[HN Gopher] How to Quit Like a Boss ___________________________________________________________________ How to Quit Like a Boss Author : stuhlmueller Score : 37 points Date : 2022-01-06 21:16 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (jmsbrdy.com) (TXT) w3m dump (jmsbrdy.com) | feisar wrote: | Good work to those who wrote it. If you have a better contract in | hand then yes you should probably quit. With that being said | however if you leave on bad terms and your next job asks to | contact the manager from your previous job the would probably say | that you left on bad terms and might ruin your reputation. | alfalfasprout wrote: | I'm glad that things worked out for the author but this is just | generally not great advice for most people. | | As nice as your manager is, even if they have your best interests | in mind, they ultimately answer to someone else. And that means | that even if they don't want to, they can f*k you over with | minimal notice anyways. There's a power imbalance there. | | Certainly don't be a dick about leaving and burn a ton of | bridges... but the standard 2 weeks with professional and minimal | responses is the way to go. | diek00 wrote: | This title needs an edit, like many of those noted, "How to Quit | Like a Boss when you work for Rational People". Many places have | toxic irrational people who would fire you in an instant and then | have security escort you out of the office like a criminal. | sys_64738 wrote: | When you let your manager know you're unhappy then they can also | quickly move to hire a replacement and fire you. You don't own a | company anything beyond the last paycheck you received. Two weeks | notice is the norm and, hey, it's just business. Don't take it | personally if an employee leaves. | jamesbrady wrote: | Your first sentence is true. Perhaps it's overly reductive of | me, but if that's what your boss would do you're in that red | "you should leave anyway" box, in my opinion. | | A few other commenters have pointed out good reasons (e.g. | visas) where you need to keep your cards closer to your chest, | but the vast majority of people reading Hacker News _can_ find | a role where it 's not so transactional. Where you're valued as | a person and teammate, and where you can have a grown-up | conversation about your career plans. | | Those open conversations are harder to have if you truly | believe your second sentence, however! | CapitalistCartr wrote: | This is excellent advice for those working in a rational | environment. For those working in an ego-driven environment, not | so much. Plan your exit strategy as you would from an abusive | spouse. Don't assume good faith on anyone else's part. | lmilcin wrote: | I worked in many places including ego-driven, political and/or | irrational. | | Leaving gracefully has never backfired on me. Actually, the | opposite happened. Leaving gracefully has left me with some | good friends and has led me to opportunities from people I | worked with in the past and have became successful in the | meantime. | | Additionally, at almost every company I happen to work with | somebody that I have known before. Answer yourself, do you | really want your ungraceful exit to become a problem at your | new company now or in the future? What does it cost you to | leave gracefully? | chadcmulligan wrote: | Indeed, I was thinking where are these rational managers where | you can discuss things openly. It seems the world of management | is full of petty narcissistic control freaks. | jamesbrady wrote: | I'm sorry that's been your experience! | | These managers definitely do exist - I have had them, I have | seen them, and I have _tried_ to be one. | | Perhaps I should have included "rational conversation is | possible" as a decision point in the flowchart, with a | negative answer leading to "you should leave anyway"! | mds wrote: | In a rational environment if you're leaving "for cause", it | shouldn't come as a shock to your employer when you quit, in | the same way a bad performance review or firing shouldn't come | as a shock to the employee. There should be feedback in both | directions, if they're not meeting your career goals or you're | not meeting their performance goals. | | But as a rule I wouldn't tell my boss I'm actively interviewing | until I have an offer in hand. Just like, and for a lot of the | same reasons, the company as a rule isn't going to inform | under-performing employees that they're actively looking to | hire someone to replace them before firing them. | rsstack wrote: | People here have been burnt by bad managers and it's honestly | sad. If you have a personal relationship with your manager beyond | emails and "how was your weekend", there's a good chance they | will appreciate your longer notice (not 10 months!) and you'll | keep them on your side for the rest of your career. I gave a | 2-months notice once, and my manager's manager even helped me | find my next role at a different company (which I ended up taking | instead of an offer from Facebook). | | I can't remember which company it was, but some startup CEO | posted on Hacker News a few months ago that they have a proper | procedure for "long notices" where they help employees, even if | they decide to stay at the end of it. That should be the goal in | my opinion. | | P.S.: Yes, it can be more tricky in large corporations where the | manager isn't independent and their manager is vindictive. | jamesbrady wrote: | Exactly, this sounds like such a grown-up way to wind down a | working relationship! I'm sure you'll stay in touch with that | person and perhaps even refer people in their direction in the | future. | givemeethekeys wrote: | "Don't hate the player, hate the game". | | The game in California is "at will employment". I don't know | about other industries, but most tech firms will lay you off with | 0 days of notice if they no longer need your services, for | example, to save money. | | On the other hand, loyalty to people may or may not be worthwhile | - this very much depends on the people and your experience may be | drastically different from everyone else'. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | Eh... kind of? Like, I don't disagree that there are reasonable | points here, but: | | > Quitting should never be a surprise for your boss | | > What's the worst that can happen? | | Not a total surprise, but in many environments even hinting that | you're looking to leave will... greatly increase the urgency of | your search. They might not terminate you outright (or they may), | but it's gonna make the rest of your time there a lot less fun. | The worst that can happen is that you admit you're thinking about | leaving and get escorted out by security. Obviously it depends | exactly what we mean by not being a surprise; problems should | generally be communicated... perhaps it would be better to say | "Your boss should be able to say why you left"? | | > Match your notice period to the handover period | | I personally think the handover part is a symptom; at least for | the kind of work I do, if there was truly that much to hand over | something already failed. Process goes in wiki, tasks go in Jira, | code goes in version control... sure, there will always be a few | things that only you really understood and some in-flight work | that's not fully written down in a ticket, but IMO if it takes | you even 2 full weeks to exit gracefully then either you messed | up or the company messed up (ex. there was no other person to | hand off _to_ and they couldn 't hire that fast). | lelandfe wrote: | > in many environments even hinting that you're looking to | leave will... greatly increase the urgency of your search | | Just to provide a single anecdote of this, my friend worked as | a recruiter at a well known company. If higher ups got proof | that you had applied to another job, you would be terminated | day of and whisked out of the office by security. | | The stories from him and his coworkers of the subterfuge | involved in job applications were impressive. | jamesbrady wrote: | Hmm, I hear you on the first point... Perhaps I'm blinkered to | roles in tech (to which this post was aimed, but not explicitly | enough)? | | In my experience at such companies, people certainly aren't | walked if they express dissatisfaction in their role - but | you're right that this doesn't necessarily transfer onto roles | which are less competitive. I will think about how to tighten | that piece up: thanks for the feedback. | | On the second point, I can only congratulate you if you manage | to keep everything so organised and compartmentalised! It's | something I've aspired to but always fallen short of. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | Right, unless the job/manager are totally insane they should | never be surprised that you are to some degree dissatisfied. | But in many jobs, it is to the employee's benefit to operate | in such a way that the manager _is_ surprised that they 're | _actually_ leaving. | ska wrote: | > "Your boss should be able to say why you left"? | | Not just say why, but this has been an ongoing discussion | between you with attempts to resolve it (assuming everything is | working as it should). | jamesbrady wrote: | I like this phrasing and will steal it henceforth. | ragnot wrote: | Honestly, it's really simple: two weeks and that's it. | | Been there 2 years and haven't gotten a raise/promotion? 2 weeks. | | Been there 10 years and are bored/didn't get what you want? 2 | weeks. | | Don't fall over yourself helping the company. Chances are they | are going to forget you in 3 months anyway. | sasawpg wrote: | In case of your death, a replacement job posting will be up | before your obituary. 10 months is crazy. | seaman1921 wrote: | Well of course an opening will be posted immediately if one | dies - whats the point of waiting in that scenario ? | | That doesn't justify being a jerk and quitting without making | an effort to ensure that the transition is smooth for your | colleagues. | paxys wrote: | I don't get this advice. At least in tech it is understood that | _everyone_ has their eye open for the next big opportunity. If | one comes along, I 'm not going to hesitate to take it. It | doesn't have to mean that there's a problem in my current role | that I need to address with my manager. Sometimes you simply know | that it is time to leave and try something new. If my current | company is "surprised" by my decision and unprepared for my | absence then that's on them. | jamesbrady wrote: | > it is understood that everyone has their eye open for the | next big opportunity | | This hasn't been my approach, nor has it been for many people | I've worked with - or perhaps we're tripping over language? | | Let's say that someone is super motivated by a high salary. | They would be helping their manager (and, in most situations, | themselves) if they were open about that. Up to and including | conversations like "I hear that Company X is paying 20% more | for a comparable role - here's some data to show I'm | underpaid". | | It's those kinds of conversations which would mean that your | manager _won 't_ be surprised if in 6 months you leave for a | better-paying role. Or, perhaps you get a nice pay rise. Or, if | you _can 't_ have such conversations, see the red "you should | leave anyway" box in the post! | marbletimes wrote: | But if you know that the current company cannot pay like the | other company you are interviewing for, or that in this new | company the future salary outlook is much better, why bother | asking if they can pay you more? | | In the work life, one needs to be strategic; it appears to me | that most people on here who are commenting somewhat | negatively about people giving 2-week notice and nothing else | have never been laid off or fired or somewhat "mistreated" by | a company. | | The way to be an excellent employee is to always deliver work | to the best of one's capabilities and give 2-week notice | before leaving. In one company I worked for, somebody gave a | 2-week notice and was let go immediately. It is not unheard | of, and most legacy companies could not care less about a | possible PR problem. Those legacy companies live in a galaxy | that is far away from the one inhabited by start-ups and | similar good PR-dependent companies, they are populated | mostly by old dinosaurs that recruit heavily among the not- | too-brilliant technical people. | Den-vr wrote: | I especially agree on the approach regarding pay. Contrast | that with "I have an offer from Company X that is 20% more, | can you match it?" In the former case, you can be seen as | expressing a sort of loyalty, in the latter case you live | with a little extra workplace hostility even if your current | employer agreed to match the offer. In that sense, when it's | time to go it's best to go. | ubermonkey wrote: | That's an insanely pollyanna take on quitting. What's the worst | that could happen? You could get fired for looking for another | job. This happens. Most people I know have worked for someone | toxic, or worked for a toxic organization. | | If you work for nice people and things just don't align, yeah, | sure, this approach may be fine, but it's by no means universal. | simplestats wrote: | I think the assumption is getting fired instantly from a toxic | organization is probably a good thing. The problem is that a | high likelihood of a better outcome (as opposed to ending up | living in your car), still isn't a guarantee. | | The most risk-averse strategy should still use some of the | advice posted here, but concerns like minimizing other people's | problems and your own guilt are not worth the dangers. | jamesbrady wrote: | > the assumption is getting fired instantly from a toxic | organization is probably a good thing | | That's correct - although I definitely take on board some of | the other commenters' feedback about things like visas tied | to roles. I'm going to add some clarification to make it | clear this really relates to employees in good standing in | tech companies (obviously a tiny minority of the populace and | one of the few groups who have the guarantee you mention). | cosmotic wrote: | Heeding this advice would be much more generous than employers | typically are, especially in an at-will employment environment. | In my experience, employers give zero notice and provide zero | assistance helping an employee find a replacement. | jamesbrady wrote: | I think it depends on the situation. I definitely agree that | performance-based firings would tend to be extremely brutal | compared to the approach I advocate for here (largely due to | the various risks posed by aggrieved employees). | | Perhaps I should add that this advice best (only?) applies if | you're leaving a company in a sort of "natural parting of ways" | kind of situation? Thanks for the feedback. | cosmotic wrote: | No only performance-based firings, but throw-someone-else- | under-the-bus firings and bad-management firings. Also cost- | cutting layoffs or outsourcing-layoffs. | | Regardless of the cause, an employer almost-always will | require a separation agreement be signed as a requisite | action for any amount of severance pay. This is entirely to | the benefit of the employer. | oblak wrote: | I wasn't there but I was told a person communicated his message | by taking a literal shit in the CEO (ex military, to give you | some perspective) office. | ram_rar wrote: | > Quitting should never be a surprise for your boss | | I get the spirit of this. But someone whos in tech on a visa, | this is absolutely the worse advice. The fear or retaliation is | real, especially in bigger firms where your manager has a lot of | say. The moment higher ups have the slightest inkling that you're | looking for other jobs, you'll soon get pushed out. | hodgesrm wrote: | I know of a case where the manager actually called the INS | after the employee left. Protect yourself and your family | first. (I'm a manager myself.) | jamesbrady wrote: | Oh, I hadn't considered role-tied visas... that's a good point. | Let me add a couple of "excepts" in there. "Never" is too | absolute. | NikolaNovak wrote: | I think the very first sentiment is the most universal one: | | Your quitting should not be a surprise to your manager. | | Just like year-end review (for those companies that have it) | should not be a surprise to the employee - feedback should be | continuous. Similarly, if your (rational, to another posters | point) manager's reaction is one of complete shock and surprise, | it may be a sign you two weren't communicating sufficiently and | planned/discussed your | goals/expectations/challenges/direction/etc. | marbletimes wrote: | The assumption here is that the employee leaving the company | was due to some problems that could not be solved after careful | discussion with the manager, skip-level etc. But leaving a | company can also happen because another company offers you 50% | more money or a different role, or you just feel like changing. | | For any employee, including managers, directors and up--there | is only one thing to remember: when the company intends to let | you go, they don't ask for your opinion. Two-week notice is | professional and more than enough. | jamesbrady wrote: | Yes! Good point: the manager needs to create the forum for | those conversations to happen but the report still needs to | take it on themselves to have that sometimes-awkward | conversation. | kevingadd wrote: | I always give 2 weeks notice before quitting and make the | transition as easy as possible, doing handoff meetings and | educating whoever's taking over. | | In exchange, I usually get shafted by the employer. In one case | they tried to claw back a signing bonus (despite the employment | agreement etc not giving them the right to do it - nice) and in | another case the abusive studio head walked over and told me to | take my shit and leave immediately despite the fact that I was a | producer in charge of an entire team and hadn't done any handoff | (shocking no one, the latter studio ended up shipping their | product 4+ years behind schedule) | | So I guess my takeaway is that it's still valuable to be nice if | you care about the impact on your teammates, but I don't think | your boss deserves it. Especially now when many companies have a | policy of not providing references beyond 'yes i can confirm that | so-and-so worked here' - the concept of 'burning your bridges' by | not being sufficiently deferential to your awful boss doesn't | exist. | billyhoffman wrote: | Reasonable (though fairly hackneyed) advice. Until I get to this: | | > I let my boss know I was leaving in February, so my commitment | to see things through to the end of the year was effectively a | 10-month notice period. | | This, ironically, was the first sentence in a section entitled | "Avoid giving too much notice" | | If you can't handoff your work in less than 2 weeks, either you | as an employee have failed to properly document and communicate | status of what you are doing, or the company culture has failed | because it created an environment where someone could not pick up | what you were doing and continue it. Why? Replace "quitting" with | "suddenly died." Companies that can't recover from stuff like | this are poorly run and with bad frontline managers. | | Short of being a founder and CEO of a startup who has to leave, | and needs to gently hand it over so the company doesn't die, | there is no valid reason for 10 months of notice. Hell, that is | probably not a good reason. | jamesbrady wrote: | OP here, yeah I mention the 10 months thing as an example of | what _not_ to do - the actual handover of tasks I did in maybe | 1-2 months, and that was at a leisurely pace TBH. The first ~9 | months we were in a slightly weird limbo unfortunately - that | 's what I was flagging up as an anti-pattern there. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-01-06 23:01 UTC)