[HN Gopher] Midwest Developer ___________________________________________________________________ Midwest Developer Author : luu Score : 110 points Date : 2021-12-27 20:23 UTC (1 days ago) (HTM) web link (lanie.dev) (TXT) w3m dump (lanie.dev) | HeyLaughingBoy wrote: | > In Minnesota, the emphasis is on working hard at whatever you | do, and living a good life | | I moved to Minnesota from Connecticut about 20 years ago. When | describing the company culture during my interview, my manager | said "well, we have a choice of Summer hours to give you more | time off during our very short summers, but come Winter, everyone | just hunkers down and gets to work." Said with a broad smile and | excitement about getting to work! Really nice guy though, and a | damn good engineer. | | I'll just leave this here: | https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/969324.How_to_Talk_Mi... | neartheplain wrote: | I'm a Midwest native and huge fan of the region. It's been great | to see more big tech firms open offices here, in addition to a | rising number of startups and software consulting firms. Was | happily surprised to see that Tundra Labs, who recently launched | a well-reviewed VR full-body tracking product, is based out of | Green Bay, Wisconsin (I am not affiliated, just a Midwest VR | enthusiast): | | https://twitter.com/Tundra_Labs | hangonhn wrote: | How could you forget about the humble Gopher protocol: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol) !? :-) | greenyoda wrote: | One of the earliest graphical web browsers, Mosaic, was also a | product of the Midwest, having been developed at the University | of Illinois: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser) | analog31 wrote: | Greetings from Wisconsin. I'd describe the attitude towards work | a bit differently: I think we tend to have generally healthy | attitudes about work-life balance. I've not seen the 996 culture | here except in some rare cases. When we work, we work. Then we go | home. There's probably a different age distribution among tech | workers, that might be reflected in our attitudes. I have | colleagues who are past 65 and still enjoy coming in and doing | their thing. | | Not everybody hates the winter. I love it. Right now I'm looking | out at a nice snowstorm, and hoping to take a long walk in it. I | believe the trick to dealing with the weather -- hot and cold -- | is to get out and embrace it. If you're outside every day, the | seasons won't take you by surprise. You'll figure out clothing. | You'll find the nice places to take walks or ride your bike. It | doesn't have to happen all at once, or even within the space of | one year. | curiousllama wrote: | > Not everybody hates the winter. | | Absolute truth. | | > I believe the trick to dealing with the weather -- hot and | cold -- is to get out and embrace it. | | I used to routinely need to walk >2 miles over the course of a | day in Chicago winters. I assure you, I still hated it! | | 100 degrees and humid? No problem. Sub-zero? I'm leaving! | mNovak wrote: | I will vouch that the Midwest is highly underrated. People are | friendly; there's way more diversity and culture than people seem | to think; it's affordable. | Supermancho wrote: | My family (parents and siblings) sold their properties in | California and moved to Minnesota, shortly before I moved to | Washington with my wife. 2.5 years later we moved to Fargo. It | looks like Irvine most of the year and has everything you need | in Southern California for a fraction of the price. | mgkimsal wrote: | I grew up in Detroit, but moved south about 15 years ago. I've | got a couple friends from MN, and visited there for a conference | ... maybe 8-9 years ago. I loved the downtown - big enough to | feel like a 'real city', but not overwhelmingly so. That was my | impression, anyway. I was only there for a few days, but really | liked the short vibe I got. I was visiting in July, however, and | kept imagining how brutal the winters would be. I have to imaging | 'as bad as Detroit' or perhaps worse. It was amazing to me how | quickly I don't miss winter/snow at all. I never cared for it, | even when living there, but when you're born in to an area, you | 'live with it'. After a while, much of your life is there, and | leaving can be hard (friends/family/work/etc). | | My family is in 34(f)-degrees-Detroit area right now, while I had | a 72(f)-degrees afternoon. Just could not think of moving back | permanently, but I do like to visit. | transienthrow wrote: | allturtles wrote: | No matter how dismissive one is of the midwest, how could you be | ignorant of the existence of a major metro area like Minneapolis- | St. Paul? Per [0], it's the 16th largest in the U.S. Its teams | participate in every major televised sports league (NFL, NBA, | NHL, MLB). | | I dunno, I almost just don't believe the OP's anecdotes, unless | they are talking to recent arrivals to the U.S. from other | countries. I'm from a significantly smaller Midwestern city than | Minneapolis, and I don't recall anyone ever saying "where's that" | or "are there buildings there" when I say where I'm from. | | [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area | aspaceman wrote: | I grew up pretty close to Chicago and folks in California still | call me "corn boy". | light_hue_1 wrote: | All of this depends on who you are. And a lot of information is | being left out here. I lived in the Midwest for 6 years doing my | PhD. For me, it was beyond horrific. By far the worst place I've | ever been. | | You have black skin? Oh yeah, the Midwest is going to be real | fun. I have seen some horrific racism that blew my mind. Even | Boston, which is notoriously racist, had nothing on the most | liberal parts of the Midwest that I've been to. | | Dare to be gay?! Yeah, I've seen the nice people in the liberal | towns in the Midwest react to two men holding hands. Saying that | it wasn't positive is.. a massive understatement. None of my gay | friends felt remotely comfortable outside the confines of campus. | | You're an atheist? I have seen people shout at atheists calling | them devils and far worse things. | | The Midwest is largely Trump country. I have seen people casually | stop friends who had a Hispanic accent in the supermarket to tell | them to go fuck themselves and go back to their country. | | You want culture? In major towns I can go to the symphony, go to | talks, classes, explore new parts of the town, take tours, go to | concerns or performances, etc. Not to mention that I'm not bound | to having a car and going on endless drives to get to the one | supermarket near me. | | If you're white, straight, and you decide to tolerate hate by | looking away and making sure to never bring up any contentious | issues, yeah, maybe the Midwest is for you. | | I've been there. Never again. | almost_usual wrote: | Most of California is Trump country outside of the Bay Area and | LA. | carlivar wrote: | When does it stop being Trump country and revert back to just | conservative? | almost_usual wrote: | I'm only saying it because that's how the parent referenced | it. | bovermyer wrote: | First off, stop saying "the Midwest" like it's one unified | culture. That's like saying all humans are the same. | | Secondly, Minneapolis specifically is very cosmopolitan. I live | here, and there's a vibrant progressive culture. | | I've seen far more Trumpling culture recently on a drive | through Illinois and Indiana than in my last ten years of | living in Minneapolis. | | I will repeat - do not _ever_ call "the Midwest" one culture | again. | wobblykiwi wrote: | Driving through Illinois during the election last year was | interesting. Having grown up and currently living in Chicago, | you won't see much "Trumpling" (as you put it) culture in the | city proper and much of the surrounding suburbs, but that | changes drastically even an hour or 2 drive out from the | city. It's like an entirely different world. | cozzyd wrote: | Yes, probably the best example is driving down Route 66 | between Joliet and Wilmington. Wilmington greets you with | this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3094815,-88.1413858,3 | a,47.3y... | selectodude wrote: | Unless you're Jussie Smollett :O | profmonocle wrote: | > The Midwest is largely Trump country. | | Minnesota, the state being discussed in the article, hasn't | gone red in a presidential election since 1972 - longer than | any other state. (Only DC has a longer blue streak.) We were | also the first state in the midwest to legalize gay marriage | via legislation rather than a court order. | | Yes, the rural parts of the state are very conservative. (The | district just north of me was Michele Bachmann's.) But this is | true nationwide - just look at rural California or Washington. | cozzyd wrote: | There are certainly parts of the Midwest like you describe, but | not the bigger cosmopolitan cities (Chicago, Minneapolis, | Detroit, Columbus, Madison etc.) that people are likely talking | about here, but overall you're mostly describing rural small | towns all over the country, with a few exceptions (ski towns, | vermont). | thatfunkymunki wrote: | Yeah, being even slightly queer or non-white is majorly | disruptive to leading a reasonable, hate-free life in the | midwest IME (I specifically have experience with Chicago). I | think people that talk about how diverse, open, and respectful | places like Chicago are are either white/straight or have never | lived in a coastal USA city (that is, NYC, SF, LA, Seattle, | etc). | almost_usual wrote: | I can't imagine PNW loggers and NorCal State of Jefferson | types being more open minded than your average Chicagoan. | | The west coast is very conservative outside of major metros. | thatfunkymunki wrote: | my apologies, I specified coastal cities in an edit, since | my original phrasing mentioned only the coast in general. | kayodelycaon wrote: | Having grown up in various places in the Midwest and lived here | most of my life, I've never seen this. What campus was this? | | Cincinnati Pride is a week-long LGBT event that most of the | city gets into. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Pride | istorical wrote: | In flyover country you have insane racists screaming at you for | being gay/black/whatever. | | In NYC/SF you have insane homeless people screaming at you for | ...whatever they are screaming at you for. | | I think the important question is - what percentage of the | population in any of these areas is really shitty to live | around, and how often does a person have these types of | experiences. In either case, it's hard to avoid some form of | unpleasant shitty people. | | All that being said, that really sucks and I hope the world | changes for the better soon. | mikewarot wrote: | It should be noted that CBBS, the first Computerized Bulletin | Board System, was created because of a snow storm in the Chicago | area. Constraints inspire creativity. | yesimahuman wrote: | I live in Madison and believe it or not we have coastal VC-backed | startups (including my own and a SoftBank-backed unicorn or two) | and lots of professional engineers. A lot of people on the coasts | are frankly just not that knowledgeable outside of their bubble | and that's okay, it really doesn't mean that what the Midwest has | isn't significant. I have actually grown to quite like being an | under the radar city for all the benefits that brings and having | a different perspective on America | neartheplain wrote: | There's also a full-fledged Google office in Madison, in | addition to their offices in Chicago and (soon) Rochester, | Minnesota. Working as a developer and living in the Midwest | doesn't necessarily mean leaving Big Tech. | marktangotango wrote: | The worst part of being a developer in the midwest is the | companies; banks, financial services, insurance, telecoms, | insurance, banks. Did I mention insurance and banks? Of course | there is more variety, but I think most would agree there's not a | lot of cutting edge stuff going on "here" generally. | | Growing remote oppurtunities do mitigate that, but the number of | companies trying to "modernize" their infrastructure is... | depressing. | yesimahuman wrote: | There are legacy companies everywhere. There are more than | enough interesting startups or remote opportunities in the | Midwest (city depending) that this isn't really true any more | PascLeRasc wrote: | The interesting companies (Duolingo, Argo, Root, maybe | Capital One, etc) in the Midwest won't hire anyone from | regular local universities. They get all their people from | CMU/Stanford/UCs. If you went to a place like Ohio State the | best you can hope for locally is DBA at an insurance company. | A lot of the engineers I graduated with have given up on this | and are doing real estate or retraining to become a teacher. | You can work for SpaceX, Google, Amazon, but you need to move | out of the Midwest first. So out of college you need to ask | yourself if giving up all your local friends and family is | worth having a fulfilling career. It's hard. | | The workplace culture is different too. If you're in the rust | belt, your managers over age 50 came from manufacturing lines | and were taught that they need to literally see you looking | like you're working all the time and they'll use phrases like | "extract value from human capital". They'll want you to beg | and plead for permission to use your PTO, but then put in | your performance review that you're getting a 1% instead of a | 2% raise for excessive time off utilization. My friend's | telecom workplace just announced that their holiday bonus is | that they may wear jeans on Fridays all 2022. | yesimahuman wrote: | As a startup employer in the Midwest this doesn't resonate | with me at all. We don't care what school you went to as | long as you're good. In this hiring climate no one can | afford to be weirdly selective about school | endemic wrote: | Same here, I helped do recruiting for a previous | employer, a healthcare tech company in Columbus, OH. | AFAIK the other local tech companies are fairly | egalitarian regarding higher education. | PascLeRasc wrote: | Midwest is broad and from what I hear about Chicago and | Minneapolis they're much more progressive. I'm referring | mostly to Ohio/western Pennsylvania/WV. | | It's good to hear that you'd give local grads a chance | though, thanks. | yesimahuman wrote: | As a midwesterner I should know better than to make | generalizations about what is a huge and diverse region | of America, so good reminder! | ralmidani wrote: | I live in Columbus, worked at Chase, and currently work at | ScriptDrop (we coordinate prescription deliveries). I don't | have a CS degree, just a bootcamp. I haven't encountered, | or heard of anyone who has encountered, any of the issues | you mention (I've never had a PTO request turned down or | even questioned). | | Small sample size, so maybe there are idiotic companies and | managers out there, but they're probably not as common as | you suggest. | | Also, I prefer working for a company that has demonstrated | and tangible real-world value. Not every problem in the | world is an algorithm away from being solved. | josefdlange wrote: | This is so lovely and so remarkably familiar. Thank you so much | for sharing. Having recently moved back to the midwest (SE WI) | after being in the Seattle area for almost ten years, I feel so | much of this. You've put it into words far better than I could | dream of doing. | [deleted] | jeffreportmill1 wrote: | Thank you for sharing your experience. I recently became a | midwest developer myself having moved to Chicago 2 years ago and | I've wondered about the lives of colleagues in this part of the | country as we've explored a little of Wisconsin and Indiana. They | warned me that 6 weeks of the year I would wish to be anywhere | else. 2019 was fine - I found the cold invigorating, and with | like more than a few inches of accumulated snow, I thought | reports had been exaggerated. The winter of 2020-2021, disabused | me of that - 3 feet of snow piled outside for 2-3 months has | humbled me. | | I started as a southern developer 30 years ago, but in Texas I | was considered a hippie. When I moved to Silicon Valley to fix | that, I was considered too much of a Texan. After 10 years in CA | we went back to Texas which felt more like home, but | paradoxically was more isolating, because I knew very few | software developers (working for myself). I must have thought | this adventure in Chicago was going to be my happy medium. | | So I wish you continued good luck in Minnesota. Say hello to Al | Franken and Garrison Keillor for me (two Minnesotans I've enjoyed | listening to for years). | blockwriter wrote: | The Indiana Sand Dunes are a good day trip into Indiana from | Chicago. | cozzyd wrote: | My work takes me to Antarctica and Greenland, so now I don't | think Chicago winters are all that bad anymore :). | cpher wrote: | Welcome to Chicago. I've lived here 15+ years, and Illinois | most of my life. And I _still_ hate winter LOL. | Minor49er wrote: | This take is pretty spot-on. Many developers also move to | Minnesota, so there are some pretty striking personality clashes | in odd ways. As long as you like craft beer, though, you're | golden | the_only_law wrote: | > As long as you like craft beer, though, you're golden | | Depends are we talking about "oops all IPA's" type craft beer | or a nice varied selection of styles and flavors. | piefayth wrote: | You wouldn't believe the extent of the beer scene in the Twin | Cities. There's pretty much any beer you could imagine, then | probably some ones you can't. | | I moved here from Chicago ~6 years ago and was disappointed | at how much worse the TC food scene was (it still has some | gems, and is improving, as another commenter pointed out), | but immediately I noticed a stark contrast in my social | circles. In Chicago people would invite you to bars and | restaurants, but in Minneapolis nearly everyone I met | (coworkers, dates, etc) wanted to go to a brewery! And it's | clear why - there's genuinely fantastic beers on every | corner. You could spend months just trying to sample all the | single cans that your local liquor store sells. | | Even beer haters would be delighted at the nice array of | sours and ciders around. My mom, a known beer-despiser, still | asks me when we can get more "nice beers from that place you | took me." | rmason wrote: | You think it's bad being from Minneapolis-St. Paul, try telling | them you're originally from Detroit! | | It's getting better but the amount of ignorance about Detroit is | amazing! I tried once talking an evangelist into adding Detroit | to the road show around twenty years ago. There had just been an | article in Time magazine and it said something like the city had | the lowest number of college graduates per capita of any major | city and there were less than 670,000 people. The guy immediately | hit me with that fact. He said we couldn't possibly go to a place | that small and if we did there wouldn't be that many developers. | | I said that may be true for the city of Detroit but the Detroit | metro has over four million people and I assure you there are a | lot of developers. So they decided to add Detroit as a tour stop | and he later told me that it was one of the largest and most | enthusiastic audiences on the entire tour. | | Even today Detroit gets left off most tech tours and when one | does add them they're pleasantly surprised by the turn out. | That's despite the fact that Amazon, Microsoft, Google and | Twitter have offices there. | michigama wrote: | There's something particularly exciting about Detroit that's | hard to put my finger on, especially the last few years of | development in the Midtown area. Something about all of the | lovely art deco architecture slowly being re-occupied and | revitalized by tech/retail/restaurants makes it an incredibly | interesting time and place to be around. | mishftw wrote: | "In Minnesota, the emphasis is on working hard at whatever you | do, and living a good life." | | Having done my undergrad at the University of Michigan and spent | a year and half in Detroit afterwards, I relate a lot to this | article. People are just nicer and more personable here, there is | less arrogance and an attitude of "doing the work". | kayodelycaon wrote: | I lasted about 2 years in the PNW before I decided to go back to | the midwest. It's worked out really well. A side benefit, | Cincinnati is within driving distance of a lot of furry | conventions. (Before the pandemic...) | | The midwest is a lot more laid back than other places I've been. | People are friendly here. I've had a few nice conversations with | random strangers, just because we were standing in the same line. | If you don't want to talk to people in line, that's fine too. | You're not forced to interact with anyone, but there are a lot of | opportunities if you want to. | jplhomer wrote: | Des Moines, IA software engineer checking in! | | It's great. Not terribly exciting, but the hours/culture/WL | balance others have described holds up. | kerneloftruth wrote: | This is very good, and applies to so many people from the | Midwest. This describes, pleasantly and without vitriol, the | attitudes (shaped by perspective) that many coastal folks with | little exposure to the rest of the US have. These are the same | folks who call the Midwest states "flyover states", implying | "nobody who's anybody stops or lives there". | | I've been asked by someone from Boston if we celebrated | Independence Day in Texas, and have seen a UC Berkeley graduate | become genuinely frightened by the sight of a Southern Living | cookbook. | | Being ignorant of places you haven't been to is understandable, | but it seems a common pattern for those in the Midwest to see the | coastal places as "special" and desirable to at least visit; | whereas geographically ignorant Californians (the ones I'm most | familiar with) generally view all the interior states as | "lesser". Granted, this is a bit of generalized judgement on my | own part. | binarynate wrote: | The part about working on side projects in the winter resonates | with me. I've lived in Indiana my entire life and am considering | moving to Texas to escape the cold, gray winters. Part of me is | worried that I'll be less productive in the winter because of | that, but I think it will be worth the tradeoff. | 015a wrote: | Being a midwest developer: | | - Cost of living. Its the cheapest place in the US to live. | | - Gender ratio. This is something new grads should absolutely | consider. The gender ratio even on midwest tech teams feels | nation-leading, with many of the companies I've talked to | (including my own) near 50-50. But even beyond tech; its far more | equitable here. This is a theme I see all the time with west- | coast tech; they talk about making change, implement tons of | policies to try to it happen, but here, its already happened. We | just don't talk about it. This is important for new grads even | beyond their job; finding a partner here is so much easier & more | fun. | | - Pay & Job Security. Some companies are "old" and still stuck in | their ways and won't match more high-tech salaries. You'll find | that anywhere. Other companies have more progressive leadership, | despite being a traditionally old business, and pay aggressively | well. You'll also find that anywhere. You have to spend some time | researching who is who, but: these companies have tons of money, | desire to modernize, and the best part: very little sense of what | being a "good engineer" means. Read into that what you will, but: | you literally won't ever have a problem finding a job. I've | gotten offers after literally just casually talking with someone | for fifteen minutes in a company's engineering leadership at a | tech meetup. | | - Remote. Many west coast companies are now paying west coast | salaries regardless of work location. Local companies are pushing | for more work-from-home or hybrid. | | - Novelty. Tech still feels nascent in many of these cities. | Maybe not MSP/Chicago, but more of the second tier midwestern | cities. The communities are small, three-person startups are | still everywhere, and there's a startling amount of "old money" | looking to invest. Most awesomely, there's much less bullshit; in | general, you hear what some of these companies are working on and | think "shit, that will sell". | | - Weather. You get used to it. But you know what we don't get? | Wildfires, hurricanes, and earthquakes. Tornadoes are common, but | they generally don't strike major cities. I'd take the midwest | environment over west coast any day; warm weather every day is | fine, but imagine buying a house in an area that's years overdue | for an earthquake that will level your city. | strombofulous wrote: | > Cost of living. Its the cheapest place in the US to live. | | When I lived in a "low COL town" that wasn't in the midwest | (about 2 hours from a major city of any kind and about an hour | in various directions from a couple small cities) people would | say this all the time... "Sure I'm only making 60% of what I | could be but my CoL is so low!!"[0] | | But my rent was still over $600/mo for a 2-room apartment | (each) | | Gas costed the same it costs everywhere else | | Walmart prices were walmart prices. | | Restaurants were typically cheap but that's because they | weren't amazing - the population couldn't afford to sustain an | high-end restaurant. There are cheap restaurants everywhere. | | I felt like it was cheap compared to outliers like seattle and | the bay area, but not cheap on its own. I'm interested in how | this might be different from the midwest. What kinds of | products or services stand out to you as significantly | contributing towards a low CoL? | | [0] With remote the bit about 60% is no longer as accurate, but | it's what a lot of people said at the time, and some of them | still make comparatively little and say they're fine because of | the low CoL. | tandymodel100 wrote: | The gender ratio thing is weird and a surprising reason for why | people my age seem to want to work in New York City. I really | don't get it - as a non-white guy people like me are out of | luck no matter the ratio. | adamrezich wrote: | when I was at GDC 2016 I met a couple who are somewhat well-known | in those circles and while hanging out one night they started | talking about the complex mix of feelings they had about having | just moved back to San Francisco after being away for years. they | said that because the weather is so mild and largely unvaried | there, it's easy for one to lose track of time month after month, | and the years sometimes just seem to run together as a result. | this was incredibly interesting to me, having grown up in South | Dakota (whose status as "midwest" is disputed (if not "midwest," | then what?)), which was an experience much like the one in this | article. recently worsening cold-season arthritis aside, I very | much enjoy the seasonal weather. "The summers are humid, hot, and | fleeting, yet caked in an energy that can only be felt when a | resource is limited" really resonates with me (except for the | humid part). | dehrmann wrote: | > if not "midwest," then what? | | Great plains. | boc wrote: | As someone from the middle of Kansas, it's funny reading someone | describe Minneapolis like a sleepy backwater town. If you truly | grew up in the heartland, major cities like Minneapolis and | Chicago feel incredibly alive and full of energy. | | Minneapolis is a cosmopolitan city. It has the second most | theater seats of any US city (after NYC). It has lots of great | food and international diversity, being home to large diasporas | from Africa and SE Asia. If you're a Bay Area native, the most | shocking thing about Minneapolis will be the weather, not the | culture or people. | | In my opinion, the worst part about the weather in the Midwest is | the variability. Good luck trying to plan a few days ahead - | fronts whip through and drop or raise the temps dramatically. | Rain/sleet/snow can happen almost anytime, and the intraday | changes in weather are going to be foreign to anyone accustomed | to coastal living. I've personally seen it go from 90F to 28F | within 24 hours. If you can handle that, then Minneapolis is a | great place to live. | samschooler wrote: | I was interested in the "second most theater seats of any US | city (after NYC)" claim. After a little google, it looks like | its actually _per capita_. Which is still cool, but not the | same. | | https://thetangential.com/2014/07/29/sorry-twin-cities-that-... | hirsin wrote: | Ha, thank you, I was about to inject the pro-Cleveland piece | mentioned in your link, so that was educational. How | bounteous our country is to have so many second place cities! | MobileVet wrote: | 'Pro-Cleveland' is something you don't hear a lot, lol. If | it wasn't for the gray winters it really would be a solid | place. I grew up there and went to school in Indiana. The | difference in sun was remarkable and made a lot of | difference when it was cold. | yesimahuman wrote: | Yes it's hilarious hearing people describe midwestern towns as | quaint when we have massive cities like Chicago and pretty much | everything most other coastal cities have | cozzyd wrote: | Yeah after living in Chicago for the last 7 years, SF doesn't | feel very big like it used to when I lived in the Bay Area | many years ago. | nso95 wrote: | From Oklahoma and I agree - feels like they think the midwest | is some sort of alien world... | vineyardmike wrote: | As a new englander, living in the PNW, dreaming of returning to | california sun, I sure do miss my time in the midwest (although | i've never been to Minnesota specifically). | | Obviously you can't generalize everyone, but the people i met in | the MW were way nicer than the people i knew from the east coast | or west coast. I've been invited into many strangers homes as if | i was a close friend. Very few people seem to be captured by a | blind viral drive towards success the way you find in places like | NYC or SF, and instead people are just happy and enjoy their | position in life. (not to say people don't do good work, or don't | succeed at goals). If you dream of a nice middle class life, with | a quaint house and a nice family, and all that jazz, it seems | like a great place to be, and a culture that wants you to have | it... if you're straight and white and "normal". | | The weather sure does suck though. Hot summers, cold snowy | winters. Worse than new england, with less money to keep roads | and infra in shape. That said, i find myself every fall on the | west coast missing "real fall" where the leaves change and the | brisk wind cools you down outside as you can see your breath. | Throwing on a soft flannel and grabbing something warm to drink | while you stand outside and enjoy nature... | coldpie wrote: | > The weather sure does suck though. | | Ahhhhh you gotta embrace it and find the good in it or you'll | just resent everything :) St Paulite here. This morning it was | 9 degrees F on the way to the bus. The snow has a beautiful, | sparkling layer of ice from the rainy drizzle we got the other | day. Most of the plants were covered in a thin coating of ice, | the streetlights reflecting through them looked like inverted | icicles. It's snowing now, we'll probably get 2" this | afternoon, lovely to crunch through. | jcims wrote: | I live in Ohio and it's probably my faulty memory at work but | it seems that our winters used to be much more like what you | describe. I can distinctly recall hunting deer in -20F | weather in the 80s and my cheap plastic orange vest just | disintegrating as I walk. Lots of weekends and evenings spent | sledding or trying to optimize packing vs throwing in a good | snowball fight (afterall it's not good until someone bleeds, | right?) | | Aside from a nice blast of snow last year, it seems that our | winters are now largely an indiscriminate blah of slush and | rain and I'm tired. Need to relocate north or south and i | can't figure out which. | light_hue_1 wrote: | > if you're straight and white and "normal". | | Yup. That sums my experiences up nicely, although I would add | "if you're straight and white and 'normal' and don't care about | how people treat anyone else". | dragonwriter wrote: | > Obviously you can't generalize everyone, but the people i met | in the MW were way nicer than the people i knew from the east | coast or west coast. | | > it seems like a great place to be, and a culture that wants | you to have it... if you're straight and white and "normal". | | That suggests that you are using a definition of "nice" that | many people (especially those who are not, but even many who | are, unless the last term includes bigotry within its ambit) | straight and white and "normal" would rather strongly disagree | with. | vineyardmike wrote: | > the people i met in the MW were way nicer than the people i | knew from the east coast or west coast. | | The people i met were way more _polite_ than people | elsewhere. Thats what nice meant. | | > it seems like a great place to be... | | It seems to be a place that is rewarding to be in and will | make you happy (if you fit in and want their cultural norms). | Normal in this context = Want a quaint middle class hetero | nuclear white-picket-fence american-dream style life and | you're also polite and friendly just like those around you. | Many people want that, especially "all american" people who | grew up (white, middleclass, american) with that experience | themselves (and american propoganda). No bigotry implied... | thats not everyones experience, but its probably the "normal" | for a native Midwesterner (from my time there). | wincy wrote: | The "if you're straight and white and normal" sure doesn't | track with my experience. I'm a software engineer in Overland | Park, Kansas, and live in a middle class neighborhood in the | suburbs. Cows a mile one way and IKEA the other way. It's the | "American Dream" town, and it's MORE diverse than when I lived | in the city. My neighbors are Indian and Jordanian, Kenyan, | Chinese, Vietnamese, Pakistani, African American, Caucasian | (some from US, some from other countries). I bought this house | from a Nepalese couple based on their names. | packetlost wrote: | This is absolutely not the experience if you live in | Wisconsin. Well over 80% of people here are white. | CountDrewku wrote: | Because it's full of German immigrants. Do you want them to | hate themselves because they're a specific skin color? | | Would you say something similar about people's skin color | if you went to Nigeria? | | What's your point with a comment like this? Yes America is | majority white and those percentages are higher in some | areas. It's not a problem. | sohdas wrote: | He's just saying that the Midwest (eg. Wisconsin) is not | generally as diverse as Overland Park, which is true. You | should examine what made you react so strongly to this. | CountDrewku wrote: | You should probably examine the comment at the top of the | chain he/she responded to and think it over a little | harder. | xmprt wrote: | The point is that people make generalizations that they | don't realize based on their personal experience. For | example, I can make tons of generalization about how nice | India is for tourists as an Indian (I currently live in | America but travel back for family and as a tourist | occasionally) but someone who's white might not share | that same experience because they might be hounded by | scammers and people looking to make a quick buck off of | an unsuspecting foreigner. | | Similarly, cities and people in the midwest might be | great if you're straight, white, and "normal" but that | might not be true for everyone. Will people be as | welcoming if they see you as an outsider? Maybe. I try to | keep an open mind but I also can't be 100% sure. | carlivar wrote: | Same stat likely applies to Kansas. The closest comparison | to Overland Park would be some suburb of Milwaukee. I | guarantee Milwaukee area diversity is higher than Wisconsin | as a whole. | managerclass wrote: | If by diversity you mean segregated: | | https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2019/ | 01/... | rangersanger wrote: | like almost every other state in America, Wisconsin is | majority white unless you're in the cities. Milwaukee is | majority minority. | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans | codemac wrote: | ... Overland Park is 82% White[0]. It's one of the wealthiest | white suburbs of Kansas City, and has been for decades. | | I appreciate your experience is different than the | statistics, but it's quite literally less diverse than the US | as a whole, and less than Minneapolis and many other | midwestern cities. | | [0]: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/overlandparkcitykansas | [deleted] | drewcoo wrote: | From a quick look at what DDG feeds me, Overland Park is a | nice Kansas City suburb. With a bunch of higher education | institutions. And a botanical garden! This place seems like a | midwestern outlier. | | The town I grew up in (unnamed Iowa) now offers to pay remote | workers to move there. The town has declined since I remember | it in the 1980s as a fortune 500 factory town with a | population of about 15,000. It has never had a botanical | garden. It was always safest to be white, straight, and | normie in whatever way possible if you have to be there. | [deleted] | CountDrewku wrote: | >if you're straight and white and "normal" | | Why did you feel it was necessary to put that in your comment? | Are you upset that a specific skin color of people decided to | migrate to the Midwest? | | Did you witness lgbtq or people of certain skin colors being | run out of town or receiving some sort of prejudice? Or are you | being bigoted and just saying that due to their specific skin | color and life choices they want people with different | lifestyles to not enjoy prosperity? | bserge wrote: | dragonwriter wrote: | > Did you witness lgbtq or people of certain skin colors | being run out of town or receiving some sort of prejudice? | | It's been a pretty consistent report of people I know who are | visibly not "straight and white and 'normal'" and whose prior | US experience is limited to relatively cosmopolitan coastal | areas who visit the Midwest (urban areas other otherwise) | that not only does the WASP-normativity seem higher, but even | minorities engage in more and more aggressive self- | segregation from visibly different minorities, to the point | of active avoidance on the street. | | Oddly, people who are or pass as "straight and white and | 'normal'" are much less likely to report this, and often seem | surprised to hear it from others. | CountDrewku wrote: | Oh, well then I guess those visiting coastal people must be | bigots. Not surprising since they have a specific negative | name for an entire area of the country. | | This is really some astounding hypocrisy. Reporting that a | massive part of the country is 'insert prejudiced comment' | due to their race, skin color, religion based on prejudiced | anecdotal comments... | slowmovintarget wrote: | I miss the Minneapolis that was. I lived and worked there for a | time after getting married. The city is not what it was ten years | ago, though. | | Most of the restaurants I frequented (and they were exceptionally | good) are gone. Crime has dramatically increased, including all | time highs for murders in St. Paul, and Minneapolis three murders | away from its all time high. | | I lived in an apartment in Minneapolis. I could walk just a block | or two into downtown. It was a wonderful, vibrant city. A ten | minute walk to Lake Calhoun, groceries down the street, my | barber, and the ice cream shop right next to each other. It was | my favorite of all the places I've lived. I just wish it was | still as I recall it. Perhaps my perspective is too full from | consuming news and has too little from current residents. | coldpie wrote: | > Perhaps my perspective is too full from consuming news and | has too little from current residents. | | Yeah, you're pretty deep into "old man yells at clouds" | territory here :) Turn off the news and come visit. The Twin | Cities are still great. Maybe you can come discover some new | favorite restaurants, we've got loads of great ones. | paulcole wrote: | > I just wish it was still as I recall it. | | Somehow the places we lived when we were 20-30 years old always | seem worse when we look at them 10 years later. | kerbs wrote: | I also have the opposite view of Minneapolis 10-15 years ago. | | so much urban renewal has happened since then. It honestly | became pretty run down in the core suburban sprawl/white | flight years of the 90s. The last decade has been pretty | amazing with renovations, neighborhood developments, and | almost all of the surface parking lots turned into something | far better. | kerbs wrote: | I live downtown (North Loop) with my wife and two daughters | under 5. | | The crime narrative is strange, and the restaurant scene has | never been better. | | The downtown _core_ isn't quite the same, but that's of course | because nobody goes to the office anymore - but they're still | building everywhere (including another 40+ tower on Nicollet) | colechristensen wrote: | I in uptown and got an email a few weeks ago explaining the | bullet holes in the building, and still get emails from the U | about armed robberies regularly and much more often than a | decade before. There is no question crime rates are up | significantly, police are too busy to respond to many calls, | and even caught crime isn't being investigated, charged, or | convicted anywhere near properly. | | The restaurant scene did take a significant covid dip and | several of my favorite places are gone but there is still | quite a lot and a few new things. | ardme wrote: | Yeah uptown got hit really hard. Maybe the other commenters | don't live in uptown but I do and the crime issues are | pretty wild since the riots. My neighbor was carjacked at | gunpoint by a group of teenagers in our parking lot. You | have to be very aware of your surroundings now. I'd say | about half of the businesses have closed permanently around | me. | | The Walgreens on 27th and Hennepin gets robbed at least | once a month. One time they just shot up drive through | windows and the employees left while they robbed the place. | Luckily the glass is bulletproof on them. The cops don't | seem to really respond things. | | One of the weirdest things was this summer where they were | doing construction on 28th and Hennepin and there was a cop | posted up there during the day. I asked him why and he said | "because the construction workers were being assaulted and | their tools were being stolen". And this is in a nice area | right by Lake of the Isles. | | Deny it if you want, it's just like a political mess now | because the DA will no longer bring a lot of prosecutions | to trial it seems like. | [deleted] | xcskier56 wrote: | Having lived in Minneapolis proper for the last 10 years and | growing up nearby, the restaurant scene is VASTLY better than | it was before. We used to have stuffy, overpriced, mediocre | restaurants. Now we've gotten vibrant, new and creative places | that aren't just serving the same old fair dressed up. Sure | some of the old classics have closed, but there's always been a | new, better place taking their spot. Case in point, Lucia's => | Sooki & Mimi. Lucias's was good, but Sooki & Mimi is phenomenal | DrSteveBrule wrote: | > I could walk just a block or two into downtown. It was a | wonderful, vibrant city. A ten minute walk to Lake Calhoun | | Based on these data points, I estimate that you walk at least | 15.6 mph. | acqbu wrote: | lol! | DIVx0 wrote: | Minneapolis is pretty small compared to "big" cities in other | states but I do agree that this is an unlikely walk but a | totally achievable bike ride. | | Also the lake's native Dakota name has been restored and | locals call it Bde Maka Ska | TameAntelope wrote: | I don't understand why people quote the murder rates as any | kind of indication of the city itself. Murders are _far and | away_ being committed by people you have no association with to | people you have no association with. | | Are you in a gang? No? You're fine. It's horrible and awful, | but the way you've quoted it here is as if _your_ personal | likelihood of being murdered has meaningfully changed, when it | hasn 't (or maybe you rep tre tre crips or something, I don't | know your life). | jcims wrote: | It's been close to 20 years since I was in Minnesota. I was | there doing contract work for Wells Fargo and really enjoyed | the city. I can't remember what it was called but I still tell | people about the human habitrail on the second floor that you | (well, presumably mostly 'we' unaccustomed visitors) can use to | get around town when it's too damn cold outside. | idreyn wrote: | The skyways! They're fun and iconic, but in some ways they're | the worst thing about downtown Minneapolis. Since so many | office workers use them to get around, the streets feel dead | and car-dominated even by the standards of American cities. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-12-28 23:00 UTC)