[HN Gopher] Charles Mingus Cat Toilet Training Program (1972)
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Charles Mingus Cat Toilet Training Program (1972)
Author : lightlyused
Score : 274 points
Date : 2022-01-09 14:08 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.charlesmingus.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.charlesmingus.com)
| dang wrote:
| Anybody want to take a shot at figuring out the year?
| pvg wrote:
| 1972 it looks like, from googling the better original title
| _The Charles Mingus Cat-alog_
|
| https://www.topospress.com/collections/prints-and-ephemera/p...
|
| https://www.schoolforthedogs.com/podcasts/episode-96-the-cha...
| iainctduncan wrote:
| For folks who are like "who is that guy again?".... Mingus was
| one of the most important jazz bass players in 20th century and a
| key figure in both bebop and free jazz. And quite a character.
| This is but one of his legendary achievements!
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Indeed, and how could I resist reading an article with that
| title?
| tclancy wrote:
| The poop of the jazzman's cat is some jive-ass shit.
| iainctduncan wrote:
| Winner. That's some inside baseball shit, lol.
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| I also like how he wrote his eggnog recipe, it's very much in
| his voice
| https://www.charlesmingus.com/blog/news/minguss-5-star-raptu...
|
| I've never actually made it
| jbigelow76 wrote:
| I saw the title and thought "you mean the Jazz musician,
| Charles Mingus?" And sure enough, it is, which kind of makes
| sense. A random person named Charles Mingus explaining cat
| toilet training isn't interesting; it's the esoteric
| intersection of a genius who helped shape an entire genre of
| music and the mundane things people do in everyday life.
| noman-land wrote:
| Not just a bass player but a legendary composer.
|
| Here's one of my absolute faves, Pithecanthropus Erectus.
|
| https://youtu.be/p0H2G_W-O0I
| drumttocs8 wrote:
| Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is one of my top albums of
| all time.
| jbigelow76 wrote:
| I got into Charles Mingus through "Mingus Plays Piano", I
| particularly like piano jazz when working, but any bop
| oriented jazz is good. Newcomers should give "Myself When I
| Am Real" a listen, it's a lovely composition.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk71dhCz7wM
| noman-land wrote:
| Absolutely beautiful album, and Myself When I Am Real is
| one of the best tracks.
|
| The whole record has little bits of studio talk before and
| after some of the recordings and you can hear Mingus
| feeling really shy and vulnerable playing alone. You can
| even hear it in his playing, I think. Pretty remarkable.
| Love that guy.
| amongwhales wrote:
| Love Myself When I Am Real and Black Saint. But I had
| trouble finding other songs as enjoyable. Is there
| anything else similar in his catalog?
| cushychicken wrote:
| _Black Saint and The Sinner Lady_
|
| !!!!!!!
| jokoon wrote:
| I wonder if animal trainers have tested this method again and
| again. I suspect that not all cat will be able to be trained like
| this.
| pcj-github wrote:
| Our cat spontaneously unlocked this achievement at about 5 years
| of age... We heard a little noise in the bathroom for a couple
| weeks and could not figure it out until we actually caught her in
| the act. Hilarious, and quite convenient!
| ubermonkey wrote:
| Given that the strip is now (ouch) almost 19 years old, it occurs
| to me that some folks may not have seen Nightlife Mingus'
| appearance in the web comic Achewood:
|
| http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=06202003
| boondaburrah wrote:
| Man look at that early 2000s simple text-based web header & web
| design.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| It often strikes me that nothing has aged as well as solid
| colour backgrounds/widgets when it comes to user interfaces.
| If you'd told me this site was made in 2021 I'd believe you.
| Another example that comes to mind is the intro screen at the
| start of The Running Man, crisp white text on a red
| background. Looks as modern as the day it was made:
| https://i.imgur.com/wCRSDK0.jpeg
|
| I wish I could extrapolate from this to figure out what else
| will age well when designing UIs.
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| This is the strangest intersection of my interests I've ever
| experienced.
| password1 wrote:
| Linus from LinusTechTips did a series of videos on how he trained
| his cats to do this:
| https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLiNYRHLggAj39fRHaUYE42D2v...
| mthom wrote:
| The cat that pamphlet is about, Nightlife Mingus:
| http://achewood.com/?date=06202003
| subpar wrote:
| While we're talking about Mingus, don't sleep on his mind-blowing
| eggnog recipe. I try to make it every year... a beautifully
| alcoholic act of improvisation:
| https://www.charlesmingus.com/blog/news/minguss-5-star-raptu...
| koalaman wrote:
| I left my cat alone in the house for a few days with my
| housekeeper popping in to feed and entertain him. He had a little
| over 2 day spell on his own at the end when my housekeeper
| couldn't come in. When I arrived home I discovered that our
| housekeeper had accidentally closed off the door accessing his
| litter box. I searched the house looking for the mess but
| couldn't find anything.. until I went to the bathroom and found
| that he had taken upon himself to use the toilet. He's definitely
| gone up in my esteem since.
|
| All to say that some cats don't need any kind of training to use
| the toilet.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| This is true. My cat definitely pees in the sinks and bathtubs
| sometimes even when his litter is fresh. He poops in the litter
| with no issues, so I don't think it's a location problem. My
| best educated guess is that he simply finds the sinks more
| convenient than hiking down to the basement.
|
| I have no doubts that he would pee in the toilet as well, but I
| can't leave the toilets open because we have dogs around.
|
| (Although, now that I'm typing this, I suppose we could install
| cat-doors on the bathroom doors to let the cat in, and keep the
| dogs out...)
|
| The sink/bathtub peeing is definitely gross and not ideal. But,
| not as gross as it sounds. He very very precisely pees directly
| down the drain. The smell is almost unnoticeable. So
| unnoticeable that it took us a _lot_ of time to figure out he
| was even doing it, since he sometimes pees in the box as well.
| The main danger to him peeing in the sinks is that it will make
| it difficult for us to know if he has a blockage as we can not
| monitor his urine output.
|
| (I am not "noseblind" to cat pee smell, as far as I can tell.
| The litterbox is in the basement and if I neglect to clean it
| on a given day and there is pee in there, I can smell it from
| upstairs. I've also asked trusted people like my brother to
| verify there's no cat pee smell in the house! He's not afraid
| to give me harsh opinions...)
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > but I can't leave the toilets open because we have dogs
| around.
|
| As someone who's never been a dog owner, what's the problem
| with dogs and toilets?
| sethammons wrote:
| Dogs like to drink from toilet bowls. I've owned lots of
| dogs and it has never been an issue aside from one dog as a
| kid and we just accepted it
| Nextgrid wrote:
| If this is really a big problem I wonder if a brand could
| come up with a mix of Bitrex
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatonium) and one of
| those deodorizers/fresheners you put hanging on the edge
| of the toilet bowl.
| base698 wrote:
| My cats also drink out of the toilets.
| fullstop wrote:
| My cats will use the sinks or tubs if they have a UTI.
| jaxn wrote:
| Did they continue using the toilet after that?
| rectang wrote:
| Cool cat.
|
| I love how Mingus is so in tune with how his cat (Nightlife)
| thinks, sensing how to encourage him, how to avoid freaking him
| out, how to lead him along.
|
| Some of Mingus's best known works (Mingus Ah Um, Black Saint and
| The Sinner Lady, etc.) are organized group improvisations, with
| multiple wind instruments playing improvised lines at once. It's
| different from big bands like Ellington's where you have featured
| soloists and everybody else playing charts (even if the rhythm
| section does some improvising), and it's difficult to achieve
| balance of the various elements under such circumstances. I get a
| sense from this article how Mingus manages to get inside the
| heads of his collaborators, to keep their trust, and lead them
| towards a shared vision.
| [deleted]
| throwawayjd wrote:
| I wonder if this is a joke or an actual technique. I'd be very
| interested to see someone reproducing this.
| ludamad wrote:
| Cats exist that do this, and I haven't seen anything
| implausible from a cat psychology standpoint. Seems legit. Dogs
| can too
| shimonabi wrote:
| It's not a joke.
|
| I've never tried it, but I've seen plastic products selling on
| the internet that replace the cardboard.
| xtlyths wrote:
| I successfully got 2 middle aged cats to do this. They have
| both since passed and I have two new cats. I haven't bothered
| to train them, but I think it's because my wife cleans their
| box and I haven't thought about it.
|
| The first two cats did this almost effortlessly. They didn't
| give us any trouble because we changed steps slowly.
| chairmanmow wrote:
| I believe you, sounds like a bit of a bother to train the new
| cats as well. Makes me wonder though if once one cat was
| trained, if you got a new kitten whether it could pick up the
| behavior from the trained older cat. That'd be pretty great -
| the gift that keeps on giving.
| ratww wrote:
| I have a friend who never trained their cats for that, yet the
| two cats seem to prefer the toilet. The cats even have two
| spacious litter boxes away from food and noise. Every time I go
| to his house my friend reminds me to put the lid down after using
| so the cats don't use it.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Out of curiosity, why would he _not_ want them to do that?
| Seems very convenient and saves on cleaning the litter box
| manually.
| shigawire wrote:
| I've always been intrigued but the risk/reward seems too high. I
| don't want to mess with the bathroom habits of my cat who has
| never previously relieved himself outside his box. I scared to
| try to fix what isn't broken at this time.
| darksaints wrote:
| I've seen this tutorial almost word for word before, and I even
| know a few people who have trained their cats using this method.
| It wasn't until today that I realized that this was method was
| created by one of the most famous jazz musicians in the world
| (and IMO the best bass player that ever lived).
| LNSY wrote:
| I love Mingus.
|
| The Watts Towers complex has a museum to Mingus attached, as well
| as another museum of local artists attached. I'd highly recommend
| a visit. It's a beautiful neighborhood full of very nice people.
| xbar wrote:
| As if I didn't have enough reasons to love Mingus.
|
| Thanks for the museum suggestion. I haven't been to the towers
| since 1979 when I made my parents take me after they played in
| a tennis tournament at USC while I hung out at the Boys and
| Girls Club in the nearby park.
| nani_o wrote:
| hmahncke wrote:
| Excellent use of adaptive learning, zone of proximal development,
| etc.
| foreigner wrote:
| Has anybody managed to teach this to a dog?
| wwwwewwww wrote:
| I considered training our cat to do this, but there's a bunch of
| advice out there saying that it may be harmful to your cat, and
| may be difficult as the cat gets older. So please consult with
| your vet before going this route.
| metabagel wrote:
| If you have a cat which uses the litter box without any problems,
| count your blessings and call it a day. Having a cat use the
| toilet is counter to their instincts to bury their business from
| other animals. If they fall in, they'll be traumatized and start
| doing their business in other unpleasant places.
|
| I've used the litter robot, and honestly I think a plain old
| litter box is easier to keep clean, and in general better for all
| parties.
| WickyNilliams wrote:
| Funny story: I knew someone who trained their cat to do this. It
| was all going well, the cat had been using the toilet
| successfully for a number of weeks. That is, until the cat fell
| in the toilet one time. From then on it refused to use the
| toilet, but had become accustomed to going in the bathroom... So
| the cat started popping in the bath. And no matter what he tried
| he couldn't stop the cat from doing this. At least the story is
| funny from the outside perspective. Perhaps less so if it was
| your bath and your cat haha.
|
| On a more serious note, I believe it is not advised to put cat
| poop down the toilet, since our sewage treatment systems are not
| capable of dealing with toxoplasmosis from cat faeces
| intricatedetail wrote:
| Then a cat does "business" in whatever that triggers similar
| response as toilet e.g. your shoes, pots etc. It's also not fun
| cleaning the cat that fallen into toilet bowl (and all the
| splashings around).
| viach wrote:
| Similar to how one gets a backend developer working on "full-
| stack" - by slowly moving tasks context.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| I think I just realized that my wife has been doing this to me
| for years. Eh, I respect her game.
| kaashif wrote:
| Appreciating the full stack rather than just focusing on the
| backend is very important to a marriage.
| ramy_d wrote:
| Does toilet training your cat introduce a significant health
| hazard through toxoplasma gondii into the surrounding
| environment? It's so hard to tell if your local wastewater plant
| takes care of this...
| nickkell wrote:
| I could have sworn I read something to this effect, that this
| is ill advised because waste treatment plants aren't really
| equipped to handle animal parasites
| WickyNilliams wrote:
| Yeah this is my understanding. Sewage treatment cannot
| destroy toxoplasmosis
| drakonka wrote:
| There are even special litter boxes sold that are intended to go
| on the toilet seat for this type of training. But as cool as this
| is, I believe it can be dangerous, especially for owners of male
| cats.
|
| Cats' urinary habits are important to keep an eye on. A change in
| urination volume or frequency can be the sign of a critical issue
| that requires veterinary attention. You just can't easily track
| urine volume if the cat is going to the toilet, even if they
| don't flush.
|
| With a litterbox, you can get an idea of what their normal clump
| size is and notice if that changes. Regarding frequency, maybe
| you can hear your cat jump on the toilet, but I'm not sure it's
| as reliable as hearing them repeatedly scratching the litterbox.
| If you are out during the day and come home, with a litterbox you
| still notice the pee clumps to get an idea of how much they've
| peed - unlike with a toilet.
|
| One aspect where the toilet may actually be better is that you
| _might_ be able to spot blood easier in the water.
|
| I also wanted to train my first cat to use the toilet, until he
| suffered from a urinary blockage as a kitten. If he'd been using
| the toilet, I likely wouldn't have noticed that anything was
| wrong until it was far too late. Blockage is more likely in male
| cats, and it is _not_ an uncommon problem. It is already far too
| easy to not notice if a cat is blocked if you're not careful, and
| it doesn't take long at all to become life threatening. I believe
| a toilet would only exacerbate this risk.
|
| If I see blood in the litter, no clumps, or clumps that are
| smaller than usual (or heck, even much bigger than usual), I know
| to pay extra attention to my cat and either book a vet
| appointment or go to the emergency room. It's allowed me to catch
| bouts of infection, crystals, and idiopathic cystitis early (all
| of which he is now more prone to after his initial urinary
| problems). A cat's kidneys and urinary system can also be
| impacted by stress levels, with unexplained straining and bladder
| inflammation thought to be in some cases caused by stress. Having
| them pee in a toilet in my opinion decreases visibility of a very
| important and sensitive health factor.
| fhe wrote:
| I'd just want to add that, I in general don't think it's a good
| idea to train cats to learn behaviors that are unnatural for
| them. One could say that, eating processed cat food and living
| with humans are already unnatural, which is true. But to the
| extent that's possible, I want to provide my cats the freedom
| to act as naturally as possible.
|
| On this particular cat toilet training trick: cats are in fact
| quite particular about litterbox -- where it's positioned, how
| safe it feels inside it, how it smells. A human toilet is
| decidedly an unnatural setup for cats, and who knows what can
| happen. Maybe the cat learns to use it but constantly feels
| anxious about it (e.g. slipper surface). Maybe it will avoid
| pooping until it gets really uncomfortable. All of these can't
| be good for its health.
| yholio wrote:
| The modern housecat is just about as natural as a naked human
| living wild in the forest. It has been selectively bred to
| perfection for cuteness and sociability with low aggression
| and diminished survival abilities. Some can't even tolerate
| the natural climate where their owners live.
|
| I totally support "healthy", but natural, what is natural for
| a species that has evolved to use intelligence to prevail
| over the natural world (in this case, the intelligence of
| their owners, but still)?
|
| No my friend, our purpose on this earth is to co-evolve the
| most unnatural cat to the point where they are ready to take
| over as the dominant inteligent species of this side of the
| galaxy.
| wwwwewwww wrote:
| "The modern housecat is just about as natural as a naked
| human living wild in the forest. It has been selectively
| bred..."
|
| I think it would be better to say "The modern housecat is
| just about as natural as a modern human living in a modern
| house". Both species adapted to modern human environment.
| causality0 wrote:
| I think you're ignoring the ways the toilet is better than
| the litter box. For example, it's also unnatural for a cat to
| have to smell its old poop and also touch it while burying
| new poop. A toilet removes that source of stress and
| potential disease.
| garblegarble wrote:
| Although it's worth noting that there are other non-toilet
| alternatives as a middle-ground that also let the cat
| perform natural burying behaviour without there being old
| poop in there - like a self-cleaning litter box.
| InvaderFizz wrote:
| I have a cat genie, it's great, if you put it in a well
| ventilated outdoor space, have it run automatically after
| every time the cat uses it, and toss in a handful of
| citric acid every week to let it clean itself. Then every
| three months, take the whole thing apart and pressure
| wash everything.
|
| It's better than scooping litter every day, by a factor
| of 3-5x. But it's not magical and wonderful.
| hedora wrote:
| The failure mode on self cleaning litterboxes is worse
| than normal litterboxes or toilets.
|
| We had one, and, as usual, got busy and forgot to clean
| it. The end result was a spotless, odor free and empty
| self-cleaning litterbox (all the litter had been auto-
| removed) and a male cat with a urinary tract infection.
| metabagel wrote:
| You're exactly right. Cats have an instinctual urge to bury
| their poop so other animals won't smell it. The toilet is
| counter to their instincts.
|
| Also, if a cat falls in the toilet, it's traumatizing, and
| they may start pooping and peeing in other places which you
| don't want.
| ModernMech wrote:
| > One aspect where the toilet may actually be better is that
| you _might_ be able to spot blood easier in the water.
|
| One thing that's cool is there are special cat litters now that
| change color when blood is present.
| oneplane wrote:
| This is one of those things I thought of as well. A pet
| generally won't know how healthy it is or if it feels unwell
| why it does so. What you can do as a pet owner is monitor
| behaviour and check what goes in (food, water) and comes out
| (poop, urine, vomit) as a basic indication of health.
| dawnerd wrote:
| And if you have a male cat it's important to also make sure
| they're getting enough liquid, especially if they're on a dry
| food diet. My cat almost died while I was out of town because
| he stopped drinking from stress I guess and was only on a dry
| diet. Now they're on a can diet and healthy.
| drakonka wrote:
| Very good point. My cats get wet only. The male I mentioned
| in my other comment is underweight since he never regained
| his full appetite after his urinary issues, so at some point
| I started allowing him to snack on a bit of dry food at night
| to get his weight up. A month or two later he developed
| urinary problems. This ended up being caused by crystals in
| his bladder, which are associated with not taking in enough
| liquids. Now, I'd rather he be a little skinny than risk that
| again. Water fountains help, but aren't enough.
|
| There is an issue of Royal Canin Veterinary Focus that
| focuses on lower urinary tract disease in cats and dogs:
| https://vetfocus.royalcanin.com/en/-/media/vet-focus/en-
| us-p...
|
| There are interesting sections on Feline Idiopathic Cystitis
| and blockage, which talk about water management as well. On
| page 23, there is a table called "Table 1. Clinical features
| of cats diagnosed with cystitis with (n = 8,220) or without
| (7,862) concurrent pyuria in 2012."
|
| At the bottom of the table are a few rows on diet. ~3.5% of
| cats in the sample were on a canned-only diet. ~19.2% were on
| a mix of dry and canned food. 77.3% were on a dry-only diet
| (percentages slightly varied for those with pyuria).
| xivzgrev wrote:
| Yep. My cat was dry only, and almost died from a blockage.
| He's been wet only, and no issues, since
|
| When I hear other cat owners feeding only dry I tell them
| this. They don't usually want to change, likely believing
| that wouldnt happen to their cat, but at least they're
| informed.
| xivzgrev wrote:
| My cat got blocked one time. It just happened one day. Came
| home from work and he was meowing painfully, and kept doing it.
| So I took him to ER.
|
| Did you notice warning signs in days prior? I typically don't
| check litter every day so possible I missed subtle signs
| earlier
| drakonka wrote:
| Sorry to hear about your cat. I hope he's OK now.
|
| It was really unfortunate because mine was blocked after an
| otherwise routine surgery, after which the vet warned us that
| it might take him longer to go to the litter box! So at first
| we thought nothing of it and thought him not having peed yet
| was normal post-surgery recovery.
|
| But I did learn to recognize the signs after that, since they
| kept sending him home while he was still blocked. In general,
| the potential signs of a blockage are pretty much the same as
| potential signs of infection or other urinary issues. I
| suggest watching/listening for the following:
|
| * Frequent trips to the box. If a cat keeps going in
| repeatedly, something might be up. They either can't get pee
| out, or have some irritation that is making them need like
| they need to keep going to the box. This can start with just
| going a bit more frequently than you're used to and escalate
| to stepping in and out of the box every few minutes. Note
| that this can also be a sign of constipation, which can also
| be bad (but tends to be less critical than urinary blockage
| in the beginning). Usually cats have a different stance when
| they pee vs poop, so you can kind of tell what they're trying
| to do if you pay attention. Sometimes, if they keep straining
| to pee and can't, they might actually resort to trying to
| poop instead, which won't help and just keep them coming back
| to the box.
|
| * Low or no volume. These frequent trips, in case of
| blockage, will result in no pee coming out, or maybe just
| drops. This _could_ also mean that the cat simply has no pee
| left in them and it is some other urinary tract irritation
| causing them to feel like they keep having to go, but that is
| really only safe to assume if you've _seen_ them pee a good
| amount recently. Usually when they are just irritated,
| they'll still get _something_ out when they go back in. If
| when you get home all you find is abnormally tiny clumps or
| drops, it can be a sign that something is off.
|
| * Vocalization. If they are vocalizing more than usual,
| especially in or around the box. It can be a sign of pain
| (this sounds like what you used to catch it, which is great).
|
| * Blood in the urine. I know it can be hard to see with many
| litters, but sometimes you can spot blood either in the
| urine, drops on or around the box, or even on the cat's fur
| after they go. This is more a sign of bladder irritation than
| blockage, but the two often go hand in hand, and one can
| progress to the other, so it's time to see a vet.
|
| * Trying to go outside of the box. If they are in pain or
| unable to pee in the box, they may resort to trying to find
| another spot. If you find your cat peeing or trying to pee
| outside of the box when they're otherwise litter trained,
| something might be wrong.
|
| * Repeated licking of nether regions, especially coupled with
| one or more of the above. If they are in pain or irritated,
| they may keep licking and fussing with the area.
|
| * Eventually, not going to the box at all. The bladder gets
| distended, and nerves are damaged. This is very dangerous.
| The bladder is full, but the cat loses the ability to feel
| when they need to pee. My vets have said that as a rule of
| thumb, if a cat does not pee at least once in 24 hours, to
| get to the emergency vet asap.
|
| There can also be cat-specific, individual signs of
| irritation or pain that you'd know best as the owner. For
| example, I noticed when my cat has trouble comfortably peeing
| he will start drinking a lot more water. I am not sure if
| this is common for all cats, but it's one thing I keep an eye
| on: if he keeps going between the box and the water bowl, I
| know something is up.
|
| In general, a lot of it is quite individual. Cats do
| sometimes just change up their pee schedule. I might come
| home and find that mine hasn't peed at all when he normally
| would, but that doesn't mean I need to rush to the emergency
| just based on that one thing. I judge by how he looks, how
| he's acting, and just keep an extra eye out for any
| additional signs (and pay attention for when he pees next).
|
| We can also learn to feel the fullness of the bladder through
| the abdomen, and many cat owners (especially those dealing
| with disabled cats) do. Apparently it's quite easy, and my
| vet would do this pretty regularly when needed, but I
| unfortunately never managed to get the hang of it myself
| (though I still try sometimes if I suspect something is
| wrong).
| fullstop wrote:
| Prior to this there were likely signs. *
| Frequent litter box visits * Excessively grooming "down
| there" * And finally the yowling that you heard
|
| Sometimes they will attempt to pee in sinks or hidden places
| which are not the litter box. One of mine reacts poorly to
| stress and can't eat kibble or she gets a UTI, and I've
| gotten very good at identifying when something is going to be
| a problem before it gets out of control.
| zwilliamson wrote:
| When it comes to cat health and preventative care a lot can be
| gleaned from the book The Forever Dog (https://foreverdog.com).
| There is a lot we can do as care takers to prevent health
| issues and not just monitor for them.
|
| The summary of the book is "Eat less, eat fresher, and move
| more and more often"
|
| Perhaps with cats the movement part maybe not be as applicable,
| but the eating fresher (no processed foods) and eating less
| would make a huge difference it a cats life. Maybe someone will
| write Forever Cat?
| drakonka wrote:
| I think that largely makes sense, but also think the
| _biggest_ jump in cat food quality isn't so much the jump to
| freshness but the jump away from dry. Cats who eat primarily
| dry food are at risk of chronic dehydration. They simply do
| not end up drinking enough water to compensate for the low
| moisture content in their food[0]. Water fountains help
| entice some cats to drink more, but in the end it's usually
| not enough to compensate.
|
| For my cats, I usually opt for variety. I try to pick high
| protein wet food of different types, including nutritionally
| balanced raw, within their individual requirements and
| tastes. At the same time, I follow my vet's advice and always
| have urinary wet food handy. Usually they get one pouch of
| urinary food that helps prevent and dissolve a certain type
| of bladder crystal in addition to normal wet food each day.
|
| [0] https://www.waltham.com/news-events/nutrition/cats-can-
| benef...
| praptak wrote:
| OTOH it might be easier to take a urine sample from a toilet
| trained cat. For litter trained cats you need to use special
| non absorbent litter or leave the cat at the vet so that they
| collect the sample themselves.
| drakonka wrote:
| That can be true, but I think you can also get the cat used
| to sample collection by hand as they go into the box.
|
| I've had to collect so many samples over the years, and the
| easiest way is to hold a measuring cup/spoon under the cat
| when he/she goes into the box and squats. When I hear mine go
| to the box, I just walk over slowly and chill in the area
| (act casual). Then, when he looks committed and gets into
| position, I squat next to the box and hold the cup under him.
| You can collect a good amount of very clean urine this way
| (of course not sterile like cystocentesis, but for most
| purposes it is perfectly fine). It takes some practice to
| find the right place to hold the spoon depending on your
| cat's anatomy, as you have to estimate where the pee will end
| up going.
|
| In another part of this thread I mentioned having a Litter
| Robot, which this technique is not really possible with. I
| bring out a backup open litterbox when I need to collect a
| sample, for easy access.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| My extended family has always had a ton of cats, and I don't
| remember the last one that was seriously ill without it being
| due to old age. Most of them were "outdoor cats" in a small
| country town.
|
| Is there something in modern cats' diet / habits that makes
| them more susceptible to disease? These concerns read like
| hypochondria, coming from this background.
| trhway wrote:
| >Is there something in modern cats' diet / habits that makes
| them more susceptible to disease?
|
| The cheap supermarket dog/cat food can hardly be called a
| food. It is an epitome of bottom line optimization. Grain and
| the "by-products" - frequently the 1st/2nd ingredients -
| which is hides/hooves/beaks/horns/etc. flooded with
| industrial chemicals back at the China's giga-meat-factories
| and powdered.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I don't know about the indoor/outdoor thing w.r.t. UTI
| incidence in particular. But for those of us not living in
| small country towns, outdoor cats are not generally a viable
| option so it's all about giving them the best indoor life.
|
| Generally speaking, indoor cats tend to live much longer.
| Generally they make it well into their teens. Of course it
| all depends I guess. Indoor/outdoor cats living in an ideal
| rural situation probably have the happiest and healthiest
| lives of all. (Although, of course, depending on local fauna
| they may eat a lot of birds, so there's that cost to consider
| too...)
| reaperducer wrote:
| Since we're trading anecdotes...
|
| My experience with six cats over the last 25 years is that
| the outdoor cats lived much longer and got sick less than my
| inside cats.
|
| I have no idea why, but i don't think it's diet, because
| they've all eaten the same food.
| 3np wrote:
| Just like with humans, exercise is a major factor in
| health. Outdoor cats generally get way more.
|
| Another factor for this observation (that I also made)
| could be genetics - generally "pure-bred" (aka more likely
| to suffer from disease linked to genetic factors) are more
| likely to be strictly-indoors while outdoor cats are more
| often "mongrels".
| reaperducer wrote:
| In my case, they were all mongrels, except for the
| current one, who is an indoor cat. Fingers crossed!
| mdpye wrote:
| > they've all eaten the same food
|
| Heh, that's what you think...
|
| Ever watched one of those lighthearted documentaries where
| they GPS tag and attach cameras to a whole neighbourhood's
| cats? They mostly wandered around eating each other's food
| :D
| drakonka wrote:
| I wouldn't call something hypochondria just because I
| personally haven't had to deal with it. It's really great
| that you've never had this issue and I hope you never have
| to, but if we're going by anecdotes, there are several in
| this very thread from people who have.
|
| Diet can be a contributing factor, yes. I mention it a bit in
| this comment, with a link to a journal issue that talks about
| these issues in dogs and cats, including some information on
| frequency and contributing factors:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29864189
| mancerayder wrote:
| Doesn't a urinary infection cause that?
|
| For an indoor cat, I strongly suspect there's a problem with
| canned food sometimes. When I had a cat a long while back,
| every so often you'd open a can of cat food and it'd have
| worms, or the cat would (after being extremely excited as you
| were opening the can), sniff and propel himself away from the
| food. You'd look and notice it was off (like it had something
| crawling in it).
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| Wait, cat food is not pasteurised and sealed in the tin?
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Lol! Wholesome tutorial!
|
| Reminded me of how we tend to forget that even the most
| outstanding people are just as ordinary as we are. When at home,
| legendary jazz musician Charles Mingus is just an ordinary guy,
| training his cat to use the toilet.
| dbreunig wrote:
| The tone and approach here is exactly what I'd expect from a man
| whose chief complaint as a band leader is that jazz musicians
| interpret his music too much and classical musicians follow it
| too literally.
| jelling wrote:
| That's cat's balance is the key here. I tried this with a
| hairless cat - whom also have very little in the way of whiskers
| - and the poor thing just didn't have the balance to handle the
| final steps.
| saluki wrote:
| Our neighbor when I was growing up had a cat that would use the
| toilet and flush. I was amazed as a kid.
|
| Not sure I want to share the bathroom with our cats.
|
| We just got a litter robot last week it's pretty amazing. We set
| it up in a hall closet to get the two litter boxes out of the
| laundry room. It should pay for itself in 3-4 months by using
| less litter than our two traditional litter boxes (yesterdays
| news litter).
| jakebasile wrote:
| I've been looking at getting an automatic cleaning litter box
| for a while now. Would you mind recommending the type that you
| bought if you are so happy with it?
| Zircom wrote:
| Just make sure you're cats never see it turn itself on, two
| of my three cats refuse to use it after watching it cycle and
| I'm back to having a separate box for them that I clean
| everyday, honestly thinking it selling it if I can talk
| anybody into buying a used poopbox
|
| For the one cat though it is definitely great, he's kinda
| fearless though so your cats may not quite be brave enough to
| face the beast everytime they go to the bathroom.
|
| Edit - my name is Zircom, I have a litter robot 3 for the
| record, and I recommend it as long as you don't have scaredy
| cats.
| drakonka wrote:
| I've had a Litter Robot for nearly a year and also really
| like it (wrote a more detailed review here[0]), although it's
| definitely not perfect. Mine is the Litter Robot 3 with the
| WiFi functionality (lets me keep an eye on how often they go
| even when I'm not home). I do believe the price isn't worth
| it for _most_ people, but do not regret the purchase.
|
| [0] https://liza.io/litter-robot-3-review/
| jakebasile wrote:
| Thanks for the review. Would you say it cuts down on smell?
| That is my biggest issue with cat ownership and I've been
| looking for ways to further reduce it (beyond better
| litter, baking soda, etc.).
|
| Edit: Thanks for all the replies. I am still on the fence
| about it, and may try further options to reduce the smell
| (at least enough so that a cat-person like myself can live
| with it ;))
| jeromegv wrote:
| My air purifier is next to our cat litter and there's no
| smell at all. I strongly recommend one (on top of helping
| with allergies, dust, covid, etc..)
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| I wonder if you mean "no smell to a cat person" or if you
| mean no smell to everyone else. Because I've been in
| enough cat people's places to know the former is a real
| thing.
| natdempk wrote:
| I've done the air purifier thing as well, paired with
| some unscented litter like Dr. Elsey's Ultra Litter and
| it genuinely doesn't smell most of the time, unless
| they've recently used the box or its not cycling due to
| being full.
| drakonka wrote:
| Would you mind sharing what air purifier model you use
| next to your Litter Robot?
| natdempk wrote:
| Sure, I use a Coway Airmega AP-1512HH set to low
| permanently. It doesn't move a ton of air on the low
| setting, but it is very quiet and the size fits pretty
| well next to the robot. I think getting something quiet
| is key as to not spook your cats, as one of mine hates
| the sound of loud white-noise-ish sounds.
|
| I will say I think this one works well, but you could
| likely find something cheaper because you don't need to
| much air circulation for a litter box. I just happened to
| already have this one.
| drakonka wrote:
| Thanks. I have read good things about that model, but
| don't think it's available in my country. But I was
| looking into a Coway Storm AP-1516D last year, and didn't
| end up pulling the trigger since there were just too many
| options to choose from. This reminds me to look into them
| again.
| Nursie wrote:
| We use a system called ezi lockodour here in Australia. I
| believe the US name is Purina TidyCats.
|
| Made a huge difference to the smell when we switched.
| dotBen wrote:
| Another Litter Robot owner here (we are onto our second
| one) and I feel it does cut down on the smell.
|
| The litter won't stay in the open part for more than
| 10-25 minutes and then it is cycled into the drawer which
| is relatively contained and has a charcoal filter on it.
|
| We have two cats and end up changing the drawer every 2-3
| days. I have a friend who manages not to change the
| drawer for a week and I do think it starts to smell then.
|
| The main benefits are that we don't have to tend to the
| litter tray that often and when we do we only need to
| pull out the plastic trash bag, tie it up and replace
| with a new one. I also think it uses a lot less litter as
| we never have to fully change it out like you do with
| normal cat boxes.
|
| It's an expensive item but I think it's definitely worth
| it. Get a reconditioned one for $50-100 less as they are
| perfectly clean and they will get messy pretty quickly
| anyway.
|
| We pair ours with Nature's Miracle cat litter which has
| baking soda and other deodorizer in it.
| mey wrote:
| It does not cut down more on the smell. Since the waste
| is basically sifted out quickly to the lower try and not
| left buried by the cat, it can get smelly. Litter type,
| cat, and how often you chant the lower tray will change
| that, but overall, I would not put it in a living space.
| drakonka wrote:
| I wouldn't say it cuts down on smell, unfortunately. In
| fact, it has the potential to make it worse, since the
| waste is gathered in a bin for longer periods of time (as
| opposed to flushable litter in a normal box).
|
| There is a carbon filter that sits on one end of the tray
| to help minimize scent, but it's not very effective in my
| experience. I'm currently experimenting with putting
| various nicely-scented objects in that tray, in front of
| the filter (like those little scent blocks you can hang
| on the side of your toilet bowl, for example).
|
| The scent will also largely depend on the cat's digestive
| system. My cats tend to not have very smelly or soft
| feces so it's not bad at all, but if one of them gets
| diarrhea you bet I'm emptying that litter bin right away.
| Likewise, if a guest is coming over I'd probably suggest
| emptying the litter bin beforehand just in case.
|
| I know you already know of better litter and baking soda
| tricks, but there is a powder you can purchase and
| sprinkle into litter, which gives off a fresh scent. I
| found using it also helps, as does sprinkling some of it
| into the bottom of the litter tray itself (into the
| litter waste bin). I don't have the name of it on hand,
| but I think there are a few brands out there that are
| pretty common.
|
| Edit: the _majority_ of the time there is no smell I can
| easily detect until I open the tray to remove the
| garbage. But as someone else mentioned, no smell to a cat
| person may not be a reliable gauge.
| natdempk wrote:
| One thing I've done to help with the smell is put a
| smaller air purifier on low next to it running
| continuously. This really helps a lot in my experience
| compared to having nothing. It can still smell a bit if
| the robot is full and nothing is cycling or one of the
| cats has just used it, but other than that there is
| largely no smell. The other thing that helps a lot is
| changing the carbon filter on the robot on a regular
| basis, maybe every couple or few months, since once that
| goes a lot more smell leaks out.
| garblegarble wrote:
| I'm not the person you're asking but we use the same brand,
| the Litter Robot 3 (without wifi) and think it's great. Both
| our cats took to it very quickly.
|
| It does require a small amount of maintenance to keep it
| running smoothly. Separating and cleaning the main pieces
| every 2-3 months is all I do (nothing that requires tools to
| disassemble, but a good 15 minutes of cleaning+vacuuming)
|
| Our cats were always very stinky with traditional litter
| boxes (even on different diets) and the litter robot did cut
| that down significantly... but what made a huge difference
| was using a litter that was a combination of clay, activated
| carbon and silica granules (we use Biokat's Diamond Care
| Classic - it is expensive, previously I manually mixed in
| carbon+silica into cheaper clay litter with moderate
| success).
|
| We only have one cat now, and only need to replace the bag
| once every 10 days, but even so I can't detect any cat smell
| in the house (and am quite sensitive to it) nor can any of my
| friends/family -- but they all have cats so there may well
| still be some base level of smell that all our noses are
| innured to.
|
| To a sibling commentor's warning, neither of our cats are
| worried about it cycling (in fact, our sphynx races over to
| watch it cycle any time she hears the motor start up). It has
| a weight sensor as well as a pinch sensor to prevent the cat
| being injured in case they jump in while it's running -- so
| far nobody's tried to, but good to know it's there.
|
| I found it quite good for our older cat, too: one of our cats
| had a bit of arthritis in later life and needed the set of
| steps to comfortably get up and into the litter box which
| does increase the already pretty significant footprint of the
| device. It also has an automatic low light that comes on when
| it gets dark that helped her get around when her eyesight was
| failing.
|
| A sibling comment noted that it's pretty expensive and may
| not be worth the cost - I think that's probably true,
| although I've no regrets (and even bought a second one)
| because of the amount of scooping it's saved me.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| Our cats were always very stinky with traditional litter
| boxes
|
| As a compromise solution I've had pretty good luck placing
| air filters next to the litter box. The commonly
| recommended ones (Coway, Winix) are $100-$150 on sale and
| have both particulate filters and charcoal odor filters.
| Filter costs are ~$25/year and electricity cost is ~$5-10
| per month.
|
| That's probably more expensive over a large enough number
| of years relative to a robo litter box, but you're also
| removing other indoor allergy causes as well, so it's doing
| other work which may be beneficial.
|
| Also the fan noise from the filters is very gentle;
| actually a plus for many.
| mey wrote:
| I have a litter robot. Takes normal kitchen trash bags and is
| able to keep up with two adult male cats. Very happy with it,
| had it for over two years. I think the cats would mutiny if
| they went back to a normal box.
|
| It does take a little learning. You have to learn how to not
| overfill it. How to do a full break down clean of it (not
| hard just more involved). It doesn't keep the smell down
| significantly more than a traditional litter box imo.
|
| Pretty sure ours paid for itself in litter savings in about a
| year.
| xattt wrote:
| Who does the flushing?
| analog31 wrote:
| I've heard that if the cat learns to flush, it will flush your
| toilet all day because it's fun.
| swader999 wrote:
| Kids do this and cats are smarter.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| You could technically automate it. Training the cat is the hard
| part. Detecting that a cat (or frankly, anything else) is on
| the toilet is easy with some electronics.
| ratww wrote:
| Some cats learn to flush, which is absolutely nuts, but it
| happens.
| donkarma wrote:
| apparently the cat can learn to flush if the cat hits it by
| accident
| swader999 wrote:
| My cat learned how to turn on the tap nearly wrecking the
| well. Now he's an outdoor cat. Seems happier too.
| Pixelbrick wrote:
| http://achewood.com/index.php?date=06232003
| k__ wrote:
| I'm so happy my cat goes outside to do her business.
|
| My last cat used a litter box and when she got old and demented,
| she would sometimes sleep in the box, so I had to clean her
| regularly.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| Poor baby! Thank you for taking such good care of her into her
| old age.
| k__ wrote:
| Yes, her last year was heartb breaking. But at least she had
| a few good days every week until the end.
|
| Seeing that she was able to steal some food from a table when
| I was out of a room when she was already blind and deaf
| warmed my heart.
|
| 20 years I had her, good times.
| sesellis wrote:
| There are commercially available kits to do this that are
| concentric rings that work very well. The kit coupled with
| flushable litter makes it very easy to toilet train a cat.
|
| However, I can confirm you will get into a bathroom stare down
| with your cat every once in a while.
| ratww wrote:
| You have to teach the cat to close the door.
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