[HN Gopher] Woob: Web Outside of Browsers
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Woob: Web Outside of Browsers
        
       Author : pcr910303
       Score  : 216 points
       Date   : 2022-01-14 15:36 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (woob.tech)
 (TXT) w3m dump (woob.tech)
        
       | thih9 wrote:
       | I've been playing with it, but I keep running into errors. E.g.:
       | 
       | in woob-weather, with weather.com backend, I've been getting
       | "Error(weather): 401 Client Error: Unauthorized";
       | 
       | in woob-gallery, with imgur backend, when I attempt to download
       | an image the module crashes with "FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No
       | such file or directory: ''"
       | 
       | I like the idea though and I'll keep trying further.
       | 
       | ---
       | 
       | Update: I resolved the image-gallery problem by specifying the
       | foldername (so: using "download ID 1 foldername" instead of
       | "download ID"). BUT: it looks like I'm unable to download text
       | descriptions that sometimes accompany the images.
        
       | vmception wrote:
       | Reading the linked site and some of the discussion, I highly
       | recommend finding your nearest Chinese friend or person and
       | getting authorized on Wechat. Its a whole parallel other
       | internet! Kinda similar to how a private set of Facebook pages
       | are otherwise inaccessible with an account, except in a parellel
       | reality where people use them for all business and have no other
       | internet presence.
       | 
       | Yes, as a user another government gets to read your posts, but I
       | mean yet another.
       | 
       | To get on, I literally just knocked on a few doors in San
       | Francisco and got authorized, so many people here can too. You
       | could probably do it at a park.
       | 
       | Note: Hong Kong citizens cannot do it for US citizens even I was
       | trying. Has to be a mainland Chinese person.
        
         | vorpalhex wrote:
         | Weibo is a heavily censored and manipulated platform. The CCP
         | uses it to track dissidents abroad.
         | 
         | Do not install or operate on any trusted device. Do not connect
         | to your home network. Do not store personal details on your
         | weibo device. Do not ever send sensitive information or talk to
         | real contacts on Weibo.
        
           | vmception wrote:
           | As you know, it is not possible to separate corporate China
           | from government China due to the structure of that system so
           | no analogy exactly works, but our day to day experience is
           | exceedingly similar as we rely on heavily censored and
           | manipulated private platforms. Although we retain options to
           | express ideas, there is not enough saturation of other people
           | to view those ideas except to participate on heavily censored
           | platforms and risk complete deplatforming. Its an almost
           | daily topic here, for example.
           | 
           | So the user experience on a Chinese service is simply not
           | different _enough_ for me to treat it differently.
        
             | vorpalhex wrote:
             | I'm someone who is heavily critical of Facebook and
             | Twitter.
             | 
             | However there is a world of difference between sloppily
             | shutting down vaccine or election misinformation, and
             | actively censoring a Tennis star reporting a sexual assault
             | by a politiburo member.
             | 
             | There is a world of difference between taking down shit
             | talking politicians twitter profiles, and actively
             | censoring the genocide of an ethnic minority.
             | 
             | Ads that slurp up personal data are bad. Threatening
             | political dissidents abroad directly is incomparable.
             | 
             | To say "well they are all the same bad" is to be willfully
             | blind to the basic facts.
             | 
             | [1] - https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/0
             | 3/what-...
             | 
             | [2] - https://www.thecut.com/2021/12/the-disappearance-of-
             | peng-shu...
        
               | vmception wrote:
               | > To say "well they are all the same bad" is to be
               | willfully blind to the basic facts.
               | 
               | Haha I'm not saying that, I'm saying it has nothing to do
               | with my participation in those platforms because I know
               | what to expect and my lack of participation changes
               | nothing.
               | 
               | My words are the user experience is not different enough.
               | 
               | For everyone else, check out that great robust example of
               | a web outside of browsers.
        
         | nope96 wrote:
         | Wouldn't a person need to understand Chinese? or is wechat
         | English?
        
           | vmception wrote:
           | The settings will be in English and there are pages and chat
           | rooms you can find. It is mostly Mandarin though. If you are
           | in any particular niche you might be able to follow since the
           | memes and reactions are familiar. You can also chat with
           | other people in English if they know it, some of your friends
           | probably already uploaded your contact info there so when you
           | make an account you'll be connected with them even if you
           | dont share access to your contacts - just like how Facebook
           | and most other social apps work.
        
       | brutal_chaos_ wrote:
       | This is clever and fantastic. I have been pondering a similar
       | concept recently and I think I would like to contribute. I'm
       | curious as to why LGPL-3 was chosen as the license, though, not
       | that the license is a show stopper.
        
         | Zababa wrote:
         | One explanation might be that the project is mostly French, and
         | the GPL/LGPL seems more popular in France than in the USA.
        
       | Ajedi32 wrote:
       | Wow! I actually love the idea of being able to interact with
       | websites via a standard API rather being forced to use web-based
       | UI they provide. It opens up a whole lot of possibles for things
       | like alternate clients, standard UIs for interacting across
       | multiple sites, etc. Also eliminates the possibility of sites
       | engaging in annoying or abusive behavior by putting users in full
       | control of the client rather than the site operator. Obviously it
       | can't work for _every_ site, but it 's quite the interesting
       | concept.
        
         | rpastuszak wrote:
         | In a way you're describing how browsers should work.
         | 
         | > Also eliminates the possibility of sites engaging in annoying
         | or abusive behavior by putting users in full control of the
         | client rather than the site operator. Obviously it can't work
         | for every site, but it's quite the interesting concept.
         | 
         | That's the job of the User Agent after all, acting on behalf of
         | the user.
        
         | sys_64738 wrote:
         | Isn't this just what Electron provides?
        
         | clone1018 wrote:
         | I've had two ideas related to this in the past that I've always
         | wanted to prototype:
         | 
         | - A social media website without a frontend. We just provide a
         | fully exposed API and Oauth, and devs can create their own
         | client to interact with the social network. This would give
         | devs the freedom to create their own experiences without
         | locking users into one specific way of using the social
         | network.
         | 
         | - "Cloud" content hosting as a service. You'd be able to build
         | your own frontend for interacting with a website / blog, and
         | then include our JS code and your site's content will
         | automatically be populated in. This would keep the frontend
         | clean, simple, and cheap, while offloading posts, comments, and
         | other advanced functionality to the service.
         | 
         | Of course both are purely experimental ideas, with no potential
         | real world meaning :D
        
           | andrewfromx wrote:
           | this sounds perfect for https://www.deso.org/ social network
           | code
        
           | rglullis wrote:
           | > A social media website without a frontend. We just provide
           | a fully exposed API and Oauth,
           | 
           | Take CouchDB and store all activities as ActivityStreams
           | documents.
           | 
           | > "Cloud" content hosting as a service.
           | 
           | "Headless CMS" is the term you are looking for, and it is
           | already a big industry https://jamstack.org/headless-cms/
        
           | mxuribe wrote:
           | For your first idea around social media, while not 100%
           | exactly what you cited, the fediverse sort of already
           | provides for that...Well, specifically the ActivityPub
           | protocol (and couple of other protocols) enable such
           | functionality...and frankly there are numerous (yes, not just
           | 1 or 2, but numerous) server implementation which further
           | enable numerous desktop and mobile clients to interact with
           | content...all federated/sort of decentralized. If you've
           | heard of mastodon, then they tend to capture most of the
           | mindshare, but there are many other servers and clients...and
           | there are reportedly millions of people on the fediverse
           | around the world...so we're sort of already where you would
           | like to be. ;-)
           | 
           | I'm sure there are many sites which help provide better
           | context for the fediverse, but here, check this one out:
           | https://fediverse.party/en/fediverse
           | 
           | Cheers!
        
           | thecakefive wrote:
           | For the social media part that existed; see
           | https://socialize.dmonn.ch/
           | 
           | It has fallen out of fashion tho.
        
         | smt88 wrote:
         | > _I actually love the idea of being able to interact with
         | websites via a standard API rather being forced to use web-
         | based UI they provide._
         | 
         | For a while, people were pitching this as Web 2.0. It's also
         | what RSS and podcasts still are.
         | 
         | Unfortunately, most of the websites we visit are revenue-
         | generating and want to control their presentation.
        
           | vannevar wrote:
           | Right. There are all kinds of great services that could be
           | built on top of other peoples' web sites, but most sites want
           | to own the relationship with their customer directly. And
           | most of the great ideas for mashup services are predicated on
           | the idea that the mashup will get most of the revenue, which
           | is not going to fly with the underlying value providers. In
           | an ad-supported web world, those who own the eyeballs call
           | the shots.
        
             | anderspitman wrote:
             | It's a tricky problem. I just have to believe there's a way
             | we can make the world work without ads at all. They're just
             | gross. But I have no idea how that could happen.
        
           | Ajedi32 wrote:
           | > most of the websites we visit are revenue-generating and
           | want to control their presentation
           | 
           | This project seems designed to work even _without_ the
           | cooperation of the sites you 're interacting with; all the
           | site-specific modules are maintained by the community.
           | Adversarial interoperability at its finest.
           | 
           | In extreme cases, one could imagine a module running a full
           | headless browser on the back-end, pretending to be a user
           | scrolling around and clicking stuff, while presenting the
           | actual user with a clean front-end.
        
         | onion2k wrote:
         | _I actually love the idea of being able to interact with
         | websites via a standard API rather being forced to use web-
         | based UI they provide._
         | 
         | That's what HTTP is. You're free to write a client that isn't a
         | browser that sends and receives the same API messages as any
         | HTTP client app does. Most people use browsers, but there's
         | also things like iOS and Android apps that consume the same
         | APIs as browsers, or Postman that directly communicates with
         | the APIs, etc.
         | 
         | The APIs that sit in top of HTTP are even sort of standardized
         | in the sense that HTTP verbs mean the same everywhere (in
         | theory, but some devs get it wrong.)
         | 
         | Thr only hard bit that no one has really solved in a nice way
         | is how you discover the APIs in the first place. There's things
         | like WSDL but it's horrible.
        
       | 0x445442 wrote:
       | Believe it or not, around the turn of the century there were many
       | thick client apps. But back then it was a challenge to ship and
       | update these applications. This pain, along with the continued
       | rollout of broadband led many to advocate for creating
       | applications that would run in a web browser while being
       | controlled on centralized servers. In practice, turning the
       | platform that was designed to render markup text into an
       | application host. This would allow applications to be shipped and
       | updated with little interaction from the user.
       | 
       | However, right about the same time web apps were taking over the
       | world there were thick client apps that were solving the problems
       | of installation and and updates. Two of the prominent thick
       | client applications doing this were iTunes and the browsers
       | themselves.
       | 
       | Now fast forward a decade to the early teens and the ubiquitous
       | use of smart phones. What is the single largest determining
       | factor of platform success? Is it the ability for web apps to
       | render on your platform's web browser or is it the breadth and
       | depth of your platform's app store?
       | 
       | My rant is over, I wish web apps would die. I've wished that for
       | most of the 21st century.
        
       | mahastore wrote:
       | Good example of another solution without a problem.
        
         | mkdirp wrote:
         | Really? You ever tried automating your own data from e.g. your
         | bank? Cos I have, and it's a lot more annoying that it should
         | be.
         | 
         | Woob does a lot more than just banks. It allows you to get any
         | of your data. Adding additional providers is piss easy too.
        
       | matheusmoreira wrote:
       | This is so cool. A custom client for websites. Essentially a web
       | scraper with a GUI on top. You can define your own user
       | experience instead of accepting what they designed for you.
        
       | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
       | This is.... bizarre. And I like it?
       | 
       | At first I thought this was like an API to integrate web content
       | into your own apps. But now it looks more like Groupware, in the
       | sense that Woob is actually your user interface and there are
       | just modules to consume content from random websites.
       | 
       | It goes back to the old idea where you would have one dedicated
       | desktop application for each thing you wanted to do on the
       | internet, like read news, send mail, listen to music, view a
       | calendar... turning your computer into a utilitarian appliance.
       | Rather than a portal for businesses to spend a lot of time and
       | money building their own dedicated user interfaces to lock you
       | in. The latter has made life more difficult, where we have to
       | constantly learn every business's new interface, there's always
       | competition between missing features, and the dedicated UI (or
       | platform) becomes a way for the business to squeeze more out of
       | the user.
       | 
       | And there are no ads. I just realized there's an entire
       | generation who have never seen technology without advertisements.
       | I wonder what they'd make of this.
        
         | NavinF wrote:
         | Re: that last part. We're probably thinking of different
         | generations, but I agree. Demographics from a random unreliable
         | source:                  Age vs ad blocker usage (female, male)
         | 16-24 43.2%, 49.2%        25-34 43.0%, 47.6%        35-44
         | 38.4%, 44.8%        45-54 33.5%, 39.1%        55-65 32.1%,
         | 37.3%
         | 
         | Those poor boomers. They grew up watching ads on every cable
         | television channel and now they watch ads on every YouTube
         | video.
        
           | jessaustin wrote:
           | Let's not waste sympathy on the boomers...
        
             | CodeGlitch wrote:
             | Ageism at it's finest.
        
       | kodablah wrote:
       | I think a version of this is what the internet needs but using
       | headless browsers from the client and with a somewhat-centrally
       | curated set of scraper "recipes" if you will. Basically a
       | community curated/updated set of scraper logic per site (yes some
       | trust is required) that essentially provides JSON data and/or
       | APIs based on the site. Even just a neutered HTML equivalent of
       | sites (e.g. amp w/out the Google and ads stuff) would be good.
       | 
       | Since it is all client side, it can be dubbed a "browser" not a
       | "scraper" and one might hope popularity is high enough that
       | active blocking of it is blatantly user hostile. Granted one
       | hopes that, like EasyList and uBO and others have shown, the
       | community can outpace site owners. Not appearing headless
       | (tunneling captchas, literal mousemove events in pseudo-random
       | human-like ways, etc) should be doable.
       | 
       | It's something I have thought about and once dubbed "recapitate"
       | (https://github.com/cretz/software-ideas/issues/82) and plan to
       | revisit. I have seen many versions of this attempted. We need to
       | encourage shared data extraction tools.
        
       | pjerem wrote:
       | Interesting to see Woob here. Most of the modules are for french
       | environment (banks, dating websites, job boards ...). I always
       | liked the irreverence of the module's names and logos (which are
       | authentic MS Paint piece of work).
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | Unless my brain isn't parsing it right, that dating icon is
         | both funny and NSFW.
        
           | soheil wrote:
           | aum or happn?
        
         | zeeZ wrote:
         | My first guess was this had something to do with legal
         | nonsense, and I guess I was right:
         | 
         | > If provided, icons are preferred to be parodic or humorous in
         | nature for legal reasons, however there are no restrictions on
         | the quality or style of humor.
         | 
         | https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
        
           | pjerem wrote:
           | Yes, but I think they are, also, just for making fun of some
           | brands.
           | 
           | Because, also a fun fact : this project changed its name
           | recently, it was called Weboob before: https://weboob.org
        
             | userbinator wrote:
             | I remember weboob, and all the amusing names of the various
             | pieces. Unfortunate that the (French) humour was killed by
             | political correctness.
        
               | awrmc wrote:
               | Are you suggesting "political correctness" is the only
               | reason someone might be discouraged from installing a
               | program named after toilet humor and juvenile references
               | to specific parts of the anatomy? I've let my kids watch
               | plenty of children's movies with fart jokes in them, but
               | I still don't want to hear more of that when I'm trying
               | to use a tool to access a banking service. It seems
               | there's even still a banking module with a crude poop
               | icon: https://woob.tech/applications/bank.html
               | 
               | Doesn't really inspire confidence in their
               | professionalism or trustworthiness with handling
               | financial transactions, if you ask me.
        
               | Vosporos wrote:
               | Je suis francaise et cet humour etait vraiment merdique
        
               | littlestymaar wrote:
               | It's not "political correctness" which killed the humor,
               | in fact the humor was there by accident and at the
               | beginning the creator of the project found that funny, so
               | it stuck for a while
               | 
               | > When weboob was started in 2010, 11 years ago, the name
               | was chosen, without a hidden agenda, since as a French
               | speaker, "boob" wasn't part of my vocabulary.
               | 
               | > Following its release and the ensuing reactions, during
               | its first years, the project was complemented with
               | various provocative elements (icons, application names,
               | English slurs in the code). This was done with the sole
               | motive that at that time, it was seen as "fun".
               | 
               | But when the project gained traction he realized that the
               | name was probably not appropriate for people building
               | business apps with it, which he wanted to support.
               | 
               | > But in practice, it's been years the project isn't
               | following this approach anymore, it's used as an
               | essential building block of professional companies, the
               | provocative elements are progressively removed, and the
               | professionnalisation[sic] question is being raised.
               | 
               | Source: Weboob will become woob - https://lists.symlink.m
               | e/pipermail/weboob/2021-February/0016...
        
             | throwaway744678 wrote:
             | The 6th contributor's (nick)name, can be translated to
             | something like "Fuckthewhores", with a play on words with
             | Belzebuth
        
             | Hackbraten wrote:
             | Good on them. I really disliked the old name.
        
       | smm11 wrote:
       | France just can't shake the Minitel, that's for sure.
        
         | beders wrote:
         | was thinking the same thing ;)
        
       | res0nat0r wrote:
       | Also: woob - 1994 is one of the best ambient albums ever made.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S3owK3pN64
        
       | jokethrowaway wrote:
       | This is great. In my ideal world all the web should be like this.
        
       | togaen wrote:
       | but... why
        
       | btrettel wrote:
       | A while back I heard about Z39.50 [0], a protocol that libraries
       | use for their catalogs. In the 90s it seems there were native
       | clients for the protocol so that one could interact with the
       | library catalog without using a web interface. A lot of the
       | current web interfaces are terribly slow JS monstrosities now so
       | I'd like to try something faster.
       | 
       | I never did figure out if any of the GUI clients [1] are still
       | actively developed and I'd appreciate if anyone who knows about
       | this could point me towards a good client.
       | 
       | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z39.50
       | 
       | [1] Some software listed here:
       | http://www.loc.gov/z3950/agency/resources/software.html
        
         | librarianscott wrote:
         | The most well-known Z39.50 using software that still works is a
         | paid citation manager called EndNote (the desktop client not
         | the web client). You can ingest PDFs with that software too. I
         | don't think the open-source Zotero has added that feature yet.
         | Z39.50 is clunky, and our old LMS (library management software,
         | used behind the scenes) can pull in MARC records for our staff
         | when we order books, but I don't even want to think about the
         | security.
        
       | kadomony wrote:
       | Woobs out
        
       | anderspitman wrote:
       | Something I've been thinking about lately is how browsers have
       | essentially become a dependency for any sort of auth on the
       | internet. Pretty much everything uses OAuth2, which requires you
       | to be able to render HTML and CSS, and in many implementations
       | JavaScript.
       | 
       | That's ~20M (Firefox) to ~30M (Chromium) lines of code as a
       | dependency for your application, just for auth. This applies even
       | if you have a slick CLI app like rclone. If you want to connect
       | it to Google drive you still need a browser to do the OAuth2
       | flow. All of this just so we have a safe, known location to stash
       | auth cookies.
       | 
       | It would be sweet if there was a lightweight protocol where you
       | could lay out a basic consent UI (maybe with a simple JSON
       | format) that can be rendered outside the browser. Then you need a
       | way to connect to a central trusted cookie store. You could still
       | redirect to a separate app, but it wouldn't need to be nearly as
       | complicated as a browser.
        
       | notorandit wrote:
       | I do exactly the other way around on my smartphone: if there is a
       | web app i won't install the app.
        
       | pavlov wrote:
       | It's like a peek at an alternative Internet where Gopher won
       | instead of WWW.
        
         | mxuribe wrote:
         | There has been a desire to go back to older days where text was
         | more prevalent, and so Gemini has begin and is gaining
         | popularity - though I'm sure very slowly. See:
         | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/
         | 
         | Also, separately (though i wouild not be surprised if
         | frequented by same/similar folks who have interets in Gemini),
         | there is also the tildeverse...again, more text-heavy
         | environments. See: https://tildeverse.org/
         | 
         | And, as i have stated in another comment there is the fediverse
         | (e.g. Mastodon, pleroma, etc.), so the ability to leverage APIs
         | to interact with other folks and their content without
         | explicitly needing a typical web browser exists, and
         | flourishes.
         | 
         | I'll end by stating that there are a few exciting things - like
         | the above items i mention as well as this neat Woob platform -
         | which to me seem very fun, a little new, and yet at the same
         | time in some ways nostalgic...maybe they won't make the morning
         | news, and likely only attract geeks, but it is all still
         | exciting - at least for me!
        
           | Qub3d wrote:
           | The tildeverse looks pretty cool, but why does it redirect me
           | to a Rick Roll on Firefox?
           | 
           | I can see the normal site just fine on Lynx browser (maybe
           | that's the point?)
           | 
           | Edit: ah, I see, they're doing a JWZ and redirecting based on
           | referral, but going a step further and setting a cookie.
           | Cute, but also terribly immature.
        
             | mxuribe wrote:
             | Oops, sorry about that. I never had an issue before...but
             | funny after visiting HN, see exactly what you mean.
             | (Clearing the cookies avoids the classic rick roll video).
             | Anyway, yeah i guess the tilde folks are "characters". But,
             | separate of that, the community i've interacted with is
             | quite fun, respectful, and good-natured. I also failed to
             | mention a sort of equivalent to HN, which i frequent (with
             | similar topics to HN but often nicer crowd):
             | https://tildes.net/
             | 
             | ...Tilde.net used to be only open to invite not open to
             | anyone creating an account...so if interested - and still
             | not open to the public - i can trigger to send you an
             | invite.
        
       | louissan wrote:
       | woob woob woob! Battletech pulse lasers anyone?
        
       | diogenesjunior wrote:
       | Small discussion earlier:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935634
        
         | zepto wrote:
         | Smaller as in essentially zero, and with a link back to this
         | one.
         | 
         | An amusing detour.
        
       | dylan-m wrote:
       | I like the idea of this. There's so much _information_ on the
       | web, but we still need a way to bring that information to other
       | applications, without being tied to a particular source. That was
       | really the dream of the semantic web, after all.
       | 
       | This kind of idea would be really nicely paired with good
       | Microformats[1] support, which continues to be a very good idea.
       | That way we can find, say, a recipe or an address on a web page
       | in a reusable way and without needing magical heuristics.
       | 
       | (Of course, "reusable" in theory, with the caveat that everybody
       | forgot about microformats around when Google decided they could
       | machine learn their way out of everything).
       | 
       | [1] http://microformats.org
        
         | MaxBarraclough wrote:
         | > I like the idea of this. There's so much information on the
         | web, but we still need a way to bring that information to other
         | applications, without being tied to a particular source.
         | 
         | I'm not sure I'm interpreting you correctly here, but I think
         | I'm on the other side of this. The problem is that many modern
         | websites are godawful. I think the story pretty much ends
         | there. If websites were not awful, we wouldn't find ourselves
         | appalled by the idea of just embedding a browser.
         | 
         | Modern web browsers feature a 'reader mode' as a countermeasure
         | to that much modern web design is significantly worse than
         | having no web design at all.
         | 
         | If you're serious about a 'lightweight' alternative to the
         | lumbering horror-show of the modern web, the way forward is
         | either Gemini [0], or a formalised simple subset of HTML. [1]
         | 
         | > That way we can find, say, a recipe or an address on a web
         | page in a reusable way and without needing magical heuristics.
         | 
         | I think the _find_ and _reusable_ aspects here are really two
         | very different problems.
         | 
         | The _reusable_ part is easy. HTML is already reusable. A
         | standardised simple subset would be even more so. [1]
         | 
         | The _find_ part is trickier. Discovering decent content is
         | harder, as there 's an arms race of ad-funded spammers trying
         | to out-compete legitimate recipe sites in search-engine
         | rankings. (There's also the possibility of search engines not
         | being motivated to work on delivering good search results. [2])
         | 
         | The idea of having a choice between native GUI applications and
         | web apps, has been with us for some time. Email is probably the
         | best example, we've long had the choice between webmail and
         | native email clients. Beyond webmail, these days even Microsoft
         | Word has a web-based version. There are of course both
         | advantages and disadvantages to web-based applications.
         | 
         | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408
         | 
         | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392
         | 
         | [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29772136
        
           | Karrot_Kream wrote:
           | How do you know someone uses Gemini? They'll tell you the
           | moment they can! Like the vegans of the web...
        
           | jka wrote:
           | Also entirely possible that I'm misunderstanding both of you,
           | but I think what the parent comment was imagining was
           | something like common schemas (like schema.org[1]?) for
           | content that is currently around the web and encased in the
           | challenging web design you mention.
           | 
           | With common (and evolving) formats -- and incentives for
           | publishers to provide their information within those formats
           | -- we could then have much simpler, more streamlined tools to
           | use and remix that data in application-specific ways.
           | 
           | [1] - https://schema.org/docs/full.html
        
           | anderspitman wrote:
           | > Discovering decent content is harder, as there's an arms
           | race of ad-funded spammers trying to out-compete legitimate
           | recipe sites in search-engine rankings
           | 
           | I wonder if we even need the search engines? I think a lot of
           | the things we've come to rely on them for could easily be
           | handled in other ways. Recipes for example. You don't really
           | want the best recipe _page_ for a given dish. You want a good
           | quality recipe _site_ that has a recipe for that dish.
           | Quality of recipe sites ebb and flow as they sell out and
           | incentives change, but generally you would probably only need
           | to be aware of the top 2-3 sites. This is exactly the type of
           | information that is easily stored as  "tribal knowledge" on a
           | subreddit, forum sticky, community wiki, or even blasting out
           | to your Facebook friends "hey what's everyone's favorite
           | recipe site?"
        
         | dillondoyle wrote:
         | Funnily, Google has pushed websites to add more structured data
         | into their html for crawling..
         | 
         | Seems it's used for SEO hackinge. For instance on recipes why
         | wouldn't a site give their recipe a super high rating. Those
         | sites are awful SEO spam adservers basically.
         | 
         | But business info that can be used to map seems pretty valuable
         | to google.
         | 
         | https://developers.google.com/search/docs/advanced/structure...
        
         | hombre_fatal wrote:
         | One problem is that it takes a lot of work and effort to build
         | any of the valuable hubs where people post information.
         | 
         | Ever try to start a forum? It's a monumental task with no
         | guarantee of success. You may even need to employ people to
         | grow and maintain one.
         | 
         | And once you've finally grown one of these hubs that
         | accumulates recipes, lyrics, real estate listings, classifieds,
         | etc. (whatever you had in mind) there's no incentive to make it
         | as easy as possible to share it with the world. Once you get
         | over "ugh, everyone just wants to make a buck", there's the
         | fact that it wasn't free to build and maintain the platform to
         | begin with. And perhaps the only incentive to build the
         | platform was the idea that people would pay for the value.
         | 
         | Or, who is supposed to do the work of curating and organizing
         | all of this information and then producing an API so that
         | others can build on it, and why haven't they started? There are
         | probably some inconvenient truths in the answer beyond
         | cynicism.
        
           | anderspitman wrote:
           | Ha, I'm trying to start a data ownership forum now. My
           | approach has been to have it be a central place for support
           | for all my open source projects. We'll see how that works
           | out.
        
       | matthewaveryusa wrote:
       | This has Bloomberg terminal / minitel vibes. I think there's
       | definitely a space for an alternative browser that can render
       | guis with visually consistent widgets.
        
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