[HN Gopher] Great AA Alkaline Battery Test (2016)
___________________________________________________________________
Great AA Alkaline Battery Test (2016)
Author : ValentineC
Score : 137 points
Date : 2022-01-12 18:15 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (goughlui.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (goughlui.com)
| bentcorner wrote:
| > _This can be implemented basically with a fixed value of
| resistance, but because of the way resistance interacts with
| voltage, it's actually very gentle on the battery. As the battery
| voltage falls, the current falls accordingly, so the delivered
| power falls even further. For modern appliances, this type of
| loading is not common._
|
| Dumb question - is it at all possible to design a modern device
| which operates this way? (As battery voltage falls, device
| performance also falls? It's been a really really long time since
| my EE classes - are transistors just unable to operate this way?)
| gruez wrote:
| > It's been a really really long time since my EE classes - are
| transistors just unable to operate this way?)
|
| Yeah, most CPUs nowadays have dynamic frequency adjustment to
| maximize battery life. Lower frequencies also mean transistors
| can operate at lower voltages, so by reducing the operating
| frequency, you can reduce the voltage and therefore power draw
| on your battery.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| Some LED flashlights with multiple brightness modes will drop
| to low brightness mode when cell voltage falls below a certain
| point.
| orev wrote:
| Apple did this with iPhones, where the CPU throttles itself
| when the battery can't keep up with the peak demand anymore.
| They got sued for it (mostly because they didn't tell anyone
| and people bought new phones when the old ones started
| mysteriously slowing down).
| dragontamer wrote:
| Have you ever used an old flashlight in the 80s or 90s?
|
| As AA charge fell, the light got dimmer and dimmer. Today, we
| have devices that do the exact _OPPOSITE_, pulling the last
| bits of electricity out of the cells through boost-converters
| or whatnot (boost converters existed back then, but weren't as
| efficient or cheap as today).
|
| Consumers demanded consistent and reliable performance no
| matter if at full-battery charge or nearly empty. People
| preferred their devices to suddenly "shut off".
| silisili wrote:
| On the subject of AA alkaline batteries - one thing I learned a
| long time ago somehow I'll share that people seem amazed by is
| that you can approximate their charge by bouncing them on a hard
| surface. Drop an AA battery negative/flat side down an inch or
| two onto a hard surface like a counter or table. A new battery
| will just land and thud. A dead battery will bounce
| repeatedly(you'll hear it more than see it).
| iancmceachern wrote:
| I wonder what phenomenon is driving this. A spent battery
| weighs more?
| dragontamer wrote:
| The physical chemistry changes as a battery is spent. The
| internal chemicals are being converted from one molecule into
| another.
|
| Its not surprising to me that the two different chemicals
| have different physical properties. (Elasticity, density, who
| knows? They're a fully different chemical once the electrons
| move around)
| ChrisLomont wrote:
| Almost all the mass of a molecule is in atom nuclei, and
| these masses do not change under any battery chemistry I've
| ever seen.
|
| The only way to change mass appreciably is to add or remove
| atoms from the interior of the battery.
| exhilaration wrote:
| Previously discussed on HN:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21693423
| ztakeo wrote:
| Here's a good reference https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/artic
| lelanding/2015/ta/c5ta0...
| thescriptkiddie wrote:
| IIRC alkaline batteries produce some kind of gas while being
| discharged. When the battery is dead it is probably inflated
| like an unopened soda can, assuming it hasn't leaked.
| jandrese wrote:
| Isn't that what the vents holes are for?
| icodestuff wrote:
| IIRC, new batteries contain a semi-liquid electrolyte, which
| damps the bounce. When discharged, it becomes much more
| rigid, so the battery bounces. Compare dropping a gallon jug
| with ~a cup of water in it vs a cup frozen into ice to see
| what i mean.
| rytis wrote:
| I didn't know that, thanks for sharing! It seems to be a lot
| more civilised version of what I was doing for years - test by
| licking it... Can do it almost in one gesture: hold the battery
| between thumb and middle finger, lick index finger and touch it
| on one end of the battery, then lick the other. With some
| practice can get pretty good accuracy in 0.5-1.5V range. Bit
| barbaric though :)
| zh3 wrote:
| Let me leap in here to ding Duracell. They used to be my goto
| battery, but over the past few years (there was a hedge fund
| takeover, which IME rarely results in improvements to long-
| standing quality products) they've turned into liabilities -
| specifically, they are extremely prone to leaking once even a
| little bit discharged. To this day I open old kit and there can
| be duracells in there with "use by 2010" or even earlier dates
| which are fine, yet far newer batteries (e.g. bought in 2016 with
| expiries in 2022) leak like there's no tomorrow for the buyout
| team.
|
| Interested to hear of others experiences, or I've just been
| amazingly unlucky.
| jasode wrote:
| I came across this recent youtube comment[1] on why older
| batteries didn't leak. I don't know if it's correct but sharing
| it anyway:
|
| _> ceptimus 2 weeks ago (edited) >> Old alkaline batteries
| contained mercury, which made them resistant to leaking. The
| mercury was there to absorb the hydrogen gas, which builds
| internal pressure when the battery is used, causing them to
| leak. Newer alkaline batteries don't have mercury, because it's
| harmful to the environment when disposed. Unfortunately, the
| mercury free batteries leak much sooner - many of them long
| before their 'use by' date, even if you've never used them. Now
| you've replaced the batteries, you should check the camera more
| frequently. The modern rechargeable Ni-mh batteries, with a low
| self-discharge rate, are a good alternative: less likely to
| leak; but they're only nominally 1.2 Volts per cell instead of
| 1.5 volts, so some equipment won't work with them._
|
| EDIT... maybe there's more to it than just mercury because some
| low-effort googling[2] found that law prohibiting it in
| batteries was 1996 (~25 years ago). That doesn't match the
| timeline in the video because Alec says his old batteries (that
| didn't leak) were "use-by-date-2016". So maybe something else
| was different about the formulation in his Kirkland Signature
| batteries circa ~2008.
|
| [1]
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5s6xerRqVY&lc=UgztQzUKV5BJQ...
|
| [2]
| https://www.google.com/search?q=mercury+removed+from+alkalin...
| dv_dt wrote:
| After using Duracell for years for applications where I had to
| use alkaline, I recently had a set die with major leaks early,
| basically ruining a nice LED flashlight.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| They are expensive, but if you _need_ a primary battery, the
| non-rechargeable lithium batteries are great.
|
| My clock radio backup battery has probably been in there for
| >15 years.
| pomian wrote:
| That possibly explains the mysterious leaking battery problems.
| I remember that was an issue over twenty five years ago, which
| taught us not to leave batteries in devices. But then we
| accepted that they don't leak anymore. Then in the last five
| years or so, I keep finding gadgets that are destroyed, or
| almost so, from massive battery leaks. And alkalines don't seem
| to last very long, even though they are more expensive than
| they were.
| bxparks wrote:
| Yup, I hate Duracell batteries with a passion, they leak like a
| wet sponge and destroy electronics. I have converted most of my
| batteries to NiMH, but for the few that cannot be
| rechargeables, I will go out of the way to buy anything but
| Duracells.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| Happened to me. Duracell was my goto and now they leak. I don't
| know who to trust anymore. Thankfully I'm not a big battery
| consumer.
| klodolph wrote:
| As the article states, NiMH has gotten a lot better, and I
| now use that nearly everywhere instead of alkaline.
|
| It's nice not having to shop for batteries as often. I
| plugged in a charger behind the TV and batteries in a drawer
| under the TV. With the price point for Eneloop and Duracell
| batteries, you break even once you use a rechargeable for the
| fourth time.
|
| Part of the reason I have it in the first place is that the
| Roku 4's abysmal remote control goes through a set of
| batteries once every three months or so.
| tkojames wrote:
| Rumor is the Ikea batteries are rebranded Eneloop I have
| good luck with them.
| bxparks wrote:
| This website says that the IKEA brands are equivalent to
| the Eneloop Pro and Lite, but not the regular white ones:
|
| https://eneloop101.com/batteries/rewrapped-batteries/
|
| (Scroll/search to "IKEA")
| tecleandor wrote:
| Seems like at least the AA size, model LADDA 2450mAh. You
| can check they're made in Japan. Not sure about the 1900
| mAh, or the AAA size model, it might be a different
| brand.
| jq-r wrote:
| I have a lot of those white ones, and they work great for
| years now. They're a steal.
| Wistar wrote:
| Anyone know who makes the Costco Kirkland brand AAs?
| Moru wrote:
| Producer likely to change depending on who does them
| cheapest at the time.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| And sometimes varies by region.
| justjash wrote:
| Same. I pulled down my dad's old camera from the closet a few
| years ago and it probably hadn't been used since the 90s so the
| batteries were dead. Threw in some new Duracell batteries and
| played with it a bit before putting it away. Opened it a year
| or two later and the batteries had swelled and leaked
| everywhere. Had to use a pair of pliers to extract the swollen
| batteries from the battery compartment. Such a huge pain.
| jacobolus wrote:
| Duracell (the Mallory company) was bought by Dart in 1978, then
| by KKR in 1988, Gillette in 1996, Procter & Gamble bought
| Gillette in 2005, and Duracell was spun off and bought by
| Berkshire Hathaway in 2016. (source: Wikipedia)
|
| The company has been under large-scale finance / conglomerate
| management for more than 4 decades by now. I don't think there
| would have been any immediate change in battery quality circa
| 2016. Seems just as likely that corner cutting (assuming there
| is corner cutting; I have no insight) started before changes of
| ownership.
| JTbane wrote:
| Yep, have the same experience here. Even worse, I have devices
| which require batteries to be installed for memory retention,
| so I can't really remove all the alkalines to prevent leakage.
| jolux wrote:
| It wasn't a hedge fund, it was Berkshire Hathaway.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Happened for me too. They were very reliable batteries, now
| even new batteries leak if unused for a few years. They have
| ruined several remotes that I use sparingly, they should change
| their name to Ephemeralcell.
| Isthatablackgsd wrote:
| Mmm, I recalled I had Duracell (bought in 2018, expire date
| 2025) leaked in the battery compartment and I don't use the
| device. I just assumed the device was on standby mode and been
| draining the battery for a while which caused the leaking.
|
| That mean I have to be wary of Kirkland AA and AAA Batteries
| because they are made by Duracell. This is new for me and I'm
| surprised about Duracell, and I am not surprised about hedge
| fund/private equity. This is their MO.
| siegecraft wrote:
| Kirkland batteries were very leaky to the point where I
| didn't even finish using the pack I bought. I was quite
| dismayed since Kirkland usually has quality products.
| CWuestefeld wrote:
| More anecdata - I don't have anything to add regarding
| Duracell, but I've experienced the same thing you describe with
| Energizer.
|
| Recently I've leaned toward ACDelco batteries, which aren't on
| the test list.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| I had no idea ACDelco made anything other than car parts,
| huh.
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| Curious if you're having these leaks in Duracells you bought
| from a big box retail store, or shipped from Amazon.
| gerdesj wrote:
| You mean ... _gasp_ ... they might be fakes.
|
| The EU has a quality mark "CE" - Conformite Europeenne.
| Sometime the font is a bit wonky and it is alleged that CE in
| that case stands for China Export instead. I imagine that
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking#%22China_Export%22
| is policed quite carefully.
| brnt wrote:
| I get Duracell Industrials through my works office supplier,
| they also leak frequently.
| grumpyprole wrote:
| Completely agree. Duracell batteries have been leaking
| consistently for me, I've stopped buying them and actively warn
| others. They have destroyed various remotes, torches and an
| expensive camera flash after only a few years.
| jhallenworld wrote:
| But I think their NIMH batteries are good. Project Farm
| reviewed them, they were near the top. Of course I'm looking
| for good ones that are cheaper..
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| Anecdata, I recently had to replace batteries in several smoke
| alarms. 3 were Duracells and 2 were Rayovacs. All Duracells
| were from 2016/2017, i.e. assuming they were installed right
| away they lasted around 5 years. Rayovacs were from 2010 and
| 2011, despite both brands being rated for 5 years. It is
| possible that old Rayovacs were installed around same time as
| new Duracells and both lasted around same time, still makes for
| an interesting datapoint.
| bluGill wrote:
| Rayovac was bought out by Energizer not too long ago. They
| used to have a 10 year no leak guarantee, now they leak in a
| few months as I've learned the hard way.
| adenner wrote:
| Just as a bit of feedback, for safety equipment like smoke
| and CO detectors, standard guidance is to replace the battery
| at least once a year. (Unless you have an integrated 10 year
| battery that will last the life of the detector)
|
| If you live in an area that follows Daylight Savings time,
| doing it then is best so that you remember. Otherwise doing
| it during the Operation Edith drill for Fire Prevention Week
| is the next best.
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| Does this guidance apply to both battery backup and battery
| only situations?
| surge wrote:
| Someone did a test and found the Costco Kirkland batteries were
| not only as good as Duracell, but cheaper and lasted longer.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > there was a hedge fund takeover, which IME rarely results in
| improvements to long-standing quality products
|
| But think of the shareholder value that was created!
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20121120072539/https://www.newyo...
| bwbmr wrote:
| Same here, lots of leaks-- some family even has had a drawer
| full of unexpired Duracells leak. Myself, I've switched over
| completely to NiMh except when unsupported by the device to
| remove the change of leaks (Nest x Yale door lock in
| particular, which detected NiMh as low battery even when 90% of
| the cell capacity is remaining). AmazonBasics has been bad with
| leaks too.
|
| Edit: I have a Powerex MH-C980 and that has significantly made
| using NiMh easier. Before with a bundled Panasonic charger I
| had to charge everything in pairs, 4 max. The Powerex I can
| charge 8 cells individually, turbo charge if I'm in a rush, and
| see how much energy actually was used if something seems to be
| eating through a lot of batteries.
| Moru wrote:
| Just to clarify your point there: Charging batteries as pairs
| is what kills the rechargeable batteries. There is no way for
| the charger to keep track of both batteries at the same time
| so it just charges until both should be done.
|
| If one of them is bad, the charger will kill the other one
| too. If they are differently charged, it will kill one of the
| batteries and next time it will kill the other battery. (Kill
| as in make worse and worse until it finaly doesn't charge at
| all.)
|
| I have mostly stopped using rechargeable AA and AAA batteries
| because of the bad quality of the last ones I bought. They
| took 3-5 charges before dying with a good charger that does
| all batteries separately.
| MaKey wrote:
| Modern chargers are microprocessor controlled and are able
| to keep track of each battery individually.
| zackees wrote:
| Also, NiMH batteries can reverse charge and ruin
| themselves. This happens a lot when batteries are in series
| and the load will continue to run the batteries until 0
| voltage. The weakest battery will deplete first but then
| the other batteries will continue to pump current through
| until that weak battery reverses polarity and wrecks
| itself.
| reiichiroh wrote:
| Anyone remember the rechargeable alkaline brand "Pure Energy"
| available in Canada?
| moreati wrote:
| Note, this is from 2016.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Indeed, and one major change that's taken place in the last few
| years is that Energizers are now as leak-prone as Duracells.
| Likely true of other brands as well. The only way to win the
| alkaline battery game is not to play.
| colanderman wrote:
| Re: constant current appliances, most any "digital" appliance
| that uses a linear regulator (as opposed to a DC-DC converter)
| will exhibit such a load profile.
| zw123456 wrote:
| This is really amazing work, I found part 3 to be the most
| interesting https://goughlui.com/2016/12/19/great-aa-alkaline-
| battery-te... particularly the mwh/$ and other charts like
| capacity vs. weight etc.
| zwieback wrote:
| I know what I'll pick up next time I'm at IKEA.
| wrjensen wrote:
| I have had the same issues with Duracell leakage. I won't buy
| them any more, for exactly that reason.
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| There's also http://lygte-info.dk/ which has a ton of battery and
| charger tests. Definitely worth reading.
| walrus01 wrote:
| something that didn't exist in 2016 and does now, are AA
| batteries that are composed of an internal lithium ion cell, a
| DC-DC converter for 1.5VDC output to the end terminals, and
| internal 5V-USB to li-ion charge controller circuitry.
|
| With a USB port literally built into the body of the battery.
| They're more expensive, but can pay for themselves...
|
| https://www.amazon.com/AA-Batteries-ANVOW-Rechargeable-Capac...
|
| there are lots of other models if you search for "AA battery
| lithium ion USB"
|
| I would recommend these over anything that is NiMH based (memory
| effect) or needs a proprietary charger.
| intrasight wrote:
| I'd seen those in the past. Prices have come down. Am curious
| what are the benefits over NiMN.
| warpech wrote:
| Also see this impressive test:
| https://anrieff.net/batterytest/index_en.html (European market)
| zoomablemind wrote:
| Chiming in, I just recently was wondering how two seemingly equal
| by chemistry and size batteries just from different mfgrs could
| be so much incomparable by practical life-times.
|
| On so many occasions Panasonic or Sony (Japan made) batteries
| which come included with devices (like remote controls etc) would
| last years (!) (in some odd case I had Sony AA battery functional
| after more than a decade), yet any recent replacements from
| Duracel or Energizer the ones bought from a pharmacy would get
| exhausted within a year of similar use.
|
| There must be some difference there, just how to tell what is
| that?
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| There's very little reason to continue using Alkalines in the
| majority of cases. Rechargeable batteries both last longer, and,
| perhaps even more importantly, do not leak.
| johndough wrote:
| Rechargeable batteries (assuming NiMH and Ni-Cd) can still
| leak, but usually the leakage is less severe.
| Maarten88 wrote:
| As a test I recently bought a pair of Li-ion AA batteries, that
| are recharged through a micro USB connector in the battery. They
| are rated 2880 mWh and are advertised to provide a flat 1.5v
| during the whole discharge cycle (they have internal circuitry to
| convert from the native 3.7v).
|
| I wonder how those compare to my current rotating stock of Ni-MH
| ones that regularly stop working. Jury is still out, they were
| considerably more expensive though (something like EUR4.50 a
| piece).
| discreditable wrote:
| I have some similar Li-ion AA batteries for my Blink cameras.
| They work very well since the Blinks hate ni-mh batteries.
| Interestingly, these behave oddly in my camera speedlite. They
| can't seem to charge the flash, and the LCD flickers while on.
| My best guess is the charging the flash capacitor pulls more
| juice than the lithium batteries can handle. Thankfully, ni-mh
| work great.
|
| For your Ni-mh that stop working, if they won't charge you can
| sort of jump start them using a good battery and they'll charge
| again. Use some aluminum foil strips and touch the contacts
| between the batteries together for a few seconds. Positive to
| positive, negative to negative if I remember correctly.
| wmorein wrote:
| Apologies for the slightly off topic question but can anyone
| point me to the best test/comparison of Alkaline batteries vs.
| the new Lithium rechargeable ones? Older rechargeable AA and AAA
| batteries were terribly short lived and so mostly useless but I
| assume Lithium ones are much better?
| dragontamer wrote:
| > the new Lithium rechargeable ones
|
| Lithium isn't rechargable. (Lithium AA cells are very long-life
| but very expensive. One-time use. Lithium-ion are rechargable,
| but are 3.7 volts and completely violate the AA spec)
|
| NiMH is the chemistry for rechargable AA / AAA cells, since its
| 1.35V and "close enough" to the old 1.5V standard alkaline.
|
| > Older rechargeable AA and AAA batteries were terribly short
| lived and so mostly useless but I assume Lithium ones are much
| better?
|
| "Older", circa 00s NiMH chemistries had more energy storage
| (!!!). The issue was that circa 00s cells had a "self-
| discharge" problem, meaning they ran out of energy in just a
| few months (like 1 to 3 months).
|
| Panasonic solved the problem with "Low Self Discharge" cells,
| aka "Eneloop", which started to come out in the late 00s. This
| chemistry had much less capacity, but took over a year before
| the energy went bad.
|
| Its still NiMH chemistry, but just tweaked to focus on the
| self-discharge problem rather than energy-storage numbers /
| benchmarks.
|
| With Eneloop taking the market by storm (especially popular
| with XBox users, which used AA rechargables), other companies
| also came out with LSD chemistries. These days, almost
| everything you'll find is of the LSD-type.
| rabf wrote:
| You can get lithium ion rechargable AA batteries these days.
| They have a built in regulator to drop the voltage to 1.5V.
| Some of them even have micro usb ports on the side for
| charging.
| walrus01 wrote:
| there are even USB-C ones now for people who have less
| microUSB 5VDC charge cables hanging around their home...
| wmorein wrote:
| Ah, I totally misunderstood the current state of thing. But
| happy I asked -- thanks for all the info.
| Zak wrote:
| Here's one: https://lygte-
| info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAIndividua...
|
| Note the small link near the top titled "Comparator" if you
| want to generate comparison graphs between different batteries.
|
| 1.5V Li-ion rechargeable AAs are 3.7V cells with DC-DC buck
| converters attached to reduce the voltage. The main reason to
| use them is poorly-designed[0] devices that don't play well
| with NiMH. There may be some standby power drain from the
| electronics, and these are less compatible with voltage-based
| battery status monitoring than NiMH (NiMH gives a false low
| reading; bucked Li-ion gives a constant false full reading).
|
| Modern low-self-discharge NiMH has very good performance and
| shelf-life; the white Panasonic Eneloop is the gold standard in
| this category; the black ones have higher capacity, but wear
| out in fewer charge cycles.
|
| [0] Even if designing for alkaline without NiMH support isn't a
| design flaw per se, a device that doesn't work at 1.2V leaves
| about half the energy stored in an alkaline unused.
| tzs wrote:
| I've been a bit puzzled by the 1.5 V lithium AA batteries I see
| on Amazon. They say they are a constant 1.5 V all the way from
| 100% charged to 0% charged.
|
| With the battery presenting a constant voltage, wouldn't that
| make battery level displays useless? They rely on the voltage
| declining as the battery discharges. With a constant 1.5 V
| battery your device is going to say the battery is full right
| up until it suddenly stops.
|
| I'd expect that to get very annoying.
|
| Edit: I mean the 1.5 V lithium rechargeable AA batteries, like
| these: https://www.amazon.com/Deleepow-Rechargeable-Lithium-
| Batteri...
| grumbel wrote:
| The AA lithium-ion rechargeable are internally 3.7V, just
| like any other lithium-ion battery. They have a buck
| converter build-in that regulates that down to a constant
| 1.5V. Which can be handy in the handful of applications that
| don't deal with the 1.2V that NiMH provide. This does in turn
| make battery indicators indeed completely useless for many of
| them, as there is no detectable drop in voltage from the
| outside of the battery.
|
| However, there are newer ones take care of that and regulate
| the voltage down to 1.1V or so shortly before they run
| completely out of juice, so that the battery indicator can
| give a warning. Don't know how widespread that feature is
| yet, but it exists.
| dragontamer wrote:
| When in doubt, https://data.energizer.com/
|
| For Lithium chemistry:
| https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
|
| That's Energizer's Lithium of course, but you can expect that
| competitors probably perform "similarly".
|
| ------
|
| You can see that Energizer Lithium is 1.7V, slightly more
| than the 1.5V found in typical Alkaline cells. Today's
| electronics are pretty flexible however, and this may not be
| an issue. (In practice, AA-devices are usually designed for
| 1.35V NiMH, 1.5V Alkaline, and 1.7V... but there are some
| devices that have made 1.5V assumptions and _ONLY_ work with
| Alkaline)
| tzs wrote:
| Oops. I meant 1.5 V rechargeable lithium AA batteries, but
| left out "rechargeable". I've edited my comment to fix
| this.
|
| The 1.5 V rechargeable lithium batteries couple a
| rechargeable lithium cell with a buck converter to drop the
| voltage to 1.5 V.
|
| I haven't seen any that are sophisticated enough to use a
| variable output buck converter and drop the voltage as the
| underlying battery discharges.
| bradfa wrote:
| I've not seen AA or AAA sized lithium rechargeable batteries
| but modern low-self-discharge NiMH AA and AAA cell batteries
| are quite good today. The Panasonic Eneloop brand are generally
| widely available and good value for money. The AA size Eneloops
| are generally around 2100mAh and the AAA size around 900mAh.
|
| The only downside to modern NiMH batteries today seems to be
| finding a good and easy to use charger which will properly
| discharge and/or cycle the batteries without requiring a human
| to fiddle with it or understand charge rates and when to
| discharge the cell prior to charging.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > The only downside to modern NiMH batteries today seems to
| be finding a good and easy to use charger which will properly
| discharge and/or cycle the batteries without requiring a
| human to fiddle with it or understand charge rates and when
| to discharge the cell prior to charging.
|
| Only if you're really babying your NiMH cells is it
| worthwhile to do this.
|
| -----
|
| Frankly, my recommendation is to just throw away NiMH cells
| once they "go bad" (maybe a discharge/recharge cycle will
| save them, but they're really not that expensive).
|
| For most consumers out there, the $10 trickle charge that
| takes 8+ hours is superior, because they'll never cycle the
| NiMH cells to death. How many dozens of charge/recharge
| cycles do you need before there's an issue, even with the
| most primitive of charging strategies?
|
| When it takes months for a typical AA powered appliance to
| run out of NiMH charge, you realize that these "dozens" of
| charge/discharge cycles gives a life-span measured in _YEARS_
| for these NiMH cells.
|
| After 5 years, your NiMH cells might be on its last legs,
| needing a full discharge/recharge to get back to full power.
| Then and only then should you consider a $30 charger to
| perform this resurrection, except its probably more cost-
| efficient to just spend $2 and throw away the "old" cell.
|
| You'll need to throw away $20 worth of cells (ie: 10 cells)
| before your $30 fancy charger with discharge/recharge cycles
| + coulomb counting is superior to the $10 crap trickle
| charger. Maybe an RC-car enthusiast will get there (or an
| electronic-hobbyist), but that's a _LOT_ of charge/recharge
| cycles before you reach this point. Even with the inferior
| $10 trickle charge design.
|
| -------
|
| EDIT: That being said, spending $30, $40, or $50 on a higher-
| end charger because you find it "cool" is probably
| worthwhile. Coolness is a factor and we're not really talking
| about a lot of money here. But the $10 charger + buy new
| cells as needed approach is probably the most cost-effective
| strategy.
| jerlam wrote:
| There are AA and AAA sized lithium ion rechargables, but they
| won't work in anything that uses alkalines, since they
| provide a very different voltage (3.7V). They are usually
| called 10440 (AAA-sized) and 14500 (AA-sized).
|
| There are AA and AAA lithium _primary_ batteries that provide
| 1.5V and are in stores, but they cannot be recharged. They
| are far superior than alkalines in most ways, especially in
| the cold, but they cost drastically more, around $1-2 each.
| I've switched many of my low-drain applications to these
| batteries, where they are likely to outlast the device
| without leaking and destroying it.
| tzs wrote:
| There are now 1.5 V lithium rechargeable AAs. Here's a
| typical example [1], and there are a ton of others.
|
| I am almost certain they are implemented as 3.7 V lithium
| rechargeable batteries combined with a buck converter to
| get the 1.5 V output.
|
| I think they are relatively new. I don't recall noticing
| them a few years ago, which was the last time I was looking
| for rechargeable AA batteries.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/Deleepow-Rechargeable-Lithium-
| Batteri...
| rdl wrote:
| Duracell used to be really good about replacing devices if their
| batteries leaked. They screwed me a couple years ago and refused
| to replace something (a $50 apple keyboard, I think they gave me
| $10 for it?). I went from buying exclusively Duracell for
| alkaline to now just buying Energizer Lithium for everything
| where it isn't specifically contraindicated (very rare).
| zh3 wrote:
| Yes, I too have switched to Energizer - zero problems to date
| (switched from Duracell some years ago).
| Normille wrote:
| Check out 'Project Farm' on YouTube for a couple more in-depth
| tests of AA batteries
|
| TLDR:
|
| Made in Japan = GOOD Made in China = BAD
| Isthatablackgsd wrote:
| I love how he made it clear where it was assembled in. Every
| time he said "Made in USA with Global Components!", I was like
| yea more like made in China and rebranded in USA.
| csdvrx wrote:
| We need a new slogan: "rebranded in USA with a total lack of
| pride"
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Spoiler: they're all obsolete cost-reduced leaky pieces of shit.
| Use Eneloops or other NiMH rechargeables when possible, lithium
| primary cells otherwise.
|
| For a while you could avoid leakage by steering clear of Duracell
| in favor of Energizer, but that's no longer true. _Do not use
| alkaline AAs or AAAs in any equipment you want to keep._
| dragontamer wrote:
| I think the main issue with AA Alkaline is the proliferation of
| cheap low-self-discharge NiMH cells (aka: Eneloop, but also
| Energizer and other brands have good LSD NiMH available).
|
| A huge number of appliances seem to be designed for the 1.35V
| NiMH chemistry now. Perhaps a random TV-remote still prefers
| Alkaline but most seem to work fine with NiMH.
|
| -----
|
| Buying a pack of 20 NiMH cells and rotating your collection
| between charging / discharging states is cheap enough and
| effective. Its like you have "infinite" AAs since you can just
| keep recharging them.
|
| EDIT: A few years ago, Alkaline was still needed for TV remotes.
| But most Low-self-discharge NiMH now lasts for over a year
| without self-discharging away. Sure, not as good as Alkaline's
| 10-year life span but surely 1+ year lifespans is good enough for
| your TV remote? Its not that big of a hassle to reach recharge
| your NiMH once a year is it?
| djrogers wrote:
| That works well until you have kids running around... You going
| to put rechargeable cells in that Elena of Avalor wand your 4
| year old chases the dog with? And her talking unicorn? How
| about all the light sabers?
|
| In my experience, most of those types of toys don't go through
| batteries fast enough to justify a NiMH - they'd be in there
| for years. Invariably one of the kids will wind up mixing
| NiMH/LiIon/Alkaline in a toy, then the rechargeable winds up in
| the recycling bin a year later.
|
| Fast forward 3 years, and your "infinite" AAs are all gone,
| lost, or in near-permanent use somewhere you can never
| identify, and you've wasted all that money.
|
| In a few years when the kids move out and, and the number of
| battery powered gizmos is down to a manageable number, I'll try
| it again - until then, Amazon Basics AAA/AA are my friend.
| klodolph wrote:
| > A huge number of appliances seem to be designed for the 1.35V
| NiMH chemistry now.
|
| Yes, this is my experience too. One of the problems with NiMH
| is that appliances have helpful low-battery indicators which
| might light up as soon as you put NiMH cells in them, even
| though the appliance might continue working for a long time
| yet. A prime example is the Nintendo Game Boy Advance, which
| was released in 2001. The thing is powered by switching
| regulators which work fine with the lower voltages of NiMH
| cells!
|
| Newer appliances have solved these problems. For example, the
| Yamaha PSS-A50 (a fantastic, inexpensive portable keyboard) has
| an option to configure the low-battery indicator for alkaline
| or NiMH chemistry.
| ace2358 wrote:
| Totally agree! My Game Boy Advanced power light is green for
| about an hour then red for hours and hours on my eneloops.
| Also my Tascam field recorder has the option for alkaline or
| NiMH batteries.
|
| I still have some kitchen scales that won't work with NiMH
| though :(
|
| I've had my energiser batteries for almost 10 years and I've
| been rotating them through devices and the charger. Only
| recently have I begun to lose some cells.
|
| Time to upgrade them all to eneloops!!
| mikepurvis wrote:
| A quick googling reveals nothing, but I wonder if a simple
| hardware mod could address this-- basically, identify the
| voltage divider that's doing the measurement across the
| battery and change out one of the resistors so that it
| "sees" 1.35V as 1.5V.
|
| Most GBA battery mod posts are about people upgrading units
| to have built-in lithium packs, USB-C charge ports, etc
| etc.
| dragontamer wrote:
| Nope.
|
| Alkaline at 100% charge is 1.5V, at 50% charge it's 1.2V,
| at 0% charge it's .9V.
|
| NiMH at 100% charge is 1.35V, at 50% charge it's 1.35V,
| at 0% charge it's like 1.2V
|
| Totally different discharge curves. There's no simple
| circuit to convert between the two.
|
| -----
|
| EDIT: For hard data, see:
|
| Energizer NiMH :
| https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/nh15-2300gl1220.pdf
|
| Energizer Alkaline:
| https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91gl0320.pdf
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Oh yeah, I'm aware that for any other chemistry you need
| an actual coulomb-counter to get a proper gas gauge. My
| suggestion was more about the specific matter of
| suppressing an unwanted and inaccurate low battery light.
|
| Though maybe instead of trying to mod the circuit board,
| it would be easier to just disconnect the LED itself.
| dragontamer wrote:
| Honestly, Eneloop's advantage is overstated these days.
|
| Amazon Basics is likely an older Eneloop design for example
| (Panasonic makes eneloop, and seems to be making Amazon-
| Basic NiMHs). Energizer's "AA Recharge" series is also LSD
| these days, and probably easier to source than Eneloop.
|
| Eneloop deserves credit for shifting the market-perception
| on NiMHs a decade ago. But the other companies have caught
| on and have created well functioning, low-self-discharge
| chemistries of their own by now.
|
| -------
|
| I'd recommend "whatever is cheapest to ship to you".
| Energizer mostly for me, since I buy from Walmart / Home
| Depot (etc. etc.). A lot of people buy from Amazon, so
| "Amazon Basics" tacked onto your next order is probably a
| good idea.
|
| Eneloop commands a higher price and has some advantages.
| But I find that Energizer / Amazon Basics are both good
| enough for me.
| Gigachad wrote:
| One interesting solution I saw was batteries which stick a
| lithium battery + charge controller / voltage adapter inside
| the AA package so they can be used on any device.
| justinator wrote:
| Thankfully my not so new handheld Garmin GPS unit has a
| specific NiMH battery mode. I'm sure it just changes the
| algorthm slightly to work with the NiMH's discharge rate.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > Newer appliances have solved these problems. For example,
| the Yamaha PSS-A50 (a fantastic, inexpensive portable
| keyboard) has an option to configure the low-battery
| indicator for alkaline or NiMH chemistry.
|
| Different NiMH chemistries have slightly different voltage
| curves.
|
| Its an insidious problem. Different brands of NiMH just
| discharges in a "flat" manner, and all of them are at
| slightly different voltages. The electronics assume a voltage
| curve of Eneloop (typically, since Eneloop is the most
| popular NiMH brand), and other brands with their slightly
| different voltage-curves will throw it off.
|
| -----------
|
| I find it more important to locally source NiMH batteries
| (ie: what I can buy from Walmart / Home Depo down the street,
| rather than paying for Amazon shipping) rather than
| standardizing upon the Eneloops that everyone else is buying,
| lol.
|
| When I need a new AA cell, I buy it in my typical shopping
| runs, rather than waiting for shipping. I don't care enough
| about the voltage-curve problem to mass buy Eneloops yet. I
| largely just accept that the "low-battery" indicators are
| perpetually wrong.
| vzaliva wrote:
| I've switched to rechargables for home electronics years ago.
| It makes me feel better doing my share of lessening environment
| impact caused by disposable cells.
|
| One notable exception for which I am still buying alkaine
| batteries is the August Smart Lock. When using NiMH batteries
| it starts complaining about depleted battery in a week, while
| it still Ok and works for much longer. It was reported to them
| and they advised to us alkaine. This is very annoying because
| all they need to do is to fix the software which does the
| voltage check and generates annoying notifications to the
| users. Just a few lines of code (or maybe single constant)
| could have an immence environment impact.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| I think this explains the problem, though If you could
| configure the battery type, a software fix would work:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29910710#29912483
| zwieback wrote:
| I agree, rotating collection of charged cells is the way to go
| but:
|
| - need to establish a system of keeping track what's charged
|
| - train family to participate
|
| - train family to stop buying alkaline (mainly because in the
| alkaline recycling process you'll lose a lot of your eneloops)
|
| - grow immunity against complaints from family
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > - need to establish a system of keeping track what's
| charged
|
| This seems to be the root of all of your problems.
|
| Just charge all of the cells that aren't in use.
|
| When you take drained cells out of something, they go in the
| charger.
|
| Charger is always plugged in and right next to where you
| store the cells.
|
| If there's ever any question, just stick the cells in the
| charger. Don't bother playing all of the games to avoid
| "memory effect". It's much better with modern cells and not
| worth the hassle to try to work around.
| devnulll wrote:
| The good chargers hold 8-16 batteries, so there's always a
| set on there being charged. The chargers seem electrically
| smart and maintain the batteries well.
|
| This process works wonderfully. We've got ~100 Enloop's of
| various generations around the house in TV Remotes, XBox
| Remotes, Garage Door openers, and toys. This process works
| well.
| r00fus wrote:
| Not to mention a LOT of items now come with non-removable
| (mostly rechargeable) Li-Ion or NIMH batteries. Even small toys
| which used to require external batteries now come with it.
|
| So I still have a small stack of alkaline batteries from 2017 I
| haven't replaced or depleted. Hopefully that stack remains
| untouched for another few years as well.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Replying to boost this. We love Eneloop and have probably 40-50
| of them in the house at this point, between remote controls,
| gamepads, children's toys, fairy lights, bike lighting, tools,
| etc etc. They all get funneled through a La Crosse charger with
| a simple two-bin depleted/charged system.
|
| We've been buying them for years and I think I've only ever
| disposed of one that was unwilling to take a charge.
| lmilcin wrote:
| I design some electronics in my spare time. As a user, I
| strongly prefer to have a choice of using a rechargeable
| battery. It somehow does not feel right to throw out a toxic
| battery when I could have another type potentially hundreds of
| times over many years.
|
| It helps that there is a proliferation of quite powerful, low
| voltage, low power chips.
|
| Some of the devices I design have USB interface which gives
| another option of charging the battery while it is connected.
|
| I am currently working on a fully programmable mechanical
| USB/Bluetooth keyboard. It will work off of two AA NiMh
| rechargeable batteries and I plan these to be recharged any
| time the keyboard is connected to the computer.
| dragontamer wrote:
| I'd assume that 3-cells could lead to a simple trickle-charge
| circuit?
|
| 3*1.35 == 4.05V, which is pretty close to the 5V power that
| you take from the USB, seems like there's enough room to get
| a regulator to turn 5V into a simple charging circuit.
| There'd also be enough output to probably run 3.3V circuits
| with a simple regulator.
|
| 4*1.35 == 5.4V, which is beyond the capacity for 5V to charge
| (unless you got a boost-converter).
|
| ---
|
| 2-cells == 2.7V, which means you probably need a boost-
| converter to convert the battery-pack into something useful?
|
| Not that I'm the designer or anything, but I like discussing
| these issues :-) I haven't done any electronics since my
| college days.
|
| What voltage does the device operate at? The main cutoffs
| these days seem to be 1.8V, 3.3V, and 5V right? 3-cells and
| targeting 3.3V + charging from a USB (at 5V) seems like the
| most obvious cutoff to me personally.
| lmilcin wrote:
| Newer STM32 lines go as far down as 1.7V. Or they would if
| I was able to find other chips (notably Bluetooth) that
| would suit me and could pull the same trick. As it stands,
| the circuit can work down to ~1.85V which is still quite
| comfortable with two cells.
|
| I admit there is no particular reason to use 2 cells where
| I could use 3 (they would still fit comfortably inside
| keyboard enclosure). The only reason is vanity -- I hope it
| will look sexier to other EEs:)
|
| I dislike built in cells. I like ability to just change
| batteries rather than have to plug in to charge. Nothing
| worse than a peripheral like headphones that you have to
| stop using just because charge ran out. Why do I need to
| finish my couch session just because my keyboard can't take
| a simple AA battery or two? Seems like completely
| unnecessary nuisance.
|
| Also, if you are talking about cell voltage, you need to
| remember they loose voltage very quickly upon discharging
| and most of the discharging happens at much lower than max
| voltage. For NiMh you really want to make sure that your
| circuit works with at least 1.2V per cell (as an absolute
| minimum, in perfect conditions of room temperature and very
| low discharge). Any higher than that and you aren't
| actually discharging the cells properly and are not using
| their capacity.
|
| If your circuit works in short bursts of high current or
| can be used outdoors, be prepared that the voltage can drop
| very quickly especially when the cell is older (has been
| through a lot of cycles).
| jandrese wrote:
| Most of my remotes are still using the batteries they shipped
| with. It's hard to make the case for replacing batteries when
| the originals last 15+ years (and counting).
| Gigachad wrote:
| A youtuber I watch recently made the case that NiMH batteries
| should be used for _all_ uses because alkaline batteries will
| eventually burst and spew acid over your electronics. Sounds
| like it could take a very long time to do that, but it makes
| sense just for the preservation of the device to use NiMH.
| divbzero wrote:
| I finally switched to Duracell's rechargeable NiMH batteries
| last year and won't be going back to alkaline. They work well
| even for things like flashlights that need low self-discharge,
| and I no longer feel like I'm creating waste every time I burn
| through a battery.
|
| I also came across some rechargeable lithium batteries packaged
| in 1.5V AAA, AA, C, D form factors, but they appeared to be
| newer and I was unsure about long-term reliability.
| piyh wrote:
| The only thing I keep disposable batteries for is my key code
| door lock
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| +1 for introducing me to the B&K 8600. It never occurred to me to
| search for a DC load device. I've been building FET-based loads
| and using a power supply to calibrate them. /smacks forehead/
| This is what you miss when you don't get to work with
| professionals on your hobbies (i.e., building low power IoT
| sensors for funsies).
| symby wrote:
| Not included in this analysis is leakage rate... by which I mean
| ooze leakage.
|
| I have found that some batteries have a much greater likelihood
| of leaking ooze than others (yeah Rayovak, I'm looking at you!)
|
| Except in the case of crappy toys, the damage that this causes
| radically outstrips the cost of the battery.
|
| As a result, I buy batteries not based on electrical performance,
| but track record in not ruining the things I put them into. I am
| very happy to accept 50% less energy if I can avoid destroying my
| $200 gadget.
| mitchbob wrote:
| > As a result, I buy batteries not based on electrical
| performance, but track record in not ruining the things I put
| them into.
|
| So do I. I'm now using low self-discharge NiMH batteries
| (mostly Eneloops) in pretty much every device that uses
| batteries, and I've never had one leak. I also use smart
| chargers to check battery health when I recharge them. A bit
| more initial outlay, but much cheaper in the long run, as the
| batteries can be recharged 1000s of times, and they hold their
| charge for many months.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Does anyone know of a good rechargeable battery comparison test?
| I've noticed that some 18650's are just crap after a couple
| charges, and some dinky AA batteries last forever after many
| charges.
| SomewhatLikely wrote:
| Project Farm has a video with tests:
| https://youtu.be/-jXQNY6rve8
| arendtio wrote:
| I am very happy with my Eneloops. I used Ansmanns before (and
| still use the Ansmann recharge device), but they died after
| like 20 cycles (note: those Ansmanns were models from before
| the low-self-discharge era).
|
| The Eneloops are 3 years old and still work fine while being
| used every day (recharge about once per week).
| 0cVlTeIATBs wrote:
| https://lygte-info.dk is a good site.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Amazon Basics low-self-discharge batteries are fine.
|
| Eneloop if you want to avoid giving Amazon money and don't mind
| paying more for the brand.
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