[HN Gopher] Tesla recalls nearly half a million Model 3 and Mode... ___________________________________________________________________ Tesla recalls nearly half a million Model 3 and Model S cars Author : turtlegrids Score : 101 points Date : 2021-12-30 21:05 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.theverge.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com) | cassianoleal wrote: | Previous discussion: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29739029 | etaioinshrdlu wrote: | It doesn't seem like the rear view camera problem is that much of | a safety issue, thoughts? | | The front trunk flying open while driving seems highly | undesirable though. | antattack wrote: | Tesla's have limited rear-view visibility due to aerodynamic | shape. Not a big problem, but once you get used to backing out | while looking at HD screen, lack of it is quite a hindrance. | bfung wrote: | Yep - that's the first thing I noticed/get used to w/my Tesla | Y: rear view mirror looking out back windshield is basically | useless and camera is basically necessary while backing up. | twblalock wrote: | The Model Y would be pretty much undrivable without a | camera. The Model 3 is also pretty bad about rear | visibility, but the lack of visibility out the back of the | Model Y is shocking. | chrisseaton wrote: | Mandatory safety feature not working not a safety issue? How do | you work that one out? | dmonitor wrote: | federal regulation requires backup cameras on new vehicles, so | that breaking likely to break would be probably be considered a | decent sized problem | m-ee wrote: | Rear view cameras are a required safety feature in the US now. | As SUVs proliferated and pillars got thicker for crash safety | cases of parents running over their toddlers increased. | walrus01 wrote: | as predicted in the early 1990s | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA | coryrc wrote: | karatinversion wrote: | Those generally aren't the places where the SUVs are being | reversed. | ralph84 wrote: | Those spaces exist but in general people with kids don't | want to live there. | xiphias2 wrote: | You're right, but it can still be fixed after the problem | happens | kube-system wrote: | The rearview camera is a big issue because it is a requirement | under Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. | ghaff wrote: | Yes. It's a safety issue. But there are also at least tens of | millions of cars on the road without backup cameras. | alamortsubite wrote: | Lack of rear visibility without a camera is a much more of | an issue on newer cars; older cars, which make up the bulk | of those "tens of millions", don't have such a serious | problem. | kube-system wrote: | I'm not (directly) saying it's a safety issue, I'm saying | it's a compliance issue. It is clear that it needs fixed | because it's clear that this function is required by law. | ghaff wrote: | Of course it needs to be fixed. | actually_a_dog wrote: | I had a hood come open on a car I was driving once. It was | definitely some scary shit. Luckily, I was on a long, straight | road, and was able to decelerate in a controlled way and pull | off the side of the road. | walrus01 wrote: | see also: Tesla ranks almost dead last on Consumer Reports | reliability list | | https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-... | | https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-reco... | | I hope this doesn't come across as excessively smug but I think | my life, level of stress and personal finances are measurably | improved by owning something that is closer to a $9000 Toyota | Corolla and spending money on regular, basic maintenance for it. | noah_buddy wrote: | Presuming you can afford a Tesla, the virtues of thriftiness | and limiting the scope of your consumption will get you much | further than "FSD". | tragictrash wrote: | LanceJones wrote: | They also ranks first in customer satisfaction survey -- 4 | years running: | | https://thedriven.io/2021/11/15/tesla-dominate-top-10-most-s... | woodruffw wrote: | Consumers tend to rate higher satisfactions with "luxury" | goods (i.e., goods at premium prices, regardless of material | quality or value) than they do with non-luxury goods. It | occurs to me that that bias affects Tesla's reception as | well. | bumby wrote: | I vaguely remember (or perhaps misremember) Mercedes doing | a study that consumers respond less favorably to their cars | when they are pierced below some threshold compared to the | same cars when prices higher. There's definitely some | consumer cognitive bias effects around pricing | ALittleLight wrote: | Presumably the survey includes other luxury cars. | tragictrash wrote: | From that article: "Consumer Reports explained that despite | "historic reliability concerns", Tesla had an intensely loyal | following and took the top spot." | | Do you happen to be one of those fiercly loyal followers? | carlhjerpe wrote: | kube-system wrote: | This pattern is more of the norm than not for expensive high- | tech cars. Rich people like nice stuff and are willing to pay | maintenance and repair bills. | walrus01 wrote: | and then later in their life they become impossible to fix | at a reasonable price. | | somebody might sell you a mostly okay running older BMW 7 | series for $4500, fully loaded with all the options but | take a look at the parts and labor cost to fix something on | it.... you might as well throw away the whole car. | ghaff wrote: | While I've driven them (on a track) and appreciate the | attraction of the German sports luxury brands, what I've | always heard is that if you want to keep them past their | warranty period you need a trusted independent foreign | car mechanic--and it can still get pricey. Just has never | been a sufficient priority for me. | LanceJones wrote: | Since you're making broad, sweeping generalizations, I can | play. There are 7 people in my social circle who are Tesla | owners but not fiercely loyal. They are not rich. And none | of them have experienced more than minor issues in their | ownership. | matsemann wrote: | If you own a Tesla you're almost by definition rich. If | everyone in your social circle is driving expensive/new | cars, you're all rich. Not to go all "check your | privileges", but seriously.. | bumby wrote: | The real comparison is whether they would've experienced | complaints with _any_ similar class of new(ish) car. | What's left out of TSLA reliability talk is that they are | often compared to the average car, which is much older, | has less safety features etc. That's why consumer reports | compares similar class and year | kube-system wrote: | They are "not rich" in only the most privileged of | perspectives. Even if we limit that perspective to the | US, which is a pretty wealthy country by most measures: | the average vehicle on the road in the US was built | before Tesla even opened their first assembly plant. The | used car market in the US is 2.8x the size of the new car | market. Median income buyers struggle to afford new cars | of any fuel type or brand. | ericmay wrote: | I see this all the time but then if you want to buy a new Tesla | you have to wait a year. And that _is_ due to demand. | | The consumer reports reliability thing just seems like a meme | at this point that doesn't ring true for most people either in | importance or reality. I can't quite put my finger on why this | meme is wrong but my intuition says it is. | thr0wawayf00 wrote: | > I see this all the time but then if you want to buy a new | Tesla you have to wait a year. And that is due to demand. | | High demand doesn't mean the product is quality. Fyre | festival sold thousands of tickets, even though it was | fundamentally fraudulent. Video games are another perfect | example: fans pre-order AAA titles that studios fail to | deliver over and over and over again. Demand just means that | people like the idea of it, not that the product actually | delivers on its stated promises. | walrus01 wrote: | > Video games are another perfect example: fans pre-order | AAA titles that studios fail to deliver over and over and | over again | | I literally pre-ordered Anthem, and then apparently having | not learned my lesson, did the same with Cyberpunk 2077. | Enough said... | oogali wrote: | There's nothing to put a finger on and no meme rebuttal | needed, because both statements can be true. | | Tesla can score poorly in 3rd party consumer testing and that | might be a valuable data point to those who care or value | their testing. | | And a number of people who really want a Tesla can also be | people who have never heard of Consumer Reports nor value its | testing. | | At current domestic capacity levels, you need 500K people in | category number two ahead of your order to produce the | observed lead times. | bumby wrote: | > _The consumer reports reliability thing just seems like a | meme at this point that doesn't ring true for most people | either in importance or reality._ | | It's based on, well...consumer reports of reliability issues | so it seems like it's quite literally based on (perceived) | reality. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Have bought several Teslas over the last 3 years (S->X->Y). | Quality improves each time I've bought one. Lots to complain | about, still wouldn't buy from another manufacturer. | HWR_14 wrote: | If there is a lot to complain about, why wouldn't you want | to buy something else? | toomuchtodo wrote: | Because the alternatives are worse. Bolt EV LG Chem | battery recall, Taycan is woefully inadequate for the | price point, Ford dealers are adding $10k-$30k "market | adjustments" to Mach Es and $5k-$10k for F150 Lightning | reservations (which is _obnoxious_ ), Teslas have the | Supercharger network, frequent over the air updates, a | robust battery warranty, strong resale market, etc. | | My Model S frunk recall appointment with a mobile tech | coming to the home to perform took less than three | minutes in app to schedule. | FireBeyond wrote: | Tesla has bumped the price of their vehicles _at least_ | three times this year, in some cases well over $10K in | total, so it's not all that much different to "market | adjustments". | | Not sure how a $5K refundable deposit is "obnoxious". | Sure, it's less convenient than the Tesla deposit, but it | wasn't like that money wasn't earmarked anyway. (And if | you're in the market for a $50-75K vehicle and the | difference between a couple of hundred and couple of | thousand down is a deal breaker for you, you could argue | affordability). | toomuchtodo wrote: | The manufacturer bumping the price due to demand and | supply chain issues is one thing, dealers gouging is | entirely different. Musk was entirely right that dealers | would be an impediment to EV adoption. | | https://jalopnik.com/dealers-say-salespeople-still-arent- | rea... | | https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15346108/some- | dealerships... | | https://www.fastcompany.com/90294305/car-companies-put- | in-a-... | | Edit: @FireBeyond I don't believe I'll be able to help | with the confusion | FireBeyond wrote: | And yet, somehow, all the other manufacturers are not | bumping the price at wholesale. | | I'm confused. | jonathankoren wrote: | That's funny. I'd buy a Taycan but never a Model S. | [deleted] | ghaff wrote: | And some of us buy cars and keep them for over 10 years. | Which isn't rare behavior. | JohnJamesRambo wrote: | I haven't had a single problem with my Tesla so this seems | odd to me. I know that is a sample size of one but I would | expect some issue. | donarb wrote: | Instead of Consumer Reports, how about JD Power? Every car | company that brags about ratings quotes their JD Power rating | first and foremost. Tesla is 30 out of 33 on JD Power. | 77pt77 wrote: | How much will the stock rise as a consequence of this? | onphonenow wrote: | The rear camera MAY fail issue seems pretty benign. | | When it fails go get it fixed? | | Or is that no longer a permitted approach. | | These recalls used to be for things major. Now we are getting a | recall over what would be a warranty claim? Can they not just | extend warranty coverage in this year to something like 10 years? | deviantbit wrote: | In the small community I live, we have at least one Tesla catch | fire a year. There were three last year. I'm not sure what | quality control issues they're having, but it seems they would | get the fire issue fixed. Before you down vote this, which I see | the Tesla fanboys are doing, Google Tesla fire. I never remember | a gas vehicle igniting spontaneously as electric cars do. | bagels wrote: | Battery car fires are much more likely to make it in to the | news than your every day combustion engine vehicle fire which | are far more numerous. | slg wrote: | Just a reminder that cars are recalled all the time and the only | reason you are seeing this article is because it is Tesla. Any | other manufacturer and this would be a non-story especially on | HN. | | Did Ford recalling 185k vehicles a couple days ago make the front | page of HN? | | How about Toyota recalling 200k vehicles also a couple days | ago?[2] | | Maybe Honda recalling 725k vehicles a month ago?[3] | | EDIT: Lots of people are taking this a defending of Tesla. That | isn't my intention here. I am providing context to this issue. | Someone who isn't familiar with the frequency that cars are | voluntarily recalled is going to conclude that this is a bigger | deal than if viewed in the context of the auto industry as a | whole. | | [1] - | https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2021/1... | | [2] - https://www.justicepays.com/news/toyota-recalls- | over-200000-... | | [3] - https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38425033/honda- | passport-p... | serf wrote: | just a reminder that product recalls (especially vehicles) are | discussed all the time on HN [0], and Tesla isn't somehow | special for being mentioned here. | | [0]: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=recall | slg wrote: | None of the recalls I pointed to were discussed here. Here is | one example of searching for another manufacturer.[1] Three | articles including a pair of duplicates. The other article is | 12 years old. They seemingly combined to receive 2 upvotes | and 0 comments. Meanwhile this article already has over 50 | upvotes in an hour with 25+ comments. We can't pretend that | this community treats all of these issues the same regardless | of manufacturer. | | [1] - https://hn.algolia.com/?q=recall+honda | carlhjerpe wrote: | There's more to the story. Ford, Toyota and Honda makes | significantly more cars and models than Tesla. | slg wrote: | I am not trying to start a fight about the quality of Tesla's | vehicles compared to other manufacturers. Maybe you are right | and Teslas are recalled at a higher frequency. I don't know | enough about it to have an opinion either way. | | I am simply pointing out that a solitary voluntary recall, | which is what this article is about, is barely newsworthy and | is only being posted/upvoted because it is Tesla. | carlhjerpe wrote: | And it is upvoted through the roof because it is Tesla. The | one car manufacturer valued as high as "all other" (very | many) car manufacturers together. Tesla is different, why | treat them like everyone else? | slg wrote: | >And it is upvoted through the roof because it is Tesla. | | That was my point so we agree. | carlhjerpe wrote: | Well yes, but you seem to think it's unfair treatment | whereas I think It's perfectly reasonable to treat them | differently if they are different(Which they are). So we | disagree as well. | slg wrote: | I never said it was unfair. People are projecting a lot | onto my comments here. | tyrfing wrote: | This is unnecessarily defensive. A quick search shows that | other large recalls have been heavily upvoted on HN: | Volkswagen, Hyundai, Fiat, Peloton, Amazon, and many others. | | Just a reminder that news about the 6th-largest company in the | world, owned by the richest man in the world, isn't a personal | attack on you. | slg wrote: | Not all recalls have the same level of newsworthiness. | | Both the Volkswagen and Hyundai recalls were related to | internal corruption and potential criminal activity making | them more noteworthy. That is a failure in the regulatory | system while Tesla's recall is the system working as | intended. | | The Fiat recall was related to hacking so it will naturally | get more interest on HN. | | I don't have data on this, but voluntary recalls seem to be | much more common for cars than other retail products. | bumby wrote: | What makes this more interesting to me is that is came about | during a probe into the driver assist technology. This | particular recall is of less interest than that probe. | | https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-... | noah_buddy wrote: | I disagree that those headlines are even nearly so newsworthy! | This Tesla recall is only 20k less than all that they sold in | 2020. Ford recalling 200k cars is only 5% of what they sold in | that same year. | | This is a relatively large proportion of all Tesla's on the | road. | mxschumacher wrote: | it's interesting how Tesla is definitely not a car company | when somebody mentions their absurd valuation but just like | all the other car companies when something goes bad. Cannot | have it both ways. | | I have read about Toyota's impressive production systems and | then hear people claiming that Tesla's manufacturing | capability is 10x better than anybody else's. | | At some point we'll have to decide whether looking like a | duck, swimming like a duck, and quacking like a duck makes it | a duck. | atwebb wrote: | That was my thinking, a major supplier / manufacturer | recalling a year of (and 1/4 of all ever made) products is at | least interesting. To OP's point though, it likely reached | the front page so fast b/c it has Tesla in the name. | slg wrote: | You can check this link[1] which I posted in another reply. | There is a story there about Honda recalling 1.4m vehicles. | That is right around a full year of sales in the US and | exceeds annual sales for the last couple years[2]. That story | got one upvote and zero comments when it was posted here last | year. | | Once again, I am not trying to excuse Tesla for quality | issues or say they make as good or a better quality car than | any other manufacturer. I am simply pointing out that the | name Tesla drives attention and clicks compared to their | competitors and that is why you are seeing this story. | | [1] - https://hn.algolia.com/?q=recall+honda | | [2] - https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/honda-us-sales-figures/ | Retric wrote: | Ford simply sells a much wider variety of cars which results | in more frequent recalls. The odds of any one recall | impacting a ford owner is less, but the odds of any recall | impacting them are about the same. | | For example in the recent 16 million for airbags vehicle | recall across multiple car manufactures only 3 ford models | where impacted. https://oharelawfirm.com/blog/massive-car- | recall-reveals-pot... | standardUser wrote: | One key difference is that for Tesla, 500k cars is a _huge_ | amount of the total cars it 's sold in the last 5 years. More | than a third. Has any automaker ever had a recall on such a | huge proportion of their cars? | vardump wrote: | Tesla has sold about 1.4M cars in just last two years. 500k | last year and 910k (likely more) this year. | | Next year Tesla is going to sell probably at least 1.5M cars. | Given they have two new factories, and Tesla Shanghai factory | is expanding again, 2M wouldn't surprise me. | bestcoder69 wrote: | I don't get who you're calling out here. The upvoters? The | press? Other car companies for not being as good at generating | hype? Who messed up (other than Tesla)? | | If you're just raising awareness that HN finds Tesla articles | interesting... that's fine I guess. | jeffbee wrote: | If we have to hear about it every time Tesla is the best- | selling brand for a single month in Estonia or Chile, but we | never get to talk about all the other months and places some | other brand is the top seller, it follows that we also have to | talk about Tesla recalls, even though we never talk about Honda | recalls. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-12-30 23:00 UTC)