[HN Gopher] Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, h...
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Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?
Dear HN, I'm working my first job out of college and I really
enjoy it. I get to do fun computer vision stuff, write Rust, great
pay, great benefits, short commute, etc. And my manager and her
boss are both super smart. However I'm a bit frustrated. I thought
I was doing well - I'm working hard on the project I was assigned
to, and it's coming along nicely. The deadline was pushed back once
(which that seems to be very common at this company), and the new
deadline is still in the future. Two weeks ago, my manager's boss
schedules a meeting with me and my manager. My manager is busy
putting out a fire so it's just me and the boss, and the boss made
a some of criticisms of me. I've been thinking about them and I
can't shake the feeling that some of them were kind of unfair. (To
be clear, I absolutely did make some mistakes on this project that
contributed to it taking longer than it had to.) First, he
basically tells me this project should have been finished a long
time ago and he can't believe it's taken this long etc. I had no
idea that he felt this way before the meeting - I've mostly just
been working to get it done before the revised deadline my manager
gave me. He looks at the code and criticizes design decisions,
some of which were made largely on my manager's explicit
suggestions. (When I bring this up, he says I probably just
misinterpreted an offhand comment of hers as a hard requirement.)
Part of the reason it had taken so long is because I put a
substantial amount of work into a part of the project that's no
longer necessary due to changing requirements, which I don't think
I could have forseen. I don't think the boss appreciates that and
just sees that the amount of usable output is low for the amount of
time I'd been working. He did also make some criticisms that I
thought were fair. For instance he said I should have looked at
other projects to see how they accomplished what I'm trying to do.
That definitely would have been a good idea. After our meeting, my
manager and my boss had a meeting with just the two of them to
discuss the status of our project. I have no clue what happened in
that meeting and I haven't heard anything about it from either of
them since. As of today the project is pretty much done (save for
some procedural details). I'm happy, but I can't stop thinking
about that meeting. I really did work hard, and produced code which
I feel is really above average for a fresh college graduate/junior
dev, and I feel like it's completely unappreciated and my boss just
thinks I took a really long time to produce really shit code. I'm
not thinking of quitting over this or anything, but it seriously
bums me out. I don't know if I have a future at this company if the
boss thinks I'm not a good dev, and I really like it here. A month
or so ago they added someone else to my project and I trained him
on my code, and he's super smart and capable, and I'm thinking that
now they probably feel that they could fire me if they wanted and
not lose much. But the saddest part is that I really admire my
manager and my boss, and I wanted to make them happy to have hired
me, and now I feel like they probably aren't. I guess I can try to
learn from my mistakes and get over it, but at the very least it
feels like an inauspicious start. How should I proceed?
Author : dazeandconfuse
Score : 108 points
Date : 2022-01-06 21:51 UTC (1 hours ago)
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| Start updating your resume and applying for other jobs. If you
| don't like it there then you will always have a gap between your
| performance and being happy.
| mushufasa wrote:
| > Part of the reason it had taken so long is because I put a
| substantial amount of work into a part of the project that's no
| longer necessary due to changing requirements, which I don't
| think I could have forseen.
|
| One of the things that I've experienced with new grad junior devs
| is that there's an adjustment needed to change from academic
| working to business working. In academia, usually the professor
| gives an assignment and you have to go off and figure it out,
| without bothering the professor, no matter what. In business,
| it's much better to 'bother the professor' regularly and check in
| affirmatively on whether the assignment has changed, or to tell
| the manager about challenges that arise to re-plan together. As a
| junior employee, you're not going to know the full business
| context of what makes sense, and checking in can save weeks of
| time that would otherwise be spent off on your own.
|
| Not sure if that's the case here, but certainly something you
| could consider going forwards to prevent similar situations.
| i_like_waiting wrote:
| Definitely, I remember as well, that everything they hated me
| for in school was super beneficial in business. Copying other
| work? Amazing. Telling boss that I don't have time to do the
| new task? Trendemous. Solving issue without using latest tech
| that I just learnt? Incredible. Compaining that some parts of
| task are harder than anticipated? Brilliant.
|
| The only hard part is to bring fake absences into this mindset,
| so I can be praised for them.
| abfan1127 wrote:
| this is really good advice. To go further, sometimes the
| homework changes, sometimes its not really necessary and can be
| delayed or ignored. Sometimes other unassigned work is more
| important. All of these are important discussions to have with
| co-workers, mentors, and managers.
| dazeandconfuse wrote:
| Thanks. I definitely will take that into consideration in the
| future. I'm not sure if it would have helped in this specific
| case but I can definitely think of other situations at work
| where taking your advice would have helped me.
| sdenton4 wrote:
| Pushing back on changing requirements is also a good skill to
| pick up. Part of it is getting a really clear agreement on
| what you're actually doing - what's the real scope of work -
| and actively changing the agreed plan when requirements
| change. I also find it helpful to highlight that changing
| requirements will have a cost in time, etc.
|
| There's also a an art to getting together a good MVP
| efficiently. You can treat lots of added requirements as
| shiny feature requests, and prioritize them below getting the
| MVP working. Having an MVP that people can try out and see it
| working at all goes a long way towards building belief in
| your work. At the same time, you want to build flexibly
| enough that the MVP can expand rationally to take on those
| added feature requests... without writing in SO MUCH
| generality that nothing ever gets done. Doing this well is a
| skill learned on the back of many failures and tedious
| refactors... But efficiently getting a demo+MVP is golden,
| even if you build up some tech debt to get it.
| serverlessmom wrote:
| Ouch, that's a really rough spot to be in. It's really harsh of
| your boss to tell you that they expected you to get this project
| done earlier when you are so new to the company, it doesn't feel
| like very valid feedback and I would try not to take it
| personally and just assume that they were having a bad day and
| unfortunately they took it out on you. Regardless, giving that
| type of criticism is not a good pattern for your boss. It's just
| not effective.
|
| The idea of proving your worth at a company is definitely
| something that has been repeatedly proven to me as being
| invaluable. I would try opening a dialogue with your immediate
| boss and having a bit of a check-in. I think that as this project
| comes to a close now is a good time to do that. I would let them
| know about how uncertain you felt with that bit of criticism, and
| maybe asking for concrete suggestions to address the problem with
| your upper level boss. Maybe some way that you can submit extra
| weekly reports detailing more of the work that you are doing on
| specific projects, including changes to requirements and how they
| affect your workflow. Sometimes bosses get so caught up in the
| big picture they don't recognize the ways that unexpected changes
| impact their teams.
| sloaken wrote:
| With a person just out of college, I would say if they have this
| many complaints then they totally lack management skills.
|
| If you do not get an apology, then I would leave as they will
| just damage you more.
|
| What the manager boss did was wholly uncalled for. I recommend
| sending the link to this discussion to his boss.
|
| Your manager and boss may be very technically smart, but like
| many people who are technical, they need a lot more education in
| management. I have been, in the past, as bad as your manager and
| their boss. But I have learned to be better.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Get another job. Your management wants to Design and write code
| like the past. If they're criticizing now it'll never end and you
| will eventually be fired. I would get another job and just walk
| with zero notice. They won't do you any favors in the future.
| unixhero wrote:
| Please pose this question in /r/consulting as well. You'll get
| additional valuable input. Best of luck friend.
| tacostakohashi wrote:
| A few takeaways from an old-timer here:
|
| > First, he basically tells me this project should have been
| finished a long time ago and he can't believe it's taken this
| long etc. I had no idea that he felt this way before the meeting
| - I've mostly just been working to get it done before the revised
| deadline my manager gave me.
|
| You need to communicate, build relationships, and get feedback
| from many people in the organization. One of those people is your
| manager's manager.
|
| > He looks at the code and criticizes design decisions, some of
| which were made largely on my manager's explicit suggestions.
|
| It may be the case that your manager is wrong, his design
| suggestions were dumb, etc. Or, it may not. This is one reason
| you need to get feedback from people other than your manager.
|
| > Part of the reason it had taken so long is because I put a
| substantial amount of work into a part of the project that's no
| longer necessary due to changing requirements, which I don't
| think I could have forseen.
|
| Use this as a learning experience. Do not put work into things
| that may or may not be needed. The correct way to tackle a big
| project with changing requirements is to get something working
| end-to-end, possibly with a whole lot of copy and paste, hacks,
| hardcoded stuff instead of configuration, whatever. Then, when it
| is doing what it supposed to do, go back and improve it, rinse
| and repeat. Do not put lots of work into one part if other parts
| are missing, non-existent, and the project doesn't work end-to-
| end.
|
| > For instance he said I should have looked at other projects to
| see how they accomplished what I'm trying to do.
|
| This is great advice. It is often the case that if you ask the
| right question/person, someone will say "oh, yeah, I already did
| that, here's the code." or "I tried that last year, and it didn't
| work". Or, they might not, but the only way is to ask around,
| talk to people. This also goes back to the first point, build
| relationships with people other than your manager, because your
| manager doesn't know everything, and is probably wrong about a
| bunch of stuff.
| ryukoposting wrote:
| > Do not put work into things that may or may not be needed.
|
| Hindsight is 20/20.
|
| > You need to communicate, build relationships, and get
| feedback from many people in the organization. One of those
| people is your manager's manager.
|
| This is valid advice, but the manager/colleague/etc's feedback
| has to be useful. In that regard, OP's manager's manager
| failed.
| chana_masala wrote:
| > You need to communicate, build relationships, and get
| feedback from many people in the organization. One of those
| people is your manager's manager.
|
| That's an unreasonable expectation. That's your manager's job,
| not yours. If you have a skip level manager that is expecting
| direct updates from you... they're doing management wrong.
| xupybd wrote:
| It's hard to do but an effective tool to build political
| standing and gain insight to be able to assess the quality of
| feedback.
| shard wrote:
| Building relationships with a skip level manager doesn't have
| to be about direct updates. It's not about going around your
| manager, either. It's building another channel of
| communication where you can ask for help on blockers, get
| updates on issues specific to what you're working on, build
| visibility for the work you are doing, and create good
| working relationships. Unless your manager never goes on
| vacation, you're going to have to work directly and report to
| your skip level manager at some point in time anyway. In my
| company, my manager has regular sync-up meetings with his
| skip level manager, and encourages me to do the same.
| davidw wrote:
| > Do not put work into things that may or may not be needed.
|
| You're a junior dev, someone tells you something is needed, you
| work hard on it. I guess you learn to question your boss as to
| whether it's _really_ needed, but that sometimes isn 't
| optimal, either.
| tacostakohashi wrote:
| Trust, but verify. The advice was about how _not_ to be a
| junior dev.
| mishftw wrote:
| There are a couple assumptions you're making here. For instance
| the firing (from your perspective likely but will they really?).
| Take a step back and take stock of the situation.
|
| Communicate with your manager. Your manager not being there in
| that meeting definitely didn't do you any favors. Make sure the
| both of your are on the same page. They should have been there to
| deflect. Be proactive about communicating and making sure
| everyone is in alignment. Easier said than done especially if the
| company is smaller or the manager is busy. But a 20 minute time
| investment per week will be worth it.
|
| Figure out why this happened. Figure out what can be fixed and
| move on. But be vigilant because that kind of behavior is frankly
| uncalled for. On the other hand getting a new job in this market
| should not be too hard.
| mam4 wrote:
| There are thousands of workplace to go. Weird this is not the
| main answer
| eweise wrote:
| Hate to say it but start looking for another job. I've been in
| the same situation and learned that its almost impossible to
| change a boss's perception of you once it becomes negative. Maybe
| there are some things you could have done to be more transparent
| and those are great learnings to take to your next gig.
| mercutio2 wrote:
| Highest order bit:
|
| This sounds like you have an inexperienced manager. You should be
| given baby projects, with clear (generous) deadlines when you're
| this junior.
|
| Second order:
|
| The most common failure mode I see in new employees (some of them
| quite senior!) is, given a 12 part project, thinking it makes
| sense to spend 1/4 of the allotted time on part one. This is
| almost never the right thing to do.
|
| You have to spend much less than 1/12 of the effort on each
| individual piece, even if this means you're hacking it together,
| THEN fill in the gaps, or you are setting yourself up for
| disaster.
|
| A really good manager would've given you a 2-3 part project, as
| your first "real" project, so that you could learn this lesson
| without much harm done.
|
| If, in fact, you got a project that needed only a few things
| done, and you committed way too much time to the first part, then
| this is just a lesson you're learning about shipping real
| projects!
| sloaken wrote:
| How long have you worked there? You say its your first job, and
| it makes a difference if you have been there 10 years or less
| than a year.
| invisible wrote:
| >but it seriously bums me out
|
| Talk to your manager. If you don't have 1:1s, ask to have routine
| meetings. If your manager can't help you, alleviate your stress,
| or guide you forward, look for a new job.
|
| It's hard to really say anecdotally if things were fair or
| unfair, but your manager's job is to help you (and selfishly, for
| you, they should help you grow in your career).
| [deleted]
| pidge wrote:
| Yes, you should be able to tell your direct manager basically
| what you told us. Copy and paste into an email if that's
| easier. (Your tone here is fine.)
|
| It does sound like your manager's manager has poor people
| skills / favors a more confrontational management style. If you
| have a good direct manager that can be tolerable, up to you to
| decide how much it bothers you.
| Gortal278 wrote:
| Shrug it off and keep your head down. Keep on producing good
| work. Your manager should of deflected this sort of stuff and you
| are a junior developer. The responsibility doesn't really fall on
| you.
|
| Take some notes about what you can do better on future projects
| and try and improve. Rinse and repeat.
|
| Gj on delivering.
| de_Selby wrote:
| >Your manager should of deflected this sort of stuff
|
| Also keep in mind that there is a good chance the manager might
| have had OPs back in all this, maybe it's just the managers
| boss who has unreasonable expectations (maybe due to poor
| communication from the manager about changing requirements
| etc).
| djKianoosh wrote:
| DONT keep your head down though. That's part of the problem.
| Get out of your bubble/headspace/etc and talk to other devs.
| Compare approaches. Reach out to others to see how they're
| solving problems. Even problems you're not having. Especially
| those actually, for when the time inevitably comes when you
| have to deal with those issues.
|
| As a new person you can't possibly know everything. If you dont
| have someone showing you the ropes then you have to take
| initiative and talk to others.
|
| Especially in larger orgs, this is invaluable.
| C19is20 wrote:
| Be slightly wary of taking advice from people that use 'of',
| instead of 'have'.
| TheDudeMan wrote:
| Stop thinking about it. Keep working hard. Maybe push back harder
| against design decisions that you disagree with.
|
| Always remember that almost any negative comments might be due to
| the perpetrator simply having a bad day.
| xkbarkar wrote:
| Welcome to adulthood it sucks, youre gonna love it.
|
| If you manage to find a workplace that does not sport atleast one
| manager that does this, consider yourself lucky.
|
| My advice, look for truths in what he said ( I am sure he was
| correct on some aspect somewhere ) and work on that. Ignore the
| rest and move on.
| tdeck wrote:
| I haven't had this happen anywhere in my 7+ years of experience
| under 10+ different managers, some of whom were much better
| than others. While it might not be that unusual, op might also
| consider that this reflects poorly on their work environment
| and that there are better ones out there.
|
| Also, this sounds like something that would happen at Amazon.
| I'm curious if it was there.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Your boss has a problem of some kind and is trying to scapegoat
| you. Write up notes in as much detail as you can recall and store
| a copy somewhere with a date stamp - if you're not comfortable
| putting it on the internet, send yourself a letter by registered
| mail and don't open it when it arrived.
|
| Then keep it on file and return to work. Change tack as
| explicitly instructed by otherwise just keep doing your job. Your
| contemporaneous records of the conversation are insurance that
| you can mention if/when you find yourself having an uncomfortable
| conversation in a HR office.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Be humble. Try to take his (possibly unfair) criticisms in
| stride.
|
| Work harder, do better. Be open to correction, take this as a
| growth opportunity.
| rsj_hn wrote:
| That's good short term advice, but long term if you are still
| not getting recognition you should think about leaving or
| transferring to another team.
| azangru wrote:
| You are describing an organizational dysfunction. If you got to
| the point where the boss says how he can't believe it is taking
| you so long, which is news for you; and suggests that you look at
| other projects when you are already nearing the finish line, then
| something is seriously broken with the communication within your
| org; and it should be your boss's, or your manager's, job to fix
| that.
| yholio wrote:
| A manager cannot ever blame a product delay on individual
| developers in a team. That's the whole damn point of being a
| manager and getting the top brass, large office and colored
| parachute: you must take responsibility for the end result, the
| buck stops at you.
|
| If a critical path activity is not completed and delays the
| product, it may be that an individual developer failed in his
| task, but it _your fault_ as a manager for the product delay: you
| should have dedicated more time or more experienced talent to
| that component, you should have tracked it closely and corrected
| the problem, you should have communicated to upper management the
| objective reasons outside your control and team for a delay, etc.
|
| Otherwise, what does a manager exactly do? Sits around at his
| desk waiting for task to be completed on time like some sort of
| plantation owner?
| delgaudm wrote:
| Former individual contributor, former middle-manager and former
| "VP-level boss" here. I've seen all this before, several times
| over.
|
| Know that this will recur throughout your career, most likely.
| Your boss is disconnected from the project and the manager, and
| the boss has no idea what's happening at the individual
| contributor level. It's always "you shoulda done this, you
| shoulda done that" It's always in retrospect from a boss like
| this, never, ever in anticipation. Did the manager or boss say:
| "Hey dazeandconfuse, we've seen this before, you can look at how
| the Widgetspinner project solved that issue for guidance." No.
| They're not there for you. They're there to blame you when their
| failure to support you manifests itself.
|
| I'd bet that the manager and the boss don't have productive 1-1
| sessions on any regular basis (or even very good communication)
| and thus the boss doesn't know the status of things. The boss
| ultimately is too lazy to care or really be involved, doesn't
| listen, or the manager sugarcoats things, or lies outright, or a
| combination of all these things. No one is accountable on a day-
| to-day basis. The boss never, ever looks at the project plan with
| any comprehension - even though they're constantly insisting you
| document stuff that they'll never read. Especially action items
| from meetings.
|
| In cases like this, the boss will pretty much always over
| estimate how quickly things can get done, and under estimate how
| much work and complexity is involved, or what the real
| bottlenecks are (and in all likelihood that the boss is a big
| bottleneck themselves. They are overconfident in the resources
| they have, and probably don't institute positive processes for a
| happy, productive workplace. The boss will ignorantly sabotage
| things by withholding information, failure to be involved, fail
| to communicate, fail to have clear goals, failure to identify
| outcomes, failure to see the big picture.
|
| We used to have a phrase about changing requirements, the case of
| "The Executive Drive By". The boss will make a suggestion for an
| enhancement: When that enhancement changes the schedule and
| delays a project then "It was only a suggestion, I didn't set a
| new requirement", or if the project stays on time without the
| suggestion then it's "Hey you guys screwed up, where are the
| blinkenlights I asked for, can't you guys get this right? Who is
| running this project?!?" Win-win for them, lose-lose for you.
| Just like they want it to be.
|
| I'd take it as a signal of poor communication up-to and down-from
| the boss, and in all likelihood the boss isn't really interested
| in ensuring the manager's success. If the boss was unhappy with
| progress, the manager should've known long ago, before the
| deadline slipped, and it should've been communicated by the
| manager down to everyone with new expectations and goals and a
| plan that eveyone was on board with -- including the boss. That
| that didn't happen tells you everything you need to know. There
| are problems. Probably systemic, and unlikely to change.
|
| It's a sign of typical dysfunction and the natural adversarial
| relationship between manager and boss. Eventually the boss will
| seek scapegoats down the line when things don't go well, never
| accepting any blame themselves. Never.
|
| Eventually won't go well enough that a "reorg" will happen and
| people will be shuffled around, someone will get fired, and
| ultimately nothing will change. I've seen it happen over and over
| again.
|
| Also, know that you don't owe your company jack shit. They are
| not, and will not be loyal to you, ever. Ever. They will cut you
| at first necessity. Be prepared to do the same at any time. Boss
| will blame manager, manager will blame you, people will get
| fired, unjustly or not. Probably unjustly. Bosses never fire
| themselves, ever. They will always place blame down the line.
| Always. Bank on it.
|
| PROTIP You're new in your career: As long as you are employed,
| powersave a portion of your income into a separate savings area
| as F-U money -- so you can go 6 months or more that you can live
| on in between gigs. This gives you ultimate power over the boss:
| "If you don't like my work or my performance, F-U, I'm out."
| mudlus wrote:
| I don't think you should quit, but oddly enough, this other HN
| post about quitting seems really appropriate. Check out the first
| flow chart here: https://jmsbrdy.com/blog/leaving-spring/
| Mirroring what some others have said, if it was me, I'd talk to
| the manager and work things out from there.
| cityzen wrote:
| You have a horrible manager that should have either been in that
| meeting or rescheduled it while they were "putting out fires"
| (big red flag)
|
| This is your first job out of college, I assume they know that.
|
| How you should proceed is to just shrug your shoulders and say,
| "ok boomer"
| polyomino wrote:
| You should switch managers. In this job market, no reason to keep
| working with them if they aren't working for you.
| albertTJames wrote:
| I found that book quite useful to understand/frame those
| relations: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kim-
| Scott/dp/B01KTIEFE...
| bastardoperator wrote:
| This is not how a serious professional would provide feedback to
| a junior level engineer fresh out of college. If your boss is
| tearing you down instead of building you up, I'd go look for
| something new. You need mentors and people that want to see you
| grow.
|
| As a director if I had the same thoughts, I'd approach it much
| differently. - What do you think were the major
| blockers? - What do you think we can we do differently to
| speed up next time? - Have you had an opportunity to see
| <insert exhibit>, looks like some really cool ideas and examples
| - What were the good parts of this project in your opinion?
|
| He had an opportunity to build a rapport with you and decided
| instead to instill fear and doubt. I have never called myself the
| boss, I'm on your team, my goals are just a little different, but
| most of them hinge on the fact that you'll be successful, and
| that it's my job to ensure that success.
|
| Plenty of people are hiring, you shouldn't have to feel like this
| for weeks on end because he lacks intelligence and empathy.
| fshbbdssbbgdd wrote:
| Tell your manager that you are scared by what happened in the
| meeting with the skip manager and ask if they want you working
| for them or if you should start looking for another job.
|
| Most likely you should leave in this situation, because if your
| skip manager thinks you suck, you don't have much of a future at
| the company. They will likely need to approve promotions, raises,
| etc.
|
| However, you don't have much to lose by being very open with your
| manager and seeing if the situation can be repaired.
| pacifika wrote:
| All the criticisms you mention concern the responsibility of
| others and do not reflect on the work you have put in (expected
| scope change, deadline changes) so it sounds like there is a
| communication issue between your manager and the boss. It was
| therefore 'unfortunate' they werent at the meeting. I don't see
| how you could have produced anything more based on your account.
| Perhaps you're able to reflect similarly.
|
| Besides remind yourself you are all working towards the same goal
| and put your best into the job, projects are never ideal, that's
| ok
| jdavis703 wrote:
| First, make sure you're not over reacting to negative criticism.
| Remember, you paid your university and rated your professors. As
| a result, they probably coddled you to an extent. Now you're in
| the real world, people are going to be brutally honest.
|
| Second, ask for constant feedback. I try to ask my boss what I
| should keep doing and what I should start doing and if there's
| anything I should change.
|
| This serves two purposes. It helps me grow and make sure I'm
| meeting expectations. But it also serves as an anchor for your
| boss to also think about you in a positive frame (I'm assuming
| your boss likes at least some of what you've done, otherwise
| you'd be gone).
| somenewaccount1 wrote:
| My first boss used to mark up my work with red pen (it was a lot
| of printed output). He was correct to criticize the work, but
| really sucked how he went about it. Like, it was intentionally a
| bit demeaning. I left after a couple years, even though I was
| doing quite well.
|
| After reflection some years later, I would say I was overly
| reacted / was overly emotional over it. But it's hard to feel
| that way at the time.
|
| Alternately, after several more jobs and life experience, I have
| made the most money by jumping companies and not sitting still. I
| have also learned some bosses are just dicks / incompetent. That
| boss was niether, but some definitely are.
|
| So, I don't know where you and your bosses fall. If you genuinely
| think they would fire you (have they fired others?), then it
| would be prudent to interview other places. If it just 'feels bad
| man's, try and take the hazing with some pride that you survived.
| Over time, they may just respect that you are tough.
|
| Good luck!
| dazeandconfuse wrote:
| The boss is definitely not incompetent (he's incredibly smart),
| and I don't feel like he's a dick either. Maybe this is just my
| naivete from being fresh in the job market, but I really wanted
| him to like me, and one of the things that bums me out the most
| here is that now I obviously feel like he doesn't. I do feel
| like some of his criticisms were unfair, but like I said in my
| post I can't deny that some of the problems are genuinely my
| fault.
|
| Thanks for the encouraging words though. I probably am being
| overly emotional about it. I have a lot of model uncertainty
| about my boss so I have genuinely no idea whether he would fire
| me.
| rdiddly wrote:
| Everything you've said so far indicates your immediate manager is
| the problem. Although her boss seems like a dolt too.
|
| Examples: 1) "The deadline was pushed back..." - Hey it happens,
| but why did the initially-chosen deadline turn out to be
| unrealistic? Why did the team not meet the deadline? She should
| not only be able to answer those questions but be willing to take
| ultimate responsibility for everything happening with her team
| and her projects.
|
| 2) "busy putting out a fire" - In the short-term, maybe not her
| fault, but as short-term becomes long-term, "fires" become more
| and more her own fault.
|
| 3) Due to thge alleged "fire," she didn't show up to the meeting
| with you and her boss, which is disrespectful to both. Also
| possibly inefficient (does a manager really need to be the one to
| personally put out said "fire?"), but that judgment-call depends
| on the nature of the "fire," which you haven't revealed. Anyway
| she left you, an individual contributor who is not managing the
| project, to take criticism about the management of the project.
| Bad design decisions, often not a management issue, became one
| when she insisted on hers. Meanwhile, changing requirements, well
| those are 100% a management problem from the getgo. And the
| delays. A management problem. Why are you answering for
| management decisions and management problems? That kind of
| feedback is normally delivered to someone who has the global big-
| picture bird's-eye view etc., i.e. the manager. For that matter,
| just as a matter of protocol, isn't that kind of feedback
| normally delivered to a direct report rather than two levels
| down? You said it yourself, "I had no idea..." That's right and
| why would you? (Well if it was something you should've known,
| then there was no way for you to know it except by your boss
| conveying it, so she failed again. Or, it was always her problem
| to begin with. Either way, she failed.)
|
| 4) According to him, you've been screwing up - how would he know
| that? From her, who has apparently been throwing you under the
| bus. Like why would you even have been invited to this three-way
| meeting that really should've been between her & him? Unless she
| had already started linking the failings (her failings) to you,
| such that you were an important or even relevant attendee to the
| meeting. She screws up, she blames you. That's not what a leader
| does. Meanwhile I bet he's in love with her and finds her
| blameless in every way. (I'm joking a little bit, but not
| entirely. Watch them together sometime if you think I'm onto
| something, and see what you think.)
|
| The thing is, whether any of these points are her fault or not,
| she is supposed to step up and take responsibility for them and
| not throw underlings under the bus.
|
| Anyway, based on my reading between the lines of your comments,
| which I know are only telling your side of the story, I don't
| think you're going to stay happy in this job. It's going to get
| more and more shitty, especially if she gets away with it this
| time. I think you ought to enumerate to the two-levels-up boss
| all the reasons why you think that whole thing was unfair. Write
| all the points down on cards if you have to. Stand your ground.
| He ought to respect your nerve, or if not, if he sees you as a
| petty threat then you are working for petty people. Hopefully
| I've given you some perspective or a way of articulating or
| thinking about things. It's your very first job so you're not as
| good at spotting this kind of _douchebaguerie_ (Fr.)(JK) or even
| knowing that it 's not normal. Well, strike that, you definitely
| can tell it's not normal, as your feelings are trying to tell
| you, so good on ya for listening to them.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| This is pretty sucky, either you have two bad managers or you
| have a bad manager and another who was having a bad day. Either
| way, this is largely more a reflection of them than you.
|
| But that doesn't help you, what does is a concept commonly known
| as "managing up".
|
| You need to manage your manager to get the best out of the
| situation. Good communications are key, you need to provide
| regular updates that are easy to digest and that can be referred
| back to later. If you have a decision to make that you want their
| input on then ask but also propose a solution and, if you are
| right on time, tell them that you will proceed with you proposed
| method if you haven't heard back from them by X time.
|
| You can't change the past but you can learn from it and implement
| this kind of thing.
|
| Also, a trick to do with sneaky managers you don't trust is to
| make these updates in channels with other people in on
| Slack/Teams etc. This is why email CC hell occurs, you're
| basically covering your ass BUT if it's in a group chat you can
| call it "desiloing, knowledge sharing" etc.
|
| You're fine, you just got burned by rubbish people, there are a
| lot of them, manage them and your life will be easier.
|
| Also, if you're a fresh grad and been left totally unattended and
| you've basically hit the deadline then you are not the problem.
| Expectations on new devs are very low usually.
| OJFord wrote:
| Talk to your manager about it, 1-1.
| cdavid wrote:
| Indeed, this is what you should do. Proceed a bit carefully if
| you don't have a good relationship yet with your manager: by
| good relationship, I mean knowing them enough to figure out how
| much you trust them.
|
| You would also benefit from talking to other engineers who have
| more experience, especially in that company. It is easier to
| talk casually to people you don't report to.
|
| It is difficult to give more concrete advice w/o more context:
|
| * a "best case" scenario is that the senior manager (your
| manager's manager) was having a bad day, maybe got themselves
| into trouble for X reason. Managers are human too.
|
| * another scenario is that your senior manager is actually
| still inexperienced. E.g. did not have time to talk to your
| manager first and then decided to skip directly, etc.
|
| * a worst case scenario is that there is something weird going
| on between your manager and his manager.
|
| [edit] A manager's manager talking to an individual contributor
| (you), especially about technical details of a project is just
| weird. It is hard for me to think of a scenario where I would
| do this. Why ? Because as a Manager's manager, you lack context
| about why certain things happen. And the person responsible for
| your outcome is by definition your manager. You mention both
| manager being smart people, "knowing their stuff": they may
| lack experience on the "people manager" side of things. That's
| often a drawback of working in very technical environments.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Many similar good pieces of advice in sibling comments, but
| I'll add my agreement to this one.
|
| From the subject line, I came in all fired up to start with
| "just quit; it's the greatest market for SWEs that the world
| has ever seen". After reading some of the details, I'm inclined
| to think "eh, it's some poor leadership being shown, but it
| doesn't sound irretrievably broken anywhere yet."
|
| Start with your direct manager and setup an hour long 1:1. Let
| her know that you have some mixture of confusion and a small
| amount of concern, but that you're focused on understanding the
| feedback and, where appropriate, using it to improve. I think
| it's terrible form for your manager to bail on the 1:1:1
| meeting and, if she had to, your skip-level manager should have
| rescheduled it. It's not just development for you, but it's
| development for her and while you should be having quarterly or
| so skip-level meetings with them, you should never be in a
| position as a fairly fresh grad to have your project work
| reviewed in a setup like this one. Poor leadership technique
| (IMO), but it's not evidence of anything toxic if they're open
| to "yeah, that sucked; we won't do that again".
|
| I'm often in the role of wondering "why the hell is this
| project taking so long?!" and simultaneously realistic that
| there are generally very good reasons for it. (How many
| software projects in the history of world took wildly _less
| time_ than originally contemplated?) Two years from now, I
| expect you to have developed a clear sense of how to explain
| those justified delays in a way that 's convincing and non-
| defensive, but it's pretty damn unfair to expect you to be able
| to do that now, especially if you're a summer 2021 grad. You're
| spending all your time busting tail to just get the damn thing
| to work and someone's chirping about a second-order effect
| ("sure, it works, but why'd it take so long?" is just not a
| question that you're well-positioned to evaluate yet).
|
| I think your overall approach and attitude here is going to
| serve you well in your career and dive into this one head-on
| and with curiosity with your direct manager. You've always got
| the great SWE market to fall back on, but this one seems like
| staying and fixing is a better plan.
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| This is the first advice I agree with.
|
| See how your actual manager describes what you just went
| through. If they're supportive, write them an email thanking
| them for their defense of the aspects where you felt attacked
| by your super-manager. Having it in writing will make sure it's
| _real_ and you're not being gas-lit.
|
| If you don't get it in writing, or if your manager isn't
| supportive during a 1 on 1, then it's time to start looking for
| another job.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Hey mate. This situation is pretty common in my experience. Its
| not your fault, its bad management but by the same token bad
| management is so common in software development you need to
| develop some defence against it so in future i recommend the
| following:
|
| 1. Make sure all your time is tracked on a file you control.
| Don't necessarily share that information freely but it might be
| useful to you if you need to explain stuff layer to answer why
| something took so long.
|
| 2. Always have a written down scope and when it changes make sure
| there is evidence and record this with your time log.
|
| 3. Always send an ass-cover email saying "scope has changed and
| here is a revised estimate"
|
| To be fair for your first job out of college they are treating
| you pretty badly and my gut here is after getting your 2 years to
| prove to are not an early quitter it will be time to move on, and
| when you do expect a big salary jump.
| asciimov wrote:
| Have you gone to your manager and discussed the meeting? Start
| there, One on one.
|
| Just tell them what their boss told you and go from there.
|
| Take any criticisms with a grain of salt. While they may be valid
| they also may be their own frustrations seeping through.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| Keep your head down, and use the time wisely to line up a new
| job. No need to accept anything just yet, but start putting out
| feelers.
|
| If your boss is saying bad things about your work while you're in
| the room, you can bet your bottom dollar it's amplified when
| you're not there.
|
| One way things may play out is in the review cycle, if things are
| coming up negative there, with no positives, then you can
| throttle up the job search.
|
| Either which, look after yourself first and don't let them pull
| the rug from under you with no options.
| JamesBarney wrote:
| The first thing you should do is go to your direct manager and
| discuss the feedback you got. See if they feel the same way. One
| of three things is happening. Either your boss went off on you
| without communicating with your direct supervisor.(unlikely) Or
| your direct supervisor feels this way and is too chickenshit to
| them yourself. Or they are throwing you under the bus.
|
| The second thing you should take into account when planning your
| career is you probably aren't going to promoted under this boss.
|
| Third thing is "welcome to the corporate world!" You probably
| need to do two things more often. One is request feedback from
| your direct supervisor more often. The second is let people know
| what you're doing, how you're doing it, and what circumstances
| are holding you back. Basically if someone changes something and
| that means you're going to miss your deadline let everyone know
| in via email. If you run into any issues that will delay the
| project, again send out an email explaining the issue why it was
| unforeseen, and how it'll impact the deadline.
| gretch wrote:
| I would say something like:
|
| Wow, actually that feedback is quite surprising to me. I've been
| working hard on the project, and all the feedback I've gotten
| until now is that it was coming along nicely. A lot of the design
| decisions you pointed out were direct suggestions from (manager)
| and I thought I was doing a good job by implementing them
| thoroughly. Maybe we should have this meeting again with all of
| us in the room?
| hondo77 wrote:
| I'd change that last sentence to "I will work with my manager
| to address these issues right away." The meeting with the three
| of them should have never happened. The direct manager should
| have been raising these issues along the way. It doesn't help
| that it sounds like the direct manager is a weasel. Couldn't
| attend the meeting because of putting out fires? Please.
| geofft wrote:
| I quit my last job over less than this, and I felt really
| uncertain about it at the time, but my career growth,
| compensation growth, and intangible feeling of management support
| have all been _massively_ better at my new place - and I found it
| by being randomly contacted by a headhunter. My old job wasn 't
| _bad_ nor was my old manager, there just wasn 't a fit between
| what I wanted to do with my career and what my employer wanted to
| do with that role. The immediate trigger was that I had a
| conversation much like this one where I thought I was being
| treated unfairly, and in retrospect I wasn't really, but in fact
| it was a good sign of that mismatch.
|
| So I do want to encourage you to keep your eyes open for other
| opportunities. If you're a Rust coder working on computer vision
| stuff, and you're early-career enough that you're not
| particularly tied down as a person, you have a _lot_ of options.
| brandon272 wrote:
| I would have an honest conversation with your manager about the
| meeting that you had with the manager's manager.
|
| Be plain and tell them that it made you uncomfortable and
| confused given your contributions to the project and the fact
| that you hadn't heard any negative feedback prior. Their response
| could be one of many. They could say that the boss is an asshole
| and just overreacted. They could say, "Actually, they were right.
| We've been disappointed with this project and think you could
| have done better."
|
| If the response is the latter, it then really opens a whole other
| can of worms because if they have been disappointed with your
| performance all along, why are you just learning about it now?
|
| Managers have responsibilities to their direct reports,
| _especially_ junior devs to provide ongoing feedback and
| guidance. If that hasn 't happened in this case and the project
| is considered a failure, that is a major problem.
|
| I also think it's possible that your manager's manager is
| uncomfortable being direct with your manager. So instead of
| having a candid conversation with them, they used you as an
| emotional punching bag as a way to air their grievances. Which is
| totally inappropriate and nothing you should take personally, but
| is also something that should be considered a red flag to working
| for/with these people.
| myowz wrote:
| This boss telling you that they felt the project should have been
| done a long time ago: I wonder who that comment benefits? Feels
| like no one. You get bummed, they give late feedback without a
| lot of constructive aspects to it.
|
| I am trying to think of one way it was useful to tell you that,
| but I can't.
|
| Seems like you should feel justified in not being a fan of
| working under this person. What you do with that is hard to say.
| Sounds like you got to work on a cool project and got to mostly
| solo it. That's pretty great for a junior.
| dazeandconfuse wrote:
| I'm not sure. I'm glad he told me, otherwise I wouldn't have
| known I was undershooting his expectations. I did make mistakes
| that made the project taking longer than it had to. I guess if
| I want to keep working here I'll need to find a way to make
| fewer mistakes like that in the future.
| water8 wrote:
| I think just about every new developer makes mistakes that
| make a project take longer than it had to but this is how you
| learn and improve for next time.
| nlh wrote:
| I agree with this sentiment. And in fact, I'll take it further:
|
| I'm not sure any "you should have" phrase is ever beneficial
| UNLESS it's in the context of giving guidance about the future.
| And even then, it's better to phrase it as "next time, I would
| suggest..."
|
| This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. "You should
| have" phrases are often used to berate or make the recipient
| feel bad while acting as a vent for the sayer. By grammatical
| definition, they refer to events / things in the past and
| suggest an alternate course that didn't happen. A theoretical
| construct. Good for language construction, bad for feedback.
|
| I'd love counterexamples if anyone thinks differently, btw.
| xupybd wrote:
| The only counterexample I can think of is the present tense.
|
| For example: You have kids, you should have life insurance.
| cocoggu wrote:
| I think it is useful to let the employee know what are the
| accepted delays in this company, for future projects. But the
| boss or the manager should have said that earlier, at the
| beginning of the project, then the employee knows what to
| expect.
|
| That's quite clumsy to say it only once the project has been
| released. Anyway, don't take it too personally, he/she probably
| just wanted to keep the pressure on you so you keep improving
| and never stay satisfied with your current pace. That's not
| very good management, but that's the way it is in most
| companies.
| seneca wrote:
| > I am trying to think of one way it was useful to tell you
| that, but I can't.
|
| It's useful if it's a warning that OP isn't meeting
| expectations. Getting that feedback before a formal review,
| when there is still time to turn it around, is beneficial.
|
| I've seen junior engineers be blindsided during a review more
| than once. They go in thinking they're doing great, because
| they've gotten no incremental feedback and lack the experience
| necessary to guage on their own, and then hear they're not
| cutting it. Getting this feedback before review time (and
| preferably even earlier than OP did) is good, even if it hurts
| to hear.
|
| Obviously that feedback should have gone through their manager
| though. OP's manager should have rescheduled this meeting if
| they couldn't make it, since they probably already knew the
| feedback was negative.
| zwieback wrote:
| The first meeting where your manager just abandoned you and you
| ended up talking to your manager's boss is totally inappropriate.
| Being so new to the job basically all the responsibility is with
| your direct manager and her boss is wrong to dump on you without
| your manager present.
|
| I'd give it another chance though, sounds like the work is fun
| and maybe you can communicate your concerns to your direct
| manager.
| tpmx wrote:
| Yeah, this the root cause.
| curiousllama wrote:
| Anytime your skip-level steps in to guide your work directly,
| it's either a failure of your manager or the skip-level
| themself.
| dpeck wrote:
| Completely agree. As a general rule if a junior developer does
| something "wrong", unless it purposefully malicious, it's on
| the manager.
|
| OP, I'd say keep this situation in the back of your mind and
| reevaluate in a few months. If it happens again, start the job
| search.
| rightbyte wrote:
| The plan was that she would be present? Maybe the boss' boss
| just had a plan to whine at her, but only OP showed up.
| hnal943 wrote:
| Right that's a huge failure of the manager in this scenario.
| If you can't make it, do your best to get the meeting
| rescheduled. Don't just bail and throw your junior dev to the
| lion.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Agreed. OP should schedule a meeting with the manager to find
| out how they're doing, if expectations are being met, etc. It's
| entirely possible that things are just fine, but the boss has
| the wrong idea about this particular employee.
|
| I think it's a sign of bad company management, but it's by no
| means a dealbreaker. i.e., not something to quit over.
| fundad wrote:
| Absolutely do schedule a meeting with your manager. Ask for
| actionable advice, ask for goals between now and review time
| or this will cost you.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| Before that, OP should get a clear set of expectations from
| the manager. If a manager doesn't express clear expectations
| and the metrics used to measure outcomes, then they can't
| expect them to be met.
| psyc wrote:
| This was my reaction as well. The skip-level should not be the
| first person to let them know they're perceived as under-
| performing. OP: Schedule a 1 on 1 with your direct manager and
| have a conversation about all of this.
|
| My skip-level at my first MAAAM job used to snipe at me when I
| was a new hire. He told me to my face he "would not have chosen
| me" and "didn't know how I got in." It made me so angry it was
| all I could do to hold my tongue until I got the fuck out of
| his office. But I went on to become very successful there, and
| he eventually had no choice politically but to support me. He
| got managed out a couple of years later.
| ragona wrote:
| > He told me to my face he "would not have chosen me" and
| "didn't know how I got in."
|
| Holy shit. Glad that this person got managed out...
| eventually.
| forinti wrote:
| It seems to me that you have bad managers. Blaming the rookie
| underscores their ineptitude.
|
| Don't worry too much about it. Prepare yourself to not be like
| them when you're the boss.
|
| Every project has tons of things to iron out. It is best to
| discuss them openly, hear everyone, and backtrack when necessary.
| XorNot wrote:
| Plan to quit. Start looking for new jobs now. The boss has made
| his mind up about you - when the manager leaves or is transferred
| you'll be gone next.
|
| I have been in this situation and the reality is there is just
| nothing you can do to salvage it.
|
| It sounds like you've been there nearing a year and you've
| delivered a project - perfectly good reasons to be moving on when
| you've basically been given a warning that they're thinking about
| canning you.
| fdr wrote:
| Don't sweat it too much, but it sounds to me like this
| organization has communication problems, and it's not really
| realistic to expect a fresh face to industry to identify them
| consistently and act proactively. I personally think your skip-
| level was having a bad day (in which case they may feel bad about
| how they said what they did) or an abrasive personality (in which
| case they may not). In the latter case, they may or may not hold
| a grudge. Ideally, it's the "not." Some people are brusque but
| really do not overweight it in ongoing evaluation.
|
| Now that you know the communication problems are there,
| regardless of the accuracy of fault finding, you may have an
| inkling on how to compensate for it now.
|
| If they start dogging you with bad projects or bad work
| conditions, I'd start looking for the door. If not, write it off,
| hold no grudges, and focus on learning.
| tikhonj wrote:
| Strikes me that the person not doing good work here is _your
| boss_ and, probably, your manager.
|
| What did the meeting you have actually accomplish? How will it
| help you or the rest of the team improve?
|
| If the project or the timeline are so important, how does any of
| this help you get there? If I have a real deadline that I need
| somebody to hit, I'm going to explain the _context_ of the
| deadline to them--how else are they going to make good decisions
| to actually hit the deadline?--and I 'm going to continue talking
| with them throughout the whole process so that both of us
| understand how the project is progressing compared to
| expectations. If something is slowing the work down, what should
| we do about that? If there really is some mismatch in skills,
| what can we do to help you improve, and how should we adjust the
| rest of our plans?
|
| Feedback like this should never come as a surprise. I don't like
| absolute rules in any complex scenario, but this is about as
| close to an absolute rule for leading a team as I can imagine.
| Even if the overall assessment of your work is "fair"--how likely
| is that?--the fact that it came out of nowhere for you and that
| you are not sure what will happen next is straight-up _bad
| leadership_.
|
| It sounds like you're feeling guilty about the feedback, or that
| it means you are not an effective programmer. The one upside
| about this situation is that there are specific reasons to
| believe it really is _them_ , not _you_. The downside is that
| there probably isn 't much you can realistically do to change the
| situation--after all, if your leaders aren't effective, how much
| do you expect working "harder" to change anything? The main thing
| that I've found helpful in these situations is to remember that
| your "performance" is very context-specific, and the context here
| sucks. I've often found it hard to feel this _viscerally_ , but
| even just thinking this rationally and recognizing my feelings
| for what they are has helped.
|
| Recognizing this also helped me get in the right state of mind to
| decide what to do next. I've had situations like this a couple of
| times; the first time I ended up switching companies and the
| second time I switched teams within the same company--both times,
| it made a larger difference than I expected.
| rmk wrote:
| I doubt if your manager really had to miss the meeting to put out
| a fire. It feels like things were set up so that your skip-level
| manager could upbraid you about your work. One possibility that
| does explain it satisfactorily is that your manager was promoted
| recently into people-management, and your skip-level manager is
| still handling some of the performance management conversations.
| If this is not the case, this is something of a red flag.
|
| In the same vein, it's very unusual for your skip level to have a
| meeting about this and talk about design, code etc. People at
| that level typically do not get involved in things at this level:
| in fact, your manager is the one who will have a lower-level
| involvement.
|
| Alternately, your immediate manager is leaving or being fired and
| your skip-level manager is taking stock of what he's going to
| have to deal with in the near future.
|
| In either case, it does not look like a good situation. You
| should interview aggressively and take a new position, even if
| you really are at fault. Impressions of someone as a bad
| performer almost never go away, and it is rarely worth the effort
| to stay to fix that impression. You are better off being able to
| get a reasonable reference while things have not escalated.
| krimbus wrote:
| Just relax and try to learn the most that you can from this
| interaction: This person could be on a bad day or be a natural
| asshole, maybe you did misunderstand your manager comments, you
| definitely should have looked at other projects and most
| importantly, now you know how not to give feedback to someone
| else.
|
| Anyway, this is your first job and you are playing a very long
| game. Don't let a single interaction determine how you feel. As
| many others already mentioned, you can also talk about it with
| your manager to figure out what happened.
| tqi wrote:
| Sorry that happened, sounds like it was a very difficult
| experience. Talking this through with your manager or a trusted
| coworker is definitely going to yield better advice than what
| people can offer without context. However a few thoughts:
|
| 1. Treat individual bits of feedback as one of many inputs to
| career growth: Feedback isn't infallible, even if it comes from
| smart / experienced people. It is tinged by personal quicks and
| biases, and often comes from a place of incomplete context. There
| are valuable things to be learned from it, but you should use
| each bit of feedback to update your existing priors rather than
| throwing out everything you previously believed.
|
| 2. Perception and reality are not the same: A dirty secret about
| "work" is that the perception of your work is often more
| important to advancement than the objective quality. I think it's
| helpful to keep that in mind when reflecting on this person's
| feedback, and think about what are the actions you can take to
| ensure that perception of your work is improved (not just here
| but in future roles).
| xupybd wrote:
| "my manager and her boss are both super smart"
|
| That doesn't mean they are good at growing staff. In our industry
| that seems to be lacking big time.
|
| You need this sort of feedback but it should probably have come
| from your manager. You said your manager was too busy. It sounds
| like the company is struggling to meet deadlines. There must be a
| lot of pressure on your management. That might mean they don't
| manage you very well .
|
| Don't get down. You were probably very good at university and now
| as a junior you have a lot of growing to do. That's a shock many
| of us face. You will always have a skill set in demand. Learn as
| much as you can here. If you don't like it you can move on. Don't
| let your confidence get shaken.
| wooptoo wrote:
| Your boss is gaslighting & intimidating you.
|
| - Do not be intimidated into thinking you did your work poorly.
| I've seen this happen many times with employees being guilt
| tripped, especially the younger more junior employees. You are a
| professional and the work you do is important for the company,
| you do it with pride and to the best of your ability.
|
| - Beware of gaslighting. Some bosses can be incredibly
| manipulative and will resort to all sort of tactics to get more
| from you. They can have you attend more meetings than necessary
| because there's a deadline coming up for them. They might want to
| shift the blame to you when something hasn't been done in their
| department, even when it wasn't your job in the first place. When
| this happens clearly state that it is not your responsibility and
| that you do your job well and on time.
|
| - Stop caring too much about company problems, and focus on your
| own work. You should not care if the manager does his job poorly
| or if the company is not doing so well. It not your fault. They
| are running the business poorly.
| JamesBarney wrote:
| > - Stop caring too much about company problems, and focus on
| your own work. You should not care if the manager does his job
| poorly or if the company is not doing so well. It not your
| fault. They are running the business poorly.
|
| This entirely depends on whether you care about promotions.
| Understanding the company problems, and your manager's problems
| will directly impact your ability to get promoted in the
| future.
| pvarangot wrote:
| If you are writing code every day, it works, and your peers (not
| your manager) are using it to meet deadlines and ship more
| working code, don't listen to your manager. If your code has
| observations and design issues it shouldn't get merged unless
| everyone is ok with the tradeoffs, if it's being merged and
| people are not ok and you are junior developer, it's your
| managers fault and you probably need better process in the
| company as a whole.
|
| But seriously if you are writing rust code every day and it works
| and none of your peers is visibly complaining to you, you are
| probably doing right and your manager is just not doing their job
| at filtering high frequency nonsense from chattering at the
| management level.
| pvorb wrote:
| OP's description sounds like they are working alone on this
| project and that there's no peer review. Which sounds like a
| weird thing to do for a junior dev that just got out of
| college.
| pvarangot wrote:
| Yeah that definitely falls on "you probably need better
| process in the company as a whole"
|
| If they really slipped a deadline because a junior developer
| wrote code with design issues even when it was pointed out by
| his manager, it's the managers problem. The way to deal with
| that is tell the developer "this is the new peer review
| process" and just stomach the delay.
| ryukoposting wrote:
| Tell your manager about the conversation with your boss. Keep
| working hard. Communicate with colleagues, and always ask
| questions when you have them- or even when you think you might
| have a question.
|
| Your manager's manager has authority over you, but remember: that
| job is probably 100% non-technical. Highly technical advice (e.g.
| anything relating to how you write/structure your code) should be
| taken with a grain of salt. When it comes to code feedback,
| listen to other engineers, listen to your manager, and listen to
| whoever is reviewing your PRs. Those people actually have to use
| your code, so you should write your code in whatever way _they_
| prefer.
|
| If you really feel like they might try to get rid of you, get a
| signed letter of recommendation from your manager now.
| alliptic wrote:
| It happens. Learn and move on.
|
| Also, see if you can chat with the boss to clarify their
| expectations for you.
|
| In the future, don't linger on a projects, no matter how fun you
| find it. The main principle should be "get it done." That's
| industry for you.
| Guest42 wrote:
| The one time I ran into a scenario like this it was an upper
| level executive looking to flex and show that they are the alpha.
| My manager and manager's manager stayed after the meeting to tell
| him that my project met the specs perfectly. Later on I found out
| that every person who had been in the department over a year had
| gone through that exact scenario. I kept on working and
| ultimately it was fine, but the department had a lot of churn
| with people mentioning this practice in their exit interviews,
| end result was him getting promoted even higher.
| emptybottle wrote:
| Surprise skiplevel feedback is pretty strange. Tells me that the
| boss is inexperienced, maybe poorly managing stress.
| Micromanaging the engineering decisions of their own team just
| reinforces that.
|
| If you have a good relationship with your manager tell them what
| happened, how it makes you feel, and let them deal with it to
| make things right.
|
| If there was even the hint of this happening again I'd find a new
| job.
| beardedetim wrote:
| I'd ask for specific, clear expectations and rubric from your
| direct manager. You should never ever ever ever be blind sided by
| your skip. If you are, the manager is failing you.
| cwkoss wrote:
| Start sending out resumes, sounds like a dysfunctional management
| structure, probably wont get better and you'll be happier
| somewhere else.
|
| If a lateral transfer seems possible, tell HR you would like be
| transferred out of your manager's boss's org structure.
|
| Go above manager's boss's head and file a complaint against them
| for incompetence and unreasonable expectations: blaming workers
| for delays caused by poor project management is counterproductive
| and unacceptable CYA behavior. (Ideally once you already have a
| better offer in hand)
| broknbottle wrote:
| > Go above manager's boss's head and file a complaint against
| them for incompetence and unreasonable expectations: blaming
| workers for delays caused by poor project management is
| counterproductive and unacceptable CYA behavior. (Ideally once
| you already have a better offer in hand)
|
| This is terrible advice..
| cwkoss wrote:
| Why? If you already have a better offer in hand, let the
| company know where the incompetence is on your way out the
| door.
| deltaonefour wrote:
| I'd advise against this. In many companies HR sides with
| management if he works for one of these companies HR could even
| report what you say to them directly to your manager. Be very
| very careful about this.
| renewiltord wrote:
| The problem here isn't the feedback. The problem is the surprise.
| It's on your management chain to reduce surprise. Concrete
| achievable actions on your part are:
|
| * Ask for weekly 1-1s with your manager
|
| * Proactively bring up the subjects of difficulty here.
| * This means you bring up the subject of how long it's taking
| etc. * Don't be afraid to look stupid. It's her job to
| make you non-stupid if you are.
|
| * Ensure progress is both real and visible to every level. It
| might not be that easy for someone fresh out of uni.
|
| * Don't get too down on it. You are at the beginning of your
| career. 10 years from now it'll be a memory you can only bring up
| with conscious thought.
| pugworthy wrote:
| I was in this kind of situation once, and it was basically a
| setup for subsequent termination.
|
| My advice is that you should have a 1 on 1 with your manager
| ASAP, and ask them to be upfront with you about things.
|
| In the end, if someone says you failed to deliver on time, or you
| failed to follow instructions, or you failed to write code as it
| should be written, you can't do a thing about it. If you've been
| tagged as a "failure", arguing your point or trying to say they
| are wrong will go nowhere if they already have made up their
| mind.
|
| If your manager is "managing up", then you are not in a good
| place as you will become a scapegoat for problems. If your
| manager really has your back and will defend you, you are in a
| better place.
| golemotron wrote:
| > How should I proceed?
|
| Send out resumes. Handwriting is on the wall.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Scenario 1) You did produce substandard shit code that could have
| been done in a week. In that case, figure out what you did wrong
| and learn from it. Most fresh college grads produce shit code,
| it's just a thing. No one holds it against you because you're
| young and new. In this case, recognize the advice from someone
| better and more experienced than you, and just do better next
| time. Don't take it personally as an attack on your abilities and
| character. I'm sure you're a nice person. I'm also sure as a new
| college grad, you have a lot to learn still. This is one of those
| times where you can use an experience to learn.
|
| Scenario 2) You did a fine job but your manager is unable to
| appreciate that. In this case, you still have more to learn but
| not on the programming side (well, probably still more to learn
| there, but not relevant to this situation). This is a lesson on
| how to deal with bad managers. They are not better than you, they
| do not own all of your time, and you have the right to leave at
| any time. As a dev, you will probably be able to find employment
| again easily. Use this to your advantage and any time the
| pressure from this bad manager rises, remind them of that fact
| and be ready to call their bluffs. Polish your resume, and get
| out of there in 18 months (bad managers don't get better).
| Leverage your position to a better job at higher pay.
|
| How to tell between Scenario 1 and 2? That's hard to say without
| more specifics, but either way I think the takeaway is to try to
| learn what you can from this and don't take it too hard.
| Den-vr wrote:
| The professional habit I developed to manage scenario 2 started
| out as upward directed leadership and sometimes turned into
| simply coaching my bosses to be better themselves. There's a
| part that jumps out to me in the OP, the requirements changed
| so a lot of his work went to waste. Incredibly common. Equally
| common is management not realizing that it's something that
| they should take ownership of.
| rambambram wrote:
| Dogs have a boss. Start using the right names for things - at
| least in your own head - and you will work it out, I'm sure. And
| besides, he might act like a boss, but this is probably not a
| good leader. There's a difference.
|
| What helped me in these kinds of situations, is having a very
| clear picture in one's head of the relationship. It's work,
| there's a horizontal agreement made upfront. This dude is not
| your father, not your king, not your slaveholder.
| sebringj wrote:
| This feels toxic. Immediately start looking for another job in
| the related field. Don't wait. Have something lined up. When
| smells start... they don't go away. Time to be proactive instead
| of reactive. If this keeps happening, it is you. If not, it's
| them but you shouldn't wait to find out. If it is you, don't
| worry, you can always improve. If it is them, well, you are
| better off. From what it sounds like, its them.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| You need to balance letting your manager know that this is a bad
| way to manage with the likelihood that your manager will forget
| about this. Managers should let you know early if things aren't
| going well so you have time to course correct. They also
| shouldn't leave new juniors alone to make important architectural
| decisions. On the other hand, to the extent that this "counts
| against you" if you don't say anything about it your manager will
| likely forget it happened in a relatively short time.
|
| I would create a list of your manager and his peers. Record how
| long, approximately, they've been in their current role then
| average those times.
|
| If the number is short, like six months, then I would let this go
| on the premise that, in six months or so you'll probably have a
| new manager and it's just not worth arguing about.
|
| If the average tenure is much longer then I'd wait a week and
| implement as much of the feedback as possible. Then I'd schedule
| a meeting with the manager to go over what I'd done in response
| to the feedback and raise the concern about late feedback.
| Dowwie wrote:
| You mentioned that you got to work with Rust. Is the critical
| boss an opponent of using the language for projects? The issue
| could be political and have nothing to do with you. Another thing
| worth noting is that this can be a manipulation tactic of
| lighting a fire under your ass to get more out of you (churn and
| burn). Again, it has everything to do with you working even
| harder than you have going forward. Finally, this discussion with
| you can be your performance review that is held against you when
| cuts come. They may already be coming and they already decided
| who should go, and this discussion was necessary for legal
| reasons.
|
| Your code, if it works and has been tested, is already better
| than what could have been written in many other languages. You
| will learn software design and architecture with experience. It
| will come in time. Keep investing effort to learn how others
| design and your work will improve.
|
| You should proceed by working your ass off and keep doing what
| your doing. Computer vision and Rust? Get it all while you can.
| Whatever hard work you put in will pay itself forward. Either
| you'll quit on your own or be cut and have done everything you
| can to prepare for your next job. It's a win/win situation for
| you.
|
| Keep going.
| titzer wrote:
| Putting on my (thankfully former) manager hat, I'd say that you
| are bearing the brunt of your boss's poor planning. As others
| have commented, you getting blamed by a skip-level manager is a
| bad sign and something is off. But, now that you know that, don't
| turn around and blame your manager for it or make a big stink. It
| will _not_ be in your favor to make a big stink, especially if it
| 's to take sides against them in a public way. Your relationship
| with your manager is important, so you have to find a way to move
| forward that doesn't inject more bad blood into the situation.
| Try to keep your conversations about this confidential--don't go
| blabbing about it and loudly complaining. It can make the
| environment toxic. As the low person on the totem pole, you might
| just get shown the door.
|
| Going forward, make sure that expectations are clear.
| Particularly requirements! Make sure you have requirements
| spelled out, on paper, over email, in planning documents. Make
| sure you point out when requirements change, and do it over email
| or paper, or some durable medium. Don't let situations get murky
| and rely on faulty memories. In short, try to be the organized,
| rational, delivering engineer that puts in good work and reliably
| delivers. If your management doesn't have the attention span or
| organizational skills to spell out plans and requirements, then
| it's going to be on them when failure occurs.
|
| Things not being on time is almost _always_ management 's fault.
| They set timelines. They set expectations. They have the power
| and make the decisions. As long as you are giving them good
| estimates and delivering, it's _definitely_ their fault if things
| slip.
|
| edit: I will add that you don't need to keep _what you are
| working on_ confidential. Talk to your coworkers and friends
| about your technical challenges _all the time_. Just don 't bad
| mouth your project or your manager.
| infamouscow wrote:
| The job market is hot, it won't take very long to find a better
| one.
| justinzollars wrote:
| Find a new job.
| sgt101 wrote:
| Write down all the criticisms & comments and add two columns :
| fair, actionable. Go down the columns and honestly put a tick in
| the boxes - if its a fair comment and if it's actionable. If you
| have any with two ticks then that's a learning point. This is
| great - you have a gift. Then decide what to do about them, you
| will get some progress and something to talk about in your
| interviews in the future.
|
| Ignore the rest - there's nothing you can do about imaginary
| problems. If you get fired for them then you are being fired for
| an arbitrary reason, nothing to do with you - everything to do
| with them. If you ignore the real, actionable comments then
| that's on you - it will probably be fine in the long term - but
| not as good as it could be.
| theobr wrote:
| I'm getting a suspicion of an "umbrella manager" here, like the
| boss is a storm and your manager has done a good job keeping you
| out of it. Either that or he threw you under the bus, but that
| feels less likely.
|
| I would try and talk with your manager about this. See how he
| feels about the boss and their method of delivering feedback. If
| my suspicion is correct, he's getting it even worse than you.
|
| Either way, I'd recommend you start hunting for your next gig. If
| your manager is dealing with the same type of degrading feedback,
| bring him too :)
| dwt204 wrote:
| Whatever you do, DO NOT QUIT. The lessons that you just learned
| are going to help you and most likely will guide you in the
| future. After a while you will meet other people like these two,
| who are most likely responding to pressure from above, and since
| both of them seem to micromanagers (my assumption) they would
| find something to fuck about with you regardless. You know what
| you have done, and there is no possible way to respond or meet
| deadlines when there is a hidden agenda. Just do what they ask to
| the best of your ability and the rest will take care of itself.
| Good luck and Godspeed.
| kodablah wrote:
| > Whatever you do, DO NOT QUIT
|
| I disagree with this. Maybe do not spontaneously quit, but
| having worked at many places with this kind of toxic multi-
| level management pessimism/pressure, it doesn't get better, one
| just gets jaded or apathetic. Never appreciated. Your outlook
| is defeatist and comes across as giving middle mgmt excuses.
|
| It's totally acceptable to find somewhere where you'll be
| happier, even earlier in your career, especially with the
| leverage devs have now in the employment market. There are a
| ton of places out there not like this.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| Unfortunately alot of people don't know how to manage junior
| developers well.
|
| Take it from me - you are FINE - you are doing well. I know this
| because you have the right attitude and you are working hard -
| these are the primary factors that determine how a junior
| developer is doing.
|
| Do not be disheartened by the incompetence of your managers.
|
| You are at the beginning of your career - keep doing exactly what
| you are doing.
|
| In time you will find you have suddenly levelled up. Keep working
| hard and every few years you'll jump in level again.
|
| Start looking for another job now - get out of that place because
| your career there is finished and your management are
| incompetent.
| lido wrote:
| Get a new job. Your boss and her boss are bad, not worth it.
| BobbyJo wrote:
| 1) Take the constructive criticism and use it. That's the most
| important, most objectively actionable, part of this whole thing.
|
| 2) Your management structure is broken. You can fix it or leave,
| but you should definitely do one of the two. If you want to fix
| it, it seems like you should be talking to your manager. She is
| either not giving you feedback that you should be getting, or you
| should completely ignore the boss, but which of those two is the
| case needs to be cleared up. If it is the former, you're probably
| being managed by someone that isn't comfortable being a manager
| yet, and you can help her by asking for feedback while being
| super transparent about the work you're doing. If it's the
| latter, then just ignore away.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| Welcome to corporate America, where you are a disposable cog in a
| machine of managers trying to build their own empires and save
| their own asses. You either learn to play the game or you get
| crushed. If this is a name band company where the stock and
| benefits are worth it, then stick it out and find your way to
| move to another team. If this is a no-name company, then think
| really hard about what your future career looks like there and
| whether it's worth it relative to other opportunities. Are you
| going to get fired? No probably not - they probably aren't giving
| you two thoughts and it was as much about a manager posturing or
| venting as anything. But, that tells you something about the
| quality of management above you and you have to decide whether it
| is worth harnessing your career to them.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Unless you want to be seriously underpaid into the future and lag
| in promotions, virtually nobody has a future at their company as
| a junior developer. You could easily work for 20-40 different
| companies in your lifetime. Just make sure you are always
| marketable and what your manager thinks matters a great deal
| less.
| duxup wrote:
| It could just be some careless words by other manager and nothing
| comes of it.
|
| It's very hard to know. Personally I'd write up my thoughts on
| the project, list the changing requirements and etc, but not
| share them at this point if you don't feel comfortable doing so.
|
| I will say that I find the idea of any kind of astonishment or
| frustration about a project given to "new guy + first year out of
| college" guy is absolutely absurd.
|
| Any "new guy + first year out of college" should have someone
| assigned to them and monitoring / helping and there should be NO
| surprises / blame assigned to "new guy + first year out of
| college" (outside of some very unlikely bonkers level lies or
| poor performance).
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Your manager's manager shouldn't be directly criticizing you.
| This is so wrong on many levels. That manager should relay
| feedback to your manager directly and your manager discusses
| performance in a 1:1. That's the ethical way to do it. This feels
| like a power play and you should get an exit strategy worked
| ASAP.
| asow92 wrote:
| When this sort of stuff happens, you should have a paper trail
| that you can point to call out this kind of BS. This is why story
| grooming, sprint planning, and documentation are your friends and
| not some useless chore--they keep people accountable.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| > I'm working my first job out of college
|
| I could have stopped reading there. My first job hop after
| college brought a 150% pay increase. Don't leave too soon, but
| you probably don't want to stay at your first company for too
| long either. Especially if it's a source of stress and unfair
| treatment.
|
| It's not so much about the company as it is about getting a
| second perspective, and probably a pay increase, early in your
| career.
| mattst88 wrote:
| Well put. This is advice I wish I'd gotten!
| literallyaduck wrote:
| Work to specification while you find a new job. Get the
| requirements via email or send a confirmation email for anything
| that you believe might be an "offhand remark".
|
| The market is hot and jobs are currently plentiful.
|
| Realize that a lot of the tech world reads this site so be
| careful.
| kazinator wrote:
| The problem is that your manager was not there; you were
| interacting with the wrong level!
|
| The issues with the project that you were chewed out for were
| actually issues between the boss and your manager.
|
| I'm guessing that planning of this task went on between your boss
| and your manager. Your manager made some promises about delivery
| that were unrealistic. Possibly, there had been an earlier
| (totally unrealistic) deadline for the project that you don't
| even know about that your manager initially promised, and that
| the boss still has engraved in his mind as something that should
| have been stuck to.
|
| Your manager possibly bailed out of this meeting on purpose,
| using the fire fighting as an excuse, to expose you to the
| proverbial shit she has to deal with at the management level.
|
| > _I have no clue what happened in that meeting and I haven 't
| heard anything about it from either of them since._
|
| But you can probably guess. The boss likely reiterated all the
| same stuff, and your manager realized that you heard all of it,
| and that it was unfair, since some of the problems were her
| fault: everything from the code suggestions that you followed, to
| unrealistic promises that didn't even have anything to do with
| you.
|
| Maybe your manager didn't do anything on purpose, but as a
| general rule, never discount that. It happens that managers will
| take credit for everything that goes right, and use the people
| under them as scapegoats to blame when things don't go right.
| Plus do other things like make adjustments to information they
| think you don't know. They might promise to the higher boss that
| something get done by end of December, but tell you that the
| deadline is end of November. That sort of thing.
|
| For that reason, it would behoove you to establish rapport with
| your manager's manager. Do not allow your manager to be an
| entirely opaque proxy between you and the rest of the
| organization, and your only source of information.
| theduder99 wrote:
| juniors gotta junior. just kidding! keep your chin up and take
| the good advice and don't let the criticism get you down. manager
| may have made unrealistic deadline commitments and should be mad
| at himself not you. as for hiring more people to a project, that
| likely means the manager wants the project to be completed faster
| OR he doesn't want all his eggs in one basket (you). managers
| must constantly plan for worst case scenarios (like critical
| people leaving the company)
| jb1991 wrote:
| Sounds like a bad mentor. You may need to cut your losses. It's
| possible your interpretation of your progress is not accurate
| compared to expectations, but that does not mean anyone should
| interact with you the way you are suggesting your dude did.
| Software development is hard and a good boss will understand that
| and help you grow, not belittle you.
| riccardomc wrote:
| While maybe your boss could've used some more empathy, there are
| many good learnings here that I struggle myself with:
|
| - communicate your progress more often. The status of the project
| should never be a surprise, especially when things are not going
| perfectly well. Write it down, send slack updates, be proactive
| in communication.
|
| - being proactive includes asking for feedback and for help when
| needed.
|
| - avoid doing with the goal of being praised. You know when
| you're doing well, you know when you're learning. That's all that
| matters really. Especially in your first job. Your goal should be
| self-reliance.
|
| - avoid attaching your sense of self worth to the code you write.
| You'll write great and shit code. That doesn't reflect on who you
| are. You'll be horrified at the code you wrote 2 years ago, but
| you will also be proud of how far you got.
|
| - you are good enough
|
| Take it easy my friend. If the goal of mountain climbing was to
| get to the top then people would summit the Everest on a
| helicopter. Enjoy every step of the ascent instead. Slow down and
| enjoy the view sometimes.
|
| And fuck your boss.
| specialist wrote:
| Time to start looking for the next gig. That boss is unsuitable
| for management. Lacking emotional intelligence, willingness to
| mentor, and so forth.
|
| I've never successfully managed upwards, never have been able to
| turn situations like yours around. I've had jobs that I really
| liked, so tried really hard to make things work.
|
| It was never worthwhile. I always regretted the effort.
|
| The good bosses I've had made all the difference. And why I
| happily stayed in gigs, despite other offers, despite red hot job
| markets, despite more interesting work.
|
| Life's too short. Don't stress the losers any longer than it
| takes to get away.
| sebringj wrote:
| This is dead on accurate. You cannot control upwards, well
| said. You have to work with good people in the first place.
| This is not a fashion industry parody where you are supposed to
| be insulted to be tolerated. This is development and you should
| be treated with respect.
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