people depend on. Imagine | if this approach was taken with recovered stolen cars too. | hellbannedguy wrote: | I really feel they just don't see the importance of | retrieving a stolen bike. | | It dosen't bring in any money. They would rather cruise | around and write Revenue Citations? | | While my BP is up, does anyone see what our local police | squads are doing since the Floyd Riots? | | Perceived pain of dealing with public dissatisfaction with | our boys in blue: | | 1. "Ok---the citizens are on to us. They are angry over | abuse, needless pullovers, and the rising price of their | tickets we procure when hiding behind hedges?" | | 2. "By golly they want to defund us? Who's going to pay my | slimony, or my subscription to Netfilx? After all I like me | Dirty Harry. He's a real man!" | | 3. "Sarge---how about just not doing anything. I mean less | than we did before. We will tell the boys in the bad areas of | town to turn a blind eye. Let's watch the crime rate go up? | (At this point I don't know if there's a rize in crime. I see | the same footage of thieves stealing stuff at Nordstrom's | nightly.) | | 4. People see a perceived rise in crime, and all talk of | reform are shelved. There's a 180 shift in public sediment. | | 5. In the end, more money is thrown at the police. Zero | reform. Zero retraining. | | 6. I have seen this senerio of not doing anything and it | seems to work. It used to be called the Blue Flu. | dylan604 wrote: | Except, it is almost the exact same with cars. If your car is | stolen, there is very little chance the cops will actually | help you recover it. If it is impounded, you too get to stand | in line during business hours trying to get it back (if you | can). At some point, those cars are also sold at auction. | | Where are you seeing the difference? | bradlys wrote: | Yeah - seriously. I only found my stolen car because | someone reported it to the police because the people that | were leaving it were being a loud nuisance. | | Oh yeah - it was already being given parking tickets too. | While it was reported stolen. I had to go to the local | court in person in order to get the tickets revoked. | | Law enforcement and the general institution of law _does | not care_. | bhance wrote: | Hello. Article author here. Hit me up if anybody has questions. | bryannn wrote: | Really interesting find. I had previously seen suspicion that | this exact thing was happening. Were these Guerilla Gravity | bikes linked to the showroom burglary that happened earlier | this year? | | Also, could you please try to get this posted on | Pinkbike/VitalMTB? Would like to see this shared on other | common bike sites. | bhance wrote: | Yes, those GG bikes are confirmed. And yes its on PB | somewhere in the forums. And many Colorado FB groups, which | is how new victims which we knew nothing about are now | trickling in. Please spread it wherever you can. | bhance wrote: | PS there are other CO shop robbery bikes in here, we just | didn't spell them all out. But we have confirmations on | others. | bhance wrote: | Guess I'll just run with this: Since this article was | published, here's what has transpired | | My inbox became: | | a) various cyclists in Mexico giving me more info b) new | victims who have read the article, identifying their stolen | bikes in this guy's sales that we posted, including commercial | shop robberies c) people sending copies of his "official | message" to his clients he posted, in which he denies the | claims we make and essentially calls us liars, etc and asks for | his customers support | | After that, Mexican Cycling FB picked it up. FWIW Mex cycling | folks are awesome, we had some really good input and comms with | folks in that community. | | For about 24 hours the store would remove any negative comments | from their page from cyclists and/or customers, far as we could | tell, and all his customers were chiming in how much of a great | shop he was with great deals and great service. Nobody would | address the proof we posted of stolen in his sales. | | As of an hour ago (?) or so the guys page is now gone. | umanwizard wrote: | Did you attempt to report these guys to Mexican police? (I know | Mexico has a reputation for being a failing state, but the | chance something will come of it is at least not zero, surely). | bndw wrote: | Awesome work, glad you guys are still at it. | spamizbad wrote: | Tons of boosted goods land on Facebook Marketplace. It's also | where shoplifting rings tend to dump their goods. | 71a54xd wrote: | The amount of this behavior on eBay is also pretty stunning, | however the rules that have been proposed to curve this basically | stand to completely destroy secondary markets which is horrible | for single use electronics consumption and the environment in | general. | mfashby wrote: | TFA reminded me to go register my own bike, which I had forgotten | to do. I also registered at bikeregister.com which is linked from | the UK police. | literallyaduck wrote: | Facebook should be held to the same standards as pawnshops. | umanwizard wrote: | What standards are pawnshops held to? | bhance wrote: | Here is just one example https://www.portland.gov/code/14/b90 | | check out "14B.90.080 Reporting of Secondhand Dealer | Transactions" | | details differ by state and city, but the gist is "electronic | records of serials are transmitted to law enforcement" etc. | Also items are held for a while, not sold immediately. | bhance wrote: | also Offerup. Please, please please. | windows2020 wrote: | In early high school, we'd ride bikes to the local coffee shop, | lean them against the big windows out front and hangout. Somehow, | no one noticed when mine was snatched one evening. I was pretty | devastated. | | My grandfather drove me around the town the next day to see if I | could spot it. When we were about to give up, I noticed a bike | leaning along side a house near the shop. I could see it from the | street. It looked exactly like mine. It had the same replacement | seat and even a curly bike lock coiled around the handlebars on | the same side I left it. But it had been hastily spray pained. | | We called the police, they arrived and a kid inside noticed the | commotion and came out. They had found the bike at the shop and | took it. I went to inspect it. I was very surprised when I found | the small yard behind the house was packed with around fifty | bikes. To the cop, I said something like, "there's tons of bikes | back here!" I then remembered another friend had theirs stolen as | well. | | He didn't look for himself, and said I couldn't just take the | bike. There was no proof it was mine. So, I said, "what if I can | unlock the bike lock?" I could and was allowed to take it, but it | had been ruined. My prized shiny bike had been banged up and | spray painted. | | The following week my mother read me a letter that had arrived. | The town would not be prosecuting the kid. I was confused. I did | nothing wrong and stayed out of trouble myself. Did their actions | not warrant any consequences? | | My mother ended up going to the police department and insisting | the town prosecute, which they ended up doing. I'm not sure what | happened. Did the consequences dissuade them from stealing a 51st | bike? Their family had failed them, would their community? If not | for religion, what hope did they have? | theturtletalks wrote: | Had my bike stolen twice out of my garage and the first thing I | did was file a police report with the color and brand. Write | down your serial number if you have a bike and so you can | provide that as well. | | I knew the police would not really look for a bike so I scoured | Craigslist, OfferUp, and Facebook Marketplace. Eventually I | found the bike both times. I messaged the person to meet up, | called the police, and provided my report number and the | listing. The police met up the people and got my bike back | twice. | | What happened to the thieves that stole my bike twice and broke | my expensive locks? Absolutely nothing. When I asked the cop | why they weren't cited or charged, he said they were fences. | Guess if you're a fence, you can get away with selling stolen | goods because you can claim you thought you bought the item | legitimately. I'm sure those fences were selling other people's | bikes as well, but cops didn't do anything. | | The deterrence for small crimes is slowly falling as thieves | are realizing that the cops are not punishing thieves even | after catching them red-handed. | itronitron wrote: | That house was probably already well known to the town cops and | they didn't want to deal with the hassle. | tomcam wrote: | If your mom is still around, please thank her for me. | Seriously, that was an amazing thing she did. | cortesoft wrote: | > The town would not be prosecuting the kid. I was confused. I | did nothing wrong and stayed out of trouble myself. Did their | actions not warrant any consequences? | | I feel like there is an unpleasant reality that people either | don't realize or don't want to accept... there is simply not | enough resources to go after every petty criminal with | prosecution. Honestly, I am not even sure it would be a good | idea even if we had the resources... should we spend thousands | on a prosecution over a $50 crime? Will that actually reduce | crime enough to make it worthwhile? | | Criminal prosecution works as a deterrent by being something | that CAN happen for minor crimes, but doesn't always... the | chance they could be prosecuted hopefully deters most would be | criminals, and only prosecuting a few saves money and is more | efficient. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-12-18 23:00 UTC)