[HN Gopher] Down the Rabbit Hole: The world of estranged parents...
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Down the Rabbit Hole: The world of estranged parents' forums (2015)
Author : jasonhansel
Score : 115 points
Date : 2021-12-28 19:45 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.issendai.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.issendai.com)
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| I believe there was a reddit thread one time about some family in
| New York that cut ties from their parents or grandparents, and
| due to some age old Kinship law, the elders could take children
| to court for not allowing them to see grandchildren or something
| of the like.
|
| It's fascinating in the US that we've gotten to the point that
| families can break contact entirely and be successful but due to
| completely out of date institutions baked in to law, we're stuck
| with arbitrary reasons to engage with hostile people. As a judge,
| why would you ever grant rights of a grandparent willing to take
| their children to court to see their grand children short of an
| abuse related situation?
| HWR_14 wrote:
| This doesn't sound like some misinterpreted archaic law. It
| sounds like the law prevented exactly what the drafters
| intended - parents cutting grandparents off from children.
| Whether that's a stupid law is another question.
| [deleted]
| teraflop wrote:
| The article touches on this:
|
| > Grandparents' rights groups are one step forward and one
| step back. One step forward, because the majority of the
| people who are interested in this cause are the people
| grandparents' rights were meant to help: grandparents who
| lost touch with their grandchildren through the parents'
| divorce, incarceration, or some other rupture in their
| children's families. However, it also brings out the people
| who think they have more rights over their grandchildren than
| the children's own parents do, the people who want to force a
| family reconciliation through the courts, the people who want
| to take custody of their grandchildren to punish their
| children.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > . If a person's own writing shows that they lie, rewrite
| reality, or otherwise engage in cognitive distortions, they're
| abusive. Period. Instant kill shot.
|
| If you haven't dealt with someone with NPD or BPD, I'd like to
| clarify this a bit. I'm sure that any of the prolific commenters
| on HN could be found to have contradicted themselves and/or
| distorted reality occasionally. This is about patterns of
| behavior, and it's usually coupled with minimizing any specific
| examples of the behavior while never engaging with the fact that
| the problem is the pattern of behavior, not any one example.
|
| I've dealt with someone with eBPD who was unable to get through a
| 45 minute therapy session without contradicting themselves. They
| also habitually selectively report facts to distort reality[1].
| If the estranged kid(s) really were the ones with personality
| disorders, I suspect the emotional responses to being cut out
| would be something along the lines of "Sad, relieved, guilty
| about feeling relieved."
|
| 1: Here's an example with details changed: "Joe drank too much
| last night and we got in a car crash." Reality, Joe was in the
| passenger seat, and the driver hit a deer that jumped out in
| front of them. On confrontation: "I never said Joe drove drunk!"
| michaelbuckbee wrote:
| Also, from context, I believe that's really focused on
| observable patterns in the forum. If someone is lying and
| contradicting themselves so plainly on the forum (with
| relatively low stakes) it's quite likely that they do so
| elsewhere.
| fragbait65 wrote:
| Is that actually a good example of what you mean? There is no
| contradiction? The first statement does not say that Joe drove
| drunk?
| tptacek wrote:
| Obviously, it strongly implies that Joe drove drunk. That's
| the point of the hypothetical.
| citizenkeen wrote:
| Playing on people's inferences (which is different from
| implying) is a common tactic of the abusive.
| tshaddox wrote:
| That's also just what "lying" means. If you make a claim
| with the intention of deceiving someone that claim is a
| lie. It's not like English is a formal language where you
| can say "ah but my statement technically passed the 'Truth
| compiler' so it's not technically a lie."
| mthoms wrote:
| Similarly, I like to say something along the lines of
| "lies by omission are still lies".
| bena wrote:
| This one is more "distorted reality" rather than a
| contradiction.
|
| They present information in a way to get you to assume things
| that aren't true to either paint their desired victim in a
| bad light or them in a good light. And when presented with
| clarifying data, will try to act like its your fault that you
| misinterpreted what they said. Even though it's what they
| wanted.
|
| One tell is someone who seems to collect bad relationships.
| Who has a never-ending stream of stories of people just being
| awful to them. And their only admission of having done
| anything wrong is just some sort of vague platitude. It's
| always of the variety "I'm not perfect either" never "I
| shouldn't have cheated".
| kempbellt wrote:
| > 1: Here's an example with details changed: "Joe drank too
| much last night and we got in a car crash." Reality, Joe was in
| the passenger seat, and the driver hit a deer that jumped out
| in front of them. On confrontation: "I never said Joe drove
| drunk!"
|
| Continued:
|
| "It was Joe's birthday he got a bit tipsy. He was feeling a bit
| full of himself and hit on my girlfriend all night. Afterwards
| I _still_ decide to drive him home so he didn 't die. I mean,
| what kind of friend would let his friend drive himself home
| after drinking _on his birthday_? And even then he continued to
| be a complete ass. I was so enraged that I didn 't even see the
| deer jump out in front of my car"
|
| Hence: "Joe drank too much last night and we got in a car
| crash" could very well be a valid interpretation of the evening
| if you consider all possible context. Especially if you are
| trying not to throw Joe under the bus as a sleazy friend to
| your therapist.
|
| But also, it _could_ definitely be the drivers fault in this
| hypothetical scenario. Hard to say.
|
| The problem here is that humans have a tendency to believe they
| have all the information they need to pass correct judgment
| (source: life experience, and if I'm wrong about this, that
| means I'm probably right, right?). Usually, they don't. In my
| experience, everyone embroiders details to make themselves look
| innocent, and often without even noticing. It's very difficult
| to parse truth from people's tendency to simplify and
| exaggerate based on personal bias.
|
| If there is a conflict there usually _is_ a good reason - but
| sometimes that "good reason" is based on a misinterpretation
| that others won't understand.
|
| I can't place fault on Joe _or_ the driver in this situation
| because: I wasn 't there and I don't know all of the context.
| tptacek wrote:
| The comment you're responding to starts by saying these
| aren't the actual details; they're trying to illustrate a
| pattern of abusive arguments that provide misleading
| narratives, and, when contradicted by evidence, proceed to
| lawyer out from under the deception. That's obviously a real
| phenomenon; the example is just meant as an illustration of
| it. I'm not sure what the point of litigating it is.
| kempbellt wrote:
| It's completely hypothetical, so the narrative is whatever
| we make it to be.
|
| My comment is in response to the therapists POV in this
| context. OP used the term: "On confrontation".
|
| Why is there confrontation at all? Why not simply ask for
| elaboration while withholding judgement? Maybe the person
| you are providing therapy to is still worked up from the
| events and unable to explain things clearly.
|
| That is the point of litigating.
| tptacek wrote:
| If that comment had just used the abstract pattern: "(1)
| Abuser provides an overtly misleading narrative; (2)
| Abuser is confronted with evidence that contradicts the
| thrust of their narrative; (3) Abuser retreats to
| litigating the clear meaning of their original
| narrative", would you still see a point in trying to
| provide counterfactuals? The comment is simply trying to
| illustrate a pattern common to unproductive and/or
| abusive arguments; they not really offering you a law
| school hypo to work through.
| kempbellt wrote:
| 1) Why is a therapist qualifying a narrative as
| misleading, or not? Is this productive therapy?
|
| 2) Why would a therapist confront a patient like this? Is
| the point of good therapy to say, "Ahah! You contradicted
| yourself. My diagnosis that you are eBPD is correct!"
|
| 3) Seems like the patient being qualified as an abuser
| and confronted by a person who's role is to help them, in
| this manner, would naturally retreat to a defensive
| posture.
|
| So no, I don't see the point in trying to provide
| counterfactuals. Doesn't feel like productive therapy.
|
| A good therapist is there to listen, without judgement.
|
| Just my 2 cents tho. Obviously, feel free to disagree.
| bena wrote:
| The point is that you're arguing the metaphor rather than
| the point of the metaphor.
|
| Your additions are bullshit. They add nothing but to
| somehow point at the poster and go "ah-ha". Because
| you're really just making the same point as the poster:
| Important details that change the story can be left out.
|
| It doesn't matter which party in the hypothetical
| scenario is actually correct, only that one of them is
| not because they left out significant details.
| [deleted]
| Thin_icE wrote:
| Thank you for posting this. It was really helpful, and it's very
| comforting to know I'm not crazy, or imagining things in my head.
| gkoberger wrote:
| My favorite article from this site is The Missing Missing
| Reasons:
|
| http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-miss...
| golemotron wrote:
| It's very concerning how quickly people throw around medical
| terms like NPD or BPD. The blog seems anonymous so there is no
| indication of whether the person who wrote it is qualified to
| diagnose. My guess is no because there are many blanket
| statements and few qualifying statements. People without training
| are likely to read about a few characteristics and, well, you see
| what you look for.
| noodles_nomore wrote:
| I upvoted this comment, since it's important to retain a
| skeptical perspective, anywhere. Reading psychology is very
| liberating as it can be an immense help in understanding your
| personal experiences, but it can also become a vessel for
| projecting your preconceptions on those around you. Labeling
| others with mental disorders is also a way to dehumanize them
| and certainly not a healthy way to engage with the world. In
| the end, psychological labels are just shortcuts that help
| pattern the world in the absence of real understanding.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| I'm confused about where you see a diagnosis as being relevant
| to the discussion.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| "Narcissism" is generally thrown around as an insult and it
| has a confused history in the psychology literature going
| back to Freud using it in two different ways that were both
| confused and undeveloped.
|
| "Narcissism" essentially means "self-love" and it is
| something that is part of everyone's psyche. Having something
| wrong with your narcissism is like having something wrong
| with your heart and there are many things that can go wrong
| with your heart such as heart disease, heart failure, bad
| valves, arrhythmia, heart attack, etc. In the middle of _Neon
| Genesis Evangelion_ , Asuka Langley Soryu makes a passionate
| defense of self-love ("you are all you've got!")
|
| There is "narcissistic personality disorder" as well as the
| (widespread) narcissistic disturbance that Kohut talks about
| which itself is more or less complicated by borderline and
| other disturbances at more archaic levels.
|
| It is all front of mind for me right now because I was
| talking to my therapist and volunteered that I was concerned
| about an incident of "Dark Triad" behavior on my part and she
| said at one point I was "talking like a Narcissist" (I
| agreed) yet when I took a
|
| https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/SD3/
|
| I found I was midrange on Machiavellianism, below average on
| "narcissism" and close to the bottom of the range on
| psychopathy. (Hmmm... I felt remorse about what I did so I
| guess I'm not psychopathic.)
|
| I read this book cover-to-cover the next week
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1171657.Humanizing_the_N.
| ..
|
| and marked it up with a highlighter and drew my version of
| Kohut's horizontal and vertical split on my whiteboard. I
| oscillate between grandiosity and worthlessness sometimes and
| definitely can point to merger, twinship, and mirror
| transferences. (It was twinship transferences on two people
| that got out of hand...)
|
| I'd point to at least some of this phenomenology being
| widespread and almost normal... I think almost anytime
| somebody blows up for what seems like no good reason there is
| a grandiosity -> worthlessness transition going on.
| golemotron wrote:
| "The narcissists I see online don't write about their
| relationships with their children and close friends; they
| hardly write about their own partners, except as props in the
| narcissist's ongoing drama."
|
| The writer seems very confident of their assessment of
| various people online.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| So? Swap "narcissists" with "people who exhibit some
| specific shared traits between one another that are also
| often described as part of the diagnostic criteria of a
| narcissist" and you get the same effect.
|
| It's a shortcut, not a diagnosis. Layperson English tends
| to be that way, and getting caught up on the different
| definitions between medicine and "common" speak is likely a
| waste of time.
| dwringer wrote:
| Informal diagnoses can be useful as hypotheses to present to
| qualified practitioners, and may even help in cases like
| those at the linked site to give the affected parties peace
| of mind and a feeling of insight, but I believe there is
| something unscientific about labeling people with medical
| disorders without the qualifications to do so. IMO such
| diagnoses should always at least be taken with a grain of
| salt. How relevant that is to this particular discussion is
| certainly open to interpretation.
| fmajid wrote:
| I'm sure this is true in many, or even most cases, but there are
| also cases where the grandparents do have the grandchild's best
| interest at heart. Obviously those grandparents would not be on
| some forum where they get to expound on their sense of
| entitlement. Here in the UK, in the last month alone we've had
| the horrific cases of Arthur Labinjo-Hughes, 6 or Star Hobson,
| 1.5, both viciously murdered by their parent's partner with the
| parent's full complicity. In both cases the grandparents alerted
| social workers but were brushed off, with tragic results.
| tptacek wrote:
| This series of articles spends a lot of time and energy
| differentiating ordinary estranged parents and grandparents
| from those who spend time campaigning on forums for estranged
| parents, and expands on a bunch of concerning reasons why
| parents can become estranged through no fault of their own; for
| instance, children can fall into drug addictions. It goes on to
| make the point that these forums seem to be actively alienating
| to those kinds of parents, who presumably seek support from
| forums dedicated to parents estranged due to addiction.
|
| The thru-line for the whole series is that participation in
| these forums is a powerful clue, all on its own, that abusive
| behavior is involved in the estrangement.
| fmajid wrote:
| I understand, hence my caveat that the grandparents were not
| on those forums. What I worry about is when the undeniable
| existence of abusive grandparents is assumed by CPS or social
| workers as a universal and cause valid warnings to be
| overlooked.
| tptacek wrote:
| Another thing the articles repeatedly observe is the
| proclivity of parents on these forums to abuse these shared
| concerns about valid warnings in order to weaponize CPS and
| social workers against their estranged children. Examples
| include instances where the parents admit publicly that
| they lied to CPS in attempts to punish and control their
| own children.
| mrxd wrote:
| This mostly comes down to parents who have more traditional
| cultural values than their children. It's like watching two
| sports teams argue about who broke the rules, but they can't
| agree because fundamentally one team is playing soccer and the
| other is playing baseball.
| throwawayHN378 wrote:
| I didn't read the article. However, personal anecdote, my
| girlfriend was a victim of parental alienation. She had a child
| at 18 and everyone in her life conspired against her to separate
| her from her child. Her mom tried to separate us. She would pull
| me aside and tell me her daughter ( my girlfriend ) was a
| narcissist, etc. I knew she wasn't. She is a loving, caring
| person who cares deeply for her son. She was undiagnosed high
| functioning autistic and no one took any time trying to figure
| out how to interact with her.
|
| If it wasn't for the fact that my salary affords us the ability
| to adequately represent ourselves in court she would have lost
| all rights to her son.
| saul_goodman wrote:
| /r/justnomil
| mjfl wrote:
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Ok. My parents never abused me. Just so you could hear the
| other side.
|
| I've heard too many horrifying stories of parents abusing their
| children, typically many decades later. Fuck those parents. Cut
| them off. You will only be happier for it.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Well people don't usually spend hours on forums talking about
| how great childhood was.
| tpmx wrote:
| Especially on Reddit. Seems like there's an epidemic of self-
| diagnosed "raised by narcissists" kids/young adults there.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| Or maybe the ones that didn't have problems don't feel the
| need to share.
|
| Man bites dog vs dog bites man.
|
| Your perception of frequency is not an unbiased estimator of
| actual frequency.
| clusterfish wrote:
| The "epidemic" is in the real world, you're only noticing it
| now because now it's in your face on the internet. Must be
| shocking to see that, if like most people you had normal
| parents, but those mad asshole parents are sadly very real.
| bisby wrote:
| The raised by narcissists sub has 750k subscribers. Reddit
| has ~500m monthly active users. That's 0.15% of reddit. If
| 0.1% of people actually are raised by narcissists, that is an
| accurate number.... 750k people in a single place is a LOT,
| but it might still be representative. so yeas, it seems like
| there is an "epidemic" but it's more about "if all the people
| raised by narcissists were to be grouped in a single place it
| would be a lot of people". That's just a testament to how the
| internet brings groups of people together.
|
| If you had a great childhood with great parents. Good for
| you. Not everyone has. and I don't think that 0.1% of reddit
| is some sort of epidemic.
| leejoramo wrote:
| Issendai's writing about how to get out of "sick systems"
| profoundly changed my life. If you are trapped in a job or
| relationship and feel too overwhelmed to get out read these:
|
| http://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html
|
| http://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems-whittling-yo...
|
| http://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems-qualities-th...
| caslon wrote:
| This series of articles is... really something I've been needing
| to hear for a while, despite rationally having already accepted
| the things inside of it. Thanks for posting it here, Jason.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| resoluteteeth wrote:
| Title should say 2015
| 77pt77 wrote:
| No because it's irrelevant here.
| ilamont wrote:
| For people who have narcissistic/BPD family members/SOs, Issendai
| provided a link to the the following forum:
|
| https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php
| cleandreams wrote:
| I have half siblings like this, who tried to take the family
| house from me after my father (their stepfather) died. That is,
| they tried to take my share of it; the will split everything
| equally. We split the family things up into thirds and they were
| caught trying to steal from my share. Crazy making it was. So
| much gas lighting. We are now estranged. TBH even seeing their
| picture upsets me.
| [deleted]
| crookshanked wrote:
| This is definitely something I could see myself being concerned
| about happening. Any advice RE: lawyers/how to handle the
| siblings trying to bypass the will? I've been told a living
| trust is something to consider. Thoughts?
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Get yourself named as executor of your parents' estate. That
| is spelled out in a will. If they don't have will, get one
| written with you as executor.
|
| The executor is the one responsible for distributing assets
| (including real estate and anything of value) from the
| estate. You want that role.
| mindslight wrote:
| Ideally you want a Durable Power of Attorney as well, which
| gives you power when they're living. Both for being able to
| take care of them, and as a trump card in case someone else
| does try to influence them to sign a new Will you can
| question their mental competence without ending up in a
| world of hurt regarding conservatorship etc.
|
| From my understanding a Living Trust is really just a way
| of bypassing the Will and probate process, and actually
| allows for less oversight. This might make things easier,
| or it might make it harder to get justice.
|
| There are also irrevocable trusts that allow for making
| designations that can't be taken back, which perhaps may
| fit your situation. But since they're irrevocable they need
| to be drafted more carefully.
|
| Of course if they're not looking to you to fulfill such a
| role or discuss such things, then perhaps it's not your
| scene no matter how much you think it is. Whatever the case
| is, you're better off having these conversations sooner
| rather than too late.
|
| IME a parent's death is when all those unresolved childhood
| disagreements come back to roost.
| bena wrote:
| Something similar happened when my grandfather died. My
| father was the executor. The family thought the estate was
| much larger than it was. There were lawyers, lawsuits,
| attempts at extortion, at least one attempt at entrapping my
| father into striking one of them, and probably some other
| bullshit I was not aware of.
|
| My grandparents had pretty much everything divided and handed
| out before they died. Two of them were living on property/in
| houses that were given to them by my grandparents. After
| funeral expenses, hospital bills, and everything else, there
| really wasn't much left.
|
| If you want some real advice: Don't count on it. Set yourself
| up in a way that you aren't waiting for your parents to die.
| Have absolutely no stake in the outcome. And if you are the
| executor, be as open and transparent as possible. If
| anything, it'll make the lawsuits quicker.
| Pixeleen wrote:
| I suspect that we are at an inflection point in history, and the
| United States has the factors for perfect storm. Traditional
| gender values meeting the pill, and Baby Boomers (the "me"
| generation) grappling for a last bit of control, while more
| progressive generations come of age. I also think that Boomers'
| drinking culture is relevant, as alcoholism and narcissism are
| correlated.
|
| Being trans and the family scapegoat, I personally got out town
| as soon as I could, but that was not the end of the story. My
| narcissistic, abusive family conjured up a special blend of
| threats, saccharine and passive-aggressive letters, stalking
| involving the media, and misgendering/deadnaming/outing me in the
| will when they did croak.
| jollybean wrote:
| This recent populist boomer bigotry is too much.
|
| The boomers represent the biggest social change of any
| generation in centuries. The pill rock and roll women in the
| workplace divorce MLK JFK Malcom X etc.
|
| Everything past them is an echo and Im not even sure it's on
| the right side of history.
|
| Churchill drank 12 ounces a day that was normal before boomers.
| They are not heavy drinkers historically speaking.
|
| And they did not have access to material goods like we do.
|
| The ME generation is every generation from here on in so long
| as consumerism expands.
| Pixeleen wrote:
| Point taken... I am limited to my own context which was not
| positive. I do feel like the younger generations are more
| willing to be self-critical and change. Boomers seem to have
| a lot of anger about the new.
| testfoobar wrote:
| This is a fascinating post to get some perspective from the
| narcissist side.
|
| In my experience, beyond the suffering and abuse, it is nearly
| impossible to describe to someone else the experience of extended
| engagement with someone with narcissistic personality disorder or
| someone with borderline personality disorder. Friends and family
| often have no frame of reference in dealing with NPD or BPD. It
| makes finding help and treatment much harder. Often you have to
| discover on your own that you have been the target of NPD or BPD
| abuse. It takes time.
| Neil44 wrote:
| Yep. You try and explain the arguments or situations, but in
| peoples minds they apply the model of a normal person that they
| have in their head to the narc because they look at the narc
| and see a normal person, and they think well you just explain
| this to them or just say that to them. They don't understand
| that their mental models of how someone will behave and what
| they will feel and say and do are not applicable to the
| situation, and that trying to apply them will give you the
| wrong answer. like playing a familiar game with the controls
| reversed.
| vwoolf wrote:
| I'm sure there are children who unjustifiably cut off their
| parents, and the reverse. I can say that I read _Adult Children
| of Emotionally Immature Parents_ and it rocked my world:
| https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/adult-children-of-emotional...
| by thoroughly describing my upbringing. I've not cut off
| contact but I have containerized it and set strict boundary
| conditions, if you will, and my parents seem not to understand
| their own behavior, at all.
| quercusa wrote:
| Ordering that one right away; it's taken me decades* to
| figure out how my loving (AFAICT) parents set me up for
| problems in personal relationships.
|
| * I may be slow in this regard.
| honkycat wrote:
| I am really glad I read this. DARVO "Deny, Attack, and Reverse
| Victim and Offender" is something I have observed over and over
| again.
|
| I've had to deal with abuse in my life in many forms, I suspect
| many of us have. More times than not, it was in the workplace
| dealing with a co-worker or boss.
|
| Around a year ago on twitter, people were freaking out about
| "Bean Dad", a father who supposedly was abusing his daughter by
| not opening a can of beans for her. An almost certainly fake
| story missing a ton of context the father later gave[0]. I had a
| tweet in reply: "If you think 'Bean Dad' is bad, wait until you
| hear about 'Sports Dad' and "Grades Mom'."
|
| I had a CTO I really looked up to and got along with well, only
| to later discover he was sexually harassing a woman at work, and
| upon further reflection, the relationship was not as great as I
| had thought as a young worker. I had an abusive business partner
| once as well. I have an aunt who has anger issues was and HIGHLY
| abusive in her language and actions, but thankfully after
| standing up to her and having many conversations, she has greatly
| improved her behavior. I was sexually abused by a family member
| as a child. My parents were mildly abusive to me, but they aren't
| bad people, they just didn't understand how to deal with my
| untreated ADHD and psychological issues.
|
| I share this information not because I want you to break out a
| violin for me, I am sincerely an extremely happy and productive
| person. I have spent a long time processing and working through
| these experiences, and I hope that maybe someone will read what I
| have discovered about myself and be able to learn from my
| experiences.
|
| All of this in my life has culminated in, and caused by, a
| "broken asshole radar." I am very tolerant of people, and I try
| to help them when I see them struggling. I'm used to being
| abused, so like the frog in the pot, I don't detect the rising
| temperature around me. This is my personality, so I have to
| develop alternative strategies for protecting myself.
|
| I've had multiple "friendships" that I didn't realize were
| problematic until I set boundaries and they absolutely melted
| down. I have had two stalkers in my life. At this point, if
| someone sets off my "crazy alert" I cut them off no contact,
| because I struggle to notice when a relationship is becoming bad,
| and I struggle to notice when a person is mentally unstable.
|
| The thing is: People SMELL this in me. Or maybe I invite it upon
| myself through some tactical error in my behavior. Or maybe I am
| instinctively shielding others from the abuse. I don't know.
|
| I know this about myself! And yet I still get myself into these
| situations!!
|
| I am dealing with this at work currently. I am on a cross-
| functional team with a co-worker who is going through some tough
| times. I have heard they have had problems before, and have been
| put on a PIP for behavioral reasons. I find myself doing this[1]
| with them, correcting their behavior when they are rude to
| someone, or myself. And it is always: "I didn't find that rude, I
| don't see a problem..." The other day, I asked a vendor a simple
| question, and to have the answer for the question at a demo
| scheduled a few weeks out. This lead to co-worker blowing up at
| me in the private team chat, basically for making a decision
| without them ( to ask a question in an email ). It has also been
| a constant struggle to get them to respect my
| experience/expertise, and I often feel treated like a Jr.
| engineer.
|
| All of the rudeness, and the meanness, and here is why my brain
| is broken: I still feel bad for this person, and want to help
| them! I think: "Hmm, is there a way I can communicate with them
| to correct their bad behavior, but also not hurt their feelings?"
| Or: "How can I write their review to help them improve?" Why am I
| shielding this person? I don't have any idea. All it does is
| cause me misery.
|
| And I guess that is why I am glad I read this article: It
| reminded me that I cannot help them. My attempts at protecting
| them from themselves isn't going to help them, it is only going
| to hurt me, and make me a further target of their abuse and open
| me up to DARVO.
|
| 0: If you are worried: His daughter had already had lunch, and
| was not starving or distressed at any point. It was just funny
| seeing her try and figure out the can opener.
|
| 1: "You can also train them by addressing each problem in the
| moment. As soon as they do something wrong, you tell them what
| they did and give them immediate consequences, like ending the
| visit. Each time you do it they'll tantrum and spray abuse in all
| directions ... It's like training a toddler, but without any hope
| that the toddler will grow out of it. "
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| A problem I see with parents in general and not just personality
| disorder types, which is reinforced by the state and scientists,
| is this subconscious bias that kids are the property of their
| parents.
|
| It needs to stop.
|
| Kids are like AI they learn from the environment around them and
| prison populations are in part an example of the failed
| parenting, state and scientific direction, but as usual State
| officials and scientists never get held to account when they
| should only the parent.
|
| Add in different belief systems and you have a recipe for
| disaster which constantly unfurls to one degree or another day in
| day out. ad nauseum.
|
| And all the while the planet still keeps being more and more over
| populated. Its like fiddling at the seams whilst Rome burns.
| Lammy wrote:
| I was with you until that last part. Sorry I'm not really
| willing to believe John D. Rockefeller III and co. could have
| my best interest in mind when talking about how we should
| maintain humanity under half a billion in perpetual balance
| with nature. Sounds more like a world where they will own
| everything and there will never be enough of "the rest of us"
| to effectively demand equality
| https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED050960.pdf#page=10
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| Are you aware of
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink ? Clockwork
| Orange, Rat Utopia as other examples?
|
| I dont care to a certain extent because it will end with war
| OR sickness and poverty, if people are not forced to live
| within their means and make the best of what they are given.
|
| I'd like to see euthanisia become legal so we dont have to be
| experimented on by scientists who have the audacity to think
| its acceptable, just like I dont agree with Govt who have the
| audacity to think they can control our lives through
| legislation and all that.
|
| In the 70's there was a Eugenicist movement in the West which
| lost out to the current thinking, but here in the UK the NHS
| was performing medical operations like tying the tubes of
| woman after 1/2/3 kids to stop their from having more.
| Obviously there is the female contraceptive pill which has
| helped reduce number sizes. This is eye watering! https://en.
| wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_c... https://
| en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_c...
|
| You could say the Eugenicist movement has become more
| persuasive today. We have also had to have our health
| impaired to make us more docile and to reduce our breeding
| abilities whilst also increasing the risk of cancer, to the
| point that something like 50% of the UK population will get
| cancer in their lifetime here in the UK. TF the NHS is free!
| I bet Josef Mengele is kicking himself for being too obvious!
|
| Inflation is also stalking the planet right now, its getting
| more expensive to live, now whilst various central banks can
| print monkey tokens to keep the natives happy, inventing an
| excuse or two to print more like Quantative Easing helps keep
| people in the game and Govt's can invent bureaucracy to keep
| people busier.
|
| I'm also aware that in the West its been cheaper to offshore
| some jobs to parts of the world with lower labour costs. That
| last point may or may not also entail poorer working
| conditions like we see with Foxconn and Apple.
|
| Now its also clear that we have a form of global communism
| imposed on us by global business giants under the guise of
| global capitalism only its not a govt but a board doing the
| communism bit limiting our choices of what we can spend money
| on. What govt would want to distance themselves from domains
| previously under their control like telecoms spying?
|
| But in all of this, there is a new entrant, artificial
| intelligence, chipping away at the middle class jobs and some
| working class manual labour jobs which has opened up a new
| angle of attack that previously hadnt existed in human
| history.
|
| Now its doing three things, its improving quality like we see
| with robots building German cars and its also forcing Govt to
| get creative with their bureaucracy which is why the security
| services "hack" via these global entities with court orders.
| Muddying the waters to keep us busy. Bread and Circuses been
| going on since Roman times and all that.
|
| Its also discovering new attack vectors for all sorts of
| areas of life, but its also undermining the pillars of
| society authority namely the State and religion.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| > is this subconscious bias that kids are the property of their
| parents.
|
| Nothing exemplifies this better than the cliche
|
| > I gave you life. I can take it away.
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| My point exactly, and not many kids have been in that
| position, but I wonder how much of that is the States doing
| and Scientists doing, considering the hubris of science.
|
| Take law, it can skew science, example driving whilst under
| the influence of drink or drugs. How many people keep quiet
| about driving whilst under the influence and thus the state,
| the police, are legally able to exploit this falsehood to
| justify their existence and skew the stats?
|
| Take Covid, you dont know if you have covid until you take a
| test and then depending on what test you take, depends on the
| false positives. The WHO or UN advised PCR tests were
| multiplied less often last Xmas like from 30x down to 20x or
| something like that. The Lateral Flow test is something like
| 50% accurate!!!
|
| Here in the UK they had the "Pingdemic" where if you have the
| COVID app on your smart phone, if you said you had symptoms
| the app assumed you had COVID and told you to isolate. Now
| this was a stealth form of economic harm because if you didnt
| have covid but you tricked the COVID app into telling you to
| isolate and then went near other people for like 3mins for
| the bluetooth pinging to detect others, like in a busy
| shopping centre you "gave" other people COVID and the law
| abiding would have self isolated.
|
| Now how many businesses were affected by the
| Govt's/Google's/Apple's incompetence? Is that not a law suit
| in the making? :-)
|
| How many people lost money due to having to self isolate?
|
| And dont get me started on Religion. :-)
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