[HN Gopher] Tesla Model 3 Owner Discovers Car Was Delivered Miss... ___________________________________________________________________ Tesla Model 3 Owner Discovers Car Was Delivered Missing a Brake Pad Author : Syonyk Score : 174 points Date : 2022-01-15 20:07 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.thedrive.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.thedrive.com) | blinkingled wrote: | This is also a point against online ordering cars - if I can walk | into a car dealership, inspect and test drive the car before | committing to buying it, that helps everyone - I can have peace | of mind, dealership or manufacturer can fix identified defects | before putting the car out again and the process works - | manufacturer has incentives to ship as perfect a product as they | can considering the dealer is putting their money on the line, | Dealers can address minor defects in the pre delivery inspection | etc. | | None of that is possible with Tesla's model - they basically have | to get a car looking thing out the door as fast as they can, | there's no dealership to cross check and the customer is left | with the pieces or the option of waiting in the hope that next | one will be better. | driverdan wrote: | Many people order new cars from other companies because they're | not available on the lot. | | You could still refuse delivery. If I were buying a Tesla I'd | do a very thorough inspection of it before accepting it. | vkat wrote: | I did not buy my car from the dealership lot. They had to put | in an order and I waited 3 months for it to be finally | available for me to pick up. I could track everything happening | with the car. The car was sitting in the container port for an | usually long time (2 weeks) so when I asked my dealer he | tracked it down and said there was curb damage to the wheel and | they had to wait for replacement. | | Now, I don't expect this kind of service from Tesla but my | point is it doesn't matter if you are able to test drive it or | not from the dealership and inspect for defects; the | manufacturer should have a rigorous quality process that | doesn't let these kind of slip ups to happen and if it does | happen make it right by the customer. | blinkingled wrote: | > so when I asked my dealer he tracked it down and said there | was curb damage to the wheel and they had to wait for | replacement. | | So having a Dealer deal with it helped? As in they did the | inspection for you and got it fixed? It's practically | equivalent to buying off a lot if you think about it without | the extra step of you doing another inspection to catch what | the dealer might have missed. | | With Tesla it's between you ordering and the factory | shipping. No additional independent QC like the Dealership | and no chance to pre-inspect. | vkat wrote: | >So having a Dealer deal with it helped? As in they did the | inspection for you and got it fixed? | | No it wasn't the dealer that replaced the wheel but a | receiving port of the manufacturer in the east coast. | hnburnsy wrote: | GM issues 2012 Chevy Sonic recall for missing brake pads | | The new brake pad recall for the 2012 Chevrolet Sonic affects | 4,296 vehicles sold in the United States while another 577 were | sold in Canada, with all of the vehicles included in this recall | built between June 2nd, 2011 and November 21st, 2011 at GM's | Orion Township Assembly Plant just north of Detroit. On these | recalled 2012 Sonic hatchbacks and sedans, General Motors | believes that the vehicle could be missing either an inner or | outer brake pad on the front end. | | Https://www.torquenews.com/106/gm-issues-2012-chevy-sonic-recall- | missing-brake-pads | MBCook wrote: | Nothing in the article indicates that GM told the customer this | was normal or OK and that they didn't need to worry about it. | | That's the most egregious thing to me. | trulyme wrote: | Also: | | > ...but luckily, GM has caught the problem and is recalling | them right away...thus removing the safety risk and the cost | of repairing the problem from the owners. | | Quite different from the way Tesla is handling this. | KennyBlanken wrote: | The Sonic is also the car that had defective ignition switches | that led to numerous deaths because the engine would suddenly | shut off while driving, disabling the electric power | steering...and even worse, the airbag system would get disabled | and not work in an ensuing crash. | | In a civil suit a family's attorney found GM's supplier | dramatically changed the ignition switch, and GM claimed that | they had no idea why or that it even happened (which is | ludicrous to anyone even proximate to the auto industry. Any | time a part is revised, even slightly, it tends to get a part | number suffix.) | | Sonic's product manager claimed he had no knowledge of ignition | switch changes. "I put my own son in a Sonic" etc etc. | | Eventually the whole mess blew up to the point that Congress | got involved, subpoaenaed a battleship's worth of documents | from GM and...lo and behold, what comes out? Lots of emails | from the same Sonic product manager about the ignition switch. | | There was an NPR/APM/etc show episode about it...wish I could | remember which one. | sidcool wrote: | Has Tesla raised the bar of expectations so high that a mistakes | that most car makers have made multiple times are like | existential threats for Tesla? | aemreunal wrote: | I see a lot of "whataboutism" in the comments, mostly from people | who (for some reason) feel the need to defend Tesla. What's the | purpose of this? Criticizing a company or calling out their | mistake does not detract from it, it pushes them to get better in | fact. You can love something/someone and still recognize their | shortcomings. | | Other car manufacturers making a mistake does not justify Tesla's | mistake or their handling of the situation. We are supposed to | hold _all_ car manufacturers to the highest standards instead of | justifying Tesla 's mistake with someone else's. | cblconfederate wrote: | It could be some new friction-based regenerative braking, we ll | have to wait to hear from TSLA | fortran77 wrote: | Tesla never should have branded the "Model 3" a Tesla. It brings | the whole brand down. You can't have a "luxury brand" and have a | cheap model. | | They need to rebrand it the "Strive" or the "Dream" or the | "Yearn" and remove Tesla branding and have separate dealers. | speedgoose wrote: | To be honest Tesla is not a luxury brand. The old roadster | based on a lotus is far from the luxury world and while a model | s or x are very premium, it's not luxury level where being | overpriced is a feature. | Animats wrote: | It's amusing that Tesla now promises the car by Jan 19th, just | before the 30 days of most "lemon laws" kick in. | cromka wrote: | "(...) and finally request a video of the issue. | | Gillmore recorded the above video to send to her Tesla service | advisor, who claims multiple technicians listened to the video, | only to declare "the brakes sounded normal for a performance | Model 3." | | Watch the video. It's incomprehensible how could anyone who has | some experience with cars say that such sound, while breaking, is | normal. If I was Elon, I would seriously question whoever at | Tesla had said so. And by that, I mean, literally just fire them, | because, damn, how can one be so ignorant when it comes something | so crucial to safety? | justapassenger wrote: | > If I was Elon, I would seriously question whoever at Tesla | had said so. And by that, I mean, literally just fire them, | because, damn, how can one be so ignorant when it comes | something so crucial to safety? | | Elon is first one to blame for it. Sloppy quality and disregard | for safety issues that creates comes all the way down from | Elon. This problem is deeply rooted in the organization, that's | only optimizing for growth, at all costs. It's well known | Silicon Valley playbook. But it's not that great when you apply | it to the cars, not some random app. | Syonyk wrote: | Seriously. That's insanely obviously metal on metal, which | shouldn't be a sound you find in the brake system, especially | under what's clearly mild low speed braking. | | The next obvious question: If multiple people think that's | "normal for a performance Model 3," how many others are being | delivered without brake pads? | cromka wrote: | Yeah, on top of that, as someone pointed out in the comment | section on the page linked: | | "See that green dot on the top of the right picture? That is | an assembly inspection mark that someone put there at the | factory to indicate the caliper was 100% correct and | inspected. Guess that person is bad at their job." | jacquesm wrote: | That's two people bad at their job. Both the person that | assembled it _and_ the person that checked it. | | When you build a car you do it from very precisely | controlled sets of inventory, there is _no way_ that you | could build a car and have leftover parts and not know | which car they belonged to at any build step. | Syonyk wrote: | > _When you build a car you do it from very precisely | controlled sets of inventory..._ | | You _should_ do it from... | | Remember, Tesla's shtick for a while was to claim that | the legacy automakers were dumb dinosaurs who didn't know | code, and therefore Tesla would _show them_ by building | sonic velocity lights out dreadnaught factories where | there weren 't any tolerances at all, and... currently | builds cars on a line that's basically indistinguishable | from what everyone else uses. | | In throwing out everything the "dinosaurs" did, it's | entirely possible they threw out a range of useful things | as well like "The number of parts delivered equals the | number of vehicles to be built." | jacquesm wrote: | Fair enough, they might be building them from large | chunks of stock. Still, that would be a monumentally | stupid move, you could easily forget something even more | crucial like that, for instance a circlip on the steering | housing. That would be a real surprise, better hope you | have paid for self driving if that ever happens ;) | aunty_helen wrote: | I'm not sure about the performance model 3 and it's brake | pads but you can get performance break pads that sound like | that. Even ones that sqeak at low speed. | | Ferodo DS2500 if you want a set for yourself. Drive to the | track, track and home again without issues. | cromka wrote: | I just checked: https://youtu.be/-KNXvqmqNr0?t=30 | | To be honest, what I hear is a whistling sound, not metal | on metal - that kind of sound that instantly sends shivers | down your spine. | Syonyk wrote: | That's because they're doing the same things to the rotor | at low temperatures that a caliper does - just abrading | away rotor material to slow the car. Track pads are great | when hot, not so amazing when cold. Yes, I _know_ there are | plenty that claim to be able to do everything, but your | rotor life will suffer. | | However, it's not something one should expect from a | factory vehicle - and if you've installed higher | performance track pads yourself, you should be able to | determine if it's normal. Also, they'll sound the same from | all four corners - this sound just came from one corner. | rootusrootus wrote: | I ran DS2500s for years on my first STI. They would | resonate and make a squeal, but it wasn't at all the same | as metal-on-metal grinding from a worn out or missing brake | pad. | | Also, I don't recommend DS2500s on a street car. They're | intended to be a compromise pad that works on the street | and the track both, but the performance is significantly | worse when they're not heated up, so the first stop of the | day on a cool morning can be surprising. Better to get real | street pads and real track pads and swap them. It's super | easy on fixed caliper brakes. | aunty_helen wrote: | I ran the DS2500s for a couple years before shopping | around a bit to see what was out there. I settled on | custom made pads using a Mintex material which pn escapes | me now. | | I used some pretty decent brands and pads and found the | Forodos were the only ones that I couldn't get to fade in | the hills. Their friction coefficient starts at 50c so | it's definitely not unreasonable like actual race pads | that can start in the 125c+ range. | | I only ever found them a little suprising when they had | been hot hot and then the next morning it would take a | bit more of a press on the peddal to pull up and the stop | lights. I still always had confidence that if I stood on | it they would pull up in time. | | As for running propper race pads at the track, that's | fine and I had the same brembos you would've but | replacing the rotors I was using wasn't something I | wanted to shell out for every few track days. The Forodos | never had any fade issues on track and I have a picture | with the back wheels almost lifting as I brake from speed | cut. | mdoms wrote: | > I'm not sure about the performance model 3 and it's brake | pads but you can get performance break pads that sound like | that. Even ones that sqeak at low speed. | | No. If you don't know anything about cars please feel free | not to comment. Performance brakes can absolutely be noisy | but they ABSOLUTELY do not sound like metal scraping metal. | I have heard all kinds of performance brakes - carbon | brakes, high end drilled rotors with the hardest pads you | can imagine, everything. The most alarming sound you'll | hear from performance brakes is a nasty squeal. They DO NOT | sound like this. You are spreading misinformation. | aunty_helen wrote: | I used to get custom made pads for my car that I would | drive on the street and track. So yea thanks for your | concern. | | Sintered metal pads definitely sound like metal metal | contact at low speed and even more so when they've | recently been hot. | | Watch the video. It doesn't sound that bad and I can | understand the engineers but probably wouldn't expect | that much from a "performance model" | | Remember my BMW Martin, that ran pads that would make | horrible sounds. However the Integra and it's brembos | that used to take a beating a Ruapuna often sounded like | something you would want to pull over and check out. ;) | Rapzid wrote: | Wouldn't the Tesla itself know something was wrong with the | braking system based on the performance metrics it gathers?! | rootusrootus wrote: | As a former owner of a Model 3 Performance, I can almost | understand the comment -- as long as they didn't really | _listen_ to the video. The brakes on the P3D will develop an | unholy squeal after a couple weeks of driving around normally | using regen for braking. I developed my own routine of goosing | it on the last major road before my neighborhood so that I | could really use the friction brakes significantly, or I 'd | eventually find myself waking up the neighbors when backing out | of my driveway. | | I figured it was probably because the P3D gets fixed instead of | floating calipers, and fixed caliper brakes typically have some | quirks. Noises being the most obvious one. | Syonyk wrote: | I do much the same with our Volt - I have to slow down on a | downhill to get in our driveway, and when I've got the car | with nobody else in it, and nobody behind me, I build up some | speed then really get on the friction brakes hard to keep | them free and clean. If you never use the friction brakes, | they'll also tend to seize up after a while. | crowdwrench wrote: | Quick tip, you can do this much easier by shifting the Volt | into neutral and then braking. In D and L, the volt | actually produces very significant braking via regen via | the brake pedal, so much so that you'll have to really | brake hard to get any friction braking action. In neutral, | regen is turned off and all brake pedal travel is actually | physical brakes. You'll be able to clean off your brakes | once in a while with just casual easy braking if done in N. | Even if you keep your same procedure you use today, you'll | get more effect doing it in N. | Syonyk wrote: | I actually do it in N, because, yes, you're absolutely | right - it's wonderfully regen heavy. I cannot express | just how nice coming down a mountain grade is with the | Volt - put it in L, set cruise control to the recommended | speed, and... keep it in the lane. It just sits at at the | set speed and regens down without any drama whatsoever. | | Various states have assorted laws about being in neutral | on a public roadway, and while I don't feel it's a safety | issue in the Volt, it wasn't something I was going to | casually mention either. However, since it was brought | up... | erwincoumans wrote: | Just curious, you already replaced the Model 3 performance, | how long did you own it, and what car did you replace it with | (if any)? | | (I'm still happy with mine, but will check if my brake pads | are missing) | rootusrootus wrote: | I owned it 18 months. I sold it last year after it was | clear that I'd never be commuting again, it was sitting | unused for about 25 out of every 30 days. I now share a | family car with my wife, and bought myself a Porsche as my | fun car. | jacquesm wrote: | And now the piston will be damaged as well. | jacquesm wrote: | That's got to be a first. I've _never, ever_ heard of a critical | safety component not installed on a car while supposedly passing | QA. The first time you brake with that car you 'll know something | is off, so even if it wasn't detected in the factory (which | should be the case) it should have been detected by the shipping | process. | | Hm. Ok, point in Tesla's favor: who knows what dealers find in | terms of missing bits and pieces on cars they pass to customers. | But with direct-to-consumer there is no such middle man who has | their own reputation to uphold. | | Regardless, this should have never ever happened. | theshrike79 wrote: | I've said this multiple times and it still bears repeating. The | current EV race can be summed up to this: | | Can Tesla learn to build a car around their computer faster than | traditional car companies learn to add a computer in their car. | | So far the competition is neck and neck... | MauroIksem wrote: | I picked up my model 3 long range in december also and it was | also missing parts. Mine was missing USB ports in the center | console and the wireless charging pad for the phone. When i | questioned them about they tried to lie about it and said that my | phone was the problem. I demanded to speak to the manager who | admitted right away that the car was indeed missing a part and | that they would fix it later. My front bumper was also scratched | and missing paint. They fixed that by replacing the entire | bumper. Buying from them is a nightmare. | dawnerd wrote: | The missing usb was a post delivery fix for a lot of people due | to supply issues. You should have been alerted to this before | delivery. It sucks their service people don't care. I had to | argue about my wheels being completely curbed in delivery and | they insisted they weren't. Car sales/service people are all | the same it seems. | Syonyk wrote: | > _I demanded to speak to the manager who admitted right away | that the car was indeed missing a part and that they would fix | it later._ | | That sounds suspiciously like, "We were aware of that and were | hoping you wouldn't notice, but we can't get the parts. If we | promise to call you later, will you stop bothering us?" | hn8788 wrote: | It wasn't even just that dealership, it was every Model 3 | shipped during a certain time period. Back when it was | happening, there were posts about it on the Tesla subreddit. | Nobody was told their car wasn't going to have the features | they paid for, and Tesla blamed it on the chip shortage and | said they'd install the missing features once they had the | supplies. | erwincoumans wrote: | You would expect Tesla to make sure customers are well | informed about certain features are missing, and being | added when they become available. The missing USB was known | (due to unavailability). For missing brake pads, you hope | q&a catches that, and some electronic alert shows up if | brake pads are missing (or worn beyond being useful). | mkmk wrote: | I know somebody who had the exact same experience with their | usb ports on a different model Tesla. This is either a | recurring QA issue or a way to "deliver" cars despite supply | chain issues. | hotpotamus wrote: | > Buying from them is a nightmare. | | So what is it about the car that makes them so popular now? I | assume you could have refused to take it and they wouldn't be | bothered because they could just sell it to the next person to | walk in. Is it inherent to Tesla or is it just that all cars | are scarce now and hard to keep in stock. | speedgoose wrote: | > So what is it about the car that makes them so popular now? | | They are better cars overall. And you can actually buy them. | hn8788 wrote: | At this point I think the cars are popular because it's | considered a cool status symbol, not because it's any good. | I've got a co-worker who bought a Tesla and kept having | issues with it, but still bought a new Model S a couple of | weeks ago. It's already having electrical issues and other | false alarms popping up on the phone app. He still gushes | about how Tesla's are great cars, and how Musk is a genious | that is leading humanity into the future. | | It honestly reminds me of when I was in Iraq in the early | 2000s, and you'd see police chiefs and mayors with iphones. | The phones didn't work on the cell network, but they were | still highly sought after because it was an expensive piece | of technology that almost nobody there could afford. | vkou wrote: | > So what is it about the car that makes them so popular now? | | Marketing. | | > Is it inherent to Tesla or is it just that all cars are | scarce now and hard to keep in stock. | | Are you going to break a deal you invested so much into over | a missing USB port, phone charger, and a fucked up bumper? | Most people won't. They just want all that shit to be over | with, so that they can drive their car home. | fallingknife wrote: | Tesla is known for doing less marketing than any other car | company. | vkou wrote: | It does less traditional ads-on-search-results-and- | television marketing, it does its marketing through | submarine articles in a favorable press, and social | media. | | Elon Musk is also fundamentally incapable of staying | quiet for more than five minutes, and for various | reasons, has a large following of groupies, that do his | marketing for him. | ChrisClark wrote: | >So what is it about the car that makes them so popular now? | | Because the buying process is super simple and easy, you pick | what you want, buy it, no haggling. They get it ready, you | pick it up. | | The cars are rated the safest on the road, have the fewest | accidents per mile, practically no maintenance ever needing | to be done, maybe change the brake pads every 5-10 years, | battery will last 500k KM or more, autopilot is amazing, pre- | warm up the car in a closed garage, and more. | | I've never once had a problem in the past 3 years of owning | it, it's just a joy to have and drive. | | I even got an OTA update that tweaked the motors a bit and | gave me faster acceleration and increased range compared to | when I first picked it up, for free. | savant_penguin wrote: | If this was apple fanboys would say: | | "You know how much energy you save by not breaking?? Think of the | planet!" | | "If you need to break you're not using the car as intended!" (Rip | overheating macs) | zibzab wrote: | Given the horrible working conditions at Tesla, I am surprised we | haven't seen far worse things yet. | maxdo wrote: | t0mas88 wrote: | > So much drama from a missing part due to covid. Almost every | car manufacture is facing it. | | It's not the wait time for a part that's the most ridiculous | thing here. It's that they sold the car with a key component of | the brake system missing. And then when the customer complained | they made things 10x worse by claiming it was all normal. No | other car maker did this. | dymk wrote: | The drama isn't because of a parts shortage, it's that Tesla | forgot to install brakes on this car. If you don't have break | pads, don't deliver the car back to the owner. | maxdo wrote: | Yes, Evil Elon ordered to deliver cars with 3 brakes. It's a | single incident. This happening with every car brands. | Including luxury ones. Use google if you don't believe. If | there will be a part, this article would not exists. | Larrikin wrote: | How much are you invested in Tesla, so that you're willing | to vigorously argue for and justify delivering a car that | is missing brakes in multiple comments. Elon fanboyism | doesn't make sense in this case. | vkou wrote: | The three-week waiting period to install a break pad once the | issue was identified is a parts shortage. It hearkens back to | Soviet auto manufacturers. | | For obvious reasons, Soviet central planners wanted to get | cars into the hands of consumers. For obvious reasons, Soviet | auto manufacturers were driven to get as many cars into the | hands of consumers as they could. | | The obvious outcome of this incentive was that the | manufacturers had zero interest in shipping any spare/repair | parts for any of their vehicles. Why ship parts, when you can | ship cars instead? Nobody at the politburo is going to give | you a pat on the head for supporting aftermarket auto | repairs... | swarnie wrote: | > So much drama from a missing part due to covid. Almost every | car manufacture is facing it. | | Wait, what? | | Every other company is dealing with shortage by not sending out | incomplete cars missing vital parts, like the brake. | maxdo wrote: | Yeah, how about Ford sold 10000 Mach-E cars without putting | proper glue for the roof? | dillondoyle wrote: | But this is a critical missing part. Safety too. When Ford or | Toyota are missing critical parts, they don't sell the car. | maxdo wrote: | They do, you just don't read about one bad car incident. 1 | millions BMW recalled with a risk of fire, youtube "BMW on | fire". Is catching on fire is a basic safety part? | yellow_lead wrote: | > Since Tesla no longer has a media relations department, The | Drive was unable to reach out to the automaker for comment. | | This makes them look really unprofessional, despite how cool Elon | thinks it is. | KennyBlanken wrote: | It's not a matter of being cool. It's a matter of going next- | level with "no comment." | | Tesla has some bad PR, the press can't get anything out of | Tesla so the story is dead out the door, and Telsa's PR team | comes up with some stupid stunt to get social media trending on | the stunt...problem solved. "Oh, you see that thing about | Tesla?" is about their cars blinking their headlights to | Christmas music, and not, say, the feds ramping up their | investigation into Teslas slamming into roadside emergency | vehicles. | | Standard corporate "disaster management" is essentially "hide | everyone, don't say a fucking word, wait to get out of the news | cycle." | maxdo wrote: | Whether you liked tesla or not, they been on a constant attack | by traditional media. Every single miss do of tesla is | amplified 1000 times, like their stocks. BMW recalled almost 1 | millions cars due to risk of fire? Put on youtube "BMW on Fire" | they still catching on fire. My friend jumped out of the BMW | car in 3 rd lane of 6 lane highway, almost died. Did you see | any bad press about it? | | So basically tesla had two ways, try to buy more of this media, | or don't feed the troll. I think it's smart to just ignore | corruption. | draw_down wrote: | mattacular wrote: | Once you understand that Tesla exists to sell EV tax credits and | hold a massively overinflated stock valuation based on | ...apparently nothing... and so therefore making cars is actually | far down their list of priorities stuff like this should not come | as a surprise. | | These vehicles are objectively bad: Poor design and even poorer | manufacturing. Every one I've seen up close in person has | numerous exterior fit and finish problems. The interiors feel | very very cheap for a vehicle in their price range. They catch | fire. They don't work well in extreme weather. Bumpers fall off | randomly. If you think these sorts of problems don't extend to | the mechanical and software components, well, I've got a Tesla to | sell you. | cs702 wrote: | A more accurate headline would be: | | "Tesla Model 3 owner _claims_ car was delivered missing a brake | pad " | | ...because the only evidence we've seen so far comes from the | owner, and Tesla has not yet had a chance to investigate what | happened and provide the media with an official response. All | messages, photos, and videos I've seen are from the owner. | | If this is Tesla's fault, _shame on the company_. But we don 't | know for sure yet, and given how much hatred is directed at the | company (and Musk, in particular) we have to consider the | possibility that this could be: (a) a rare case involving unusual | circumstances for a single vehicle out of a few million sold to | date, or (b) a malicious hit job. | | I, for one, will keep an open mind, waiting to pass judgment | until there's more information about what actually happened here. | asciimov wrote: | Either way, it shouldn't take Tesla more than 3 working days to | remedy this situation. Breakpads are a common vehicle | consumable that should be available at every dealership. The | rotor and a caliper should also be common enough that they | could be overnighted or second day shipped. The work itself is | simple enough that any shop tech could accomplish in under 2 | hours (even the new guys that just change oil). | albertopv wrote: | Shit can happen (this is a bad one though), how it is managed | makes quite a difference. | | 9 years ago my father bought a new Mercedes B-class. Having been | a truck driver for decades, he knows how to look at details. When | he got the car he discovered front wheels brakes where different, | on each wheel there was a different type of brake(I don't exactly | recall the issue). Obviously he didn't accepted the car, Mercedes | gave him a temporary car and repaired the new B-class at no cost. | Syonyk wrote: | I've been critical of Tesla before for various reasons, "Building | throwaway cars" being one, and people keep insisting that, no, | really, this year, Tesla has fixed their problems and such. | | If you can deliver a car without a brake pad, that speaks to epic | quality control failures (EDIT: A comment in the article points | out the green "quality control" mark that is obvious on the | caliper, which _should_ indicate that everything was assembled | properly - so things are seriously broken if it can be assembled | wrong _and then have a QC mark applied while still being entirely | wrong_ ). I cannot imagine Honda or Toyota shipping a car without | a brake pad. I can't imagine Ford or GM doing it either. I'd be | down into the "Uh... I think I've heard of you once..." non- | western car manufacturers before it wouldn't surprise me. | | Then, the absolutely horrid service center experience of "Oh, no, | you don't know what you're talking about, that's normal, and we | can't fix it any time soon anyway" is just absurd. | | I know Tesla likes to rag on the horrors of the dealership model, | but, seriously, I can't imagine getting this treatment with a | legacy automaker. Not that I worry about them forgetting to put | pieces in, either. | oxplot wrote: | Tade0 wrote: | > I can't imagine getting this treatment with a legacy | automaker. | | I can. My friend drives a 2016 VW Touareg which he got used - I | was present during the purchase and the previous owner told us | that the coolant needs to be topped off from time to time - | nothing big, but he said that the authorized service center | shrugged this off as something they won't bother fixing. | Syonyk wrote: | How much, and how far apart? | | There's a difference between "half a cup or so ever few | months" and "I have to carry coolant around with me." The | reserve tank will comfortably make up the first in any | reasonable driving situation, the second is a problem. | | Water pumps not weeping a tiny bit is a rather new innovation | in cars. They typically use coolant to lubricate the seal, | and some will get through. | KennyBlanken wrote: | I don't know of a single car made in the last 10 years | where it's normal to lose "half a cup over every few | months." Every car I or my family have owned in the last | thirty years has never needed coolant added to it over | _years_ of ownership. | | Water pumps "weeping" coolant is a sign of failed seal, not | by design. | | The GP commenter's buddy was sold a car by someone who was | trying to pass off a needed repair; likely a leaking | radiator or failing head gasket if they were unlucky. If | they were lucky: a bad radiator cap or a failing coolant | system hose. | | If they were really, really unlucky: a failing heater core. | aaroninsf wrote: | First thought, | | on the rare occasions we have car shopped, VW was removed | from the list (along with e.g. Jeep) because of what appeared | to be continually poor QA and reliability. Led us to give up | on the idea of trying to go biodiesel (dodged a bullet | there...). | | But Tesla seems to have a really remarkable problem. | foepys wrote: | I cannot confirm VWs being unreliable. My family drives 4 | 18+ year old VWs (3 Golf, 1 Passat), all Diesel with | 150,000+ km (2 with 300,000+ km) on them. Not a single | rusty part, all on their first clutches (one is pulling | trailers regularly), and only a single one needs a cup of | oil every 1,000 km. | | Maybe the VW plants in America are different but my family | in Germany will buy VW (or Skoda/Seat) again when the cars | give up eventually. Just this time no Diesel. | cromka wrote: | > biodiesel | | Out of curiosity, what's wrong with that? | jahewson wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scanda | l | selimthegrim wrote: | Gunks up the emissions equipment | jacquesm wrote: | Interesting. So, to counter that, I've driven VW for many | years in many different models on ridiculous mileage and | never had a single issue with them. | | This was until about 2008 when I switched to Mercedes, | those too were pretty reliable until the last one, which | was a recent vintage C class. Now I drive an oldie (25 this | january). | VBprogrammer wrote: | German cars have a weird reputation as being unreliable | in the US. Which seems strange as a European where they | generally have a pretty good reputation, maybe not as | good as the Japanese brands but not a million miles away. | | I think the difference is likely just that the average | backstreet garage knows all the faults on a 2005 VW Jetta | and how to fix them, they have the right diagnostic | equipment to plug them in and read the fault codes etc. | | In the US I suspect they'd be the same with most GM / | Ford / Honda cars of the same era but would think twice | about touching a VW or Mercedes. | deycallmeajay wrote: | Kind of a big difference between getting the car from the | factory and getting it used. | blinkingled wrote: | Also missing brake pad out of factory line is colossally | bad QA compared to hard design and metallurgy issues that | cause softer piston rings after 100k miles or gaskets that | leak coolant after 50k . | | Yeah but Tesla fans will defend bad stuff by pointing out | not so great stuff from the competitors. In that respect | you can say they're just like Apple fans. | jacquesm wrote: | A brand new car vs a used car which has been through who | knows what kind of stuff between delivery and the factory, a | slow coolant leak (which could be anything from a bad clamp, | ripped hose or a serious engine problem) vs a missing safety | critical component of which there are 8 on every vehicle so | having one 'left over' from a build set just shouldn't ever | happen. | | These things are not comparable. | sandoze wrote: | Ditto. I have a 2010 Prius that burns oil. The dealer told me | it's a known issue at 100k miles. Offered to sell me a used | engine with 70k miles to fix it.. Problem was he admitted | there was a pretty good chance at 100k+ miles the oil burn | would come back on the replacement. | | No recall, just a 'known' defect. Oh, and because they know | my car has a defect they made it clear that my trade in value | would suffer if I wanted to upgrade to their latest and | greatest model. | eganist wrote: | not the same as a car leaving the factory without a | brakepad. | | not even in the same ballpark. | | not even on the same continent, for that matter. | warning26 wrote: | I agree that this is emblematic of Tesla's terrible QC, but | your second point about how traditional auto dealerships would | mitigate it strikes me as questionable. | | Being sold a "lemon" has been possible for years, even with the | traditional dealership model; that's why so many US states have | "lemon laws" specifically to deal with that scenario. | KennyBlanken wrote: | Dealerships are both a completely separate legal entity from | the manufacturer _and_ they have a very strong interest in | not handing over a defective car to the customer because they | 're closes to the customer. | | They are also required to conduct what's called a PDI - Pre | Delivery Inspection - before the customer sees or touches the | car. | | The car is prepped for sale, and this includes a number of | things. Sometimes cars have spacers installed in the | suspension. Someone plugs in a diagnostic tool and tells the | car's control modules that the car is no longer being | stored/shipped, so it can enable all the stuff slowly drains | the battery like memory settings, keyless ignition RF | transmission, alarm sensors, etc. There's also a cosmetic | inspection, where any defects in the paint are taken care of | by the dealer's in-house detailing/car prep staff. | | A big part of the PDI is going over everything safety related | and making sure that nothing happened to the car as part of | it being shipped. That includes a test-drive. Usually half an | hour or so at a variety of speeds, where the test-driver | makes sure every single part works. | | I assure you, the person doing the PDI would notice a missing | brake pad, even if the dealership mechanic who does the | mechanical PDI somehow missed "there's a brake pad completely | missing." | jacquesm wrote: | Yes, but a lemon is a car that is unreliable due to | intermittent issues, not a missing part in a safety critical | system that should have resulted in a 'stop the line, we have | an excess brake pad at the end of our shift', followed by an | inspection of all vehicles built on that shift _and_ a | serious upgrade of QA processes. Really, this stinks. | shalmanese wrote: | Perhaps the reason why is because there's another Tesla | driving around right now with two brake pads. | MobiusHorizons wrote: | In a disk break setup (which is what this Tesla has) | there is a caliper with slots for two break pads on each | wheel. So with 4 wheels that would be 8 break pads. The | caliper squeezes the pads on both sides of the rotor | (which is turns with the wheel) in order to slow down. | This is why having one left over (or just an odd number | left over) is a red flag. You can't put two many in, | there is no reasonable way to make that mistake, but you | could leave one out, so it makes sense to check for that | mistake. | mark-r wrote: | This is why Toyota's Five Whys is so genius. Not only do | you find out why there's an extra brake pad at the end of | the shift, but you discover why you didn't catch it during | the manufacturing process, and how it happened in the first | place. | ajross wrote: | > Yes, but a lemon is a car that is unreliable due to | intermittent issues | | Actually it's a term of some precision, and that's not it. | "Lemon" laws define the problem as a car with an inherent | defect that can't be fixed by the manufacturer or dealer | within some reasonable amount of time (often "three | attempts", depending on statute). The purpose of the law is | that consumers shouldn't be on the hook for expensive but | faulty products. | | This isn't a lemon by any of those laws. They fixed the | brakes and the car is fine now. It's fine to make | pronouncements about Quality Culture or whatever, but lemon | statutes aren't really at issue here. | pdonis wrote: | _> They fixed the brakes and the car is fine now._ | | Did they? The latest status I get from the article is | that the ETA was pushed back again to January 19. | sharkweek wrote: | Me and my partner bought our first brand new car (2017 | Highlander for the curious) a few years ago after being a | used car family for so long. Had a lot of mediocre service | with used cars, but nothing to write a nasty online review | about or anything. | | Gotta say, with the new car and its full warranty, we have | felt like kings in comparison to past experience. Anytime we | need any amount of maintenance we get an appointment and then | whatever it is is fixed free of charge. | | Maybe we got lucky, but the dealership has definitely | delivered on its promise of complete warranty coverage. | | I know many consider buying a new car some kind of financial | cardinal sin, but I'm sold on it now. | atdrummond wrote: | Right now the economics of the used car market are so poor | that buying new is a better play, assuming you can find the | vehicle you want. | metadat wrote: | Have you verified this personally? | | Out of curiosity (and fear), I looked up used 2007 | Highlander this morning on SFBay Craigslist, and there | was plenty of inventory and they looked like a reasonable | bargain, around $6-10k for one with relatively low miles | considering they are 16 years old. | | Maybe prices at dealerships are way up? Or people want | newer cars and those are crazy expensive? | | I am certain my friend who just paid way too much for a | newer used Toyota is a moron in such matters. | atdrummond wrote: | It's possible things have changed in the last few months | but I ended up going with a new hybrid recently (October | in the Bay Area) when I couldn't find anything reasonably | priced in the 2-5 year old market I would normally play | in. I wasn't looking over a decade old but the prices you | describe still sound higher than what models like that | were going for pre-pandemic. | mark-r wrote: | It's the chip shortage. The demand for new cars is | greater than the supply because of supply constraints, so | it spills over to the used car market. Prices in the used | market go up until supply and demand are balanced again. | technothrasher wrote: | Yes, I think you're looking at cars so far back that the | prices, while still elevated, aren't quite as bad as more | recent used cars. I just ordered a new car for myself (my | old car was recently totaled by a deer strike) and had to | pay MSRP, because nobody is offering any discounts. That | probably means I paid $1500-$2000 more than I would have | a few years ago when I could negotiate a deal. | Alternatively, on my wife's 2018 car that was coming off | lease, I just bought it out for $27K, while on the open | market the car is currently worth about $40K. So we're | looking at $13K overpriced on the used car vs $2K | overpriced on the new one. Still doesn't quite make up | the "drive off the lot depreciation" of a new car, but it | gets pretty close. | metadat wrote: | It's not a sin, just do what works for you! People have | highly variable approaches to the financial side of big | ticket items. | | Highlanders have always been good to me, I've heard of them | lasting to 500-600k miles without major problems and still | work fine. | | Since I drive about 5k miles per year, I'm hoping mine will | last me 80 more years. That's reasonable, right? :P | mdoms wrote: | This has absolutely nothing to do with "lemon" vehicles which | are vehicles that run into ongoing or repeated problems. This | is one single issue that any mechanic worth his overalls can | (and frequently does) solve in a 2 hour job (and that's | assuming something goes wrong). | | Inability to supply and fit a part that is literally designed | to wear out is unacceptable. | mark-r wrote: | These cars are new enough that they haven't likely needed | new brake pads. With regenerative braking, the pads don't | get much use and they last a lot longer than you're used | to. That would explain why the pads aren't an in-stock | item. | serf wrote: | I did pre-delivery inspections on vehicles for many years at | an automotive dealership. | | one of the numerous things I had to do was test drive every | single vehicle. | | Yes a dealership would have caught this issue before the | customer -- absolutely. | [deleted] | idop wrote: | Cutting corners is how these so called "tech companies" disrupt | markets. They remove all the bloat; the bloat being safeguards | and processes created through years of experience and | evolution. And we flock to them, praising them for "showing the | traditional companies how it's done". But sooner or later the | cracks start to form. The random driver picking you up from | that app turns out to be a rapist. That house you found at that | other app turns out to be falling apart and you die. That shiny | new car turns out to have had zero quality control and is | dangerous to drive. | | So they have to make changes. They have to introduce the same | safeguards that have been standard in their respective | industries for decades. They have to raise prices. And before | you know it, the only thing that separates them from the | traditional companies is that stupid app. | drzaiusapelord wrote: | Bloat also being unionized workers who are incentivized to | stay, gain wisdom and skills, and mentor new hires as opposed | to the "everyone is fungible, everyone is abusable" worker | conditions Elon seems to create. | | Also this war on lidar, yet we're seeing these cars crash | into trucks and walls, which lidar would have prevented, but | lidar costs money, and as such "is bloat." Bloat is anything | that keeps Elon and his shareholders from enriching | themselves to the maximum degree, and if that means customers | have to deal with safety issues, well too bad. The Elon PR | machine smooths it over for via marketing efforts and deep | ties to corporate media that will sing your song for a price. | Life goes on, except for the person killed in the car. | chx wrote: | Well yes and no. | | The app is not always stupid. I can't say I am fond of Uber | and its business practices but in Vancouver at least the taxi | apps are lacking some vital features Uber have -- despite | Uber operating briefly in Vancouver in 2012 so it was clear | they will be back and indeed in 2020 Uber/Lyft indeed | started. Features include easy changing of pickup point which | is quite important in the warren of one way streets where I | live -- as I see where the car is approaching from, I can | easily walk like 1-2 minutes to the next corner to save like | five minutes (seriously) of driving around after pickup. Also | it works with GPS coordinates -- when I meet with friends | it's often at a beach on the weekend and public transit is a | bit lacking so I prefer calling a cab/uber and it's | practically impossible with cabs because those want a street | address, even the app. And then there's the ability to safely | communicate with the driver -- and this only needs wifi which | makes airport pickups so much easier because I only need | airport wifi. Taxi companies couldn't build these features in | _eight years_. Pound sand. | idop wrote: | That's true, the apps are sometimes good and they do make | certain things easier and more accessible than traditional | solutions. I know I didn't mention it explicitly, but the | "stupid app" was actually me venting my anger over the | rampant, unnecessary tracking and snooping that these apps | do. | Syonyk wrote: | > _the rampant, unnecessary tracking and snooping that | these apps do._ | | It's none of those, at least to them. It's literally | their business model, and how they extract the behavioral | surplus to turn into huge profits. And as very few people | are aware of how it works, and why they should opt out, | it's become the new default way of doing "tech | companies." Extract all the stuff, process all the stuff, | sell all the predictions from the stuff. | | It's not an accident that every new app seems to be | trying to collect as much as they possibly can. You're | not even the product - you're just the field of raw | material they're trying to collect and process. | | Unfortunately, the only answer I can come up with to | object is to opt out of all those systems, which leaves | me a bit lacking in some areas. | Andys wrote: | As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need | repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more | with comparitively little maintenance. | | The throwaway effect can an does happen to any ICE vehicle | easily, when the engine is not economic to repair. We should | have laws covering all types and brands of vehicles to make | them more repairable, but ultimately this should be easier with | electric (recycling batteries in bulk is cheaper than mining | more lithium) | BoorishBears wrote: | > As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need | repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more | with comparitively little maintenance. | | Can you point to a case of this? | | Literally written yesterday: https://jalopnik.com/one-tesla- | model-s-has-gone-nearly-1-mil... | | > One Tesla Model S Has Gone Nearly 1 Million Miles And | Needed Some Major Repairs | | > The owner, Hansjorg von Gemmingen-Hornberg says the car is | on at least its third battery. The first was replaced under | warranty at about 180,000 miles. The second was replaced | after about 93,000 additional miles before the third battery | was installed. So far, the Model S has done more than 621,000 | miles on that third battery. | | >That isn't all. The car also needed four drive motors to | reach over 900,000 miles. The P85 has only one drive motor on | the real axle. That means three different drive motors have | failed. | | - | | An out of warranty battery replacement is 20k or so and drive | motor replacement is about 10k, so I think it's safe to say | we're talking about the equivalent cost in drivetrain | replacements to what? 4 engines or 5 engines in an ICE? | Assuming a rather expensive engine since the Model S is | technically a luxury car? | | Not really doing any better than an ICE: | https://www.thedrive.com/news/27940/2000-honda-accord- | with-o... | | (Note all of their engine replacements combined would cost | less in CO2 and money than a single DU swap on the Model S) | | Here's one with no replacements at all: | https://www.thedrive.com/news/29982/this-2006-honda-civic- | hi... | | And another with none: https://www.metrostlouis.org/news- | release/second-metro-trans... | | There's more if you want to look. | | - | | Technically you can drag most modern ICEs (or any vehicle for | that matter) along to a million miles, but different cars are | more or less likely to make it without major issues. | | Tesla is not who I'm expecting to make the most million mile | worthy EV. EVs are not some magical land compared to every | other product in existence: Chasing new hotness so ruthlessly | you consider model years an undue burden is not a recipe for | a long-term reliable car. | | The EVs that will do 1 million miles without major work (at | the very least not needing entire drive units) will come from | "boring" companies with "boring" designs. | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | An ICE vehicle can last 15+ years. Even more in a benign | environment. Tesla doesn't make anything that will last that | long. | DenseComet wrote: | Isn't that a function of being an EV rather than an ICE? I'd | expect an EV from any of the traditional automakers to also | require comparatively little maintenance. | Syonyk wrote: | > _As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't | need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or | more with comparitively little maintenance._ | | It was a reference to an old post of mine | (https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building- | throwawa...) - and, I actually agree with you that they do | have million-mile grade drivetrains. | | It's just that the rest of the car is poor quality. That's | fine if it's cheap and easy to fix, but it's _not._ You can | 't get the parts, you can't install the parts if you can get | them because they have to be paired with the car, and, in | general, they're like a lot of modern ICEs that fall apart | around a running drivetrain. Except worse, because they're | luxury cars and you can't even do the repair work yourself. | jahewson wrote: | > Not that I worry about them forgetting to put pieces in, | either. | | Google suggests that you should: | | https://www.google.com/search?q=missing+brake+pad+recall | userbinator wrote: | That looks like, aside from the few Tesla results, exactly | _one_ model of Chevy was affected, and they decided to recall | them. A missing brake pad is pretty damn obvious, and I 'm | almost willing to bet that, unlike Tesla, they didn't ignore | or make excuses to the people who complained about the | strange sound. This "assume the user is completely stupid and | we're always right" mentality seems to entirely come from the | tech industry. | AnthonyMouse wrote: | joezydeco wrote: | https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna54596 | | "General Motors knew about a defect in its ignition | switches eight years ago and changed the design of an | internal part, but never told federal regulators or the | drivers of its cars, according to evidence from a recent | lawsuit filed by the parents of a Georgia woman who died in | a 2010 GM car crash" | otterley wrote: | Usually, manufacture or design defects are hidden to the | end customer. The car was built to spec, but the spec was | wrong; or the part supplier supplied a non-obvious faulty | part. It's not like an obvious safety-related part is | entirely missing. | | This is a very different kind of problem than leaving out | a brake pad. It'd be like delivering a vehicle without a | seat belt or airbag. | | At any rate, nobody is saying that other car | manufacturers don't screw up. They just screw up most | frequently. in non-obvious ways today instead of patently | simple ones. | | Finally, "what about this other company/person" arguments | aren't HN-caliber. They're not logically sound, and are | best left at the door. | AnthonyMouse wrote: | It's not that nobody writes the story, it's that nobody | sees the story. | jolux wrote: | Nah this was all over the news. I heard about it. | Everyone I know heard about it, especially if they're | into cars. See also Toyota's infamous sticky accelerator | recall, or the Takata airbag recall. | | The difference is that Tesla didn't have a near-perfect | history of shipping reliable vehicles for decades before | screwing up like this the way Toyota did. Tesla's | reputation is slowly being formed by failures such as | these. I already know several people who have elected to | get a Mach-E instead of a Tesla because of concerns about | quality. If they don't improve they're going to be seen | (rather aptly) like the Lotus of electric cars in a few | years: beautiful, powerful shitboxes that nobody wants to | have to rely on as a daily driver. | specto wrote: | Who's fault is that? It's still news.... | ra7 wrote: | So the car company with the most hype attracts the most | attention? I don't see what the issue is. | darksaints wrote: | You were just linked to a google search full of press | reports about a missing brake pad recall, and the entire | front page was results about GM, and your response is that | the press is silent as long as it's not Tesla? Seriously? | judge2020 wrote: | Especially because Tesla is considered some new popular | tech company, the media is focusing on them a lot more | compared to traditional automakers. There are hundreds of | recalls a year[0], and yes, there are articles on most of | them, but it's all in an attempt to capture SEO for | 'recalls for <year make model>' and thus low-visibility; | but any time the 'Apple of Cars' issues a recall, it | turns into a reuters article and thus 10 other | publications publish a story on it, where it continues to | spread like wildfire. | | All recalls are warranted, even when done voluntarily for | small manufacturing issues, but you can't deny that | articles about Teslas having issues are guaranteed to | generate more clicks and thus more ad revenue than one | about some years-old Ford or GM vehicle. | | 0: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/ | 2020_n... | otterley wrote: | If Elon Musk wasn't such an asshole, he probably wouldn't | attract extra attention in the first place. (Yet note | that there is no quantitative evidence presented here | that Tesla gets more attention than other manufacturers | when defects arise.) | | People often make their own problems by making outrageous | claims in the first place. | keewee7 wrote: | >You were just linked to a google search full of press | reports about a missing brake pad recall | | I disagree with GP that the press is harsh on Tesla. | | However mainstream media write about everything but most | of it has been deeply buried into their websites and will | only be read by a few thousand people. | | The actual narratives the media is pushing are the | stories you find on their frontpages and being pushed on | their social media accounts. These are the stories that | will be read by millions of people. | 2muchcoffeeman wrote: | This seems like one of those things where a tech guy thinks | he can just come in and "disrupt things" and mistakes are | made because they never bothered to look at what the | incumbents were doing and why. | | The thing you are missing is also the frequency of | mistakes, consistency in the vehicles in general, how well | they manage the problem to fix it, and the number of | defects relative to vehicles on the road. This entire | article sounds like Google or Amazon level Don't-Give-A- | Shit about the customer applied to cars. And some of their | mistakes are mind boggling: | | https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely- | roo... | | https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-owner-details- | quali... "The main issue they have is a lack of | consistency," Nelson said. "I could have rejected the | delivery for not meeting my own quality standards, but a | new car could take weeks or even months and I'd just be | throwing the dice again. The next car could be in even | worse shape." | | Thanks for getting the ball rolling Tesla, but I'll be | waiting for the Japanese to perfect it before going | electric. | halfmatthalfcat wrote: | Electric is a paradigm shift. What makes you think ICE | manufacturers will _ever_ be able to catch Tesla? | kristjansson wrote: | I'll await Teslas recall of all units possibly affected by | this issue | AnthonyMouse wrote: | Goalposts wherever you like. | | Is there even any evidence that there are any other units | affected by this issue? | kristjansson wrote: | One instance is evidence their process failed at least | once. At a minimum they need to identify the process | failure and the cars the could have been affected, and | issue a recall or TSB to verify none of those cars are | missing brake pads. | bch wrote: | > Is there even any evidence that there are any other | units affected by this issue? | | If their QC is that broken, aren't the cars that passed | through it suspect? | | Edit: within a proper timeframe window. | jolux wrote: | It's not about the dealership model, it's about taking quality | seriously and not just slapping things together and pushing | them out the door with minimal QC like a software startup in a | tight market. It's clear by now that Elon thinks it's more | important to ship more cars than to ship quality cars, and he | may be correct, but he also has yet to prove that he is | actually capable of the latter. | afarrell wrote: | Elon's job isn't to make sure that the cars actually have | brake pads. Elon's job is to ensure he's hiring leaders who | won't repeatedly use racial slurs for the people whose jobs | are to make sure the cars actually have brake pads. | | https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58807212 | tessierashpool wrote: | yeah, this is within Tesla's normal QC parameters. they've had | roofs fall off, they've had cars catch fire while parked, they | even had a car which caught fire while self-driving in the | middle of the night with nobody in it. | | just goofy bullshit. the discussion in this thread will end up | on Elon sooner or later, but the thing to realize is that Tesla | the company needs it that way. | | electric vehicles will definitely replace the ICE, but Tesla's | not going to be Google when that happens. it'll be Alta Vista | or even Minitel. buying one of these cars is just a much bigger | QC gamble than it shoild be. | ajross wrote: | > they even had a car which caught fire while self-driving in | the middle of the night with nobody in it. | | You realize that turned out to be a stunt, right? The car was | a brand new plaid owned by a hedge fund manager who turned | out to be heavily short TSLA. It was seized by his lawyers | and never inspected for what the fault might have been. And | the "driving itself on fire" story changed several times over | the first 24 hours. | | One of the weirdest things about buying one of these things | and suddenly finding myself in the culture/counterculture war | over the brand is how suspect so much of the coverage is. | solarkraft wrote: | Actually the Google comparison fits quite well. They also | frequently deliver sub-par software while still having an | over-all hard to beat ecosystem. | foepys wrote: | The only reason why Tesla hates dealerships is because they | don't want to pay them, full stop. All those horrors can also | happen without dealerships, see above. | | Tesla wants people to pay the sticker price without being able | to haggle and wants to keep all the profits for itself. | | VW can deliver EVs for a similar price even with a dealership | network. Although, they also started to block haggling by | demanding customers to place their orders online via their car | configurator. As long as you sell it as innovation, people will | jump on it, even if this innovation is costing them more money. | fallingknife wrote: | You think haggling is going to come out in your favor? The | dealership does it every day. | foepys wrote: | If that's the case, why should auto makers now demand you | pay sticker price? Public companies don't do anything in | your favor, ever. It's always because they think that they | can now extract even more money from you. | VBprogrammer wrote: | At the moment it's hard enough to get hold of a car even if | you walk in with the money to pay for it. As such, haggling | is unlikely to work. At other times when the dealers are | desperate to make a specific quota a good deal is more | likely. | Retric wrote: | Because clearly all the people working at a dealership plus | all the capital tied up in a dealership has no economic | downsides. | | It turns out dealerships don't extract equivalent money from | every customer. It's not about haggling skills it's simply a | question of leverage on the part of a dealership. If they | both have plenty of inventory and know you're happy to walk | somewhere else then they will take their thin slice of the | transaction and move on. If however inventory is tight or | your unlikely to walk then prepared to get screwed. | | It's not even about credit or haggling skills, plenty of | seriously up market dealerships for exotics financially screw | their customers on a regular basis. | KennyBlanken wrote: | The dealership system is to provide assurance to the buyer | that a corporate entity under the authority of the state's | regulators and law enforcement officers but also available | to sell parts, perform warranty service, and repair the | vehicle. | | A dealer being willing to sell a company's cars serves as | some assurance that the car manufacturer is stable, | reputable, etc. | | This all came into being during the big automotive industry | boom in the 20's when car frames/powertrains were made by | manufacturers and then a "coachworks" company would put a | body on that..and both powertrain and coachwork companies | were often in business just long enough to get some cars | out the door before customers discovered poor workmanship, | assemblies not designed to be repaired, non-standard | fastener sizes and so on. It was common for people to buy a | car, drive it home several states away (in an age where | there was no interstate highway system!) and discover that | their car was falling apart. | | Oh hey, what does Tesla have problems with? Poor parts | availability, warranty issues, long waits for repairs... | | I wish I were exaggerating when I say Tesla was telling | Model S owners that water getting inside the main drive | unit (which contains not just the electric motor but the | motor's power electronics) because of a faulty seal on a | speed sensor _was the customer 's fault because they drove | the car in heavy rain_. | | There is little distinguishing Elon Musk from the shysters | in the 1920's that all these pesky regulations were written | to address. | bfung wrote: | Any reference materials / history on car dealerships and | how they're part of the ecosystem? | | When I was writing software for dealership stocking (19 | years ago now), it was pretty clear to me that there's no | good reason dealerships exist, as states could also make | laws that covered the manufacturer. | | It made sense when manufacturers didn't know how to scale | out end consumer services, like marketing, financing, | repair, etc. But now in the 2000s and 2020s, all the | manufacturers have their own distribution and financing | arm as well. | | It turns out that people want to buy from manufacturers: | "it's a Ford dealership", "it's a Toyota dealership" as | opposed to "it's bfung's cars". The extra indirection and | separation of legal entities actually make a worse user | experience. | | In addition, to be able to use the manufacturer's brand, | the dealerships new car pricing are all subject to the | manufacturer, so no arbitrage opportunities can be made, | except for getting suckers. The incentives of the | dealership has skewed toward pushing services and used | cars as that's where they make money now. | judge2020 wrote: | For reference, here's the markups dealerships have put on | the F150 lightning's MSRP to make some extra cash. | | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQQEE | 7Pk... (from reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehi | cles/comments/rm7v8j/ev... ) | eptcyka wrote: | VW is a bad example because their EV lineup is full of | horribly inefficient cars with pathological infotainment | systems. And, from the looks of them, it seems like the | bespoke EV platform is a vague rehash of an existing ICE | platform given how the extra space an EV platform could allow | for isn't being utilized. | | Have no illusions though, I wouldn't buy a tesla either. | gnicholas wrote: | Can you explain more about how their EVs are inefficient? | Do you mean miles traveled per charge time, or something | else? | nebula8804 wrote: | Sounds like he has been watching Sandy Munro who has | complained about the VW ID 4 not being up to par with | Tesla in terms of efficient design. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zu46ojkbo | eptcyka wrote: | I'll gladly eat my own words. I had seen some video | reviews of the ID.4 and the ID.3 on youtube complaining | about getting far less range than what was advertised, | but seemingly the advertised range and stated battery | capacities seem to indicate that the VW EVs are just as | efficient as Teslas are. | xyst wrote: | If other manufacturers adopt the direct to consumer model, they | need to take note of how bad TSLA has executed. What a terrible | customer experience. Then TSLA reps have the gall to gaslight | this person saying it's normal. | | TSLA as a speculative instrument for trading is fine. But I am | avoiding them as a consumer. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-01-15 23:00 UTC)